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Dan Hope and Andy Anders of Eleven Warriors bring you inside the Ohio State beat every Wednesday with a podcast covering everything you need to know about the Buckeyes.
Note: This transcript was AI-generated and has not been edited for errors.
[Dan Hope]
Welcome into real pod Wednesdays. I'm Dan Hope joined as always by Andy Anders and joined for the start of this week's episode by Taylor layman, who longtime 11 warriors readers might remember from his time as the recruiting reporter at 11 warriors. But Taylor is now a master's student at Indiana and the publisher of bite-sized bison, a newsletter that provides data-driven analysis of Indiana football.
Also a perfect person to help us break down this top five matchup between Ohio state and Indiana this week. Taylor, it's a, it's a pleasure to have you back here.
[Taylor Lehman]
Yeah, thanks for having me on. It's, it's always good to work with you guys at 11 warriors. Uh, I know I kind of keep in touch with you, but it's been like five years since I worked there, which seems insane, but, uh, but yeah, no, I'm really happy to be back and, uh, you know, hopefully some people will remember me, but I don't know, that was a long time ago, so time really does fly.
[Dan Hope]
It doesn't feel like it's been five years already, but, uh, you are certainly in the midst of an exciting season covering Indiana over there. Uh, you know, we were joking off there before we started. Uh, I don't know that I would have guessed, uh, before the year that we would have been having you on a podcast to talk about a 10 and O Indiana team coming to Ohio state, I think we all thought Indiana would be better than the preseason and projections, but I don't know if anybody ever been Kurt Cignetti himself predicted that this was going to happen.
Just what has this been like to cover? Taylor?
[Taylor Lehman]
It's been really interesting because before the season began, you know, we knew that people around the program knew that they would be better. Like you said, because Kurt Cignetti was coming in, he was bringing a lot of his JMU team with him. It kind of felt like something we hadn't really seen in college football a lot, which is, uh, also kind of happening in Washington where, um, the new head coach is bringing not just himself, but his system with him and a lot of the players as well.
Um, and I thought that that was, that was interesting and also signaled some success. You know, what could the staff do with, you know, some big 10 talent. And so, um, there was optimism and a lot of fans were looking at the schedule and, you know, and, you know, people have been talking about Indiana schedule online, but, uh, but they were looking at the schedule and they were like, you know, this is, this is like going undefeated in that first five weeks being six to no, I'm like, okay, come on.
Like, like I, like I was also optimistic, but I was also, I also understand how difficult it is to go undefeated in, in college football. And you guys know that as well. Um, so it's, uh, I, I wasn't, I was trying to hedge my optimism coming into the season and I was like, okay, you know what?
I think seven and five is a good expectation, you know, week seven passed and I was like, all right, sure.
[Dan Hope]
I've, I've joked with Andy because, you know, I did a piece for 11 warriors before of a season, kind of predicting the records for every team. And I picked Indiana to go six and six and it was kind of the same thing. Cause I was like, I was telling people, I'm like, I think Indiana is going to be better.
I mean, they were ranked, I think the second lowest odds only above Purdue before of a season to win the big 10. And I'm like, I think Indiana, like I look at their roster, like, I think they're going to be pretty good, but I'm like six and six feels about as bold as I can go when people are saying they're going to be better than me. The second worst team in the big 10 and then six weekends of the year.
I'm like, God damn. I wish I would have been a little more bold with that because, uh, you know, now it feels like I was hating on them when I was actually trying to give them some love, but I, I think that leads into a good question because you made the point that Indiana, I think a lot of people are going into this game wondering, okay, how good is Indiana actually? Because I think we can all agree.
They are good. I don't care who you're playing. If you are 10 and oh, you're a good team, but Indiana hasn't played any team that is ranked right now.
I believe the best team they've played in terms of record is Washington, who is six and five. And so this is going to be a huge step up in competition for Indiana coming to Ohio state this week. Obviously we're going to learn on Saturday, how good this Indiana team really is, but as you preview this game, kind of what's your read on how capable Indiana is of competing with a team of Ohio state's caliber?
[Taylor Lehman]
Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good question.
And honestly, we've been like, like people who watch Indiana football have been finding out how good this team is as everybody else, because the schedule, if you look at the schedule really carefully, there's kind of a, it's kind of like a gradual buildup of, of competition level. Um, you know, Michigan was, was their last opponent. Um, and you know, Washington might be slightly better than Michigan.
They literally beat Michigan. So, uh, but you know, we've been learning new things about this team each week and that's, that's kind of a part of a year one experience. So, but, but yeah, I mean, like you and I were saying before we started a recording Dan, there's not a ton of talent on this team.
It's, it's more the system itself and the familiarity with a lot of these players have with that system, the culture that they've built here in such a short time, um, you know, Indiana, unadjusted for opponent, Indiana's number two in, in that EPA per play and number one is Ohio state. So, so it's, it's gonna be a really, I think it's gonna be a really good matchup. Even when you adjust for opponents, uh, Indiana is still seventh in the country.
Um, you know, as much as you can data-wise, but yeah, I mean, the thing that I go have been going into these games with is just how impressive the staff has been in preparation and, um, you know, mid game adjustments and adversarial adjustments against their opposing staffs and coaches. Um, it's been really impressive watching them. This is, this is not like, I know that Ohio state in, in several years, you know, recently they've played some good Indiana teams, like Indiana has played Ohio state pretty tough several times.
Um, this is not the same type of Indiana team. This, this is like, I know I've spent, I don't know, I'm kind of rambling right now, but I, I, the, the, the year that I spent covering Ohio state, I learned a lot about college football and a lot about the highest levels of college football and how those programs operate. Um, and how stark that contrast was between Ohio state and Indiana.
Um, but I will say Kurt Cignetti and the way that he approaches it and the way that he, you know, operates during games, um, the way that he, you know, gives messages to his players and coaches, um, the standard that he sets, like the unapologetic standard that he sets, um, it, uh, it feels a lot more like that Ohio state vibe than that Indiana vibe. And so when he said new Indiana, um, I started to believe it as the season's gone on.
[Andy Anders]
I've been a Kurt Cignetti, uh, fan since I saw him at Big Ten Media Days. I think anyone who watched some of our content around that time would probably attest to that. Um, and I, I just, I think, you know, I know it rubs some, maybe some people that aren't Indiana fans the wrong way sometimes, but I think it's great that he calls out, you know, the top tier of the conference, that's what you should be striving for, uh, if in one of these jobs, cause why not?
Why not strive to be great at a, at a power conference school? You have Big Ten resources and, and all this stuff, but kind of going off of what you said, you know, schematically, you look at this Indiana offense and especially through the air, third in the FBS and passing yards per game, 9.9 passing yards per attempt, uh, you, you get a quarterback in Curtis Rourke who has a lot of experience in from Ohio and he, uh, is having, I think probably even his best year as a college quarterback, despite the raise in competition, what's made this offense so dangerous through the air?
[Taylor Lehman]
Of the offensive line. It's actually, uh, really interesting because that's not something that you've been able to say about Indiana since maybe 2015, when, when Nate Sudfeld had his big year, they had Jordan Howard and divine writing, 2000 yard rushers in 2015. Um, the, the offensive line, the improvements there, the, the kind of unprecedented improvements there.
Um, but there has been some wear and tear on them. So, you know, the combination between the offensive line, um, I think, uh, in addition to that, I think both of their tackles Carter Smith and Trey wedding will, I think they're, I mean, they are some of the best in the FBS. Um, so that's, uh, that the offensive line has been huge, but you need the offensive line for the system to work.
And the system that they have in place just has, they're so deep at wide receiver, um, even though they've had some, some transfer, uh, horrible guys already, um, they, they've been way better at running the football than I think anybody anticipated. And, and, you know, we saw that their, their depth of talent, um, at wide receiver and, and even bringing Zach Horton in such a, uh, you know, versatile tight end, um, everybody expected them to pass a ton and, and, you know, be very similar to that 2019 season, even the 2022 season, they gave up on running entirely and just had Connor baseline throw, but the, uh, the offensive line has actually allowed these running backs to make some noise and especially against Nebraska. If you go back and watch that Nebraska game, the offensive line was insane against a pretty decent defensive front in Nebraska.
Um, so the offensive line has been huge, but yeah, the system, I mean, Mike Shanahan, I think, um, you know, if he does leave Indiana this year, I think that the toughest task in college football is going to be replacing him at Indiana because his, his stuff is just really, really, the, the, the well is deep and, and it just feels like each week we see something new from him and he, I feel like we're going to see something new for, from him against Ohio state too.
And so, uh, you know, we saw some, there are some things that, uh, they did at JMU that they haven't done at IU yet. And so, uh, I think, you know, I just, I just think the, the staff is just extremely good. They have Tinos and Sari as their quarterbacks coach.
Um, and he works closely with Mike Shanahan and, and, uh, setting up this offense, Kirsten, he's an offensive minded guy. They focus a lot on the quarterback. Curtis Dwork has been really solid.
Um, and the quarterbacks have all been good with this, with this staff, uh, historically and like immediately. So, and so, um, yeah, I just think that they're kind of their innovation. Uh, it's just something that I haven't really seen at Indiana and from an Indiana offense since maybe 2019 with Kalen DeBoer.
Um, and even then they, they didn't, they didn't have, they didn't reach the heights that this team has. So the passing attack is what makes Indiana really dangerous, but the running attack is also there, but on the same, you know, on the flip side, um, they did lose their left guard. So they have like their fourth guard playing a left guard right now.
Um, and that, you know, there's just been some wear and tear on the run blocking. And so I, you know, not a super great time for that to happen. And, um, yeah.
So I honestly, as you could tell, I could go on and on about this, about this offense, but, uh, but there, there are a lot of great things. I think, you know, they're, they push the ball deep down the field and the passing game. Not super deep, but you know, deeper than, uh, most teams do.
And they like to have, uh, their perimeter guys, uh, Elijah Surratt. He works super great on the perimeters. Um, Omar Cooper is really strong as well.
And then, um, they have two slot receivers who are really capable as well. So just the, the multiplicity of the offense is kind of, you know, a long winded answer, what I probably should have said at the beginning, but, but yeah, it's, it's, it's multiple. So anything you, anything the defense throws at them, they're going to be able to counter in some way.
And they have like, you look at the Michigan game, they started really strong. They had a lot of success passing. And then Michigan actually had a, they, they made some adjustments.
They really physical with Indiana receivers, try to take away the mid-level of that, uh, of the field. And, uh, I, you had to do whatever they could to run the ball and they weren't super successful at it, but they did just enough to hold off Michigan. And, um, you know, they've done just enough.
[Dan Hope]
You mentioned Carter Smith and I feel like he's almost kind of a microcosm of this matchup because you think about him, he's a central Ohio guy, a guy that Ohio state really didn't recruit. And now you talk about he's, he's been one of the best offensive tackles in the country. If, if you looked at Indiana's roster and was like, who's one guy that Ohio state would definitely take and would go come start at Ohio state right now.
He'd probably be that guy. And it's ironic because he's from Ohio. He's a guy, Ohio state certainly could have had if it had pushed for him as a recruit.
But I think that's what Indiana has done such a good job of here is, you know, you, you look at this Indiana roster, it's not full of four and five star prospects, it's a lot of guys who are either lower rated recruits who have developed or their guys who were playing, whether it is at JMU or Ohio or other smaller schools that have transferred in to Indiana and have really just developed, they've just done a great job of finding the right players, putting all the pieces together and playing at a really high level. Obviously, Curtis Rourke's the big name. You mentioned some of the other guys on offense, maybe flipping over to the other side of a ball on defense.
Indiana's defense has been fantastic as well. They rank, I believe, third in the country in total defense this year. Who are some of the players that we need to watch on that side of a ball?
[Taylor Lehman]
The first one that comes to mind, especially with some of the path protection concerns for Ohio state on the edges is Mikhail Kamara. He's the defensive end, leads the conference and quarterback pressures. He's, he's been a monster.
I doubted he came over from JMU and he was opposite Jalen Green. And I thought maybe he benefited from that and that maybe some of his numbers wouldn't really translate to the big 10. I wanted to see him do it.
Damn, he's, he's done it. He's done it everywhere. He's, he's been great at, at, in run defense.
He's been great as a pass rusher. One of the best pass rushers in the big 10 and nobody's really been able to stop him. And so that's, that's the one that, that I would be watching if I was an Ohio state fan.
And then at cornerback, you have D'Angelo Pons. I also doubted him. He's five foot nine as a cornerback in the big 10.
He'll, he'll be going up a lot against Jeremiah Smith. So that'll be super interesting. He's a true sophomore.
Just his, I mean, if you look at his numbers in this film at JMU, it was insane. He was a lead and he's been, he's been pretty good this year as well. Top 10 coverage, cornerback in the, in the big 10.
So it's translating well, he still has more time to develop. So, you know, it's, it's encouraging. But I would say also the two linebackers, Jalen Walker and Aiden Fisher.
Aiden Fisher is really solid and run defense. And then Jalen Walker is just a freak athlete. He was actually on the freaks list, Bruce Feldman's freaks list.
And, and it's, it's, it's translated. I think, I think we could still see some more explosive plays from him, but he definitely makes his presence felt. And the linebackers are so important to that Michigan game.
They're, they're coming off their best game, those two, that linebacking duo. So, you know, when it comes to stopping the run, Indiana is the best in the big 10, according to EPA anyway. And so, you know, this major, a major contribution is those two linebackers.
But, I mean, I will say I'm just listening to everybody now at this point, but, but CJ West, I think CJ West, the defensive tackle, he's going to get some books from the NFL. He's been really, he has a big body. He comes from Kent state.
He, he's, he's gotten better as the season has gone on. And actually it's really interesting. Indiana brought a different type of philosophy on the defensive side.
They really are aggressive at the front, up on the defensive line. And, and I wasn't so sure that it was going to translate in one year, especially with the talent they had there. And it was such a drastic philosophy change at that position.
But CJ West, CJ West has been a big part of that. Mikhail Kamara has been a big part of that. And they're actually, the defensive line is actually getting better as the schedule is getting more difficult.
And so I've been really impressed by that. But yeah, if Ohio state fans watch Mikhail Kamara, watch D'Angelo Pons, and then just watch the defensive front for Indiana, that's, that's the big thing.
[Andy Anders]
Yeah. Just to add more context there, 31 sacks and 73 tackles for loss this season for Indiana, both numbers lead the big 10. I mean, seven TFLs a game.
That's a, that's pretty outstanding when you talk about disruption on the defensive line, but of course this is a massive step up in competition for Indiana. We we've all referenced that already. It with Indiana, the fact they haven't faced an opponent of this caliber yet.
What areas are you confident that will translate to a big time opponent where Indiana will still have a strength?
[Taylor Lehman]
Yeah, I mean, I think the defensive line will translate. I think they're going to make life difficult for Ohio state up front. I don't, I haven't seen, you know, obviously there's, there's an uptick in competition here, but just the way that this defensive line has dominated all of their opponents makes me confident that they're going to step up this, this weekend as well, that I've never seen anything like the Michigan state game that, that they had.
I've, I've actually never seen anything like it was insane. I will say the passing attack on offense, I think is, is something that I feel pretty confident in, but Michigan did find ways to slow it down. But I do think Michigan's defense was particularly built to do that.
You know, intentionally, unintentionally, that it's just the way that it was. And I don't know if Ohio state's is built the same, the exact same way. The defensive line for Michigan, for Michigan is just so, so good.
And I don't think, I don't, I don't think Ohio state's defensive line is, is, is as strong and as deep as, as Michigan. So that was a huge part of what Michigan was able to do against Indiana's offense. So the passing attack, I feel pretty, pretty, pretty confident in, but I mean, yeah, you guys are right.
This is a, this is a step up in competition, step up in talent. You know, this, this defense, Ohio state's defense, I think it's going to be a low scoring game because I, I just think that Indiana's, Indiana's abilities on, on the front or on the defensive front are, are going, I think they will cause some issues with Ohio state's offense, even though that is like, that doesn't happen very often for Ohio state. So especially, I mean, I'll even, you know, I was telling folks going into the Michigan game several weeks before the Michigan game that I thought Indiana had a bit of an advantage against Michigan in the trenches.
And to be able to say that is, that's, that's just not the case with Indiana. That's rarely been the case against a program like that, I guess a program like Ohio state. And so, I know it sounds insane to say, but I, I, that defensive line, it's, it is good.
And Brian Haynes has done a great job with it. So I feel, I feel most confident in the defensive line, second most confident in the passing tag.
[Dan Hope]
Going off of that, what do you look at as what are the things Indiana has to do well to have a chance to win this game?
[Taylor Lehman]
Yeah, I think they have to slow down Ohio state's running backs, which, which they've, they've done a good job and run defense. I think I actually, I do have a bit of confidence that they'll be able to slow them down, just prevent explosion from, from Judkins and Henderson. And then keep past, keep things in front of them and pass defense.
Because the Ohio state, their scheme is just so complex and the passing attack is something that Indiana hasn't seen. So that is something I'm definitely watching is, is Indiana's passing defense. But I think that they, they have to establish some sort of running presence on the offense because when they get into play action, that's when the offense is the best.
So they have to establish something there to make the play action effective. And Elijah Surratt has to be better than he was against Michigan. He had two drops, two huge drops late in the game.
And the wide receivers actually struggle a bit against Michigan. So I'll be curious to see how that, how that, how that works, especially against the safeties, Ransom and downs there. Those guys are insane.
But yeah, I, I think they, they have to establish a run presence. They have to slow down the running backs. They have to keep pass, passes in front of them, which I know is, you know, it's not super significant analysis, but that's, that's what I'll be watching for.
[Andy Anders]
You look at the history of Indiana football and there's not been a lot of times they've been in this kind of position to compete for a national title, a college football playoff berth, um, first 10 men season in your 10 and Oh, is it safe to say this is the biggest game in Indiana football history?
[Taylor Lehman]
I wouldn't, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say it's the biggest game, uh, in Indiana football history. There are some, there are some games that have really defined this program up to this point. Uh, there's the, the Rose bowl game.
Um, and, uh, for like the sixties, uh, you know, you have to dig deep to find them, but I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say this is the most significant. I will say it's, it's out there. It's up.
It really is. I, I, um, I think, you know, there are people at IU who have much better recall with, with those types of things than I do and have much more experience than I do, um, just because of age. And, uh, but you know, the, um, I would say in, in my, um, in my lifetime, it might be, and, and I would put the, uh, the Gator bowl up there in, uh, in 2020 or sorry, 20, 2019, I guess it took place in the 2020 calendar year.
But, uh, then the, uh, the, uh, pinstripe bowl was a big deal as well. Uh, going to that bowl game and, and playing the way that they did. Um, and I, yeah, I think, I think in my lifetime it might be the biggest game just because of what is at stake.
And like you were saying, um, the college football playoff, uh, you know, I think Indiana, if they play respect, respectably against Ohio state, which I think they will, um, I think it's still in the cards. So, um, yeah, I, I think that's why it's probably not the biggest game, uh, in, in program history, because if they, you know, they can have a close loss and still make the college football playoff in my mind.
[Dan Hope]
That was going to be my next question, because that's been kind of a debate around Indiana right now is like, does Indiana need to win this game in order to make the college football playoff? I agree with you. I think, I mean, if we assume Indiana is going to beat Purdue next week, which they certainly should based on the way Purdue's playing in my mind, you cannot leave an 11 and one Indiana team out.
I, it certainly helps if you at least make this game competitive, but in my mind, Indiana should be in the college football playoff, regardless of what happens this weekend, as long as they beat Purdue next weekend, what's kind of a vibe, like just among Indiana fans. Like, is there a bit of a feeling of disrespect right now that Indiana is 10 and oh, and yet people are still talking. Like if they lose this game, they might get left out.
[Taylor Lehman]
Oh yeah, for sure. For sure. That, yeah, I, I will say though that the Indiana fans, um, they, they remember 2020 and, and, and the way that that, the way that that went down, um, you know, that there's, there's, uh, I will say there, there's no, there's no, uh, shock.
You know, that, that, uh, that the SEC and fans of the SEC and pundits are acting, you know, the way that they are. Um, I will say that the Indiana fans, there's somewhat of a confidence, not necessarily in like, in like beating Ohio state, which, which obviously, you know, all fans think that their teams can win every game, but, but, uh, but it's more that, um, that Indiana has, I think, okay. I think what's giving them confidence is that the committee has not necessarily responded to this discourse, uh, between the SEC and the big 10 and possibly leaving Indiana.
Indiana is fifth right now. Like that's, it's notable. And so I think that gives them confidence, um, strangely and, uh, but I also think that, uh, you know, Indiana passes both the eye test and the analytics test.
Like the first thing that comes to my mind when I think about, uh, you know, what separates Indiana from the teams that they have played, I mean, they they're winning their games by like 30 points, uh, per game, which is larger than some. They're more than some teams are scoring offensively, like most teams, actually at that one point they were, their margin was larger than the points per game totals for all, but 30 teams, I think. So they're crushing the teams that they're playing.
And, and, but the first thing that comes to my mind is the end of the Washington game, it was here, the game day game. And they, they were up by 14 and they just decided, you know what, we're just going to end the game here. There were six minutes left.
They're deep in their own territory. They just ran the ball down Washington's throat. Washington has a decent defensive front and they just ran the ball right at them and drained out the clock.
They didn't even try to score there. They just decided the game was over. They're just going to end it now.
And, and I just thought that's, that's what good teams do, especially against a team like Washington. Washington, like you said, they're six and five. Um, I still think they're a decent team.
Analytically, they're a decent team. Um, and, and to do that to them is I thought that showed that's when I really started to like, think like, wow, this is this team, like they might actually push for this and here they are. Um, so yeah, I think, I think that there's just a lot of evidence to suggest that Indiana belongs here.
And, and, you know, I could see, you know, I, I could, I could concede some ground if, if they, you know, have somewhat of an embarrassing loss to Ohio state, but, um, if it's a close game, which I think it will be, um, I think if, even if they lose, I think Indiana is, is, is okay.
[Andy Anders]
You said close game. Dan and I are going to give our score predictions at the end of the show. How do you see this game playing out and give a score if you have one?
[Taylor Lehman]
Yeah, yeah. I haven't really thought about a score, but I'll say that, um, I, I, I think it's gonna be a defensive game. I think, um, Indiana has like, honestly, surprisingly to me, they, their defense has really been sometimes what they've been able to lean on.
And, and so, um, I think Ohio state's defense is super, super strong. Um, Indiana is going to struggle. Uh, I think it's going to be, I'm, I'm such a, I'm a football nerd, man.
I like watching these coaches go back and forth and watch the adjustments that they're making. And this has been so much fun. But finally seeing this as an Indiana, uh, like a observer, I don't really call myself a fan, but, uh, an Indiana observer, um, just seeing like actual competent adversarial gameplay has been so much fun.
Uh, so I think that the coaching gap is a little closer than people would assume between these two teams. And, uh, defensively, I think that's where it's, I think that's where both these teams will shine. And, um, you know, maybe one of them hits 20 points.
I just think it's going to be very low scoring. Um, so if I were to give a score, I'll say, you know, uh, 24, 17, uh, Ohio state.
[Dan Hope]
Well, Taylor, we want to thank you so much for your time. Great insight on Indiana football. Let everybody know where they can find your work.
[Taylor Lehman]
Yeah. Yeah. A bite-sized bison.
I know it's a weird name. The bison has something to do with the Indiana program. So bite-sized bison, uh, the, the link is at Substack.
So bite-sizedbison.substack.com. Uh, I do some big 10 stuff there too. It's not just Indiana.
Um, so, uh, if anybody wants to go explore that, it's a feel free.
[Dan Hope]
Yeah. I know I read just before we started here, you're going to have a big Ohio state, Indiana preview on Thursday, and that is going to be free for everyone to read. So, uh, you know, while you're checking out what we have to write on 11 warriors, make sure you're checking out what Taylor has to write on bite-sized bison as well for the Indiana perspective of this top five matchup.
Taylor. So glad that you could join us today. Uh, thanks so much.
And, uh, I'm sure we'll be in touch and enjoy the game on Saturday.
[Taylor Lehman]
Yeah. Thanks for having me on.
[Dan Hope]
Well, we recorded that segment with Taylor before Seth McLaughlin suffered his Achilles injury as was reported Tuesday night. And so I would have to say I was feeling a little bit more confident that Ohio state would be Indiana then than I am now. I still think Ohio state will be Indiana, but certainly, uh, the challenge that we already knew it was going to be of playing the Hoosiers ramped up even more now as Ohio state has to break in a new starting center for this game.
[Andy Anders]
Absolutely. And Taylor talked about how good Indiana has been in the trenches this year. Big games are won and lost in the trenches.
And I was feeling good about just the fact that Indiana's defensive line hadn't really seen a challenge to the level of Ohio state's talent and yes, there's other great offensive lines in the big 10. Not that Ohio state was in a great situation before the Seth McLaughlin injury, but it had been finding a footing on the offensive line and they have those bodies up front, those prospects, those proven talents that they were one of the better offensive lines in the conference this year. Still might be, but this is a challenge against this Indiana defensive front.
When you talk about Kamara, when you talk about all the disruption, when you talk about leading the conference in sacks and tackles for loss, that the new guy, whether it's at center or left guard, depending on what they do with Carson Hensman and moving him over to make room for whoever fills in for Seth McLaughlin ultimately, that new guy has a massive, massive challenge at his feet and only a few days of practice to prepare.
So that's going to be the number one storyline now entering this game. And it was already a storyline we were following before that injury.
[Dan Hope]
Yeah. When we, we initially were talking about this in the first segment we recorded for this, I think we had offensive line as maybe the number two concern for Ohio state going into this game. Now it's unquestionably number one.
We did talk a lot more about that on our press coverage episode, which you can also find on our YouTube channel, 11 warriors.com. So you want to hear more talk about the offensive line situation without Seth McLaughlin. We talked more about that over there.
I think in terms of other questions going into this game for Ohio state, I think the other one that I look at is at cornerback where we've seen Denzel Burke and Davis Enigmanosin have their ups and downs over the course of this season. And I think this is the best passing offense Ohio state will have faced since the Oregon game. And so when I think about the defensive side of a ball, I think that's my big question is can Ohio state limit the big plays through the air that we saw Oregon hit against Ohio state, because I think if it can, I think Ohio state will have a good chance to slow down this Indiana offense, but with a really good quarterback in Curtis Rourke, uh, I think if you compare to their last big game with Penn state, I mean, one of the things I think really helped Ohio state's defense in that game is Penn state's not very good at receiver.
And so Ohio state had a clear advantage in the secondary. I don't think that advantage is going to be quite as pronounced in this game. And so I think it's going to be really important for Ohio state's cornerbacks to play the way we know they're able to play and overcome some of the ups and downs that we've seen from them, particularly with Denzel Burke in that Oregon game.
[Andy Anders]
Yeah, it was a career bad performance for Denzel Burke. We've talked about it numerous times, but really hasn't found the footing of being that locked down, one of the best corners in America type of talent that Ohio state expects him to be, expected him to be coming into this year. And I, for me, Indiana's offense, so much of what they do passing down the field is really good back shoulder throws from Curtis Rourke and spotting it so that his receivers could come back and make a play on the ball.
I look at what happened in the first quarter with Denzel against Northwestern and Bryce Kurtz is a solid receiver, but that was a back shoulder ball thrown that it really looked like Denzel was in a good position to make a play on. And he kind of slips behind him. It's just, it's a pass that it feels like Denzel breaks that up in the past.
And he's just not making those plays this year. They really need him to make those plays in this game. And credit to Ohio state's coaching staff.
I think Ryan Day took the right approach on Tuesday when he said that they have belief in Denzel, he thinks Denzel is going to have a great game. Those were his words. And you got to instill your confidence in that guy.
Denzel's a naturally confident person. We've seen it throughout his Ohio state career. He's going to need to find that mojo within him once again.
And not just him too. I think Davis and Igbenosin got to avoid the penalties in this game. Like it's crunch time now, all the flaws, all the strengths, all of it needs to culminate and come together and be BIA again, just come in with that mentality.
If you're Ohio state's cornerback room, have that swagger contest, every catch. Don't let anything easy to this wide out group. Um, because it it's like you said, it was our number one key to the game before the Seth McLaughlin injury.
And it's still going to be a very big factor.
[Dan Hope]
I think we both agree. Denzel Burke's going to be an X factor in this game. We certainly both agree that Carson Hinsman or whoever steps in at that center spot, and then if, if Carson Hinsman takes over, then whoever steps in at that left guard spot, all of those guys are certainly going to be X factors in this game.
Is there anybody else that you're really looking at as somebody who Ohio state really needs to step up or who can make a really big impact in terms of who wins or loses this game?
[Andy Anders]
It's for me, I hate to triple down, double down, whatever on the offensive line, but I think the matchup with Kamara is really important. When you talk about a guy who has nine and a half sacks this season. So I think Josh Fryer and Donovan Jackson are really the X factors together.
I think Ohio state needs that pass tackle tandem, that offensive tackle tandem, sorry, in pass protection to hold up those two. Donovan didn't have a chance to develop a tackle body in the off season because they didn't know he was going to have to play tackle. That obviously wasn't the plan.
And so there's a reason that he had some issues with Abdul Carter when Carter was just straight screaming off the edge, full speed, like that speed rush is what I worry about with Donovan, even as he's taken strides and gotten more comfortable at left tackle. He's a great athlete, but he was training to play guard and they're different positions. The spacing is different.
And when you have that space out wide against an elite pass rusher, like a Carter, like a Camara, it concerns you. And then that's always been Josh Fryer's number one weakness in his game. Saw it in the Cotton Bowl last year against Missouri.
It's popped up a few times this season, less prevalent than it was last year. Credit to him. He worked on it, changed his body in the off season, did some things to approach it, but it's still the number one weakness in his game is speed off the edge and in those pass rushing situations.
So for me, how those two hold up in that matchup is going to be key for Ohio state working downfield and doing the things it wants to do in the passing game.
[Dan Hope]
The other guy I'm going to highlight is Jack Sawyer, who I think is starting to become Mr. November for this Ohio state defense. Cause we saw it last year, finished the season really strong against Minnesota and Michigan, and then even in that Cotton Bowl against Missouri. And we're seeing it again.
I think these last two games that he's had against Purdue and Northwestern have probably been his two best games of the season, and we're really starting to see him come on and wreak more havoc off that defensive end position. And you think back to the Oregon game, you know, one of the biggest points of consternation with Ohio state after that game was the lack of pass rush, zero sacks. We've seen them play better, but it's, it's still these big games that remain the question mark for them.
Even against Penn state, the pass rush wasn't quite where you'd like to see it to be. And so I think we talk about that, that pass defense. It's not just the corners of a secondary.
It's also can Ohio state get home? Can it make big plays in the backfield to get Indiana off schedule? And I think Jack Sawyer of a way he's playing right now, along with JT to a mole, wow, you want to see both of those guys really affect this game, make an impact on this game.
However, they do could go a long way toward how Ohio state's defense plays and whether or not Ohio state wins this game with that it's time for our score predictions, Ohio state, uh, favored to win this game by multiple scores, despite the fact that Indiana is 10 and O coming into this game, we know that Ohio state, even, even with another significant injury, Ohio state still has the overall talent edge in this game, but we also know this Indiana team is really good.
So when you think about all of that, Andy, what's your score prediction for this game?
[Andy Anders]
It's tough because I had to consider whether my score prediction changes with the Seth McLaughlin injury. And I think my thoughts on the matchup remain the same. I am very hesitant about the offensive line.
Yes, but I think Carson Hinsman has enough experience. Whoever that next guy is, is going to be able to play well enough alongside him. I think Ohio state's offense still holds up to what it was going to be.
Cause in the end I see a talent discrepancy in this game. Indiana hasn't played a team near the caliber of Ohio state this season. And while I think Indiana is a good team, I think they just don't have the players and at the end of the day, all things being equal, the more talented team wins most games.
And as long as Ohio state is executing and bringing its A game, and they've shown up in these big moments in the past, and I do think Ohio state's going to play, maybe not its best game, but a really good game at least against Indiana in this game, as good as it's capable of, for me, I see Ohio state by two scores, I'm sticking with the same prediction I had before. Ohio state 34, Indiana 24.
[Dan Hope]
It's interesting because on Tuesday afternoon, I had checked the lines and Ohio state was a 12 and a half to 13 and a half point favorite, depending on where you look. And as we re-recording this again, late Tuesday night after the Seth McLaughlin news, those lines haven't dropped at all. Actually on draft Kings, Ohio state was a 13 point favorite.
They're now a 13 and a half point favorite. So at least the odds makers aren't necessarily looking at this injury as something that's going to have a major change, at least on how betters are going to bet on this game. So I'm there with you.
Uh, my prediction hasn't changed as a result of the injury, even though it is a significant injury. I am going a little bit more conservative than you, though, in terms of, I'm only picking a one score victory for Ohio state. I'm going 31, 24, four of a Buckeyes.
In this Indiana team, while I don't know if they're quite as good as their record indicates. I do know that this team coached by Kurt Cignetti, they're going to fight. They're going to compete for four quarters.
They are not going to make it easy on Ohio state. So I expect this to be a very close, very competitive game for 60 minutes. But I do believe at the end of the day, Ohio state's talent will win out.
I think having the home crowd on their side is certainly going to help as well. I mean, this is a, a game. I think Indiana will come into this game, believing it can win this game, but it's also going to be unlike any game they've played all year in terms of going on the road to play a top five team in a stadium with more than a hundred thousand people.
And so I do expect Ohio state to prevail in the end, but I'm only going with a one score projection of 31, 24 in favor of the Buckeyes, lots more coverage of Ohio state versus Indiana to come on 11warriors.com. We want to once again, thank Taylor layman for joining the show and giving us some great insight on the Hoosiers. Uh, stay tuned with us all week for more coverage as we prepare for the Buckeyes to host the Hoosiers and a top five matchup at Ohio stadium, Saturday at noon on Fox college game day.
It'll be there. Big noon. Kickoff will be there.
We'll be there too for a huge, huge game for the Buckeyes and we hope you all enjoy it and we'll talk to you again next week.