CJ & The Duke

Meet Senior ServiceNow Developer Advocate & Flow Designer fangirl Lauren McManamon. We discuss ServiceNow origins, cool apps, the benefits of sales experience, Flow Designer, and of course, anime.

Very special thanks to our sponsor, Clear Skye the optimized identity governance & security solution built natively on ServiceNow.

ABOUT US
Cory and Robert are vendor agnostic freelance ServiceNow architects.
Cory is the founder of TekVoyant.
Robert is the founder of The Duke Digital Media

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What is CJ & The Duke?

Authentic, Authoritative, Unapologetic ServiceNow commentary by Cory "CJ" Wesley and Robert "The Duke" Fedoruk

Lauren: spoiler alert.

We are live now.

Who?

Duke: Here we go.

Well, she blew the punchline.

Now everybody knows who show how.

Stranger.

Why don't you introduce yourself?

Lauren: Hi everybody.

My name is Lauren McManamon.

I am one of the senior developer
advocates at ServiceNow.

So alongside the likes of Chuck
Tomasi, Earl Duque and Prada Bagot,

Duke: Welcome to CJ and the Duke.

We are so happy you're here.

Lauren: I'm so happy to be here.

I'm so flattered to be on your podcast.

Thank you for inviting me.

Duke: Oh, it's our pleasure.

It's our pleasure.

CJ: No, absolutely.

Duke: So I guess the first question
is, how did you find ServiceNow?

Lauren: Well, I think, honestly, I think
like a, like a lot of people, it was

almost kind of by happenstance, you know?

so.

ServiceNow kind of came onto
my plate in an interesting way.

One of my first jobs out of college
was for a major defense contractor.

It was one of those, entitled
like dream positions that you're

just really excited to get.

but it wasn't that good of a match.

, not only was the project kind
of different from what I was

anticipating, but there was some.

Weird safety concerns, like
in the area I was working in.

It just, it just wasn't
overall a good fit.

So I was like desperately
looking for a new job.

I was, I think I'd only been the defense
contractor for a couple of weeks.

I was like, this is not for me.

And so I was panic
searching for a new job.

, there was this car reinsurance company
in Dallas and they were looking for

just general full stack developers.

I got the interview.

they were interviewing a couple
other people and I think I talked

a little bit more about, I.

How comp Psci applied to the business
side more than the other applicants.

And so, , basically the CIO of that
company was my final interview and

he had said, well, we have this thing
called ServiceNow and currently only

one guy's working on it and he's doing
a great job, but he needs, someone

to bounce ideas off of someone to
help him with projects and stuff.

Would you be interested?

And I said, to be honest, I've never
heard of Service Now Day of my life,

but will I get a job if I say yes?

Oh.

And he's like, well, you get
the job either way, but that

would be a great spot for you.

I was like, okay, perfect.

So I joined their ServiceNow team.

And it was, , headed up by
this awesome guy named Ben Tr.

So shout up to Ben.

He's awesome.

And he and I kind of worked alongside
each other, I think it was around

six to eight months on ServiceNow.

So he taught me the ropes.

He was the one that kind of brought me
into like knowledge and things like that.

And then he actually kind of quickly
left to join another company.

So all of a sudden I went from this
like new hire kind of right outta

college to someone that was leading.

A good portion of the ServiceNow
trajectory at this, at this company.

CJ: Wow.

Lauren: Uh, which on paper was I
think terrifying initially as well.

Cause I was, you know, he had said such
a strong precedent and he had really

positively turned the trajectory of
ServiceNow in his tenure at this company.

And so I, there was very big
shoes to fill and luckily it

worked out pretty positively.

CJ: Yeah, it, it sounds like it did.

one thing you said during that is that
you talked about, um, how, uh, com

psci affects the business more than
any of the other applicants, right?

And that's, if anybody, anyone who's
listening following along, with CJ

and the Duke, everyone knows that
that's kind of like my thing, right?

It's, it's talking about how
technology helps the business

and, helps it grow, right?

So the business can, realize, more value.

Out of their technology investments
and just more value in general.

talk a little bit more about how you
came to be centered along those lines.

Lauren: Well, it was something that I've
always kind of been keenly aware of.

Cause I think in actuality I'm probably
more of a business oriented person

than like a tech oriented person.

I think it's very interesting to see how.

The addition of one piece of technology
or, or the removal right of one piece

of technology can greatly transform
the production and the orientation and

overall even organization of a company.

And I've loved seeing
how that has played out.

I love seeing how that played out
in like case studies in college.

That was always what
really piqued my interest.

And so ServiceNow, as I learned
more about it, seemed to be a really

interesting origin point between the two.

Not only could I build, but I could
build in a way that also allowed me

the capacity to easily see the overall.

Impact of what I was building, right?

There's so many powerful like
builtin analytics and reporting

aspects of ServiceNow that you don't
have to spend, six to eight months

building as well to see the overall
impact of even simple applications.

So that was something that really,
really piqued my interest too.

CJ: Oh, that's awesome.

I totally agree with you, right?

Like it's, the impact of the platform
is one of those things that is really

hard to, uh, broadcast to folks.

Right?

Until they, until they actually see it.

Lauren: Absolutely.

Yeah.

Duke: I hope that, you're
allowed to talk about this.

If not, we can come up
with another question.

But, what was one of the coolest things
that you built on the customer side?

Lauren: Ooh, I think probably the
thing I was most proud of, and I think

it's probably something I'm most proud
of to this day, was there was one

holiday season, so the owner of this
company was very generous and he would

always give every employee like a
Christmas gift, which was very sweet.

And one year he gave us all 50.

Bit.

So I was like, oh, I like,
that's such a cool gift.

And like we were all trying to be healthy.

Like there was a bunch of
like health challenges like

that were being done in it.

I don't remember whose idea it was.

I definitely don't wanna take credit
for it, but someone had suggested

, a step counting a tho, right?

Like, oh, who can get the most steps?

And we do it to some extent for charity
cuz we had been given these Fitbits,

so we kind of wanted to give back.

And so I, I was like, I think we could
track that on ServiceNow at the time.

I'm trying to remember.

I don't know how many custom maps we were
dipping our toe into, but it wasn't many.

And so I think when we mentioned
ServiceNow as a, like a governing

body of this challenge, it kind of
raised like a couple of eyebrows.

I'm like, yeah, sure.

Okay.

But um, Luckily at the time, they
still had that in its old version,

the share website, and someone had
built a semi working integration with

Fitbit and I was like, oh, perfect.

And so I fixed what
wasn't working in that.

We got everyone hooked up and
so we had this big TV that

would show everyone's steps.

On the

CJ: That's awesome.

Lauren: that's what we ran
the charity thing through.

To be honest, I nuked our company's like
productivity for the, I think it was a

two week challenge cuz everyone would
just go on breaks and start like walking

around cause they were so competitive.

Uh, but all in all, it was for charity.

So I guess it was in the
long run, a good thing.

Duke: Nice.

CJ: is, that's awesome.

Lauren: It was definitely fun.

CJ: So you built this Fitbit
challenge, and you onboarded

the rest of your, , colleagues.

And so what made you decide to do it
with ServiceNow, Versus anything else?

Lauren: Well, I think it was ultimately
the speed in which we could do things.

the IT company at the customer
I worked for was so amazingly

productive, but they were almost kind
of a victim of their own success.

The backlog for what they wanted to
do was so long because they were so

good at, at creating stuff, right?

, and so that was something
that we are almost.

Unshackled from like on the
ServiceNow team for the things

that ServiceNow could do.

Obviously it can't do everything,
but for the things that we could

contribute to, we could do them at such
a smaller timeframe just because we

were developing on a platform, right?

We weren't having to build things full
stack from the absolute ground up.

, and that helped tremendously as far as
like a bargaining chip of why things

should maybe go on the service now.

Even it was a non-typical use
case for the platform to have.

CJ: Yeah, no, I totally agree
with you when I'm thinking, when

I have new ideas, that's totally
how I think about it as well.

It's like, well, ServiceNow platform
has all this stuff already built into,

it's got emails, it's got recording,
it's got, you know, scripting platform.

I already have the skillset.

Right.

And, and it already applies there,
you know, and rest integrations are

easy, the whole nine yards, right?

So it's like, yeah, of course.

I'm gonna look at ServiceNow first
before I think about building.

Something and like note js or
whatever, or react or what have you.

So yeah, no, that, yeah, it
makes a lot of sense to me.

Duke: So I'm kind of curious what a day
in the life of, looks like at ServiceNow.

do you still get to work on stuff?

Do you still get to build on ServiceNow?

Lauren: Well, it probably
depends on the time of year.

If you had asked me back in April,
absolutely not cuz that's only knowledge.

, but I would say that most of
the time, so currently I'm on

the developer advocacy team.

So basically our team contributes,
It's mostly content focused.

At the moment we're trying to
expand into more like collaborative

spaces and focus more on like
community and things like that.

But mostly we push out a lot of content,
especially around the new releases.

So currently we're, we have our
heads down a lot for Vancouver.

So I would say a day in the life for me
is that I usually start my workday at

around like, Seven 30 or eight, I catch
up on correspondence that I've gotten.

I, I'm traditionally like very bad
at getting through emails, so I try

to do it first thing in the morning.

We usually have a couple
of team catch up calls.

I would say probably like anywhere
between one to three hours worth,

depending on the day of, the week per day.

And then the remainder
is kind of up to you.

One thing I really like about this
team is that you kind of run it

like your own, uh, like micro.

Company, I guess micro brand.

for example, I really love
advocating flow designer.

I think it's a grossly underused for
the platform that I wish everyone used.

So traditionally, I spend a lot of time
learning about its newest functionality,

creating videos or live streams for that.

Talking to the product side of the
team about what I've said correctly,

what I could include about future
stuff, et cetera, and kind of

guiding my content around that.

CJ: That's,

Duke: Designer.

I love it.

I, I, I just had that aha
moment about flow Designer like,

Lauren: Right.

Duke: the, all the years
are blending together.

So I don't know if it was like two
years ago, three years ago, or one year

ago, but there's a certain point I'm
like, I want, I really wonder if flow

designer is where we need it to be.

And I just like picked it up
and, it was hard to figure out

at first, but then after it was
like hours of catching up, right?

It was like four hours later
and it, it's like, oh yeah.

Lauren: Absolutely.

And if I, gosh, I'm so tempted
to spoil something cause there's

something coming out in Vancouver
that I, I, I really can't say it

cause we, we gonna have done tech now.

But I will say this as a teaser to get
people on my side for flow designer.

There is something that has
been heavily requested for years

that is included in Vancouver.

And that's all I will say,
but get excited for it.

You've heard it here first.

Duke: down my list here.

Lauren: Yeah.

CJ: Yeah.

It's so funny you mentioned Flow
Designer, your passion for it, right?

Because, uh, Robert and I have
a mutual client that is running

ethically, their entire instance
off of Flow Designer, right?

Like the, yeah.

They've replaced like any instance of
scripting, so any business rules, , any

workflow, any integrations, APIs
that running through flow design,

like every single thing that.

Duke: it shocked me how effectively
it could replace business

rules and scheduled jobs.

You know what I mean?

Just, it's not just, , it's not just
a replacement for legacy workflow.

It's a replacement for
so many other things.

I do have a daydream though, and if
you could just kind of like maybe,

you know, if you ever see the product
managers just maybe whisper it

Lauren: sure.

Yeah.

Duke: now I know UI actions can basically
use code to run flow, but not super

clear and easy, but it would be really
cool if there's one flow trigger

action that was like a UI action has.

Lauren: Ah, okay.

I'll, I'll pass it along for sure.

That's, Hey, that's part of my
job too, that that's what I like

about this position is that we work
closely with the product team too.

So I will pass that along.

Duke: Or even like, script actions

Lauren: Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Duke: looks for an event.

It's like a business
rule based off an event.

Like I was, why don't they
do that in flow Designer?

Lauren: You're just making me wanna
spoil stuff, but I can't, I can't.

I'll get in so much trouble.

Duke: I guess you could though.

Could you just do like a record
create and this event table

or something like that, and.

I guess you could do it that way.

Lauren: I understand what
you're saying though.

You, you want it built.

There should be like I understand
what you're saying though, like

it'd be nice cuz it's such a
UI focused environment, right?

If that was somehow more
embedded into the ui.

Absolutely.

Duke: Yeah.

CJ: Yeah, absolutely.

And especially , with the move towards,
, kind of low-code, no-code, right?

Like allowing folks to say,
okay, click this button and

then execute this thing, right?

And you just pick it from a list.

Like, I think that would really
help a lot of folks out, right?

Like, you know, yeah.

Us old, old school folks, right?

Like, we're always like,
no, I just wanna write code.

Duke: that's, I mean, that's why
I love about it too, is I have

a lot of like developer friends,
. And they're just like, why?

Why?

Like I can just code it faster.

Yes.

But you can't give it to
somebody who can't code after,

Lauren: Oh, absolutely.

That's,

Duke: this flow designer
to like almost anybody.

Right?

Almost anybody.

And they'll be able to cobble it together.

Lauren: That'll always be my biggest
selling point when I hear, cuz I used

to hear that argument, especially
when I was on sales all the time.

We can't use flow designer
because I can code faster.

And I said yes, but if you print out
your code, could your boss understand it?

Or your boss's boss understand it And nine
times that tan, the answer was maybe no.

But if you print out a flow designer,
it verbatim tells you what it's doing

and you barely have to label anything.

So it's a nice, it's a nice selling point.

Duke: And there literally is
a competition in time there.

Right?

Because you.

Lauren: Mm.

Duke: When I say I can code things
faster, that means there's a monetary

price to the time I'm saving.

But what people don't forget and we
know that they forget, sorry, what

people do forget and we know they
forget it because ain't nobody out there

doing documentation at scale is, is

Lauren: What whatcha saying?

You saying developers don't,
don't annotate and don't document.

No, never.

Duke: uh, and I don't put that
on the feet of developers either.

I put it on the feet of
the entire deployment team.

From the most junior ba all the
way up to the engagement manager.

It's all their fault.

Um, but, but there's a
speed to inheritance.

Not just a speed to deploy,
but a speed to inheritance.

So x amount of times during a
product's life, the people who

are in charge of it will change.

And how long is it gonna
take them to get it?

Lauren: Absolutely.

Duke: And can I just go
on a little tiny rant?

A little tiny one.

Lauren: It's your show.

Go for all thes you'd like.

Duke: It's just ju if we just imagine
if these things are placed in the

types of workflow that everybody
dreams, it could be life sciences,

pharmaceutical, manufacturing,
manufacturing it, all right, like that.

Time to inheritance is gonna matter
because when the things fail, the

failure is gonna be measured in lives.

Lost, not time wasted, money wasted.

Lauren: Absolutely.

CJ: Yeah, I think it matters, right,
in those situations because it's a lot

easier to quantify, the lost value of
that inheritance that you were mentioning.

So yeah, like those situations I think
are really, really, really, really cool.

Lauren, you've mentioned, right,
like your previous sales background, I

wanted to touch on that a little bit.

So tell me what it's like
a day in the life, of being

on the sales side of things.

Right?

Cause you know, a lot of our listeners are
mostly on the dev side of things, right?

The implementation execution, right?

How does all of this look
through a sales lens?

Lauren: It was really, really fun.

I think I worked that job.

I think if it wasn't five years,
it was very nearly five years.

So after I joined, so I, I worked
with the customer and then I was hired

onto what was called demo center.

Cause I didn't have any sales experience,
but I had lots of, ServiceNow experience.

So demo center was like a
junior sales role essentially

to learn the appropriate skills.

So I did that for a year and then
immediately joined our creator

workflows specialist team as an sc.

So I'm, I was the technical salesperson.

So on the sales side, at least at
ServiceNow, right, they'll take a

technical salesperson and pair them
with a traditional account executive

or or regular salesperson that person
will control all of the aspects of

like the contracts, the monetary
aspects, the relationship management.

They'll more so own the account,
, which I really liked because I.

Never would have to deal with
contract negotiations or any

of like the money things.

I could just focus on
the value of the product.

, so I essentially acted as the ambassador
to the customer, to my salesperson.

I would translate the needs of that
customer to the products that would

best fit them to solve their business
problems or challenges or goals.

And then align that , with
my team for what that would

potentially cost or what they would
potentially need to buy or not buy.

You know, like, Hey,
you already have this.

Did you even know?

And sometimes the answer would
be like, We already bought that.

You're like, yeah, like here's
how you use it, it's great.

So, , that was more so my position,
but it was only about creator workflow.

So it was only about app engine and
building apps, which is very different

than every other sales team at ServiceNow.

Cuz we have all these great
products that are sold as like

those suites, so like tsm, csm and,
and uh, HR and all those things.

But those are essentially done
applications or application suites.

It's like the difference between selling
homes and, and selling land, right?

CJ: Right,

Lauren: you can build whatever you want.

And they go, what can we build?

I'm like, what do you wanna build?

And they go, I don't
know what we wanna build.

So learning how to handle those
conversations, , was very, at,

at least initially very difficult
because I joined the creator

workflows team when it started.

So there was no precedent, , of how to
handle those types of, of challenges.

CJ: the question that naturally pops in
my head after, hearing a lot of that,

and especially, you know, your initial
answers, , earlier in the podcast,

did you choose to like to land here?

Was this like intentional from you to land
because it feels like a really good fit.

For your skillset best based
on how you, , described it

earlier in the podcast, right?

In terms of like articulating business
value and aligning it with it, right?

Like this seems exactly that,
except at at scale for ServiceNow

to a number of customers.

Lauren: Yeah, I, I really just lucked out.

I was, because when I joined
ServiceNow, there wasn't a

creator workflow sales team.

And I, I remember thinking
like, that's a shame cause we've

built so many custom apps and.

When I went as a customer, when I
went to Knowledge, I thought, oh my

gosh, I'm gonna learn from all these
companies that have, that are, 10

times, a hundred times bigger than us.

They'll of course be
building crazy custom apps.

And at the time, that was
about 2016, it was kind of a.

Shattering moment to realize that
we were almost ahead of the curve.

And I was like, how is that possible?

, and so when I joined ServiceNow
in 2017, I was like, oh, I really

wish there was a sales team that
focused just on that aspect.

And then I just lucked out cause
it was created the year I kind

of finished up on MO Center.

CJ: Nice.

Tell us about the transition then from
sales side, then to developer advocate.

. And, having worked with you , on
that side of the house, right?

Like, you bring , this energy to
it that I, that I absolutely love.

So tell us how you move from
sales to, to over there.

Lauren: Well, I think it was more so
learning what I liked about sales.

So, , as an sc my job mostly was doing
demos for individual customers, right?

Someone would come in
with a goal or a problem.

, I would translate that into some
sort of demo, and then they would.

Buy or not buy.

Right.

And I didn't really understand at the
time, but a lot of the things that

I was doing as like pet projects,
, like for example, I was trying

to get better at public speaking.

So I was speaking at any
snug that would pop up.

I was like, I gotta get better at this.

And so I was speaking at
Snugs, not traditionally at sc.

Responsibility, but it was
something I liked doing.

, as we participated in conferences,
sometimes we would get

subbed in to help with them.

Again, not traditionally an SC
job, but I realized how much I

liked them, and I think the more
time I spent with customers, , And

that, I mean developers, right?

The more I liked that audience.

I think in sales you're oftentimes
speaking with leadership and

it's extremely hyper competitive
and , I think that I was fatiguing

a bit of the pace of that.

And also , I didn't really feel
like I had a lot of control over my,

what was quote unquote, my success.

Right?

That, and that is something that is
a, a homogenous problem with being

a solution consultant in general.

You as a solution consultant,
your value comes from your ability

to interpret the needs of the
customer into , the software, right?

But, But overall, you're still
always graded on the sales number,

which traditionally you don't
even have that much control over.

Pretty much you prevent the
sale from failing, right?

, oh, I prove that this thing is
valid for the customer, but I was

never part of like the contract
negotiation or the money, right?

But that was predominantly
how you're kind of graded.

So I was always feeling like I never had
as much control over my quote unquote su

success or fate as I would've liked to.

And so when this job opened
up, I was like, oh my gosh.

Not only does it have more focus
with the audience that I really

enjoy, but I do have more control
to live or die by my own sword.

And it was just a, a
really, a perfect fit.

CJ: Oh my God.

I love that.

There's a couple things in there that you
said that really resonate with me, right?

Like one of those is how you said yes to
taking , some of these responsibilities

that weren't typically in your, sphere
of, expertise or responsibility, right?

And speaking , as snus to better
your public speaking skillset, right?

Like one of the reasons that I
do the podcast , was to better

my public speaking, , and so
I totally resonate with that.

And then, at Knowledge, right.

A lot of what I was saying, and this
completely, I wasn't, I should have

gotten a check from this, from ServiceNow.

, but I, I, I completely didn't.

Right.

I was telling everyone, , say
yes to everything.

and it sounds you said yes to a lot
of things and that led you from a

place where you were doing well, right?

And that you enjoy to being able
to find what you would enjoy more

and give you more control over your
career, and being able to jump there.

Lauren: Yeah, , and I think a lot of
people thought it was because I kind

of, I Seinfeld it a bit, , because I,
I think it was either my last year as

an SC or my penultimate year as an SC
that I was the number one SE for the

world as far as overall like attainment.

CJ: Oh, mic drop.

Lauren: And that's the
way to end it, right?

CJ: Absolutely,

Duke: Use Seinfeld as a verb.

Lauren: Yeah.

Duke: Okay.

For the under, for the under 40 crowd.

Can you, could you
explain what that means?

Lauren: Oh, to end it, like your peak
ver versus end when you've trailed off.

I think that's a really
important thing, right?

Is to not let things spiral into a place
where they're no longer positive, right?

Um, so I, I was like, I still feel like
I'm doing well, but it's maybe not the

best matchup anymore, so I should at
least keep my eyes, o eyes and ears open.

CJ: This is so funny.

Like you, you're telling us right now
that you've left us the number one SC

in the world, and you're like, I'm still
like, I still feel like I'm doing well.

No.

Lauren: It really ha So there were,
there were two deals in particular

it must have been 2020, not 2021.

So it must have been 2020.

And there were two deals that I
had been working on for like years,

and my territory was changing.

And so I asked my boss, I was like,
well, if my territory changes and

those deals close in like January.

Do I get credit for them?

He's like, no.

CJ: What.

Lauren: and so I, I, my poor sales guy,
I was like, you have to sell these deals.

I was like, you have to.

I've been slamming away
for them for three years.

Just one of them, just
one of them has to close.

I don't care if it's both just one.

And then both did.

So it was, it was kind of like a
mini miracle that that happened.

and then our territory switched.

I was like, oh, whew.

Thank goodness.

CJ: that is, that is awesome.

Duke: Did you have any like skills
that you learned in the, SE side

of things that have served you well
on the developer advocacy side?

Um,

Lauren: I still remember my
interview for the, for ServiceNow

very vividly because part of it
was a demo, ? And so my, the hiring

manager had asked me, demo something
that you've built on the platform.

And so I demoed it as a developer,
? This does this and this does that.

And this is cool.

And I think it's cool cause I built it.

And so I could tell he understood
that I knew the platform very well,

but overall the demo was pretty poor.

And so he gave me some notes.

He said, Hey, how about you
orient your demo more like a story

from the person that's using it.

And he's like, I'm gonna come back and
I'm gonna come back in 10 minutes and

you're gonna do this interview again.

And I was like, okay.

Oh my God.

So I start, I start

Duke: pressure.

Lauren: but he was kind enough to
gimme the opportunity to try again.

Right.

And so, That was the first time I'd ever
really thought about a story oriented

presentation versus I think this is cool.

So you think you should
think this is cool, right?

And I think that as an sc honing
that skill is one of the best

things you can take away from it.

And it's something that I still use to
this day of the narrative of the demo

or the narrative of the presentation.

, cuz we're really story oriented organisms.

It's why books and TV and podcasts
are like also consumables because

usually they're oriented around
storytelling and technology

presentations should be no different.

And I think learning
that was most important.

Duke: I think it's a skill that
everybody should learn at a certain

point in their ServiceNow career.

Like there's a threshold of
attainment if you don't learn to

tell that story , like an SE does.

Lauren: yeah.

Duke: because , it is just convincing
people of larger scale ideas, right?

Getting them to agree to the
same worldview as you do.

And it takes understanding their pain
and it takes showcasing how their pain

gets solved and in what degree, right?

And getting them to, like,
getting it to say a back to you.

So they're like really selling to
themselves if you're careful enough

versus, you know what I mean?

Get them to sell it to themselves
versus you do feature functions

and it's like The peril of feature
functions is they can disagree with you.

You're like, I think this is
cool, and like, I don't care.

Lauren: Yeah.

Right.

And that's what my, that's what
the hiring manager was getting at.

Like, I understand you think this is
cool, but why should I think this is cool?

CJ: Absolutely.

It's funny, , so I, do therapy, right?

Like I get therapy, uh, with
my guy once, once a week.

And I like to bring that into the podcast
sometimes just to normalize it, right?

So folks know that it's not something
that you should shy away from.

It's real kind of, you know, something
I feel, I feel like everyone should

do it cuz it helped me immensely,
especially when I lost my mom.

But what I was talking about with my
therapist, just this past week was,

This entire thing, this narrative of
storytelling and how it both, impacts,

you know, ServiceNow, my professional
career, but also my, my political career,

? And it's two things , that I just took
away from that conversation, right?

Is one empathy, being empathetic.

With your customer and understanding
like how they perceive the world and

what their problem is, ? And so that
you can , help solve it better, right?

Because , you can't solve problems
that you don't understand.

Now, you don't have to agree
with the problem, right?

But you have to understand
it in order to help solve it.

And then the second thing is, a lot
of people say, I can't do sales.

I can't do sales.

Well, sales is really,
I'll just make you think.

It's their idea.

Once you understand the problem, once
you know the solution, then you just

gotta make them think it's their solution
and then the problem solved, right?

So, So I just love all of that and I
just wanted to kind of bring all of

that together, for folks listening,
because I know a lot of people

are so, intimidated by sales, but
really you learn to tell the story.

You have empathy for your customer, right?

And then you convince them that they're
just doing what they wanna do anyway.

, and , that's a good start.

Lauren: Absolutely.

And it's so funny that the word
sales has such a bad stigma, right?

Like, I understand where it comes from.

It comes from like,
oh, like the car sales.

Like, no, no shame of car sales.

But, but you know what I mean, right?

Of like, oh, they're just.

They're just trying to nickel and dime me.

However, the art of selling isn't
just necessary in a business sense,

but it's also necessary from a
career perspective of being able

to advocate for your own skills and
advocate for your own talents as well.

Like it's, that's just
selling too, you know?

Duke: And to some extent, I feel like
selling is fundamental to life the better.

you can get better.

So many different things in life.

By learning how to sell.

Lauren: Yeah.

CJ: Yeah.

Duke: It's just a way of getting people
to agree on a shared vision of the world,

CJ: Yes.

Duke: them to

Lauren: a better way of put it.

Yeah, we're, where's Ana's shared

Duke: Yeah.

And, and for, and for them
to take action on it, right?

It's not just, it's not just
that we agree, but you are also

gonna agree to do this thing.

And , there's so many skills and
disciplines in life that are like this.

And if you say I'm bad at
sales, it's like, okay, what

are you gonna do about it?

Cause if you tell me you're bad at sales
and you're not interested in sales,

that means you're not interested in
any other way you can better yourself.

That requires other people.

CJ: like these nuggets I feel
like are so incredibly useful

for our knowledge, right?

For our audience because there are so
many in our audience who are either just

starting out or they're developers, who
have never really had to sell themselves,

.
Or, or feel uncomfortable doing so.

. And I think just talking about
it in this way, kinda unpacking

it and de-stigmatizing it, , can
be really helpful for folks.

Duke: and there was a time when
, okay, like I'm somewhere in the

point of my ServiceNow career and
oh, I don't know how to do sales.

Well, there was a point you didn't
know how to do ServiceNow either.

Lauren: It's true just a skill.

Duke: you gotta do the hard
thing sometimes, right?

when I found out I had diabetes,
like how hard is it to go from sch

flubbing around in life to doing
workouts three times a week?

How hard is it to, completely
change a diet that you've been

strapped to , for the last 30 years?

All that stuff is super
difficult, but so what?

You gotta do it.

Lauren: Amen to that.

CJ: Yeah, absolutely.

Duke: Okay, let's lighten it up a bit.

Um, gosh, man, we had a
lot of dark stuff in there.

We had like mom's dying and diabetes and

Lauren: But it's real stuff.

Yeah.

It's not dark.

CJ: It's Right.

That's life, right?

Duke: Yeah.

I'm just not to cry.

, maybe with the last bit of the show is
like the Lauren that nobody else knows.

Lauren: Ooh.

Okay.

CJ: Yeah.

Yeah.

Duke: so I heard something about
anime, like a you're an anime

person or is it more of a, or a
Japan culture thing in general.

Lauren: I love anime.

I think it's a Japan culture thing.

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