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The Wellness Creator Podcast is your go-to source for expert insights and actionable tips in the evolving world of health, wellness, and spiritual-based business. Join us as we explore proven online growth strategies, chat about current trends, and interview fellow wellness creators who’ve managed to turn passion into profit by helping people live better, healthier lives.
Jeni (00:00)
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Creator Podcast. In this episode, we're gonna have another variety show where we are going to discuss kind of what's hot and trending in the world of tech and online business as it relates to you as a wellness creator.
Marvelous (00:15)
First up, there is a big change coming tomorrow, which is July 10th at the time of this recording. So July 10th, 2025, Google is now going to index your Instagram content, which is kind of a big deal. I know most of our clients, most of our audience are on Instagram. And Google for a long time has indexed ⁓ YouTube and TikTok.
but for whatever reason, Metta wouldn't allow it. So they're a little bit behind. starting tomorrow, Google is now allowing, or Metta is now allowing Google to show your Instagram content. That includes posts, ⁓ reels, and your carousels.
Jeni (00:59)
Sandy, is this, for our listeners, is this change retroactive so it will go back historically through your account or only moving forward?
Marvelous (01:06)
You know what? That is so funny because I was preparing a thing of notes in front of me and that was one of the questions I was like, I wonder and I meant to ask and I will ask and I'll find that out right now, but I didn't get the answer, but let's do it.
Jeni (01:18)
Yeah, I
was wondering that. imagine, since those are websites, essentially your Instagram page, your Instagram feed, that it's going to index past content, because it would be weird if it didn't. But.
Marvelous (01:32)
Yeah,
I'm going to give you the answer in two seconds. Yes, retroactive to a point. So it can crawl older Instagram posts if the post is public, ⁓ if the profile is like crawlable, like not private, ⁓ if there's text data that it can work with, like captions, hashtags, and onscreen text, but it's not fully guaranteed.
Jeni (01:55)
Yeah, makes sense.
So I think, mean, obviously in the context of you as a business, most of you in our industry, including us, have historically at least had an Instagram account. And so that's great. Like that's excellent news for you as a business owner. I do want to add the caveat, you as a person with a family, like this is a good time to go ahead and make your account private, or your personal account at least, if you do not want that content indexed by Google.
Marvelous (02:26)
Or you
can turn it off. There is an option somewhere in the settings that you can say, like, I don't know where it is or what, but you can Google and find out, but you can, like, do not index me on Google. Yeah.
Jeni (02:30)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So I think that's like kind of a big deal.
Marvelous (02:39)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's
a really great point. But for businesses, I think it's really great news because it's just one more way that you can be discoverable from strangers who are asking questions to Google. So I think to me, it's like you have to sort of expand your idea of what SEO is because historically, it was just on your website, right? Like all you could do is write blog posts or YouTube. ⁓
Jeni (02:58)
Yeah.
Marvelous (03:04)
And now it's just expanded to all of your social channels basically. So you kind of need to rethink that and be a little bit more aware of what you are posting in order to, for people to, to find you. So what I think is kind of a cool concept is that we've just like drilled it into ourselves and all of our clients in the past that it's like blog posts, blog posts, SEO keywords. And now like there is a chance if somebody's writing a question or a query into Google,
that your Instagram reel may be shown over a long form blog content if it matches better with that user's intent.
Jeni (03:36)
you
Yeah.
Yeah. So I think language really matters here because obviously these are robots and algorithms indexing these things. So if you are kind of an inside baseball person and you're kind of talking in coded language to your audience, that's not necessarily going to play well with being indexed by Google, right? So it just it's just another like reminder to think how am I wording this? Like how am I speaking or writing if you're microblogging on a post?
For example, like how am I talking in a way that a robot is likely to interpret this in a helpful, useful way for people?
Marvelous (04:21)
Yeah, and I think with all of this ⁓ AI that is going on and how the entire search landscape is changing ⁓ because people are searching question and they're just reading the AI summary. And I think it's really important to understand that idea of intent. Google's going to match your content with the person asking the question if the intent is there.
What does this person really want? What is their intent for searching? So to use a super simple example, like if I'm typing in how to fix a leaky faucet, I probably want, I don't know, a YouTube video on how to do it, maybe a step-by-step blog post, maybe a list of tools that I might need, right? So Google's able to, from that question, go, aha, I see, her intent here is to learn how to...
fix a leaky faucet. So I'm going to show it YouTube videos, Instagram reels, the blog post, whatever. Right? So that's like, what is my intent for asking the question? What do I really want? And so I think you have to kind of think about that a little bit now when you are making some Instagram content, just like another, it requires you to understand what your ideal client is looking for on the internet.
Jeni (05:44)
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And I think there's still room to do like the messaging where you're talking to your existing like true fans. But like just try on a regular basis at least to start incorporating content that could be more easily indexed by search engines or AI tools as well.
Marvelous (05:49)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And,
and the other thing, ⁓ with this change, like Google is really looking for, yes, the intent and doesn't match. Like, do you have the answer to the question? ⁓ but also it's like looking for engagement too. It's still like, this is not new. This has always been the case for the algorithms to like it, but now Google also likes if people are sharing it or saving it or lots of comments on it, the more action or traction that you get on it, the better. And it also will include.
Jeni (06:20)
Thank you.
Marvelous (06:33)
It also really likes if you say you embed that or link that, let's say real into a blog post or over onto a sub stack, the more like spread out your content is, the more likely any of these AI tools are going to find it. So I have a list of like things to do for your videos to make it findable. Shall I go through? No, no, it's just a little list. Yeah, I have it right now. I have it. it. Okay. So.
Jeni (06:55)
That will be a future episode. ⁓ you're gonna do it right now? Okay, let's do it.
Marvelous (07:03)
I thought myself like, okay, Google's looking at content in Instagram, but how, like, what is it actually pulling from it? Can it listen? Can it read? Like, does it all just text? Like what is it? So Google can see the content. Let's just use video. Cause I think that's the one that was confusing me. So Google will actually read the caption, obviously like the little caption under the video. so basically if you can make it a mini blog post, which is a little bit more work.
Jeni (07:08)
Yeah.
Marvelous (07:32)
but it will be much more clear to Google what that post is about, or at a minimum, get a really clear title. So in that leaky faucet example, if you're only gonna write a few words, write how to fix a leaky faucet, right? So that it's very clear what that video is about. It can also look at onscreen text, titles, captions, overlays, lists that you put on. So any of that is going to help with your indexing.
It can also, scary enough, it can listen to your videos. So there is some voice recognition and AI transcription that goes on, even if you don't have those rolling on-screen captions. ⁓ And also, as I said, the engagement signals are really important to Google as well. So make sure in your caption that you use descriptive keywords, like rich text, rich captions. ⁓
clearly tell Google what your video is about, add on-screen text, so that might be just the title, that might be if a list, if that is appropriate. Obviously the auto captions, most of us use those, I don't see a video very often without auto captions on there, and just make sure your audio is clean so that it's not all garbly, because Google can listen creepily enough. And then again, just reinforcing the strength of that by putting it elsewhere, so sub stack.
or if it's a really good engaged reel, for example, it's maybe worth making a whole blog about that and then putting the Instagram is there as well.
Jeni (09:04)
Yep.
Yep. Yep. And so would you recommend that people just embed that video file? OK. Yeah. So that's typically what we recommend for YouTube. So now you just want to start doing the same thing with videos on Instagram.
Marvelous (09:11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Same with YouTube. Yeah. And like,
you know how, I think I see it mostly on Substack. Like people will tell a story, whatever they're writing on a topic and then they'll put like a really funny TikTok video there. And it liked it. It's not theirs, but it like adds to the whole thing. You know, like it reinforces and it adds like they, Google really likes these multimodal, you know, content, right? So many different like,
Jeni (09:34)
Yep, it reinforces their message.
Yeah.
Marvelous (09:45)
text and audio and video all in one place. So if you can start to get other people to embed your Instagram reel, that gives it a lot of priority.
Jeni (09:57)
Yeah, so be really funny or really helpful. Be helpful to people. Yeah, I think that that's great. I mean, again, I always sort of carry this fear of privacy issues with me with anything related to Meta in particular. And so I do like have that little ding ding ding going off on one part of my brain. But like the business side of me is like super excited about this for people. Yeah.
Marvelous (10:00)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
business side is fantastic. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's going
to be great. Okay. So story number two, I'm going to turn that over to you.
Jeni (10:32)
Yeah, so I just wanted to chat a little bit on this episode about kind of the changing landscape with respect to copyright law and AI. And I know that these episodes are really AI heavy, but like honestly, this is really what's happening in the landscape, in the business world right now, in the tech world, and in the rest of the world. Like AI is obviously ⁓ kind of a huge presence in all of our lives. And there's lots of other current events going on that we could talk about.
But essentially I know especially for creators there has been a lot of fear and confusion around copyright protection for original work. And so there's just sort of like some updates that are worth mentioning here that, you know, I think it's it behooves all of us to kind of like be following this as creators who put out original working content whether that's in the form of classes, videos, blogs, know, books, whatever it may be.
just to sort of understand. So the first one is a victory ⁓ that Anthropic just had. And Anthropic is the company behind Claude, which is one of the more popular AI tools. And we have always loved this tool for writing in particular. And so the judge said that even though Anthropic trained Claude on books,
like many, many books, that that did not violate copyright law. So I think like this is sort of a shocking decision for a lot of people because I mean, you think that a published work is sort of the most, published book out in the world is sort of the most protected entity that we have. Like if I go and publish a book, like I should be able to rely on that being protected for a hundred years, right? Like that's...
Marvelous (12:07)
shocking.
Jeni (12:28)
typically how we think about it, in this case, ⁓ because Claude or Anthropic was using this to teach kind of like broader context and ideas to its model, like the judge basically said, no, it's fine.
That's a very simple summary because it's like inspiration. So it falls under and like for the other like lawyers in the crowd, it falls under the concept of fair use. Like AI models are allowed to use published books to like understand background material and writing style essentially.
Marvelous (12:49)
Yeah.
So if I wrote a book that was my own work on, I don't know, like say psychology, like I'm a psychologist and I have like a framework for handling trauma or whatever. Like that's my work, that's my thinking, that's my work. I write a book to help other people so Anthropic could take that and like if somebody asks a question, how do I help myself with this situation, they would pull from my work.
Jeni (13:39)
Maybe, I mean, think that, I think, again, like, I don't know all of the minutia of this, but I think if Claude is using that as sort of like generic kind of like background conceptual material, but it's not necessarily like, you know, reiterating verbatim your particular theories, I think it's okay. And I think that this, the way that the court handled it in this situation is they likened it to, ⁓
a reader aspiring to be a writer. So just like someone who wants to be a writer is going to read a whole lot, it's kind of like the still like an artist, I think, theory. Just like if I want to become a novelist, I'm going to read a lot of novels, a lot of the great works of history and a lot of great modern novels. And of course, all of those experiences of reading those books are going to influence what I ultimately produce. There's nothing unique, right? None of us, well.
Marvelous (14:28)
I see.
Jeni (14:39)
That's one school of thought, right? Like we're not like divinely gifted some skill and idea that we, like, unless you're a savant, like your work is obviously informed by the other work that you take in as a consumer, as a reader, as a whatever. So I think that that's where it's at. And so in that way, like the court is really likening these AI models to a person, right? To a creator. Like, of course the AI models are going to need.
to consume this content in order to be able to produce anything because that is how things work.
Marvelous (15:15)
Hmm. Okay.
Jeni (15:17)
And that's at
least my interpretation of this. I mean, I think we're still really early to all of this. Like, I think these decisions are all still incredibly novel. And at least the jurisprudence, the law does not have, like, a consistent way of handling these kinds of issues. ⁓ But I definitely think this was a victory for, like, AI companies and obviously Anthropic and, like, a kind of big defeat for writers and...
Marvelous (15:39)
you
Jeni (15:46)
know, thinkers and people who create original work who obviously want to be compensated for their skill, their genius, their time, and that's not happening in this context.
Marvelous (16:01)
Was there two stories from that or just the one?
Jeni (16:02)
Yeah. There's a
few actually. So there's also a meta. There's another meta story. Of course, like you can't talk about anything. I feel like without the giant behemoth of the world coming in. So ⁓ meta also received a favorable decision on their AI usage. ⁓ So this was, I think, a smaller case where a district judge in San Francisco ruled.
that the folks suing Meta failed to provide sufficient evidence that Meta's AI usage would harm the market for their original work. So it's sort of a similar decision. ⁓ like the creators, the writers, the plaintiffs, they could not ⁓ prove that this Meta AI model consuming their content was actually harming them because it wasn't necessarily, they couldn't prove that it would prevent people from going and buying, purchasing, interacting with their work the way they put it out.
So I think that that's also a really interesting question to ask. And I think we will see this maybe change over time. Right now, I think most of us are still willing to go buy books, to go buy music, to go purchase and engage with creators in the commerce that they put out historically. I don't know 10 years from now if that's still going to be true or if like,
Marvelous (17:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeni (17:26)
as sort of generationally things change, you know, if younger people are just going to go to AI first and kind of never consume that original work. I don't know, but I don't think that it's been proven that that's been happening yet, at least at the scale that will harm people financially.
Marvelous (17:45)
Yeah, it's something to think about. I know a lot of our past coaching clients had some huge concerns about even just, I don't know, doing some example teaching on video with fear of that the AI tool is going to steal it. And I don't think it's that obvious and direct, but the fear is legit. Like I totally get it when you've developed something for years or a method or a process or something.
Jeni (18:07)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And then there's one more case too that I wanted to bring up and it's a Microsoft case. And that one is still kind of ongoing, but it's along the same lines and it has to do with a lawsuit that was filed by a group of writers that against Microsoft because Microsoft was using their work to train its Megatron text generator. I don't really even know what that is. So if you know what a Megatron text generator
Marvelous (18:35)
Megatron.
Jeni (18:36)
whatever that is, sounds kind of scary. But like that piece is ongoing and it seems like there's a chance that Microsoft will not win in that case. like, who knows? That's an interesting thing to follow. ⁓ But I just think in general, like this is just like, we're gonna see this play out for years and years and years in different contexts and I think in different countries and... ⁓
Marvelous (18:38)
transformer.
Jeni (19:00)
Yeah, I mean, I think as a creator for what most of us do, it's not relevant to us. I think if you're a published writer or you're someone who has really built a huge business based on your own, like you said, theory or process, think maybe that's a little bit more concerning that that will have a direct economic impact on you. But if you're a smaller business,
I like my take is just like kind of don't worry about it. Like that's like worrying about, you know, the girl next door copying what you're doing with your online business. Like, yeah, it kind of happens, but probably they're not going to be as good ⁓ as you at what you do. So like focus, it's like eyes on your own page, which we used to always talk about. Yeah.
Marvelous (19:30)
Yeah, I would say I agree. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, we haven't used that for a long time. Yeah, I
agree. Like I see, I don't know, like just, we see in our inbox some people that are very concerned about other creators doing something similar and it just consumes them. It consumes them. Yes, but my point is like, just let, let, just.
Jeni (19:59)
Yeah, it happens more frequently than you would think. Yeah.
Marvelous (20:09)
the eyes on your own page, go do your work. Like it is so harmful to you and your business and your energy and your emotions to worry about someone who might have the same freaking font as you on a whatever. Like it's just, I get it. I totally get it. But when you like step back and kind of look at it like we are, it's like, go do your work, go do your work, help your people. You know, there's like that abundance. There's more than enough. There's more than enough. Who cares if she has the same thumbnail as you, like whatever, you know?
Jeni (20:19)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know it's so interesting, Sandy. This is reminding me, I listened recently to a great episode of the Honestly Podcast, Barry Weiss's podcast, about Apple in China. I don't know if you've listened to that episode. It's really interesting. I highly recommend anyone who has any kind of interest in geopolitics or the tech industry to listen to that episode of the Honestly Podcast. But anyway, kind of as an aside, Barry's interviewing this writer of a book about Apple's role.
Marvelous (20:46)
Mm-hmm.
I didn't listen to that one, no.
Jeni (21:08)
in China and how, anyway, I won't get into it. But basically she said like, is so interesting. How come no one else is doing this research or doing this work? Like, why are no other journalists doing this? Or why isn't there another book on this topic? And the writer basically said, there's another guy who's this great journalist in Asia who was doing a book proposal at the same time as me. But he didn't get the book deal and I did. And there was a fear that
like our work would cannibalize each other, our books would cannibalize each other, and he said like I think there was also a decent chance that they would have like helped each other and he like wishes the other guy had also gotten the deal for the same for the same book basically and I just like that's an aside to that what the actual content of the show was but it really caught me I was like the sort of ⁓ elevated thinking and like
Marvelous (21:44)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jeni (22:00)
to have to realize, because I think that's true. Like when someone does something kind of like what you do, you actually build a market for it, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Marvelous (22:03)
That's like the...
Right. It's like the auto mall con- that's why all like,
all of them are lined up on a street all in one place, because you're going to go there and just go to all of them, right? That's the same- the same idea. Yeah, that's interesting.
Jeni (22:12)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah. So I would just say like, most of us don't worry about this. You know, I also remember like early on, I was in the Bay, I went to college in the Bay Area when like Napster was out and I had friends like right out of college when Google was like a new company going to work at Google. And I had a friend who like invented a Napster like.
Marvelous (22:22)
Do the work.
Jeni (22:42)
product and I just remember like it was the same sort of frenzy in the music industry about like people stealing music and I just you know, it's all gonna kind of shake out like the world is changing and I think if you're like Grasping on with a death grip to a world that doesn't exist anymore. Like you're only creating your own suffering So like, you know keep apprised of what's going on be smart about what you're doing If someone is like blatantly stealing from you call it out
We have legal systems for that, and we have social systems for that. But otherwise, let it go.
Marvelous (23:17)
Yeah,
I agree. I agree. And I think that like, that's what I want to say. Like I have so many people in my world who are like, AI is terrible and AI is the devil and AI is wrong and blah, blah, blah. You know, it's like, okay, but it's not going away. It is not like, it's not going away. So I am going to capitalize on that heavy and you know, it's gonna, it's gonna work out. It's like the printing press coming into, into existence. It's like, we're kind of like, like that kind of crossroads in history, I think so.
Okay, have one more story, ⁓ Substack. Substack has released some new updates, which we thought we would bring you. We know a lot of our clients use Substack because it is somewhere that people are seeing growth and we, ⁓ back in our coaching days, recommended it a lot. But right now, Substack, well, for the last probably year, Substack has really been heavy on pushing video and adding video features to its...
for its users and it just went and launched a live video. And what's kind of cool, I think is a really, really good idea is it, you can like schedule a live video and it will create the promotional assets for you to share on notes, which is inside Substack or other social ⁓ channels. ⁓ And then after the video, it will also create clips of little highlights of
of the live video, live stream. Again, you can share that on notes or you can share that on other platforms. And I think, yeah, so we were just talking like, should we use this? Like, I think we're going to look into a little bit more of what this live video is doing on, on Substack. But I, what I wanted to say was like, even if it's, even if it's not live video, even if you, so for example, we're on Substack, um, under the name, well, well blog and
when we do these podcasts, I make a video post and I put our video, which is the same thing that's on the YouTube channel, the full video on the sub stack post. It then creates clips for me automatically. I don't even have to click a button. just like, do, do, click picks, ⁓ does these little clips. They're so damn good. They're so good. Like we use, ⁓ Riverside and they're good, but
The sub stack clips are funnier, more concise. There's not so many filler words in the beginning of the clip. And my problem is that it's always in like big wide landscape. ⁓ What am I saying? Orientation. Yeah. And, but then I just realized looking at this story that just the sub stack updates on the app, they're in the right ratio.
Jeni (25:47)
ratio.
Mmm. Mmm.
Marvelous (25:58)
So I'm
gonna be maybe using some of those. And if you ⁓ add your YouTube account to Substack, it will auto post those for you, which is kind of cool.
Jeni (26:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's so cool. And I will just say, like, as a person who subscribes to a lot of sub stacks, which I know you also do, Sandy, as this has rolled out, it's been really interesting to see all of the notifications I get when someone is going live and how that works. Like, it's kind of the old days of, Periscope and all those kinds of things where, like, because if you have, for people to have the sub stack app, they're getting notifications there. Like, I'm getting notifications in my email account. Like, it's...
Marvelous (26:16)
Mm-hmm. Too many.
Jeni (26:37)
It's sort of a really powerful way, like Substack sort of engages your audience for you. You don't have to think about it. And so for that reason alone, if you are someone who's on Substack, I would play around with this feature because I think it will help build engagement from your existing subscriber base for your content.
Marvelous (26:43)
in the next
Yeah.
Yeah.
Periscope reminded me, ⁓ one of the other new features that they have is there on, ⁓ audio only live stream. So for those of you, like, what was that app that was in the pandemic, ⁓ clubhouse? Yeah. Like you could, was just like people chatting like on a party, on a party line. Yeah. Isn't that funny? But anyway, so if you, you know, really are adverse to
Jeni (27:10)
⁓ a clubhouse. Short lived billion dollar POS company. ⁓
Marvelous (27:24)
being on camera, being on video, which was such a big thing when we started. Remember people were like, ⁓ and now people are just like TikTok, like live from my bathroom or whatever, they don't care. But I think that's kind of an interesting thing is an audio only live stream. And they also are starting a scrollable video feed. I actually haven't quite found that where that is yet, but that is another thing, which again, early days, like for those of you who can adopt that early mindset,
Jeni (27:30)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marvelous (27:53)
early adopter mindset, like get in there, get on that live or that scrollable video feed, right?
Jeni (27:59)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I like this. I think, again, this story just additionally reiterates that the landscape is constantly changing for those of us in entrepreneurship and online business. In order to be successful or to see any kind of growth, you really have to be paying attention to these trends and these new tools and new opportunities. And so what worked
Marvelous (28:13)
Mm-hmm.
Jeni (28:24)
one year ago, five years ago, doesn't work the same way anymore. So thank you for being here and listening to this show. We do our best to sort of stay informed ourselves and to keep you informed. And I just encourage you to take a chance on something that might not work and see how it pans out for you and your business.
Marvelous (28:42)
Yeah. And if you're just doing the same old thing like you've been doing, like there's so many different ways to try this, to shake things up, right?
The other thing I wanted to mention with just with this Instagram thing is like, we mentioned it a few episodes ago, but like,
If you are on Instagram, think Jenny, we should do a whole episode of why we like ⁓ TikTok better than Instagram and what the difference is. think that'd be super. And we could bring like our favorite. I have some hilarious like, let's do that. Okay. ⁓ that's not what I wanted to say. There is a joke among TikTokers that whatever is happening and trending on TikTok is going to be a month or two later on Instagram. So
You know, if for those reels that you were trying to get indexed by Google, like I think all of you should be just watching what's happening, what's trending on, ⁓ on tick tock and bring it to Instagram and be the first. And I think that's one of our next upcoming episodes is like trends, like social media trends on topics.
Jeni (29:49)
Yeah, yeah, mean, as someone like I do not spend a lot of time as many of you know on Instagram anymore. I have fallen out of love with anything related to that platform, but I do spend time on TikTok and I just think that there's like a rawness and vibrancy like of energy on that platform. Yeah, and it's like not as polished and.
Marvelous (30:09)
and unique, it's unique, like there's new stuff.
Jeni (30:14)
I don't know, is curated and there's just something so damn refreshing. Like it feels much more like the early days of the internet, which I was madly in love with as an early blogger and user of all things, the internet. And so I just would say like, ⁓ if you are also feeling kind of defeated by your existing platforms or places you spend time, like just also realize there's other interesting.
Marvelous (30:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jeni (30:39)
And Reddit, like there's other places where their energy is just so different. And you might actually find some real connection and build some real relationships too, not just get clients. Like I just encourage you to not write off like the entire social media landscape or the entire internet because you've had some bad experiences in one place.
Marvelous (30:43)
Okay.
Yeah, okay, let's do that. Let's make that a whole podcast. Okay, all right. Thank you, Jenny. Thanks, everyone. Bye.
Jeni (31:02)
Yeah, we'll do that.
See you next time.