Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
This show is made for B2B marketers who are tired of the same old advice. Ugi Djuric, CEO of ContentMonk and B2B Vault, sits down with some of the best minds in B2B to talk about what’s really working, what’s broken, and what nobody tells you about growing a company. This is the show where people share their deepest insights and secret knowledge they wouldn't otherwise share on LinkedIn.
Ugi Djuric
And then, since you're very fascinated with Martek right now, how do you look at this entire commoditization aspect of Martek software right now? For example, interactive product demo software was a thing a few months back, a year back, but now you have 30, 40 of them.
James Colistra (01:22)
Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm noticing. I think that's probably the most difficult thing for, if you're a company like that is like, how do you stand out? because there are, there are so many companies out there. Like I first heard about user flow, for example. And, ⁓ I actually heard about them on a podcast and then, and then I went to Google it and I noticed this is one of the smart things people can do if you're, you know,
I guess it's a lower funnel tactic where you're Googling something and I'll say, ⁓ they'll buy the keyword for whoever you're Googling. And that's what this company product flows. They said, Hey, ⁓ we're better, you know, we're better than user flow or whatever. Try us. And they show the comparison page and all that. So I'm learning about, you know, those lower funnel tactics. Cause I come from, which we'll talk about. come from the world of Forbes, which the content was more top of funnel, but, ⁓ yeah, it's like, how do you say now? How do you, ⁓ differentiate yourself?
Cause there's so many tools and that's what's insane right now. And I think with AI and the fact that it's becoming easier, easier to build tools like these, you're going to see even more coming up. Yeah.
Ugi Djuric (02:52)
Yep, yep, yep. Definitely. mean,
we recently like built one product for like the first time. We like hired, I mean, like we are a content agency, right? But recently we hired a guy who is basically head of development and AI, right? That's like the title, official title we gave him. And like, you can create great products so fast right now. Like we created the entire, know,
James Colistra (03:02)
Mm-hmm.
Ugi Djuric (03:20)
chat with a knowledge base, ⁓ researching new content pieces, every in like three weeks, with the all admin dashboards, user profiles, registration flows, DMP campaigns, like everything. And I was really, really mind blown. But yeah, I mean, we're going to talk about the differentiation a little bit later. ⁓ Tell me something like you're coming from your...
James Colistra (03:27)
Yeah. ⁓
Thank you.
Ugi Djuric (03:48)
job background is pretty impressive. And my entire team, we were really fascinating while doing the research yesterday. And I'm also so proud of us for completing this entire research in this short period from yesterday to today. But yeah, it was a really funny journey. Anyway, tell me, you're coming from the world of legacy media companies, right?
James Colistra (04:04)
if you don't get it.
Ugi Djuric (04:15)
And these are the companies that exist for like 50, 80, 100 plus years. And compared to today in the modern, let's say B2B companies, like they have a pretty short span, most of them, right? Like, I don't know, 80, 90 % of them don't exist in a year, two years. And especially with that kind of an AI thing, you know, that's replacing everything so fast and a lot of me too products coming in. So tell me like,
James Colistra (04:20)
what comes your last years.
Yeah.
Ugi Djuric (04:44)
What can modern day B2B software companies learn from the legacy media companies? What are these lessons that we can all learn on longevity, staying in the market, business and the other stuff?
James Colistra (04:54)
I can't follow.
Yeah. I mean, I think the, the, biggest takeaway is, and it all, it all comes down to trust. And obviously the legacy media companies built that trust and developed it over, over years. Like you said, I uh, I particularly in particular worked at Forbes, um, which started in 1917 and the, the founder, uh, he was originally a reporter BC Forbes. used to actually hang out in New York city at the Waldorf Astoria Astoria hotel.
You know, you'd just be eating, eating, uh, his lunch or whatever. And he would, he would hear what all the other stockbrokers were talking about. Uh, all the people in the finance financial world. And then he started Forbes. And interestingly, a lot of people don't realize this Forbes was the one, I think the first, uh, B a business magazine or business publication to really do these in depth, um, long form stories about.
the Rockefeller types, these people that were really moving and shaking and the doers he called them. But he built up his following as a reporter and then was able to build up Forbes. it just, it takes time. And so from the perspective of, you're a newer company, you're a B2B SaaS software company or whatever, you don't always have the luxury of time to build up that trust.
So I think there has to be other ways that you can do, you can build the trust. And I think that's always the challenge. ⁓ Obviously social proof, ⁓ creating success stories, case studies, whatever you wanna call it. ⁓ Events are another, like I could talk about events all day. That was ⁓ one of our big plays. ⁓
research, leveraging research and data and things of that nature to really showcase the value that your company is bringing, but not only about your company, but creating the type of content that adds value to them that isn't necessarily about your company, which I can get into later as well. But yeah, that's kind of the way that I would look at it.
Ugi Djuric (07:20)
So basically all comes down to ⁓ having the most trust in the market and having original data, original researches and original content that basically propels that and helps you build that trust. ⁓
James Colistra (07:28)
in the end.
Exactly.
Ugi Djuric (07:40)
How would you approach trust building right now in 2025 and 2026 or whatever?
James Colistra (07:49)
It's like, I think it's like at any given time, only 5 % of your potential buyers are actively in the market to buy. And then the other 95 % aren't. So, um, the way to build trust, mean, you don't necessarily, think sometimes right now there's so much, so much, uh, noise and then in spam and especially, um, I mean, in the old, in the olden days, I should say like when I, when I was starting out and know, email was becoming a thing and.
Ugi Djuric (08:19)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no worries.
James Colistra (08:48)
as far as using it in B2B marketing, like people didn't necessarily send emails to random people. If you didn't have their email address, you know, just, it wasn't the norm. And nowadays like it's just becoming your inbox is becoming flooded and you're, you know, you're seeing it, you're seeing messaging and outreach everywhere. And I don't think there's anything wrong with what outreach have done the right way as long as it is, you know, especially with these, ⁓ you know, the
That's the difficult part though, with all these AI tools now is to make sure that you're doing it the right way and it's authentic. So it's all about the authentic connections, right? So I guess what I'm trying to say is if the majority of the people out there that 95 % aren't even in the market to buy, mean, right away, you have to be very careful that you're not constantly flooding them with product benefits and information and things of that. And it's just going to turn them off. So the way that I look at it is building up
trust by, you know, just being a valued, ⁓ a provider of value of information that's either inspirational, educational, does something to kind of change their perception of you in a way that's not necessarily salesy or related to the product, but it's like, that's interesting. I like what they, I like what they're talking about there. You know what I mean? So that to me is a way to build trust because if you're on the other end of the spectrum and you're constantly just
spamming, talking only about your product, ⁓ shoving it down people's throat, they're gonna start to question, like people, their trust meter is like, or they're sort of like scammy meter, whatever you wanna call it, they don't necessarily like that kind of thing, is what I've noticed. Yeah.
Ugi Djuric (10:33)
Make sense. ⁓ Tell
me, you mentioned events. And I would say there is right now a huge, ⁓ I would say like a public opinion goes towards that events are basically the future of marketing. ⁓ Like no matter how paradoxical that sounds, right? Because like, again, with all of this AI, like we have note takers, know, automated emails, everything like,
James Colistra (10:39)
again.
Ugi Djuric (11:03)
and getting to do really down deep to the human to human interactions and connections. It's really something that is going to take off very recently. So what's your approach about events? So first tell me, do you think for the companies is more effective to host events or to go to events and build partnerships there? How would you approach?
Let's say that you're in a B2B company right now, basically. Let's say that's the question. If you're in the B2B company right now with a decent amount of budget, right? So nothing extravaganza or nothing small, but a decent amount of budget, how would you leverage events for B2B growth? Give me your juiciest takes on this.
James Colistra (11:53)
Yeah. mean, I think it all depends. ⁓ it's not a one size fits all answer there because it depends on your overall strategy, right? If you're building a community, if you have an audience, mean, audience, dev audience development is one of the hardest components of event marketing is getting the people in the seats and getting the people to attend. and so that's why, you know, when we were at four, when I was at Forbes, ⁓ we kind of, that was one of things that we did for the clients, even if it was a custom event, ⁓
that we would, we, hosted events at our property in New York city called Forbes on fifth. Um, but we could, we could, we could do custom events anywhere. Right. But then we also had these temple events that we did throughout the year that were tied to different editor editorial franchise, uh, editorial franchises, like Forbes 30 under 30 is, is one big example. That was kind of our flagship sort of like Superbowl event. Um, and I think that what it comes down to is, um,
your resources, your audience, your, your audience dev strategy. Like I said, um, it's, it's a great way to jump right into event marketing by, you know, basically, and I don't want to say just like doing, you never just want to do like a logo slap and just say like, you know, presented by whatever the brand and the merge is going to show up or whatever. think there has to be a really natural integration at the event. And that's where, you know, the
the experiential activations come in and really try to come up with something that ⁓ adds a lot of value and is interesting. We did all kinds of things from having ice cream stands to ⁓ obviously you can have a tequila bar and things like that. But there was some really cool activations that we did ⁓ that tied to that specific brand. But I remember when I started at Forbes,
I actually started in 2014. ⁓ remember that that was the first year that they were starting or actually planning to launch the Under 30 Summit. ⁓ We launched it in Philadelphia first the first year. But I was lucky because I came to Forbes and my first week, ⁓ know, any job you don't have a ton of stuff to do other than just like onboarding and everything. And my boss at the time said, hey, ⁓
Randall Lane, the chief content officer and a couple of people from the events team were going out to do a site visit in Philadelphia. And I actually got to tag along with them because everyone else was just super busy at the time doing their work and stuff. But I was able to see how an event is built from the ground up. And I walked around to all the different sites, like to be able to go to see like an open air. ⁓
It was called Piazza at Schmitz in Philadelphia is where we did the music festival the first year. to be like, Randall Lane was just a genius because he could just walk around, like see a space and kind of like think about like what, what, what he's going to turn it into, like almost like a paint canvas, like a painter taking canvas and figuring out how he's going to turn it into a work of art. ⁓ But I think that was a sort of an educational process for me. And I
dove right in, then from then on, I was able to be the liaison because I was so involved for that franchise. we built it up and we allowed so many brands. The McAllen was a huge brand that sponsored all of our under 30 events for many years. And then we moved it to Boston and Detroit and Tel Aviv and ⁓ Africa. So ⁓ yeah, the Temple events, if you can get involved in those, ⁓ you have an active audience.
already there and that's really what you're doing as as a partner, as an advertiser, the marketer is tapping into that existing audience, ⁓ versus, and maybe you're doing both where you're tapping to existing audiences and then you're building up your own events, ⁓ and bringing your own audiences to your spaces as well.
Ugi Djuric (16:01)
Makes sense. ⁓ So basically, so far, what we can conclude is having original content and having an audience. These are the two key pillars of any serious company that wants to grow. Now, let's talk about that audience for a second. So what would you say? How can...
James Colistra (16:16)
Yeah.
Right.
Ugi Djuric (16:30)
What would be your approach for ⁓ turning software companies into media companies? Because that's how you get the most audience and earn the most trust.
James Colistra (16:31)
Seriously.
you
Yeah, I think it's really finding a lane. And if you're going to be sort of a media company, you're not going to be New York Times or Forbes or whatever where you're just writing about everything. And even Forbes, we had swim lanes for each editorial, I guess, subject. So you had different subject matter experts. I think it's building because you're not
You're not going to be able to hire this huge editorial staff either. It just takes, you know, enormous amounts of resources. So what is, what is the, like, what is the niche or the topic that you can own? Um, and because again, it's not, you're not, you're not writing about, you're not a product marketing team. You're not writing about the features of benefits of, of your, your product, because that's not what people want to read about. As I said, 95 % of people.
aren't ready to buy. So if you're not ready to buy something, you're not going to want to sit there and read about it. So it's really creating content that's adding, adding value and utility into people's lives. And it could be, it could be inspirational. It could be educational. think, um, Gong does a really great example, you know, with Gong labs, because they're, they're using data and they're studying, um, they're, they're using the data about sales reps across the board and they're able to, to glean insights into kind of like the best ways to pitch.
and things like that. it's ⁓ providing or creating a bunch of content that adds value. in Gong's case, like it's not necessarily about the product, but it's just adding insights and adding value to people's lives and helping them solve their daily problems, really.
Ugi Djuric (18:33)
⁓ And tell me this, before anyone should start or invest a lot of resources into ⁓ many different editorials, content pillars, types of content, even smaller content campaigns, I would say everything starts with launching one kind of a content pillar that you wanna create.
James Colistra (18:37)
and
Okay.
Ugi Djuric (19:02)
testing on that, repurposing that one and so on and so on. When talking about these content pillars, can we colorate them to specific editorial publications that you had ⁓ inside Forbes, such as 30 under 30 Forbes, Shook, Top Advisors, that kind of stuff? How would you approach that a single ⁓ content editorial, content pillar launch?
James Colistra (19:02)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
extremely, extremely important.
Ugi Djuric (19:31)
process operations behind that in smaller teams.
James Colistra (19:37)
Yeah. So, so you're asking like, would they kind of launch their own content pillar or own like franchise, ⁓ around? Yeah. So I think that, ⁓ so you mentioned shook. mean, in the case with shook, we actually partnered with, a guy named RJ shook who, you know, he used to be a financial advisor for, for many years. And then he created something called the winner circle, which it was basically.
Ugi Djuric (19:42)
Yeah. Yeah.
James Colistra (20:04)
insights and ⁓ ranking, like he was actually created his own sort of ranking system about financial advisors that did qualitative and quantitative research. So even Forbes, who has been a pillar really in the, guess, business and finance world ⁓ for over a hundred years, we didn't really have a successful ⁓ practice when it came to the world of financial advisors. It's just like, it's a whole world in and of itself.
And so that's why we chose at the time to partner with RJ Shook and his company, Shook, to develop the Shook Top Advisor. it's basically rankings, you know, starts with the top advisor in general. And then Mia ended up launching other lists underneath that, top women, top GenX advisors, and a number of different subsets of the list. ⁓
So I think that's one of the things that you could think about is ⁓ partnering with, you know, a third party, for example, if you're trying to do something that's more quantitative or even qualitative where you're examining, you know, a subset of the market or in our case, it was financial advisors. You don't have to do it all on your own. ⁓ Forbes had the pipes and the distribution power.
But our editorial team was busy doing, you everyone had their own assignments, right? Everyone's busy. And so you as a B2B company, might not have, ⁓ you probably likely don't have an editorial team. So there's ways to kind of partner with existing organizations that whether it's a research organization or ⁓ maybe you're even partnering with another media brand to help fuel your content.
I think that's a smart way to go about it.
Ugi Djuric (22:00)
Make sense, make sense.
Okay, so so far, like we know how to launch something we know what things to create, right? Now, tell me this like the final piece of the jigsaw. I don't know how much contact you had with this inside Forbes. ⁓ But can you like walk me on how, if you know how the best
writers and editors in Forbes approach the actual writing and editing of great stories. Like how do they find them? How do they edit them? Because like in every piece of content from my experience, it's like 20, 30 % of the time it's writing and other 70 % it's actually research and editing, know, and all the other stuff.
James Colistra (22:42)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. I mean, the honest truth is the, ⁓ the, the, process for the Forbes staff writers is actually, it's very intensive. ⁓ it's, much different than if you're Forbes contributors. So a lot of people don't realize, so you have, ⁓ you know, I think, I don't know what the number is now, but the time it was like close to 2000 Forbes contributors who they aren't paid staffers. it's people like you or I who are subject matter experts.
and that I really launching that, ⁓ in the middle of 2000s really allowed Forbes to just scale and, created tremendous amount of content. ⁓ I mean, now there are so many different algorithm changes to Google and to Facebook and, you know, media publishers in general are struggling to get the eyeballs, but for the longest time, Forbes was crushing it just with the sheer amount of content because of all of these, ⁓ these contributors.
⁓ but I'll, I'll just get into the, so, so, so again, the contributors aren't necessarily, ⁓ they're vetted to a certain extent, but they're, they're, they're not edited the same way. It's kind of just like they're submitting their content. And then, ⁓ for the most part, it just, it's published as is. Whereas if you're a staff writer, ⁓ there's, there's fact checkers. ⁓ every article has to be, you know, extremely fact checked and double.
verified and researched and things of that nature because ⁓ a lot of that content ⁓ from the staff writers also gets printed and it's a different world when something gets printed, right? It's like, you can't really change that. So yeah, it's a whole different ball game. But we at Forbes had a CMS content management system was called Birdie. So that was the backend where even the contributors had access to that. And it for,
for an early point, ⁓ it actually used AI to help provide insights. I'm sure since I left a year ago, it's probably developed even further as far as like providing further and deeper insights into ⁓ headline optimization, just different things that it'll tell the writer of things to think about as they're editing or writing.
It does use AI, which is kind of neat on the backend on the CMS. Bertie is actually named ⁓ after the founder, BC Forbes. His nickname was Bertie. but yeah, again, just extremely diligent on the staff side as far as ⁓ editing and fact checking and things like that.
Ugi Djuric (25:35)
How would, in a very, very short, in a very few sentences, how would ⁓ Randall Lane approach writing stories?
James Colistra (25:45)
Well, Randall, he actually doesn't write a lot of stories now because he's the chief content officer. you he might, he writes the, the, the column here, it's a column in the front of the magazine. And from time to time he does, I think still write some stories, but, ⁓ I mean, I think he approaches it the same way, ⁓ any of the editors really do is, mean, it starts with asking a lot of questions and asking the right questions and doing the research. ⁓
Like any journalists, it's really about digging and, ⁓ trying to uncover, ⁓ what you, what, what most people don't know about that subject, right? What hasn't been said, ⁓ what is like the, what is a bold take or a different area that people aren't thinking about? ⁓ and that's really what Forbes was all about is the people, ⁓ uncovering the people behind business and.
people have a lot of different intricacies and quirks and sometimes you can't get them to share what you really want. And so you have to have a way of like getting that out of people. And that's why it is journalism, just like anything is a relationship business. And if you're a trusted journalist and you're respected, you're able to get someone like, know, Enil Amos or Donald Trump or whoever to kind of like give you information that other people don't have.
access to really, you it comes about, it comes on access. Um, but the other thing I should mention is I talked about, you know, being about people and in journalism is, is a people business. PR is a people business. You're pitching to people. But one of the things I think Forbes realized, um, I think it was right before I got, so I started in 2014. I don't know exactly what year they did this, but
They doubled down on every, making sure every cover has a face on the cover of the, magazine because again, business is all about people. And really the philosophy was that people have the power to really change the world, you know, through their own ingenuity. And that's really what Forbes was about. As I mentioned, BC Forbes early on when he, when he launched Forbes was doing these in-depth business profiles about people. So, ⁓
That's really what it down to really for me is like just being about people essentially. Yeah.
Ugi Djuric (28:12)
Yep, yep, yep.
Let's talk about stories for B2BCon.
James Colistra (28:17)
I mean.
Ugi Djuric (28:19)
I would say there is a ⁓ majority of the stories in a storytelling way that we marketeers usually like think about them when we say like storytelling. ⁓ They're great for marketing, they're great for improving awareness, getting engagement on socials or whatever, but most of them ⁓ might lack when it comes to the actual buying.
James Colistra (28:32)
we'll you in the next story.
Ugi Djuric (28:47)
when it comes to sales. tell me like how, what's your approach on creating a story behind the brand that both like, know, positions you top of mind in your market, positions you in the top consideration set, and also when it's time to close a deal, you know, helps close a deal.
you get what I'm trying to say? What would be the key elements of that story? Or how would you approach storytelling for B2B?
James Colistra (29:21)
Yeah. I mean, I think it's a really, ⁓ it's a balance, right? Because you don't want to, you don't want something to come across as, this is an ad. Like they're trying to sell me. ⁓ but at the end of the day, I mean, that's what any brand is trying to do. So it's like, when do you find the right time to bring in, to integrate, you know, the product and the features of a brand. ⁓ and it really depends on, on any.
particular brand and there's a lot of different ways ⁓ from a B2B standpoint, think ⁓ really for me it was about, well, one, think thought leadership was key, right? Where you're ⁓ sort of integrating in insights and quotes from the brands, ⁓ executives and top leaders. ⁓
But finding the right way to kind of talk about the product. mean, for every, one of the things that we always offered was for any type of custom content. I mean, we always did have ads on the page. So ⁓ that's a way to really drive traffic to that brand's site if someone is in the market, because there is at least 5 % of people are ready to buy and they do want to read more about your product.
potentially, you if you're doing content with a Forbes or, ⁓ you know, on your blog or wherever, LinkedIn social, whatever, wherever it might be. ⁓ you can find ways to kind of, ⁓ have called actions, whether it's at the end of the article or, ⁓ an ad on the side of the page where you're, you know, you're driving traffic. at some point you do want to drive them to your site to kind of like create a conversion. ⁓ you don't want it, you don't want it to be like,
overtly upfront and too salesy in the beginning because people will just turn it off. So that I think it's just to find balance to like finding the best way to kind of bring in that call to action. ⁓ and, ⁓ just not, not shoving it down people's throats. If that makes sense.
Ugi Djuric (31:32)
Makes sense. What did you say James? What's the future of Mark?
James Colistra (31:38)
Yeah, this is something I think about a lot is it's kind of where things are going in marketing. Obviously, AI is changing everything in terms of the way people are creating. feel like it's right now it's at a point where it's amplifying human creativity. And I think a lot of people were fearful, especially in the early days to 2023, 2024. Oh my God, this is going to replace me. It's going to take my job away.
I think that ⁓ the way that I'm using it is it's really like speeding up the process of getting to that aha moment of a creative ideas. It's helping refine ideas. It's helping analyze all the data and put it into the right formats. so for me, it's really speeding up, amplifying human creativity. But one of the things that I often think about is how fast technology is changing.
⁓ and how many new tools are propping up, but at the same time, the principles of human psychology are still the same as they were a hundred years ago, right? People still want stories. They still love, ⁓ people were emotional humans are emotional animals really. And, ⁓ I think there was a study years ago, I think it might've been like a Harvard research study that said, ⁓ 95 % of all.
decisions, even in the B2B side involve emotion. And so you have to tap into someone's emotional side because when they make a decision, I've been studying the decision making processes, particularly in B2B. ⁓ and it's really interesting how every decision is really made the same way. ⁓ in some regards, I mean, sometimes, ⁓ you know, there's a small percentage of which is just like completely rational, logical, and, know, we need this and we're just going to go with it. for most decisions,
the rational side of the brain and the in the, so, so, like the rational and the logical side actually comes together with the emotional side of the brain. And there it's kind of like creating this, ⁓ I think there was a guy that calls it fusion points, like a sales trainer. saw this. And so it's creating that connection really. ⁓ so getting back to what your question, mean, ⁓ marketing is going to continue to change from a technology standpoint, but it's never going to change.
the way that people are connecting to people emotionally and inspiring them, making them laugh, all the human things are really gonna stay the same, at least in my point of view.
Ugi Djuric (34:12)
How do you invoke those emotions for something that's really boring, such as B2B software?
James Colistra (34:14)
Thank
Yeah. Well, I think a number of companies out there actually are doing a pretty good job at this. ⁓ I saw one example was Regal. I think it's called Regal AI. It's like, you know, there's a hundred, there's hundreds of these, ⁓ of these ⁓ chat bot or customer service agents that are using AI. So they're actually, they're doing phone AI ⁓ CS agents.
and they're becoming, they're sounding more and more human, right. And, ⁓ they're, they're actually becoming more and more useful. ⁓ at the end of the day, I think there is a little bit of a pushback and people still want to talk to humans, but I think there's, there's a place for, for these, for these, technologies and that's especially as they get better and better. But one of the, I saw they, they did this really cool creative activation regal did where they actually, ⁓ they turned.
dog's ⁓ voices into ⁓ different, you could call a number and actually talk to that particular breed. So I'm a big dog person. So you can see like, I want to talk to a golden retriever. Here's the number. And they could go and have a conversation with his dog. They also did another thing where ⁓ they did like, ⁓ you could be the next voice of AI. And so like you call this number and you kind of like, it was.
really tongue in cheek and funny. It was like asking you questions and it was like, all right, repeat back to me. And then you had to repeat it back. It was like, you're going to be the next voice of AI. So they're doing all these, all these fun activations. And, ⁓ I think that's what I love to see is like bring fun and excitement into the world of B2B. It doesn't have to be boring and dry. ⁓ there's been a number of other companies. I know, I know, I know I mentioned Gong earlier. Gong is, is another one that, ⁓ early on said it doesn't have to be.
completely dry and boring. So I'm trying to learn about, don't know if you have any B examples, but I'm trying to learn of like other ones that are doing it right and not just being stodgy and boring.
Ugi Djuric (36:26)
Most of them are like boring ⁓ when in reality they should be bold, creative, playful. ⁓ I don't know for you, but I actually really like this webinar. It was at exit five ⁓ the other day. I think that's actually a very good example. know, competition style show, something like that on a very trendy topic. ⁓
James Colistra (36:34)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that
was how I met you for the first time or saw you for the first time. ⁓ You did a great job and I actually need to, I need to jump into that workflow that you shared. But yeah, that was really cool. And you brought a lot of energy into that. That was fun. Thank you.
Ugi Djuric (37:06)
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Tell me, James, what's your best book on marketing or business or something like
James Colistra (37:23)
Yeah.
So, ⁓ well, I think we're all kind of, we're all kind of disciples of Dave Gerhardt. So his, his book founder marketing is a really good one. ⁓ enjoyed that book. my, latest book that I just read was courageous marketing by a UDI letter. Gore. Did you read that one? It's, that's really good about, ⁓ just being, just being, ⁓ courageous and not being boring and coming up with ways to kind of look bigger than you are. They, they did it like a,
Ugi Djuric (37:41)
No, I didn't think so.
James Colistra (37:53)
⁓ Gong did a Superbowl commercial. ⁓ but what they, they actually just did it regionally instead of like buying, ⁓ you know, they couldn't afford obviously like a Superbowl as like, as an early stage company. And then, ⁓ they, they create, they took that ad and they, ⁓ kind of shared it with people online. So there's ways like that where you, for another example, you do a billboard and then take a photo of it. So like, makes you look like you're bigger than you are. Like there's all these tips and tricks that he gives.
in strategic ways to kind of ⁓ do B2B marketing. Another book that I read, and this isn't even a new book, but ⁓ Rayan Fishkin, the founder of Spark Toro, he wrote a book called Loss and Founder. That was like just from the perspective of a founder. was like, wow, that's like a really good ⁓ book. If you're a SaaS company and you're trying to figure out ⁓ how to be a founder, how to get VC money and things like that. those are the
the three books that I would suggest. ⁓ But also I mentioned Randall Lane, he wrote a book called The Zeroes. It's about, ⁓ it's like my misadventures ⁓ in the days where Wall Street went crazy or whatever. So a lot of people don't realize this, ⁓ prior to coming to, actually Randall Lane started at Forbes in the nineties and then left and he started
Two publications, one was called POV and then he started one called Trader Monthly and that Trader Monthly, so it was all about the stock brokers and traders. He actually launched 30 under 30 there. But then with the financial collapse and I think 2009 it shut down and then he ended up coming back to Forbes. But that's a really cool book that kind of like chronicles his journey like prior to coming to Forbes. So recommend that one.
Ugi Djuric (39:48)
Yeah.
Tell me, tell me James, I have two more very quick questions and then we are wrapping up. ⁓ Tell me, if I remember correctly, you have two girls and as you call yourself, you are the cheer dad, right? ⁓ I have one four year old son. ⁓ So tell me from one father to another, what's the best lesson you can give your parent?
James Colistra (39:55)
Yeah. ⁓
Yes.
Wow, that's a good question. I think it's obviously, I mean, it's common sense, but just like be present. I think the pandemic was really the best thing for me as a parent because I've been working from home since 2020. And I was able to actually go to so many different events, like it's still.
Like use those opportunities, like if you're picking them up from school to actually have conversations and, ⁓ and, know, just stay connected. But I was able to like coach T ball. ⁓ but as a parent, like my wife and I, one of things we always try to do is like have dinner together at night. And, ⁓ like we, did this deal, ⁓ after dinner, we, just sat up, like, if it's nice outside, just sit outside and have everyone put their phones down. Right. Like that's the killer is like, everyone's always on their phones. Like my girls are now 10 and 13.
And because it just goes, you know, it's cliche, but like it just goes by so fast. So always try to make time to kind of like have dinner at night and to like sit outside, talk, connect and all that sort of thing. I'm really lucky too, because we have a lot of family nearby. Actually next door is my brother and sister-in-law and they have kids and stuff too. So family is very important for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Ugi Djuric (41:37)
Nice one, nice one, nice one. ⁓
And the last question that I have for you, ⁓ how do you win at the game called life? What is that winning for you?
James Colistra (41:53)
Well, right now, honestly, I feel like I wouldn't win without chat GPT. Cause it's really amplifying, amplifying my life. But at the same time, you have to make sure you're not losing out on the critical thinking and things that, you know, you don't want to kind of like go into this autopilot where you're constantly just going to chat GPT. How do I do that? Like it's, it's, it's become like my replacement for like calling my dad. If I need to fix something, like I just, it'll tell me how to do pretty much anything.
If I'm having an issue with my website is on Squarespace, I'll literally go to chat. Why can't I fix this? And sometimes most of the time it gives me the right answers. Other times I still have the YouTube it or whatever. But, for me, it's, um, I still, I feel like even with all this amplification through technology of, you know, creativity and ingenuity and things, I think you have to make sure that you're being really intentional about maintaining your own.
thought processes and your own critical thinking, you're not like, you know, we don't want to completely over rely on these tools because then we're going to lose out on kind of the inherent, um, create, uh, critical thinking, creative, uh, problem solving skills that we, as humans have really helped us stand out. Um, because I was thinking about this, um, I was, I was making my bed the other day and I was like, you have, you have to be intentional and,
Maybe have moments throughout the day. Maybe it's when you're making your bed or when you're brushing your teeth where you're just like still thinking on your own and not like, you know, going through different, ⁓ coming up with your own ideas and going for a walk or taking a shower or whatever it is. Like still think. We don't want to like leave all the thinking to the AI because ⁓ that's not what it's for. For me, humans do the thinking. We put the input.
into the AI and it helps us analyze it. It's like a kaleidoscope. takes all this input and turns it into something else. But we still have to be the ones doing the thinking. So that's kind of the way I approach things.
Ugi Djuric (43:59)
Yep, definitely. Actually,
I would agree with you. I was also recently like, ⁓ I'm very scared of AI, right? Not in terms of, you know, the popular talk, like they're going to, you know, take over the world or that kind of stuff. No, I'm actually scared that with like extensive use of artificial intelligence, we as a people might become
number or, you know, less capable to do certain stuff. Right. For example, like, I don't know, but very, very stupid example. I caught myself yesterday. think, you know, one coworker, he sent me a three minute long voice message on Slack. And I was like, hell no way I'm going to listen to three minutes. Right. I mean, three minutes, like that's eternity. And I was like,
James Colistra (44:30)
Yeah, yeah.
Ugi Djuric (44:54)
Okay, copy, copy transcript from Slack, go to Chatch-GPT and like, give me the summary of this. Right. And then like, that's a very stupid example. Right. But there are many, many, many, many other stuff, you know, it even, you know, comes to the, you know, ⁓ moment where, for example, I have two sentences and I go to Chatch-GPT and say, you know, make this better. Right. Make these two.
James Colistra (44:56)
Transcript. Yeah. It's true, yeah.
Bye.
Ugi Djuric (45:23)
two sentences like more powerful than how I wrote them, right? I mean, we might end up losing, you know, the ability to do specific things. And another ⁓ fear that I have is that many people in real life will start talking the way how AI writes.
James Colistra (45:27)
Right. ⁓
Yeah.
Ugi Djuric (45:50)
That's also something that I'm very, very, fearful about. ⁓ James, ⁓ this was a hell of an episode. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you very much for being here today.
James Colistra (45:50)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, thanks for having me, man. was awesome. I look forward to hearing in your other shows too. Thank you.
Ugi Djuric (46:11)
You're amazing. You're amazing man. Thank you very much.
James Colistra (46:13)
Ready?
this is edited and last version of transcript, this will be published..
take a look on show notes of ep with melissa and make me show notes for ep2:
01:00 – Are we in the era of B2B commoditization? - Melissa explains why most content, software, and even products feel the same - and what to do about it.
03:45 – Why most B2B companies shouldn’t exist - A blunt take on what separates the brands that survive from those that won't.
06:00 – You’ve got a great product and money in the bank - now what? - The 3 must-do moves for early-stage SaaS brands that want to win attention and trust.
08:50 – Building a media company inside your company - Melissa breaks down how she helps brands become the #1 news source in their space - and why blogs aren’t enough.
12:30 – Creativity in B2B: how to not be boring - Why most ideas die in meetings, how to build content that actually gets attention, and how ClickUp nailed their creative.
16:00 – The future of content, websites, and SEO - Why your website might not matter soon - and what replaces it.
18:30 – Why marketing is in an identity crisis - Melissa’s take on the collapse of roles, the death of attribution, and the rise of trust-based marketing.
22:00 – Outbound is dead. Here’s what works instead - A deep dive into why traditional outbound is broken—and how to rethink outreach around value and timing.
27:00 – What “brand” actually means (and how to build one from scratch) - Forget fancy campaigns. Here’s what really creates brand trust and momentum.
34:00 – What B2B can learn from B2C (but shouldn’t copy blindly) - The “chain of influence” model and how to use it without blowing your budget.
36:45 – Companies actually doing this well - Examples like Rippling, Card, and Melissa’s own clients.
41:40 – Quickfire round - Favorite newsletters, one book that changed her life, and her philosophy on “winning at life”