For our first Talkback, we welcome UAB Hospital chaplain, Suzanne Simmons, as she speaks on the topic – A Theology of Presence. Life is full of seasons of trials and challenge. So, how should we walk with people who are struggling? What if they aren’t Christians? What do we say when there isn’t anything to say? When do we avoid issues of suffering and when do we bring them up? What does a theology of presence even mean? Join us, as we explore these ideas and more with Suzanne Simmons.
For our first Talkback, we welcome UAB Hospital chaplain, Suzanne Simmons, as she speaks on the topic – A Theology of Presence. Life is full of seasons of trials and challenge. So, how should we walk with people who are struggling? What if they aren’t Christians? What do we say when there isn’t anything to […]
For our first Talkback, we welcome UAB Hospital chaplain, Suzanne Simmons, as she speaks on the topic – A Theology of Presence. Life is full of seasons of trials and challenge. So, how should we walk with people who are struggling? What if they aren’t Christians? What do we say when there isn’t anything to say? When do we avoid issues of suffering and when do we bring them up? What does a theology of presence even mean? Join us, as we explore these ideas and more with Suzanne Simmons.
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Welcome to Redeemer's 1st Theological Talkback of the summer. My name is Jeff. I'm one of the pastors at Redeemer. If you've not been to a TalkBack before, let me give a quick kind of snapshot. Get those shades out, people in this line of sun.
Jeffrey Heine:I really am seeing a lot of people with sunglasses on. That's awesome. So here's here's the breakdown for a talk back. There's an, about a 40, 45 minute talk that's going to happen, on a theological topic. Then we are gonna take a break, for about 5 minutes, to get a beverage, go to the restroom, think of an awesome question, and sit down, and then we're gonna have some q and a.
Jeffrey Heine:And so that that's our format. It's a pretty simple format, but I I hope that throughout the, Suzanne's talk, you're gonna be thinking of amazing questions and and have some, some wonderful back and forth after her talk. So I'll go ahead and answer introduce her now since you're standing right there. So Suzanne Goddard Simmons, is a a chaplain at UAB. She's been a chaplain there for the past 3 years.
Jeffrey Heine:Some of you might recognize her, and she might recognize some of you because you're around UAB a whole lot. But, the the topic that we're gonna be engaging tonight is a theology of of presence. What do what do we say when we don't know what to say? Or what do we say when there doesn't really seem to be anything to say? When we are caring for someone that's going through a difficult time, someone someone that's facing challenge, facing suffering, facing trials, how do we walk with someone, and what does it really take?
Jeffrey Heine:And so, Suzanne, and her husband, Jacob, somewhere back there, Suzanne and Jacob are at Shays Mountain Baptist Church where they are serving, and, and they've got a a young boy named John. He's about a year and a half old. He's he's not at the brewery tonight. He was here last night till really late. So oh, yeah.
Jeffrey Heine:He's at Big Boy, concert across the street. Anyway, if you will join with me in welcoming Suzanne.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Jeff. Hello. Good evening. It's so nice to be here with y'all this evening. It's an honor to be invited to come and speak to people that I don't know.
Speaker 2:I know some of you and I'm grateful for the invitation from Jeff and the Redeemer Community Church. I know the guys and ladies here that care for this flock, and I think very highly of them. So it's an honor to be here with y'all tonight. Thanks for having me. Jeff, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:So as Jeff said, I am a hospital chaplain at UAB. I've been doing that work for about 3 years. And you may you don't if you don't know me, then you don't know that it is incredibly ironic that my vocation involves the marrying of the medical profession and crisis, trauma, and suffering. If you had told 8 year old Suzanne that my adult work would involve walking the halls of a hospital and interacting with people who have tubes in their faces and who are maybe unconscious or have gotten a terrible diagnosis and wanna chat about that. 8 year old Suzanne would have been absolutely crushed.
Speaker 2:She would be devastated. So to to say that I had a very safe, secure, pretty charmed childhood is kind of an understatement. I there's really nothing that was predisposing me to this type of work. I, yeah, lived a pretty pretty comfortable little existence. And a while ago, in counseling, I was able to pinpoint that my first experience with crisis wait for it was my move to college at Samford University.
Speaker 2:Okay? So the poshest of situations, really. There was no, like, car accident on the way. There was no, like, bad roommate experience. Like, just the experience of itself of going to college was, like, the first time in my life that I could pinpoint a crisis.
Speaker 2:So it's not exactly like a pain inducing trauma that, you know, really shaped me or formed me. So I say all that to say that if you find yourself here tonight, cringing at the thought of stepping into painful situations and conversations with people, or you feel particularly ill equipped to talk with others in their pain and in their suffering, I want you to take heart. Because there is no prerequisite experience for you to be a compassionate presence with people who are hurting and suffering. My goal this evening is it's twofold. I I want us to help to I wanna to help us all see the accessible paths on which we can walk with others through pain and suffering, and see how the Christian faith prescribes this incarnational way of caring for each other.
Speaker 2:So in spite of being a self proclaimed scared person, I have found incredible fulfillment and satisfaction and a deeper connection with God in my experience of walking with others through pain and suffering. So tonight I've divided the lecture into 3 parts. The first part is why we're gonna look at why this type of of ministry and care for people is so challenging. The second part is we're gonna look at, a theology of presence, so looking throughout scripture, how God's, character is to draw near to people in relationship. And then 3rd and finally, we're gonna look at what what does it take to, better practice this spiritual discipline of walking with others through pain.
Speaker 2:So that being said, first one part part 1. We're looking at why is this so difficult. Pain is complicated, to say the least. Pain is everywhere. It's massive.
Speaker 2:It's, you can see it, and it's also invisible. Pain is pain and suffering is different for you than it is for me. It has no timeline. It has no parameters. Pain and suffering can last for a day.
Speaker 2:It can last for a decade. It's just very vast and complex. My guess is for as many people are here in this room, we could probably find that many different interpretations or understandings of exactly what pain is. For example, a broken relationship, a broken limb, cancer, depression, loss of an ability, of an independence, of a freedom, of a relationship, anxiety, death of a parent, a sibling, a spouse, a child, unemployment, broken dreams, loneliness, miscarriage, not enough money in the bank account, broken dreams. I already said that.
Speaker 2:Waiting, waiting for anything can cause pain. Children graduating, children not sleeping, aging parents with illness, difficult family dynamics, broken family relationships, etcetera, etcetera. So there are 100 along with each one of these scenarios, there are 100 of details and conversations and experiences that nuance this pain. Right? And situations that are really hard to talk about and really hard to explain.
Speaker 2:And if we have to put words to them, sometimes words fall short. And so it just kind of lives in our head, and it's difficult to even talk about. Understanding the pain of another person requires attention and compassion, which, if we're honest, is just completely exhausting. And so while this is obvious that pain is complicated, I I say all that. I start out tonight by saying that to help us to be more gracious with ourselves as we enter into this conversation, and also to be gracious with the people in our lives that are attempting to do this with us.
Speaker 2:Pain is complicated, and it's difficult to walk with somebody through it. 2nd, pain is subjective. At the hospital, it's not totally unusual for me in one call to go to a patient's room that has just experienced a trauma, is maybe in the ICU due to a car accident or that's just been life flighted to the hospital, to meet with that patient, to talk to their families, to kind of hear the full cert situation surrounding their circumstance. And then in the next 20 minutes to be in another part of the hospital interacting with a patient that's much less severe, that's conscious and talking, and is being admitted or being seen for just their persistent nausea. So in this situation, it's really challenging for me to not minimize the pain of the less severe patient based on what I've just witnessed down the hall.
Speaker 2:And this if I'm not aware of this tendency, my care will definitely be less sensitive and less attentive to the less critical patient. So each the subjectivity of pain makes it difficult to understand. Each experience of pain is different as different as the people walking through it. And the root of this challenge is that we want to make sense of a situation. Right?
Speaker 2:So in order for us to wrap our brains around what's going on, we compare it to something else that's either really like it or really different, and then we make a judgment based on that. So we have to be really aware of that, because the subjectivity of pain makes us want to kind of have a grade a grading scale in which how we treat people in how we treat people. 3rd, pain is emotional. Suffering brings emotions to the surface. And if we're honest, feelings are really hard.
Speaker 2:They're really, really hard. Emotions are hard enough for us when they're our own, not to mention when we are trying to understand and listen and, empathize with somebody else's emotions that are not ours, that can be downright exhausting. I get paid to do it, and I'm still exhausted at the end of a shift. But on the whole, there are some there's some social and cultural norms that kind of that kind of create this idea in us that emotions might just be better if they're kept calm. Right?
Speaker 2:I've found myself, even with catching myself with my 18 month old, whenever he falls and he pops up, and I can tell he's about to cry. And what do what do we parents say as soon as they pop up and we realize they're okay? It's okay. You're okay. You're okay.
Speaker 2:You're fine. You're fine, buddy. Okay. Keep going. And because I don't wanna deal with the the fallout.
Speaker 2:I don't wanna deal with the emotions. Once I know he's okay, I really don't want him to cry, and I really want him to just kinda pick things up and keep going. Because probably since the beginning of creation, parents have, like, hated meltdowns. And so we have created this, like, social structure around just, like, making sure we move very quickly through our emotions. Right?
Speaker 2:So there's that social norm, that's created that starts very early. Also, we we kind of create these structures around emotions that make some emotions good and some emotions bad, or some emotions positive and some emotions negative, which I won't get in that tonight, but that can have very negative consequences in adulthood. And so we have this reluctance about emotions. We we kind of are skeptical sometimes of them. We don't know how to trust them.
Speaker 2:We don't exactly know why people are feeling the things that they are, and that makes it difficult for us to to relate to them. And the the thing about pain is it is the furthest from neutral on emotions that we can be. Pain brings out the entire range of emotional responses, and it's different for every person. I've been in the hospital and seen the sorrow and pain of a family member that has just gotten word that they've lost a loved one, and their emotional response is loud and angry, and aggressive. And then I have also been with another patient with other patients who've just found out that they've lost a loved one, and the silence is deafening, because they have nothing to say, and they they are silent.
Speaker 2:And so emotions are pain brings out this full scope and range of emotions, and that is difficult. That's hard to know how to navigate. So why is it so difficult to walk through pain and suffering? Well, lots of reasons, but first, it's pain is complicated, pain is really subjective, and pain is emotional. There my I've found in my experience as a chaplain, when I talk to family members or friends, I I noticed when I started this work and I would start to tell people about my work and, explain what what a chaplain was and all of that, which I'm still wrapping my brain around.
Speaker 2:And, I I started getting these two responses almost every time I talk to somebody about this type of work. They would say something to the effect of, man, I I don't really know how you do that. I I would not know what to say. I would not know what to say to people. It just it wouldn't come to me.
Speaker 2:I would feel really awkward. Or equally as common was, but what do you do with the people? Like, what do you actually do in the room with people? And so when I first started getting these these questions or this reaction, I started actually trying to answer them. Like, well, so I go in the room, and I knock on the door, and I tell them my name, and I sit down on the chair, and sometimes I face them.
Speaker 2:And, you know, I started, like, actually playing it out, and then that felt really awkward and weird. And and and then I realized that was the response I kept getting, and it it I realized that that was a really insightful, picture of why it's difficult for us to enter into pain with people. And that is because when we enter into situations that we, that make us uncomfortable or, raise our anxiety, it's very common. It's a human instinct to have one of 2 responses. To say something, to speak it away, or to do something, to fix it.
Speaker 2:And if we cannot access one of those options, we feel paralyzed. And so tonight, I wanna offer a third offer a third alternative action to saying or doing in the midst of pain and suffering in someone else, and that is being present. That's the 3rd alternative that we're gonna talk about tonight, is being present. When I started working as a chaplain, there was this extensive year long training program, and I had to as I began serving as chaplain, there's a lot of things that I had to unlearn about how to interact with people and how to care for people. And the the training program is sort of based on this idea that you kinda get thrown into the deep end and just start doing the work, and then you come back and you begin reflecting on how you're doing and what you're doing.
Speaker 2:And so this is sort of a terrifying model that they're sending, you know, rookie chaplains out into the world to help people. So I apologize if you've been seen by any of us. But what I, realized about myself very early on is that I really struggled to believe this idea that my presence in a room was actually an aid to healing and not a hindrance to healing. So I would at the very beginning, I would go into these rooms. I'd get a page, and I'd go into a room just terrified.
Speaker 2:And I would very quickly, like, introduce myself and assess the situation and just pray that they would not ask me to do much and that, you know, the conversation would be pretty smooth and that I'd have something really kind to say. And then I might offer a quick prayer, and, like, I was out of there. And I struggled with not having a specific task to accomplish when I went into a room. And I figured that, man, me just being in there is gonna, like, make these people really nervous and anxious. Like, they're gonna they're gonna be like, where?
Speaker 2:All the time I walk in and they'll people will be on the phone, and they'll be, like, hang on. I gotta go. The doctor's here. And I'm, like, oh, jeez. So I have to not only do I have to, like, let them down that I'm definitely not the doctor, I like totally interrupted their phone conversation with their loved one who's probably really worried about them.
Speaker 2:So I'm like, I'm just the job, Lynn. You know? It was this, like and I've I've changed my response to that over the years. But, yeah, I really I wish I was the doctor. Like, I've thought often, like, maybe I should just, like, lie to them or something, but I've never done that.
Speaker 2:Never done that. But I I struggled with not having a task to accomplish. I struggled with not being a loved one that they were familiar with who, like, knew what this person needed to hear. But the longer that I've done this work, the more visits I have and the more people I meet, the more I've come to believe something with everything in me, and that is that there is healing in presence. There's healing in presence.
Speaker 2:So I have 2 goals in my ministry to hurting persons in the hospital, and that kind of trickles out into my, like, ministry to people outside the hospital. And those two goals are pretty basic. I attempt to affirm their intrinsic value as image bearers of God, and I affirm that they are not alone. So the more I do this work, I see that these two very basic ideas, very seemingly simple on the front hand, are not insignificant. When they are offered when these two offerings are made to persons who are hurting, they can have power beyond measure when it comes to their healing process.
Speaker 2:It's taken me a while to actually believe this. So if you have, you know, skepticism in your mind hearing that that's actually helpful, I understand. But the longer that I have practiced this in my ministry, I've realized that this is not a new idea. This is actually one of the oldest ideas, and it resonates completely with what we see in scripture of how God interacts with his creation. So throughout scripture we're in part 2, by the way.
Speaker 2:Throughout scripture, the activity of the trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is to draw near to creation in relationship. So in the garden in Genesis, we see, God has created man and woman, and He's designed them to be His movement toward involved discipline, but he moved toward Adam and Eve by, first, validating their worth and clothing them and protecting them. And, secondly, he reassured them that they're that he would be in relationship with them. Now that knew that relationship had consequences to what it was originally, and it definitely had, there was separation. But God reassured Adam and Eve that he would be with them and be accessible to them, so much so that ultimately the offspring of the of the woman would conquer sin.
Speaker 2:And so throughout the Old Testament, we see God always making himself accessible to his people, to his creation. And this takes a variety of forms. So we see, you know, burning bushes. We see voices, dreams, visions. God, sends sends messengers to convey his his nearness.
Speaker 2:We have the Ten Commandments, his form of relating to his people by the law. Eventually, we see kings and prophets and judges, these representatives of God on earth to his people. God in His way. It is His character to draw near to His people in relationship when they are hurting, when they are vulnerable, and when they are suffering. Ultimately, we know that the most powerful display of God drawing near to His creation is in the person of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, one with the Father.
Speaker 2:He came God came to dwell in our midst to literally relate to us. Our deepest need, a relationship with him, had been severed in the garden, and Jesus came in human form to reconcile us to himself. He knew that we could not be alone in our sin. We could not bear the weight of that, and He knew that we needed the broken identity that happened in the garden to be restored in Him as a new creation. So Jesus came in flesh to dwell with us and meet those exact needs with his presence.
Speaker 2:So with the indwelling of Christ, it makes sense that we as believers experience echoes of this healing when we offer our presence to those who are vulnerable and suffering. And you know this to be true. If you have walked through any form of suffering, that, if there is a a person who draws near and remains with you, it is a holy and healing gift. When we attend to each other, and remain with people in their suffering, we offer a real, live, breathing, thinking, laughing, crying person that can help them on the journey of suffering. So if the incarnation of Jesus is the model or the picture of God ultimately drawing near with his presence, and a model by which how we are to relate to others who are suffering and hurting by offering our presence.
Speaker 2:I believe that the the work of Jesus on the cross and the resurrection give us access to the hope that we need to actually do this type of work. So as I mentioned earlier, my experience growing up had very little exposure to trauma in crisis, and I had a pretty smooth kind of existence, by all terms. And so when I started working at the hospital, very quickly did I realize that entering into pain with other people takes a toll. It takes a toll on you emotionally and mentally and spiritually, And there have to be things sort of in place that we can lean on and that can support us when we are kind of tossed around by that emotional and spiritual experience. And so there would be days that I would leave the hospital in deep anguish over what I had seen.
Speaker 2:The the amount of, like, brokenness that exists in a hospital, no surprise, is kind of overwhelming. Nobody wants to be there. And I would leave just, often sad and often angry. And even though I consider myself to be very rooted in the truth that God is good and kind and loving and has a perfect timed plan. Those things, even on my best days, were called into question.
Speaker 2:And so I realized that if I was going to be in this type of work walking into pain with people on a regular basis, that I had to come to anchor myself more fully in the the truth of the crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus. And those that has served as my anchor, as my handles by which I kind of navigate these conversations and these relationships. They're not designed to be forced onto someone else, but they're for my own sake. And so in the crucifixion, we see a savior weighed into death. He wades into brokenness and sin, ultimately experiencing the most, devastating, which is separation from the father.
Speaker 2:But the beautiful, sacred, holy news of that is that He does not remain there. He comes out on the other side of suffering, and He does this for us. He has come He has suffered for us, and He has come out on the other side for us. And I believe that this combination of death and resurrection is the hope with with which we who follow Christ can can cling to. And, it can serve as our anchor when we are walking, not only through our own suffering, but also when we are walking through suffering with other people.
Speaker 2:Furthermore, scripture attests to this truth that we are united with Christ in our suffering, and when we suffer. And I typically, this means when we suffer ourselves, which inevitably, that will happen. But I also believe there's this unique partnership and connection that we experience with Christ's ministry when we suffer alongside of other people, that has the power to unite us because we are participating in a similar ministry, of of drawing near and entering into relationship that Christ demonstrated when he when he came to Earth. So nothing has caused me to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus quite like working in a hospital. I see the need for a suffering savior, and I equally cling to the hope of that crucified Lord risen and exalted.
Speaker 2:So it's from this picture of God's way of relating to us by His presence that we come to this idea of ministry of presence. This describes the act or discipline of being fully present with another as an end in itself, a means of grace. This form of ministry is used primarily when immediate decisive actions just aren't really feasible or appropriate or when words fail, and they do not they're hard to come by. Contrary to our human instinct to find the right thing to say or to actually do something, the ministry of presence offers yourself an attentive, listening presence that reminds the other that they are not alone. This spiritual practice is difficult because it does not immediately accomplish a task, It involves waiting, and it involves listening.
Speaker 2:But when we offer our physical presence to someone in pain, we're joining with the ministry of Christ, the one who drew near, the one who dwelt among, and carried our yoke upon him. We do not heal. We do not rescue. We do not save. Christ alone is the one that does that.
Speaker 2:But we offer our presence as an instrument of healing and companionship during suffering. So part 3. What does this take? How do we learn this discipline if our primary instinct our our instincts are to say and do? What does it take to develop this discipline of caring for those in pain?
Speaker 2:And my answer is it requires some conditioning. Like any discipline, it requires conditioning. So the first step to becoming more capable of walking with others is a hearty portion of self reflection. And I what I don't mean by that is a obsession with your personality type or your numbers or animals or your Enneagrams, where you become that, like, dreaded party guest that wants to name everybody and tell you all about their idiosyncrasies like we care. We don't.
Speaker 2:I'm an Enneagram 6. It's fine. But what I am suggesting, what I do believe is that we all carry with us a history, a unique history filled with attitudes, values, assumptions, faith perspectives that inform and influence our behaviors. A majority of these influencing factors go completely unnoticed. They go completely unchecked or unquestioned because they are the air we breathe.
Speaker 2:They're it's the air we breathe for our entire lives, and it's the way in which we that's the conversations that we typically share with the people in our lives, with our peers, with our loved ones. So that being said, self reflection is helpful in exploring a few different things. The first kind of the first step to that that I would that I would suggest, if this is if this is a type of work and ministry that you find difficult but also want to grow in, would be evaluating your relationship with pain in your own life, and asking some questions, some why questions about that. For example, how did I experience pain and suffering when I was a child? How was this modeled for me?
Speaker 2:Some more advanced, like, deeper questions would be, how do I respond to pain in my own life? Why do I do this? What are benefits from this approach? What are some limitations to this approach? And to reflect on current situations in which you're encountering pain, asking the question, how do I typically respond when I encounter pain in another?
Speaker 2:Why might this be my response? And are there any areas in my own life that might cause me that might cause me pain that I am avoiding? So just basic basic awareness questions reflecting on your kind of relationship with pain over the course of your lifetime might provide some insight and some more options for you in relating to other people who are walking through a painful or hurting experience, even if the situations are very different. As an aside, I kind of want to talk briefly about this emotional awareness piece. I'm not gonna spend very much time with it because it's sort of out of my depth.
Speaker 2:But I think it's important to touch on, And that is that paying attention to our feelings is important. And because oftentimes, our feelings are sort of signs or, like, flashing lights that something's going on under the surface. And it could very likely influence how we interact with somebody else. And when we don't pay attention to those feelings and those, like, symptoms, we kinda narrow our options of how to interact with somebody else. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:So, for example, a situation could break raise emotion, totally different emotions for 2 different people, the very same situation. So, for example, if if there's an individual in the church that that we're friends with that has said, hey. I just recently quit my job. You know? It was getting way too stressful, and I I just felt like it was more than I could really handle.
Speaker 2:And I just don't really feel like I'm in a place to deal with that kind of work right now, so I quit my job. So 2 people interacting with that person could have 2 totally different emotional responses. 1 guy could be furious. He's got a mortgage. He's got a wife and kids.
Speaker 2:He he had a great job. Why did he quit? That seems kinda lazy. That seems kind of irresponsible. Similarly, on the other side, another person interacting with that exact same situation could be like, I'm so happy for him.
Speaker 2:He's taking great care of himself. He knows what his what his limits are. He's gonna have time to rest and kinda reevaluate what's going on in his life, and I'm so excited for him. So these 2 situation these 2 people are having completely different emotional responses to this one scenario probably because there's some attitudes and values and things under the surface there that are really important to them. Work ethic is really important to person a.
Speaker 2:Rest and taking care of yourself is really important to person b. But if we don't pay attention to those emotional responses and why we're having them, then we're kind of limiting the way that we care for a person. We're limiting the way the options that are available to us in that situation. Similarly, if we need to pay attention to our emotional responses when we're talking to people who are hurting, because oftentimes, the lines get blurred between what is yours and what is mine. And when we pay attention to our emotional responses, we can take ownership for the feelings and thoughts that I have that aren't really that person that don't really have anything to do with that person at all and what feelings and thoughts and values that person has that don't bear on me.
Speaker 2:So brief aside, emotional awareness, it's a thing. Go do it. The final thing, kind of the final piece of self reflection that I wanna touch on is an remove pain. So the tendency I mentioned at the beginning for us to say or do something with a person in pain ultimately comes from our human desire to want to remove that pain for the sake of the other person or for our own sake. And that desire for stasis and emotional calm and everything to be okay is oftentimes so strong within us that we try to remove pain in others to save them from something.
Speaker 2:And while this tendency is altruistic, it's probably very well intentioned, it is not always wise to do that. Furthermore, our faith in Christ supports this idea that it's really none of our business trying to remove pain. It's not our responsibility to remove pain. Only Christ can do that. And I found this this fact of not being responsible for removing or taking away pain to be the most liberating and the most difficult thing about my work.
Speaker 2:I find that it forces me to be more in tune with my reliance on the Holy Spirit. And, I believe my understanding of the Holy Spirit is that, you know, he is he is the one that is doing the healing work, And, there are situations that I enter into that are beyond my control and beyond my ability to fix. And so the liberating part comes when I understand that that that's not work that is my job. Quite literally, it's above my pay grade. So there's a couple things that I think when we when we resist that temptation to try and remove the pain, there's a few things that happen.
Speaker 2:1st, I think it it reassures the person who is hurting that it's okay for them to be in pain in our presence. So the world is gonna be telling the people who are hurting, get over it. Get over it fast, because you're making us all feel really uncomfortable, and we don't know what to say to you. We don't know what to do with you. We don't know how to we don't know how to interact with you while you're hurting, so please deal with it in private.
Speaker 2:And if you are able to sit with somebody who is hurting and say, I'm here. I am not running. I'm not leaving. I'm not fixing. They will be it will be a huge contribution to their healing process.
Speaker 2:Yes. So that's the first the first thing that's sort of accomplished by resisting that is it reassures them that it's okay for them to feel pain. They can be in your midst, and you not feel the responsibility to take it away. 2nd, this provides us with actual time and space to listen. I think one of the most important things that we can pay attention to is is this this person who's suffering and hearing from them.
Speaker 2:And often, our tendency to say and do, impulsively and hastily, it it misses what actually they need from us because we're so quick to try to minimize or say or fix that we don't actually hear how this pain is affecting them. We don't have we don't actually see what their need may be. And so this resisting the temptation to remove it and lighten it with our words or actions allows us to actually hear what the need is. And 3rd and finally, this resisting, removing pain, it removes the pressure on us to be the savior. And, man, we love to be a hero.
Speaker 2:We love to be a hero, and I didn't think that was my tendency until I started this work. And I would go in, and I would hope to just come up with the perfect thing to say or the perfect prayer, the perfect story, and more times than not, that had everything to do with me and nothing to do with the person that was hurting. And when I tried that, it I inevitably left just feeling like I had completely missed the mark. And so we have to resist the temptation to be the one to fix it, to be the savior. We if you have been in any situation of of pain or a season of darkness or hurting, you probably experienced this when you when somebody asks how you're doing.
Speaker 2:You take the risk and actually tell them. And in an effort for them to calm you and themselves, they, try to share a story that's not anywhere near what you're experiencing. And But they're trying, and then they probably If if they're Christian, they tack on, like, a lesson that God taught them. And it's really great, and it has nothing to do with what you're going through. And it's really insulting.
Speaker 2:It's really painful because it wraps up their scenario, which, albeit may be similar, but it kind of wraps up their scenario in a box, and it puts a bow on it, and it says, You know what? You're gonna be able to put yours in a pretty box here in a few weeks, so hang in there. And it's really painful for for the people who are hurting and suffering to feel that. And, there is a reason why, there's no perfect thing to say to people who are hurting because the perfect things, the, the platitudes, like, everything happens for a reason, and God is in control, and let go and let God, and my heavens, there's so many more of them. There's a like, those are those are the things that people think are the appropriate thing to say to people that are hurting.
Speaker 2:And they're they're terrible. Right? Like, they actually don't accomplish what they're trying to do. And so even the the most perfect phrases, while they may be true, they're they're not fitting because there's really nothing perfect to say to somebody in pain. So when we when we resist that temptation to fix and remove the pain, we're saying, this isn't my thing to fix.
Speaker 2:Only Jesus, only Christ can can lighten this load and can shoulder this burden actually for this person. I'm just here to be an instrument, a presence, a companion during this suffering. When yes. When I'm gonna say this one last thing, and then we're gonna recap. When we are able to sit with someone in pain and relieve ourselves of the pressure to remove or fix the pain, we're leaning into the spirit.
Speaker 2:We're actually relying on Him to do His job so that then we're more able to be fully present ourselves. So to recap, pain is difficult. Pain is really difficult because it's complicated, because it's subjective, and because it's emotional. And our tendency, when we encounter pain, is to say or do, but there is an alternative option, and that is to be present first. God's character throughout scripture is to draw near to His creation.
Speaker 2:Ultimately, He has done that in the person of Jesus. He has taken on flesh to dwell with His people to provide for our most intimate needs, And the crucifixion, the resurrection, the work of Jesus on the cross through and through the resurrection is the hope with which we can cling to to do this type of presence, to ministry of presence. And then I believe that the kind of first step in being able to do this this spiritual discipline of caring for others in pain is looking into our own lives, some of the things that might go unchecked. Our relationship interaction with pain through the course of our life, how we think and view our emotions, and how we view our tendency to remove the pain from people. All these things are things that we can begin to dig into if we want to be better, equipped to walk with others through pain and suffering.
Speaker 2:So I that is the completion of my lecture, and we're gonna take a quick break. Jeff has informed me, I'll usually do about a 5 minute break, and then we will enter into a time of questions.
Jeffrey Heine:Just as a quick reminder, it is q and a, and the q doesn't stand for your time for a lecture. So questions would be awesome. So, oh, we we got one. We got a we are question ready right here. Okay.
Jeffrey Heine:So, yeah, that's that's the way it will work, just like, raise your hand, and then we'll we'll try and make our way around, as quickly as possible. Sound good? Good? Alright. First question.
Speaker 3:Good, Kelly. Good luck. Does he
Speaker 2:say someone stand up? Up? Yes, they do.
Speaker 4:Oh, I
Speaker 2:don't know how to stand up.
Speaker 5:I have a question
Speaker 6:in that is it I mean, obviously, you don't know a person's faith when you walk into a hospital room, but just in your own personal life, is there a difference in the presence that you provide a non believer versus a believer? I
Speaker 2:that's a great question. What's your name? Just so I can feel like I know you. Cali. Cali.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yes. Yes. That's a great question. The question was, yeah, do you offer a different type of presence based on any type of faith difference?
Speaker 2:And I think the my instinct is to say no. I don't really offer a different type of presence. I think how I maybe talk about that would be different. If the the why came up, I would talk about that differently with somebody that, I would potentially share more in common with as far as a faith background goes when I interact with but the the tricky thing is in the hospital, there's such limited time. So I I try not to make any assumptions on faith.
Speaker 2:But if the person has voiced that, yeah, they are a believer and, you know, all that. Yeah. So I would say kinda how I talk about how I talk about that, might be different with with a person that's not of the Christian faith. But I think the nature of of physical presence being an aid in the healing process is, while I believe it to be anchored in the Christian faith, it's not it it is universal. And so I don't necessarily feel the need to immediately connect that to my faith unless it feels appropriate in the relationship with a person.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense? It does. Okay. Do you have any follow-up? It's all bad.
Speaker 2:Okay. Great question.
Jeffrey Heine:Alright. Next.
Speaker 2:Hi. Hi. I'm Paige. Paige. Excuse me.
Speaker 2:Excuse me.
Speaker 7:So in your part 3, you talked about, how
Speaker 2:the world tells us to kinda handle it on our own, do things in private because you're making me uncomfortable.
Speaker 7:What would you say or what would you do, which is an awful way to word that, if you have a friend who's believing that, who's believing that they need to do it in private, but you, like, want to be present with them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, if you'd be I have a kind of a follow-up question if, you'd be willing to share. Is it something that you have inquired about with them and they have resisted, or you just observe that they're dealing with this in private? The first one. So you've inquired, and they're saying, no thanks.
Speaker 3:And then the second.
Speaker 2:And the second. Okay. Yeah. Those are those are really great questions. I think in the first scenario, if you realize that somebody is hurting and suffering and and they are dealing with it in private and want to continue to do that, there is little you can do.
Speaker 2:I mean, you cannot force somebody to let you in as far as, you know, them opening up about how the pain is affecting them, But I I don't think that has to change your presence in their lives. And the a a, maybe infrequent reminder that you know that that's going on in their life. So kind of I think it might depend on how resistant they've been. If they just aren't talking about it, I would say maybe be willing to inquire a little bit. And and even if they say, hey.
Speaker 2:I just don't really wanna talk about that. In a couple weeks, ask again. You know? If they if they are really believing that this is not something that can be shared or they feel like they have to deal with it on their own, then it is on their minds a lot. And so if you're if you're just remaining present in their life and frequently or semi frequently giving them the space, I think that's as that's the most you can do.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Again, that's all kinda situational. But to answer the second part of that question, which is if you're just observing that they're kind of dealing with it in private and you're not they haven't actually they haven't actually voiced that, I would say and you know it. You know that they're walking through something. I would say ask.
Speaker 2:I I find it that, man, when people are suffering, especially if it's like a loss, a person or a loss of a of an ability or, you know, an independence or something, man, it's on their minds. It's on their minds, and they wanna talk about it, but they don't wanna be the buzzkill. They don't they don't want they don't know how to bring it up, you know, if it's their deal. So if you're just observing that they're not talking about it, I would absolutely say ask until until they say please don't.
Speaker 8:This question might have already been answered by you, but, as far as your job goes, are you allowed to pray with people, or is that against the hospital's rules?
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Yeah. I absolutely can pray with people. I was just telling somebody a minute ago that I don't, I don't pray with every patient. I kinda make a judgment call on that or if they, of course, if they ask for prayer, I I do pray.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, there's no, there's no policy against that. Absolutely not. They the the responsibility is on us to kinda discern that and be respectful of of the patient and the patient's family and their of their faith. And so yeah. But if absolutely, I can, and I do.
Speaker 2:I don't do it with every situation, but, yeah, we can. Good question. Yes.
Speaker 5:Okay. So, sometimes I've found that when, excuse me, when people are suffering, and I've been here too, people can tend to have a skewed view of the character of God. And so I was wondering if you had practical tips on when to speak truth about the character of God versus when to just be quiet.
Speaker 2:Right. Like, if they're voicing something that's, like, contradictory to their faith. Yeah. I man, that's so so tender. It's so sensitive because part of part of, like, wrestling with pain is wrestling with your faith.
Speaker 2:Right? Especially if your faith is is important to you on any level, suffering just just digs in and out into all of that. So my my thought is, listen listen and see if if, these questions and the the struggle that they might be having in their faith are are serving them in any way, if it's helping, because I do think that there's a place for doubt and pain, you know, to ask those questions and and go to God. He can handle he can handle all of that. But if you find that those that the that those questions or those doubts are are hurting them and maybe hindering their healing process, then it I think it's it's your discernment as as a Christian brother or sister to to see what you need to say.
Speaker 2:You know? But I I do think there is it's it's very normal for that to be a part of the the wrestling, grieving, processing thing that we do when we're hurting, is to figure out, like, what is God doing, and why is he acting like this? You know? So I I would I would be tentative to say, oh, yeah. Always always speak truth into that, you know, every single lie.
Speaker 2:But I think if you're in a a close proximity relationship with that person, you can kind of see, is this wrestling with God, like, helping them grow and helping them cope and heal, or is it kinda leading them down, like, a further, more destructive way? You know? Does that help? Or yeah. It's not unusual in the hospital for me to, like, interact with people who say things like, God's so mad at me.
Speaker 2:You know? Or this is this is consequence for what I've done. You know? Things like that. Thing oftentimes, yeah, I hear people processing their pain through a lens that I don't believe is true about God.
Speaker 2:And so I rather than just trying to dump mine on that for them, I try to figure out where where that's coming from. You know? Why are you feeling that way about God and how his you know, how what else do you believe about God that informs that? You know? But it's very difficult to not wanna just jump in and, no.
Speaker 2:God does not. He's not like that. He doesn't do that. You know? It's believe this instead.
Speaker 2:It's so much easier. You know? It it's difficult to not try to, like, offer an immediate, like, remedy framework. So, yeah, I understand that's difficult.
Speaker 9:I just wanna add on to that question just a little bit. I think one of the the frequent lies that you even said on your best stage you'd run into is I question the kindness, goodness, love, and sovereignty of God because I see these things. So even on, like, the best days, you as the person who's not even walking through them
Jeffrey Heine:Yeah.
Speaker 9:Would ask those questions, and obviously, if you walk into them, would ask those same questions. So in a more specific way, when we feel like we're walking through suffering where someone else is and God doesn't seem kind or good or sovereign Mhmm. What are some of the ways you've countered those lies maybe in your own life or with others?
Speaker 2:Professional counseling, for sure. That's I don't say that jokingly. Like, a lot of the trauma and crisis that I've experienced, has really, like, caused me to, like, seek outside counsel on how to process it and deal with it because you just carry that stuff with you. And, yeah, it it flies in the face of a good god when you see a premature child, you know, lost. So, but yeah.
Speaker 2:So I would say counseling to process grief and sorrow. I I think it's been really helpful for me following, yeah, walking through certain situations to immediately, like, go to God in prayer with whatever that emotion is. You know? Like, god, this is this is bogus. Like, I have said that in my prayers so many times.
Speaker 2:Like, this is absolutely bogus. You know? And and bringing that to God. You know, we see in the Psalms just riddled with that kind of language, you know, anger and and and doubt and frustration to God and saying, how how? Where are you?
Speaker 2:You know? So I I find comfort that that's, like, modeled in scripture so we can do that. Again, none of these things immediately, like, remedy that struggle, but I I think there is something yeah. And in God's, like, grace giving us that ability to hold those things intention because, yeah, I I think prayer prayer and counseling, obviously, scripture and just clinging to, yeah, clinging to the true things, you know, that that that the the lord will will write all of this eventually, that there will be a reckoning on sin and destruction eventually, and these things don't get the final say. But, yeah, you, you can't.
Speaker 2:There's even with even when I believe I'll bet everything, I'll put all my cards, all my money, or whatever it is on that truth. You know? It's it's just hard. You know? You can't leave not asking where is God in some of this stuff.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I would say just counsel, scripture, and prayer, for sure.
Speaker 10:As you hear just story after story, of trauma and pain, how do you maintain and cultivate a heart of compassion towards people who are suffering?
Speaker 2:Yeah. There's definitely I come home some days, and I tell my husband, yeah, I didn't do my best work today, because it is it does get a little bit, it's easy to I I guess, you know, if anybody in the medical profession can relate to this, like, you do have to kinda desensitize yourself to some of it, or you just gosh. I'd be leaving every room a wreck. You know? But I think when I find myself when I find myself kind of at the end or feeling like I'm at the end of my compassion or feeling like my mind is, elsewhere, you know, when I'm on my way to a patient's room and if I'm thinking about new girl or something, and I'm I'm realizing, like, oh, I just I don't really wanna be here.
Speaker 2:My attention is distracted. I I really try to pray and ask God to, like, help me reengage. And you know what? He does. He really like, that that's one thing about this work that is has been so powerful is that when when I need the Holy Spirit to kind of draw my heart and my attention into, like, compassion, he he does that.
Speaker 2:Because, yeah, there's so many times that I kinda feel like I just am at the end of my what I can offer, you know, which I guess is probably where I need to feel most of the time. But but, yeah, I think and and and entering into each room and trying to see the person as kind of a new opportunity, a new relationship, and just getting to hear their story. And I find that once I begin conversation with people and get to kinda hear their story, typically, there is some, like, compassion that's sort of triggered. But, yeah, I think I think asking and seeking the holy spirit to to come in and reengage that is, like, probably what I'm doing on the way to every room. Yeah.
Speaker 11:So you were speaking earlier about if you felt that if someone felt that they had a similar situation that they were dealing with to help a friend, that wasn't the best way to just say, oh, oh, I know exactly what you're dealing with. This is what I did and just put a big red bow on it. Mhmm. Well, how would someone use similar situations if they felt that way without just saying that they know exactly what they're going through?
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's such a great question. I appreciate you asking because that made it sound like I don't think you should ever offer comfort if you've been in a similar situation. Like, oh, no. Not me.
Speaker 2:No. I I do I I'm I know that there are there are instances in which that can be incredibly helpful. I mean, gosh, imagine, you know, if somebody has lost a parent or if somebody's lost a child or if somebody is walking through unemployment or, divorce. Absolutely, you need to surround yourself or find at least one person that has walked that road, you know, or is walking that road. So I I mean, in scripture attest to this, you know, we walk through certain things so that we can comfort and provide a ministry of comfort to other people.
Speaker 2:So I I think what I was specifically saying to kinda, like, steer clear of is when you feel that tendency to share that story in an effort to make you feel more comfortable around that person hurting, that's what we need to be aware of. If I'm just sharing this story because I don't really know what else to say, and I think this might be similar, and I gotta go. You know? Like, that's the kind of tendency that I would say avoid that. If you find that you, you know, you have walked this road and you have compassion for this person and you're feeling that, you know, you can really empathize with what they're feeling, and you can say, hey.
Speaker 2:I know this isn't the exact same situation. I don't know exactly what you're feeling, but a really similar thing happened to me a couple years ago. So if you ever wanna talk about it, like, I'm here. I walked through some of that. That's a totally kinda different approach to that sort of identifying and empathizing.
Speaker 2:Empathy is is crucial. It's that when we when we tend to share our own experience out of an attempt to, like, really protect ourselves or deal with the awkwardness that I think we need to be leery of. Does that help answer? Hi, Malia.
Speaker 12:Hello. My question is, when you encounter an individual who wants you to do something or say something, Like, how how is that interaction handled?
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's actually awesome. Oh, great. You want me to do something? Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think there is absolutely a place for us, especially in the hospital. I mean, a lot of times they're asking for, you know, specific rituals like the Lord's supper, you know, or prayer specifically or help. You know? I I think they're in ministering to people in suffering, there is always you know, not always, but there's likely something that that we can do.
Speaker 2:You know? And there are some some some situations that require that we say things. You know? But I think it's it's viewing those opportunities after you have made yourself, like, fully present to their attention. You know, you're giving you're giving them your full attention, and then assessing what to say or do after you've, like, really listened to what's going on.
Speaker 2:So if I feel like I've really listened to a patient and figured out what's going on, I I am absolutely for doing things based on that kind of assessment. And, you know, gosh, sometimes offering a box of Kleenexes and getting a drink of water for people is ministering to them, you know, in in their time of need. So I'm absolutely for action and words. But I I think it's making sure that those things are in the appropriate order after listening and being present first.
Speaker 4:My question is, what if there comes a time when you feel like you've been listening and you've been walking through something with a person and, you feel the need to speak up and to say something and to be heard, and maybe there's some wallowing going on. Do you have advice for what posture you should have toward that person?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Gosh. That's a great question. Yeah. So the first thing that comes to mind are instances when I've been in the hospital, and, I call it, I get monologue, Like I go into a patient's room and really I get talked at for 20 minutes and I haven't gotten a word in edgewise and I have to make a decision in those moments, like what is the best for this person and also what's the best for me?
Speaker 2:You know? Like, what's wise? And so it's not just kinda, administrative presence is not inviting, sense of, like, permanent, silence or inaction, and it's not disregarding, like, your presence in the relationship. You know? It's not acknowledging kinda your needs as a person.
Speaker 2:So if it comes to the point where you're ministering or you're caring for somebody in pain and it's infringing upon, like, your needs as a person, then I would say that that's person is kind of remaining exactly where they are, and you've, gosh, kind of reached the end of what you can do, then it might just be wise for you to find out find other ways to relate to them besides just walking with them through pain, if that makes sense. Yeah. I think that's so it's it's so specific to the person, so it'd be hard for me to kind of exactly counsel. But I think just being wise about, you know, assessing where this person has been and how has thing have things changed in their journey with this particular suffering? Maybe this, you know, maybe you do reach the end of your ministry presence with them and in that specific way, and maybe you just have to find a a new way of relating to them that's not necessarily, like, checking in on them and making sure they're okay and giving them an ear to listen to.
Speaker 2:You know? Like, you need to find a new way of relating to them, but also monitoring your own needs. I know for caregivers, specifically, sometimes they can feel it sounds harsh, but for a lack of better words, taken advantage of by people who are hurting in their lives because they feel so drawn to care for them. But but we do have to we have to be careful to to tend to our needs to in those really heavy relationships with people that are walking through pain.
Speaker 13:For believing caregivers, that are working in the hospital. I think the hardest situation that I've encountered thus far is when I recognize a grave medical situation, like end of life situation. And the family is a believing family. They're holding on to the healing power of Jesus. Mhmm.
Speaker 13:And how as a believing medical provider, you bridge that gap between the family and other non believing medical providers.
Speaker 14:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So how do you kind of, counsel them in that end of life kind of decision process?
Speaker 13:Like yes. So when you like, to explain to families what you're seeing on an exam, like, on a physical exam that is not compatible
Speaker 2:with life
Speaker 13:or that is not doesn't have a good prognosis, but still helping them hold on to the hope and to pray for healing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oh gosh. So, so painful. Yeah. I have experienced a few of those, and, oh, not across the board, but, like, sometime my assessment with those situations is that often that's more to do with the family left behind than it is the person who's sick.
Speaker 2:And so I I will often try to inquire and engage in conversation that asks what is best for the patient. You know? What's best for this loved one? Ultimately, it's wholeness and and wellness, and if we can't offer that on this side of eternity, like, this may be this may be the wise thing to do for them. You know?
Speaker 2:I I try to gear it to gear the, you know, maybe caregiver family's perspective around the what the patient would want, what the patient needs, what's best with some in the best interest of the patient, because, yeah, the, and and at the at the same time, being willing to leave a door open for miraculous healing. I mean, you know, if you work in the medical profession, that happens. And so, like, I am never gonna close the door completely on that. If I'm gonna on the side of trusting miracles, it's gonna be trusting miracles. You know?
Speaker 2:So, I will always leave the door open for that. But if it comes to the, like, wellness of the patient and the best interest of the patient, I try to gear a conversation around them, as if and and not disengage or disregard the healing conversation, but just talk about the needs of the patient who's who's hurting.
Speaker 7:How do you handle the question of why? Because when you walk through with people that are suffering, they're going to ask you the question of I don't understand or I don't know why. I mean, you can't really answer that question for them, but they're still looking for a response
Speaker 2:to you.
Speaker 7:So how can you respond appropriately
Speaker 2:to that? Yeah. I that's a great question. I, I have become more comfortable with answering I don't know. And that is so hard when somebody is looking at you in the eyes and, you know, whether you're a nurse or you're a doctor or you're the chaplain, you feel the need to kinda answer that and fill in the gaps.
Speaker 2:If it's early on in my relationship with this person, like, if if I've just met them and that comment or question gets brought up, I will absolutely say, I don't know. I wish I could answer that. And then I will try to continue, you know, conversation around that and around that grief and that emotion that that is inspiring that conversation because, man, that's so loaded. But if it's somebody that I've been walking in relationship for a while, I might be more comfortable with kind of engaging or entertaining some some answers to that. Like, but if especially if it's a new if it's a new patient or new relationship, somebody that I don't have a rapport.
Speaker 2:I don't know their history. You know, I don't know a lot of the reasons surrounding the circumstances, and I surely don't try to put things on God. Like, this is probably what God's trying to teach you. This is probably what God's trying to tell you. I I spent you know, definitely at the beginning of a relationship, I wouldn't I would steer clear of that.
Speaker 2:Again, the longer you know somebody, the more kinda comfortable and confident you can navigate some of that. But I I do think it's okay as as care providers, whether that's medical or otherwise, to say, we don't know. And that's such a really cop out answer, so I apologize for that. But, I think there has to be some willingness on our end to say that that we don't know, because we we we could really, our best guess is a guess at why, and that may not be super helpful to them So hard. That's that's definitely one of the the most challenging things, you know, is to face somebody, who's who's, in any context, hospital or otherwise, who's who's dealing with deep, deep pain.
Speaker 2:And, man, there's just not always a a logical answer.
Speaker 3:Is there a distinction? I've been trying to think about how to phrase this. A distinction in your call to presence at work versus your presence with people that are members of your church family. Mhmm. In that, I mean, I don't know how it works at work.
Speaker 3:I mean, sometimes you may, I guess, presumably see somebody once, sometimes you may see somebody a couple months. Do you have appointments, versus so that's gonna come to an end. Whereas, can you just talk about just kind of our call and our role in both places? Because I don't think anybody else in here is a chaplain. They're obviously a bunch of medical professionals.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But but, I don't encounter people Mhmm. Just in an acute way often like
Speaker 8:that. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:So just if you could give some insight into our call is believing Christians walking in those more acute settings, and then the parallel to be our call and presence with our members of our church family.
Speaker 2:Long term relationships as opposed. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right. And because, like, we're not usually gonna have an appointment with somebody in our church family. So just how you would advise us in handling that together.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's a great question. So if I if I don't touch on all of it, make sure you follow-up because I wanna make sure. I think I have noticed so like Jeff said, we're we minister at Shades Mountain Baptist Church. I'm not on staff there, but I I teach a Sunday school class, and I care, you know, in real long ongoing long term relationships with with people that are in my class.
Speaker 2:And so, I have noticed that, yeah, I do sort of, like, adopt a lot of the philosophy of, like, caring for people in pain and suffering with the people that I know kinda long term that I do in the acute setting. But it just it just is, like, more developed. It's just more full, and it's it's a longer term as opposed to kinda what I offer, yeah, in the hospital setting in which I may only see them once or maybe twice, you know? But I think what the whole concept of, like, being present with somebody embodies is is is, yeah, an ongoing model of how to be how to sit in pain with people. Because I think I think in those long term, you know, those relationships, like, in our church or in our family, sometimes those can be even harder because you talk about that pain once, and then the next time you see them, you maybe forget.
Speaker 2:Or you're thinking that they're better because it's, like, 3 months later, or, you you know, it's not on your radar anymore because it's not as dire. And so I think it's, yeah, maybe even more necessary to kinda continue that same pattern of, like, being present, being available, listening, being attentive, like, not allowing, you know, our emotional tendencies to kinda steer how we dodge those conversations with people, asking, continually asking, saying, hey. It's still on my radar that that's a thing going on with you. You know? Because that's really what I would do if I saw a patient more than once.
Speaker 2:You know, if I kept seeing a patient over the course of weeks or months, I would, of course, talk about lots of other things and talk about the thing that has them in the hospital. You know? So I think, hospital. Full, more kinda developed with a person that you're gonna be in an ongoing relationship with, but I think all the principles are still still there. You know?
Speaker 2:Being present, being aware of your emotions, listening, before speaking, resisting the tendency to remove pain, resisting the tendency to think that it's gone, you know, that they're better. Does that cover?
Speaker 3:Yeah. It does. That was actually the main focus of my question, but now that you're talking, the other side of it too, this idea of we see we all encounter situations where there's someone very, like, that random person at work who I only see a couple of times a
Speaker 2:week. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:You know, their husband just died suddenly. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:It
Speaker 3:just it works actually probably in that example is what I'm trying to get at. Even something that's more passive than
Speaker 2:that. Yeah. More distant. Our
Speaker 3:fault to enter into that moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And
Speaker 3:then just the way that you process, you know, the truth that it's okay for you to step in and then step out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I think so I'm kinda just trying to parallel it with, like, my work with, you know, patients in the hospital, and I don't. I have no ambition or desire or expectation to, offer ministry of presence to every patient in the hospital, and, you know, not every house patient in the hospital does not be seen by a chaplain, does not get seen by a chaplain. And so in those situations where the person is really distant, but you're in a passing relationship, I think it's it's a matter of discernment of whether or not this person would, you know, has anybody that is kind of intersecting with them to say, hey.
Speaker 2:You can you can be in pain around me, and it's okay. You know? If that person has that and you can assess that they have that, then it may not be it may not be your moment to kinda step in and say, hey. I'm here. You can talk to me.
Speaker 2:You know? But if you if you get the impression that, you know, that person is kind of flying solo and they're walking through this without anybody, then you can maybe extend, you know, the offering of a friendship or a presence to them to say, hey. I can I can be here? I can listen to that. You know?
Speaker 2:But I think that's a matter of discernment about what that person needs, and you may just need to find that out. Hey. Do you have people that you're talking to this to to about this? This is really this is really hard. I'm so sorry you're walking through this.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to make sure you've got people that know this is going on. You know? Something as simple as that can kinda help you discern if that person needs, you know, people checking in on them. But that's it's it is difficult when it's distant like that. It's hard to know, is this my opportunity to step in, or is it okay if I don't?
Speaker 2:No. No. I guess so. It's so rare, and I get so excited when I do. It's actually really amazing when I get to walk in.
Speaker 2:If I'm visiting a patient who's just gotten really great news, you know, that does happen some where they're like, oh, I mean, it's not unusual for me to walk in and they're saying, oh, I'm getting discharged. I get to go home. Oh, great. You know? I was I was laughing.
Speaker 2:That's my face because Josh and Laura, I got to be present when their little their little ones were in the NICU and getting ready to go home, and I got to graciously they let me feed 1 of their babies. And so so, yeah, that was that is a very sacred experience in the hospital to get to to get to celebrate with people. It's it's not super common, but, yeah, when, you know, and and there are occasional, weddings in the hospital. People wanna get married, and so the chaplains are usually enlisted to do that. I have not yet performed a wedding in the hospital.
Speaker 2:But those occasions, you know, that there there are occasions that chaplains are kinda brought into to celebrate with people, and those are very, very sacred. So, but it's yeah. Unfortunately, it's rarely the case. Yeah. Mhmm.
Speaker 15:I have a question. When you talk about your ministry of presence, what advice do you have for when the person on the the other end is maybe not present themselves versus, you know, maybe there's mental issues. Mhmm. They're not sober, or, you know, maybe they're heavily medicated. Mhmm.
Speaker 15:How do you go about that relationship without getting too frustrated? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it does look so different. It does look so different based on the condition, the mental condition, consciousness of a patient. And and I would say, you know, the Ministry of Presence means meeting them where they are kinda right in that moment. So I have had a good so UAB has a psychiatric hospital wing, and, I have a good bit of interaction there, and it it's difficult.
Speaker 2:You know, it's it's different. It's just different. You kinda have to quickly assess what is going on and and lower expectations for, like, what conversation would look like or just change expectations for what conversation would look like. You know, if it comes to, I have had some patients, like, in in relapse and, or in detox. I mean, when they've come in maybe from an overdose or something, and, really, it's very minimal what we can kind of interact with.
Speaker 2:And we we if they're conscious and awake, we introduce ourselves, and we make sure that they know what's going on. If they have family members, we can share with them that, like, that we're available. And, obviously, you know, we talk to the the nurses to say, hey. This is we're around for when they're more alert and aware. But and and, also, when I when I have had calls to, unconscious patients, like, patients that are, you know, income like, in a coma or whatever, You know, I do I find out from the nurse if they can hear and go in there and just introduce myself and, let them know that I'm thinking about them and praying for them.
Speaker 2:You know? So sometimes it's really, really, really subtle presence, but I think when you're interacting with people kind of in an altered state, whatever that means, you do just kinda have to change your expectations for what they're able to receive and and offer what what they're able to receive, and and receive what they're able to offer, and let that be enough. Let that offering be enough. Yeah. It's a great
Speaker 9:question. What about younger patients as far as when they can maybe not wrap their head around, like Mhmm. Something wise that you say.
Speaker 2:Trust me. There's not much of that going on. Yeah. So I haven't had a lot of experience with, like, children. I have had some, like, good number of adolescent patients, but, really, I I try to offer kind of the same thing for them and and meet them on their level.
Speaker 2:You know, I I had a I spent a good bit of time with the adolescent unit in the psych building, and, you know, so those are teenagers. And, yeah, we spent a lot of time, like, talking about Taylor Swift, and, you know, we sang a lot. We looked at a lot of YouTube videos. We talked about school and their relationship with their parents. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it kind of I I try not to approach it as, like, any of my visits is, like, I'm here to offer something that that is so wise or profound or, like, you know, really helpful for them. I try to kinda just get to know them really and listen. And so sometimes, especially with teenagers, that looks like talking about the things that they wanna talk about for a little while and and figuring out what's going on.
Jeffrey Heine:Alright. We we've got time for 2 more questions too, so make them great.
Speaker 16:I apologize. I think I'm basically seeking a hot tip here.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 16:But if you're meeting with someone that is a you know what they've been through Mhmm. Friend or a family member or something Mhmm. How can you let them know that you're trying to meaningfully engage with them and not small talk them, but without starting by saying how are you when you know it's not great.
Speaker 2:So kinda like verbiage. Like, how do you get there in the conversation? I while it is hard, I think honesty is probably the best way to do it. Saying you've been on my mind a lot, and I wanna check-in with you about this thing. You know?
Speaker 2:I could small talk you right now, but you'll probably see right through it. So how are you doing with this? I mean, I don't know the situation, so that may be a terrible script. But I think if you have, like, a very a very specific thing that you're going to talk to them about, to act any other way is not a great usually, not a helpful way to start off. You know?
Speaker 2:And if it's something that's really obvious going on in their life, they may know what you're getting at, you know, anyway. So, yeah, I I would I would say only, you know, you know that dynamic in the relationship, but providing a sense of of comfort, like, hey. I'm not here to attack you, but this is kinda what I'm coming for. I'm coming to check about this thing. Depending on what the situation is, that might be comforting to them.
Speaker 2:It might be comforting that you're actually gonna ask them outright what it is. I don't know. Does that speak to it?
Speaker 16:It helps.
Speaker 2:Is there any follow-up?
Speaker 16:No. Okay.
Speaker 2:Okay. Okay.
Jeffrey Heine:Last question.
Speaker 17:This may apply more to maybe longer term type of grief, like waiting or mending family relationships, things like that. But can you give some helpful tips on thinking through balancing the small talk and the normalcy and kind of giving them a reprieve from the thing that's on their mind constantly as opposed to still checking in and being there for them?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's a great question. Yeah. I don't know if they're again, cop out. But I don't know if there's just one answer for that.
Speaker 2:You know? Like, there might there might be it might if especially if it's a long term relationship, I would say that's gonna be kinda like a dance. You know? Like, oh, today, we only talked about sports, but we didn't I didn't really bring up that thing, you know, that's going on that I know is kinda under the surface. But then the next time you see them, that may be the only thing you talk about.
Speaker 2:You know? Or, so I I I think if if you're in a relationship with somebody who has, like, an ongoing, persisting thing that's causing them pain or a a season that they're walking through, I depending on the frequency of which you see them, I don't think it's unusual to ask them about it at any time. You know? Again, if you're seeing them every day, that might not be necessary. But, you know, if you're seeing them every few weeks, like, hey.
Speaker 2:How how are you doing with your with your parents' divorce? Like, is there any new developments with that? You know? Or if it's an illness or a sickness, like, finding ways to ask about different things, not just how is it going. You know?
Speaker 2:Being specific, I think, can also help, change up the conversation. How are you feeling about it today? Have you thought about it much this week? You know? Coming up with different different kinds of questions to ask surrounding that topic can also make it feel like you're not saying the same thing every time, and they're left to answer the same way that you, you know, that they did the last time.
Speaker 2:But I don't think it's unusual to inquire about that in the midst of the normal course of a conversation that you would have with them. Yeah. I think, it is it definitely is a balance, and you might just have to take, like, a few steps forward and a few steps back over the course of the the relationship.
Jeffrey Heine:Join me in thanking Suzanne for being here tonight.