Overcoming AI Resistance in Business Leadership and Strategy

Business leaders face overwhelming uncertainty about AI implementation, with executives privately admitting "I don't know what I'm doing" despite mandates from the top. The AI resistance stems from competing priorities, limited time, and the sheer volume of change overwhelming even experienced leaders. Rather than seeking confidence through knowing, successful leaders build confidence through curiosity and learning. The Matthew Effect shows that early AI adopters gain compounding advantages, while those who wait fall further behind. Key strategies include finding your "coalition of the willing" rather than convincing skeptics, treating AI as a service to existing strategy rather than the strategy itself, and embracing small experiments to build capabilities through commitment and courage.

Highlights
- Build confidence through curiosity rather than traditional knowing-based leadership
- Find your coalition of the willing instead of wasting energy on convincing skeptics
- Treat AI as service to strategy rather than making AI the strategy itself
- Early adopters gain compounding advantages through the Matthew Effect
- Create organizations that reward questions rather than demanding answers

Important Concepts and Frameworks
- Matthew Effect in AI — Early advantages compound for AI adopters while others fall behind
  - Link: https://medium.com/@geopertea/the-ai-matthew-effect-pay-to-play-intelligence-supercharges-inequality-128bb4a36430

- Navigating the Jagged Technology Frontier — BCG/Harvard study showing AI shifts performance one standard deviation
  - Link: https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%20Files/24-013_d9b45b68-9e74-42d6-a1c6-c72fb70c7282.pdf

- Confidence Framework — Dan Sullivan's commitment-courage-capabilities-confidence cycle
  - Link: https://www.couragetoanswer.com/blog/blog-post-title-four-s9s8j

- Trust Triangle — Capability, consistency, and selflessness as foundations of trust
  - Link: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/trust-triangle-framework-leadership-excellence-dr-nik-eberl-lj5ff/

- Coalition of the Willing — Organizational change driven by pulling rather than pushing

Tools & Resources Mentioned
- Claude 4.5 — AI assistant with new planning capabilities
- Codex — OpenAI's code generation system
- Wall Street Journal — Source for AI Matthew Effect article
- Fortune — Article on executive AI uncertainty by Heather Conklin

Calls to Action
1. Find 2-3 people in your organization to form a learning team around AI
2. Schedule 2 hours per week dedicated to AI experimentation and learning
3. Identify one small process where AI could create immediate value
4. Stop trying to convince skeptics and focus on your coalition of the willing
5. Commit to one AI experiment this week, regardless of outcome

Key Quotes
- "Your confidence now needs to come from curiosity" — Mark Redgrave
- "Create an organization that rewards questions, not answers" — Mark Redgrave
- "AI is in service of your strategy, not the strategy itself" — Mark Redgrave
- "Find your coalition of the willing and go hard" — Mark Redgrave

Chapters
00:27 — Welcome to AI Resistance and Business Uncertainty
01:29 — What Leaders Are Actually Seeing in AI Implementation
04:25 — The Matthew Effect: Early Adopters Gain Compounding Advantages
07:22 — Building Confidence Through Curiosity Instead of Knowing
13:58 — Finding Your Coalition of the Willing
17:27 — AI as Service to Strategy, Not Strategy Itself
20:02 — Trust Challenges in Rapidly Changing Environments
25:07 — Personal Resistance and Overcoming Information Overload
31:57 — Leadership Mindset Shifts for AI Adoption
37:46 — From Systems of Engagement to Systems of Action
39:18 — Practical Steps to Start Your AI Journey
41:12 — Wrap-Up: Commitment, Courage and Capabilities

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Meet the Crew

Mike Richardson – Agility, Peer Power & Collective Intelligence
Website: https://mikerichardson.live/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/agilityexpertmikerichardson/

Ryan Niemann – Software CEO & Board Operator
Website: https://bob3.pro/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanniemann/

Mark Redgrave – Agility, People and Performance
Website: https://www.shift-transform.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mredgrave/

Tom Adams – Executive Coach, Advisor & Trail Blazer
Website: https://tomadams.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomadamscoach/

Creators and Guests

Host

Mark Redgrave

Agility, People and Performance

Host

Ryan Niemann

Software CEO & Board Operator

Host

Tom Adams

Executive Coach, Strategic Advisor & Thought Partner

What is Prompt and Circumstance?

It’s human-friendly banter about code, culture, and CEO reality checks—served up by Mike Richardson, Ryan Niemann, Mark Redgrave, and Tom Adams. No jargon. No hype. Just real talk from four guys who’ve seen it all, and aren’t afraid to say what everyone’s thinking.

Episode 6 - Overcoming AI Resistance in Business Leadership and Strategy
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[00:00:27] Tom Adams: Hey, our chairs are pulled up. We're ready to dig in. welcome back to, uh, prompt and Circumstance. We're glad you're here. Um, in our previous episode, we celebrated the AI steak and the sizzle today is all about the stuck and the suck. Um, this

[00:00:45] Mark Redgrave: All right.

Came to the,

[00:00:46] Tom Adams: wasn't that good.

[00:00:47] Mark Redgrave: came to the, right place.

Love it.

[00:00:49] Tom Adams: I, know, I, I, I had to bring, I had to bring it.

to start.

This isn't what's wrong with ai. It's what's real and happening in business today about All things ai confusion, competing priorities, limited time and more. It's about the AI resistance. That's where we're going today. So we're gonna dig into that reality and talk about what's actually in the way and what's going on in terms of what we see.

And, you know, frankly, we try and see. As best we can with the conversations we have, and so joining me today are two of my three regular co-hosts, the effervescent Mark Redgrave in the house.

[00:01:29] Mark Redgrave: Morning, morning.

[00:01:30] Tom Adams: And the, uh, bull

to Ryan Neiman also with us today.

Uh, I know I

[00:01:36] Ryan Niemann_1: sounds good. Thanks,

[00:01:36] Tom Adams: I'm bringing the words today. The reclusive, Mike Richardson is otherwise engaged in changing the world.

Mike Richardson and reclusive are very interchangeable words, as you might, might already expect. So,

[00:01:50] Mark Redgrave: I got a message from Mike that he's, he's still prepared to receive compliments today, even though he is not here.

So he did, he did tell me that.

[00:01:57] Tom Adams: Well, that's why I said reclusive.

[00:01:59] Ryan Niemann_1: to say the words buggy, whip. He said, as long as you

say

[00:02:01] Mark Redgrave: Yeah.

[00:02:02] Ryan Niemann_1: for

[00:02:02] Mark Redgrave: Good. So we got Mike covered. That's

good.

[00:02:04] Tom Adams: and I'm Tom Adams, your valuable host for today's discussion. How do you like that? Yes. So before we dive into the focus of the conversation, what have you guys seen this week? What's, uh, what's, uh, what are you seeing in the world of ai? Uh, all things interesting on your plate that have shown up to you.

[00:02:24] Ryan Niemann_1: go

[00:02:24] Mark Redgrave: yeah, I spent the week in sunny Sydney, Australia this week, Tom. So, um, got back a couple of days. Ago, uh, they're just coming into summer, so actually beautiful. I, I go to Sydney like, uh, many times every year. But it was beautiful. those of you who haven't managed to get to Australia and to Sydney, fantastic place. so I had a great week there. So a couple of really interesting things. , My client is in the marketing and advertising space, very fast growing business. Clearly AI is absolutely the center of attention for them. , A couple of really interesting things, which I think will inform the conversation that I kind of. It was very prevalent this week. The first is, you know, like, like clients, so brands you know that are advertising and spending a lot of money. It's like they want this right, and they want this being, this being AI because they want efficiencies because almost every client has some sort of constraint around. Spend.

they've got so much to do. They've got so much ambition. They're always like a little bit constrained by, you know, we've only got this much money to do this campaign to this audience. And I think they, you know, the clients are leaning heavily into like, bring me these efficiencies.

'cause then we'll get more for what we do. , Which I think, you know, is a, like, obviously very important driving force in that industry. , And the second thing is, you know, like very strong feeling this week like. We don't know it all, but new leaders are gonna be made now. Yeah. Like new, Like

like, so, so if you, if you are a, and I think this is true of any industry,

[00:03:51] Tom Adams: Yep.

[00:03:51] Mark Redgrave: but like this is an opportunity for you to leapfrog if you want it. Right, because, because like in, in a situation where no one knows, like no one's an expert. And I do believe that, I mean there's, you know, there's some guys who've been to Stanford and stuff, which is great, but like generally no one's an expert. This is an opportunity for you to grab the bull and go. So, um, so yeah, I had a great week and um, I woke up at 3:00 AM so

excellent.

[00:04:17] Tom Adams: beautiful, beautiful. Ryan, what, uh, what are you seeing? What's, uh, what's crossing your plate this week of interest?

[00:04:25] Ryan Niemann_1: I have a topic of interest?

that I think builds on what Mark just mentioned. Um, so I was preparing for the week and I think it was late Sunday night, I got an an alert that there's a Wall Street Journal article, uh, and uh, it was specifically called the AI specific Matthew Effect. And I was like, well that's kind of interesting.

now some researchers, uh, believe that AI might, uh, increase. productivity across a, a broad, uh, population of employees, let's say, um, and reduce those performance inequalities between star players and and average players. And the longest time, like literally two years, I've been talking about a Boston consulting group.

Harvard Business School study. It's called Navigating the Jagged Technology Frontier. And that was like a study of three different groups, a hundred consultants each and in essence, no ai, AI and ai. With coaching and the AI shifted the performance of those consultants, one standard deviation to the right.

Then with a little bit more coaching about ai, it was even a little bit better in

performance. And I thought, yeah, that's what we're gonna see. You know, and I've been talking about that, that, that paper for a couple, couple years now. Uh, I'll use it as kind of a, an example of a a, a good formal study, uh, from some notable groups, uh, about what to expect, uh, in, in releasing ai.

Well, haven't seen it. Right. I, I just think empirically I would, I was just like, you know, I'm just not, I'm not seeing that happen. And we've talked on this podcast about, you know, things like awareness or fbu, fear of messing up or we've talked about just that mindset shift this AI specific Matthew Effect is written by Matthew Call it was, it was, it's a, it's a article in the Wall Street Journal on, on Monday I did a little research on Matthew.

He's a Texas a and m professor, and he speaks about this from a human. Capital management perspective. I thought, oh, he, he named it after himself. And no, actually the Matthew Effect is from 1968. how researchers that are more notable seem to gain more early advantage in the studies and how they continue to accelerate quicker.

So it has biblical meaning, uh, to the,

uh,

[00:06:43] Tom Adams: Hmm.

[00:06:43] Ryan Niemann_1: book of Matthew about those that have, and those that

have continued to gain and accelerate quicker. so people who already have added advantages. Like AI tend to gain more advantages over time while those who are less resourced have a harder time catching up.

And I was like,

[00:07:00] Tom Adams: Hmm.

[00:07:01] Ryan Niemann_1: that's pretty good. call

[00:07:03] Tom Adams: Yeah.

[00:07:04] Ryan Niemann_1: uh, Matthew, call, uh,

uh, you know, his, his, uh, position on that. I thought that was, uh, uh, uh, very well done. And I think kind of empirically what we're seeing and leans into what. Mark was saying, you know, getting started now gives you that, that early advantage and staying resilient on it.

It's gonna give you some advantages over time.

[00:07:22] Tom Adams: Yeah. That's fabulous. Uh, love, love that concept because it, it really speaks to, I, I think what we're gonna speak about today, but also what we're seeing, which is. early adopters tend to be able to ride a wave differently than late adopters, right? Because by the time the new stuff is flowing, like you're, you're already comfortable with the process and what's going on. I mean, my, my own experience of that this week I, this, I wasn't gonna talk about this, but, like, uh, I, as we talk about, I just build stuff in the background just for fun. I don't know how to build software, but I'm building it and I was, I've had a really busy month.

[00:08:00] Ryan Niemann_1: And,

and for everybody on the podcast, Tom does not know code.

[00:08:06] Tom Adams: Right, Right, Thank you for taking Mike's role there. But like, I, I've been away for 20, 22 days from my desk. I've been traveling when I came back I, know there was this one thing that I knew I had to do with that and I loaded up the software. And, uh, there's all brand new code.

I mean, uh, Claude came out with some new, um, code.

They came out with 4.5 and, and Codex from, uh, open eyes come out and there's new stuff happening. because I've been playing with it so long, it didn't freak me out. Like. this cool new thing called plan in there. So I just type in, oh, this is what, there's this button that says, do you wanna plan?

And I go plan. And I say, this is what I want to add to this piece of software. And it writes out the plan, and I get to work with the plan before I had to en engage the agent to fix the thing. But the, the point that aligns with what you were saying, which is I didn't, I didn't go into panic mode, like, oh crap, there's this plan button.

Like, I already kind of knew how to ride the wave and now I'm just adjusting to the conditions. And I think that's, that's really cool in terms of what you said there. So,

[00:09:14] Mark Redgrave: Yeah, there's,

[00:09:15] Ryan Niemann_1: Tom.

[00:09:16] Mark Redgrave: there's, so something you just said a second ago that's interesting, which is like. When prompts become buttons, like, I like that. Right? Like there's a, there's a button now that's like the plan and

it's like, I assume it's triggering some sort of prompt in the background.

Right. But it's like, but it's like, that's good. Yeah.

When

prompts,

how do prompts become buttons? 'cause, but people love buttons.

People press buttons. Right. So

that's, that's like, that's, that's great. I need to check that out.

[00:09:44] Tom Adams: Yeah.

[00:09:45] Ryan Niemann_1: I can amplify what Tom was talking about because for the longest time I would actually type, do not change the code and then say, I.

want to discuss

this

[00:09:54] Tom Adams: Yeah. I.

[00:09:55] Ryan Niemann_1: with you. And then now there's just a, you know, push the button.

We'll, we'll be in planning

mode,

[00:10:00] Tom Adams: Yes.

[00:10:00] Ryan Niemann_1: back and forth and, and come up with a structured approach to

make changes.

So exactly

[00:10:05] Tom Adams: brilliant because I, 'cause I, I was able to read the plan, whereas like literally a month ago I would say, I want this to happen. I'd go do it. And I'd

[00:10:12] Mark Redgrave: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:13] Tom Adams: a second. I wanted to make sure we were clear on it anyways. Um, that wasn't my, my biggest thing. But, uh, I actually sent it to you guys in our, in our chat yesterday.

But I read something from Fortune, um, yesterday. It showed up in my newsfeed from, um, an article by Heather Conklin. And, um, this is what caught my attention. It was a headline that said what nobody's saying out loud. I keep hearing the same pattern. In conversations with executives, they have AI mandates from the top with no clarity on how to get their people ready.

On top of everything else they're already managing, and there's this thing they'll only say in private. I don't know what I'm doing. Nobody does. And I screenshotted that and I sent it to you guys and said, this is what we have to talk about today. Because I, I, I think it's the unstated message, like I said at the start, like, we're, we're, we're all excited about this, but the more I have conversations and I know we all have people we talk to, and I don't want anybody who's listening to us to, to say we're talking about them.

'cause we're not talking about you we're talking about the consolidated. Group of people we have ongoing conversations about, but that's what I'm hearing. I don't know what I'm doing with this, and frankly, I don't think any of us do. Do we.

[00:11:31] Ryan Niemann_1: Not entirely.

No.

[00:11:33] Mark Redgrave: Thanks. Thanks. for coming everyone. Thanks for coming. We're done here.

That's it.

[00:11:39] Ryan Niemann_1: I, no, I think, uh, one of the

topics I've heard is that, not everybody knows everything. Everybody has a, a bit different perspective, and a bit different specialization in, in the way that they're approaching it, collectively, even us on this podcast. And we are in tune and challenging ourselves to be on the, on the forefront and, and read as much as we can.

I, I feel like I'm, I'm learning something new every day.

[00:12:07] Tom Adams: Oh

[00:12:07] Mark Redgrave: I think, so if we go back to leadership principles 1 0 1, right? We're all like, like quite experienced coaches and CEO whisperers and stuff. And it's like, so for the, for, for seasoned, uh, leaders, seasoned subject matter experts, senior leaders, right? Confidence comes from knowing. that's

it.

That that's how this works. Right? And, and you know, now then we, we, when we are talking to, you know, to leaders, we, for years we've been teaching, sharing, you know, the importance of vulnerability, right? And the importance of like, hey, you don't need to know the answers. And, and, and this

was in the previous paradigm, right? But now, now we're in a paradigm where it's like. Nobody knows the answer.

So I, I, I kind of, I play with this saying, which is like, you know, where previously, like your confidence came from knowing, I'm like, your confidence now needs to come from curiosity,

right? You, you can't, you cannot get confidence through knowing. You

need confident, you need to build confidence through curiosity. And, and this, this is quite a, this is, this is a shift for leaders full stop, right? We have been teaching it for 15 years and it's

like, and, and now it feels like we're in,

uh, we're in like double down.

[00:13:25] Ryan Niemann_1: Yeah,

double down.

[00:13:26] Tom Adams: Yeah.

[00:13:26] Ryan Niemann_1: I'd add to that not only curiosity, but

uh, a sense of resilience. and I've seen so many times where somebody will try something, it didn't. Come out the way they expected, and then they just kind of stop. , This is one thing that you want to double down on and continue to challenge yourself to continue to learn and experiment.

continue to prove out the value. Continue to, , challenge yourself , on your learning curve around this topic, I think is absolutely, IM, IM imperative right

now.

[00:13:58] Mark Redgrave: Yep.

[00:13:58] Tom Adams: Yeah, so in that, um, in, in that, I, guess the question that keeps coming up for me is where are the stuck places or where is this inner resistance? Because A, we don't know, but I, I think sometimes to give voice to what we are hearing in our conversations. Is helpful to those who, uh, just have this general uncertainty about it.

And I think it's sometimes it's helpful to sort of dig beneath the surface and go, well, I, I see this and I hear this. So, uh, for example, uh, in a conversation that I've had in the last week, uh, something that sort of emerged for me. AI is this thing that we know we need to do, but I'm so busy right now with my normal life that I don't even have the capacity to be curious or, um, or to try stuff like, like the, just the sheer volume of stuff coming at people is one piece.

And, and, um, and part of, part of that for me is recognizing there's a whole bunch of people who. Uh, don't know what to do. A because they don't even have the time to explore. Uh, we are, we're consciously exploring here, but there's a lot of people I'm talking to who are going, uh, uh, uh, you know, and, and like I said, they're using, they're, they're using a simple chat bot for conversation, but behind the scenes, the kind of stuff we've talked about historically, you know, in our show, the last five episodes is like, try stuff, try stuff.

And they're going, I, I can't, I can't do that. Like, I just don't have the capacity.

Are you seeing any of that? Or what else are you seeing?

[00:15:32] Ryan Niemann_1: I, I definitely am seeing that. And, and the thing that comes to mind is, , make it a team sport. So find those around your organization, find those around your and start to share with each other what you're seeing on a, in a purposeful

way. Like

[00:15:49] Tom Adams: Hmm.

[00:15:49] Ryan Niemann_1: mentioned, you know, we have a, a, a chat, uh, that is amongst

us to

share

[00:15:54] Tom Adams: Yep.

[00:15:55] Ryan Niemann_1: as we're going along in this journey.

And I think finding a way to be purposeful in the way that you're sharing your own learnings with others. having them share with you the way that they're working differently, that they're finding sources of inspiration is absolutely critical.

So,

[00:16:15] Mark Redgrave: Yeah.

[00:16:16] Ryan Niemann_1: is make it a team

sport.

[00:16:17] Mark Redgrave: Yeah. So build building on that, Ryan. Love that. And I think we mentioned this in a previous, or I mentioned this in a previous episode, I'm gonna repeat it right,

like, the last 10 years of doing big transformation programs at large companies, people spend an awful lot of time trying to convince nonbelievers to believe.

I don't think that is the right thing to do. Right. I look for coalition of the willing. So when you go, when you Ryan say, team sport, I go coalition of the winning. Willing. So coalition of the willing, find the people that are on the bus, right. Go hard. Yeah. And, and like, because change in organizations comes from uh, them pulling change through, not you pushing

change through.

[00:17:03] Ryan Niemann_1: That's a

[00:17:03] Mark Redgrave: So.

[00:17:04] Tom Adams: good

[00:17:04] Mark Redgrave: So, so I kind of, I, I find that, and, you know, um, I think an awful lot of energy is wasted trying to convince people something in organizations, right? Don't find your, find your tribe, find the coalition of the willing and go for it, man, and let everyone look and go. That's cool

like that.

Like, I wanna be part of that.

[00:17:27] Ryan Niemann_1: Yeah.

[00:17:27] Tom Adams: I love that.

[00:17:28] Ryan Niemann_1: you, you, you, as I reflect over the last, uh, years or longer, there was a sense of convincing.

[00:17:38] Tom Adams: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:40] Ryan Niemann_1: I, I just don't have time for that

anymore. I'm only looking for those that are in the coalition of the willing. I like that. And are already leaning in and looking for how do we now amplify?

How do we get some direction and coordination and prove the value? And that's an important, surround yourself with those that are thinking the same way.

[00:18:04] Tom Adams: Yeah. Yeah.

The, the other piece there that, that strikes me is there's, there's this other language I've heard out there, which is somewhat a, a sense of resistance, and so they. You know, they bring the MIT study to the surface, which is 95% of these initiatives never work. And, you know, and, and, uh, we've, we've agreed that, yeah.

Or, or whatever that is. But the other thing I find there is, there's also, and it speaks to your point mark, which is, um, when you already have a preconceived notion, of something that. That doesn't fully, you don't fully buy it. You look for all of the evidence to support your belief about it,

[00:18:45] Mark Redgrave: Yeah.

[00:18:46] Tom Adams: then you amplify that.

So it's not helpful in a community if you're not finding the willing people, like if you're really

[00:18:53] Mark Redgrave: Yeah.

[00:18:54] Tom Adams: people.

[00:18:54] Ryan Niemann_1: Tom, you, you hit my, my trigger button, which is the MIT

study.

[00:18:59] Tom Adams: Yep.

[00:18:59] Ryan Niemann_1: I heard it so many times that I decided to

dive in

on that

[00:19:04] Tom Adams: Yeah.

[00:19:05] Ryan Niemann_1: uh, and really understand it.

then I got to the end and section eight, did 52 structured interviews, 52 structured interviews. not, it is not a MIT high rigor.

Study

it.

[00:19:24] Tom Adams: Right,

[00:19:24] Ryan Niemann_1: empirical. But, but people will quote

that, uh, as

[00:19:28] Tom Adams: right.

[00:19:28] Ryan Niemann_1: some large global multi-industry multidisciplinary, thousands and thousands of, of touch points research. Now, I'm not discounting that it's not empirical or not discounting that we shouldn't be, you know, watchful of what's going on, but it, it's that that doesn't, should not stop you from moving forward.

Uh, it doesn't mean are going to fail all the time. It's gonna get better and better and take into account the, the breadth or the limited breadth of that particular

study.

[00:19:59] Tom Adams: Right.

[00:19:59] Mark Redgrave: so let's, So,

let's build,

[00:20:00] Ryan Niemann_1: eight. Go go to

[00:20:01] Mark Redgrave: so

[00:20:02] Ryan Niemann_1: eight.

[00:20:02] Mark Redgrave: let's build

on, on that though, on those two ideas, right? So, so people will, you know, get statistics to reinforce their worldview. That's cool.

Whatever. Okay. Now if you go back to the point we said earlier, which is like right. Leaders, um, the confidence can't come from knowing. It has to come from curiosity and learning. Right? So now just build on that again, and you say, so. Like, like leadership in the era of AI is less about knowing and more about learning. So that, that's like, so, so, so it's like we have to commit to learning. So if you are a leader and you're going, ah, you know, like I have to know the outcome. I have to be sure that, you know, like what we do is going to work. Okay. You're gonna sit on the start line with your engine running. Ain't gonna go nowhere. Like as a leader, what you've gotta do is you've just got to change your mindset

to like no one knows, right?

But the thing that always drives me is we do know where this goes, right?

That nowhere, nobody on the planet is looking at this and going, this is a fad. We won't be talking about this in 12 months. No one's doing that.

So if you, if you subscribe to the view that's like. We like this is a thing. Then it's like you have to get comfortable with learning, not knowing.

[00:21:34] Tom Adams: Yeah.

[00:21:35] Ryan Niemann_1: I think Mark, building on that, and actually hearkening back

some words from Mike, right? We've seen this before. We've seen this with other technologies across internet, uh, across SaaS, across cloud, across mobility, these technology disruptions, and, and it's not a short project. It's a, it's a journey. one of the things that's unique about AI specifically, and it's different.

Disciplines and variations that it's having a broader, it, broader impact, much more prolific impact, uh, across a number of industries, and it's unfolding faster than we've ever seen any other kind of

technology.

[00:22:14] Mark Redgrave: Hundred percent.

[00:22:15] Tom Adams: Yeah. Yeah. Dan Sullivan, who runs a program called Strategic Coach, has this brilliant concept, um, about, um, uh, about confidence and his, his, his structure for building confidence is really a three, three step process to get there. And the first one is a commitment, right? And Mark, you've talked about this in previous conversations.

You gotta commit to doing something with this. So commitment is the first step, and then the second step he talks about, which I love is courage. which is, if you're gonna commit to building something in this way for your business, then uh, you gotta commit to it. And then secondly, you have to, to be courageous and you have to do stuff that you are not used to doing, that you're uncomfortable.

We talked about that last time. Skunk works and testing, small experiments. Um. But the third stage that I really love is when you have a commitment and you take courage. And courage is always messy and it feels awkward, but when you take courage, you get capabilities. You, you develop these small, tiny capabilities.

And when you got enough capabilities, all of a sudden you get confidence and then you gotta go back and do it again. And to me, that cycles this whole curiosity and learning structure that we have to be in, in this world because. Frankly, by the time you figure out what's happening today, something new is already coming down the pipe that we've gotta address and face.

[00:23:37] Mark Redgrave: Yes. It's a, yeah, I mean, what just went through my head. This could be a little tangential, but it's like, you know,

like. Like trust underpins this stuff, right? What

you've just said, like I use a trust triangle. Everyone has a slightly different version of this, but

my trust triangle has capability, consistency, and selflessness, right? So like, I only trust you, Tom, if I think you're capable, you know what you're doing. Uh, ai, no one knows what they're doing. Okay, problem. Yeah, like, like consistency. So like, do you do what you say you're gonna do when you say you're gonna do it? And selflessness, which is like, which is this concept of like, are you doing it for you or for us,

right?

Those are the tenants of trust. So now, now what you've just said, put that into the trust triangle, right? It's like, it's quick, it's quite challenging, right?

It's like we're supposed to trust, uh, we in a, in a period of great uncertainty. We have to trust each other.

Yeah. When we don't have the capability and the consistency is not there yet.

So two of my three tenants of trust are building.

[00:24:47] Tom Adams: Hmm.

[00:24:48] Mark Redgrave: So, so look, from an organizational design, from a leadership point of view, like this is why it's so challenging. I mean, I, I, that's a bit of a tangent, but Right.

For me, this is why I love this shit, right? Sorry I didn't, didn't mean to swear, but I, I love this stuff because like all of these things we know and love around leadership are converging right now in front of our eyes and a very fast moving scenario.

[00:25:07] Tom Adams: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, um, it's beautiful and scary and I think, uh, you know, mark, you've talked about it, which is, you know, build, build a, a cave or a, uh, thing that you, you just exit from this. But I, I think that's the, that's the challenge is, is we've, we've gotta kind of be eyes wide open in terms of this is coming at us in an unusually fast end.

Untrust, trustworthy way and, and sort of what I spoke to earlier, which is weirdly, the media tends to amplify what's wrong. Not always what's right because

[00:25:41] Mark Redgrave: Yeah.

[00:25:42] Tom Adams: tends to get response from stuff that scares us. And so that gets amplified, amplified, amplified all the time. And what we tend to work towards is can we see through that muck and go, what do we gotta figure out?

What do we gotta learn? How do we, how can we be curious about this? And, uh, how can we grow our capabilities and our capacity from that perspective through curiosity,

[00:26:06] Mark Redgrave: Yep.

[00:26:06] Tom Adams: that, that whole concept. So,

[00:26:09] Ryan Niemann_1: Tom, I, I think you, you, you brought up a good point just that. it, it is that mindset shift in your perception. One of the things that I've started to focus in on is those moments of joy.

Like there's

just

[00:26:21] Tom Adams: hmm.

[00:26:22] Ryan Niemann_1: that start to use it and all of a sudden

they're like,

[00:26:24] Tom Adams: Yeah.

[00:26:25] Ryan Niemann_1: there's a sense of like that. That was actually

a really good experience.

Like how do I do more of that? How do I lean in and find more joy in a job that I've been doing for a long time

[00:26:38] Tom Adams: Yeah.

[00:26:39] Mark Redgrave: We talked about that, didn't we, on the previous one, which is like, and this is where, um, that concept of like, use it for personal stuff 'cause that brings Joy Ryan. Yeah. And it's a very good way to get people just into it. You know, I've heard a number of people say that like, get your team, you know, like, um, this, this idea of plan your itinerary for a weekend in, in, um, uh, you know, in Seattle.

Things like that, right? Like it's, um, they're use, they're good use cases. so Tom, I wanna pick up on, on, you used the word strategy a minute ago, right? Like, this is, this is really important as well, if you are a CEO trying to navigate this, okay.

Like, like, like your strategy is your strategy and must be held firm, right? Like AI and the use of AI is in service of your strategy,

[00:27:32] Tom Adams: right?

[00:27:33] Mark Redgrave: So, do not, do not blow up your business and your strategy, your strategic planning. Process. Okay. Because of this, you need a solid strategy. Okay? And then you need to figure out how to use AI in service of the strategy.

I see some CEOs today that are kind of holding, right? They're like, they're sort of pausing and you go, it's good to reflect, but it's like. This is in service of what you're trying to achieve as a business. So, you know, so that's another layer here, right? I think it's part of what we're seeing out there.

[00:28:10] Tom Adams: Yeah, and, and, and, and that I, I think also speaks to the fact that there's also a lot of people who are trying to insert AI a. Element of their strategy instead of in service of, and that,

[00:28:23] Mark Redgrave: Right.

[00:28:23] Tom Adams: becomes really a challenging thing for people like to, to, uh, because I've , sat in on sort of planning meetings and they go, we, we have to add AI to our strategy.

Instead of no, we're we're going this direction. Can it be in service of that? Which to me is a massive distinction.

[00:28:43] Mark Redgrave: That's su super important. We, I'm, I'm sure the three of us are seeing, feeling this when we're talking to people. Um, you know, so, um, yeah. That's a, that's a, I I guess I, I was just responding to the, this. Genesis of an idea, which is like, why are people resistant? And it's like, you've gotta, you've gotta plan, right?

You've gotta, if you've, you've got a business, you need a strategy, you need a plan, then figure out like, how does new technology fit into that? And AI is a new technology. It's a big one. It's a fast one, but

it's, it's just technology.

[00:29:14] Tom Adams: Yeah.

[00:29:15] Ryan Niemann_2: You know, actually, uh, thanks for, uh, apologize. I think my network connection got a little fuzzy there. Um, I, think where you're, you were maybe just in the last five, 10 seconds, um, this discussion around AI is actually surfacing other challenges in an organization. Um, because, you know, I've heard what we need.

it'll, it'll make it better. But we've all heard before, if it's a, if it's bad data, it'll only make it worse. If it's a bad process, it'll only make it worse. And so really rethinking the way that you're thoughtfully adopting any kind of new technology, and, and in any kind of variation of AI is absolutely critical

[00:30:01] Mark Redgrave: And, and it's in service of Ryan. Right? We, we dropped you just for a

second there,

[00:30:04] Ryan Niemann_2: of,

[00:30:05] Mark Redgrave: that was the point. yeah.

It's, it's like, um, it's, it, it needs, the strategy is the strategy. You need one.

[00:30:13] Tom Adams: I'm, I'm interested in, in all of our personal stuff on this, because generally the three of us are out trying to support others with how they think about AI and transformation and doing stuff differently. But I, but I think a lot of times it, it's really helpful to voice our own. Struggle with our own resistance. Um, you know, the vulnerability of that, which is where are you personally? Um, finding, uh, a level of resistance or uncertainty or, I don't know what to do personally because I, I, you know, and I, I'll, I'll start because I, I feel like, I get into the place of I'm down this path along way. Um, whatever that means because I don't, I don't have any other paths to compare it to.

I just feel like I'm deep in this well, and then I, then I literally, I go, I, I, I can't process anymore. My brain just can't handle the volume of stuff coming at me. Uh, and so sometimes I feel like I. I, I purposefully step back to just allow time to, to make sense of what I already know, let alone what's coming at me. and that, that's a personal thing for me because I just, I, I'm curious, like crazy. and I think a lot of, uh, leaders and, uh, entrepreneurs and people who run businesses are insanely curious. A lot of time, that's what I find about them. Like they wanna learn, they want to, but in, in my own life, I go. I'm insanely that way, but I'm, I'm done.

I can't, I can't actually fill the tank anymore. Uh, and I need to give myself breaks so that I, I sort of have capacity to come back at it. What, what are you guys experiencing in that regard?

[00:31:57] Ryan Niemann_2: You know what comes to mind is, um, pumping the brakes now and then in. Assessing the immense amount of change and productivity impact that I've, that I've seen. Um, you know, I think my, my friends, my family would talk about, you know, that I, I do come back around to this, uh, I think it was one of the first episodes where we, we, I talked about.

There's this compelling sense to ensure those that I care about see this and

[00:32:30] Tom Adams: Hmm.

[00:32:31] Ryan Niemann_2: taking some steps forward. 'cause I feel that it's that important for, uh, those that I, I care about. And, and so I think I've kind of hit this point where maybe I, I'm gonna stop talking. I'm not gonna talk about it at Thanksgiving.

I'm gonna tell you that right now.

[00:32:49] Tom Adams: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:52] Mark Redgrave: I, I guess from, for Tom, from my perspective, there's a couple of things that I'm quite aware of. The first is just be mindful of the media, right? So I try to, I'm trying to look for. Use cases and real stuff

and, and it's hard. But, um, you know, like there's a lot of hyperbole. There's a lot of, you know, it's great reading, but I'm not sure it's a good use of my time. Um, and, and the second thing is like back to a, a comment we made before, which is like. If it's important, make it important. And this is true for us, but it's also true of a lot of the people we

advise, and I think a lot of the people that are hopefully listening to some of these episodes because it's like there can, or there's always an excuse for not doing it.

Right. there's

there's always, and I find myself falling into this trap,

[00:33:41] Tom Adams: I.

[00:33:41] Mark Redgrave: like, I have to fine time for this. So for example, this morning when we, when we dropped the podcast, I'm off for a two hour session with a very, very good client. Um, not actually, not a client of mine, but a associate of mine who's doing a really deep, quite technical dive, um, on, um, prompting and how it's impacted his business.

Very big business, multi-billion dollar business.

Um, uh, 'cause I've just got to invest in this learning and it's like, it, so, so, but I find it hard because just like CEOs, we're, we're all CEOs of our own small businesses. Um, I'm really busy, but

it's like. If it's important, we've gotta make it important.

Right? And you say this is, this is clearly a once in a lifetime technology change. We are sat right at the forefront of,

so I would say it's pretty bloody important. So I struggle with that honestly, because there's always like, there's always client work to do, but I'm like, I've got, if I'm gonna do the right thing by my clients, I really do need to understand what's happening.

So I struggle, I struggle with that if I'm honest.

[00:34:45] Tom Adams: Yeah. And that, that's, that's why I, wanted to raise it because it's easy for people to assume that, that we're, somehow we've got this figured out and frankly, we don't. We're just willing to have the conversation and we're deeply curious. Uh, and, and so internally we all face our own resistance because change. Uh, force resistance. Sometimes like massive change creates sort of the, uh, what is it, the, uh, the, the sort of opposing effect, right? When, when something changes so rapidly, we have to go find our stability somehow. And, and that's, that, that's evident in us and it's evident in our, in the clients we serve. Uh, but it doesn't force us to stop. And I just love, uh, mark your concept of creativity. Just like, um, be curious and, and look for. Um, look for opportunities to just learn something small as it may be, go into curiosity mode, um, and, and then find the willing, the people who are willing and who are excited about it already.

Like those are the ones you wanna kind of latch onto as the people who are going, yeah, this is so cool. Who can't stop talking about it at Thanksgiving.

[00:35:54] Ryan Niemann_2: I, I will tell you this, Tom, I feel better, like there was a point in time where I, I, I felt in maybe encumbered, uh,

[00:36:03] Tom Adams: Mm.

[00:36:03] Ryan Niemann_2: uh, maybe even challenged or, uh, you know, scratching my head, scared. I think, uh, I remember Mark, you said there's some CEOs that are like, I'm out. That's it.

[00:36:11] Tom Adams: Right,

[00:36:12] Ryan Niemann_2: like I'm

[00:36:13] Tom Adams: right.

[00:36:13] Ryan Niemann_2: And. And. I was like, man, I, I'm trying to get my head around this.

And especially in the, the SaaS space or tech enabled services, it's, much more pronounced. Um, you know, Satya Nadella said, uh, SaaS is dead in December of 2024. I think that that was his quote. Uh, and I really didn't think or. understand it, uh, maybe didn't even believe it. And then as this year started to unfold, I was like, oh, there are some underpinnings to that and really understanding it.

[00:36:42] Mark Redgrave: Yep.

[00:36:42] Ryan Niemann_2: And I, I started to think about that. You know, there's two frontiers. There's the frontier of SaaS and enabling, going from systems of engagement to systems of action. And, and that unfolding and, and, and creating ag agentic AI experiences on a SaaS platform. That's, that's a big undertaking.

[00:37:03] Tom Adams: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:05] Ryan Niemann_2: the internal changes

[00:37:07] Tom Adams: Yeah.

[00:37:07] Ryan Niemann_2: or a tech enabled services company where you have to change the way you're engineering, you have to change the way that you're

[00:37:12] Mark Redgrave: Yeah.

[00:37:13] Ryan Niemann_2: enabling go to market.

You have to change the way that you're enabling operations. Those are big undertakings.

[00:37:18] Tom Adams: Yeah.

[00:37:19] Ryan Niemann_2: Um, and then you look at, uh, traditional companies and that. Adoption of, of ai, both the horizontal ai enabling copilot for a large group of users or creating those vertical solutions. And those are large undertakings.

at one point I, I thought, you know, this is a huge tidal wave. Where's my surfboard?

[00:37:41] Tom Adams: Right,

right.

Yeah.

[00:37:43] Ryan Niemann_2: I just was gonna in

[00:37:45] Mark Redgrave: So,

[00:37:46] Ryan Niemann_2: start about how to. Usher it in

[00:37:50] Tom Adams: Yep,

[00:37:50] Ryan Niemann_2: to watching it

[00:37:52] Tom Adams: yep.

[00:37:52] Ryan Niemann_2: worried about it. It's like, let's get a forward

[00:37:55] Tom Adams: Jump on it. Yeah.

[00:37:55] Mark Redgrave: But let's, let's, let's bring this back

to the, to the, essence of Tom's challenge, right? And it's like we are, you know, like we we're aiming, you know, the conversations we're sharing here at mid-market CEOs, right?

[00:38:07] Tom Adams: Yep.

[00:38:07] Mark Redgrave: it's like, when you're saying that, Ryan, I'm, I'm half excited and I'm half terrified still. So, so it's like, 'cause you're making me rethink like, everything about everything and

like, I don't really, that doesn't make me feel good. So, so, so

like what I'm, what I'm, you know, where, where I land is like, is like if, if I am a CEO or a senior leader and I feel I have to get it right, I'm in servo lock, I'm doing nothing.

I'm doing nothing if you are a senior leader and you instead say, right. You know, like, I know we don't know, but we are gonna start experimenting, right? I, I know I'm not gonna get this right, but I'm committed to experimenting. At least I have some fluidity,

right? And, and I, I, I read this really nice quote the other day and it was like, create an organization that rewards questions, not answers.

And, and I and I and, and I'm like, that's, this is where we gotta be. Right? So, so, so like I would really encourage like everyone, um, who is overwhelmed, we know that we speak to enough people.

[00:39:18] Tom Adams: Yes.

[00:39:19] Mark Redgrave: like you've gotta just have a mindset where, hey, you're in good company. Yeah. Nobody knows you

[00:39:25] Tom Adams: Yeah.

[00:39:26] Mark Redgrave: nobody like you get at Thanksgiving.

No one's gonna know guys. So just, just like be the, be the person who

turns up around the Turkey and goes, I don't know, but we tried some stuff.

[00:39:37] Tom Adams: Yeah. Yes. Love it. Love it. Yes. Well, I, I think that's actually a really delightful way to kind of wrap this. But, um, Uh, Ryan, do you have any other recommendations for, uh, anyone who's listening for the next few days, the next week or so in their world, uh, to deal with their own resistance? What else would you say?

[00:39:58] Ryan Niemann_2: Uh, I don't know if it's something else. I would reinforce create your team.

[00:40:02] Tom Adams: Yeah.

[00:40:02] Ryan Niemann_2: a team sport. Find those around you that, uh, help enable you, uh, challenge you to work in different ways or, uh, are also collectively looking at research and, and, and the, the news and media, and bringing, uh, those insights to you and, and helping foster your, your own journey on AI and your path forward.

[00:40:25] Tom Adams: Beautiful. And I, and I would just, uh, wrap what everyone said with, uh, continue to be curious. Uh, just kind of be looking for things that, that grab your attention. Uh, but I'll also add, be willing to, uh, make a commitment to doing what we've talked about, which is find a way to. with something, try something, do something, and then have the courage to step into the mucky uncertainty of it all and gain some capabilities.

And that to me is the essence of what we're trying to do e each and uh, every day and what we wanna talk about to share with you. So thank you all for being here. We appreciate you immensely. Uh, brothers, I appreciate how, uh, how, how incredibly willing you are to share this journey with me. And, thank you for your wisdom in that.

[00:41:12] Mark Redgrave: Awesome. Thanks

Tom.

[00:41:14] Ryan Niemann_2: Tom, and we miss you, Mike,

[00:41:16] Mark Redgrave: Yeah.

[00:41:16] Ryan Niemann_2: you're at. Look forward to seeing you

[00:41:18] Mark Redgrave: Yeah, I think he needs to man up and come back. But anyway, we'll talk about that offline.

[00:41:23] Tom Adams: All right, cheers. Bye-bye.

[00:41:25] Mark Redgrave: See you guys. Thanks.​