Movies We Like

“Were you rushing or were you dragging?”
Talking About Damien Chazelle’s Whiplash with our guest, hair and makeup designer Frances Hounsom
In this episode of Movies We Like, Pete Wright and Andy Nelson are joined by acclaimed hair and makeup designer Frances Hounsom to discuss her fascinating career journey and the award-winning film Whiplash. Frances shares captivating stories about her early love for cinema, the challenges of breaking into the film industry, and her experiences working on a diverse range of projects.
Throughout the conversation, Frances offers unique insights into the crucial role of a hair and makeup designer in bringing characters to life on screen. She discusses the collaborative process of working closely with actors, the importance of maintaining a positive energy on set, and the emotional impact of transforming performers for demanding roles. Frances also delves into the technical aspects of her craft, from creating prosthetics to the surprising power of hairstyles in defining a character's era.
The discussion touches on Frances' work on notable films such as Magic Mike's Last Dance  and the upcoming Sonic the Hedgehog 3, along with the challenging miniseries The Tattooist of Auschwitz. She shares behind-the-scenes anecdotes about working with talented actors like Channing Tatum, Salma Hayek, Jim Carrey, and Harvey Keitel, showcasing the unique relationships that develop between actors and their hair and makeup team.
Damien Chazelle's intense drama Whiplash serves as a focal point for the conversation, with Frances expressing her admiration for the film's powerful performances and its exploration of the sacrifices demanded by the pursuit of artistic excellence. The movie's themes resonate with Frances' own experiences in the film industry, where passion, perseverance, and the willingness to push boundaries are essential for success.
Whiplash is a must-see film for anyone interested in the depths of human ambition and the price of greatness. With its electrifying performances and masterful storytelling, it's a movie that lingers long after the final frame. Talking with Frances Hounsom about her career and her love for this film was an absolute delight, offering listeners a fascinating glimpse into the world of a hair and makeup designer and the magic they bring to the screen.
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What is Movies We Like?

Welcome to Movies We Like. Each episode, Andy Nelson and Pete Wright invite a film industry veteran to discuss one of their favorite films. What makes a movie inspirational to a cinematographer or a costume designer? Listen in to hear how these pros watch their favorite films. Part of The Next Reel family of film podcasts.

Andy Nelson:

Welcome to Movies We Like, part of the True Story FM Entertainment Podcast Network. I'm Andy Nelson, and that over there is Pete Wright.

Pete Wright:

It is. It's confirmed. It's Pete Wright.

Andy Nelson:

On today's episode, we have invited hair and makeup designer Frances Hounsom to talk about Whiplash, a movie she likes. Frances, welcome to the show.

Frances Hounsom:

Hi, guys. It's great to be here. It's I love the intros to these podcasts when it's all like, oh, this is hello. Nice to be here. It's, it's really cool.

Frances Hounsom:

It's it's an honor to be with you guys today. Thank you for spending my bank holiday Monday with me.

Pete Wright:

Oh, outstanding. And I that. Perfect. That you lifted. I saw just a peek of your notes that you lifted up as you were getting yourself sorted.

Pete Wright:

There it's there's highlighting on those pages. Has there ever been a guest more prepared? I don't believe so.

Frances Hounsom:

I love the I yeah. My whole set of I've post notes all around my laptop right now. I thought you could see the amount of information. Outstanding.

Andy Nelson:

Oh, so great. Well, before we start talking about Damien Chazelle's whiplash, let's just talk about your career a little bit. Working as a hair and makeup designer, you know, how did you, get into that career? What were your steps?

Frances Hounsom:

Sheer luck, perhaps. I always wanted to be in the film industry. Do I used to watch wizard of Oz on repeat as a child at my nanny and granddad's house, and I swear, they said, is there nothing else you wanna watch? And I was like, no. This Victor Fleming film is is everything.

Pete Wright:

I hear all the coolest kids are watching it.

Frances Hounsom:

All the coolest kids are watching it, and I was like, okay. Let's let's convert to Gone with the Wind, which was another one of his classics. So Outstanding.

Pete Wright:

If we could do if we could do everything from the first film with some casual racism. Oh, outstanding.

Frances Hounsom:

Oh, it's just terrible. That was my good yeah. That was it. And then it converted to the Santa Claus at Christmas time. So I went from Wizard of Oz to the Santa Claus, just RIP.

Frances Hounsom:

Even in the middle of June, I think I should say, Cuenta, please please can I watch the Santa Claus? And he was, no. No. Now is not the time. So he put Casablanca on.

Frances Hounsom:

So we got to Casablanca instead.

Pete Wright:

Okay. So Casablanca is the winner. Casablanca, I think, may be the first one in that list without a problematic, performer. And I think we're you've nailed it with Casablanca.

Frances Hounsom:

Thanks, Brenda. Casablanca. Yep. That's it. That was

Pete Wright:

the first one. Saved by granddad.

Frances Hounsom:

That and, as well as the Bela Lugosi, Boris Karloff, the Dracula's, the mummies of the old times. I used to watch all of those films just back to back. I loved all of that to the point I would wrap myself up in bandages as a child and put ketchup on me and and tell my parents I needed help. I think I did at that point. I do they must have just been in despair.

Frances Hounsom:

I can't actually imagine those poor my poor parents' jam. Everything that was red was seen as bloodied to me at the time. So That

Pete Wright:

well, that explains now. We were wondering why you picked Whiplash as the makeup and hair designer movie. And now it's bloody, all the bloody knuckles. Right? That's it.

Pete Wright:

It's all about the bloody knuckles.

Frances Hounsom:

That's it. Although I will say, if he was playing those drums properly, he probably wouldn't have had bloody knuckles. Well, that's a whole another discussion. That's my musical side coming out.

Pete Wright:

There there we go. But we're not we're about fantasy. We're about fantasy make believe.

Frances Hounsom:

Indeed. That's

Pete Wright:

right. And bloody knuckles. Right?

Frances Hounsom:

That's why we do this. Yep. So, yeah, I I loved all of that. I was at absolute geek at school, spent my lunchtimes in the music room and in the art room. You skipped bullied an awful lot, but that's that was life.

Frances Hounsom:

That's what made me tough and what made me the person I am today.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. Right. Right.

Frances Hounsom:

Maybe a lot of people in the film industry got bullied at school. It's it's a thing we chat about quite often, actually.

Andy Nelson:

And then you find your group.

Frances Hounsom:

Indeed you do. And it was in the art class with my teacher who used to teach me all about cameras, lenses. He was a photographer, so he taught me my love of photography came from him. He used to teach me about aperture, focal depth, everything like that. And it was, yeah, he was an amazing he was the 1st person that introduced me to a Leica, my art teacher.

Andy Nelson:

And Look at that.

Frances Hounsom:

When you see that, you're like, oh my god.

Frances Hounsom:

This is some magical camera from Germany.

Frances Hounsom:

I've never seen this before. My mom has look at Minolta that just has a film, and you just take that. I used to, I used to go home and, yeah, try and try and make my mom's Minolta into a Lyca. But I I used to set the titties up, kinda set the scene, dress the cat up, put the cat, and I was like, right, Anne, enter cat. And the cat

Pete Wright:

would walk into the tree.

Pete Wright:

Now wait a minute. How do you get from from enter cat, to makeup and hair design? Right? Why aren't you behind the camera? What is it that made you end up in the choose that particular adventure?

Frances Hounsom:

I think I am originally an artist, so I'm a painter. And I wanted to go to Central Saint Martin's, which I did for a year to study fine art, but it was very lonely. Fine art is incredibly lonely. It's great painting, but you're on your own. You've got nobody else around you, and it gets quite depressing at times.

Frances Hounsom:

Whereas I am very much people person, and I like looking after people, taking care of people, and creating. So I see humans as my canvas. So that's kind of where that love came from and a very inspiring drama teacher again at college. So many people would put you down. I remember we had a careers day, and I spoke to my careers teacher and she said, what do you wanna do?

Frances Hounsom:

And I I wanna work in film industry. And then she said, people around here don't really do that. So let's let's put you in an office. Well, should we do work at Spirit's own office? But I I don't like offices.

Frances Hounsom:

And she's, well, let's let's just try. You might learn to love it. I mean, I don't quite will. Oh.

Pete Wright:

Feels like I'm saying words, and you're not hearing them.

Andy Nelson:

That's what

Pete Wright:

it feels like to me. Yes. Yes.

Frances Hounsom:

It was I think it happened previously. It may be it's just a meeting because the teacher before, she said, what do you wanna be? No. And I wanna be an astronaut. And she said, okay.

Frances Hounsom:

Aim a bit lower. So I said, okay. A pilot. And then

Andy Nelson:

Jeez.

Pete Wright:

Not low enough.

Pete Wright:

Sure. Can we

Frances Hounsom:

should we try air stewardess? Let's go for doing a project on being an air stewardess. So I was like, okay, well, it's better close to the stars. So we'll we'll do that.

Andy Nelson:

My goodness. Yeah.

Frances Hounsom:

So I was very inspired as a child. My score were very encouraging.

Pete Wright:

It really sounds like it.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. To them

Pete Wright:

Wonderful. Nourishing nourishing your blossoming talent.

Frances Hounsom:

Nourishing me. So we, and hilariously not dropping this, but I will drop it for this point. When I won the Emmy for a project I'd done, the school reached out and said, will you come back and do a talk? I was like, no. No.

Frances Hounsom:

You're saying no. No. I did actually want to do that at school that didn't encourage

Pete Wright:

me. So That is

Pete Wright:

outstanding. That is outstanding. Outstanding.

Frances Hounsom:

Crazy.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. Right.

Frances Hounsom:

So that's it. So mom and I would trudge the streets and find out knock on all these doors before we had Internet and mobile phones and all of that and knock on the doors, find out who was a person to speak to because nobody in my family knew I didn't come from anybody who worked in fill. My dad was a central heating engineer, so I know how to fix a boiler. Easy. But Ending.

Frances Hounsom:

That I was never gonna go into that field. Yes. And my mom was a and she was a secretary at a bank, so totally unrelated fields. So we knocked on some doors, just figured out a way, and we we did it and just sheer perseverance. And I got given the chance at London College of Fashion where I studied a degree in specialist makeup and prosthetics, which was incredible.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. Big, big shift and and certainly people who encourage you

Pete Wright:

in getting

Andy Nelson:

to a place like that.

Frances Hounsom:

Indeed. Yeah. To the point that this is perhaps why I've chose a whiplash. My teacher was basically and they took it like JK Simmons in the film didn't throw a chair on me or anything like that, but Good. That's another we'll talk about that later.

Andy Nelson:

But a hairdryer? Indeed.

Pete Wright:

All I can think about is that how my wife often says, you know, you would have been a real catch if you only knew how to fix a boiler. That's the one skill. I've been married 25 years. It's the one skill I just don't know how to do.

Frances Hounsom:

Pressure. It's all about the pressure. My dad always says, check the water pressure, and you'll be fine. If that's perfect, then it the boiler will be fine.

Andy Nelson:

I learned that from watching The Shining.

Pete Wright:

See? Go check

Andy Nelson:

the pressure. I

Pete Wright:

forgot. Talk about it on

Frances Hounsom:

the job. Amazing.

Andy Nelson:

So hair and makeup, it's 2 different types of field, but it's all kind of under one umbrella. And oftentimes in the film industry, you're kind of focused on 1 or the other, or sometimes you can do both and sometimes you're gonna focus on this and this on a different film. Are there times where you find yourself on set where you are actually doing all of it?

Frances Hounsom:

Indeed. Yes. I think it's slightly different here in the UK. We do hair, makeup, and prosthetics, so we do everything. Really?

Frances Hounsom:

Whereas Really? We get paid paid for the job of 1, but we do the job of 3.

Pete Wright:

Somebody's figured it out.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. Right. Right.

Andy Nelson:

Those producers are very happy. Yeah.

Pete Wright:

This is how we can

Andy Nelson:

save. Yeah.

Frances Hounsom:

We won't just get a person who's really keen and willing to

Pete Wright:

do 3 jobs.

Frances Hounsom:

And I know but just the person

Pete Wright:

The problem for her is she just never says no. So we keep asking.

Frances Hounsom:

Exactly. Exactly. This this is the issue at the moment, but I love all 3 and to be made to choose is kind of it's very difficult. It's impossible, in fact, sometimes. Although, back in the day, hair was always seen as below makeup.

Frances Hounsom:

Makeup was always here and still is. It's kind of it's always makeup who get the award. But in fact, I think that it's more often than not, it's hair that shows a period. If you see a victory role, you think 19 forties. If you see a beehive, you think seventies.

Frances Hounsom:

You don't necessarily think of the makeup, you think of the hair. So that's what surprised me a lot about things.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. That's that's pretty interesting. And in the in the scope of it, well, I was gonna ask if you if you find yourself, like, preferring 1 or the other, but I mean, the way that you're describing, it sounds like you you really are passionate about both. And it might be one of those things where you're on a job and you're doing the hair and you're like, oh, I can't wait to get another makeup job. And then you do that and you're like, oh, it's time for more hair.

Andy Nelson:

And, like, you you find the excitement and

Frances Hounsom:

the joy in both of them. Absolutely. I love love all

Pete Wright:

of the aspects. Is there such a thing as being typecast in the role? Like, you won the Emmy for hairstyling. Right? I mean, specifically for hairstyling.

Pete Wright:

Does that mean they want you for hairstyling going forward after you're an Emmy winner for hairstyling?

Frances Hounsom:

Surprisingly not. I think when I first won the award, this is kind of funny, the phone stopped ringing because people get scared and they think you're too expensive now. They're like, well, I can't afford it anymore.

Andy Nelson:

Check that one off the list. Alright.

Frances Hounsom:

Guys, try me. I'm still

Pete Wright:

Yeah. Right.

Frances Hounsom:

So, so then I stopped. I I stopped doing the whole Ricky Gervais thing and took all the awards cabinet down behind me for Zoom calls. I was like, no. Yeah. Don't even mention it.

Frances Hounsom:

And then then we went that went full force. It was very interesting So long. Surely.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. That's really fascinating.

Andy Nelson:

And there are times also where you're working on a job, and I I'm not exactly sure about the way that this progressed, but, like, you were on Magic Mike's last last dance. Right? And you were working on, from my understanding, hair and makeup of that film.

Frances Hounsom:

Indeed. Yep.

Andy Nelson:

And then you go on to do Black Mirror at the same time. And your personal makeup for Salma Hayek, was there a crossover between those 2 in relation of, working with Salma?

Frances Hounsom:

Yeah. Indeed. We, did Magic Mike, and, obviously, it was incredible to design it and, look after Chan, who's an incredible human. We had the best time.

Pete Wright:

As a sidebar, how much, makeup went actually on his abs?

Frances Hounsom:

No. No. He worked really hard. God. He was he told me

Pete Wright:

this unfortunate. I I don't even know that.

Frances Hounsom:

He told me this thing which I tried, and I obviously failed at because I don't have abs like him, but it's called the dehydration technique. So you basically dehydrate the times you have to take your top off. And when you dehydrate, it brings your muscles out more. So I tried it, but I think you have to have muscles there to begin with to to bring them up.

Andy Nelson:

So was he pretty much dehydrated during the entire production

Frances Hounsom:

for that? The entire the entire time.

Pete Wright:

I see. I I just have to take a break away. I'm gonna turn off the water to my house. Like, let's just go we're going cold turkey.

Frances Hounsom:

I do not support this method in any way. I just put it out there.

Pete Wright:

Anyway Oh, gosh.

Frances Hounsom:

But it was amazing. And he ate a pizza and then cupcakes and everything on the last day. He was he went for a hamburger, but he he worked very hard. We just we just spray tan. Every kind of 3 days, we did a spray tan.

Frances Hounsom:

It's great. It's wonderful.

Pete Wright:

Sounds like it sounds like real scut work. Yeah.

Frances Hounsom:

Right? Hard work. It was a very difficult process. I

Andy Nelson:

And and but you worked with Salma on that, and did did that lead to working? Like, she just enjoyed working with you and so wanted you

Frances Hounsom:

And then she I got the phone call and then she said, I want you to come and do salsa with me at 5 AM on this other job. And so we went and we went and I adore her. I love her energy. I love I just she's a character in herself. She's an incredible human, and I have a lot of respect for her.

Frances Hounsom:

She's wild in the best of ways.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. Can we talk just briefly about tattooist?

Frances Hounsom:

Of course.

Pete Wright:

I didn't know I didn't know it existed, frankly, until because, you you know, I mean, you can't you can't watch everything.

Frances Hounsom:

Exactly.

Pete Wright:

Andy Sandy messaged me last night and said, do you have peacock? You have to have peacock. Go go check this out. And I was blown away. First of all, what an incredible incredible story, incredible project.

Pete Wright:

And I have not finished it yet because

Frances Hounsom:

Oh, you're totally binge watch.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. It No. I feel like

Frances Hounsom:

heavy series to binge watch.

Pete Wright:

Oh my god. After a couple of episodes, I, like, feel like I have the bends. Like, I just need to I need to walk go touch grass. The, but but I'm curious for you. I mean, you seem so so kind and energetic and uplifting as a human being.

Pete Wright:

And what goes into, working collaboratively with people to to make them appear their worst?

Frances Hounsom:

Oh, god. That's a great question, actually. I wish more people would ask that. It's, I think one of the big things is keeping that uplifting energy. That's really important and keeping everyone energized and happy and positive no matter what I was feeling inside.

Frances Hounsom:

And I went through a few personal things on that job as well, but you you kinda put that aside for what we're doing. But I think to keep peep like, little things, shaving the heads is the biggest thing, and it's huge for me personally as well because I'm the one doing the shaving. I'm dehumanizing these people myself, and that's that's a whole other therapy session in itself. But we did we broached it in different ways, and it was put on your favorite song, relax, get in the mood for it. One of our amazing actresses put on Britney Spears, and she said, I'm doing a Britney, so we need to put on Britney Spears like she's shaving her head.

Frances Hounsom:

What you do you Adorable. Whatever whatever helps.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Frances Hounsom:

So we we did Britney with her, and we did a a time lapse process and I really talked them into I said, do you wanna wear wigs that we can do wigs? I can make wigs. I'm a wig maker. I can do all these things for you. And most of them said, no.

Frances Hounsom:

We we really do want to shave our heads. We wanna feel the part if we're here. We've built the concentration camps in a field in Slovakia, which was insane. We wanna we wanna be in that world as it were. It's a really tough thing to say, but they wanted to be the part.

Frances Hounsom:

And it was a kind of 4 month shoot. So they were walking. I had all these people walking around Slovakia or Bratislava, which isn't a very big city, and you bumped into constantly the actors with shaved heads and baseball caps. And I thought, god, I've done this to all of you or what?

Andy Nelson:

Oh, man.

Frances Hounsom:

So I would tie my hair back every single day so I didn't feel like, look at my long luscious locks.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. Right.

Frances Hounsom:

So Yeah. So I used to just try and, yeah, it was it was tricky, but you just make light of it to the point that some of them have kept the shaved head to this day, which is amazing. They love it so much. Wow. They they

Andy Nelson:

connect clicked with it. Yeah.

Pete Wright:

Well, as a style, it's very convenient.

Frances Hounsom:

Very convenient.

Andy Nelson:

There is that. There is that.

Frances Hounsom:

Yeah. Yeah. Very true. So yeah.

Andy Nelson:

To your point, I think it is, an important thing to note on sets because, there's kind of a a way of getting actors out to set. And one of the people that they're gonna spend a lot of time with is their hair and makeup, designer, the people that are working on them for quite a bit of time prepping them. And every hair makeup designer that I've ever met are always bubbly and, effervescent and very friendly because they need to kind of bring that energy for the actors to have so that they feel ready to come on to set. And they're, they, they aren't feeling like somebody else is burdening with all of their problems and everything. It's just like, it's, it's a big help.

Andy Nelson:

And I think that's a key part of your role. It's not, I mean, obviously, the hair makeup is a big part of it, but providing that space for them, I think, is is critical.

Frances Hounsom:

I totally, totally, totally agree. It's it's probably we always talk about it. It's probably 70% therapist, 30% makeup and hair. So we are I I one day on my deathbed, I will write a book. I know everyone's affairs.

Frances Hounsom:

I know who's been doing what with who. I know who had a late night last night and who didn't. I who's still drunk at work. I totally cover for that as well. It's so many so many things.

Andy Nelson:

Oh my god.

Pete Wright:

Oh, the stories I wanna hear about Hytale. Oh my god.

Frances Hounsom:

Oh, I love him. He, I I mean, I personally had a wonderful experience with Harvey, and he used to leave the makeup truck. We were arm in arm,

Frances Hounsom:

and he'd go, hey. Which way to Hollywood? I was

Frances Hounsom:

like, I I think it's right. Should we should we go right? Let's let's get in the car and see.

Pete Wright:

Oh, I love that. You and Kytel, Thelma and Louise ing it across the pond. Yeah.

Frances Hounsom:

Perfect. Were. And he used to buy me these chocolate bomb cakes when he went to Vienna for the day, and, he was we had a wonder. We used to dance, and I used to be a jazz singer years ago. So we he very much cottoned on to that fact.

Frances Hounsom:

It was that I need you to sing to get me into the part. I oh, Harvey, I can't do this every day. To the point that on set, he'd go, can Fran come in and sing to me? Now can you imagine? Wow.

Frances Hounsom:

Me on the sofa, thanks to Harvey quietly singing into his ear with a camera crew and AD and all of this watching on quietly.

Pete Wright:

Oh my god. Goodness.

Frances Hounsom:

Oh, it was quite an experience.

Pete Wright:

You have the best job in the world.

Frances Hounsom:

It was it was wonderful. We we I wish that it's sort of these things that people watch the show and they have no idea about, but he put so much thought into that character. He he had cue cards of images. There were so many things. He's he's amazing.

Frances Hounsom:

He really is.

Pete Wright:

Well, he's certainly extraordinary as Sokolov. He's extraordinary.

Frances Hounsom:

He was. He was brilliant. And he's he's well, had a prosthetic. Did you see this piece? Yeah?

Frances Hounsom:

Yeah.

Pete Wright:

Well, I

Pete Wright:

mean, I this was just, like, did I see it? No. I didn't see it, which is incredible. Right? Like, it's incredible.

Pete Wright:

It's only when you go back to IMDB and are, like, kind of cruising credits and look at his promo picture and realize, oh my god. They changed the shape of his head completely.

Frances Hounsom:

Totally that. And I

Pete Wright:

And it was seamless. It was perfect.

Frances Hounsom:

Well, thank you. It's a lot of a lot of we I work with Vincent Van Dyke, amazing prosthetics, creator who based in based in LA actually. And, he shipped the pieces over and I stuck them on, colored them, and stuck a wig on, and we went to set. It was that every morning, which was great.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. It's fantastic. It really is. It's fantastic.

Frances Hounsom:

Thank you.

Andy Nelson:

Knowing that you do the prosthetics over there, like, where is the line as far as, prosthetics that you do versus, like, when someone else is coming on to do something? Like, if it's like a like a a finger that is is, missing or something like that or or something on it or something? Like, is that still part of your job? Or

Frances Hounsom:

Tricky crossover. So, yes, the finger that's missing, I can do, but then that's a mixture of me and VFX. So I can give you the finger and make that part. Halloween around my house, just to add, is absolutely brilliant because I just hang body parts everywhere.

Andy Nelson:

Oh my god. That's fantastic.

Frances Hounsom:

So a little bit sadistic. I think it's good. Kids don't knock at my front door anymore because I have, like, an arm and a leg hanging there, and I think they go, oh, can you avoid that one?

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. Right.

Pete Wright:

You don't have to buy any candy. Of course, you spend about $7 in prosthetics and Absolutely. Equipment. But yeah.

Frances Hounsom:

The house looks and I do the funny thing whereas I put the fake hand down my top, and I go, do you want a hand? But that's that's a whole different story. But, yes.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. Right?

Frances Hounsom:

So the finger would be me. VFX would do the other piece, but if you're going bigger and you're making silicone bodies and severed heads and things like that, then you bring in a whole kind of prosthetics team. I work closely with Marc Coulier, who's an incredible, like, 50,000,000 times Oscar winning prosthetics designer who's just sensational. And he would do those bigger things. So I would do bullet wounds.

Frances Hounsom:

I'll do severed arms, wounds, or things like that. But then if I need the big guns to come in, I'll I'll always call him to help.

Andy Nelson:

Sure. Sure. Sure.

Pete Wright:

Talking about sort of the evolution of the industry, you've been doing this specific work for, what, over a decade. Right?

Frances Hounsom:

I've no. You're gonna show my age now. I've been doing it for

Pete Wright:

I'm not gonna show anything. I'm not gonna show anything. That's why I left it. It's just raw. We keep people thinking tense.

Pete Wright:

Plus or minus 10 years. But I 17.

Frances Hounsom:

I have been doing it for 17 years.

Pete Wright:

Okay. See,

Pete Wright:

you're the one who showed it. There you go. We're okay.

Frances Hounsom:

Thanks.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. I'm curious how the experience of working on set has changed over over this particular period because technology and presentation has changed so much, and it seems to be changing so fast. What's the experience like for you?

Frances Hounsom:

So much. It's changed an awful lot just in that short period of time, I think. And I I have a lot of obviously older colleagues in the industry who tell tell me how it was previous as well. And it just every day it's changing in the sense of technology, in the sense of budgets. I will say budgets are kinda dropping sadly.

Frances Hounsom:

That's going down when it in theory, it should be going up with inflation, but in the name, that's another story. But it's it's that. And now because of the amount of content, just because of all the streamers that we have, we used to have BBC 1, 2, ITV, channel 4, and channel 5 at a push in the UK, and then movies, you would go to the cinema. Whereas now we just have streaming service after streaming service. Just new content new content and people craving new content daily.

Frances Hounsom:

So the amount of stuff that gets made is not necessarily as good as quality as it used to be perhaps in some respects, and the amount of money that goes into things is a lot less. People just wanna see crime nowadays. Everybody loves a crime documentary. That's that's one of the biggest the biggest things I think Netflix churns out.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. Right?

Frances Hounsom:

But it's yeah. It's it's changed an awful lot and the technology has changed for the good and for the bad in some respects like the AI stuff. I know we have a massive thing going on about that which really does it's it's tricky for the makeup industry and prosthetics industry because a lot of actors caught on to the fact perhaps they don't have to sit in a chair for 3 hours. They can have it CGI or visually enhanced on them with a few blue dots on their face. So some are going down that path, but some are still very loyal to the to the planet.

Frances Hounsom:

I've recently, worked with Jim Carrey. I was his personal hair designer for, Sonic, and he is absolutely incredible. I was floored the day I met him because he's my childhood just there.

Pete Wright:

Oh, yeah.

Frances Hounsom:

And he he fully went full prosthetic for everything, and that helps him become that part. It helps with his walk. It helps with his head, the way he speaks, the way he becomes that character. It just it he morphs from Jim Carrey into this Robotnik or he's the granddaddy. He's just he's incredible.

Frances Hounsom:

So it's it's a shame if that does start dying. I really don't want that to happen. But we have to work together. We have to work with VFX to kinda start collaborating and and teamwork in which we did a lot on the tattooist actually. Our VFX team worked in sensational.

Frances Hounsom:

We worked very closely.

Pete Wright:

So in what context? I mean, can you can you give me an example of what what I undoubtedly missed as a composite job?

Frances Hounsom:

Absolutely. Emaciated bodies is probably the biggest one because you can't find supporting artists that are emaciated. So we had to kind of I contoured the abs, and I would contour the collarbones and highlight and darken as much as I can, contour jaw lines, all of this, but they still aren't absolutely emaciated. Like, unfortunately, the bodies were in those that those times. So VFX helped make them smaller and emaciated bodies.

Frances Hounsom:

It's something that goes very unnoticed, and you just think, oh, it's there. But when you think about the process, hang on a minute. We don't have people that look like this today.

Pete Wright:

No. Yeah. Right. Right. Extraordinary.

Pete Wright:

Yeah.

Andy Nelson:

Wow. Yeah. You mentioned you brought up Sonic that you did with, Jim Carrey. Obviously, that is very fantastical and a totally different type of work that you're doing on that.

Frances Hounsom:

Yes.

Andy Nelson:

When you're approaching a project, I mean, it's it's very different. I mean, approaching something like the task tattooist of Auschwitz or song the hedgehog 3, what is your process of getting into the work that you're going to be bringing into that project?

Frances Hounsom:

I think personally, I after doing the tattooist, it was quite a tough job emotionally, so I just needed something really uplifting. I needed a comedy. I needed something happy, and Jim Carrey came up. I thought, well, that you can't beat Jim Carrey. I'm not I'm not gonna say no to that.

Frances Hounsom:

So it's I I choose products mostly on the script, but mostly just on who I'm working with and what I can create on that job. That's what's I mean, like, when I got the tattoo script, I thought, wow, this is this is tough. This is gonna be really tough, but I wanna bring that, and I think it's a story that needs to be told, so I really wanna support that that process. So it's, yeah, it's all that kind of a and I'd not fussed about budgets. Obviously, big budgets are incredible, but I equally love very good scripts.

Frances Hounsom:

So if you get a good script, and sadly, great scripts and great dramas don't have big budgets, and comedies, and they don't have large budgets nowadays. So, if if I like the script, I'll do the job.

Andy Nelson:

What's your department size on a small budget versus a large budget?

Frances Hounsom:

We can go from a I should just to thinking of my incredible team that I work so hard sometimes, and they're always so grateful. Hey. Don't you wanna sleep? I think you don't. But you don't sleep, so why do we?

Frances Hounsom:

Oh, please. If I go down the window window scene.

Andy Nelson:

Right.

Frances Hounsom:

So, we'd probably go from a team of 4 with perhaps 2 artists coming to do background up to a team of, I think, a team of, like, a 100. We've we go up we've had I've had a

Pete Wright:

Oh, shame, honey.

Frances Hounsom:

100 strong crowd team before and, probably 10, 15 main team. It's yeah. It can go from anywhere up to anything.

Pete Wright:

Well and that's a that's a thing. I you know, talking about tattooist, talk talking about letter for the king. Like, we these are projects with an enormous number of supporting artists. Like, it seems like dealing with with these sort of massive crowds. I assume we're dealing with massive crowds and we're not CG ing a lot of people in the background.

Pete Wright:

Nope.

Frances Hounsom:

They were crowds. They were were in mostly I mean, tattooist suits, like, every single day, and Letter for the King was the same. But I had a wonderful Slovakian crowd team who unfortunately, in Slovakia, they don't really film an awful lot. They've never done a big project to the scale. They normally do 2 weeks visits.

Frances Hounsom:

I think Jack Reacher went there for a couple of weeks, things like that.

Pete Wright:

Right.

Frances Hounsom:

But, but they've never done it to this scale. So we laughed at the beginning of the job because it was basically the makeup and hair school run by Fran for about 4 months teaching Slovakian artists how to do it the film and TV way. And I had a wonderful assistant who was my translator because not many people speak great English. So that was also very tricky, but fun, but so fun. And now I've I've left there hopefully, and I've left them with some knowledge and some tools for the future, and I left them with a lot of illustrator palettes.

Frances Hounsom:

So I was like, guys, take all this stuff because I want you to progress. I want you to to be amazing, and and they are. I had to

Andy Nelson:

Practice practice.

Frances Hounsom:

Absolutely.

Pete Wright:

Well and and to help cultivate a a fantastic international location to bring big budget projects to in the future. Like, that's incredible to seed that place.

Frances Hounsom:

Which is amazing to be a tiny pioneer, that little tiny Yeah. Right. Almost a fat

Pete Wright:

Tiny pioneer.

Pete Wright:

That's Tiny pioneer. That's such a thing.

Frances Hounsom:

We I would go into hairdressers and beauty salons out there, and nobody again could speak English. So I just have the old Slovakian Google translate, and I would pull people from hair salons and go, do you wanna work on a film or a TV series? They go, what? What? What?

Frances Hounsom:

We don't know. I'm like, yeah. It's a thing. Come on. Get in the minibus.

Pete Wright:

Helping Slovakians trust minibuses.

Frances Hounsom:

Just kidnap loads of hairdressers with minibosses and the promise of a free meal, and they came for the ride.

Andy Nelson:

And they came.

Frances Hounsom:

Came in their 100, which, was wonderful. I'm gonna say that the amount of support was incredible. It really was.

Andy Nelson:

But all the poor Slovakians who went to get a haircut that day and couldn't because you had kidnapped the curse.

Pete Wright:

However long you guys were in Slovakia, the average hair length went crazy.

Pete Wright:

That was

Frances Hounsom:

so true. It was like COVID all over again for the poor people of Batuselah. You'll just become yetis. Well, my hairdresser's gone. They're over there earning more money on a film set so they could they're off.

Andy Nelson:

They're fine. Yeah.

Pete Wright:

We'll get

Pete Wright:

you over haircuts again.

Andy Nelson:

Oh, man.

Frances Hounsom:

We used to say to them, come up in it. The people that we used to get so many as because again, they didn't we had so many SAs that they didn't necessarily have an essay agency big enough there. So there was many, many, many first timers that had no idea. It's like, don't look down the lens. What?

Frances Hounsom:

No. Don't look down the lens. Okay.

Pete Wright:

Right. You're doing it right now.

Frances Hounsom:

Exactly. So it was, it was we had to make light of of many of these moments, obviously, because it was tough, so we did. And the main cast were just phenomenal. And our friends to this day, we we all get on very, very well.

Andy Nelson:

That's awesome. How fun.

Frances Hounsom:

It was great.

Andy Nelson:

Well, I think this is a good time to shift our conversation. I mean, it's been great chatting about you, but I know we really all 3 of us want to get into this conversation talking about Damien Chazelle's whiplash.

Frances Hounsom:

Absolutely. This place is nice.

Trailer:

I really like the music that they play. Bob Ellis on the drums. I'm part of Schaeffer's top jazz orchestra. It's the best music school in the country.

Pete Wright:

The key is to just relax. Don't worry about the numbers. Don't worry about what the other guys are thinking. You're here for a reason. Have fun.

Pete Wright:

56 and.

Trailer:

I wanna be great.

Frances Hounsom:

And you're not.

Pete Wright:

You got Buddy Rich here. Little trouble there. You're rushing. Here we go. 5, 6, and.

Pete Wright:

Were you rushing or were you dragging?

Trailer:

I I don't know.

Pete Wright:

If you deliberately sabotage my band, I will gut you like a pig. Oh, my dear god. Are you one of those single peer people? You are a worthless pansy ass who is now weeping and slobbering all over my drum set like a 9 year old girl.

Andy Nelson:

So how's it going with, Studio Bend? Good. Yeah.

Trailer:

I think he likes me more now.

Pete Wright:

I push people beyond what's expected of. I believe that is an absolute necessity.

Trailer:

I wanna be one of the greats. And because I'm doing that, it's gonna take up more of my time, and this is why I don't think that we should be together.

Pete Wright:

I would never let him put my son through hell. Why would you let get away with what he did to you? There are no two words in the English language more harmful than good job.

Andy Nelson:

Where did you, first see this film? Like and and how did it hit you that first time?

Frances Hounsom:

Oh, god. Where did I first see it? I think I saw it in a movie theater in New York, actually. I think which you guys have a very different movie theater experience in America, and I found out and I found that out years ago. In the UK, we don't necessarily clap at the end of film.

Frances Hounsom:

We don't go, whoop whoop. Yeah, man. Woah. Yeah. We we just don't really do that.

Andy Nelson:

It's just if it's anything, it's the quiet little British. Right. Absolutely.

Frances Hounsom:

It's a very refined, quiet little clap or the Queen's wave. That's just what we all do.

Pete Wright:

With the queen's wave at the end of a at the end of a movie. Stop. Elbow, elbow,

Pete Wright:

wrist, wrist. Okay.

Frances Hounsom:

Alright. So, yeah, it was it was an experience, and and hearing people cheer and go, I thought, wow. This is great. I quite like this. And I kind of tried to bring it back here, but it went down like a dead balloon.

Frances Hounsom:

So we're not gonna do that.

Andy Nelson:

People were like, who is this person making all these noises in the back of the theater?

Frances Hounsom:

She's like at a baseball game. She's at leave. So it's, it was very much that, and I remember seeing it. I think I sat there, and I always watch the credits as you do. Just respect to our fellow creatives.

Frances Hounsom:

And Absolutely. Just sat in the cinema at the end for about 20 minutes staring at a blank screen thinking, oh my god. Damien Chazelle, who are you? Like, the most phenomenal, incredible, young, beautiful, wonderful director of of the new age. He is just I yeah.

Frances Hounsom:

I had to go back and see it the next day, which I did.

Andy Nelson:

Fantastic. Fantastic. Had you seen the short film, or was this kind of like you were walking into this blind or not really knowing about it?

Frances Hounsom:

Blind. Absolutely blind. I'd seen this film. I think it's Guy and Madeleine on a park bench. I think that's the one he did before that.

Frances Hounsom:

I've seen that and loved that. So I'd loved what he was trying to create. And then this was just like, wow. This was yeah. So I've watched the short film since, which I think they made on, like, $28,000 or something like that, which again is is amazing.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. Right. Right. Which which is kind of like a scene from this. It's, you know, it's the scene when when when Andrew first, gets to play and the whole are you are you, rushing or are you dragging that whole conversation?

Pete Wright:

Not my temper. Not my temper.

Frances Hounsom:

Not my tempo. Not my tempo. This is what I say at work sometimes. I go, guys, not my tempo. It's not my tempo.

Frances Hounsom:

And then I'll be quiet. Stop with the whiplash quotes.

Andy Nelson:

As you're getting ready to do

Pete Wright:

I try to do the the Simmons fist thing all the time It's to my kids. They don't buy it. It's really hard. And, also, I'm not cut like JK Simmons. Like, I'm working on it, but, really, he looks great in his arms.

Frances Hounsom:

Dehydration. Dehydration. I'm just going back there.

Andy Nelson:

Full circle. Right.

Pete Wright:

Oh, yeah. It's in it's incredible. So this movie is legit, like, my favorite movie, and it's been on my letterbox number 1 for years. How many years? I don't know.

Pete Wright:

All of them. And Yep. So I'm I'm hugely, I I I find this movie really, really fascinating. I also when I tell people that I love this movie and I find it inspirational as an education movie, they look at me and they say, are you a sociopath? I am curious your take on the ultimate message of the movie.

Pete Wright:

The are you inspired by the movie, or you Or you just inspired by the filmmaking?

Frances Hounsom:

Okay. This is this is great because I've been thinking about this a lot lately. So

Pete Wright:

Is it on one of your Post Its?

Frances Hounsom:

It's right.

Pete Wright:

Where am

Frances Hounsom:

I left? Left or right? No. The genuinely, I the the 2 of them ultimately win at the end of the film, which kind of isn't right because he wins because he's created the best drummer in the world, and it's like, look at my live band. They're incredible because of me.

Frances Hounsom:

And then, Naaman wins because he's, like, the most incredible drummer in the world, and he's proving it to the audience, and he's taking control of that stage and absolutely owns it. So they both win, which is kind of showing us that maybe being an abusive teacher works, which it shouldn't do. But going back to my university experience, my teacher did always used to put me down and always said, no, you can do better. And every day I showed him my project I was so proud of and he go, no, that's not good enough. Or there was times he did throw a talcao across the room.

Frances Hounsom:

It was a small hairbrush. And I was and I I thought, oh, god. I just can't win. Whereas, the other colleagues, some of my colleague, like, other students in the classroom, like, oh, this is amazing. This is an incredible project for how you're good.

Frances Hounsom:

Why are you not saying this to me? And when I graduated with a first, I said to him, look, I I I got a first. Am I good enough now? And he said, I was like that to you because that's how you needed to be taught. You needed that constant me on your back to be better because I know you were the best and you just needed that.

Frances Hounsom:

So interesting.

Pete Wright:

Is that true? Okay. So for you, put yourself back there. Is that true? Do you feel like you could have gotten your first if it hadn't been for the teacher on your back?

Frances Hounsom:

I feel like I work better like that. Yes. Because I've worked with a few directors like that since who are very quick to criticize and never I mean, it's a film industry or whatever, really. Everyone's always very quick to criticize and never never quick to praise. It's one of those things.

Frances Hounsom:

So it's you're constantly searching for that praise and that good girl, like, well done, or good, well, good job. And and that's unfortunately, I think in the past, we all to this day, we probably give out the word good job too easily. That's the thing like I there was a thing I was reading from JK Simmons with kids going down slides in parks. So the kid sits at the top of the slide, goes down the slide, and the mom goes, good job. Good job.

Frances Hounsom:

Oh my god. This is amazing. What? Basically, gravity. It's gravity.

Pete Wright:

Right. They haven't

Frances Hounsom:

done anything.

Pete Wright:

There was no contributing participant. Yeah.

Frances Hounsom:

They've just sat and gone down a slide and then that gets praised. So perhaps we're a little bit too quick to give that out in some respects, nowadays, but it's, yeah, I work better under that kind of pressure, and I think he's a very big reason I got the first in the end is because of my teacher. And he had that smirk in his eye at the end of that. Oh, god. Oh, hate to say that you're right, but you're right.

Frances Hounsom:

Yeah. But, obviously, the Fletcher Simmons does it to a whole different level, throwing a chair, and he's just horrid. He is quite a horrid man.

Pete Wright:

Well, he is. And and, you know, part of the the beauty of their relationship is that they're both sort of horrid as Yeah. One as a student, one as a teacher, and together they are combustible. And it is the nature of that combustion that creates the opportunity to do the final performance and for Andrew to take control of the stage and essentially conduct the band from the drums and then give Fletcher a chance to shine too. Right?

Pete Wright:

To take to to work as a as collaborator. So it goes from combustion to collaboration, and that's the journey of the story of the teacher student, and that is the thing that I appreciate about the narrative so much. That's why it's one of my favorite movies because you have to watch it, like, 5 times to realize that both of these guys have best interests at heart and have no idea how to communicate that to the world.

Frances Hounsom:

Absolutely that. And that's, so that's huge. I mean, he has the intent. They both have such an intense strong passion for what they do, and it's just 2 passions colliding and drive the driving each other forwards that's literally what he's driving him, he's driving him, and it's they get to that point where they just combust at the end and it's the most beautiful combustion on stage. It's it's just incredible.

Andy Nelson:

Well, and and to your point, Pete, I mean, it it is interesting how awful, Andrew can be also. Right. You know? Like like, he like when he's having that dinner with his, with his dad and those, those friends that that kind of that his family friends are cousins. I'm not exactly sure what they are, but, like, he goes and turns completely terrible at them because, I mean, as you were saying, like, this idea of just that kind of blind praise, that they're giving to their sons about, oh, he's such a great player.

Andy Nelson:

He's gonna be great for the school this year. And he's just like, yeah, but they're just division 3. Like, he really starts digging on them. And I know there's part of it, like, he didn't feel like they were paying him enough attention or or just not even paying attention, but just like that sense of, like, dismissive people that, like, they ask him about how he's doing on his drums and then completely change the subject and and don't pay attention. So, I mean, he kind of gets irritated at them, but there is kind of this arrogance that he carries throughout the film.

Andy Nelson:

And there is a level of maybe he does need to be taken down a peg a little bit to actually get to a place where he understands that he does need to learn these things. It's just, yeah, maybe throwing chairs isn't necessarily the way to do it. But Well,

Pete Wright:

I think that's those examples are right on, Andy, because they I think people watch this movie and the focus is squarely on Fletcher as the sociopathic teacher. And people forget that if you just look at the student and realize in almost every scene, he's an asshole to somebody. Right?

Frances Hounsom:

He is not. Even when he says

Andy Nelson:

it.

Pete Wright:

Poor Melissa Benowitz. Doesn't he know she's Supergirl? Come on.

Frances Hounsom:

So He could get far enough down the line to find out. He just literally were like, I can't do this. My career is too important. Blah. You're off.

Pete Wright:

Yep. Yeah. Well, I'm gonna go save, you know, the planet.

Frances Hounsom:

Go save the world and become super darling. Show you how it's done.

Pete Wright:

Screw it. Screw off. That's fine. Exactly. Okay.

Pete Wright:

You said though that this was not a heavily makeup and hair movie. Simmons, notably, has no hair.

Frances Hounsom:

That's right.

Pete Wright:

So how do you look at this movie from that perspective? Like, what do you notice that, we're missing?

Frances Hounsom:

Oh, tough question. I kinda look at this movie from a filmmaker perspective. It's it's I think, there's little things in there, like, we we spoke about the bloody knuckles and things like that, which perhaps if you're playing the drums right in the first place wouldn't necessarily happen, so there's a bit of artistic license there. And I am a musician so I can say these things just from the record. And for me, it's just the way the light bounces off of his shiny head, shall we say.

Frances Hounsom:

It's the perfectly lit movie. We have kind of the golds and browns when everything's a bit happy and calm and when Niemann is in his kinda happy place. And then when he's in his outside his comfort zone or somewhere where he's not playing the drums, it kinda bluey green. So for me, just colors. That's how I I see this film from, obviously, an art point of view.

Frances Hounsom:

It's it's that. It's the lighting and the grade that's been put on the end of it that I absolutely appreciate to the hilt.

Andy Nelson:

And there's quite a bit of sweat too, though. And I I know that that's that also ends up being something that you're doing with, you know, bringing more spritz, you know, kind of

Frances Hounsom:

like, let's

Andy Nelson:

let's get people wet. So, but I mean, it does get to a point where you're you're kind of like needing to get them drenched and stuff as as he really progresses when he's when he's doing those, speed. I don't know what you call it in the world of drumming, but just like speed drumming where he's just trying to go as fast as he can and just yeah. As as long as he can. And I imagine some of that is actually Miles Teller's real sweat.

Andy Nelson:

But also, I'm sure that, in your department, you're trying to come in and enhance it or maybe reduce it and everything. And so there that's a whole aspect as well that probably plays into this film quite a bit.

Frances Hounsom:

Absolutely. That's a huge part. Again, because of light reflecting and things like that with the sweat is a lot of the times, the actor goes, I need to be sweaty. And I I go, well, go run around the block. Create your own sweat.

Frances Hounsom:

Come on. Let's get into the park. Yeah. Obviously, I will also oblige and do what I need to do. But with the sweat as well, it's a point that there's many times that this has happened.

Frances Hounsom:

They get more sweat, more sweat. I'm like, look at the actor with your eye. They are absolutely drenched. Like, they've just walked out of a lake. Sometimes, you need to light the sweat just so it pings, and it gets that glint.

Frances Hounsom:

So if we could just have a quick chat with the girlfriend, the DOP, just to get a little bit light in there, might help you see the sweat. Or we've got some beautiful, like, Superbolter vintage lenses where everything's a little bit blurred. Or recently I've been working with, Steven Soderbergh. Oh, absolute legend. And he

Pete Wright:

has his beautiful black bag. Right?

Frances Hounsom:

Yes. Black bag. He has these beautiful lenses that have been made for him. I think they're hawks. And they have a constant halo effect over everything.

Frances Hounsom:

So it softens things slightly. So, again, you can't see any sweat. So it's like, oh, I don't know what you want here. Go extreme close-up. So sometimes it's chippy.

Frances Hounsom:

But, yes, I do pick out.

Pete Wright:

Pedestrian question. Is it easier to make someone sweat or make them sweat less?

Frances Hounsom:

Oh, it dip all depends on the room, the lights, the situation. If it's hot, they're gonna sweat. It's one of those things. Probably a lot easier to add sweat than it is to keep going in and taking it away with tissues, fans, everything. It's yeah.

Frances Hounsom:

Like, dancers on Magic Mike, they would just sweat constantly because their dancing is insane. They were just going for it.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of

Frances Hounsom:

adds to the look, really. So

Pete Wright:

and that's that's Teller. This is Teller's sweat. I think that's the canonical truth. This is Teller's sweat.

Frances Hounsom:

He I'm gonna give him the credit

Pete Wright:

for that because of that. Yeah.

Andy Nelson:

Right. Right. Right. Right.

Pete Wright:

So Yes.

Pete Wright:

Right. If there were still an MTV movie award for for sweat, it would it would go

Pete Wright:

out there.

Frances Hounsom:

Go to Teller. Yeah. But Jay Giesemann's he doesn't really sweat all the way through. If you I don't know if you've noticed. I have looked at that tiny point.

Frances Hounsom:

He just stays very neutral. He never gets to that point. Even though he's conducting an orchestra on stage, he still doesn't sweat.

Pete Wright:

Okay. So, symbolically, what do you think that means? Because I think it means something in their relationship.

Frances Hounsom:

I I don't know. I think maybe because he's just always cool, calm, and collected, and that's the point. Even in the height of drama, he's still the coolest man in the room, which, I mean, he actually is is j k sevens. I saw him coming out of a lift once in London, and he was the same.

Pete Wright:

And he's so cool. Cool. Yeah. And cool. The even the trailer for the new he plays Santa Claus in The Rock movie.

Pete Wright:

I can't think what it's called. He's lifting. He says, let's go heavy. Yeah. Red one.

Pete Wright:

He and The Rock actually hold their own together, in

Frances Hounsom:

the same frame. And Absolutely.

Pete Wright:

Else could do that, Simmons. Did that think there is something symbolically about what he is as a manufactured idol for Absolutely. In this movie. Right? That there is something that that has to he has to constantly look like dry plastic because

Frances Hounsom:

Yeah.

Pete Wright:

To Andrew, he is. And and that is something that that means something to me watching it that he is he is Andrew is supplicating himself for this thing that is that is fake that is fake, and it is he's a vessel for it, Simmons.

Frances Hounsom:

Totally that. And he he never like, his costume never changes. His look never changes. He's always the same. It's totally reliant on performance, and that's what's so amazing.

Pete Wright:

Well, and contrasted to Paul Reiser, right, to Andrew's dad who Paul Reiser, the consummate human being.

Frances Hounsom:

Yeah.

Pete Wright:

Right? He's just so normal.

Frances Hounsom:

Oh, lovely. So normal. If you wanna sit next to him in a movie theater and share popcorn, I'd I'd happily do that. He just a lovely man.

Andy Nelson:

With raisinets in it. Yeah.

Frances Hounsom:

Oh, god. With raisinets. Yep. Exactly that, Dan. I donate the raisinets.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. I mean, that's a bit and that's the that's the contrast. Right? Is that Andrew has shunned his own father who is clearly made of human materials for this idol in Fletcher. They they play that contrasting role, I think, incredibly well.

Frances Hounsom:

So well. So well. It's I mean, when he uses that at the beginning when Fletcher says, like, your mother left you as a baby and so, oh, wow. That is and you they're having a real kind of heart to heart conversation. And it's how did you get, like, what does your dad do?

Frances Hounsom:

What does your mom do? He's like, oh, it's nice. He's trying to build a bridge. He was trying to warm up to him and show a bit of personality. I don't it's something like that.

Frances Hounsom:

And then suddenly, he throws it back in his face, and I thought, oh, that is a low blow.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. Right. It does make you wonder, like, how far does he go? Like, has he done that with all of these students? Does he has he had these private conversations before they've really seen him turn on them to actually use it against them perpetually.

Andy Nelson:

Like, perhaps, though, the one guy who said that he ended up being flat but really wasn't, perhaps he had talked to him about his struggles with with eating or whatever it was because he sure, you know, blows that in his face as he's having those conversations with him. And it just

Frances Hounsom:

on the floor. There's not a Mars bar down there. He says that. I think that's one of the lines. Yeah.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. Right. Right. And it makes you wonder, like, when when we get to the point in the film where he learns, Fletcher learns about the student who had killed himself, And, and then that turns into this whole lawsuit or or push to get Fletcher out of the school. It does make you wonder, like, what was the journey for that kid?

Andy Nelson:

I mean, it he had sent him a a CD of him playing his music, you know, signed to him and everything. So perhaps there was still that connection, but also, clearly, that person was also broken. And it's just

Frances Hounsom:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's a nice punctuation, I think, when that happens when it comes in. It it kinda shows that Fletcher has a side. It it shows he was emotional that day.

Frances Hounsom:

He was quiet. That's when he did that. But little did he know the guy died because of kinda because of him. It seemed needed some therapy. So, yeah, that was tough.

Frances Hounsom:

A tough scene.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. It's just it's it's very difficult. And it it it does play for an interesting shift in the film where then it gets to the point where Andrew is just like, well, I I don't wanna like, you could see it in that conversation between his dad and the, I don't know, like the attorney for the school. Yeah. Whatever she is.

Andy Nelson:

In that conversation, you could see that he still saw Fletcher as this idol, this person that was getting him somewhere. Like, it it's like he felt it, but it's still he was still broken by that. And that's what's so interesting because he doesn't wanna do that, but he ends up just like, what do what do you want me to say?

Frances Hounsom:

And we see him in the jazz bar, and and he still would like, no. No. No. But he still trusts him. He still has that trust in him to go, actually, yeah, I'll come and do it.

Frances Hounsom:

Not even thinking for a second that this guy would have known it was him and he'll just turn on him. He just he still had that trusting, like, relationship with him.

Andy Nelson:

Right. Who even lied to him about the fact that I was probably some student who went to who was in his class, like, knowing that it was him. It's diabolical.

Frances Hounsom:

It is.

Pete Wright:

That's gaslighting. Right? That's where we are. Like, the movie is just them trying to outgaslight one another.

Frances Hounsom:

Absolutely. Second to get scared at. At the end.

Pete Wright:

Just just

Andy Nelson:

just being

Frances Hounsom:

a muscle of gaslighting. It was exactly that in the end. Yeah.

Pete Wright:

I so pivoting just a little bit away from this movie directly, where do you stand on Damien Chazelle's other works? He sorta came out of, he he came out of, I'll I'll say, relative nowhere with this movie. Right?

Frances Hounsom:

Yes.

Pete Wright:

He had he had written, grand piano, in that era kind of before this came out, which was awesome. Totally worth seeing. Anybody who hasn't seen it, really fun. Although, sadly, it does not make the 6 star rating on IMDB. Still worth seeing.

Pete Wright:

But then he comes out with these other movies, La La Land and First Man and Babylon, most recently. Where do you stand on the rest of his catalog? Does he live up to his whiplash roots?

Frances Hounsom:

I am a huge sort of Chazelle fan. I'm a very big fan. It's a really tricky one because then you go from this kind of really kinetically punctuated film that goes along with the percussion of drums, then you go into La La Land, which is very glowy, very curvy, very movie, very beautiful. You have the blue Disney skies, everything, like, makes everybody wanna go to LA. I did love La La Land, but that's because I'm an old time Hollywood fan.

Frances Hounsom:

I'd like to think that that's what Hollywood's like, wouldn't that be? I know it's not. It's probably a bit more like Babylon, but, yeah. Yeah. It's, I love that, and I I love the kind of curvature into that.

Frances Hounsom:

Then I think the my only thing is with Whiplash, she had, I think, 3,300,000 to do that film at the time, and they shot it in 19 days. Can we just have a moment? Like, 19 days, they shot that film, and I think they were doing 18 hour days. The the crew must have been exhausted, but it was all because he had a month to edit because he wanted to get it into Sundance and it was Miles Teller's availability, I think. So to shoot that is phenomenal.

Frances Hounsom:

So he goes from that kind of lowish budget, and then he just gets given 1,000,000, which is amazing and incredible and and everybody deserves that. But I think perhaps sometimes a little bit of a downfall because you you don't need all of that money and all of that equipment and all of that presence and stuff or lenses and cameras and all that to make an incredible film. I think, again, Steven Soderbergh, who I've worked with often is a is a true hero of that. You don't need 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of pounds and all these incredible things to make an amazing movie. It's it's sometimes you're giving too much, and that is a lot of people's downfall, I think, in this industry.

Frances Hounsom:

They include a bit power gone mad. But Babylon, again, stunning film, amazing film, about 3 films in 1, which is I would have loved the the the the Tobey Maguire bit. That went a bit crazy for me at that point. I thought, no, you've lost me now. But, again, that was a whole another film.

Frances Hounsom:

I think, where is this magical cave in Los Angeles where all of this happens? I thought, really,

Andy Nelson:

I would

Frances Hounsom:

love to see. It's quite remarkable. So I'm still a fan, but I think I'd love him to go back to his roots of just a nice dramatic just a nice double act, which is basically is with a few extras in the background. It's, supporting artists. Sorry.

Frances Hounsom:

Yeah. It's it's that, but he is a phenomenal writer, and I can't wait to see what he comes out with next. I'm really excited for his next venture.

Pete Wright:

He he did quickly achieve for me the rank of if his name's on it, I'll go see it.

Frances Hounsom:

Yes.

Pete Wright:

Right? That

Frances Hounsom:

Absolutely. Very quickly. Pretty quickly. Whiplash, I think, was was produced by Bloomhouse Productions, which isn't a no Whiplash is not one of their type of films. They're horrified.

Andy Nelson:

Right. Right. Right.

Frances Hounsom:

And I'm so it was quite I think it was Cooper Samuelson perhaps who worked there. He was very supportive of Giselle and gave them the money for the short and said, right, let's make it, which is huge for them because he was a writer before and, like, a just a a jobbing writer who did a lot of things for them and horror things and adapted some scripts. But this was huge and huge for them as well, I think, as a company. I wish they did more of it.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. It's definitely a shift from what you normally see. I mean, although, I guess you could say, well, there is a little bit of a horror element in this as you look at at Fletcher's character. But,

Frances Hounsom:

Very true.

Andy Nelson:

But no. It's but it's just it's fascinating to watch. And I it's it's interesting because JK Simmons gets talked about so much of this. I mean, his performance as Fletcher is just phenomenal. Obviously, won an Oscar for his role and everything.

Andy Nelson:

But Miles Teller, I think there's this there's this level to him as a performer that gets buried because so much of the conversation becomes about Simmons because he is so big. But I think Teller also is bringing a lot to this film. And we've talked about him a little bit with some of, like, the the way that he is portraying the character and everything. But I think there's there's a lot that's going on with him aside from just performing the drums, like, actually being there performing. Like, it he's bringing a lot to this character, and I I find him an incredibly compelling protagonist for our story as we follow him on this journey to be the

Frances Hounsom:

Absolutely. The intensity that he brings, it's almost, I mean, like, almost almost on par with a Heath Ledger Joker character. I think if he carried on doing this role for too long, it would probably send him a little bit insane. That's probably why 19 days was kinda good because it wasn't too long a process. But his intensity on those drums and playing with drums is not easy.

Frances Hounsom:

And I know that Chazelle took his drum kit round to tell his house and made him learn. He was like, you need to learn obviously a lot of the hand, the faster shots and everything like that is a real skilled double, I'm sure coming in there. But a lot of it, he did, and he was remarkable. He really did throw himself into the role of Niemann, and he's just intensity It's, like, mind blowing. He's a very, very good actor.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. Chazelle says over 90% of the drums in the movie are Teller. Really? That's Incredible. That's incredible.

Frances Hounsom:

That's some going. That's not easy.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. Right. Right. Right.

Pete Wright:

I love that you you brought up, you know, Joker, and you've already dot dropped, Jim Carrey. Like, look at what Andy Kaufman did to Jim Carrey. Right? Like, that took him out of Hollywood for a while talking about somebody who loses himself in the intensity of the role.

Frances Hounsom:

And you still have that when I met Jim for the first time, I still have that anxiety that I thought, oh my god. He's gonna be horrid. I've seen all the Andy Kaufman stuff. He's gonna be just as crazy, but I think he really worked on himself when he took himself out of Hollywood. And he's just most kindest, wonderful, spiritual human now.

Frances Hounsom:

He really has come back around. It's yeah. So it's crazy how a role can take over your life.

Andy Nelson:

Truly. Truly. Yeah. Great Yeah. Movie.

Andy Nelson:

Oh my goodness. Such a fantastic film. I mean, what a conversation talking with you about it. Any last points? Any last things you wanted to bring up about it?

Andy Nelson:

I I know you have, like, countless sticky notes. I just wanted to give

Pete Wright:

you a chance to make sure

Andy Nelson:

which ones did you miss?

Frances Hounsom:

Okay. I have a really, really good one, which is a great fun fact, which I found out whilst, doing a bit of research. And lenses they shot on, Angenieux lenses, was they were the lens that was used on the Apollo 11 camera that shot Neil Armstrong landing on the moon. Now in my eyes, yes, landed on the moon. This happened.

Frances Hounsom:

America, you have the credit for this. And that camera is the camera is still up there. So if anybody goes to the moon, which apparently I've researched after watching fly me to the moon recently, and it's I was like, why has nobody been back? But it's 2 weeks He left an awesome camera. Yeah.

Frances Hounsom:

Proper. You'll only get that ultra new lens, which is really expensive, and sell it to make some proceeds for the moon landing. Please, somebody go back. Wow. But that was the lenses used on that camera, and he used that to shoot with bash.

Frances Hounsom:

And I think there's so many other films. I have got notes of the films that have been shot on those lenses as well, but I won't bore you with that.

Andy Nelson:

I wonder if First Man was. If any of his films were, that would be the one that would make sense.

Frances Hounsom:

I know La La Land wasn't, but I wonder

Pete Wright:

if First

Frances Hounsom:

Man was yeah. Yeah. Because that would be the one, the space film. Interesting.

Pete Wright:

That it makes sense that La La Land wasn't because it was so I mean, it was much more crisp than either First Man or Whiplash. Like, it was it was much more sort of plastic Hollywood.

Frances Hounsom:

And it was shot on film, La La Land. I didn't know it was shot on film until I mean, rightly so. It's just one of those films that should be, but it was shot on film whereas Whiplash was not. I think speed speed is a thing with whiplash that they needed.

Pete Wright:

19 days.

Frances Hounsom:

19 days. Yep. Right. Gotta get through it.

Andy Nelson:

And and with all that with all that drumming and everything, you can't just, like, be wasting film as they're going, oh, no. We didn't get it on that one. Because, I mean, you obviously want want it to be looking good too aside from Absolutely. Sounding good and everything. Yeah.

Frances Hounsom:

And another reason I think for those lenses was all those whip pans, loads of quick whip pans, and those lens quite easy to quickly focus. They're a they're a quick focus lens. So it's it worked very well for that.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. Right. Right.

Frances Hounsom:

That's great.

Andy Nelson:

Yeah. I mean, it's just it's a fantastic film. Just a a real amazing, piece of sin of of cinema that that, Chazelle crafted here.

Frances Hounsom:

Absolutely.

Andy Nelson:

Frances, thank you so much for coming and talking with us about it. It's been a thrill.

Frances Hounsom:

Thank you and me. Thank you, Kai. I love this. Can we do this again sometimes? It's brilliant.

Pete Wright:

Anytime. Absolutely.

Frances Hounsom:

We can talk about the Joker next time. I don't know. Something something that's coming out soon, isn't it?

Pete Wright:

Maybe. Yeah. Maybe we do a, we do a conversation on a double feature, Joker and Faliade.

Andy Nelson:

Oh. Yeah. There you go.

Pete Wright:

There you go. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Alright.

Andy Nelson:

And there's plenty of plenty of hair and makeup to talk about with us

Pete Wright:

as well. Yes. Yes. Next time,

Frances Hounsom:

it would be great to talk about a film where I could talk about hair and makeup. That wouldn't Absolutely.

Pete Wright:

Absolutely. Awesome. Thank you, Francis.

Andy Nelson:

Oh, man. Frances, do you have any places online that, that you send people, like socials? Or

Frances Hounsom:

Oh, god. Just my probably Instagram is the old classic. I'm at Fran_ makeup_ designer or just my name. Just I'm the only one in the world with my name, so I'm quite easy to find, unfortunately.

Andy Nelson:

Unfortunately. Well, we'll make sure the loop's in the show notes so people can just click on it, and then they won't have to worry. But it has been such a joy. Yeah. Such a joy having you here.

Frances Hounsom:

Thank you.

Andy Nelson:

We really appreciate it.

Frances Hounsom:

So honored to be chatting to you both today. It's been so wonderful. Thank you.

Andy Nelson:

Absolutely. Well, we'll have those links in the show notes. Again, we certainly appreciate you joining us here today. For everyone else out there, we hope you like the show and certainly hope you like the movie like we do here on movies we like. Movies we like is a part of the True Story FM Entertainment Podcast Network and the Next Reel family of film podcasts.

Andy Nelson:

The music is chomp clap by out of flux. Find the show at true story dot f m and follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, threads, and letterboxed at the next real. Learn Learn about becoming a member at the nextreel.com/membership. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, we always appreciate it if you drop one in there for us. See you next time.