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The Moonshots Podcast goes behind the scenes of the world's greatest superstars, thinkers and entrepreneurs to discover the secrets to their success. We deconstruct their success from mindset to daily habits so that we can apply it to our lives. Join us as we 'learn out loud' from Elon Musk, Brene Brown to emerging talents like David Goggins.
moonshots 101 pat lencioni final
[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's episode one Oh one. I'm your co-host mite Parsons. And as always I'm joined by the ultimate teammate himself. Mr. Mark Pearson Freeland. Good morning. Good morning, Mike. What a day to be thinking about teamwork and beginning our new century of a hundred shows ahead of us.
Now that we've launched episode 100 last week. Can you believe it? I know crazy, but Hey teamwork or what a great way to kick off another hundred shows, but I can assure you Alison there, we're not going to do a hundred shows on teamwork, but we are going to start quite the series. Yeah. Yep. We are really, really excited by this particular series.
We're going to do four shows all about [00:01:00] teamwork and we're going to get into some really, really interesting. Dissections really, really interesting looks and lessons and tips on maximizing. I think our ability to not only drive teams, but also be part of the MC I'm quite excited by this series. Yeah. And what, what a cracking topic particularly, I think teamwork just got a little bit harder in 20, 20 don't you w with the prevailing of remote working, whether you're in the same city, uh, maybe in the same neighborhood, or if you're working across borders internationally with different time zones, I'd say that.
Nowadays almost every person has, or maybe even teamwork of your family. I think every that person's probably now figuring out different ways of collaborating and communicating with members of their family and or teams this year 2020 particularly [00:02:00] has, um, you know, forced people into a slightly different way of working and teamwork, I think is one of those incredibly, um, You know, sometimes difficult things to, to really crack down when you're not working side by side or across the table.
Exactly. And I think, um, what is really cool is I think they're heading into a show that is really going to, to break apart this, as you said, somewhat unspoken, this thing, teamwork, collaboration working together, uh, that is not spoken about nearly enough. And there's one guy who loves to speak about it, right?
Yeah. First episode, episode 101. Episode, one of our teamwork series is Patrick. Lencioni's five dysfunctions of a team. And this is, um, well, I mean, this is a [00:03:00] landmark bookmark this book and at the thinking, uh, and, uh, in particular, these five things that he nominates that are at the core of teamwork. I cannot tell you.
I am always coming back to this piece of work. This, this is up there with scenic in terms of reusable, constantly referred to it's right there on the bookshelf. It's in high usage, uh, here at the Parson's headquarters. I mean, it's, it's an interesting, um, Book, because it's, you know, both functional, like you say, in terms of the pyramid, and we'll probably make some comparisons to, uh, Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
You know, I love the fact that you guys, as a family unit continually refer back to it, but it's quite an interesting book. Isn't it, Mike? Because it's actually a, um, a fable. Of a leadership team, you know, it's yeah. Potential issues that you might encounter as your team grows and struggles that they might [00:04:00] have when they're working together.
And it's just a perfect, um, I suppose, demonstration of challenges that all of us face and the way that it's told in this inverted commas fable allows us to sort of place ourselves into that narrative and therefore. No, that it would fit quite nicely into our own working styles. Yeah. So he, he really calls out some of those all too recognizable moments where we're like, Oh yeah, I've seen that.
Um, but Mark, I think we're set it up. We're going to get into a teamwork series. We're going to start with the King of teams, Patrick, Valencia on it. Um, and I just can't help saying that with a bit of an Italian thrill to, to the end, but let's, let's. Feed this hungry audience. Let's open them up to Patrick.
Lensioni where shall we start? Well, I'll listen. As I've heard you meet, talk about teamwork. Um, already we can't, [00:05:00] we can't get away from it. Can we, we give them gravitating. We want to talk about it, but before we talk about it, any more Mike you're right. Let's hear from Patrick Lindsay on the telling us what inspired him to write the book and what he thinks about teamwork.
And all of this is based on the premise that life more than ever is a team sport. My name is Pat Lencioni. I have been working with teams for the past 25 years in the corporate world. And in other settings, I've also written two books about teamwork. The first one I wrote years ago, it's called the five dysfunctions of a team.
And then recently I wrote a, a sequel called the ideal team player, which is the basis of today's talk and where I explore those three virtues. Now, when I say. That life is a team sport. I realized that could sound kind of like a cheesy cliche. You know, life is a team sport, but I really believe it's true.
I mean, we take for granted the fact that in the workforce today, people can be on the same team as somebody that lives on the other side of the world, across continents and oceans and cultures and [00:06:00] language. And that's largely because of technology. But when I started my career about 30 years ago, which isn't that long ago in the grand scheme of things, we couldn't even imagine doing this, but today because of technology, people can work together.
In so many different ways. And as a result of that technology, people are developing an organization's solutions that are amazing and complex that are solving problems in business and medicine and communication on every kind of field. And those complex solutions demand that people collaborate and work as teams to implement them.
Even within a company, you have to work across divisional or departmental lines, or with people in other companies, even competitors today are having to work together to implement these important solutions. This really is the era of teamwork in business, but even in our personal lives, teamwork has permeated everything.
My wife and I have four sons at home. And we like to say that by the time that each of them was in middle school, they had played on more teams [00:07:00] with more coaches in more sports and gone to more darn tournaments than we did in our entire lives combined. And that's to say nothing of all the other extracurricular activities that happen on teams.
Even in the classroom, teamwork is everywhere. I mean, my kids come home. I don't know how many times they've come home with an assignment and said those four dreaded words, it's a group project. And I asked them that dreaded four word question. Who's on your team. I'm not ashamed to say that more than once I've said to my sons, if you want to get a good grade, you might have to be prepared to do most of the work yourself.
Teamwork is everywhere. And yet we continue to train people in education and in the workforce for primarily individual and technical skills. And I think that needs to change. Yeah. I mean, what, there's so many points in that my, the big one for me is everyone has such a high focus on technical skills. [00:08:00] Yes.
If you're going to practice those skills, you're going to need to work in a team. And isn't it amazing how little we are trained in teamwork yet? How much we are trained in. Designing writing, illustrating doing a P and L forecasting, all of these things, but none of those things can happen without teamwork.
I mean, we're not all living as hermits Zoe. Well, imagine giving, uh, an individual, a hammer, a spanner, and a work bench and saying, cool, go and make me or go and fix my car. Hmm, you, you can't just throw somebody the tools and expect them to do the best job, you know, and it's, it's kind of similar in this world where you've got Google Hangouts, Slack, uh, face times zoom.
Um, I mean the list goes on WebEx, Microsoft teams, et cetera, by, by throwing [00:09:00] so many, um, inverted commerce collaboration tools at somebody is not a guarantee that it will make you more collaborative. It's not a guarantee that you will be a good team, just because you're using the latest software, latest tools and systems, you know, anything, those things can get in the way of a good communication line, because it feels maybe a little bit clumsy or it feels disingenuous.
Yeah, totally. Totally. Well, there you go. I mean, you know, Patrick has really set it up. He's basically saying, look, you know, life is a team sport. Let's get ready for it. It's not just work. It's not just the sports field, but actually. Even if you're operating as a family. So whether it's with your partner, your friends, your colleagues, or your team mates on the sports field, teamwork is of the essence.
And we are going to go so deep into the world of teamwork. [00:10:00] Um, now what's really cool is that, uh, Lensioni has this fantastic. A breakdown of the things that go wrong in a team. And we've been really fortunate, uh, that we have got a clip for each of these. As Patrick would call it dysfunctions. And I tell you what, Mark, as you, as we prepared this show, listening to some of these clips in situations, you know, like all too recognizable situation, right?
Yeah. Yeah. You can totally imagine yourself whether it's in your current job or at another point in your career or in those, on the sports pitch or in your family house, you know, a lot of these are recognizable moments in a Brian's life. Yeah. And what we're going to do together, Mark is we're going to call them out.
Um, you know, we're going to talk about, um, uh, where things go wrong and what that looks like. But the [00:11:00] great news for all of our listeners is we're going to talk about what you can do as a people. Leader to address these. Um, and we're going to get into some of those practices. We'll chat about some of our failings and attempts at doing this and, and hopefully everybody comes out of this a whole lot.
Wiser. What do you reckon, Mark? Yeah, I can't wait to get started Mike. So I mean, there's one at essence that it needs to, the teamwork needs to be built on, right. There needs to be a good solid foundation for any of these. Um, traits these processes, the settings, these, uh, family units and sports individuals to thrive on.
Right. Um, where do we begin, Mike? What's that base foundation. Ooh. The anchor of them all is, uh, very, very, uh, critical. Foundational concept of trust and it is the essence of teamwork. It is, it permeates [00:12:00] everywhere on a team yet is so little discussed. So let's go to the source himself, Patrick Lensioni and let's hear about trust.
The first thing I'm going to tell you is so ridiculously simple. It's almost embarrassing. Okay. The first thing that a team needs to be able to do, if it wants to work together is. Trust each other. How frigging obvious is that? Right? Can you believe they pay me to tell you that if you want to be a great team, you need to trust each other.
Okay. Moving right along. But here's the thing about trust. Trust for most people is not exactly what I'm talking about. When I talk about trust, see, most people think of trust is well, you and I have known each other for a long time so we can trust each other. We can predict one another's behavior. That's what I call pre predictive trust.
I can trust that this is how he's gonna react. If I say this to him, because I've known him for a long time. Well, any group of people that's known each other for a long time or work together for a long time, we'll have predictive trust, but that's not what makes a team great. When I talk about the kind of trust that makes a [00:13:00] team great, I'm talking about something called vulnerability based trust.
Vulnerability based trust is when human beings on a team can and will genuinely. Say things to one another, like, I don't know the answer I need help. I really screwed this up. You're much smarter than I am. Can you teach me how to be like you or I'm sorry. I was kind of a jerk to you yesterday. I apologize.
I shouldn't have done that when people can be that buck naked emotionally with one another. When you know, they're not going to hold anything back, they're going to be completely raw and open with one another. It changes the dynamics on a team like nothing else. And if there's one thing you take away from this talk today, I want you to realize that if you can go back and make the people help, the people you work with and yourself become more vulnerable with each other, it makes your team a completely different one.
And the best way to understand how powerful that is, is to think about times that you've worked on teams that didn't have vulnerability when people couldn't be. Yeah, [00:14:00] this is a good stock reminder that it's very, very easy to fall into. Longevity. It's very easy to fall into the kind of daily doldrum of.
Okay. Well, I've got a job, somebody somebody's given me some feedback, whatever. Oh yeah. So-and-so wants to do a review. Okay. Sure. Whatever, you know, this, um, Consistent behavior that may be a lot of our listeners have maybe experienced particularly this year where, you know, days and weeks of sort of melded into one because of, um, you know, strange, um, perhaps lack of variety that everybody's existed through this year.
It, it kind of stems into this predictability of trust. Um, as, as Patrick was just saying that, and although it feels like collaboration's really good because of. Longevity and the duration that somebody that the team has been together, it's not actually that secret key [00:15:00] for me. Uh, Mike fascinating, um, phrase that was the buck naked buck naked and totally transparent and honest with each other is like Pat says, it seems so.
Obvious, but actually it's really easy to not follow that behavior. It's it's true. And, and I think largely speaking, I think we all just get very comfortable with. You know, familiarity, tenure together and knowing each other's quirks. But I think where UNC only is taking it, as he's saying guys, it is about your capacity to be vulnerable with each other.
And then safety is essential because if you can say struggling or I messed it up, or I'm not sure what to do and people go, okay, I'll help. That is awesome. [00:16:00] That stuff is so good for a team. And you know, that I think we can all admit, there are times when we fear being vulnerable, but I think it's crazy to think about if everybody's a bit scared to be vulnerable, but everybody wants to do a better job.
It's like a Mexican standoff. Everyone's standing around the circle. It's like, is someone going to just. Be open here. Like, is someone just going to be Frank and candid or are we all going to bottle it all up? And I think, um, you know, this is where we start to explore the opportunity that we have when we're in a team to try and give voice to that.
And I think the best thing to do. Is to be vulnerable yourself, if you want others to be vulnerable around you. So rather than sort of going on the judgemental attack, um, if you feel like someone's not, uh, not delivering for the team. Then I [00:17:00] think it starts with us raising our own hand. What do you think?
Yeah. Leading with leading by example can often help those around you feel more relaxed from a trust perspective, right? If you've got to your leader who feels like an untouchable individual and they then show a little bit of vulnerability. It humanizes them and makes the rest of the team remember, Oh, hang on there.
They're just doing a job. They're doing their best at leading me. If I'm being, you know, maybe difficult or if I'm not pulling my weight, um, it, it affects all of us. You know, it affects part of the team. And actually when an individual like people leader does step back and lead by example and perhaps show their vulnerability as well.
Yeah, I think it inspires conversation and it drives more trust within that team. [00:18:00] So that they can go and do the same behavior. So if you're in a team situation, Mark, and you want to share something and, uh, maybe it could be a look I'm struggling with this or any form of vulnerability. How do you, do you have any techniques that you use to share those thoughts that.
You know, I really call on you to be vulnerable. Like how do you, how do you get that vulnerability thing happening? Yeah, I mean, it can be pretty, pretty scary, I guess. I think trying to pause and think, okay, well, how do I really feel about this, uh, process or maybe this deliverable or maybe the way that we're working and collaborating together?
How could we. Take a moment and a beat and actually think how we could maybe do better. I think sometimes, you know, just stems from, from feedback, perhaps asking [00:19:00] individuals for feedback and actually providing feedback yourself to somebody and say, Hey, okay, look, I'll be honest. Last week you let me down on X, but that's okay because we can improve.
Do you have any feedback for me and trying to maintain a. I kind of exchange perhaps is, is quite a high to keep it level. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's not easy, is it? And I think that, um, finding a way to be open and saying, Hey, um, I was struggling with this. I find when I think about this and when I try my best to, to build this trust through vulnerability, I think it's really important.
Uh, to say that I'm disappointed in and outcome, and I feel responsible for it. Um, and I'm [00:20:00] not happy with where we're at and I want it to be better. Um, I find that. Some of those key concepts of saying, look, whether it was me or not, I take ownership and this is we're going back to yakka willing here. I really do take ownership and responsibility here and in doing so I'm going to call myself out and I'm going to say that it's not good enough.
I'm going to hold myself to a higher standard. I think this is a really good way of expressing some vulnerabilities because in doing so, you're also saying. But it's not good enough. And I'm going to hold myself to a higher level. I think that's a really good step in being more open and being more vulnerable with your colleagues.
Because I think that gives particularly for people that are perhaps maybe struggling a little bit with this vulnerability, it gives them a sort of a safety element by introducing saying that I'm going to call myself and I'm going to say, I don't think it's good enough and I'm going to work. Harder and I'm going to work better [00:21:00] to get the right result.
Here's where I think I let us down. I think that's a really nice way of starting the conversation. Yeah, I think that's, that's very, very sensible calling out a specific example helps people imagine when it took place. I mean, this Mike, this reminds me of, I think the second big lesson that. Um, Patrick Lencioni has for us, uh, because once you've got that trust, and once you're thinking about sharing those moments of perhaps vulnerability to your team and your people leader, perhaps, and those around you, maybe it's family, I think there is something that.
Consistently, perhaps blocks you are, people's willingness to do this. So it feels natural that the second step of Patrick Lencioni's triangle that we're going to talk about today is this idea of conflict. And this concept of taking the easy path is very, very easy to, to, to follow [00:22:00] consistently. Isn't it.
And this next clip that we're going to hear from Patrick Lencioni. Is telling us why actually conflict and that maybe the difficult parts where there's uncomfortable conversations should be welcomed because they're so, uh, purposeful. They have different conflict norms in different places, different families, different companies, different cultures.
You just have to know what that is. I don't care if it's Japanese or even here in the U S we have different conflict norms. It seems we have a transient nation, but somehow out here in California, there's very different conflict norms. And on the East coast. And I saw a cartoon years ago that showed somebody on the West coast.
It was in LA and. And it was two people in an office. And one of them said to the other one good morning, but the bubble showed what he was really thinking. And ineffective said, screw you. The next frame showed a guy in New York city, say to somebody, screw you. And the bubble said, good morning, you know, and you know, it's just true.
And, and you got to know where you are and what your team is. Like if you got to set conflict norms. So everybody understands who we [00:23:00] are and how we do this. But what, what matters to me is not what those norms are. What matters to me is that you stick to them and that, you know, That nobody's going to hold back their opinions.
If something is important, no member of that team is going to say, Oh, I'm not going to say anything because I'm going to calculate the political cost of this. Or I don't think this would be the right thing to do for my career. No, no, no. On a great team because there's trust because there's vulnerability based trust and everybody knows they're comfortable being buck naked with one another.
They are not going to hold back their opinion. Why would they you see with trust when you're vulnerable with each other? Conflict is nothing but the pursuit of truth or the best possible answer. Why would I, if I trust you implicitly vulnerably with vulnerability, why would I be upset with you disagreed with me?
Cause I know all we're trying to do is figure out the right answer. That's a great thing. If there's not trust, if we don't have vulnerability, conflict is a very bad, but then it becomes manipulation and [00:24:00] politics. Now I'm just trying to win. Because see, I'm not going to listen to you, even if you disagree and have a good point.
That's why as much as you might want to say, we need to get better at conflict. You've got to start with trust. You got to start with trust. How good is that Mark? I mean, Oh, and isn't this like, it's almost, um, It's like a disruptive, uh, thing. When you think about it, that conflict is just the pursuit of truth.
We often take it so damn personally, that we all get caught up in the emotions and the, and the implications of the feelings of the conflict of the argument. But actually if teams really trust each other in the right way, That conflict is just voraciously fighting for what's right. For what is the truth?
What is the best thing that we should do? What is the best solution? And I love this idea that conflict is the pursuit [00:25:00] of truth, because conflict is almost like, you know, what Lensioni calls out is where teams have this artificial harmony, where everyone's nice and, you know, chatty, but underneath it.
There's not the conflict. There's not the pursuit of truth. I mean, this, this had a lot in it. I love it. The phrase, artificial harmony, I think that's so true. You know, our desire, all of our desires to maintain that artificial truth at your job or in your family is, is perhaps great in the short term.
Because you think, Oh, I'll keep my head down. I'll further my career. Or I'll keep the family happy, whatever it is once you actually push against that and strive for real truth, real honesty and drive up that, that trust. Yeah. It's a little more, little more valuable. And the results have far, far higher. I mean, for me, Mike, this is.
[00:26:00] A little bit of a challenge, I suppose, because you, we were all brought up on trying to keep the boat from rocking. You know, you almost want to do your best work. You want to take the, um, the hand slaps if you're in trouble or you want to respect the hierarchy of, of organizations and so on. But actually the truth is as we gradually, um, all age and go to different companies.
And so on, a lot of those hierarchies are flatter and ultimately exactly as Pat Lynch is calling out here, the best businesses are those that encourage, um, honest and, and, uh, you know, fair. Feedback and commentary between individuals. And I think this is a great reminder for all of us that you might, you might get more back than [00:27:00] you.
Um, You might get more back from having those conversations than you think it might be more work, time to go and do them. And actually just by taking that little bit of a risk, maybe the first time that you do, it feels a little bit risky. You're not sure how the other person is going to take it, but gradually as, as Pat calls out, you start to create those.
Conflict norms hold them. You respect them and you encourage them. Who I, I think it's, I think it's a really interesting challenge that he's setting to us. Yeah. It's it's it makes you a bit uncomfortable when you think about it, but I do, I want to pitch you a suggestion for having these tough conversations.
Are you ready? Hit me. All right. Okay. So I think, you know, when, when we talk about, you know, This, you know, fear of conflict. Um, I think a way to make it more digestible and a way to start these sorts of tough conversations [00:28:00] is to have a really deliberate focus on facts and the data. So the mistake, I think a lot of us make is people say, well, I think this really sucks, or we're doing terribly at this, like, Whoa, steady steady.
Let's go. Hey, over the last two consecutive years, we've had a 13% decline in whatever. Okay. So just by being more factual and just showing a light on the data itself and not rushing to conclusions and having a very deliberate, critical thinking path, which is what's the data. What are the insights we can draw from that.
And then we can get into recommendations about what to do. I think everybody just is like, well, you should change everything because marketing sucks, right? I mean, this is this, [00:29:00] making it a bit dramatic, but, but kind of this, what have people often. Express themselves. If you want to have the right sort of conversation, you want to have tough conversations, stay with the facts and, and, you know, don't jump to those conclusions, but go together through the facts, draw the insights and then ask yourself, okay, what should we do now?
Yeah. Yeah. I, I look at the facts. It's such again, we've spoken about this a lot on the podcast, um, because of our desire to create products that have true meaning to our end users and the customers and ultimately to that brand. But you're right in that kind of classic ad worldy scenario, right? We're not selling any products.
Gotta be marketing bin them. Let's start again. Yeah, but I think it's also when you come with these really unfounded opinions or just very, uh, very, uh, light [00:30:00] considerations, I think that's often where people feel that there is accusation and it's not a trusting sort of safe environment. Yes. I think I re really starting with facts is, is a fast track to having these tougher conversations and you can argue the facts and then you can get to what are the facts?
You can argue insights, but. You know, what we're going to see coming up is that this precursor, this foundation of trust and having these tough conversations, opens us up to a world of possibilities within teams, within our families, with our colleagues, friends. But before we go there, Mark, I feel that there's a place where there's no conflict where there's a whole lot of trust and where we are.
So. Much a team with our listeners that we want our listeners to tell us who we are focused on. What innovators should we be studying together? [00:31:00] And where should they go to? There is a safe place on the internet called moonshots.io. There are listeners will find a hundred. Pure episodes of moonshot thinking and deep dive into many, many different authors entrepreneurs and a number of our series.
Mike, such as the habits series, the women in innovation series and our media global, uh, series. And. Also based over there, as you say, is, is a little spot that we like to call our feedback section. And there are listeners can go along, leave us their thoughts, leave us their inputs, as well as their recommendations on who we should focus on in the next 100 episodes.
We've got a lot of great recommendations already cooking in the background, and we've got a number of potential author series as well as even new types of series that we can come on to in the future. And we'd love for you, our [00:32:00] listeners, just to get in touch with us and let us know if you're listening every day, every week, who should we dig into for you?
Exactly. Exactly. And we love to hear from you because we hear from people all around the world. We hear from folks in the U S you're in Asia. We even hear from people just across the Tasman ocean. And I think we we've got to. Call out our New Zealand, brothers and sisters. Um, do you want to share some of the feedback that we got from, from across the pond?
Wonderful review over the last few days from ponger proud, um, hailing from, from one of our neighboring nations, New Zealand, New Zealand, um, who left us a very, very kind and very sweet review. Um, really, we're both really, really humbled and pleased. Uh, ponger proud that you're studying to see, um, the amount of [00:33:00] instances that all of us can learn from, uh, entrepreneurs and innovators, and particularly in this potential strange climate.
Um, there are opportunities that we can all grow from and, and become. Perhaps more patient or perhaps better teamwork, uh, players. And it's amazing to hear from you. Ponder are proud. So thank you so much for reaching out to us. And we're glad that it's, uh, providing you a little bit of value in your commute.
Yes. And, um, a lot of clarity coming to us, uh, from the fair shows of New Zealand. And there's also a lot of clarity coming to us from Patrick Lensioni. So here we are, we have done the first. Two parts of the five dysfunctions of a team, uh, authored by Patrick Lencioni. And we're about to get into the third one.
And this is something that I feel like is my life's pursuit in my work. It's always looking for this one word that Patrick Lensioni is going [00:34:00] to tell us about and this word. Is clarity. So every time we avoid intellectual or ideological disagreement, just nowhere drastically increasing the likelihood of really painful and hurtful conflict later, we're just kicking the can down the street and it gets bigger.
Okay. Conflict is a good thing. Now conflict is a good thing because it enables us to have commitment. You see without conflict. We don't actually get buy-in what do we get? Okay. We have a difficult decision to make. I don't want us to argue. I'm just going to make the decision as the leader, trust me. It's the right thing to do.
And people go, okay, they nod their heads. Do they really buy into that decision? No, they go back to their teams and people say, what do you think of the decision? And they go, Oh, I don't know. And they say, or they, and then they go alligator arm, the decision. They're like, Oh, let me help with that. Oh, okay.
Yeah, no, you know, they don't really get out there and say, I'm part of this. If you want to get active [00:35:00] commitment to an issue, you have to get people to actively engage in the discussion beforehand. That doesn't mean they're going to vote on it and agree. This is not an argument for consensus. I actually do not like consensus.
I like right. Really honest discussion. And unless there's a natural consensus and if there is that's beautiful. Thank you God. But if there's not an, a natural consensus and everybody's weighed in and you don't know what to do, that's why leaders get paid. The medium-sized. Cause they have to break the tie.
And do you know that when people weigh in on a decision, even if the decision doesn't turn out the way they wanted it to, they will buy into that decision. But if people don't weigh in on a decision, they can't buy in. If I don't know that I've been heard, I can't possibly go I'll help. No matter what. See, that's why we need conflict because conflict, the wane in leads to commitment the buy-in.
Yes, that's right. If you've got no vested interest. [00:36:00] Then you're not going to really, really commit to that potential challenge that one of your teammates or family members is facing, you know, this idea of the alligator arms, you know, uh, potentially dingy, uh, you know, according to the urban dictionary, as we looked up earlier, it's somebody who kind of pretends to want to help, you know, and that's really, uh, I think we've all.
Kind of experienced Cummins or maybe team members who have probably done that before. And, and he's right. What Patrick Lindsay is calling out here is without having that clarity and that understanding of, okay, well, this is what I need, and this is why it matters. Um, the commitment from those around us is never going to be particularly helpful.
It's not going to be particularly valuable and it kind of wastes both sides time. Doesn't it mind? It doesn't. And I love this idea that if you want people to buy into your idea, they have to be able to [00:37:00] discuss it. I'll take it further to challenge it. Now, often we love to present our stuff and make it perfect.
And the macula, and everyone's like, wow. But actually what he's saying is like, if people don't get to challenge, discuss and argue and really. Be heard they ain't buying nothing. It's quite interesting. Cause I think we all have a little bit the habit of wanting to say, well, isn't it great. And any questions?
Nope. Okay. Moving along. No, no, no, no, no. Lots of questions. Lots of argument. Lots of back and forth, right? Yeah. I mean that's how it an idea. Uh, becomes better. Doesn't it by a feedback by somebody poking at it a little bit. This is why we go and talk to customers and end users for, um, [00:38:00] prototyping ideas.
Right? Mike, we want to find out that our idea might stink in a certain way and it's better to find it out. Now it's better to find out that your product might have a weakness before you go through the lengthy process of building it. Of promoting it on of paying for it. Instead, once you've broken it down, maybe it's you and me in front of a whiteboard, maybe it's our listeners in the car talking about an idea with their family, whatever it might be once you've broken it down and communicated it to your team.
Wherever they might be. And they've provided you that honest feedback. Remember, it's born on trust. It's born on this, uh, embracing of conflict and making it normal. Um, I think it, I think it things get better. The end product gets. Stronger. Yeah. And Patrick even says, look, you know, consensus is like, fantastic.
If you can get it, but it's okay if you don't, because here's the [00:39:00] real nuance. He says that if people have been able to vigorously discuss the idea and maybe they're. Uh, suggestion has not been embraced by the rest of the team. They can still get on board because they were heard they had the tough discussion.
And if you don't let someone get hurt, it is. You're not going to get them on board with your idea. What if you take this to the next level? What's so cool is even if you guys disagree, if you legitimately give them time to discuss, to argue and to understand. Then you've actually got a chance of still getting their support, even though they didn't think this was the best path they can still get on board because they were heard very, very powerful thinking, something that we don't do very much as human beings right now.
It's very easy just to lead from the front, but actually by involving your team in that decision making process for feedback [00:40:00] you're right. They come along on the journey and. Everybody improves the product improves, but actually the team itself and the business goes down that track and gets better with age.
Absolutely. Now what's so fascinating in these first three ideas is we see that you kind of. You know, with trust, you can then build, uh, into tough conversations and have those healthy conflicts. And through that, you can get clarity and you can get the commitment. Um, now what's really interesting is you see how they all interrelate, and this is really true of this next idea.
And the next idea is it's all about. Uh, trying to solve, this is something that happens in teams a lot is the avoidance of accountability. All right. And so. People are like, Ooh, this feels personally a little bit uncomfortable. I don't really know if I really want to [00:41:00] kind of sign up for this. Like, you know, people like to hide in a meeting and like, it's the classic, like, so who's going to do this.
And the room goes quiet. Right. You know, those moments, Mark. Yeah. Yeah. I do. Nobody wants to take ownership to that. That idea is so easy. So there's teams, particularly if they haven't had. The discussions, if they haven't been heard, how, how could you expect them to want to like commit to a plan? Oh, you know what part of that will come from?
Perhaps they don't, they claim that they understand the idea, but they don't have the confidence. Oh, you're set right. Delivered by going through the commitment and having those conversations. You're like, we were just saying the product gets better. The team gets better, but actually everybody's awareness and understanding improves.
So it's more likely that there'll be able to take accountability and ownership for it if they get it. Mm, I totally agree. So, [00:42:00] um, Yeah, what comes after this? You've you've you've got the trust. You've had the tough conversations. You're starting to get some clarity, some commitment, what comes next month?
Well, this next clip that we're going to hear from Patrick Lencioni is our accountability. So once you've taken them on that journey, once everybody's understood it and they have the capacity and the position in order to maybe provide a little bit of feedback, we want to now figure out who, um, Can lead it, who actually has the ability to, um, you know, hold each other accountable and, um, further our conversation and the ability for our products to grow.
So this next clip that we got from Patrick Lencioni is all about the avoidance of accountability. But peer pressure. Think about the best teams in the world. Like firefighters and soldiers on a rescue mission, or police or people in the emergency room at a hospital. They don't wait for the supervisor to come around.
Somebody is going to bleed [00:43:00] out or something terrible is going to happen. And so you have to say to your peer, what's going on. Come on. I need more from you. If you wait and talk to the boss and the boss was like, Oh great. Now I get to tell him, Hey, somebody told me you weren't doing this. Oh, really? Who told you?
I don't know. It doesn't matter. Let's just now they're wondering who ran it out. The bosses dragged it. This sucks. But when that person, that person says, Hey, what's going on? And they correct each other. It's like, that's a sign of teamwork and I will actually use the word. That's a sign of love. If you love somebody telling them what their need to do better is a great service.
And great teams do that in all in on great sports teams. You'll see somebody on the court saying, Hey, that, and they'll go my bad, my bad, my bad. And they work it out. The coach doesn't have to say anything.
So here's the thing. How can we create and environment where everybody holds each other accountable? Because I know if you're a leader is sitting there going, Oh, this would be so sweet. If I didn't have to do this, the only way to create an environment where peers hold each other accountable is [00:44:00] if we as leaders.
Demonstrate that we're willing to hold them accountable. See, I don't think that the leader on a team is the primary source of accountability. In fact, I would say that the leader should be the ultimate source, but not the primary source peers should be the primary source. But if the leader is not willing to be the ultimate source, if people know that the leader is not going to hold people accountable, then they're not going to do it to one another.
I know this and I'm confident in this because I'm one of those leaders I don't like to hold people accountable. And that means my team. Doesn't like to hold each other accountable and it's my fault. And I'm working on this and if you've ever studied graduate level psychology or business, you know that there's a technical term for leaders like me, who don't like to hold people accountable.
We're what's called a Wolf. Yes, I am a wuss. And let me tell you something, there's a lot more whiskey leaders out there in the world than I thought sometimes the big hardened candy coated shell of a leader, like, Oh, I'm really tough. They'll say I don't have a problem with this accountability stuff. You can skip over that one.
Pedago. That's good. Why do you say [00:45:00] that? Well, I fire people all the time. I fired a guy last week. Pick someone I'll fire him right now, just to prove it firing somebody is not, that's often the act of cowardice in not having, um, held somebody accountable. I'm not saying you don't have to do that sometimes, but oftentimes we'll say so.
Have you, did you hold them accountable for their, Oh, I shouldn't have to do that. I'm busy. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. See accountability is looking at somebody and having the difficult conversation of, Hey, this is what I see in this house just to change. And it's an act of love. Most employees will say their careers changed because somebody took the time and had the courage to do that with them.
And then we get to be leaders. And if you're just like me and you go, I don't want to have to do that. I don't want that person to feel bad. It's like, no, we have to do that. Yeah, avoiding some hurt feelings is really, really the essence of this. Getting people to raise their hand to committing. Right. And don't [00:46:00] let them.
And, uh, perform don't be a worse as Patrick Lensioni said, like start having uncomfortable conversations early and consistently. And what he's saying right at the end there, I don't know if you got this, but he's like a lot of people look back to these tough conversations. When a manager made someone accountable to themselves and to how they're performing as being these pivotal.
Turning points, these big accelerations for them because it made them realize they could do better. The avoidance of accountability and how to get people signing up for a clear action plan. It is not nearly as easy as it sounds is it much? It's not easy again, you know, the great. Uh, steps that Patrick Lencioni's taking us on here are, yeah, they're a little bit conflicting in our, sorry.
They're a little bit of a, uh, they [00:47:00] feel like they're a conflict for us to go and follow, you know, nobody likes receiving hard feedback or being accountable for something that went wrong, but you're right. When you do. And when you look back at it later, whether it's six hours or six months, or maybe six years, you'll go back and think that was a moment that defined me the way that I responded to that helps me greatly.
I totally, I totally agree. And I think that, um, the. The fascinating thing about how we work as teams is the way in which, um, so much of this swirls around in our head, but is not discussed. And I think Lensioni only is really giving us. Some of these five dysfunctions. They're just so clear, you know, absence of trust, fear of conflict, lack of commitment.
We just talked about the avoidance of accountability. [00:48:00] When we talk about those things. In the right way as Patrick would want us to do. I think we can start to look at our goals, our objectives, and our results. And I, I really do think we can do great things, but there's still this one last step in this five dysfunctions of a team.
So my, what is this? The last and final step of great teamwork. Well, similar to what you were just saying, it all ladders up into a final product or moment or outcome, or maybe result. So this final clip we're going to hear from Patrick. Lencioni's five trying as stages of the triangle is all around.
Staying focused on the project performance. You see, behaviors always proceed results. And for those of you that like quantifiable things cause your engineers, this is one of those moments where you go deep down inside. I go to meetings with this person all the time. They're never, they talk all the time during the meetings.
They [00:49:00] never listen. I have to tell somebody has to tell them that. Hmm. Who can I pay to tell them that. Right. Or every time I'm with this person, they haven't prepared. They find a way to get it done, but it's always a crap show at the, at the end of it. There's a lot of stress. That's not the right behavior.
We have to have the courage as leaders to love them enough to say your behavior needs to change because the behaviors will ultimately lead to results. And I swear, there's leaders out there that would prefer to wait for the results to tank so they can have an objective conversation rather than having a more difficult conversation upfront about their behaviors, but great teams.
Hold each other accountable for their behaviors and they do it because the leader's willing to do it too. Okay. Now the last, the last thing, and I'm not going to go into a lot of detail on this because we have something else to cover is all of this ends up in results. See teamwork. Isn't like, Hey, do you have, do you like your team?
Oh, we're a great team. Do you guys ever succeed or hit your goals? I'll never, but we're a great team. No, you're a crappy team [00:50:00] that likes to hang out together. Right? It all comes down to results, but here's the thing. It's the result of the collective. See, everybody goes well, everybody's result-oriented no, no, some people are results.
Aren't our department for their status, for their budget, for their part of the business. But we have to hold people accountable, not for what just they're doing, but for what it does for the whole team C team number one has to be the team, not the team I manage. So if you're the head of marketing at this company, and I say to you, what's your number one team?
And I pumped you with a little truth serum or bourbon, and you go, let me tell you, Pat, I care about the executive team I do, but let me understand. Let me tell you that I actually manage the marketing department. I hired all those people. I sit near them. I love marketing. They would be my number one team.
The executive team that I'm on would be a close second. No, you're the number one team. All of us have to be on as the team work on only Jennifer here at PagerDuty has the benefit of saying I don't have to choose. Right. [00:51:00] Everybody else has to say, I have to be a good team member, even over being a good team leader.
And that's okay. Because the good news is the people on your team in marketing or whatever department you're in. They want nothing more than you guys to make this number one team. So they don't have to fight bloody unwinnable battles with other departments. Okay. So what is this all about? We have to trust each other.
We got to be vulnerable buck naked. We do that so we can have great arguments without fear. We do that. So we can make decisions that people actually are willing to buy into because they've been heard that gives them the courage to hold each other accountable for behaviors and results without fear. And that leads to the collective good of the team rather than us citizens.
Ooh boy. Did he have some espresso there? Mark? Was he like wrapping up? Here's my book in 22 seconds. Yeah, he, that was a good, uh, a good summation. Wasn't it? I mean, yeah, they, they, the result of the moonshots. Show, uh, Patrick, uh, kind of summed up his triangle right then and there. [00:52:00] Right. He did a very, very good job.
And I think if you want to reverse, uh, this whole cycle and reverse engineer it, if you will, if you feel like you're working in a team with good talented individuals, But they're not quite getting the results you think they're capable of. Then you can actually go through what he just said in that clip and sort of find where it is.
So. If they're not getting the results, then they're probably looking maybe a bit more at their individual goals rather than the team goals. And I think this is really interesting, like people really signing up for the team, the project goals, or the company goes the business goals. Like you're got to sign up for.
The collective goal, and I think that's really powerful. And then if you go belief that you'll see that there's accountability, commitment, [00:53:00] conflict, and trust are all these ingredients that are almost like little leavers that we have, that we can fine tune that we can optimize in order to get the results.
And that's the power of what Lensioni has shared with us today is that you can really. Break it down. Well, no matter what kind of business you're in results, accountability, commitment, conflict, trust, break it down into those five and somewhere, somewhere in there, you will find an opportunity to do things better or what a fantastic little breakdown from, from Patrick on teamwork.
Uh, you know, I'm reminding Mike myself of. You know, when we kicked off the episode today, it's not always just about your career, the team, or those around you, whether it's on the page or in the family unit. You know, I feel like all five of these steps and [00:54:00] these lessons can be applied anywhere in our lives.
I think, I think it's really true. And look, if you want to be selfish about it, if you want your career to go great, then. Actually focus on the team goals, not your own goals. So in order to reach your own goal, best focused on the teams go up because Hey, it'd be successful team, the project, whatever it's really it's really that, uh, straight so that interrelated, but Mark, just think we've been going deep, deep, deep into all of this.
Um, and. What's really interesting is how often did businesses really discuss train, enhance the way they work as a team? How often are as you're you think about all of this, how often in your career have you talked about trust, conflict, commitment, accountability, results, and how to do them better? Like. It [00:55:00] doesn't happen very much.
Does it, it gets caught up in, you get caught up in business as usual. Yeah. Caught up in getting back on Slack, responding to emails thing, right? The most immediate deliverable. And you kind of forget about maximizing or nurturing those relationships and those connections and that connective tissue between you and your team.
Um, in the short term, which then damages you in the lungs, it's like not warming up your muscles before you work out. You know, if you don't give the connective tissue, I E your teamwork and enough attention and work. I think what happens in the end, after long-term you either lose colleagues because they want to quit, or you lose projects because the team's not performing at the highest level.
And. That damages your business. It's all about starting. I think you said it earlier. Mike [00:56:00] teamwork is the DNA of a successful business. I, I totally, I totally agree. And what I, what I've enjoyed talking about here is really getting into the five, um, these five very specific foundational, um, Um, if you will elements, components that build up better teamwork.
And I walk out of there feeling way more clear. It's like, I've gone back to the source and you know, reclarify reconfirmed the amount of effort we need to put into these things. It's not just about making sure. The design is right. The code is right. Or whatever it is that you do beyond the craft is team beyond the expertise is team beyond the skills.
The things that we do [00:57:00] there is the, how you do it, which is all about teamwork. And I think we've had a real treat today and what's so great. Mark, is that the next show we're going to focus on the individual characteristics. Of what it takes to be a great team player. We are, we're going to be digging into Patrick Lencioni's, um, additional book, the ideal team player.
Another one that I can't wait to get into Mike. Mm. And he's got, he's got a great formula around humility, be hungry, be smart, and really optimizing the combination of all of those three. I mean, that is, it's just going to be, uh, another phase of, uh, teamwork of understanding, not only what we do. But how we do it.
Cool. So what's your big takeout from, from this first of two books that we're going to study from Patrick Lensioni? I think it's the, the challenge from Patrick to [00:58:00] celebrate those difficult conversations and create conflict norms that encourage people to have those conversations. You know, if you're.
Festering on a point of view that you don't maybe don't have the confidence to share, or, you know, you're resenting someone or something it's pretty poisonous. Right? You've got to get that out of the system and by having the structure and the foundation around you in a team to go and do that, that's something I want to try and create.
That's working. It's interesting. What you've said is like, you're almost saying like, get out of your own head and, and just talk, right? Yeah. You know, it all starts with having right abilities and skills in order to communicate efficiently, you know, we've, we've brought it up a couple of times in this episode without being maybe [00:59:00] taught or without thinking about how.
We communicate and work together as a team. It's never going to be that efficient because you're going to have to go through all of the mistakes. Instead, if you focus on creating a structure that is really, really celebrated from day one that people trust in and that they feel comfortable with working together and collaborating.
I think you're on to a, you're onto a, a guaranteed path of. I agree. I agree. And what, what a, what a great way to start, uh, this series, this teamwork series here, uh, the moonshots podcast on, uh, episode 101 no less. So, Mark, thank you to you. Are you ready to go and have some conflict with your colleagues? Uh, I, uh, I'm going to go in, uh, I'm going to go and think about what I could give feedback on now.
There you go. There you go. That sounds like a good stuff. Well, [01:00:00] thanks again, Mark. And thank you to you. All of our listeners for sharing with us, this journey in learning out loud here on the moonshots podcast, and today has been a rip roaring adventure through the world of teamwork. We've got plenty, more episodes to come on this topic, but today we really studied Patrick Lensioni and the five dysfunctions of the team.
So I hope. But all of you now leave with some skills, some tips, some tricks, or just plain old inspiration on how to build the trust, how to have those tough conversations, maybe a conflict or two. So you can really start to build clarity and commitment. About the things that you want to do, because if you do that, you can have a clear plan and make yourself and your teammates accountable too.
And I can tell you what if you've done those first four things, Patrick Lencioni will tell you there's a very good chance that you're going to get the results that you're looking for. [01:01:00] And I hope you're getting all the results you're looking for here. We're on the moonshots podcast. As you design build, create teams.
Businesses families, you name it, whatever you're trying to do, we hope it's better with the moonshots podcast. That's a wrap.