What Is a Good Church Member? With Pastor Chris Parrish

Show Notes

In this episode of Wisdom for the Wilderness, Pastors Zack and Josh sit down with special guest Chris Parrish, pastor of Buck Run Baptist Church and their sending church leader. Drawing from years of pastoral experience and deep friendship, they explore one of the most practical and biblical questions in church life: What makes a good church member?

They begin with why meaningful, formal church membership is thoroughly biblical—not a country club, but a covenant community modeled after the body of Christ in 1 Corinthians. Chris and the hosts unpack the real difference between simply attending church and fully committing as a member, including accountability, mutual belonging, and the ability to live out the New Testament’s “one another” commands.

Chris shares heartfelt insights on the marks of faithful members he’s seen at Buck Run:

• Loving Jesus first and foremost
• Wholeheartedly singing in worship (especially the men!)
• Eagerly obeying what they know from God’s Word
• Being thoughtfully opinionated while approaching leadership with humility and trust
• Committing to prayer for pastors and the church
• Actively caring for one another and bearing burdens
• Sharing the gospel and inviting others in
• Extending grace to less mature believers in the family of God

Filled with encouragement, pastoral wisdom, real-life stories, and even a few light-hearted moments, this conversation will challenge listeners to move beyond consumerism and embrace the joy of wholehearted belonging to the body of Christ.

Whether you’re a longtime member, considering membership, or a church leader, this episode offers rich biblical truth and practical application for healthier, more vibrant local churches.

Creators and Guests

JH

Host

Josh Hutchens

What is Wisdom for the Wilderness?

Join Dr. Josh Hutchens, director of Gateway Seminary's Rocky Mountain Campus and pastor at Overland Church in Fort Collins, Colorado, as he explores spiritual faithfulness amid life's challenges and suffering. Through discussions on theological questions and inspiring stories, Wisdom for the Wilderness offers guidance and hope for navigating the complexities of faith in a broken world.

speaker-0: Welcome to Wisdom for the Wilderness, a weekly podcast by the pastors of Overland Church where we talk about the Bible, theology, practical things in life. And today we have joining with us Chris Parrish, the pastor of Buckrun Baptist Church. Chris is our Sending Church pastor. Chris and I worked together ⁓ for a couple of years before I came out to ⁓ plant Overland. ⁓ We're great friends and he's a dear brother. love this man and super have him super glad to have him with us today. Now, Chris pastors one of the best churches in the world. Like you just own it, right? And the members of Buck Run are just incredible people. You know,

speaker-1: It is fantastic. It's what makes Buck Run.

speaker-0: You know, you would think they had a pastor and Dr. Herschel was there 20 years and, you know, he leaves and the church continues to grow and it still the same church. With or without Herschel was still the same church. And the reality was it was a great church before Herschel got there. He would, he would tell you that. So, you know, our listeners, most everybody who listens to this podcast is a church member. So, The question that I came up with today for you, Chris, is what makes a good church member? You get to pastor some incredible church members. I do too, by the way. Josh does too. Overland people, you guys are fantastic. You're great church, don't take any offense to this, but you're no Buck Run yet. I mean, you're no Buck Run yet. You're awesome, but you're not there yet. ⁓

speaker-2: Can I just say the first step in being a good church member is actually to be a church member. So, we have some folks out there that need to schedule their membership interviews and get on it.

speaker-0: Yeah. It's a big thing for us. They act like members, they serve like members, they give like members.

speaker-2: Just haven't gotten there across the finish line.

speaker-0: Yeah, so as we address real quick what makes a good church member, let's just ask a few questions and Josh, I'd love for you to weigh in on this. Does the Bible teach meaningful church membership? Is this something that you should do or is it optional? What is it?

speaker-2: Yeah, so, you know, a lot of people think, well, that's like country club, Sam's club, like that's what membership means when we talk about it. And if that's what you're defining membership as, of course it's not biblical. But that's not the way the Bible talks about it. And the analogy in 1 Corinthians is of one body with many parts or many members. And so, ⁓ that's where we get the term membership. The idea of membership is we are a unified body, and we are each part of it, and we each have a role to play with our gifting in the body. And so, you know, that can't just be something that's done just kind of informally. People come and go, like, as they want, you know, nobody keeps track of it, because if you're a body and you're constituted, your finger gets cut off. That needs to hurt. Yeah. And so, behind this is the concept of the church is a covenant community, ⁓ and it's a community that we have come together in a chosen covenant relationship with one another to uphold the Word of God. And so, That's why we have a church covenant. That's the final step of membership, is to sign the church covenant, and there's precedent ⁓ biblically for that. We preached through Nehemiah a few ⁓ months ago, in Nehemiah they make a covenant. But it's not really a new covenant, it's a covenant to keep the old covenant. And so, that's what we do as a local body, is we make a church covenant that is intended to keep the new covenant in our ⁓ local specific context, and ⁓ to bind us together as a family. That's one of the images of the church, as like a marriage, that's another image, ⁓ as a body. And so, ⁓ it's absolutely biblical, and you should do it, and you'll be blessed by being a formal member of a church.

speaker-0: So what's the real difference between attending a church and being a formal member of a church? Like if you're saying, hey, I'm going to show up, I'm going to serve, I'm going to give, ⁓ but I don't want to sign on the dotted line. What do think the real difference is?

speaker-2: I mean, Chris, do you want to hit that a little bit?

speaker-1: Like, what's the difference between, like, going to coffee with somebody and marrying them? You know, like, there is commitment, there's accountability, there's mutual giving. There is a, ⁓ I am not just floating out in the ether by myself. I belong to you and you belong to me. I think about even what you said, so much of the commands in the New Testament.

speaker-0: commitment.

speaker-1: don't make sense if you don't have an idea of like formal, meaningful membership. How are you to submit to elders if you don't have that? How are you to carry out all the one another's if you're not doing that in a body? How do you make sense of like church discipline? If there is no real meaningful membership, ⁓ how do you, Peter says, we're the shepherd, the flock of God that is among us. How do we do that unless we know who that flock is? And so there is a real sense of like, membership is a true belonging both ways. I belong to you, you belong to me in the way that we recognize that commitment in marriage. that's a it's a meaningful step that even unbelievers see as meaningful. That it matters, and the same thing would be true in the church. It matters for me to formally say you are my keeper and I'm yours. I'm giving you permission to care for me and to love me and to rebuke me and correct me and do all the things, all the one another's in the New Testament. I'm inviting you into my life in a formal way.

speaker-0: One of the things I, a ⁓ problem I see in modern church culture is that people will just get mad and something won't go their way at church and they'll just like try to silently leave the church. And it's like, would you silently leave your wedding if when something doesn't go right? Or wouldn't you just like in the right way want to reconcile with your wife and bring the concern to your spouse? There's so many times I've watched people leave churches with a concern that if they would have just gone to the pastor, going to somebody and said, Hey, here's a concern I have. Let's talk through this. That oftentimes, there's oftentimes the pastor would go, you're right. I'm glad you brought this to the table. This is something that needs to be changed. Or they might go, well, here's something you don't know. Here's another piece of information that would change the way you look at this. Here's the other thing to consider. And rather they just, they jump, they, they jump ship because they're not committed. Cause you can sign your name on a piece of paper or not sign your name on a piece of paper. There has to be a level of commitment, right? You're committed to the, to the body and they go to the next church and they stay there two or three years and the same thing happens and they jump and they go do the same thing. And so there's a level of commitment that brings a level of ownership that goes, no, that's my church. And when things aren't going well at my church,

speaker-2: Yeah.

speaker-0: I'm going to get my hand, I'm going to roll up my sleeve and get my hands dirty and help figure it out. And so, you know, I think that is one of the things that makes Buck Run so special. They weren't there because of, you know, Bob Jackson. Now, some people were and they left. They weren't there because of Herschel York and very few people left when Herschel left because Herschel was there. And they're not there for you. They're there because they're part of the church. And so it really matters. So Chris. Kind of jumping in on this question with you. How are you a good, assuming you're committed, how are you good church member?

speaker-1: Yeah, and when you asked me this question, I wrote down a bunch of thoughts, none in a particular order, then kind of went back and looked at them and thought, man, how would I order these? I think I had even in my mind just people that I love at Buckrun who I've got to serve with now for 11 years. ⁓ I think at the base... Maybe the thing I would put number one is that more than anything else, they love the Lord first. They love us, they love Book Run, they love their Baptist convictions, they love missions, they love all sorts of things. But the love of the Lord is the primary first driver, which then fuels all the other loves. And I think often it is really easy. People love the church first, or they love this particular ministry, or this particular leader or person or thing, which none of those things often are not in and of themselves wrong, but they often, when those loves are disordered, you get problems down the line. And when I think of the Buckram numbers that I love to serve with, I they love Jesus first. ⁓ And they love us and they love me or Herschel or Bob Jackson or any number of things, but that love is compelled and controlled first by a true, genuine, deep, abiding love first for Jesus. ⁓ That's not true everywhere. And it can be really easy to mistake love for other things for love of Jesus. I think first just having a real love for the Lord matters.

speaker-0: Yeah, amen to that. think about in worship, you turn around sometimes and you'll see a church member passionately just worshiping and singing, and it does the pastor's heart so good to hear your church members talk about the Lord and talk about the things when you can tell like in their voice there's a love for the Lord.

speaker-2: I know as a pastor of a more traditional church, there were times that I knew people who I think they really had a relationship with the Lord, but like you're saying, they loved Grandpa's church. and you as a pastor would be trying to lead them in order to serve Christ and make sacrifices for Christ, and you could see it so clearly, but for whatever reason, that felt like a ⁓ threat to grandpa's church. And so, at the end of the day, what did they love more? Did they love grandpa's church or did they love Jesus more?

speaker-0: So stylistically, they loved a certain tradition or expression of the church. They held onto that nostalgia more than they loved the Lord. That's good. All right. So what do you got next? They loved the Lord.

speaker-1: So, use hit on it. And so I'm not giving these in order. ⁓ But I love to see our true people sing. ⁓ If people sit in either in sermons or classes, I probably go on this rant ⁓ probably once a month of just really encouraging our folks to sing, especially our men. ⁓ I can watch at the end when we have our song in response, if I look at a family and dad isn't singing, then the boys in his family are not singing. Because if dad doesn't have to, then I don't. ⁓ And I loved, one, I think it's an ⁓ expression of worship that is commanded of us. We are a singing people. And it says something about our heart and humility before the Lord. And it is, we do this in obedience for the glory of God and for the good of each other. We need to hear. each other sing. And so it warms my heart when I see our church people, our members, wholeheartedly to the Lord. Because it is an expression of their own deep devotion to the Lord and their love for one another. I can think about when we're in worship, I am encouraged by the voices of the other people around me. It does something for my soul to hear the people of God sing. And I think there was a time in which we as just a larger body, not just buck run, we're better at that. And largely for lots of reasons, I'm not really sure all of them.

speaker-0: ⁓ We were taught to sing in school. By the way, when we're singing, I want you to sing passionately, but try to sing on key, try to sing on rhythm, don't try to sing so loud that you're making it about you that everyone else can hear you, but you're singing together in harmony. That's one of the beautiful pictures of the church. We're singing this chorus. together this is all our declaration that we really believe and we want to do it beautifully.

speaker-2: I remember being in youth group and being instructed, know, don't worry about the people around you, just worship, you know, it's an audience of one. And there's some truth to that. Like, you don't, you shouldn't be self-conscious. But, ⁓ you know, what you're saying is right out of Ephesians and Colossians that when we sing, we're not just singing to God, we are singing to one another. And we're admonishing one another with these songs. And so, ⁓

speaker-0: There's a vertical and a horizontal aspect of worship that is absolutely beautiful.

speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, and if you refrain, then you are taking something away from your brothers and sisters in Christ that God wants you to offer them.

speaker-0: Yep.

speaker-1: It is meaningful for you can look around the room and see, well, this person has cancer and yet they're singing because of the hope of resurrection. And this person, their kids are in a mess or their marriage is difficult. Whatever, you can look around and see in the midst of all these regular sorrows and joys that we're all, it is a reminder we're all singing to the same resurrected Christ. And that if that person who's dying is singing of joy. And okay, maybe I had a bad week, but it is a reminder to my own soul, yes, Christ is raised and it does something for the body. So I love to hear our people sing.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's good. That's good word. All right, what's next?

speaker-1: Okay, this one, ⁓ I think about we have a ministry partner in Panama and he talks about this one a lot and it's something that I think is really important. I've grown to love in people is I love when church members ⁓ obey what they know. That as they grow and learn more about the Word of God and know to love Jesus more, they obey what they know. And so I think it can be very easy. You have people who know a lot. but aren't actually walking that out. ⁓ I, man, give me the guy all day long who maybe doesn't know much, he's growing, but what he knows, he's eager to obey. He is eager to walk in faithfulness. ⁓ And it isn't always gonna be perfect and it's stumbling and struggling, but as he grows, I want that guy all day long, then the guy who could answer every test question, but doesn't really walk in faithfulness, that knows the right answers, but doesn't live it out. Give me the guy who, man, doesn't know up from down yet and is just learning, but he's eager to obey what he hears. Whenever he understands the word, his response is, okay, I'm going to do that. ⁓ Man, I love that.

speaker-2: Yeah. I was in a conversation with some pastors in a message group, and somebody brought up a certain church, and somebody else was like, I wouldn't recommend that church, and they were like, why? And the answer was, well, there's a lot of liberal people in that church. But I knew that the reason there's a lot of liberal people in that church is because that church is actually reaching people, and those people are on a journey, and they don't have it all figured out, but they are learning the Word and they are seeking to obey the Word, and so I would much rather go to that church where they're actually reaching people and discipling people than the guy who wants to have his holy huddle with everybody who's just like him, and there's nobody who's different, nobody who's starting out on their walk with Christ.

speaker-0: Right, absolutely, amen. I love that.

speaker-1: years ago, this was before I was at Buckgrin, had heard a church member come to me at the end of service and say, hey, pastors, we want you know, we thought we should tell you first, we are divorcing. We know the Bible says if you're not happy in marriage that you should divorce. And we just felt like we should let you know. so was like, whoa, okay, let's, let's.

speaker-2: The Bible says if you're not happy, you should divorce.

speaker-1: That's what they said. And so I wanted to catch that. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay, well, let's go back. And so I asked them some clarifying questions and sort of got through and like, just said, hey, so no, the Bible doesn't say that. And so I didn't lay out some of the, here's what the Bible does say. And they were like, yeah, well, you don't meet any of those. And so they were like, so what are you, what you're saying is we did, we cannot like divorce and think they're walking with the Lord. I was like, yeah, that's, that is what I'm saying. And they said, if that's what the Bible says, that's what we'll do. gotta help us. And like now, years later, they're still together and have served in messiness of other people's marriages. You could look at that from the outside and say, man, these people didn't know what in the world. Who says that? Who says the... Of course, that's so wrong. But their heart was, okay, that's what the Bible says. That's what I'll do. And that's the heart of a disciple. ⁓ That's true for all of us. We're still growing and learning. Give me the person whose reflex is, and if that's what God says, that's what I want to do. ⁓ Even as they're learning what that looks like, ⁓ I'd pastor that person. I'd rather work with that person than with a guy who can answer the right questions, ⁓ but whose heart is not ⁓ geared towards obedience.

speaker-0: And that's good. That's good.

speaker-2: I was counseling a couple just a few days ago, they have an array of issues. But at the foundation, they love Christ, and they are committed to their marriage. And so, at the end, after we've talked about all these things that are difficult to figure out, I just had to pause and look at them and say, you know, if you love Christ, you're committed to one another in marriage, it's going to be okay. You're going to figure this out. Like, you have the tools. and the foundation to figure it out. It's not going be easy, but it's going to be okay. And you just saw, like, the burden come off their shoulders when I told them that, that, you know, they could trust Christ, they could trust His love for them and their love for Christ, and ⁓ it was going to be okay.

speaker-1: think we're often so afraid of being legalists that we really soft pedal obedience. Jesus says, if you love me, you'll keep my words. that, I'm finishing John's gospel at our church right now, and I've just been struck by how often Jesus says, how do you know the people that know and love and follow me? They hear my voice and they listen and they obey. And I look for that in people that, it is sometimes they don't know everything, but what do they know and are they seeking to live in obedience? what they know. Do they want to follow the voice of Jesus? And it does it. It'll work out if you want to follow Jesus, if you'll listen and obey and settle what Jesus says goes. ⁓ That's what discipleship looks like.

speaker-0: Yeah, all right. Yeah, follow the Lord. Love the Lord, follow the Lord. Obey Him. All right, what do you got next?

speaker-1: Alright, this one is intentionally kind of a hot take. I would love for church members to be opinionated. By that, mean I want them to be engaged. I think that counterintuitively some people would think that pastors would prefer church members to be hands-off and like, oh, whatever.

speaker-0: Okay

speaker-1: you say it goes and then not really have opinions on things. That's actually incredibly frustrating as a pastor that when you're trying to cast vision or lead towards something and just to hear people say like, yeah, whatever, I don't really care. I would much rather have church members being shaped and formed by the word and have opinions, even if that leads to opinions that are different than mine, even if that leads to them saying, hey, pastor, have you thought about this or I see it this way. I mean, I'd rather, as long as those things come with humility and they come, the right way and the right spirit, I'd rather pastor and serve with a member who is working things out in their own soul and conscience and mind than the guy who just says, whatever, I don't really care. ⁓ Most of time.

speaker-0: I remember at Buck Run there was a lady, still there, she's quite up in age now, Brenda Brown, very sweet lady. But Brenda did the meals on Wednesday night and she ran the kitchen. And at the old Buck Run, at the old campus, in order to, she had a closet and she had a key to the closet. Herschel didn't have a key to the closet. Executive pastor didn't have a key. I didn't have a key to the closet. She had a key to the closet and she cared about that kitchen. And so like as a student pastor, like if I needed a big bowl, like a stainless steel bowl to put ice in, I'd have to call her. She'd come to the church and let me in the closet and get that bowl. And I remember that drove me nuts for a while. I mean, I love Brenda and our relationship was great. She's so sweet. But I mean, I just thought like, this is crazy. Well then, I remember several years into church planning, I just wish somebody cared about the kitchen. I wish I could give Brenda Brown a key to the kitchen so that Brenda Brown would care about the kitchen and have opinions about the kitchen and take ownership of the kitchen and like care enough to have an opinion. So you're totally right. You're totally right. So Don Keisel and Lauren Martin, like you got these people that now own the kitchen are doing it. For a long time, I just wanted somebody to want a key to the kitchen.

speaker-2: Absolutely. And just you note the right spirit. if you're a pastor and somebody's thinking through things and they want to discuss, this biblical? I mean, that's a blessing. As long as it's not coming in an argumentative way or an oppositional way, but, hey, let's discuss this. Help me figure it out. Help me see your point of view. You see my point of view. Then ⁓ what a blessing to have members like that.

speaker-0: Yeah, I would note for our people, and this is a cultural thing, not necessarily our church thing, people in the Mountain West are one, we're independent. Yeah. And I don't put our nose in other people's businesses, but to a level of suspicion. And so in that opinion, like, you know, it's helpful when you bring the benefit of the doubt to the table. Like you're not coming going, well, if pastor's just wrong, let's address it. Or this is just the wrong thing, the church. like, hey, let me let me.

speaker-2: Yeah.

speaker-0: truly figure out what's best here.

speaker-1: You develop trust and you grow closer with church members when you wrestle with these things together in a way that you want with the guy who just doesn't care and is like, right, cool, whatever, that's what you say. I would rather have somebody come in. ⁓ Hershel used to say all the time at Buckrun, I want you to trust that my heart is to honor and obey and glorify Jesus. And if you trust my heart, if you come and you disagree with me, as long you you trust my heart, I'm fine. Like, there is, if you trust me, and I really want to try to honor Jesus, then many times those conversations, even when they're not always easy or fun, they, when you go through that with people, you grow an intimacy in my own marriage. I love my wife and I desire to lead her well. I don't want her to not care about anything. I don't want just always for her to say, all right, cool, whatever. guess that's what you want. I want to know what she thinks and I want to hear her wisdom and I want to wrestle sometimes through you see it this way, I see it this way and you grow in those things. And I want the same with members. I think there's on their side, really on mine too, you have to approach it with humility and an open hand and know which things are thus say it to and which things are, I this is what I think and this is what I feel led to, or this is my preference and this why we're doing it this way. And I think it's helpful just for church growth and in relationships with individuals, with people as you pastor them through the years. When you go through things together you build trust.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's good. That's really good. All right, what's next for us? What you got?

speaker-1: ⁓ prayer. I have personally been convicted in this, maybe really in the last year. Just... ⁓ not as deep a commitment to prayer as I should have, both individually, but then just in our body. And I think about, I thinking about it this morning, what encourages me most. And it's great when people say, hey, that was a great sermon, or hey, this thing you did was helpful to me, or thanks for coming and seeing me in the hospital, or whatever. All those things are encouraging. But I think the thing that touches my soul at the most, deep level is when somebody says, hey, I just want you to know I'm praying for you. I pray for you every Sunday morning, or I pray for you every day. You're on my prayer list. And I have so many folks at Buck Run who stop me in the hallway on Sunday mornings or Wednesdays or wherever, or call me or email me. And that's their encouragement. Hey, I just want you to know I love you and I'm praying for you. And that, it means so much to me. And church members that realize the deep dependence we have on the Lord and that realize... I said this in a sermon just last week, Jesus meets the resurrected Christ meets with the disciples in the Sea of Galilee, this sort of one last revelation in John's gospel. They're expert fishermen and they catch nothing all night. Jesus shows up and again gives them this miraculous catch of fish. And it is Jesus in some sense saying to them, you can't even do the thing that you think you can do without me. The thing that you do your best. You can't do without me. And as a pastor, I know that intellectually and it can be so easy to lose sight of that and to not pour our hearts out before the Lord in prayer. And I'm so thankful for saints in our body who do. They are praying because they really do believe nothing will happen Sunday without the Lord. And so, pastor, I'm praying for you. I'm praying for you as you preach. I'm praying for you as you study. I'm praying for your family. That's convicting to me and I'm thinking through even just pastorally. And how do we have a deeper heart for prayer and recognize that? But I would I would rather hear pastor I'm praying for you that yeah Hey, that was a great sermon. This thing was helpful. I'm thankful for those members

speaker-0: We've got a church member, Ray Crawford. Ray, when he's driving down the road and he sees my truck or something at the church, he'll whip in, especially if it's my truck, everybody's gonna he'll whip in, he'll walk in, he'll find me and say, pastor, I'm gonna pray for you. And he'll throw his arm on me and he'll pray for me. He'll say, you know, and encourage me. And he'll turn around and say, well, gotta go, pastor. And he'll leave, and I love it. You know, it fills my cup up. So that's well, hey, You know, I harp on prayer a lot on this podcast. I'm going to tell you some more about it. ⁓ that is just super encouraged. ⁓ talking to a church, the Heights church in downtown, downtown Denver, ⁓ two years ago, they were like five to 600 people and they had a year emphasis on prayer. They pray, they had these like different prayer times throughout the week that people can show up and pray and they do. And they were, I mean, they, they're a. What a nine-year-old church, think is what I was told the other day. They're a nine-year-old church. ⁓ Year seven, right where we are, there are five to 600 people. And now at year nine at Easter, they just had 4,000 people at Easter. They're running 2,000 people per week. They're seeing people baptized left and right. And what was the change? They were praying. Come on, man. All right, what you got?

speaker-2: ⁓ You

speaker-1: ⁓ The next one would be ⁓ members who intentionally look to be in other people's lives. In all the ways that takes. Sometimes that's care, sometimes that's looking for needs and cooking a meal or caring for kids if somebody's sick. But that is sometimes like the, I care enough about you that I'm noticing your life and your marriage and I'm noticing when you're not there and I'm... It can be easy to do the fun things of like, you're sick. I'm going to bring you a meal. It can be a lot harder sometimes for members to say, hey, I've not seen you for a month. I love you enough that I'm going to call you and see, are you okay, man? What's going on? Or there are troubling sin patterns in your life. I, it warms my soul to see members see that not as a pastor's job, but that the body cares for the body. The pastors, we equip the members for the work of the ministry, that the way that the church functions is by members taking ⁓ part in each other's lives. That when you become a member, we talked about this a little earlier, you are saying to the rest of the body, you have a right to ask me about my life. I'm giving you permission to speak into my life in all the encouraging ways and comforting ways and also with rebuke and call to repentance and all those things. As a pastor, it makes my job so much easier when I'm not the only one doing that. When even when really tough things are happening in people's lives that by the time he gets to the pastors, it's helpful to know, man, these, Matthew 18's been happening. People have been individually pleading with these people for repentance. ⁓ So much happens in the care of people's lives at Buck Run that isn't driven by pastors. I'm often finding out of all of these sweet sacrificial things that people are doing for other members. not because anybody asked them to or because they have a formal job that's their job they have to do but because they're actively looking and saying what are the needs that are around me and how can I give them what the Lord has given me? How can I step into that? ⁓ As opposed to a very I come to church to get and what can I get in the sermon? What can I get from the ministries? What can I get from other people? And then every now and then if I'm asked I might if it's not that inconvenient for me I might step into a need, which is the exact opposite of I'm not here to get, I'm here to pour out my life. And so what can I give to people? You know, like our kids are little and we often talk to them about like how to be a good friend or how to get good friends. I'm like, well, you be a good friend. And how do you, how do you get cared for well in the body? I think it first is you seek to care for other people well. And then it happens. That's, that's how it's designed. You're cared for as you pour out your life. sacrificially for the people that are around you, that's how the Lord cares for you through the body. And so, members that are doing things that I never know about, and nobody's asked them, and honestly, most of that happens, and the pastors are never aware of it, stuff happens, and I find out about sometimes years later, and I didn't know that happened. And I'm blown away by the way our members care for each other.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-2: do that, you have to get connected. You can't just be someone who comes in, you know, right at 10 o'clock or whenever the service starts, and then as soon as the pastor says, amen, you jet out. You have to be connected with people in order to see those needs, meet those needs. For us, you know, that's happening through groups. That's what, you know, groups is supposed to do is connect people with one another, and we see these types of things happening in community groups and Bible studies. ⁓ But, you you I know sometimes there's that person who is going through some sort of life difficulty, and then they get frustrated that nobody knows, and nobody steps up to serve. But then you look at it objectively, and it's because you've never really connected at the church. Nobody had a clue. They would love to serve you, but nobody had a clue because nobody is in your life in order to know what you're going through.

speaker-0: ⁓ What Herschel always say, I'm a lot of things, but I'm not a mind reader. The one thing I for sure can't do is read your mind. So if I don't know, how can we help if we don't know?

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. For us, it's groups as well. ⁓ we just, I think about Herschel, you say this all the time, you cannot obey the one another unless you're in community. I cannot. I'm commanded by the New Testament as a member of the body to bear one another's burdens. That's not a do that if it's convenient and your burdens are light. Maybe sometimes bear. It's a command. You are to bear one another's burdens and you cannot do that unless you're in proximity. so that you're aware of the burdens that you naturally are knowing here's the things that are going on that you're able to look into see in people's lives and ⁓ it is it's a very consumer world and it's everywhere else people go to get and it can be really tempting to do that at church and I think the healthiest members are those that aren't there to get first and foremost but like how do I pour out my life and then when you do that I just the Lord takes care of you and and you develop relationships and you are cared for as well

speaker-0: Yeah, that's good. That's good. What do you got next?

speaker-1: ⁓ Church members who actively share their faith, ⁓ who are looking for opportunities. ⁓ Sometimes that is, man, this person is super evangelistic. And I know you remember, I referenced him in a sermon, ⁓ Strom Taylor. ⁓ yeah. Who lost countless jobs because his boss kept telling him you can't share the gospel and he would share the gospel and get fired and say, I can always get another job. And he did. ⁓

speaker-0: Come on. Is there the day he died?

speaker-1: So there are some members that are just really gifted and geared that way. And then there are some members who they're trying, but sometimes it's every week they show up and they got somebody else with them. ⁓ And I'll take that man out. Like I want our members actively explicitly sharing the gospel, but also I'm totally, I'm totally pleased with them saying, I've been trying to share the gospel, but I'm just bringing this guy with me. I'm bringing him to church or bringing him to community group. ⁓ I pastored a guy before Buck Run who is now with the Lord. Lord radically saved him. His life was transformed. He said this before, and he didn't, he wasn't reading Grudem. There were a lot of things he didn't understand theologically. ⁓ He believed a lot more than he could articulate, but every week, man, he brought somebody to church. He was a truck driver. Every week he'd tell me, hey, I was in line this week at a truck stop in Arkansas, and I shared the gospel with guy in front of me. And just everywhere he went, he said what he knew, and... There are people that came to faith through him that are walking with the Lord now and will be with Jesus for eternity because the Lord used him. And so, man, again, it goes to this desire to pour myself out, people that don't see church merely as this thing that I do. But there are lost people that are, that I know that are in my life that are going to die and go to hell. And I want to plead with them to trust Jesus. And I'm going to, and even if I maybe can't quite get there to share the gospel with them explicitly, and I'm there haltingly and struggling trying to figure out how to do that. At the very least, they're saying, hey, would you come to church with me on Sunday? Would you come to my community group? I'll take that. I'll take that all day long.

speaker-2: Both of those are when the go and tell and the come and see. We'll take either one.

speaker-0: You know, our college students have been challenged this semester to share the gospel with 1 % of the population of CSU's campus. And so that's around 350 gospel conversations. you know, they've got, when they come in to worship on Tuesday nights, they've got this container that's got names of it, of all the people they're sharing the gospel. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. And I watch them do it. And man, it challenges me, it challenges our church. It's beautiful thing. All right, any closing thoughts that you have on, like, one last thing you would say this is what a good church member does?

speaker-1: I think good church members are really gracious with bad church members. ⁓ yeah. Meaning, you mentioned this at the very beginning, ⁓ the church is a family. We are a body. And so that means we have some really mature people who know and love and follow Jesus and have been walking with him a long time. And you have some people who just trusted Jesus and they're figuring out that means. And you have some people that I think are genuine believers and have are real followers, are they're still babies in the faith and they're not maybe even as spiritually mature as they should be. And there's a temptation pastorally to think, man, I just want just give me all the good members. Give me all the people who are super mature and are walking with Jesus. ⁓ Those are easy to work with, but that's not how family is. That a family has people at every stage of maturity and the good members are the ones who are taking an active ⁓ role in the lives of people who maybe aren't as mature as them and they're not treating them as less than they're trying to find ways to pour into them and to pray for them and to care for them and to help them grow and to walk with Jesus. ⁓ And they drag some of those members who aren't as mature as they should be along as they're pushed by seeing the faith of other people. And so ⁓ I'm thankful for the ways that our really mature believers come alongside our maybe believers who for lots of reasons, aren't as mature as they are. And that serves a great purpose in the body. 1 Corinthians 13, the great love chapter is right after this. This is who you are as a body. It's not romantic love. I mean, it certainly has a lot of application to romantic love. It is Paul saying, each are members in the body. And then he has this whole chapter on, you're not gonna survive in the body and function unless you have this really Christ-like. self-sacrificial love that is more important than what you know, it's more important than your giftings. It is the only thing. All your gifts are going to go away, but your love for one another is going to remain. And that love is there in your mature believers and the way they love for you. They love your members who aren't using their giftings or aren't walking with the Lord in the way they should be or aren't quite as mature. That love covers a multitude of sins. It is part of the beauty of the body. We're not all, we're all, we're messy and we're not all buttoned up and all where we should be. And there's a beauty in that. ⁓

speaker-0: When you say that, yesterday you said to me, hey, you know who's doing really well. And you told me a ⁓ couple names of people in this family that are doing really well. And as you said that, I rewinded back to like when they first years ago showed up at Buckrun, they were a mess. And they were not easy to have at church. There were constant problems at church because of this family. mean, they were a mess. And without the church, they'd have been a bigger mess, right? And the Lord saved and the Lord sanctified and the Lord is using them now this many years later as a very great part in a very healthy function of the church. And if we would have just said, get your act together or get out, they wouldn't be around. So praise God. That's a great word, Chris. Well, we always like to just a quick parting word of wisdom. You go first and we'll come around.

speaker-2: Well, my final word of wisdom is just why wouldn't you want to be a church member? I mean, listen to everything we've said, and I just think it just fills my heart to want to be a part of a body. And so if you're not a church member, just think through these things and you'll want to be a part of it. It's such a blessing.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think in the same vein I'd say you can't follow Jesus the way that he calls you to without the body. ⁓ That the church is not ⁓ an optional piece of, man, it will really help you be a better Christian. It is part of how Jesus has called you. He has called you to a body. And so if the thought is, I can do this well, and maybe I'll do it better with the church, no, you will not do it without the church. It is, you need the body in all of its many facets. with its strength and weaknesses and all its beauty. Jesus in all of his wisdom ordained that we as believers would be in his body with all of our struggles and sorrows and joys all mixed in together. That you cannot really follow Jesus in a meaningful way without the

speaker-0: Here's mine. You're not a church member one hour a week. You are a church member 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And that's the part of the body. And so get out of your thinking, like, how am I going to love on people when I go to church, but how am I going to love on the body? Period. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us for Wisdom for the Wilderness. If you have any questions, can email us at wisdom at overlandchurch.org. We love to answer our people's questions. Hey, and until next time, go and be blessed.