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Seth Baumgartner and Jason Van Leuven open the mics for your crop steering and cultivation questions.
(AI Generated)
Kaisha [00:00:01]:
What's up, gromies? Happy New Year. Welcome to Arroya office hours, your source for free cannabis cultivation education. I am your moderator, Kaisha. This is episode 88. If you're on the hangout or checking us out live on YouTube or Instagram, be for be sure to drop your question in the chat. And if it gets picked, we'll cover it during the show. Seth and Jason, what's up, guys?
Jason [00:00:21]:
Happy New year. Good to see you.
Seth [00:00:23]:
Happy New Year, Kaisha.
Kaisha [00:00:25]:
You too. Ready to get this party started?
Kaisha [00:00:28]:
Yeah.
Kaisha [00:00:29]:
All right, let's go. Mitchell has dropped a few questions recently, and so let's start with this one. Here they write, can you grow Zaza exotics with salts?
Jason [00:00:42]:
Yes, you sure can.
Seth [00:00:44]:
Just ones that are meant for plants. That's probably the key part, get the right salts.
Kaisha [00:00:49]:
But, yeah, absolutely, you can definitely grow high quality cannabis. I mean, overwhelmingly high quality cannabis on.
Seth [00:00:57]:
The market is grown with salt. I would say out there for people.
Kaisha [00:01:00]:
That are growing using either compost teas.
Seth [00:01:03]:
Or some sort of organic mix, that's highly the minority these days.
Kaisha [00:01:07]:
And even when we look back to a lot of people using various different organic mixes, it's kind of been standard.
Seth [00:01:15]:
For a long time to even apply some liquid fertigation or salt based fertilizer just to get it high enough nitrogen content in the pot. Anytime we're dealing with a potted plant, it's really difficult to get enough nutrition inside of a reasonable size media or.
Kaisha [00:01:29]:
A practical size media to actually provide.
Seth [00:01:32]:
The plant with everything it needs through the whole growth cycle. That's why using hydroponic solutions or salt.
Kaisha [00:01:37]:
Based fertilizers is so easy, for lack of a better term, if you're not.
Seth [00:01:43]:
Going that route, there's a lot more planning, and it's a lot more difficult to ensure consistent results.
Jason [00:01:49]:
Most of those two part salts right now are a lot more predictable. The complexity involved with organics obviously means that we have to break down the timeline of when our nutrients are going to be available to the plant by the decomposition of that chemical via microbes and other biologicals in that substrate. And so when we think about, all right, if we've got a cycle that we need to try and repeat time after time after time, making sure that we basically start with a clean slate, new medias, or at least sanitary medias, we know what's in there. We know what we're putting in there, and those nutrients are available in a very short timeline. So there's just a lot of large scale advantages to using salt.
Seth [00:02:36]:
Yeah. And really, the name of the game is consistency, right? Like, we're turning these crops over so quickly, so many of them inside of a year at most commercial facilities, that for business planning to work, you can't really have a huge fluctuation in yields. We want those to be fairly predictable and fairly consistent because that affects a.
Kaisha [00:02:54]:
Lot of operations downstream.
Seth [00:02:57]:
If every other harvest, the yield varies.
Kaisha [00:02:59]:
By 50%, whoever I've got trying to.
Seth [00:03:02]:
Market my product and keep stores stocked is really going to struggle, right?
Kaisha [00:03:05]:
So at that point, we can't have.
Seth [00:03:08]:
A slowly increasing or declining crop all the time.
Kaisha [00:03:11]:
And then on top of that.
Seth [00:03:15]:
Going with organics, there's nothing wrong with that if you have the space, but it does become a lot more difficult to.
Kaisha [00:03:20]:
Crop steer, because if I'm using organic.
Seth [00:03:23]:
Like, let's just say nitrogen inputs, typically different kinds of compost and manure, I could only get so much nitrogen content.
Kaisha [00:03:30]:
Out of a pound of that medium.
Seth [00:03:31]:
So practically, if I want enough plant nutrition to get me all the way through with only water, and like, let's say I'm using some form of compost.
Kaisha [00:03:38]:
And manure, I might need a five.
Seth [00:03:40]:
To ten gallon pot to get this plant all the way through its life cycle. And then I also don't necessarily, necessarily.
Kaisha [00:03:45]:
Have the most control over when that.
Seth [00:03:48]:
Nitrogen is going to be available. So for some strains, when I really need to be pulling back on that.
Kaisha [00:03:53]:
Nitrogen content, if I had an error two and a half months ago when.
Seth [00:03:57]:
I was potting up and or when I was mixing up that substrate and.
Kaisha [00:04:00]:
Then potting it up, I might not.
Seth [00:04:02]:
Be able to finish those plants in the time window that I was planning on. So that's why we see most of the industry going over to salts.
Kaisha [00:04:09]:
And even in the vegetable industry, that's.
Seth [00:04:11]:
Another reason we see hydroponic vegetable production increasing year after year, is because it's.
Kaisha [00:04:15]:
Predictable and easy to model a business after. And just even in the vegetable world.
Seth [00:04:21]:
Simply moving your plants from the outdoors into a greenhouse gives you a lot.
Kaisha [00:04:24]:
More control and literal physical crop insurance.
Seth [00:04:28]:
Compared to having something be devastated if you get a hailstorm that rolls through.
Kaisha [00:04:33]:
Or something like that. Yeah.
Jason [00:04:35]:
And I just kind of thought about maybe the guy's asking, are we looking at salt versus liquid nutrient? And most of the liquid nutrients are usually starting as salts when they come from a blended factory or individuals, and then they're blended at that manufacturer based on their requirements, they're just mixed with water into a concentrate when they're shipped. So as far as liquid versus dry salts, there's really not going to be much difference as far as growing those plants, even when it comes to exotics. Yeah.
Seth [00:05:09]:
I think the biggest thing with liquids is it's a personal preference. Some people would much prefer to measure things out by volume and mix it.
Kaisha [00:05:16]:
That way, whereas other people have no.
Seth [00:05:20]:
Issue weighing out salts on a scale and mixing up their own concentrate or solution.
Kaisha [00:05:24]:
That's kind of the only real difference.
Seth [00:05:26]:
And honestly, from experience, I would say where it breaks down for me is if I'mixing up 250 gallons in a.
Kaisha [00:05:31]:
Tank, I'm for sure you're going to use salts.
Seth [00:05:34]:
If I have house plants that I'mixing up one gallon of solution for that I'm going to go carefully pour on.
Kaisha [00:05:39]:
All my little house plants.
Seth [00:05:41]:
I might use one of a handful of liquid fertilizers I have sitting around because I'm only going to be putting in seven and a half or 10 particular solution in that case. And that's quicker and easier than weighing.
Kaisha [00:05:53]:
Out very small amounts of salt and complicating the process. So, personal perspective, you're not using up.
Jason [00:06:02]:
A 55 gallon drum of concentrate to your house.
Kaisha [00:06:05]:
No.
Seth [00:06:05]:
Strangely enough, yeah.
Jason [00:06:07]:
Get some more plants in that place.
Seth [00:06:09]:
Yeah. And in certain situations, depending on what your flow is, how many people you.
Kaisha [00:06:15]:
Have around, what kind of skill sets your employees have, we do see plenty.
Seth [00:06:20]:
Of customers that actually buy liquid concentrates and then run them through a fertigation skid just to eliminate potential human error in their systems.
Kaisha [00:06:29]:
So as much as we all talk.
Seth [00:06:31]:
About salts or liquid, it's at the end of the day the same thing.
Kaisha [00:06:34]:
And figuring out what works for you for years. Like out here in eastern Washington where? Well, like around where Jason and I.
Seth [00:06:43]:
Live, we don't have a lot of hydro stores. You can't drive 20 minutes and go pick up a product, so everything's getting shipped in. And when you start doing that on your nutrients, at least we would have had to ship a lot of barrels of nutrients. Well, that starts to get heavy and costs more on shipping. We can cut that out by just mixing our tanks.
Kaisha [00:07:03]:
Amazing. Great insights, you guys. Thank you for that. Mitchell, thank you for the question. And I know you have a couple others. We'll do our best to get back to those. We want to get as many questions in as we can from as many viewers. This next question comes from Hashman Dan.
Kaisha [00:07:16]:
They write, when I push adequate runoff, my sensors flatline for three plus hours before they start drying back. Is this normal? I clean the sensors weekly, and they are relatively accurate when compared to the Solas.
Kaisha [00:07:29]:
What do you guys think.
Jason [00:07:33]:
I'll kind of tack that one backwards. Maybe. As far as accuracy versus the Solas, if you're using aurora sensors, then you should be seeing very similar readings.
Kaisha [00:07:43]:
Obviously.
Jason [00:07:44]:
Maybe that accuracy is just a feeling of, hey, I get a time series data where I know what my Ec water content and substrate temperature is at any point in time versus when we're checking it. Exactly. As far as flatlining for a few hours after getting enough runoff, I guess I'd be curious if he's talking about EC or water content.
Seth [00:08:08]:
I would kind of think water content typically, but either or. A big thing that I've seen over time is with your p one cycle, you're putting a lot of water into that room. And if you've pushed adequate runoff, depending on how big your room is and how many plants you have, what your media size is, basically how much of.
Kaisha [00:08:25]:
That water actually went out of the pots and hit the tray, a lot.
Seth [00:08:28]:
Of times we'll see the humidity rise quite a bit, VPD drop down, and we actually get lower transpiration for a.
Kaisha [00:08:34]:
Few hours while the HVAC system is.
Seth [00:08:36]:
Trying to catch up with that dehumidification.
Kaisha [00:08:39]:
That's super common.
Seth [00:08:40]:
And that's also one of the reasons we never try to recommend.
Kaisha [00:08:43]:
If you're at a point in growing.
Seth [00:08:46]:
A certain style, like, let's say you're in the six x six by six rock walls, we kind of constantly bash those. But if you have to water all the way until, let's say, 30 minutes.
Kaisha [00:08:55]:
Before lights off, that's not a lot.
Seth [00:08:57]:
Of time for your dehumidifiers to deal with that extra moisture that you're introducing into the room. And now that we've got water out on the tables and a room with adequate airflow, that water is going to evaporate. So that would be, I think, probably the first thing to look at is once you introduce that water, are we seeing high humidity, less transpiration? It's just taking time to actually achieve.
Kaisha [00:09:18]:
That dryback because the plants can't pull.
Seth [00:09:21]:
As much water up out of the pot when the room's very humid.
Kaisha [00:09:27]:
Thank you guys for that. Hashman. Dan, good luck. Thank you for the question. Our good friend Cypher's on the horn here. He just dropped a little comment on our previous conversation. He wrote, it's my opinion that using salts versus organics is more philosophical debate than a scientific one. Cypher, you want to say anything else about that? Seth and Jason, if any other thoughts with that in.
Kaisha [00:09:52]:
You know, the way.
Seth [00:09:54]:
Anyone figured out that you can put salts on a plant is by trying to analyze what's actually in the soil and try to figure out what's having an effect on the plants.
Kaisha [00:10:01]:
Right? So looking at what elements are present, nitrogen, for instance. Over the years, experimentally, people figured out.
Seth [00:10:08]:
That we have a conversion rate going from different types of compost we're putting on the soil that's turning into plant available nitrogen. Hey, people have done experiments, and now we see that certain types of nitrogen are more plant available. So I definitely think it is philosophical.
Kaisha [00:10:23]:
And even when we're looking at organic.
Seth [00:10:27]:
Agriculture, for instance, you still can damage the environment by having an accumulation of too much of any type of. Well, even if you have a lot of compost, you still have nitrogen running off downstream.
Kaisha [00:10:40]:
So I definitely agree.
Seth [00:10:42]:
It's quite philosophical, and.
Kaisha [00:10:46]:
I think we'll.
Seth [00:10:47]:
Continue to see organic growing kind of on the boutique side. There's always going to be a market for it, just like in produce, wine, everything else. But by and large, it's not the.
Kaisha [00:10:58]:
Most practical or easiest way to make.
Seth [00:11:01]:
Money in the cannabis market, or any food market for that matter.
Kaisha [00:11:05]:
That's why we don't see a lot.
Seth [00:11:07]:
Of full on organic where we live here. Wheat and chickpeas are two of the biggest things. The demand for organic chickpeas is very difficult for local farmers to keep up.
Kaisha [00:11:18]:
With, because in this climate, it's hard.
Seth [00:11:21]:
To not use certain additives to prevent disease or even get your plants to ripen up sometimes.
Kaisha [00:11:25]:
So their trade off is, hey, we.
Seth [00:11:27]:
Can run organic, but we might not get as big of a yield this year. There's a pretty big premium on doing it. So they have to decide on a philosophical level if they want to grow organically and leave money on the table.
Kaisha [00:11:40]:
When it comes to the potential that.
Seth [00:11:43]:
That space has to offer when you're cultivating in it.
Kaisha [00:11:48]:
I love it. I love these conversations because I think a lot of what we in the cannabis world are dealing with is a combination of trying to balance that philosophical with the scientific. We're learning a lot still, and even people who've been doing this for decades. So I love that you made that point, Cypher. Appreciate you. All right, we're going to keep going. We got some live questions in on YouTube. I on armor submitted a few, so I'm going to start with the first one.
Kaisha [00:12:15]:
They write I'm in a new facility with new strains, don't have access to time series data yet, just the solas. What are some ways to establish some baselines to help start crop registration?
Jason [00:12:29]:
So typical crop registration is going to be some of the easiest stuff to capture. We're looking at things like plant height, runoff, measurements for volume, ECPH. Start capturing the ones that you're used to doing, the ones that are very physically evident. Obviously, some of the morphology numbers in there as well. Those are very important, especially early in the flower cycle. And then if you do have a solace, obviously, one would be capturing that before irrigation, shortly after your last irrigation, and then probably, maybe even before lights off. So it kind of just depends on how much time investment you have, how much value you can make from that data. Do you have a good way to organize it, store it, and analyze it? So I personally would start with the really simple ones.
Jason [00:13:15]:
If you do have a solace, start getting that stuff detailed, strain by strain.
Seth [00:13:20]:
Yeah, just like Jason said. Get your regular habitual readings that you need to get every day. Get them into a spot where you can organize and analyze them easily. That way, when you go back to look at it, we can say, hey.
Kaisha [00:13:30]:
I've noticed every time I'm growing the.
Seth [00:13:32]:
Strain, my ph is trending down throughout the first few weeks. And then I look at my solace readings, hey, I'm struggling to get my ec up. Okay, I've got a plant that appears to be a heavy feeder. Now, I can start potentially matching that with other plants in the same room, or just at least figure out what are some of the limitations in my system that might allow me to run certain plants in certain rooms or areas. But one of the biggest keys is making it so that it's an accomplishable task in the workday. I've seen too many examples, or not too many. More than I can count, I should.
Kaisha [00:14:04]:
Say, where the intention is there, but.
Seth [00:14:08]:
Everyone'S working to get this facility dialed in. They're always battling equipment malfunctions, this or that, and that kind of gets left by the wayside. So sometimes it's up to the manager or operator to make sure that whoever's.
Kaisha [00:14:21]:
Responsible for doing that has that, let's.
Seth [00:14:24]:
Say 20 to 30 minutes every morning to make sure they're getting accurate crop registration data.
Jason [00:14:30]:
Yeah, most of the conversations that I have, I always almost try to start with environmental parameters. And so if you don't have time series data for environmental parameters, get something. There's lots of cost efficient equipment out there. A lot of it's wireless, a lot of it's easy to set up and start using at no cost. Obviously, getting a full blown arroyo system is a nice way to get that into one place. Allow for corporate station to be tied into that information, but definitely start getting some HVAC time series data, environmental time series data, to get an idea of, hey, is our rooms operating how we think it should be? Are we running into some anomalies that are related to any of the equipment failures or just some programming that may not have been caught when we got into that new facility? Any of that type of stuff is going to be critical to make sure that you have a predictable projectable crop. Yeah.
Seth [00:15:28]:
And depending on your production size and.
Kaisha [00:15:30]:
Your business and where it's at, a.
Seth [00:15:34]:
Lot of the even basic monitoring equipment, or arroya. With Arroya, go is not quite as expensive as you would think in terms of having a good roI. So there is an investment upfront.
Kaisha [00:15:44]:
But when we look at all the.
Seth [00:15:46]:
Little things that can go wrong in these systems that end up being fairly.
Kaisha [00:15:49]:
Complex, like a big thing for me, I know was getting time series monitoring overnight so I could understand how quickly.
Seth [00:15:57]:
The room cooled down, how quickly the humidity shot up. Years ago, we were using really cheap hydrometers that gave me you a high and a low for a time period, and you just reset it every 12 hours and record that.
Kaisha [00:16:10]:
But for me, it was pretty eye.
Seth [00:16:11]:
Opening to say, hey, oh, wow. We got to really deal with our humidity in this situation, right when the lights turn off, we lose almost ten degrees. In a lot of greenhouses, depending on what your climate is like outside, how.
Kaisha [00:16:21]:
Well you're insulated, and then the humidity would shoot up.
Seth [00:16:23]:
We knew it got high. What we didn't know was, did that happen really quick?
Kaisha [00:16:27]:
Did that take a while? Are there times in the year where.
Seth [00:16:30]:
It behaves differently in this particular situation? And it turns out all of those things are factors. So having eyes on it means you can actually do something about it, rather than just wondering why. For instance, let's say your humidity is.
Kaisha [00:16:43]:
Going really high at night.
Seth [00:16:44]:
You come in and it seems like your pots are super wet during bulking every morning. You're not getting much of an overnight dry back.
Kaisha [00:16:50]:
And if you can't monitor that, you're.
Seth [00:16:53]:
Just totally blind to it.
Kaisha [00:16:54]:
And you have to be able to.
Seth [00:16:55]:
Put numbers on it, especially if we're talking about something like humidity or VPD. Unless you've outfit a lot of facilities, it's pretty difficult to just say exactly. Here's how short you are on DHU capacity. For instance, like, we need to look at what your absolute humidity is and see how much we need to be pulling out at different temperatures. And we can actually gauge whether you're going to make a smart purchase on upgrading your system, or if you might.
Kaisha [00:17:22]:
Be undershooting it, or massively overshooting it.
Seth [00:17:25]:
I've seen it go both ways. Or we hope this little addition is going to fix everything.
Kaisha [00:17:29]:
Or whoa, we overshot it.
Seth [00:17:32]:
We got sold something that's really big and now our humidity range is like 15%. That's all we can affect anytime we.
Kaisha [00:17:39]:
Turn that DHU on or off.
Jason [00:17:42]:
Yeah, and for printing the growers out there that might still be just using the hydrometer with the high low marks. Please get yourself into some time series data. If one of those high lows measures a low at say 60 degrees or maybe even 55, well, if that's at 55 for three minutes, you might just look into tweaking a piece of equipment. Whereas if that's 55 for 5 hours, that's a critical thing to watch. And that type of equipment is not going to give you insight into how severe that situation is.
Seth [00:18:20]:
Yeah, and that's a great example, especially looking at it overnight. If our temperature drops down to 55 and I'm seeing that humidity start to creep up and up to like, let's.
Kaisha [00:18:28]:
Say 70, the difference there might be a molded out crop.
Seth [00:18:33]:
So your ROI on just investing a little bit into some of that equipment is immediately realized. For most growers, even at a smaller scale, not losing your crop is worth.
Kaisha [00:18:45]:
100% more than losing your crop, no.
Seth [00:18:48]:
Matter what the value is of that crop.
Kaisha [00:18:53]:
Yeah, cypher dropped a comment here, lol, on the highs and low meters and we thought we were killing it by tracking that back in the day. It's amazing how far can of cultivation has come. That is the truth, right? Amazing. All right. Going to keep it moving. Iron armor, we got more of your questions, but want to try to get as many folks covered today as we can. So I'll come back to your next one in a few minutes. We got this question in from indie Bud on YouTube.
Kaisha [00:19:17]:
They wrote you guys recommended saturating cocoa with ro water when transplanting and give newts on a first feeding. Is that first feeding after initial ro dryback or final shots of initial saturation rec water?
Jason [00:19:35]:
We want to make sure that the media that we're transplanting in is going to have nutrients in it before the roots are going to try and get in there. Right. So whether that be we are applying some irrigations at the time of transplant or if it's just making sure that it's charged up before we transplant, not going to have a big impact. We definitely don't want to wait until we've let that media dry down in order to get it charged up with nutrients.
Kaisha [00:19:59]:
Yeah.
Seth [00:20:00]:
Even if you're charging with Ro first, you're going to want to go in and charge that up with some nutrient solution before you transplant into it.
Kaisha [00:20:07]:
And typically a good thing to look at.
Seth [00:20:10]:
One of the reasons you might want to wash or do that initial hydration.
Kaisha [00:20:13]:
With Ro, it just depends on your cocoa source and the time of the year.
Seth [00:20:16]:
So that's one thing I like to do, is use a fairly clear solution. It doesn't have to be straight ro, it can still be nutrient solution, but as long as I can see the color difference coming out of the pot and then collect some of that runoff.
Kaisha [00:20:27]:
To see if like, hey, one single.
Seth [00:20:30]:
Test pot, I just put enough Ro on to hydrate it.
Kaisha [00:20:33]:
I've got runoff.
Seth [00:20:34]:
I collect some of that runoff and I'm seeing a one point OEC.
Kaisha [00:20:38]:
Okay.
Seth [00:20:38]:
That's telling me that I definitely need to charge that and actually achieve some.
Kaisha [00:20:42]:
Runoff and check it and make sure.
Seth [00:20:44]:
That not only am I rinsing out any of that incoming sodium, but then verify that I've actually charged that pod.
Kaisha [00:20:51]:
Up to, ideally at least a 3.0.
Seth [00:20:55]:
Sometimes even charging them up to a 4.0 seems to be necessary.
Jason [00:20:59]:
And keep tabs on the ph. I've seen many times where even just batch to batch, there's some fluctuation from a manufacturer in the ph. And especially if you're going to a new manufacturer or like Seth said, it could be a different season. There's a lot of variation factors in what we see, the ph of that runoff, and that can be detrimental into how quickly and how healthily your plants rode into that new media.
Kaisha [00:21:26]:
Oh, yeah.
Seth [00:21:26]:
I mean, absolutely. I think we've kind of said ad nauseam on here. Most of the time when we're looking at nutrient problems or supposed deficiencies, salt lockout, et cetera. Usually there's two things.
Kaisha [00:21:36]:
Number one is generally feed more, or.
Seth [00:21:38]:
Unless you're feeding at something insanely high, feed less. And then a lot of times what we end up seeing is like, hey, go start to pull some ph samples around the room. And the sicker looking plants typically are outside of ph ranges. Generally what we see, there are other pathogens that can affect plant health for sure. But ph is so essential that if you take that small clone and drop it into a one gallon that's at.
Kaisha [00:22:03]:
A 5.0 ph, you're probably not going.
Seth [00:22:05]:
To see very good growth because that plant can't access the nutrients that are in that block.
Kaisha [00:22:10]:
And now you're in a situation where you need to correct that ph, but.
Seth [00:22:14]:
You also don't want to drown your.
Kaisha [00:22:15]:
Plants for like three days straight trying.
Seth [00:22:18]:
To correct that because there's no uptake happening, there's no water to replace. You're just continually saturating that pot.
Kaisha [00:22:27]:
Awesome. Thank you guys for that. All right, live questions are coming in fast and furious. This is a great one we got on Instagram. Muffgroves wrote, if you were growing at home, would you use living soil, cocoa or rockwell?
Kaisha [00:22:42]:
I love that question.
Jason [00:22:44]:
It depends if I'm growing outside in my greenhouse or inside in the closet.
Kaisha [00:22:49]:
What's your preference?
Jason [00:22:52]:
I personally love cocoa, and I love growing in the soil as well. You just got to make sure with the soil. Last year just moved into a new house and my soil was not very happy growing. I didn't get my greenhouse in in time and the nights were just way too cold. So for something like indoor growing at home, I like cocoa just because it's a little bit more forgiving. And I don't necessarily have a lot of infrastructure to ensure that I can keep up equipment performance for the demands of Rockwell. So for a lot of instances, cocoa is kind of the safe bet in a good environment for indoor or greenhouse and then for outdoor. Most of the time, I like just running in the soil.
Seth [00:23:37]:
Personally, at home, I've run both cocoa and Rockwell over the years. I really enjoy cocoa because I'll run that, throw it in a compost pile, and then that ends up in my regular garden down the road.
Kaisha [00:23:45]:
It's a little bit less waste sometimes.
Seth [00:23:49]:
Though, like talking about winter, for instance. I personally like to run Rockwell inside. It's less messy, less work. And fortunately, I have an irrigation system.
Kaisha [00:23:58]:
That is reliable and I can operate remotely.
Seth [00:24:02]:
If I didn't have a reliable irrigation system set up, or let's say I was in a three gallon pot and hand watering. I mean, cocoa is definitely the most.
Kaisha [00:24:10]:
Forgiving and the easiest to use, but.
Seth [00:24:14]:
It just depends on your preference and how much time you have to put into it. I mean, Rockwell is just a little bit higher maintenance.
Kaisha [00:24:20]:
And if we're talking about home growing too, what are your goals?
Seth [00:24:26]:
What kind of yield goals are we looking at? For me personally, if I'm growing under one light, I'm not looking at any economic production here.
Kaisha [00:24:34]:
I'm not making money on it.
Seth [00:24:35]:
I don't necessarily need to get three pounds of light at that rate.
Kaisha [00:24:40]:
A lot of times at home, let's say I'm doing a pheno hunt, then.
Seth [00:24:43]:
I'm definitely going to use cocoa, be.
Kaisha [00:24:45]:
Pretty conservative, low maintenance approach, and that satisfies my needs there. I think the cool thing about growing.
Seth [00:24:54]:
At home is you can do a lot of different things that are just not feasible in a commercial setting and obtain some really good results without putting in an excessive amount of effort for your return. You can grow what you want, basically, not what the market demands. And there's something pretty awesome about that.
Jason [00:25:13]:
It's a great place to run some r and d trials and keep your friends and family happy with product.
Kaisha [00:25:19]:
I love that we talked about this and that we recorded it so that I can refer to it later while I decide what I'm going to do with my little outdoor grow this year. All right, moving on. We got this question in on Instagram. Does anyone know what actually causes cannabis to purple out more? I'm not convinced it's temp. What do you guys think?
Jason [00:25:41]:
I mean, if we go to the direct route, it's anthocyanin. It's responsible for the coloring in there. I mean, it's also responsible for the coloring of things like blueberries and huckleberries and other plants that have purpling in color. So that's one of the chemicals that's causing that expression in the plant. As far as how to increase the amount of anthocyanin for more purpling in plants, typically, we look at the cooler temperatures, specifically at night. Even dropping them in the day can produce more anthocyanin. So there's probably other factors in there as well. But for otherwise very healthy plant and high production volumes, making sure our nighttime temps are cooler towards the end of the cycle is a very common, known, and effective way to get that.
Seth [00:26:29]:
I mean, I think another thing that gets overlooked in today's market, because purple is all the rage still on the west coast. It's making its way over to the east coast.
Kaisha [00:26:37]:
Everyone wants purple. When we look at plants and different.
Seth [00:26:40]:
Types of expression, we're also looking at genetic potential. So if we look at that anthocyanin.
Kaisha [00:26:45]:
Production, the genes that control that different.
Seth [00:26:47]:
Strains can have more or less copies of that same gene, the more copies it has. And also, when we look at things like linkage, depending on where it's at.
Kaisha [00:26:55]:
In the genome, too, if several of.
Seth [00:26:57]:
Those copies are on the same chromosome, they're going to be a little more accessible. We might get a stronger response to.
Kaisha [00:27:02]:
Some of that cold.
Seth [00:27:03]:
And part of why we see different strains expressing it with more or less ease depending on that temperature drop, really has to do with that. When we look at some classic strains that would get super dark purple, almost.
Kaisha [00:27:15]:
Black, we're looking at a pretty special.
Seth [00:27:18]:
Genetic specimen, especially if it's doing that.
Kaisha [00:27:20]:
Without that big temp diff.
Seth [00:27:22]:
That's a unique trait and usually has to do with repeated copies of that gene over and over that are putting out more of the internal products that produce anthocyanin.
Kaisha [00:27:31]:
So temperature is pretty important.
Seth [00:27:34]:
But if you're working with a strain that doesn't have the genetic potential to do that, it's just like when we don't do it so much here. But there's always been talk about different strains producing different cannabinoids for the medical market, right? Some strains just do not produce very much CBD. Other strains that if CBD was what.
Kaisha [00:27:52]:
We wanted to harvest out of that.
Seth [00:27:54]:
With fractional distillation, there's certain strains we'd grow because we know it has a higher ratio of that. And that has to do with genetic potential. There's only so much we can do environmentally to try to change those ratios.
Kaisha [00:28:05]:
We can boost overall ratios, but we.
Seth [00:28:08]:
Can'T force the plant to, let's say, produce more CBD or more anthocyanin than.
Kaisha [00:28:12]:
It'S genetically capable of doing.
Seth [00:28:14]:
So I think that's a really important.
Kaisha [00:28:16]:
Thing when we're looking at if that.
Seth [00:28:19]:
Purple is super important to us. Hey, strains come and go all the time. Start working with breeders and start pushing stuff through.
Jason [00:28:27]:
Just had a flashback of the first time I saw granddaddy purple.
Kaisha [00:28:32]:
Yeah.
Seth [00:28:32]:
And like I said, there's those winners out there that do just purple up.
Kaisha [00:28:35]:
And we're fortunately hitting a point in.
Seth [00:28:39]:
The market where genetics are a lot easier to exchange across state lines, we can actually track things.
Kaisha [00:28:44]:
You can start to trust the person.
Seth [00:28:47]:
You'Re getting your cuts from a lot more. And not saying you're getting ripped off.
Kaisha [00:28:50]:
Before, but they got a cut from a guy who got a cut, who.
Seth [00:28:53]:
Got a cut from someone else. And now you can start to track.
Kaisha [00:28:56]:
Actually where you bought that cut, where they got it from, and have some.
Seth [00:29:01]:
Confidence that you're getting the real deal and not something that's just close.
Kaisha [00:29:08]:
I mean, I love trends and all, but this donor is down no matter the color of the plan. Personally, cypher dropped a comment, a question here. Now that we're on this subject, can burning propane for co2 indoor affect anthocyanin production?
Jason [00:29:28]:
Historically, burning gases is actually a fairly efficient way to get co2. There can be some side effects of that. So if they're not being burnt cleanly. You can get things like carbon monoxide and you could get some other residuals in there as well that aren't necessarily healthy for the plants as far as how those affect the plant's expression. Pretty complicated thing that I don't necessarily know. I'm well versed enough to answer in this case.
Seth [00:29:58]:
I don't see where burning. I mean, we're going to elevate the levels of co2. That's going to help overall plant growth. But using propane or natural gas in particular is not necessarily going to influence that. What we're looking at is co2. It might make you see a little bit of purple. If your burner is not very clean and not running well, you might have extremely elevated levels of co2 and carbon monoxide in there, in which case that's not healthy for you or the plant.
Kaisha [00:30:23]:
But there's no significant advantage to burning.
Seth [00:30:26]:
Gas other than typically if we look at resources around, more buildings have a.
Kaisha [00:30:33]:
Natural gas pipeline running to them or.
Seth [00:30:35]:
Access to having a propane tank put in than they do to practically get co2 delivered all the time. And that's kind of where that comes from.
Kaisha [00:30:43]:
Greenhouse horticulture forever, especially when you know.
Seth [00:30:48]:
At different times of the year you're going to be gassing a lot of that off anyways and venting it. That's just the cheapest way to produce it. For home applications, though, I typically, or.
Kaisha [00:30:57]:
Indoor in general, typically point people away.
Seth [00:31:00]:
From gas burners these days. It's starting to get more and more stringent on safety regulations and different agencies not liking those to be in areas where people are working. And as a side effect now you'll also have to have a safety system that not only monitors your co2 level, but is going to also integrate with.
Kaisha [00:31:20]:
Your burner to shut that valve off.
Seth [00:31:22]:
If there ever is an emergency.
Kaisha [00:31:24]:
And if you're buying a co2 system that just operates off of co2, not natural gas, you're already investing in that.
Seth [00:31:33]:
System that's going to regulate that valve automatically.
Kaisha [00:31:38]:
Cypher had one more question on this topic. Too much nitrogen can affect anthocyanin. Also correct.
Seth [00:31:46]:
It definitely can for a lot of plants. We see that anthocyanin production as they're ripening up, they're entering that senescence phase of their life. And if we have too much nitrogen.
Kaisha [00:31:56]:
Particularly nitrate, not, let's say ammoniacal nitrogen.
Seth [00:32:01]:
In a lot of plants, that acts in the same way that oxen does and causes more and more vegetative growth, which is not going to let that.
Kaisha [00:32:07]:
Plant start to enter that phase where.
Seth [00:32:09]:
It'S going to produce anthocyanin.
Kaisha [00:32:10]:
So certainly we've seen situations where someone's.
Seth [00:32:15]:
Feeding a plant that's particularly sensitive to that, a lot of nitrogen latent flower, and usually if it's not purpling up, you're also having trouble getting the pistols to finish up. You're having a lot more white pistols still popping. Your plant just generally looks like it's not starting to ripen. And nitrogen can certainly be a cause for that. And that's why over the years, we've.
Kaisha [00:32:34]:
Seen all these different strategies from different.
Seth [00:32:37]:
Fertilizer companies, going from more complicated mixes that vary your nitrogen ratio to trying to go to a one size fits.
Kaisha [00:32:43]:
All mix, to going back to okay.
Seth [00:32:46]:
For certain strains, the one size fits all works just fine. And for other ones, we have to.
Kaisha [00:32:50]:
Tweak it and adjust those nitrogen ratios.
Kaisha [00:32:55]:
Awesome, you guys, thank you for have gotten. We got a question on this topic on YouTube, but we also got it a couple of weeks ago here from Mitchell. So we're going to address this question here. Can you guys cover the different dryback percentages and feed EC levels from beginning of flower till the end by weeks? So we're looking for an overview on drybacks and moderately feed EC all the way through the plant's lifecycle. What do you guys.
Jason [00:33:32]:
I mean, we always like to just group these up by either a generative or a vegetative type of strategy, simply because for the different strains, week three might look different as far as vegetative versus generative amount. And a lot of times for different strains, we want to kind of vary the intensity of that strategy as well with a grain of salt. Typically we'll be about three weeks of generative stacking there towards the beginning. A lot of times then we'll be in for four weeks of vegetative and then possibly one week of ripening there at the end. So when we think about those strategies, all right, when we're generative, we're trying to get some EC stacked up, we may be doing low amounts of runoff. We'll be pushing drybacks, typically in that, say 20%, 25%, depending on, obviously media type and size. If you're going really hard, sometimes you'll see a little bit larger drybacks. Or if your media is right on the edge of being a little bit too small to manage, you might see those as very large.
Jason [00:34:41]:
And then when we're talking about vegetative, typically we're closer to that, say 15% a lot of those numbers are going to be dependent on what EC levels you're seeing. What are your goals with that product? So there's quite a bit of variables in there that are going to alter it. So if we talk about then ripening, ripening levels, usually we're pushing back towards that generative type of strategy.
Seth [00:35:04]:
Yeah, I think the important thing to remember is that your pot size really affects how much you're going to be able to steer your plant in terms of irrigation. So there's a minimum pot size you want to have, and then there's a maximum pot size. And that's all going to depend on how big the plant you're growing is.
Kaisha [00:35:18]:
Right? But rule of thumb, you want to.
Seth [00:35:22]:
Be able to achieve at least a ten to 15% dryback in generative. We still want to see at least a 10% dryback during bulking in the.
Kaisha [00:35:29]:
Middle of flower, and then usually at.
Seth [00:35:32]:
Least that ten to usually more in the 20% to 30% range during ripening. But it's important to remember, if you're working with a cocoa perlite mix that only hits 48% BWC, you don't really want to push it below about 20% or so. And that's just because hopefully, your plants are all close together. The reality is you probably have about a 10% window that they all live.
Kaisha [00:35:54]:
In at any given time, so you.
Seth [00:35:56]:
Don'T want to push them too low. So in that case, if it was 48, and we can go down to.
Kaisha [00:36:00]:
20, hey, we can go up to.
Seth [00:36:01]:
A 28% dryback if that media is only hitting 35%. Now, I've got about a 15% window.
Kaisha [00:36:08]:
That I can work inside.
Seth [00:36:10]:
But really keep making sure that you're getting. If you're getting less than a 10%.
Kaisha [00:36:14]:
Dryback, typically the first thing to look.
Seth [00:36:17]:
At, Mike, first question to people is.
Kaisha [00:36:18]:
What size pot are we in?
Seth [00:36:20]:
And send me a picture of that plant. How tall is it? If I'm looking at a four foot tall plant that's in a five gallon.
Kaisha [00:36:25]:
Pot, like, okay, that's really obvious, but.
Seth [00:36:28]:
What I might be looking at is.
Kaisha [00:36:30]:
A four and a half foot tall plant in a two gallon pot, but.
Seth [00:36:35]:
It'S not a very aggressively feeding plant. And if our goal is to get.
Kaisha [00:36:39]:
More yield out of that plant, we.
Seth [00:36:41]:
Might be looking at going from a two gallon down to a one gallon media. That way we have more control over it, because if we get more dry back, we have the opportunity to put on more irrigation. And every opportunity we have to make the choice of whether or not to irrigate is an opportunity to actually affect.
Kaisha [00:36:55]:
The outcome of what it's going to be at the end.
Jason [00:36:59]:
It's kind of a fine balance because we want to be able to irrigate more often, but we also want to be able to make sure that we're not irrigating during photoperiod off. And so our substrate has to be big enough to support the amount of dryback in volume of water so that plant can continue growing rapidly.
Kaisha [00:37:18]:
Yeah, and then when we're talking about.
Seth [00:37:20]:
Feedy seeds, that's highly dependent on, I mean, generally we're going to be in.
Kaisha [00:37:24]:
That 3.0 to 4.0 range, but the.
Seth [00:37:26]:
Exact application is going to depend on the needs of that strain.
Kaisha [00:37:29]:
Some strains that are a heavy feeder.
Seth [00:37:32]:
Will run all the way up to 4.0 input the first three weeks, no problem, because if we're looking at time series data, we can see that that.
Kaisha [00:37:39]:
Plant is using up almost all the solder.
Seth [00:37:42]:
We have to put in a 4.0 or 2000 ppm just to actually build up above what the plant is trying to use up. If the plant's not a heavy feeder, we might be running at a 3.0 all the way through, even backing off a little bit down closer to 2.0 at the end, because this plant really didn't need it. And that can also be affected by what type of lighting you're running, how much actual PPFD you're seeing at the canopy. And spectral differences can help with that too.
Kaisha [00:38:07]:
So that is a part where crop.
Seth [00:38:10]:
Registration becomes really important. That way you can be reactionary. And we always like to say, plan.
Kaisha [00:38:16]:
Ahead for next time.
Seth [00:38:18]:
But that EC line is something you're going to want to watch and be.
Kaisha [00:38:21]:
Able to make well thought out decisions.
Seth [00:38:25]:
On day to day.
Jason [00:38:27]:
One of the things that you want to make sure that you're doing is managing the amount of runoff that you're getting. Because when we're looking at substrate ecs and feed ecs, really the goal is what's happening with our nutrients, right? Is the plant using these up? Are we running out of them? Are we supplying more than enough? And if we are not doing a great job managing our runoff well, we might just be washing that nutrients down the drain.
Kaisha [00:38:51]:
Yeah.
Seth [00:38:52]:
And that's something we saw, especially back in the days of running 70 30, even up to 50 50 cocoa perlite mix, small pot, irrigating a lot. What we were doing is essentially rinsing that back to that feed EC.
Kaisha [00:39:04]:
And part of what we want to.
Seth [00:39:06]:
Accomplish using these sensors is to be able to actually raise that EC and use that as a tool, not only to ensure plant nutrition, but we're also looking to apply a little bit of osmotic stress to that plant over time.
Kaisha [00:39:19]:
Amazing. You guys, we actually got a follow up from NAS on this question regarding the dryback range you guys gave. They write, is that 15% to 20% minus the maximum capacity or 15% to 20% of the number of max capacity?
Seth [00:39:36]:
So your max capacity minus that 15% to 20%.
Kaisha [00:39:41]:
If your cocoa or Rockwell that you're.
Seth [00:39:43]:
Using hits 65% VWC at field capacity.
Kaisha [00:39:46]:
Your max capacity, we're looking at drying back to.
Seth [00:39:50]:
At a minimum, if we're at 65, we want to dry back to at.
Kaisha [00:39:53]:
Least 50 to 55.
Seth [00:39:56]:
Ten to 15% right there.
Kaisha [00:39:57]:
And usually, if you're in a commercially.
Seth [00:40:01]:
Viable media, you're going to start seeing more than that pretty quick if you're hitting those kind of numbers.
Kaisha [00:40:06]:
But you want to make sure that.
Seth [00:40:07]:
You'Re talking about VWC, not saturation, because if we're talking about max capacity as.
Kaisha [00:40:14]:
Being 100%, you might actually want to.
Seth [00:40:17]:
See closer to 40% of that volume being gone. So you want to make sure that.
Kaisha [00:40:22]:
You'Re looking apples to apples at this and making sure, and not confusing at.
Seth [00:40:28]:
All, saturation versus volumetric water content.
Jason [00:40:33]:
Yeah. And I like to just apply some numbers to it because we get this question quite a bit in there. And so let's say I've got one gallon cocoa bag, right? So that's going to hold one gallon of material of any type ball type.
Kaisha [00:40:46]:
Right.
Jason [00:40:46]:
By volume. And so when we look at, say, field capacity in there at 65% water, that means we have zero point 65 gallons of water in there. What's going on is cocoa is taking up some space. We've got some oxygen taking up some space, and we've got that fertigation water that's taking up some space. Right? And so it's important to think, all right, when we dry back 15%, that means that in a one gallon pot, that's zero point 15 gallons. And so we went from zero point 65 gallons to one half gallon 0.5 gallons after that dryback.
Kaisha [00:41:20]:
Awesome. Thank you guys for that. All right, just rounding out the hour, y'all. We got about 19 minutes left in the show. We're going to get to as many questions that we can, but also don't worry if we don't get to it today. We got you another time. Pat dropped this question on YouTube. I saw a video a few days ago that said to soak in cow mag for 36 hours.
Kaisha [00:41:38]:
Does that sound right?
Seth [00:41:42]:
Not typically. It's not necessary. I mean, calmag used to be pretty popular back when we didn't have as many cannabis specific fertilizers. Just because cannabis is a particularly calcium hungry plant, and calmag can be useful in taking, like, let's say we have a heavily sodium loaded block of cocoa. That calmeg is going to help kick out that sodium. But because we don't have much cation exchange capacity in that cocoa, not much.
Kaisha [00:42:09]:
Of that sodium is actually bound.
Seth [00:42:11]:
So the action that you're getting out of the calmag is different than in.
Kaisha [00:42:14]:
An older school setup where we actually.
Seth [00:42:16]:
Did have some cation exchange capacity in there.
Kaisha [00:42:19]:
At that point, we'd use the calmag to free up some of the other.
Seth [00:42:23]:
Ions that we want to be able to flush out or make plant available. In this case, we just need some kind of ionic concentration to help push that sodium out. It's not going to hurt anything to do that 36 hours soak.
Kaisha [00:42:35]:
But I would say that it's probably.
Seth [00:42:38]:
If you're in a commercial setting and you're trying to not necessarily rush, but keep a good production line, that's not.
Kaisha [00:42:44]:
Really that necessary to be doing.
Kaisha [00:42:49]:
Awesome. Thank you for that. Okay, moving on. We got this question on Instagram. Someone wrote, for a two gallon quick fill, is a dual stakes at 40 mils per minute good.
Jason [00:43:04]:
In most setups until we get really large, or unless we're in a small four x four block for vegging. I like dual steaks and 40 mils per minute. We'd have to do the calculation on there, but usually we talk about zero.
Seth [00:43:17]:
Point 32 gallons per hour.
Kaisha [00:43:19]:
Cool.
Jason [00:43:20]:
We like the slower flow rates, so 32.5s, those are definitely going to be easier to manage.
Kaisha [00:43:26]:
Yeah.
Seth [00:43:26]:
If you're at 40 mils total, that's about a 0.3 gallon emitter that's supplying two steaks.
Kaisha [00:43:32]:
And it is just like Jason.
Seth [00:43:33]:
It's really nice to have two steaks on there. You're getting two points of water injection. That's my preference for simplicity's sake.
Kaisha [00:43:41]:
I really love running two emitters per plant.
Seth [00:43:44]:
Two of those 0.3 gallons, my favorite, or 0.5 that way. Also, you have a little bit of.
Kaisha [00:43:50]:
Redundancy if one of those emitters should plug.
Seth [00:43:55]:
That's also part of why your daily crop registration walkthroughs are important.
Kaisha [00:43:58]:
But I would rather have a plant.
Seth [00:44:00]:
Get half the water that I wanted to put on it compared to none of the water that I wanted to put on it and then go notice that out in the room. So those are some things to think about. But yeah, that's a very appropriate flow rate.
Kaisha [00:44:14]:
Thank you for that question, actually. Okay, so this question, this came from, realize they posted it a few weeks ago, but it aligns with a dryback discussion that we just have. So they wrote, are you guys recommendation your recommended drybacks based on relative change or absolute change?
Jason [00:44:31]:
Yeah, I think we were kind of explaining that earlier. I'm going to guess. But what he's meaning is we're talking about absolute change, right? So 15% loss in water content is going to be 15% of that substrate's total volume, not necessarily 15% of the field capacity.
Kaisha [00:44:49]:
Awesome.
Kaisha [00:44:49]:
Thank you for that clarification because, yeah, we do get a lot of questions along those lines. Okay, moving on. All right, iron armor, I'm moving on to your next question here. They wrote, any recommendations on leaf surface temps for all stages of growth? Veg, gen, bulk and finish rooms are led, if that makes a difference. What advice do we have for iron armor?
Seth [00:45:14]:
So, for the first three weeks, and even in little ways into bulking, typically we want to see about 80 to 82 for that leaf surface temp. That's where we see the most optimal.
Kaisha [00:45:25]:
Plant growth at that being said, sometimes.
Seth [00:45:28]:
That'S actually kind of tough to achieve in different led rooms.
Kaisha [00:45:31]:
Just depending on how far away your.
Seth [00:45:33]:
Lights are to achieve a certain PpFD and how much airflow you have, sometimes you might end up running your room at 85 eightyz to achieve that leaf surface temp later on, going into the end of bulking and into ripening, we're wanting to see usually around 78 to 80 in the daytime leaf surface temp, provided we can actually bring that diff down at night.
Kaisha [00:45:56]:
Beyond that, going down to 75 leaf.
Seth [00:45:59]:
Surface temp in the daytime can have some benefits, but that's getting a little low. And I think that's probably one of the biggest challenges of growing with leds, is HPS lights always gave us that.
Kaisha [00:46:08]:
Nice radiant heat and made it a.
Seth [00:46:10]:
Lot easier to regulate the leaf surface temp of the plant because all we had to do at that point was add a little bit of airflow and ac to cool the room down.
Kaisha [00:46:18]:
Now we're looking at heating the whole.
Seth [00:46:19]:
Room up while we're also trying to circulate this air. So kind of, kind of fighting ourselves a little bit sometimes trying to get.
Kaisha [00:46:25]:
That leaf surface temp in spec, but.
Seth [00:46:28]:
That'S really where you need to be focusing is looking at those average leaf surface temps and then dialing the rest of the room around achieving that 80 to 82 for those first three to five weeks.
Jason [00:46:39]:
Generally, yeah. I do want to reiterate how important it is to consider average leaf temperature because it's not necessarily an easy measurement to take. If we think about how many variations in leaf surface temperature there is going to be across the room, obviously we've got some strain dependencies. We've got where they're at in the environment where they're at versus the airflow that's going through the room, how much exposure they have to light. So top of the canopy versus lower in the canopy. Age of the leaf actually has a big impact on leaf surface temperature as well. Newer leaves are going to transpire a little bit more efficiently than the older ones. So one of my favorite ways to do this is by actually using a thermal camera, taking a few pictures, you're going to save yourself tons of time as far as getting an accurate number from the samples that you're utilizing, so they're worth it.
Jason [00:47:29]:
You can also check on equipment with them and stuff. So it's something that I'm always preaching to people that, hey, this is not only a really cool piece of equipment that's going to give you a new insight to the plants, but that's going to save you time. It'll actually save you money in a pretty short, pretty short Roi.
Kaisha [00:47:45]:
Oh, absolutely. I mean, if you're using like a flir camera that you can pull averages.
Seth [00:47:50]:
From and just use color visualization to.
Kaisha [00:47:52]:
Do a quick like, hey, looks like.
Seth [00:47:54]:
My average is about 78 degrees across the whole room. That might take one person several hours to go. Actually put together that average leaf surface temp, taking hundreds of readings across the.
Kaisha [00:48:04]:
Room on plants at various heights everywhere.
Seth [00:48:08]:
So it's definitely a worthwhile piece of technology to invest in and something that if you intend to stay in cultivation for a long time, you will get.
Kaisha [00:48:17]:
Your use out of.
Seth [00:48:18]:
And there's other side benefits. I know I've used them in facilities.
Kaisha [00:48:21]:
To identify clogged plumbing.
Seth [00:48:23]:
When we're looking at the irrigation lines, a lot of times between your irrigation or different airflow channels, you can actually, while it's running, hold that thermal camera up and see it looking like the classic clogged artery. And they're highly useful. Or you can see hot spots with different equipment. Is a fan motor starting to run hot? And maybe that's something we want to take a look at.
Kaisha [00:48:44]:
So definitely food for thought.
Seth [00:48:46]:
Leaf surface temp is really important and the tools that you use to attain that can also be used in other ways in your facility.
Kaisha [00:48:54]:
Great advice. Yeah, those images are cool, but, yeah, makes their lives easier, too. Great. All right, we got a follow up to the dual stakes at 40 mils per minute. Question. They wrote, I'm growing in two gallon quick fill flora flex bags. They only get to 48% volumetric water content. What's the driest you would see during gen steering?
Jason [00:49:19]:
I mean, I would be comfortable at running down to 20% water content in there. As far as an average across the.
Kaisha [00:49:25]:
Board, yes, I would have the exact same answer.
Seth [00:49:30]:
The only time that I would say.
Kaisha [00:49:31]:
There'S an exception to that rule is.
Seth [00:49:33]:
If two, three weeks into flower, my plant height is all over the place.
Kaisha [00:49:37]:
And I'm having trouble with uniformity at that point.
Seth [00:49:40]:
I'm probably going to call that dryback or cut it more at 25%. 25% vwc. Not total dryback, but that way I know, like, hey, if I'm plugged into a plant that looks a little bit.
Kaisha [00:49:52]:
Smaller and I got some bigger ones, I'm going to call it at 25.
Seth [00:49:55]:
Because that bigger one might already be.
Kaisha [00:49:56]:
Down at, like, 18, and I don't.
Seth [00:49:58]:
Want to push it down to 20 and then have any plants start to hit that temporary wilting point, because although.
Kaisha [00:50:03]:
Cocoa is more forgiving, we've got a.
Seth [00:50:06]:
Wider temporary wilting point range. Anytime you do enter temporary wilting point with a plant, you are still leaving production time on the table. That plant's shutting down. It's not metabolizing, and it's not growing for whatever period of time that it's.
Kaisha [00:50:19]:
Entered that moisture range. Yeah.
Jason [00:50:21]:
On that being said, fluoroplex, I think they offer usually two different field capacity based medias on there. That 45. I think they call it 45% field capacity. That in a two gallon, that's usually a great sized media for a highly productive plant.
Kaisha [00:50:41]:
Cool, you guys, thank you for that follow up. All right, we have another question from iron armor. They want to know what plant density and defoliation strategy would you recommend to help get as much a grade buds as possible? Big to small nug ratio.
Kaisha [00:50:59]:
Yeah.
Jason [00:50:59]:
So it is kind of a balance, because obviously, we want as much plant matter out of the volume of the room as we possibly can get. So most of the time, we're looking at ranges of, like, 0.6 plants per square foot. As far as the plant density, it's really going to be very strain dependent. It's going to be light intensity dependent. It's going to be room constraints dependent as well. So there's a lot that goes into the play when we're calculating, all right, what is the optimal there as far as getting the best a to b ratio? That's usually going to be about amount of light penetration, right. So if we have our plants spaced out a little bit farther, typically we're going to have better off access, light penetration when we're looking at that lower canopy. And same thing with the deleafing practices.
Jason [00:51:51]:
Usually when we strip harder, we're going to get higher amounts of a bud versus b bud in that ratio. That being said, is obviously, does that increased ratio, does it actually jeopardize our overall yield? What's the labor costs that are going into this? So it is that balance of. All right, well, if we space our plants out too far, we're not going to have quite as many plants. We may not get as much yield. And then same thing with deleafing. If we do hard deleafing, sure it's going to increase our ratio, but do we get an overall loss in total weight as well? And how much labor can we attribute into this room?
Seth [00:52:29]:
Typically I find the best quality at.
Kaisha [00:52:31]:
Around, if we're going on a per.
Seth [00:52:32]:
Light basis, nine to twelve plants per.
Kaisha [00:52:34]:
Light adjust a little bit, strain dependent. And then just like Jason said, you.
Seth [00:52:38]:
Got to look at your market and figure out how much money are you going to spend on those deleafing practices. And then what can you actually do with your bud? Now if you're in a market situation where that's your only product that you.
Kaisha [00:52:49]:
Can sell is a grade bud, then.
Seth [00:52:51]:
Of course it's worth it to deleaf hard. Typically we talk about doing a lollipop on day one or negative one of flower, bring it up to about three.
Kaisha [00:52:58]:
Nodes, eliminate, really get rid of the.
Seth [00:53:02]:
Buds you're not going to keep anyways as early as possible. And what that's doing is just maximizing the amount of canopy that's getting the most, best quality, highest intensity light.
Kaisha [00:53:13]:
Beyond that, strain dependent.
Seth [00:53:16]:
That is really what it comes down to. We always talk about crop registration, but.
Kaisha [00:53:20]:
I know in my experience I've grown a handful of strains that I could.
Seth [00:53:25]:
Almost not touch them and still be getting at the worst, an upper b grade bud down low, not getting any, really any loose buds. And then there's other plants where if.
Kaisha [00:53:35]:
That was my goal, I would actually.
Seth [00:53:37]:
Kind of be running a higher intensity and defoliate really hard because I know on those particular strains, if I don't defoliate hard, I'm going to have a.
Kaisha [00:53:45]:
Much higher ratio of bee buds.
Seth [00:53:47]:
And if I don't have an extraction.
Kaisha [00:53:49]:
Outlet or joint line or something like.
Seth [00:53:52]:
That to put those bee buds into, I'm going to end up throwing them away.
Kaisha [00:53:56]:
So that's kind of where your mind needs to be in balancing which. But like Jason said, you're also going.
Seth [00:54:03]:
To be leaving a little bit of yield on the table. If you're going to go really hard.
Kaisha [00:54:07]:
On the deleafing strategies or defoliation, I should say pruning, prune your plants.
Seth [00:54:14]:
Don't just rip all the leaves off.
Kaisha [00:54:17]:
Don't. Thank you guys for that. And actually just want to shout out really quickly, YouTube poll that we ran here, we asked our viewers what type of license do they operate with? And we have 50 50 med and rec represented. So glad to have you all. Welcome. Going to keep going. Actually, on the topic of hard leaf stripping, this question came in to slow down stretch during first three weeks of flower. Do you recommend a hard leaf strip day 14 through 16?
Jason [00:54:47]:
I personally don't in that timeline and simply because I've got other strategies in order to reduce the amount of stretch.
Kaisha [00:54:55]:
Right.
Jason [00:54:55]:
I'm trying to stack those ecs. Do generative strategies also have some amounts of environmental and light intensity dials to turn in order to reduce how much? Maybe some plant cleanup. But what we have to consider is how does the plant respond to that deleafing in that timeline? This is a time where we definitely want to induce the creation of budset. This is when we want to basically tell that plant, hey, I want your morphology to be usable flower. And so that means that the cues that we're giving that plant need to establish the hormone balance that is more reproductive. And usually deleafing practices are not going to be the ones that are producing a more reproductive hormone.
Seth [00:55:42]:
Yeah, I mean, that's really a strong thing to consider is when you start popping those leafs off that plant in that time frame, there's a few things happening.
Kaisha [00:55:49]:
Number one, logically, that plant's got to.
Seth [00:55:51]:
Regrow foliage in order to take in light and produce sugar to grow buds.
Kaisha [00:55:55]:
Right. So right there, we're not necessarily slowing down stretch.
Seth [00:56:00]:
In fact, a lot of times we're promoting it, but we're actually just slowing overall plant growth down. So that can actually really hurt your yield and force the plant to put.
Kaisha [00:56:08]:
Resources into foliage production more than bud.
Seth [00:56:11]:
Production at the time. The other thing that can happen, especially if you're going in and just popping.
Kaisha [00:56:15]:
Leaves off at the base of the petty oil, a lot of times you'll.
Seth [00:56:19]:
See certain strains especially or depending on.
Kaisha [00:56:22]:
How tough your plants are.
Seth [00:56:23]:
A lot of stringing is what I call it, pretty ubiquitous term in the industry. And if I say that pretty much anyone here knows what I mean. When you pop a bud off or.
Kaisha [00:56:30]:
Not a butt out of leaf, the.
Seth [00:56:32]:
Base of the pettyle, you have a string that comes down and you go, oh, that's what they make rope out of.
Kaisha [00:56:37]:
Sure, when that happens, plants don't heal in the same way we do.
Seth [00:56:43]:
When plants scar, they just grow over the whole wound basically. And when that happens, when callus production.
Kaisha [00:56:49]:
Happens in plants, it also produces and.
Seth [00:56:51]:
Distributes oxygen throughout the plant, which can actually cause the plant to stretch more. Even though you're pulling those leaves off and it's transpiring less. Each of these plants responses, hormonally at least have an effect on the overall plant morphology. And sometimes it's less intuitive than you would think. Pulling the leaves off would seem to slow the whole plant down. But a lot of times we are actually inducing the cells in the areas.
Kaisha [00:57:16]:
So on the stem where we rip those leaves off, once that callus starts.
Seth [00:57:20]:
Forming, we have that higher oxen concentration. Those cells in that area are physically going to elongate and that is what stretch is.
Kaisha [00:57:28]:
So I would advise against it.
Seth [00:57:31]:
Typically anytime you have to touch a.
Kaisha [00:57:33]:
Plant, you're throwing money out the window. Essentially you have to pay for that somehow.
Seth [00:57:38]:
And then the timing of that particular.
Kaisha [00:57:41]:
Technique application can either have a great benefit or a pretty reductive effect on your overall yield.
Kaisha [00:57:54]:
Great considerations to keep in mind. Thank you for that. All right, got a couple of minutes left. Try to squeeze in two more questions here. This one came from pat. To follow up to the leaf surface temp conversation, I think they're wondering, they want to clarify. VPD is the most important leaf surface temp would be the red.
Jason [00:58:12]:
So go ahead.
Seth [00:58:14]:
I was going to say those are two interrelated things or very related things that we're looking at.
Kaisha [00:58:19]:
And really we talk about VPD in.
Seth [00:58:22]:
The room when we're talking about the ranges that we're talking about generally, because that's the easiest to measure. What we really want to do at the end of the day is target the VPD on that actual leaf surface. Everything revolves around that one to 2 mm around the plant surface. That's what the plant is actually experiencing.
Kaisha [00:58:39]:
So if your plant temperature is going.
Seth [00:58:43]:
Up drastically compared to your room VPD, that means your leaf surface VPD is.
Kaisha [00:58:50]:
Higher than what you're measuring in the room.
Seth [00:58:52]:
So it is a good red line, and one of my main ones is if I start to go over about 84 degrees leaf surface temp, and if.
Kaisha [00:59:00]:
I cross 86, I know I'm going.
Seth [00:59:02]:
To start seeing some effects on plant morphology.
Kaisha [00:59:07]:
Amazing. Thank you for that. All right, got one more question before we wrap it up. This came from Tyler. They want to know, do you sterilize your cocoa slabs prior to planting? I don't trust coas claiming they're pathogen free. If so, what do you recommend? I run one gallon dutch plantain or floraflex.
Jason [00:59:27]:
I mean, cost effectively, probably not going to be able to sterilize your cocoa, especially if you're in quick fill bags. You plan on taking them all out of the bags and running them through a furnace. For most of those manufacturers, using a popular manufacturer is a safer bet in order to make sure that they are sterilized. Sometimes I think it's you just find a good one that you have had success with and go from there.
Seth [00:59:59]:
Yeah, I mean, what we're looking at here really is kind of focusing on the difference between two words, sterilizations and sanitizing. Sterilizing and sanitizing. So just like Jason said, if you had a big oven or a giant pressure cooker, a huge walk in autoclave, you could just roll a rolling shelf into with all your blocks. That'd be great.
Kaisha [01:00:17]:
You could sterilize them in commercial production.
Seth [01:00:20]:
What's a little more practical is some sanitation procedures, either using xerotol, CL two, sanitate. There's a bunch of different products on the market that you can use as.
Kaisha [01:00:28]:
A general sanitizer that are fairly plant safe.
Seth [01:00:32]:
What you would do in that case is hydrate your media using that sanitizing solution at a rate that's not over what any manufacturer recommends, or at least.
Kaisha [01:00:40]:
Let your buddy test it out if.
Seth [01:00:41]:
They'Re going off label on those applications. But what we're looking at is soaking that block with a sanitizing product that.
Kaisha [01:00:48]:
Typically is going to off gas, such.
Seth [01:00:50]:
As some sort of peroxide action.
Kaisha [01:00:52]:
So that's about the most commercially viable application of that.
Seth [01:00:58]:
I would love to be able to.
Kaisha [01:00:59]:
Pasteurize all of my incoming cocoa, but.
Seth [01:01:02]:
Again, that's not very economically practical because the other thing too is if you.
Kaisha [01:01:07]:
Are going to sterilize these, you're going to have to do it.
Seth [01:01:11]:
You're going to hydrate them in the process, most likely, unless you're canning them practically.
Kaisha [01:01:16]:
So food for thought there.
Seth [01:01:19]:
But it is a relevant thing, especially as we see regulations around things like.
Kaisha [01:01:24]:
Aspergillus getting tighter and tighter.
Seth [01:01:27]:
That is an entry point for potential pathogens and it's definitely worth staying on.
Kaisha [01:01:33]:
Top of for sure.
Kaisha [01:01:36]:
All right, we just kicked 2024 off on a high note. Seth and Jason, thank you so much for another great session. Chris the producer, thank you for holding it down with me and thank you all for joining us for this week's Aroya office hours. To learn more about Aroya, book a demo at Arroya IO and our team will show you the ins and outs of the ultimate cannabis cultivation platform. Got crop steering or cultivation questions you want us to cover? Drop them anytime in the Arroya app. Email us at sales at arroya IO or send us a DM via Instagram, Facebook or LinkedIn. We want to hear from you. And if you're a fan of the pod, be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel so you never miss an episode.
Kaisha [01:02:13]:
See you at the next one. Thanks, everybody. Bye.