Repair vs Replace: Why Most HVAC Techs Are Having the Wrong Conversation

Repair or replace? It’s one of the most debated — and emotionally charged — decisions in HVAC today.

In this episode of HVAC Full Blast, hosts Mary Carter and Steven Ross are joined by David Holt, Director of Education and Coaching at EGIA, for a candid conversation about how contractors, technicians, and homeowners really navigate repair versus replacement decisions.

Together, they explore:

• Why repair vs. replace is more about mindset and education than pressure
• How technician emotions and homeowner psychology shape outcomes
• The role of trust, questions, and clear options in better decision‑making
• What service departments need to do to stay profitable and professional
• Why the contractors who win in the coming years think differently about service

This episode challenges the idea that there’s a “right” answer every time — and instead focuses on how better conversations lead to better outcomes for customers and businesses alike.

Interested in becoming a Trane dealer? Visit us at partners.trane.com to learn more about how you can partner with a leader in HVAC innovation. Explore opportunities to elevate your business and stay ahead in the market with Trane!

Creators and Guests

Host

Mary Carter

Mary Carter is a seasoned sales and marketing leader with over six years at Trane Technologies, currently serving as Regional Sales Manager. With a strong foundation in RHVAC, consumer finance, and strategic account management, Mary brings valuable insights and real-world experience to every conversation.

Host

Stephen Ross

Stephen Ross is a dynamic sales trainer and leadership coach with over nine years at Sandler Training. A former HVAC business owner, Stephen combines his technical knowledge with proven sales expertise, offering a unique perspective on what it takes to succeed in the RHVAC industry.

Guest

David Holt

David Holt, Director of Education & Coaching at EGIA, helps HVAC contractors, distributors, and manufacturers become better tomorrow than they are today. With expertise in business process simplification, systems design, and Salesforce implementation, he’s passionate about driving innovation and connecting people with solutions.

Producer

Jessica Blair

Jessica Blair is a Senior Learning Manager at Trane Technologies' Residential HVAC unit. With 20+ years of experience in learning and development, she designs and markets blended learning programs to enhance customer learning and align with business goals.

Editor

Kerianne O'Donnell

Kerianne O'Donnell is the Digital Learning Manager at Trane Technologies and serves as the editor of the HVAC Full Blast podcast. With a background in graphic design and a strong passion for developing digital learning experiences, Kerianne brings her creative expertise to the podcast, delivering engaging and impactful content to listeners.

What is HVAC Full Blast?

HVAC Full Blast is your bi-weekly dose of HVAC business growth, powered by Trane. Hosted by Mary Carter (Trane Technologies) and Stephen Ross (Sandler), this podcast is built for residential HVAC dealers who want to scale their business, sharpen their sales, and lead with confidence.

Tune in for expert interviews, dealer success stories, and practical tips on pricing, service agreements, workforce development, and more. Whether you're in the field or in the office, HVAC Full Blast helps you stay ahead in a competitive market.

Interested in becoming a Trane Dealer? Visit our website at https://partners.trane.com/

We'd love your feedback and suggestions on future episodes. Please email us at [e-mail].

This podcast channel is for general informational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed in these episodes are those of the panelists and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Trane Technologies. Trane Technologies makes no warranty or guarantee concerning accuracy or completeness of the content presented in this webinar.

Trane does not provide tax, legal, or accounting advice. This material is for informational purposes only and it should not be relied on for tax, legal, or accounting advice. Tax law is subject to continual change. All decisions are your responsibility and you should consult your own tax, legal, and accounting advisors. Trane disclaims any responsibility for actions taken on the material presented.

All trademarks referenced are the trademarks of their respective owners. ©2025 Trane. All Rights Reserved.

On this episode of
HVAC Full Blast,

Mary Carter and Stephen Ross
are joined by David Holt,

director of education
and coaching at EGIA,

to tackle a conversation
every contractor faces,

when to repair and
when to replace.

From technician mindset and
homeowner psychology to pricing

options and trust,

this episode digs into how
better conversations lead to

better decisions and
better businesses.

Let's get started.

Welcome back to HVAC Full
Blast. I'm Mary Carter.

I'm Stephen Ross.

And today we are
joined by David Holt of

EGIA, who just recently
got the new title of

director of education
and coaching.

David, welcome to the show.

Thank you very much, Mary,

and look forward to speaking
with you fine folks.

Definitely. We're very
excited to have you as well.

And today we're gonna dive into
a topic that's getting a lot of

attention and that is
the discussion on repair

verse replace.

Kind of become some
buzzwords in our industry.

And certainly I will always
think of it as something that

we really wanna quantify,

but that's so hard to do
just because of the nature of

selling HVAC systems, right?

They come in all different
configurations and all of a

sudden this, how do I make sure
I'm offering replacements over

repairs or are repairs better?

And anyway, a lot of
buzzwords around those topics.

What do you think of bursts when
you hear repair, reverse, replace?

Well, I think personally, one of
the mindset shifts, if you will,

that needs to occur in our
industry is is to recognize

that the things that we're
talking about well, number one,

the transaction we're talking
about is a service tech in a

home, usually with a piece
of equipment that's not working.

Otherwise, the tech
wouldn't be there.

Could be a maintenance tech,
it could be operational,

but just aging significantly
and showing signs of

of death, if you will.

So you you put yourself in
the position of a service

technician, number one,
having this conversation.

We don't wanna do anything from
an industry standpoint to mess

up their reputation.

Right?

Their reputation in the eyes
of the homeowner is they are

Superman or Superwoman.

I mean, they're absolutely
you've come to rescue me.

I'm sweating bullets if it's in
the middle of the summer or I'm

freezing my tail off if it's
in the middle of the winter

because my unit's not working.

So they're they're a really

highly esteemed
player on our team.

So as a as a former contractor,

I never wanted to do anything
in my dad's business that

diminished that respect
that the service

tech had in the eyes
of the homeowner.

Because I know they
are highly, highly,

highly esteemed
by our customers.

And so one of the things
that a lot service techs have

in their mind is, you know,

if if I if I replace
this piece of equipment,

that's a sign of my failure to get an
old piece of equipment operational.

So that Superman cape,

they feel like maybe somehow another
that's it's being take taken off.

And those companies that
really, really, really,

really push for replace,
replace, replace,

but you're you're
not there to fix it.

You're there to
replace it. Right?

It's like that doesn't
feel really good to

the homeowner because that
comes across and definitely

doesn't feel good
to the service tech.

Because I tell you, my guys,

when when we started moving
more towards giving them the

ability to have this
conversation and this was,

of course, way back
in the nineties,

so this is not a new topic.

This has been going on since
my grandfather back in the

nineteen fifties with when he
first started his business.

This this is not
a not a new topic,

but it's the the nuances
are are significant.

We have to think
about, you know,

where's the mindset of
the homeowner right there?

You know, they might've been thinking
about a three or four or five

hundred dollar repair,

now all of a sudden we're
talking about a three or four

or ten or twenty thousand dollar

upgrade because it's not
really about replacing.

Think about it.

The equipment that is
broken down most likely,

if it's really old, it's an r
twenty two system on the air

conditioning side.

Right? It's not in
warranty anymore.

It's probably they probably
spent thousands of dollars on

keeping that old pig
alive when in reality,

they should have
replaced it years ago.

But nobody had
enough education and

confidence to share
options with the customer.

And if I hadn't learned
anything working with my dad

and running his business
back in the nineties,

one thing I learned for sure
is customers will always

surprise you with their
decisions when you put them

in control of the decision
through education.

That's so interesting. Yeah.

Well, lots to unpack in there,

and we're gonna
get into all of it,

but I love that your initial
perspective went from the

technician side of the
conversation to sort of say,

when I hear repair
versus replace,

I think I wanna repair this
thing because I can get

anything up and running
and good and going.

I'm usually in the
homeowner position thinking,

I repair, replace, I don't know.

Just give me the
cheapest thing done.

And hopefully that means repair
so that it's easy and we can

get this thing up today.

Yeah.

Stephen, what are your thoughts?

Yeah.

It's you know, I had this
like, literally this morning,

I I took a friend to
go pick up his car,

and the the car
is probably worth

ten, eleven thousand
dollars at the most.

And initially,
when he took it in,

he was having some
engine issues.

The initial estimate was somewhere
around four thousand dollars.

So he's faced with
this decision.

Man, the car's only worth ten.
Am I gonna put four into it?

And, of course, he's got all
the financial issues of of,

man, what do what do I you know,

if I don't put the four into
it, I gotta go buy another car.

And I probably can't sell
this car for, you know,

ten because now the
engine's got some issues.

So he's got all that
in his background.

But then the estimate goes from
four grand when he leaves it

with the mechanic to
the mechanic calls him back.

He goes all the way up to
eight grand to repair this car.

He kinda haggles there.

You're use some refurbished
parts and do some of that.

That gets it back down to about
fifty six hundred dollars.

And then when I took him there
this morning to pick it up,

the car didn't run correctly.

And so the technician goes,
oh, like opens up the hood.

And now he's like, yeah,
we probably gotta do that too.

That's another
nine hundred bucks.

So now he's fifty six
hundred dollars into it,

adding another nine
hundred dollars.

And so you can see how from the
from the buyer's side, I mean,

I'm just, you know, there
to help out my buddy, but,

oh my gosh, this
is a bad decision.

I mean, he should have at
the very beginning just said, no.

No. I'm out.

But once you're in, then you're
emotionally into this repair,

and now it just keeps spiraling.

So you can see on the homeowner
side and the technician

side that the technician
here seems like a good guy.

They're friends.

So he's trying to help them out.

He's like, oh, I can get the
cost down and I can do this.

But meanwhile, now three or four
repairs in just to get this thing back

running and we're over six
thousand dollars I mean,

it's a disaster.

So I think that's the fear.

I think that's the fear
on the homeowner side.

Also the fear on
the technician side.

I mean, what if we do a major
repair and then six months

later or or three days later,
there's something else?

So it could be a mess.

Yeah. And here's
the other thing too.

And this is this is
unfortunately used to

be a lot more common,

not as common today as
it as it was back then.

But back when we used
to do time and material

service pricing,

where we didn't really know
what the job was gonna be

billed out at until we actually
did the job because we didn't

know how much time
it was gonna take,

and we didn't necessarily know
all the parts we were gonna

have to replace to fix it.

So it was kind of an open ended
contract with the homeowner.

And back in the nineties,

some smart people out there in the
world started saying, wait a minute.

If you go to a car dealership,

sticking with your
your car analogy,

if you go to a car
dealership, you know,

they had this book that they
could open up, and they say,

I need to replace this, and
it's gonna be this much,

and that included
labor and material.

It was already kind of menu out.

Right?

It already had a menu
pricing system, in essence,

for the repairs on a vehicle.

And some spark people
started saying, you know,

we could do that same
thing for heating and air.

So flat rate pricing came into
play back in the nineties when

I was running dad's business,

and we implemented
in our business.

Before we implemented it, I used
to get this call all the time.

David, if I had known it was gonna
be seven hundred fifty dollars to

repair it, I would've
replaced the whole thing.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, now I've already put seven
hundred fifty dollar repair into it.

So as a contractor, I'm like,

I don't wanna walk away
from that upgrade, right,

from that replacement job.

So what do I do? I credit the
seven fifty towards the job.

Right?

Well, guess who didn't make
any money on that job? Right?

Because because I
already got the labor,

the service tech sitting there.

Right?

I already got the part.

I'm I'm not gonna well,

I might pull that part
I just put on there,

I might pull it back and put it
on service trucks that really

didn't have any runtime on it.

But, you know, it's really a bad place
to be for both the contractor and the

homeowner to make a poor
financial decision because

that's exactly what
that is, Stephen.

You're you're absolutely right.

It's a it's a it's a very
emotional time frame.

And in fact in fact,

the thing that's interesting
about this particular scenario

is is it always
involves a service tech

trying to do what's
right for the homeowner.

Right?

They're trying to get the
system back up and running as

economically as possible.

That's how most
service techs think,

and and I understand
that completely.

And and I applaud them for that.

I mean, do what you can to
help the customer get up and running

now as long as it's safe,

as long as it contributes
to improved health,

as long as it's comfortable,
helps the comfort of the home,

and it reduces the operating
cost of the system,

I'm all in. Do that.

Yeah.

But me just fixing a
clunker like your buddy's

car, right, I'm sure it was very
high efficient on gas mileage.

Right?

Probably not. Seen better
days. It's Yeah. Probably not.

Seen better days for sure.

Yeah. Probably not.

You know, it probably didn't
have the new technology.

Like, one of the best things
I love about some of the new

technology in in
automobiles is, like,

they got cruise control now
that keeps up with the person

in front of you.

I mean, it's like, wow, man.

This adaptive cruise control,

I wish I had it on my old Lexus
because it doesn't have it.

It's a Lexus,

but it doesn't have it
because that technology wasn't

available when
that car was built.

You know, it's like,
what am I leaving behind?

As a homeowner, I don't know
that because customers you

know, our customers are are
homeowners that we're calling

on, and and it doesn't
matter if it's homeowner or

commercial, you know,
building, same thing.

The technology that's been
built since the equipment

that we're working on was
installed has just gone crazy.

I know if my grandfather was
alive today and I showed him

that I could change the
temperature of my house on my

phone from anywhere on the
planet that I have Internet

connection to, he'd be like,
put me back in that box, man.

You you're talking
you're talking crazy.

You're talking crazy.

Only thing he knew was this
thing like this, you know,

a t old t eighty seven
f Honeywell thermostat.

And the thought of him being
able even when programmable

thermostats came back that were
clock thermostats where we had

pins and stuff like that in the
thermostat, he was like, no.

That's that's that's
crazy stuff, man.

But the the technology has
moved in such a way that,

you know, we don't know without
having a conversation if that

homeowner is even interested
in better refrigerant as

it relates to the environment.

Low lower utility bills.

We know everybody's
interested in that.

The question is, how
interested are they? Right?

If we don't have
the conversation,

we're not really changing
anything by just resurrecting a

dead beast in their home.

Yeah.

So let's let's kinda break
down some of these maybe

mindsets and and
what we can do to

improve upon some of
this line of thinking.

Because if your mission
is do right by the

homeowner and really
set them up well,

then sometimes it is repair,
sometimes it is replace.

So how do I navigate

this if I'm the technician,
but my mission is truly,

I just wanna do right by every
customer and I want them to go with me.

Yep. Absolutely. Yep.

So there's there's
some key things.

There's some key factors.

Average age of equipment is
without a doubt the number one

thing to consider.

You look at the age of the
equipment compared to what the

typical service life of a
piece of equipment is for your

market, and and that changes
depending on where you are.

If you're if you're on the
Gulf Coast, for instance,

and you've got a outdoor unit
sitting out there in the salt,

well, guess what?

It's not gonna last as long as
if it was sitting in Kansas.

It's, you know, it's
exposed to corrosive salt,

and and that's not good.

I don't care who
manufactures the equipment.

That's just not good. And
they don't last near as long.

So we have to consider
the location of the equipment.

We have to consider the
average life of the equipment.

And there's lots of studies out
there that talk about anywhere

from seven to fifteen
years for an outdoor unit,

depending on where it is.

Certainly, the next door neighbors got
one that was twenty five years old,

and that, yeah, that
happens without a doubt.

I know some right here in the
neighborhood that I'm living in right now.

I've I'd walk by
some of these houses,

and I'm looking at
them and say, man,

I used to sell those

in nineteen ninety.

It's like, how is
that thing still here?

Right?

Well, maybe good maintenance or
maybe they just don't run it at all.

Maybe it's in a part of
the house that just doesn't get

that much call for
heating and cooling.

I don't know.

Or maybe they don't
have any money.

I mean, I don't know
if that's the case.

Anyway, it's it's like,

how do we get people
to look at everything?

So age of equipment is
one of the key factors,

certainly the cost
of the repair.

If I'm looking at a like,

if I was looking at a
four thousand dollar

repair on my my my
wife's Lexus right now,

I'd really have to strongly consider
driving this thing off a cliff.

Right?

Because it's just it's it's not worth
putting that much money into it.

I'd rather put that as a down payment
towards something else, right?

And get her something
more current and so on.

But the reality is there's an
emotional component to it as well.

Right?

You got situations
where if she heard me,

and hopefully she won't
watch this podcast,

if she heard me say
get rid of her baby,

because that's what she calls
it, she'd probably kill me.

She said, I don't know. We
have to put a new motor in it.

We're putting a new motor
in it. I love this car.

Okay. She likes she she
calls it a dumb car.

She says, I've driven
these smart cars. Right?

These smart cars that have all
these things that teach me try

to keep me in the
lane and all that.

She says, I hate that.
I hate that. Right?

Okay. We're in our
sixties. Right?

She's caught up in her
old way of doing things,

but she knows how the
how the vehicle works,

and she's comfortable with it.

So she might be emotionally
attached to what's going on

and and, you know, a service
tech in at the car dealership

would be shaking his head like,

I can't believe this woman's
putting this much money in this car.

But Yeah.

If it's an emotional decision,

there's a lot of things that happen
that don't make any financial sense.

Right?

So I don't think people get
that emotionally attached to

heating and air systems.

Although I have had occasion
where it was a big deal.

So, like, man, my
granddad put that in.

I can actually say that.

Right?

And my granddad did put this in or
my dad put this, you know, whatever.

And,

you know, that's not common.

But for sure, environmental
interest, you know,

getting the global warming
thing under control,

getting how much
energy am I am I am I

using and trying to keep
my house nice and comfortable.

I I just upgraded a system
at my house and went from

five tons of cooling on
a pretty decent sized

house, but it had
five tons on it.

I pulled out five tons,
only put three back.

Because when I did
load calc, it's like,

I knew this thing was
oversized when we bought it.

But I just never did anything
about it until it finally failed.

And when it failed, I
rightsized the equipment.

And it's been running now
since before the summer,

and I'm in Georgia, so it
got some it got some runtime.

My power bill's cut
more than fifty percent.

So is that a good
financial decision? Wow. It is. Yeah.

It is.

So two things.

First of all, I love the idea of you
walking around your neighborhood just

judging all your
neighbors thinking,

wonder if they have no money.

I think that's hilarious.

Number two, there's

no one that I know
that's better at these emotional

conversations than Mr.

Stephen Ross. So Stephen,
your hot take on this.

What are you thinking?

Yeah.

I think it's worth
thinking through

maybe separating out like, hey,

what's the homeowner's
thoughts and emotions?

What's the tech's
thoughts and emotions?

And just because but you're
it's it's actually an emotional

decision on both
sides of that coin.

I mean, they trying
to understand, hey.

How's the technician wired?

I know when I I David,

you mentioned you've been
doing this since the nineties.

I got into heating and
air in two thousand seven.

So I've seen definitely
kind of the the cycles.

And we are in a cycle right now
where more people seem to be

opting for repairs
rather than replacements.

And, you know, if if
as a business owner,

I just stand at the front
of the room and tell my

technicians, hey, you need
to be offering replacements.

Sometimes what that feels
like to the technician is I'm

pressuring them to do
something unethical.

So I think the first emotion
is trying to get your head around,

like, what are we trying to do?

How how how do we think
correctly about this issue if

I'm the technician?

So, David, I know you you
own owned a business for a while.

You were a contractor. So
put on your contractor hat.

I'm a service technician.
I work for you.

How do you how do
you help my mindset?

If I'm out there just, you know,

the last twenty five calls I've
I've done, I repaired them all.

You're like, hey.

Statistically, that's improbable that that
was the right decision on each of those.

So coach me up.

What would you what would
you say from a mindset standpoint

from the technician side?

So that's a great question and
a great way to kinda frame it.

I think the the interesting
part when you're dealing with

helping people understand
different perspective is

to is kind of give
them some analogies.

And one of the things I used to
do with my text, I said, look.

Imagine there's we we got
a we got a intersection.

You know?

Was a four way intersection,

and there's a traffic light in
the middle of that intersection.

And we got two cars
barreling into that corner.

We got four people
standing on each corner,

one on each corner.

Right? So I got four people.

I got two people in each car,

and there's an accident right in
the middle of the intersection.

I said, how many different
perspectives do we have?

Right?

Somebody is at fault, but
we got eight different

perspectives of this thing
because we got four people in

the car that were
seeing their view.

We got four people on the corners
that were seeing their view.

And the the same traffic
accident occurred,

but I got eight
different perspectives.

I said, so here's here's what
we tried to do with our team.

As we said, you know what?

We wanna always look through
the eyes of the customer,

and we wanna provide the
products and the services that

they need, that they want,

but most importantly,
what did they deserve?

What do they deserve?

Right?

What they need right now is
they need the heating and

cooling working again.

Right?

So that's what most techs
go to, but they stop.

They stop at take care of
the immediate need. Right?

Just like at the at the if if
you go into the hospital and

you go in through
the emergency room,

like you were one of the
people in those two cars,

and you're now in
the emergency room,

the emergency room focuses
on stopping the bleeding.

Right?

They stabilize the patient.

Well, that's what service techs
are kinda used to being is they're

used to being the
emergency room technician,

and they're gonna stabilize
the homeowner in this case.

Right?

They're gonna stabilize their
situation by getting the

equipment back up and running.

Right? They stop the bleeding.

Well, the problem is that
doesn't rehab the situation.

In fact, if you
look at a hospital,

the smallest part of most
hospitals is the emergency room.

The biggest part is where they
do the rehabilitation. Right?

And we get them. We got our
text to think about, okay.

First is first rule is let's look
through the eyes of the homeowner.

Let's provide the products and
services they need, they want.

Right? So how do we know
what they want, Stephen?

Gotta ask.

Oh, wait. We gotta
have a conversation. Okay. Yeah.

So I did buy I swear you can
buy one on Amazon right now.

I did buy a crystal ball.

Oh, I thought you were
saying the magic eight ball,

but crystal ball I
got a crystal ball.

I got a crystal ball because
I was told that if I had a

crystal ball, I could
read people's minds.

So I bought one.

And after forty two years,

I still can't read my wife's
mind. It does not work.

So don't use that. The best
way to do is to ask. Right?

Is ask, baby, what would
you like for Christmas?

Don't guess.

Ask her what she wants,

and you're guaranteed
to make her happy.

It's a beautiful thing.

Anyway, forty two years
of marriage, it works.

So We're gonna throw
in some holiday advice.

We're recording this around
the holiday season, and so,

you know, just pro
tip, HBC full blast.

Just ask.

Yeah. There you go.

That's awesome. Twelve things
you should buy your wife.

Anyway, pro tip, Jewelry
always works, just so you know,

most of the time anyway.

This is I I can confirm
this is correct.

You okay. Well, being yes.

Being the resident woman,
you could definitely so

so need, want, deserve.

Right?

So they want, we gotta
ask the question.

So we have to have
a conversation.

We can't just make
the assumption.

All they want is
to get it fixed.

Right?

But then the third piece that
I've that I always focused on

and continue to focus on as
as educator on this in this

industry is what does
customer deserve?

What do they really deserve?

Right? And we had one answer.

At Holt Service Company, all
our customers deserve the

Best.

Ash, you must have been
to my training. No.

I mean, that's the reality.
They all deserve the best.

The question is what's
best and who decides?

Right? Well, what's best is
what's best for them. Yeah.

But if you don't have
complete information,

how can you make that
decision as a homeowner?

So if I don't teach
my techs how to

educate the customer about
what their options are I mean,

imagine imagine
that I invited you

both to go out to a
really nice dinner,

and we all showed up at the same
restaurant at the same time.

And we sat down at the table,

and the waiter walked up and
looked at me, and he said,

peanut butter and jelly
and a glass of milk.

He looked at Mary and he said,

you need a pizza and a beer.

And he looked at
Stephen and said,

you need a kale salad
and glass of water.

And we're just like,

was running at a restaurant.

Would say I won.

Yeah. I would say you did.

If you went to my place But
I'm competitive like that.

So Yeah. Yeah.

And but here's the funny thing.

That's what we do many times in
the industry as service techs

when we just decide that the
only thing that they need to

know about is the repair.

Yeah.

Well, and I, it's funny because
I really do believe that,

you know, what they
deserve is the best.

And I've always framed that
for myself as what they deserve

as my best.

They deserve me to come in my
best self and bring my best.

And that means talking about
all the options, right?

And I do that from a distributor

sales level as well.

My clients deserve my best.

They

wanna work with me because they
know that we're gonna have an

honest conversation and we're
gonna come away with actions

and deliverables.

But I love the idea too that best
also means what's best for them.

And I think that's
a really interesting

way to frame that perspective.

So I love that.

Well, you know, you can't solve a
problem that you don't know about.

Right?

And the reality is if if
I was standing in a in a

homeowner's house and and I'm
looking around and I'm trying

to make decisions based on what
I see and I'm trying to read

their mind without
having a conversation,

I'm probably gonna miss
the mark most of the time.

Yeah.

You know, if if if
we fix missus Smith's system and

we get it back up and
running and later we find out they've

been spending eight hundred
dollars a month on power bills

and not being able to afford
their medication because they

had to pay the power company.

And my solution of getting
that thing back up and running

is continuing the madness.

If I've not had the conversation
to determine that, oh my gosh.

It's a twelve hundred
square foot house.

Do you have, like, grow
lights going on somewhere?

Are you growing a
cash crop somewhere?

I mean, what's what is
consuming all this energy?

Well, we know the HVAC systems are
one of the biggest consumers of

of energy in residents.

We probably need to
figure that out. Right?

We probably need to say, yeah.

You don't need to be running
this thing anymore because it's

sucking your bank account dry.

Right? But we can't know
that without a conversation.

So I think understanding, again,

looking at it through the
eyes of the homeowner,

looking at it through
the eyes of the customer,

and understanding what's
important to them is a critical

step that most, I'm
just gonna say most,

technicians miss.

They they take it upon themselves
to fix it without a conversation.

One of the interesting
you know what?

This kind of goes back to
Mary's background at Wells

Fargo, but one of the
stories that I tell,

I was I had was working at
a heating and air company,

and we had just built a new call
center and and kinda staffed up.

So we had some new people
answering the phones,

and so I'm in there answering the
phones and and training somebody.

And and this lady called
in, and she said, hey.

I just wanna get a price
on a pound of refrigerant.

And so she obviously was
calling to shop around,

and so we got her
talking a little bit,

asked some questions
to get her talking.

And she says, yeah.

This company came out and
said, you know, I needed refrigerant.

My unit's out.

They quoted me nine hundred
dollars for refrigerant.

And I just I don't get
paid for two more weeks,

so I just need a little bit
to get by for two weeks.

And so just that conversation
alone as a training

example for the call center,
but also then we turn around.

It wasn't one of
our technicians,

but just on the
phone, we said, hey.

If you gotta put new
refrigerant in it and you're

completely out,
that's a big leak.

Now you've gotta repair the
leak. That's a big repair.

If don't do the repair,

you can't put the
new refrigerant in.

And just on the phone said, hey.

Would you like to get
approved for financing?

She said yes and
and ballparked it

for her over the phone of
somewhere between seventy five

to a hundred dollars a month as
a monthly payment for a new one.

She got approved, and we didn't
even send the technician out.

We just sent well, we
sent a technician out,

but he just sold her a new unit
because she was already approved.

And it was it was just
interesting that the company

who'd been there previously
never really even offered that.

And then she's been calling
around to a dozen heating and

air companies asking
every single company, hey.

What's your price for
a pound of refrigerant?

And absolutely nobody up to
that point had said, well,

that's a terrible idea.

Like, we should be talking
about financing in a new system.

So in that scenario, was
really eye opening to

see it from the point of view
of a single mom who's like, hey.

I don't get paid for a couple
weeks, but she has good credit,

and she had enough money to be
able to afford a monthly payment.

And yet having talked to,

I think she said close to
a dozen heating and air

companies, nobody even
offered her a new one.

And and that was my
that was eye opening.

Yeah.

So if I if I'd have
gotten that phone call,

I would handle it a
little differently.

I would say nine
hundred dollars. Yeah.

Wow.

You know, I could put a brand new
system in your house where you don't

have to worry about that,

and that would probably pay for almost
nine months your monthly payment.

And it's no money down,

so we could put it in and your
first payment won't be for

another thirty days.

And they're like, I
love that, though.

That's I mean, you you definitely have
to look at it through their eyes and

understand where
their situation is.

And and that's the again,

that's the part that kinda
scares me when I when I have

this conversation.

When you started talking
about refrigerant leaks,

I think back on one of
the jobs right here in this neighborhood

that I'm living in.

Little old lady,

another contractor had been taking
care of this customer forever.

He's been keeping it
alive for years. Right?

And she gets a a
direct mail card.

We we did a lot of
postcards back in the day.

She got a direct
mail card from us,

talking about some things that
we were doing at the time.

Making sure that all the rooms
in the house were comfortable

was one of the main
points on this particular promotion she

took advantage of.

She called up.

I went out there,
took a look at it.

And as I'm walking the house
you know, it's a nice house,

really old equipment
sitting next to the house.

I'm like, man, this thing
been needing to go for years.

And we're sitting
in the living room,

and I had on one of the
customer survey questions that

I asked was, do you ever host any
large group gatherings in your home?

Now you're never gonna see
that when you just walk in

somebody's house.

You have to ask the question.
And she says, I actually, I do.

Every Sunday afternoon, we
study an old historical book

with about fifteen other ladies
in this very living room.

And I'm looking around,
I'm like, man, Harry,

how do you do that?

She says, I have a bunch of folding
chairs over there in that closet.

Okay.

She says, and during the summer,

I have to bring in three or
four box fans to just keep

these old ladies happy and and
halfway comfortable because

it's also a west facing
big picture window looking

out over the river.

And I'm like, she didn't know
that. I'm looking at that.

I'm thinking of the
technology, you know,

technical stuff of it.

And she was roasting her
friends during the during the

summer months because it was
just too daggum hot there.

I said, missus Smith
and by the way,

all my customers
are missus Smith.

We don't have to
remember their names.

I said, missus Smith,

if I put a thermostat right
over this couch and could

control this room by itself,

would that be of interest
to you so you could have the

temperature you want in this
room during during those Sunday

afternoon book studies?

You can do that?
Yeah. Absolutely.

In fact, I could put a couple
more thermostats and make your

bedrooms a temperature and we
we never talked about zoning.

We talked about what it
could do for her. Right?

And she bought she bought a
thirteen thousand five hundred

dollar upgrade to her home
when her buddy that had

been taking care her
her guy I got a guy.

That guy.

Her guy had been taking
care of this unit for years.

He reaches out to me at
our our local contractor

association, you
know, monthly meeting.

He comes up to me, says, I
got a bone to pick with you.

I said, what's up, man?

He said, you know
missus Smith over there?

Yeah. Yeah.

I've been nursing
that unit for years,

and now you went in there
and cherry picked the job.

And she said, you she got a better price
from from you than she got from me.

I said, oh, really?
What was your price?

He said, dollars three thousand
five hundred? I said, yeah.

She got a much better price
from me. He said, really?

What was your price? I said,
thirteen thousand five hundred.

What?

How do you sleep at night?

I said, very well on a select comfort
bed and my bank account has money in it.

Why? Right?

Yeah. And he's he's like,
what? How'd you do that?

I said, well, how are you gonna solve
the problem she had in her living room?

What problem?

Well, she's got a bunch of women
in the living room every Sunday

afternoon, and they're sweating
bullets during the summer.

How are you gonna handle that?

She never said
anything about that.

You didn't ask. That's a ten
thousand dollar question.

Right?

Anyway but that's the same kind
of concept with with technicians.

A lot of times we go in and fix
something thinking that we're

we're the hero, and and you are.

Don't get me wrong.

But if the homeowner had
been given other options,

they might have actually
made you even more of a hero.

So how do I get better
at asking questions?

As as I ask a question,

how do how do how do technicians
get better at this skill?

Because this really is a skill
in in in a selling environment.

It is. It is.

Well and, you know, number one
thing is I hate scripted stuff.

Right?

And I love the fact that you
guys do this free form because

if we descripted it, we'd have
been reading stuff and, hi.

My name is David. I no.
That's Can't boring.

Can't have it.

Can't have it.

That's not good. Right?

So you can have a planned
approach without it

sounding canned.

Like, if I gave you three
choices back in the day,

we did good, better, best.

Today, we'd probably
do good, better, best.

We'd probably do basic good,
better, best kind of thing.

But, anyway, if we laid three
choices in front of you, Mary,

and you asked me, cause
you trusted me as a technician,

which system do you recommend?

Right?

Which if a technician
is trusted,

do you think homeowner's
gonna ask for their opinion?

Yeah. Absolutely. Right.

So we would say this, Mary,

based on our evaluation
of your home,

this is the right size and type
of equipment to properly heat

and cool your house.

I'll let you take a look at the page
and answer any questions that you have.

And when you looked at
it and you said, man,

this is a bunch of
these are big numbers,

and you don't you're you're
you don't wanna, you know,

you don't wanna ask
number questions.

You just wanna say, well,
which system do you recommend, David?

I'd say, Mary, at
Holt Service Company,

we truly believe all our
customers deserve the best.

And then let you ask the
next question. Right?

And so how did how
did we do that?

Well, we sat around in
a room, and we said,

what are the common questions
that you get from customers?

Okay.

What should our standard
response be to that question?

If someone says, what
do you recommend?

That was the only authorized
answer that any of my techs

could give or salespeople
could give to a customer if

they say, do you recommend?

At a health service company,

we truly believe all our
customers deserve the best.

So how do you get to
where you can say that

honestly, ethically, morally,
all those kind of things,

and confidently?

Well, the only way you can
do that is is practice.

Right? You have to practice.
Some people call it role play.

I call it be smart and
know how to run the play.

Right? Know how know
how to run the play.

You know what the
question is gonna be.

Be prepared to answer the
question in a professional way.

Don't try to wing it
because when you wing it,

you're gonna you're
gonna fall on your nose,

and it's gonna hurt.

You just don't wanna do
that. So have a plan.

In fact, I I love
having I love having a

planned statements and responses

document that my
entire team works

through and understands so that
if I stop you in the middle

of the hallway and
I say, hey, man.

I just offered three choices to
the homeowner, and they said,

which one do you recommend?

What's the answer?

If they didn't
say We truly yeah.

If they didn't say at Holt
service company and I'm talking

about looking at you in
the eye the whole time.

That's part of communication.
Right? Maintain eye contact.

Be be confident in
what you're doing.

If I did it this way,

miss Carter, I'm
supposed to say that you

deserve the best, but, you
know, that's really expensive.

And I don't I don't, you know,

I don't know if that if I
did it that way, guess what?

I'm not I mean,
it's not gonna work.

And here's the
interesting thing.

When we first put
a good, better,

best type price book in the
hands of our service techs so

they could have a repair or
replace conversation without

having to bring in a sales guy,

when I first did that to a
person I had nine service techs.

To a person, all nine
of them only sold

the good systems.

Yeah.

Now why it's statistically
impossible that every customer

would buy the good system
unless they were told to buy

the good system by
their trusted adviser.

Right. Right?

Who So I said Guys,
they're just doing a solid.

Right?

Like, they Exactly.

I'm do I'm do I'm trying
to save you money. Right?

Yeah.

Well, did they really? Right?

And so when I when I realized that and
it didn't take long to figure that out.

I'm like, man, that's just that
is not something's not right here.

So I started asking
them. I said, alright.

Show me how you present
the price to the customer.

Well, I just I just go out to
my truck and look at the book,

and I just write down the
number on the service ticket

and say, here's how much
it costs to replace it.

I said, oh,

so I'm a go back
to the restaurant.

Mary, I've got a menu,

but I'm gonna keep it
back in the kitchen.

What do you want?

You don't even know
what your options are.

How uncomfortable are
you now as a homeowner?

If if you said if I said, well,
how much do you wanna spend?

You'd be like, wait
a minute. Nothing.

Yeah. Exactly.

I wanna go find a restaurant that's
got a menu they're gonna hand me.

Right?

Yeah.

So when we handed them the menu,

but then they were
making well, actually,

the problem was they weren't
handing the customer the menu.

They weren't following the
process because I sucked at

training back then.

But I learned real quick,
oh, I made an assumption.

I'm producing this really
nice, good, better,

best menu so that you can
show it to the customer.

Don't it's not
staying in your truck.

It's supposed to go in with you
when they have that question.

Now don't take it in with you
on the first part of the call.

If they say, can you give me some
idea what it would cost to replace it?

Let me go out to my truck.
I have to go get my my book.

Alright?

Because you don't go in,
like, loaded to sell a job.

You go in to fix it. That
should be the first assumption.

But once you find out
through asking questions that they're

interested in an upgrade
or a replacement,

then you bring out
your price tool.

You have the phraseology
that you need to be able to

communicate confidently.

And amazingly enough,
all of a sudden,

people go from selling thirty
five hundred dollar jobs to

twelve thousand five hundred
dollar jobs out of service truck.

Not because they're putting
pressure on people because

they're giving people choices.

Yeah.

What do you think twenty
twenty six is gonna look like?

Like, if we if we if you if you
pull your crystal ball back out

because this is
I think get this.

Yeah.

If you if you got it
handy there, you know,

twenty twenty four,
pretty good year.

And and even kind
of the pandemic,

once everybody got their PPP
and stimulus money came out and

we kinda got over the initial
hump of twenty twenty,

it was like people had money.

They're spending it. That's
held true for several years.

Now it feels like people
are starting to pull back.

So twenty twenty five, you know,

if we just look at
industry shipments,

we'd say they're down.

Lots of people picked repair.

What do you think twenty
twenty six is gonna look like?

And then I guess maybe I've
got a part b to that question,

which is who are the
contractors that are gonna be

successful in twenty twenty six
and who are the ones that won't?

Yep. Good good question.

So in my opinion and and
we've seen this I mean,

I've been doing
this a long time.

When I was running
dad's business,

I went through the r twenty
two to r four ten a transition.

So now I'm still here,

and I'm going through r four ten a to
r four fifty four b or r thirty two.

It's like, oh my god.

So I've seen a lot,

and and I've seen
economies come and go.

Right? I've seen two
thousand eight. You know?

We've seen a lot of
different things happen.

So I think we're I don't I
don't think we're on the on the

verge of a collapse
or anything like that,

but I do think that with

all the different variables
that are coming into play,

both sides of the table from a
contractor perspective and from

a homeowner perspective,

there's a high degree of
discomfort about investing a

lot of money in anything
right now, whether it's cars,

whether it's, you know,
vacations or whatever.

People are kinda holding on
right now trying to see where

is this going because, you
know, the tariff stuff,

a lot of it I know is bluster and
it's negotiating blah blah blah.

But, I mean, some of it's real stuff
that's costing us as consumers more money.

I know the cost
of equipment has,

you know, ratcheted
up tremendously.

I mean, back in my day,

I could buy a whole furnace for
three hundred and fifty bucks.

Now you can't even buy the motor for
one for three hundred and fifty bucks.

You know?

So the cost of of equipment
has risen dramatically.

The unfortunate
reality of most homes

is the the duct systems
that we're connecting

that equipment to are
marginal at best even

when brand new because they
were installed by the least

educated, lowest price,

low bid residential new
construction contractor the

builder could find.

And think about all those
variables that say, oh,

they're just gonna slap this stuff
in without balancing dampers.

There's gonna be cheap
air distribution grill.

I mean, the whole nine yards.

So we're hooking up a
high-tech piece of equipment.

If we hook it up to a
marginal duct system,

that high-tech piece of
equipment ain't so high-tech

all of a sudden.

Right?

And I know it's hard
to stop a train,

but the reality is if
it doesn't get airflow,

it'll stop just like that.

It's not a problem.

Not itself. Oh, yeah.

It's not gonna quit.

It is not the equipment
that was manufactured.

It was the way that the equipment
was applied that killed it.

It was not the equipment.

And the reality of of all those
things kinda coming together

and people being
concerned about the

the quality of air and all the
different things that people

are getting a lot smarter about,

the average sale price of
a of a job these days has

just skyrocketed.

I mean, my average sale in
nineteen seventy six not nineteen

seventy six nineteen
ninety eight.

My average sale in nineteen
ninety eight for our guys was

seventy six hundred dollars
on a replacement job.

Now that was about twice the
average of what people were

selling jobs for in
nineteen ninety eight.

My dad sold the
business in ninety nine,

and that was the last
full year we had numbers.

So

I talked to guys today pretty
regularly, and I'd ask them,

what what's your average sale price
these days on replacement jobs?

And, I mean, I'm still talking to
people that are still only selling

seven and eight
thousand dollar jobs,

but the majority of them
are well into five digits.

I mean, you know, ten like, I
just the the job I just did,

and I I paid freaking retail.

I paid retail for it because I
wanted the contractor to earn

the money that he
needed to earn.

He's a friend of mine.

I did not wanna try to
beat him up or, you know,

call on you guys and say,

me some equipment because
you like me kinda thing.

I didn't I didn't play
any of those games.

Bought at retail from this guy.

My investment I made because
I ripped everything out.

I'm talking ductwork and
everything because it was some

of that residential new construction
junk that I was talking about.

I pulled out all that equipment,

put in all new stuff,
and high-tech controls,

three zone system,
yada yada yada.

It was thirty four thousand
dollar project. Oh.

I mean, that ain't that
ain't chump change.

Right?

People, most people don't have thirty
four thousand dollars in their checkbook.

And thank you, Synchrony.
I didn't either.

So speaking of Synchrony Yeah.

We love we love our
commercial finance partners,

and and there's a lot of them.

And and it's it's
it's true. It's huge.

A huge piece. Yeah.
People Consumer.

If they're not if they're not
leading with monthly payments,

they're messing up right
now out there in the field,

I can tell you.

But, you know, kinda getting
back to your question, Stephen,

I think the I think the
confluence of all those things,

we will see an
increase in in repairs.

We will see a we will
see people trying to

limp along a little bit until
they feel a little bit more

comfortable and a little more
stable in their in their job

position and, you know,

what the economy is really gonna
settle out and do and so forth.

So I do think we'll
see more repairs.

And, you know, kinda your b
part of the question, you know,

who what who's gonna
make who's gonna make it?

Right? Who's gonna make it?

Those guys that have the
attitude that service

the service department is a
necessary evil are gonna go the

way of the dinosaur.

I mean, the service department needs
to be a very profitable part of

your business, so you need
to charge appropriately.

If they're not using flat rate
pricing systems to present

their price, I mean,

I've been preaching that since
nineteen ninety nine when my

brother started a flat
rate pricing service for

contractors way back in the day.

And I was working with
when dad sold the business,

we were both involved with
implementing flat rate service

pricing for a awful lot of
contractors across North

America.

And so they aren't, and there
are still people I find them.

When I go to these dealer
meetings, I ask all the time,

what what flat rate service
pricing system are you using?

No. We're just on time
and material. Really?

What's your what's
your labor rate?

We're at ninety dollars an hour.

I was at one twenty five
in nineteen ninety eight.

And I know people doing four
and five hundred today that

are, I mean, literally in
their flat rate price book.

Customers are not
running away from them.

They're running to them because
they do a good job taking care

of their customers.

Right. Right.

You gotta get paid what
you're worth. Right?

You have to finally get paid
what you're really worth.

So the people that
are gonna win,

they know what their cost
of doing business is.

They know what their
profitability needs to be to be

able to cover all
of their overhead,

their cost of doing business.

They know what their
cost of equipment is.

They know what their
cost of parts is,

so they know what their
job cost really is.

They're charging accordingly.

And part of that charge
includes earning enough money

as a business to continue to
educate my people so I can

empower and equip them with
the tools and training they

need to be the professional
that our customers deserve.

So the winners are gonna be
people that know how to run a

service business.

That's who the winners are.

The people that think it's
just a it's just a warranty

department or it's
just a necessary evil,

they're they're gonna struggle.

Yeah. That's so true.

So repair first
replace, not a buzzword

conversation.

What it actually is is a
conversation to dive in

with a homeowner or a
potential purchaser to say,

you know, what do
you what do you want?

What do you need? And then
show them what they deserve.

I I kinda I like that
as my power three here.

Stephen, any other thoughts for you
as we kinda wind this one down?

Well, one of the things that
I'm super stoked about in

the position that I'm in right
now as director of education

and coaching at EGIA is
we have a long standing

relationship, obviously,
with you guys,

with your manufacturer,

and and and lots of others
in the industry only because our

primary focus is
helping homeowners

be served in a way that does not

disparage the rest
of the industry.

Right?

I hate I hate it when
I see these stings that

people do, these
these news channels.

You know, they're trying to be all
nice about protecting the consumer from

unscrupulous contractors,
and there are some.

I hate it.

But those unscrupulous
contractors are not the ones

that show up at dealer meetings.

They're not the ones that show
up at training programs and get

they don't they're not
learning how to do it right.

They're learning how
to scam. You know?

So, you know, the fact
that we all, you guys, us,

and others within the industry,

are all focused on trying
to raise the level of

professionalism within our industry
is is what gets me up every day.

I mean, I should be
retired right now,

but I love it too
much to stop doing it.

As long as I have the ability
to help others be better

tomorrow than they are
today, I'm a keep doing it.

And my team is
dedicated to doing that.

We're getting ready to do a
strategic planning meeting here

in a little bit where
we're gonna say, okay.

How can we ramp it up even more?

How can we help
more contractors?

How can we help more
wholesalers be better tomorrow

than they are today
with one goal in mind,

and that is to put a
smile on homeowners.

Well, let's just say
the consumer's face.

Whether it's residential
or commercial,

it's still a person.

Because one thing hadn't
changed all the way back from

nineteen fifty six when my
grandfather started our family

heating and air business.

The one thing that hasn't
changed since nineteen fifty

six is you guys,
as a manufacturer,

have not built a self
cleaning piece of equipment,

so we gotta keep it clean.

You guys have not built a self
replacing piece of equipment,

so we gotta be there too.

So it's a people business still.

When we sell services to
homeowners, that's us. Right?

That's our product
as contractors.

That hadn't changed. That's the
one thing that hasn't changed.

Equipment's changed.

Technology's changed. How
we communicate. I love this.

How we can do this instead
of having to, you know,

show up at a trade show necessarily
and speak to the only, you know,

group of folks that are
there at the trade show.

This will have a life
that'll live for a while,

and we'll be able to
help a lot of people.

So, I mean, I love the fact
that all this is going on,

and and that's what gets
me up every morning.

So I appreciate the opportunity to
share some ideas, some insights,

and and some history about
what I've seen in this industry

since I mean, I've been
doing this way too long.

Yeah. Fifty years. Yeah.

That's great. Yeah.
Well, be careful, David.

You might be even engineering
some ideas over here by the

Stephen, any final thoughts?

No. That's good. Yeah.

It's always it's always good to
to kinda go into the new year,

thinking correctly about what
are some of the big challenges

and how we're gonna tackle it.

Yeah.

So have conversations, run
some reps with some practice.

I love the idea of owning
owning the playbook,

running the play.

I I know that I've said
it before on this podcast,

but I have sold more consumer
financing programs to my

dashboard in my car than I
probably have to real people,

but it's only because I
say it out loud a lot.

Practice, practice, practice.

Yeah. It's a really
good thing to do.

And we're privileged as we get
to practice here on the podcast

with amazing guests like David.

So David, thank you
so much for your time.

And if you have any questions
for David to our listeners

here, or if you wanna
get in touch with him,

please shoot us an email at

hvacfullblasttraintechnologies
dot com.

And we'd be happy to direct it
his way so that you can learn

more about how to get in touch with
him and his educational platform.

Thanks for being here, David.

Have a great day.

We'll catch you on the next one.