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Interviews with entrepreneurs and business leaders who’ve “made it” in Thailand. Real stories of ambition, setbacks, and strategic wins on the path to success. Built for founders and operators who want to win in Thailand.
Guests from the US, UK, Australia, and Thailand. Honest journeys and cross-cultural lessons. Inspiration for anyone building in the Thai market.
Apply to be a guest:
https://madeitinthailand.com/apply
Hosted by Scott Pressimone, a US expat based in Thailand for 13+ years and owner of Fractiond, a Thailand-based strategy consultancy.
#ThailandBusiness #ExpatSuccess #ThaiExpat
But what I'm projecting is the
edited highlight of my life.
It's nice to show the world a 4:00
PM in Phuket on a boat having fun.
I don't show the 4:00 AM worried
about invoicing, chasing a client, or
wondering why that email didn't come in.
There are people that
just generally want more.
They want more autonomy.
They want more authenticity.
The more freedom you want, the more
accountability you're gonna have.
And if you're not comfortable with
discomfort, you can't do this.
Passion is not a business proposition.
Your hobby is not a viable offer.
But until somebody's willing to
pay you for that, it's a hobby.
65% of business failures are cash flow.
Everything is your
fault, even if it isn't.
If you don't do it, it doesn't happen
So Steven, thank you so much for,
uh, joining me today, sitting down
for the, uh, podcast interview.
Lovely to be, to be had.
Thanks very much for taking the time.
Really appreciate it.
Of course, of course.
Well, so the people that know you or have
followed you, I think something that they
all know about you is that you're the
guy that lives in Phuket, is always out,
whether it be at the beach or sailing.
You're kinda living the life that I think
a lot of us that came to Thailand always
assumed Thailand would be, and some of
us couldn't actually accomplish it quite.
I, I wanna kinda hear from your own
words, like, what is the life that
you're living today in Thailand?
What is it like, and how have
you actually created this?
I'm… Uh, that's a very, very good
point there, and, and I think, to be
fair, I do all the things that I show.
So I do find myself out on a boat
at 2 o'clock in the afternoon.
I do find myself doing Skype calls,
Zoom calls from a sailboat, and
I… But equally so, uh, as I
think we'll touch upon, that is the
edited highlight reel, you know?
So I've achieved the things
that we set out to try and do,
and I've certainly achieved
everything I set out to try and do.
But what I'm projecting is, is
the edited highlight of my life.
I don't tend to show much of the 15 hours
in Incheon Airport that I spent last week.
I don't tend to spend much showing the,
the, the hours in a taxi or the admin.
It's nice to show the, the, the
world of 4:00 PM in Phuket on
a boat with my kids having fun.
I don't show the 4:00 AM worried
about invoicing or chasing a client or
wondering why that email didn't come in.
Mm. So there is, yes, absolutely
true what I'm showing, but there
is another side that's just as
important that gets to that.
Mm. And I think it's, it's very easy
to, to bask in the, the projection,
but without being cognizant or aware
of the work that goes into it and
the logistics and the not quite so
you know, glamorous and sexy looking
stuff that's operating behind that.
It's a great point, and so
we'll definitely be touching
on that balance here.
But that also brings up one of
the other reasons I wanted to have
you on, is because you and I met,
I think, when you gave a keynote
speech- Mm … at, um, Australian
Thai Chamber, which I'm a part of.
And it was a great keynote speech, 'cause
you talk about the balance of it, right?
Yeah.
But we later on became friends.
I've seen, I've actually seen your house.
I've seen, uh, it's not fake.
It's not- … a, a green screen.
You- you're actually out there.
We went on the sailboat and stuff.
And so you manage to strike a balance.
I'd say my balance is
a little bit different.
We, we're both entrepreneurs, but
we, we live in different areas.
Yeah.
We do slightly different things.
Yeah.
And so what was cool was we
decided to come together and
actually work on an event together.
Yeah.
And so I wonder if you can share briefly
what, you know, with the audience,
what we're trying to accomplish with
that event and what that's all about.
No, I'd love to, and I'm
really looking forward to it.
So I think part of the event is really
just solidifying what people already
know, and helping give them the skillsets
that they might be aware they don't have.
Somebody's in the corporate environment
wanting to do what you and I do.
Mm. They see what they want to achieve.
Uh, they're aware of some of the
things they need to do to do that, but
there's also a whole area of things
that they don't know they don't know.
And that's gonna be a fun
five or six hours- Yeah … to
get that all into one place.
People g- being able to walk out of the
room going, "Yes, I am making the right
decision. Yes, I know what it entails,
and yes, I now know how to do it."
Right, right.
Absolutely.
So for individuals that are thinking
about starting a business, who
maybe have worked in an agency,
maybe working in a consulting firm,
something like that, and it's-
Or, or on the, or even on the
consu- con- the corporate side.
Yeah.
I think there's a huge skillset.
Anything that a corporation
is Happy to pay for you.
There are people out there that would
be happy to pay for you for… I mean,
my background personally is in the
agency world, the creative agency world.
But there's also the need for
consultancies and agencies and
fractional specialists in logistics,
in finance, in operations, in
marketing, of course, in branding.
So whatever your area of expertise
is, there is the opportunity to take
that and own it, and make it your
product, and make it your offer.
It's a great point, and I think we're all
seeing this shift that's happening where,
you know, there's this fracturing going
on- Mm … where companies, there are
layoffs, there's these things happening.
So I think that's also the timeliness of,
of why we decided to do this, is because
some people have a stable job right now.
Totally.
You know?
But, but there's different categories
of people in different situations,
and we're all seeing, whether it be
with AI or other things, or economic
factors, or wars that are going on.
Yeah.
The point is, things are changing and
we wanna better position ourselves or at
least have some optionality, I'd assume.
You're, you're totally right, and I, I
think there are as many different reasons
to make that jump as there are people.
But essentially, I think we could
probably look at three different
sets of drivers for why people would
want to step out of the corporate
or large agency network environment.
And I think there are people
that just generally want more.
Yeah.
You know, they, they have a skillset.
They want more autonomy.
They want more authenticity.
They want to be able to work on the
kind of things they're passionate about.
They want the buck to stop
with them, and that is a jump.
And obviously, we wanna make
sure that people have the
equipment and, and the parachute.
There's also people who are looking a
little bit further over the parapet.
They can see these changes happening,
and they can see AI squeezing workforces.
They can see consolidation
between companies.
They can see, uh, networks, you know, uh,
buying each other and, and, and, and, and
looking at those efficiencies of scale.
And they can see this coming down the
line, and they want to get ahead of it.
So there might have always been this,
"I wanna do my own thing," but then
there's the, "Yeah, and now is the
time to do it before I don't have a
choice." Uh, and then the third group,
their world has already shifted.
You know, they are senior, they
are experienced, they are credible,
but that role no longer exists, and
they need something to move into.
They need something that allows them
to maintain living where they live, the
income they want, the lifestyle they have.
And for many of them, the most viable
option for that is to go out on their own.
So whether it's a jump, whether it's
a preemptive move, or whether it's
a reaction, I think that the mindset
required, the reality check required, the
skillset required are still gonna be the
same thing for those, for those people.
And I honestly don't know what
mix- that's going to be in Bangkok.
Might be a different mix in Singapore.
It might be a different mix in London.
So I'm really interested to see who
we actually get and what the driver
behind their, their decision is.
I was just speaking with a friend who,
his girlfriend had recently lost her
job, and it's interesting 'cause in this
particular case it was someone who maybe
might not want to be starting a business.
Hmm.
Uh, but I think something that I'm
seeing a bit is that some people
might hold out hoping that they
can get the job that they lost.
Hmm.
And to your point, maybe that job is gone.
Now, maybe they can find it at another
firm, but it's just interesting as
you were talking about how some of
us don't have certain skill sets.
Hmm.
I think one of the most common things,
let's say you lose a corporate job.
You might say, "Ah, but
I hate to sell." Yeah.
Yeah.
Right?
And so I'm not a good person at selling.
I'm never gonna sell, therefore,
I'm gonna look for another
job like the one that I lost.
And I've seen people plenty on my LinkedIn
and here in Thailand that are just holding
out and just hoping their job reappears,
hoping that offer just comes back.
Yeah.
And I mean, don't you think it- even if
it's an uncomfortable thing for people
to do, wouldn't you say it's still worth-
I, I think there's two, I think there's
two aspects to what you're saying,
and they're both really good points.
I think first is how long do you hold
onto the balloon once it's sailing away?
Do you give yourself, my,
my role has disappeared.
Do I give myself a month?
Do I give myself two months?
Do I give myself three months?
Do I give myself so long that
there's no buffer left at all?
You know, at what point does the, I'll
hold off on waiting for my perfect job
to come along, and if that doesn't,
then I'll look at going out on my own.
Is it to the point where doing
your own thing is no longer viable-
Hmm … 'cause you have no runway left?
At what point does that happen?
And I think people get very attached
to, to what they do as who they are.
I am the vice president of this.
I am the regional head of that.
I am the specialist of this.
And we tie up our, our, our jobs
with, with our identity, and
it's very hard to let go of that,
very hard to let go of that.
But I think the reality check is- The
point by which one company restructured
and lost a set of roles in that company,
and those people could then move across
or even diagonally up into other roles.
That's not necessarily what
we're talking about now.
We're talking about whole
industries compressing.
We're talking about roles disappearing,
not just from one organization, but that
role disappearing from all organizations
as they realize that that role can be
replaced, squeezed, streamlined out.
So it's not the natural osmosis
between companies anymore, um,
that we could have relied on.
So I think there's, there's
a reality check on that.
On the other point you made, and it
was a really good one, about people
being held back because they don't feel
comfortable or able to do some of it.
I'm not an accountant.
I'm not a legal expert in business setup.
I'm not a new business guy.
Mm.
Those are all valid points, but you don't
need to be an expert in those things.
You need to know them well enough
to be able to push forward the
thing you are an expert in.
There's a lovely old IDEO
phrase of T-shaped people.
So you're an expert in one thing, and
you have experience across other things.
Now, they were using it to describe
people working on projects for them.
But actually, in this context, you'll…
You do need the top of that T, a bit of
finance- Mm … a bit of legal, a bit of,
you know, admin, a bit of new business,
enough to drive forward the, you know,
the main part of your T, which is your
skill set, whether that is finance,
operations, marketing, branding, creative.
That's still who you are.
You don't need to give that up to
become a new business person But
you do need to be a creative or an
operational specialist or a logistic
specialist that can do new business.
Mm.
Yeah.
You, you don't need to replace your
identity, but you do need to acknowledge
that there is another aspect to
what you need to do, which is hard.
I've, I've met very senior people go
and set up on their own and wait to be
handed the work, because for 30 years
they've been given the projects to do.
They've been set the task.
They've been set the KPIs, and
in their mind, they were, they
were, they were entrepreneurial.
They were looking at different
ways of solving things.
They were, they were being very
responsible and creative with the budget.
They were coming up with new ideas
above and beyond what they expected.
They were being entrepreneurial.
They were being forward-thinking.
But the reality is they were still
doing that with something that had been
placed on their desk in front of them.
We've talked about this, this gap
of, of knowledge, of talking to
people who will be saying, "Oh, I
have contacts here, here, and here."
And you say, "Well, when you're
looking at your finances, don't
forget, you know, there's a…
There's the payment terms here.
You need to build in the fact that
the multinational clients might
take 90 or 120 days to pay you." And
we've been told, "Oh, they'll make
an exception for me." No, they won't.
You, you need to be conscious
that there is a whole back end
to payment you weren't aware of,
that the work just doesn't appear.
You need to go out and network and
make connections and drive awareness
and write proposals in a way that,
unless you were working within the new
business team, you were unaware of.
There may be elements around the
finances, tracking a P&L, and we
chatted about this the other day.
Um, a, a good friend of mine, very…
One of the smartest people I've
ever met, one of the best operators
I've ever met, was running a
multi-location, um, operation.
120, 130 people had never seen
a P&L, 'cause finance did that.
So we no longer have the option
of having these things siloed off,
because there's no silo to give it to.
You are the driver.
You may have previously
been… You felt the engine.
Now you're the whole vehicle, you know?
And that doesn't mean you
have to lose your specialism.
It doesn't mean you need
to lose your identity.
You just need to bolt on these other
things that you need to be able to
master At least to a degree of competence
to be able to make this a success.
And that's what's not
in anyone's Instagram.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, when you're mentioning the,
uh, T skill set and having, uh, some
broad knowledge, but also having your
specialization, I couldn't help but think
about how, number one, AI allows us to do
some things that we couldn't otherwise do.
So while it's displacing people, and it's
very unfortunate when that happens- Mm
it does allow us to upskill in some areas.
Mm. And so if we can know a bit
about contracts because we can
actually have a conversation with
AI, things like that, not that we
shouldn't sometimes hire the experts.
Yeah.
We have to be very careful
where, where we draw the lines.
But at the same time, don't you think
that that's providing some opportunities?
And that actually ties into something
else, where I couldn't help but be
thinking when you said you don't have
to be the best at some of these things.
Mm. Um, you might have to be
competent, but not the best.
I think about that, uh, that phrase
of you don't have to be the fastest,
you have to be faster than the slowest
person to not get killed by the- Yeah
the cheetah or whatever, right?
And it's that if you're an
accountant, let's say, that is now
going off on your own and has a
specialization, still can find a place
and a niche and a f- focus, right?
A lot of fellow accountants probably
don't wanna do sales either.
You don't have to be the best salesperson.
Yeah.
You don't have to be the used car
salesman, but you might need to know
how to get a LinkedIn profile up and be
able to do a bit of outreach or be able
to reach out to your network, but you
don't have to be the extreme, right?
Yeah.
You need to be good enough and
competent, as you put it, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that's a
really good distinction.
Um- You don't need to be the expert in it.
You just need to be competent in it.
Um, you, you, you don't need
to be the best in the world,
but that's a really nice line.
You need to be the, you need
to be the best marketing person
amid the other accountants.
You know, in the land of
the blind, the one-eyed man.
Um, but that's a really
good way of framing it.
So you, you don't need to
elevate these skill sets up to
the level of your core skill.
Why would you?
And, and I think half of the
battle is being aware of it and
being willing to engage in it.
So I think, as you say, for, for, you
know, for the admin or for the marketing,
for the sales, a third of the battle is
getting over the fact that you need to
do it, and then a third is getting the
skill set, and then a third is doing it.
But a chunk of that is realizing that
it's your job to do, that it's not gonna
magically happen, that those people
you've met over your career that have
said, "Oh, when you go out … If you
ever go out on your own, we'll work with
you." As well-intentioned as that comment
is, it's not gonna materialize, because
maybe they don't have the projects.
M- maybe it's out of sight, out of mind.
Maybe they're just being nice.
Or maybe they do have it, but they can
only work, and this is most of the time,
with their globally approved vendors.
Mm. So no matter how much they want
to give you that project, they can't.
So you need to be driving proactively,
awareness, engagement, new business,
despite how uncomfortable it makes you.
One aspect of this stepping outside of
your skill set, and I think there are
elements that are harder a- and easier,
stepping outside of your skill set and
learning about the legal requirements
to set up a business in Thailand or
Indonesia or, you know, or Singapore.
There is a competency gap to fill.
I need to find that out.
I don't really wanna do it.
I need to do it.
P&L, oh, I'm not really a money person.
Well, you have to be a money person.
You need to get over that- self-diagnosed
challenge of I'm, I'm, I can't
do this, and you have to do it.
But one of the harder ones is
the discomfort of selling, the
discomfort of asking for work, the
discomfort of networking, the intense
discomfort of being asked to be paid.
Mm.
And if you're not comfortable with
discomfort, you can't do this.
You know, if you're not able
to say, "No, this is my job.
You need to pay me to do this.
I'd love to work with you on this, but we
need to agree the fees." Mm. "I've done
this for you, I now need to get paid."
There's the sharp end, but there's also
the, I don't really wanna go networking.
Well, you have to.
I don't really wanna meet strangers.
Well, you have to because nobody … The
people who have that as within their
natural character are no longer part of
the entourage that you get to utilize.
Mm. You can't rely on the new
business guy anymore because
you are the new business person.
You can't rely on the admin person to
process the, the, you know, the receipts.
You can't rely on the finance
person to chase payment.
You are all of those people.
Yeah, I think it's a very hard thing
for some people to get over, but to your
point, I mean, we have to get over it.
Or maybe some people won't do that,
and again, I, I have seen some people
that might say, "I lost my job, now I'm
gonna do whatever job will give me money
'cause I just don't have that in me."
Mm. And I, I guess that's okay too, right?
It's-
That's … Yeah, there is,
there is no right or wrong.
Yeah.
Absolutely no right or wrong for this.
Um, and, and I think what we're
saying is that I would anticipate
the event, having people come to the
end of it and go, "You know what?
Maybe this isn't right for me.
You know what?
This was a few thousand baht that was
a hugely wise investment 'cause I've
realized this isn't the path I want to
tread." We look at the highlight reels of
other people doing it without being aware
of everything that's going on behind that.
You know, if everybody came out of
this knowing a lot more than they came
into, that's great, and they will.
But it may be they come out of this
knowing that maybe it's not for them.
And again, that would be a huge saving
for them in terms of emotional, uh,
investment, time investment, and
r- and, and financial investment to
learn this now rather than three,
six, 12 months down the line.
I know I've made a lot of very
expensive mistakes because I
didn't know what I didn't know.
And I think, to your point, it could be
the mistake of trying to go independent
and realizing it's not for you.
Mm. It's better that you
nip that in the bud, right?
Or it could just be, you
know, thinking you know more.
I, I think there's the
Dunning-Kruger effect a bit, but
th- that I think comes into play.
But this idea that I've seen plenty
of people that say, "Oh, I was in
this industry. Now I wanna get into
this industry, start a business in
that industry, do this thing, take on
this corporation," whatever it may be.
Yeah.
And they don't know what they don't know.
And it sounds like, you know,
what we're gonna try to do is just
ground people, not to say that you
can't do some of these things, but
it's a matter of at least learning
from some other people's mistakes.
Yeah.
Because it's very costly when
we're making all these mistakes-
Yeah … independently on our own.
Um, 'cause it's good to know from,
if you're starting a marketing
business, it's good to know from a
marketing person how they started their
business and the mistakes that they
made, as opposed to going in blind.
Yeah.
Uh, 'cause you can get
really beat up doing that.
I, I think, I think na- naivety is a
hugely overrated virtue- Mm … in this.
We see, you know, the mythology is
around the young founder, didn't know
what they were doing, you know, had
a go at it, and it all worked out.
That's what we hear about.
What we don't hear about is all
the other founders that went in
not really knowing what they were
doing and it going horribly wrong.
You know, there are no
documentaries about them.
Mm. There are no paintings to the
shipwrecks that didn't get rescued.
You know, the, we, we, we
self-select those stories.
The naivety of, "Oh, it'll work
out," when it probably won't.
But it can do if, as you
say, you don't need to learn
those mistakes by doing them.
You can learn from the mistakes
and the expertise of other people,
and we have experts coming in.
We have 35, I think, last count-
Mm … um, founders and fractionals
who are successful- Mm … that
have given us their learning,
the wisdom, the practical wisdom-
Yeah
…
as high stakes, you know, understanding
that they've gained so other people
don't need to go through that.
So I think there is something around
the naivety is, is not something
that, as much as we mythologize it,
is something we want in reality.
The other is a passion is
not a business proposition.
Yeah.
You know, just because you're
passionate about something doesn't
mean there's a market, doesn't mean
you have any credibility, doesn't
mean that there's customers, doesn't
mean that there's money in it, and I
think we need to separate those out.
I've seen people launch businesses into
categories that, uh, they are passionate
in, whether that is somebody wanting
to make a marketing agency around
pickleball, you know, or it's somebody
decided to set up a consultancy around
working with vendors of sailboats, or
it's somebody that, you know, launches
something around, "Oh, I'm gonna set
my wine consultancy business up."
They're passions, and it's great
to have passions, but don't mistake
passion for a viable proposition
that somebody will pay you for
Yeah, that brings up that
difference or distinction
between a business and a hobby.
And I think sometimes too, I think,
I, I'm curious if you have the same
opinion on this, but you can be working
for a full, in a full-time job and
you can have a hobby on the side.
Mm. And I think if you haven't really
been paid for that hobby, let's say
your hobby is photography or whatever,
and you're like, "Oh, I've been
invited to do photography for some
event," or whatever- Yeah … and
you basically did it pro bono, right?
Yeah.
But you've been doing that and
so you say, "You know what?
If I lose this job, I have this hobby
that I'll turn into a business."
Yeah.
But to your point, if, if you haven't
then asked for money, gotten paid good
money for that, been able to prospect
people outside of just your very close
circle- Yeah … then you, you might
be underestimating the difference
between a hobby and a business.
Yeah.
I, I think it's very big d- and I, this
is something I've, I've, I've seen myself.
I've, I've launched offers that
everybody said was great, and everybody
said they would definitely use it,
until it came time to actually pay
for it, and it, everybody evaporated.
People will say often the thing that
they want, that they know you want to
hear, so that nobody's going to say to
you, "Yeah, that's a terrible idea."
You know?
No one's gonna say, "You know
what? I don't think that's gonna
work," because they wanna be nice.
They like you, you know?
And they want you to go
away thinking good things.
And a- again, and, and that's not
necessarily a skill set or the
quality of what you're producing.
You can be an amazing photographer.
You can be an amazing, you know, speaker.
You can be an amazing coach.
But until somebody's willing to
pay you for that, it's a hobby,
and it takes the pressure off.
And to be honest, doesn't really
matter if you're not that amazing
if no one's paying for it.
You know, there's a difference
between the funniest guy in
the bar and a stand-up comic.
Mm.
There's a difference between a really
great photographer and somebody who
makes a living from photography.
And there is a gulf, and that
gulf is, will I get paid for it?
Absolutely.
Uh, I've definitely fallen
for that trap before, too.
Uh, one example I like to share is
the, uh, idea of you can ask someone
what they want out of an airline.
Mm. And they can say, "Oh, I want, I
want a lot of leg room, I want this
seat, I wanna make sure," right?
And you can do all that, and then when
it comes down to what they are willing
to buy- Yeah … they go and they sort
by price, and they don't care about
the leg room at that moment in time.
Yeah.
And so put your money where your mouth is.
If you're not having your clients
put their money where their mouth
is, then you're just getting ideas.
You're not necessarily getting,
uh, the reality, as you just said.
I have a, a good friend of mine who
I, I work with, amazing guy, super
smart, super passionate, super driven,
has built an incredibly successful
business, and he has training programs.
And there's, you know, the 80/20.
A lot of the training program work comes
through a small number of the training
programs, but he has other ones on offer.
And one of the programs that was asked
for repeatedly by customers was, can you
develop an environmentally led program?
Mm.
Guess which program's
never actually been bought?
That one, of course.
Yeah.
So it's one of these things that everybody
wants to… And, and another friend
of mine was looking at an offer around
environmentally friendly advertising.
Mm. So looking at reusing
materials, looking at resourcing,
and just doing something with
a much lower carbon footprint.
Everybody said they were gonna do it.
Everybody said they would pay more for it
until it came down to the moment of truth.
So I, I, I think we need to be
careful of what people are telling us.
You know, don't listen to what
people say, watch what they do.
But also, and I think, yeah, the, the,
the passion is not a business proposition.
Your hobby is not a viable offer.
Other than the rare opportunities
where it happens to have been
your passion that's led you into
doing it already, that somebody's
already paying it for, you know?
And then maybe there is a balance
of I'm already earning most of
my money from this, now is the
chance to step forward onto that.
But again, there is something around
turning your passion into your
profession can kill your passion for it.
Mm.
If you love photography, maybe the worst
thing in the world for you to try and do
is become a professional photographer,
'cause then it becomes your job.
It's an excellent point.
Now, we started this out by talking
about the unknown unknowns, and I think
that that's a key part to really what
we're talking about in the event- Mm
here today.
It's that to know what you don't
know because you can learn from
other people's mistakes, um,
and avoid some of them, right?
As much as possible.
But I'm curious, Steven, are there
any particular un- un- unknown
unknowns that you can share that
you experienced personally when you
were on your entrepreneurial path?
I think that they're around some of
the themes we already talked about.
Yeah.
I, I think there's, there's a,
there's a large area around the
complexities, you know, as, as we said.
There's a, there's a surprising
amount of admin involved in freedom.
You know, a surprising amount
of paperwork, you know?
So when you're looking at things like
vendor setup with a new client, every
vendor treats you as though you're
the new global supplier for their PET.
You know, you, you may be engaging in a
retained project or a one-off project.
It could be in the single-digit thousands.
You need to go through the same paperwork
as somebody setting up for millions.
I've personally worked on projects where
the vendor setup easily took twice as
much of my time as the project did.
So the admin load is high.
People understand the admin load's gonna
be there in terms of business setup,
and there are complexities within the
business setup, but the complexities
within the vendor setup is huge.
The challenges of getting paid, whether
intentionally or unintentionally,
whether it is a case of projects
stopping partway through, projects not
being paid for, disputes over payment,
or whether it's simply you've gone
into the beast and it's gonna take
you two, three, four, five months.
My personal best was 18 months.
Uh, we'd given up on it, and the
payment appe- appeared one day.
That was from a large FMCG in China.
The level at which, the speed at
which the costs go out and the
delay at which the payments come
in, so that gap is a big one.
So the runway required, the admin
required, um, the, the business
setup required, all the invisible
stuff takes more time, whether
your actual time spent doing it or
time to get things done, way more.
And then the majority of reasons
that businesses fail is cash flow.
There's 65% of business failures
are cash flow, and it's not
necessarily not having any sales.
It's not necessarily
not having any projects.
It's the time it takes
to get paid for them.
The second is just that mindset
thing that we talked about, the
realization that there is nobody
else doing anything apart from you.
If you don't do it, it doesn't happen,
and that this is a 24/7 endeavor.
There… And you will say, "Oh, but
I've always worked hard. I've worked
hard my whole life. I've always done
60-hour weeks." Yeah, but the weeks you
didn't didn't matter, and you did have
holidays, and you did have weekends.
Mm. And there was somebody
to step in if you were sick.
Yeah.
So there is suddenly- A lot
of responsibility that even if
you felt you had been sitting
with a lot of responsibility
before, uh, that comes into play.
The other is the culpability.
Everything's your fault.
There's no head office to blame.
There's no HR department to blame.
There's no finance department to blame.
Everything is your
fault, even if it isn't.
And then the necessity to be doing things
that are uncomfortable, new business,
awareness, social media, chasing new
c- clients, writing propositions.
So it really is the, the, the, the
unknown unknowns, the two other
sides of the T are both opaque.
Again, very, very, very smart
people have these blind spots.
It's not a lack of knowledge.
It's not a lack of desire.
It's certainly not a lack of intelligence.
It's a necessary result of the siloing
of a large organization, because in a
large organization, the last thing you
want is everybody doing everything.
You don't need people that
are able to do everything.
In the organization, you have specialists
doing what they do best, and it's
possible to go very high in an industry
without necessarily understanding
all the things that are behind it.
That's the gap.
But is that all worth it?
Because what you just described
there, it sounds very scary, I'm
sure, to a lot of people, right?
Because to your point,
they could have moved up.
They could have earned a lot of money.
They could have had a lot
of prestige in their job.
But now you're talking about
having to take ac- accountability
for everything, right?
So to you, right, going back
to your life today, you know,
is it worth it all for you?
Without question.
Um, I, I, think there's a reframing.
At first glance, it
looks A lot more risky.
And I'd argue that it isn't.
It's just there's no curtains closed off.
My wife, who is amazing, much nicer
and much smarter than me, uh, talked
about moving from being a creative
to being client servicing in an
agency, and for the first time
realized how close every quarter the
agency was to running out of money.
Whereas she said, "Now I can't see…
I can't unsee that. I can't unknow this
now." Whereas being a creative, she was
able to, to sit in the area that she
was most comfortable and most expert in.
The risk isn't greater, I would
argue, it's just more visible.
You know, as they say, we're all puppets.
Some of us can see the strings.
You know, we, we may… We can look
at our own finances and know maybe
we're six months, three months, one
month away from running out of cash.
We don't necessarily understand that
for the business we're working for.
And at least within our own endeavors,
we are responsible for that.
We succeed or we fail based, to
a large part, on our efforts.
You can be the highest performer in your
company, running the highest performing
part of the business, and still be
wiped out with a tick of a box as a
restructuring that you're not part of.
So there isn't just that there's
risk, but there's visibility of it,
and you are in charge of that risk.
Um, yes, there is fear, but
there's a freedom to it.
And a- again, 4:00 a.m.
fear is visi- is invisible.
The fi- 4:00 p.m. freedom is visible.
But you can't have one without the other.
The more freedom you want, the more
accountability you're gonna have.
If you want to sit in your corporate
cubicle with very little freedom,
but very little accountability Great.
But the more you move into the I want
to control where I go, what I do,
when I do it, how I do it, that's
moving you to one side within the
level of freedom, but a similar level
of accountability and skill and work
to point- to balance those two out.
So yes, in my case, I think it's
absolutely, you know, worth it.
Has it been a set of smart
decisions to get me to this point?
God, no.
It's been circumstance,
but with opportunity.
It's been risk, some of
which worked, some didn't.
Some things I completely tried,
didn't work out at all, but
just kept moving forward on it.
I wouldn't swap in a second.
I wouldn't go back for a moment.
There isn't a large enough
corporate salary for me to give
up the time and the freedom, and I
hesitate to use the word, but the
authenticity that I feel in my life.
And it's, for me, it's certainly
worth all those other aspects
of it to make that happen.
And if we can help other people make
that step as well in an environment
that is gonna reward that more as
the world changes, and help them
overcome some of the hurdles, then
I think that's also a great thing to
do and, and would be really rewarding
as an additional element as well.
I love that you touched on the
corporate illusion or the fact that
your wife, uh, saw that an agency is
sometimes so close to going out of
business when you're not exposed to it.
Mm. I think another case of that would
be some people might wanna join a big
company, a large company, whether it
be a Meta or a Microsoft or whatever,
because I think the illusion- Mm
of job security.
But when, you know, a large number
of people are wiped out all at once
a- and laid off, uh, made redundant,
then I think that illusion disappears.
Yeah.
But it's interesting 'cause you and I
have talked about this offline, it's
that it doesn't feel good if you lose a
client, it doesn't feel good when you have
to go out and get a new client, right?
But what's interesting about that
is that it's in your control.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, to your point,
you have to work hard on it.
But just imagine the difference between
if you were still… If you were
working in a larger company today,
you know, the fact that the financials
went down or you weren't gonna be
able to get a raise 'cause of X, Y,
Z reason, that might be kind of just
part of someone else's story, right?
Mm. You're, you're on that boat
with them, and that's fine.
But over here, as you said at the
very beginning, it's up to you.
Yeah.
Right?
You have… You, you can be lazy on a
Friday and not do anything, and it can,
it can hurt you later on, or you can
go out and get it and, and, you know-
Yeah … you don't have to ask for PTO or
time off, or whether or not you're able
to get another client, that's up to you.
But then, and there's two
different mindsets in that.
I, I think some people, the, your
job disappearing completely outside
of your control is just- This
existential, this is just wrong And I
think there's other people that your
job disappearing 'cause it wasn't
your fault is kind of comforting.
Oh, it wasn't my fault.
Mm.
You know?
Ah, yeah, the job went away.
Oh, look, the industry went.
Oh, look, this happened.
You know, and I've, I've, I've
lost… I've gone through a number
of different careers, you know, and
different roles, some of which I
lost that job completely deservedly.
In retrospect, I would've fired me.
You know?
And it was the right thing
to do, and they stung.
But what really stung was a role
disappearing regardless of being
the best performer, regardless of
having the best performing region,
and the role still disappearing.
That is just something that at
your gut level goes, "But this
isn't right." That client's gone,
but I've still got this one.
This one is, this project isn't
gonna happen, but I still have
this one coming down the line.
This isn't necessarily making
as much money as I thought.
I can pivot it into this.
Is high maintenance, it's high engagement,
it's a lot of work, but you're in
control of those, of moving those things
on the dashboard, as opposed to just,
yeah, your job isn't here anymore.
Oh, what the f- there's
nothing I can pivot.
There's nothing I can refocus on.
There's nowhere I can put my
energies to make this different.
It's gone.
And I think there is a level of risk,
and again, as you say, I'm gonna work
for Meta, I'm gonna work for Nestle,
I'm gonna work for, you know, one
of the big banks, wherever it is.
There is the illusion of safety,
but you really don't see it coming.
And also, every egg you
have is in that basket.
Anywhere in the world, your income is
tied to your job and your, you know,
and again, your identity as well.
But particularly living the expat
lifestyle for a lot of people, their
residency is tied to it, their,
their housing allowance is tied
to it, potentially s- their school
fees for their kids are tied to it.
Their… Everything is in that basket,
and when that goes, the whole life
disappears So it's not, I think, the
illusion of safety, but also with a
far greater drop behind it as well.
And that brings up a point about how
we work a little bit differently.
You mentioned how you are working,
um, from Thailand and you're
going out and you're, you were
just in the US recently- Mm
right?
You have speaking engagements,
you have client work, you have
things in different countries.
Yeah.
So if you wanna explain a
little bit more of that.
Like, is there a distinction
between working in versus from?
Hugely.
Yeah.
Hugely.
So, uh, and I think there's areas of this
that you're much more expert than I am.
So I work from Thailand.
I live in Thailand.
I do no work in Thailand.
My personal business that I use,
my business is set up in Singapore
from when I lived in Singapore.
I don't do any client engagement
or any paid work in this country.
Um, that gives me a different
set of drivers and variables
and things to chase after.
So yeah, so, uh, I love Thailand
as being the place that I live.
I don't know the challenges
of working in Thailand.
I understand how to operate as a foreign
entity in a different country And,
and work around the world with them.
So I, I think there's complications, but
again, none of which are insurmountable,
just requires a different skill set.
So I'd- I'm interested to learn
more from you around working in.
And again, we'll, we'll talk about
this I think a lot during the event.
Where you want to get to will determine
a lot of what you want to do now.
So the, the way my setup is,
is I don't work in Thailand.
I don't need to.
So my business setup and my
residency is very different.
If I wanted to be using this as
my, as my legal and financial and
my business base, I would need
to be doing things differently.
I'd need a different client base.
I'd need a different offer.
I'd need different positioning.
It wouldn't just be what box am I
ticking on a form, or I would need
to be looking at a different s-
different framework for my new business
development, and my positioning would
need to be completely different to that.
And, and I'd be really interested,
maybe now or in the session, to learn
how that differs for, for you within
the, the fractional Thai-based space.
Yeah.
We will, uh, as you said, speak
about it more in the session because
it's a complex subject, and I think
you made a really great point.
You have to work backwards
from what you want, right?
Mm. And I have a couple young kids
that I am raising here as well.
My wife is Thai.
And so a lot of it for me was how do
I make sure that I'm doing things all
above board, as you are, but above board
by working with clients- Yeah … in
Thailand because some people think that
they can get in on a tourist visa or a
destination Thailand visa and be okay.
Whereas for me, I'm thinking
how do I make sure that I can
maybe one day get citizenship?
Right now I'm a permanent resident.
Yeah.
That was a huge amount
of work to get that.
But in order to become either
of those, a huge key that people
have to know is that it's critical
that you are making money- Mm
and working in Thailand and
contributing- Mm … to Thai society.
That's where certain visa
types don't make sense.
That's where you have to start
thinking well ahead so that you can
plan a life so that I'm, for instance,
on a path to getting citizenship.
Yeah.
I just wouldn't risk it because I
know you've probably heard in the news
now too, there are more crackdowns.
You know, years and years ago, like
over a decade ago, um, I, I knew a
lot of people that would do the border
runs, and it's just, it's, it's just-
No, totally.
But also I think there's another
element around to it that it's
not just your appetite for risk.
Yeah.
So, you know, so somebody may say, "Okay,
I understand all this, but you know what?
I'm just gonna run it off as a tourist
visa and make those jumps and stuff
like that." But yeah, if you wanna do
that, I wouldn't suggest you do that.
But you're not gonna get any clients.
You know, "Oh, I'll, I'll just wing it.
I'll hire…" You know, well, no, you
need a business set up to invoice.
You need, um, transparency and r-
registration and a bank account, and
often, uh, you know, you need to be able
to show a good, good standing within
financially to get registered as a vendor.
So whether you think, "Ah, I'm okay to
run a risk on it," your clients aren't.
Yes.
So nobody's gonna employ you
unless you can show this.
I remember working with a client in
Indonesia, and they wanted a letter
of good standing from the bank.
Mm.
I was the vendor.
You know, they were gonna pay me.
It wa- it wasn't as though I was
wor- it wasn't as though they were
worried that I couldn't pay them.
I was the vendor, yet they still
wanted that, uh, i- in order to, to
have their reassurance on both sides.
So your appetite for risk
of, "Oh, well, I'll just play
it and see how it goes," no.
Th- there will be nothing to see how it
goes, 'cause you will not get engaged.
You will not get any work.
The other side of that, you're also
entering a huge set of complexity
right now by trying to wing it, and
as you say, it could preclude plans
down the line that you may want
to be trying to achieve with this.
Yes.
And I wanna go back to something
that you shared before about how when
you're working with a large company,
they have their payment terms, and
they'll pay you in 90 days, right?
Mm. It's, it's very similar.
You have to think about the companies
that are operating in Thailand.
They have the way they do things.
They have the VAT that they want withheld.
Even for individuals that are working
with Thai, uh, e- I'm sorry, expats, let's
say, or, uh, foreigners that are living in
Thailand and have companies in Thailand-
Mm … their Thai accountant is gonna
want things set up a certain way, too.
Yeah.
And so you can't… It's back
to the point of, "Oh, they'll
make an exception for me."
They won't.
And that, and I mean, now, the way
I… Again, I'll talk about this later.
My, the way my business is set up is it's,
I have clients outside of the Thailand.
Mm. I work with clients outside
of Thailand, and I also work in
Thailand, so I have the, uh, work
permits and everything to do that.
So you can create a cor- sort of nimble
100% above board scenario where you have
some flexibility, but the point, as you
just said, is that don't just expect, "I
know, I'll just get clients in Thailand.
I see an opportunity here.
They don't have this type of shop here.
I'll just start that shop." Yeah.
Or, "I'll start that, I'll turn
my hobby business and, and just
get paid under the table." Yeah.
You know, not so fast.
You really have to think about this stuff.
And,
and there, there's also a very,
very real chance of people
deluding themselves on this.
And again, this is a
slightly different topic.
I have watched people
develop and launch an offer-
Mm
…
and run it to their mind successfully
and never take any money out of it.
They're breaking even
without their own salaries.
They're breaking even without their
own costs, and I think we need to
be open about opportunity cost.
You know, I've, I've seen people who are
in, you know, with, with, with a partner.
The partner has a corporate role.
The other person sets up on their
own with their own offer, and they
look at the end of the year and show
that they made more money than they
lost and deem that to be a success.
But they're not living off it.
Right.
It's not really a viable offer.
If it was standalone, it wouldn't
work, and you need to look at
these things as standalone offers.
You can't live off your savings,
you know, for v- for long
and function as a business.
As much as you say, if you're
not getting paid, it's a hobby.
If you're not getting paid enough or
even enough to delude yourself if it's
successful, that is potentially more
dangerous Because it just doesn't stand.
There are invisible costs, and
we'll talk about those, you
know, that you don't wanna find.
You suddenly, you've done a huge
project for a client on a very thin
margin, and then you find they're
withholding 30% because of the tax
laws in that particular location.
That 30% has wiped out the
20% you were gonna make.
That turns a project you were gonna
make 25% on to a project you lost 5%
on because there were elements within
that contract, within that legal side,
within those, those taxation requirements
that you just weren't aware of.
Uh, and that is one of the great
unknown unknowns, you know?
When the, when the corporate
accountancy bill arrives, when the,
you know, where, when the, the,
the things you hadn't anticipated.
In the corporate world,
you get handed everything.
You've never… In the corporate
world, you've never bought a laptop.
You've probably never paid a phone bill.
You haven't paid for a flight.
You haven't, you haven't, you haven't
seen the real cost of, of new business.
You've, you've flown somewhere
to have meetings with the client.
You didn't look at the flight prices,
you didn't look at the hotel costs.
All these hidden costs that were there
before, the hidden time, the hidden admin.
And again, there's suddenly these big
chunks that come off that you just
didn't know was gonna be an issue.
Right.
Right.
And that's why, again, my personal
opinion on this, and it depends on the
individual, but it's that do some of
the stuff and test out some of the stuff
before you have to, if at all possible.
Because I think that we can also share
some of the unknown unknowns to help, you
know, warn of things that could happen.
But at the same time, sometimes you have
to be burned a little bit on the stove.
Sometimes that example of not
knowing about a withholding tax,
that could, that could burn you.
But I would argue that's
good to have happen when you
don't need that extra margin.
Yeah.
A- a- and then it's like,
next time I won't do that.
It's kind of nice to know
that early.
But it's, but it's even
better to know it beforehand.
That's true, too.
So we, when we used to do a, a lot of
work in, in China, it didn't take many
times to realize that often you didn't
get the last payment for a project.
You divide the project up into
four parts, different stages for
payment, and you wouldn't get the
last one, 'cause why would they?
'Cause they've now got
everything from you.
So it became standard to inflate the price
up by 25% on the expectation that you
wouldn't get the last quarter of payment.
So you start doing that.
It would, it would have been
better to know that before the
first two times it took to do it.
It'd be better to know about that
30% so you can factor it in, either
reduce the deliverables or become a
little more, or reduce your out costs.
Mm. Um, and the other one is, and those
are functional aspects of it, the time to
start working on your network of contacts-
Isn't when you start your own offer.
It's three months, six months
before you start your own offer.
It's building up a relationship with
the connections and contacts you
already have as you the individual,
not you the role at that company.
It's building up, um, those
conversations potentially on your own
email address , you know, through a
different format so they start seeing
you as something above and beyond
that particular functional role.
Starting to reach out for those
people when you desperately need
something is completely the wrong time.
You need to build the relationship up
doing stuff for them Taking interest in
them before you start asking for anything.
Otherwise, you're just the guy
that went out on his own and
started tapping everybody for work.
Yes.
And I can't wait for you to share
more about how you've done that.
You're, you're, um, you're kind of
exposing the broad, uh, strokes of how
you need to start early, but you have
some very interesting tactics that
you've shared with me about how you've
been able to build up that network,
uh, and do it in a very sustainable way
so that when you do need business from
them, you maybe tap into people that
other people haven't even thought to tap
into-
Yeah
in their network.
But also the beauty is, um, I, I
personally have a no asshole rule.
I'm not gonna work with anybody.
You know?
So there's, there's a lovely line that,
um, that, that a guy I work with, f-
again, very smart, very successful
guy, says, he says he's allergic to two
kinds of heads: overheads and dickheads.
And he won't work, won't deal with either.
And if you have the opportunity to
kind of select, just move yourself
away from the people you wouldn't
want to spend time with, then it's
not a chore to reach out to them.
It's not hard work to engage.
It's not hard to go for a coffee or lunch
with somebody if you actively like them.
It doesn't become hard work.
And if you're looking at an, a
contact list of 50, 100, 150 people,
maybe you don't have to go after
the ones you just don't like.
So it's not difficult to do it.
There are some clients that
you just know aren't for you.
There are some projects you
know just aren't for you.
And sometimes the most important
thing is saying no to things, as
we said, as we'll talk about on the
day, about targeting your offer.
If you're trying to do
everything, you're doing nothing.
Nobody likes jugglers.
You know, it's just not credible.
But equally so, you do need to engage.
You do need to go out there.
You do need to, to broaden your network.
But that doesn't mean you have to
work with everybody or do everything.
In some ways, there's
a, there's an honest…
And again, one of the beautiful
things about doing what we do is
nobody can make us work with somebody.
Nobody can make us have somebody
we don't like as a colleague.
Nobody can make us have some, a company
we don't enjoy working with as a client.
Absolutely.
Well, that ties a little bit into the
format I'd like to share, um, or maybe
you can share, of this workshop and this,
um, event that we're gonna be putting on.
I mean, what is that structured as?
Because I will say that when we were
discussing this, uh, a big pet peeve
of mine or something I don't love
about events is when it's just someone
speaking to you- Mm-hmm … and then
it's like, all right, that's done.
Or sometimes you hear that it's the
event, and the event stops, and then
you don't even have time to apply or to
speak with the people that you've met.
So some of these things are missing,
and I know that's something that
we didn't wanna have happen.
So can you kinda share the
concept and how we're gonna try
to do things a bit differently?
No, I think that's a really good
point, and, and I think it echoes
some of the points we made earlier on.
First of all, as you say,
it's not an, it's not a send.
So we'll have sections around the points
we talked around, the legal setups,
P&Ls, new business, you know, vendors.
We'll have those, those
functional topic areas.
And within each of those,
there's a working session.
So we're not just talking
about a potential P&L.
We'll get the people in the
room to work out their P&L.
We're not just talking about the
need to build up your contact list.
We'll have a session in which
people build up their contact list.
We're not just talking about the need
to have a really clear positioning.
We've got the tools on the day for
people to work out their positioning.
So it is hard-earned practical wisdom
directly then turned into the tools
and the frameworks that the people in
the room will use to go forward with.
Equally so, as we've mentioned before,
you can't be an expert in everything.
You don't need to be an
expert in everything.
So we're bringing into the session for the
Q&A section people who are specialists,
so people who do understand the legal
setup, people who do understand the,
the, the complications around particular
countries and banking, people who do
understand, you know, exactly what
it means in terms of being the 24/7
founder, people who do understand the
realities of building a fractional offer.
So it's that combination of that
hard-earned practical wisdom, turning
it into the specific needs of the people
in the room that they can take away and
apply, and also bringing in other experts
for the Q&A and for after the, the program
for people to engage with and get that
depth of, of knowledge in areas where we
would never say to be more than competent.
And it's not a one and done.
There's follow-up sessions, two follow-up
sessions after that run virtually for
anybody that's there on the day to
come back in, join us with our experts
on, on a Zoom meeting, and follow
up with questions, things that they
still need some guidance on, perhaps
some validation, perhaps some, um,
engagement from their peers as well.
So it's insights, learning, practically
turning that into the tools they need,
experts in the room, and the follow-ups.
Right.
And I guess to put simply, it's the…
It's what I wish I had, uh, when I
started off because, you know, I, I
just didn't have that sort of exposure.
I mean, there was plenty of things.
You could find an old blog post online
that would tell you about something
about start up a company in Singapore
or Hong Kong or whatever, right?
But it was never as in-depth and as-
Mm … applicable and like you're
actually building something out and, and
that's I th- of course what we wanna do.
Yeah.
No, I think that's probably a
nice way of looking at, yeah.
It's… I think that's a
beautiful way of saying it's
what I wish I could have gone on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a lovely way of putting it.
Now, Stephen, uh, you've been
generous with your time as always.
Really do appreciate it.
Um, I'm curious if there are any
topics that you wish we would have
talked about that we haven't yet.
I think just to go back to that, that
key theme we talked about around the
freedom and the accountability, um,
that nothing that you or I are doing
is beyond the capabilities of anybody.
You don't need to be the
expert in everything.
You just need to be competent
at most of it and expert at
the thing you are selling.
And again, not to compare other people's
highlight reel with your lived reality
and feel that it isn't working out.
Whether looking at what you want to do
or whether looking at what you are doing,
it is hard work, but it is worth it.
What a great way to end it.
Well, thank you again for your time.
Really do appreciate it, and hope
to see a lot of, uh, individuals
at, at the event that's upcoming,
and we'll of course share all the
information there, uh, with you all.
I'm looking forward to it.
All right.
Thanks, Scott.
Thank you so much.