Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Rethink Culture is the podcast that shines the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture. Virtually all of the business leaders who make headlines today do so because of their company performance. Yet, the people and the culture of a company is at least as important as its performance. It's time that we shine the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture and are putting people and culture at the forefront.
[00:00:08 – 00:01:40] Andreas:
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening. Welcome to another episode of Rethink Culture, the podcast that shines the spotlight on leaders of businesses that people love to work for. My name is Andreas Konstantinou. I'm a micromanager turned servant leader with a passion for workplace culture. At Rethink Culture, we help companies build a high-performance culture by finding what stops our people and teams from doing their best work. Today, I have the pleasure of welcoming David Tomás. David is an entrepreneur, author, and business angel with over 15 years’ experience mentoring and investing in startups. He also has his very successful company in marketing called Cyberclick, and an author of two books, The Happiest Company in the World, and The Millennial Diary, which are both about creating fulfilling work environments. He has fingers in many, many pies, so he hosts a podcast called Lunes Inspiradores, which means inspiring Mondays, and he interviews their people who like Mondays. He tells me he survived a failed parachute, which must have been a scary experience. He's very much into sports. He likes to run about 20 kilometres a day running and walking, and he also loves to contribute to help others grow, and he spends a lot of time mentoring other startups and founders. Very welcome to the Rethink Culture podcast, David.
[00:01:41 – 00:01:43] David:
Thank you, Andreas. I'm glad to be here with you.
[00:01:43 – 00:01:48] Andreas:
First, tell me what happened with the parachute. How scared were you?
[00:01:49 – 00:03:05] David:
Yeah, that was my 30th birthday. That was my present, and it was a tandem jump, so you're not in control, so you're jumping with another person, and it was actually my first jump. So I noticed that something was wrong because we were not stabilized, and then suddenly we were very close to the ground. The person in charge told me, "Get this rope." I got the rope, and then we again fell off, and luckily we were able to open the second parachute. But for, I would say, three, four seconds, I thought I was going to die because I was so close to the ground, and it was a free fall. So I have to say, it was calming because I thought, "Okay, I'm going to die now." And that's it. I've lived 30 years, and that's it. I was not afraid in the moment. Later you can reflect on that, but it was a good experience. I could die any minute, and I had the chance to have the experience.
[00:03:06 – 00:03:11] Andreas:
Did your life change as a result? Did you change how you think about things?
[00:03:13 – 00:03:57] David:
Yeah, I'm sure I did. Yeah, not in a reflective process, but it has been with me since then seeing that you're going to die so close. So yeah, I have to say that in that moment, I realized when I was, I think it was 16, I had a car accident, which was as well, could have been quite brutal, and I was able to be alive. So both occasions made me think about life and how it can go away in one minute. So yeah, it transforms you. It makes you have a different perspective.
[00:03:58 – 00:04:07] Andreas:
And then you told me, you, I think, realized one day that the business you were building was not fun to work in, right?
[00:04:08 – 00:04:50] David:
Yes, that's correct. That's around 2003, I believe. We started the company, and I realized that we were not a place where you were, I was enjoying and neither the rest of the team. So we had poor communication, lack of direction, and we were not having fun. And at some point, I said, like, OK, now this is my responsibility. I need to change, and I need to learn in order to create an environment where I really want to work and I want to enjoy what I do.
[00:04:51 – 00:04:55] Andreas:
So what did you do? What were the first steps?
[00:04:56 – 00:06:45] David:
The first things were to try to learn what things I had to learn in terms of how can I change the way we work. So I started a process of learning, and I started trying to understand what were the companies that were successful, and especially the ones that made their teams proud, aligned, and fulfilled were doing. So I started a research process. It took me a few years, but step by step, we were learning things that were making the environment better. And the first thing that I learned was about values and culture and how you create that. I had no idea. So the way I had created the culture was inorganically, it was created by the people that we hired, but there was no plan, no alignment. So we started working on this. OK, what's the type of culture we want to have, and how we're going to make sure that we are able to create this culture. And what I learned is that the hiring process is paramount to achieve that, especially if you are small. At that time, we were just maybe 20 people, and we started to make changes and started to hire align with the type of attitudes and values that we wanted to see at the company.
[00:06:46 – 00:06:56] Andreas:
What is something that you're currently proud about? What is like a habit or a ritual or something that happens at Cyberclick that you're proud of?
[00:06:57 – 00:10:41] David:
Well, the thing I'm most proud of is when people say, "Wow, I'm very happy here. I have enjoyed it." Or even when someone leaves, when someone leaves and says, "It's been very tough," because it's difficult to find something that can be comparable. And sometimes people have other aspirations, right? Like, "I want to work in a multinational company with 5,000 people, and 20 offices." Well, that's not our situation. But when that happens, and for them it's difficult, "I want to do something different, but it's so hard to take this decision." I'm very proud of that. Now, one of the practices that we've been recognized for is what we call the Traffic Light Meeting. And every week, we review the traffic lights, and it means that we ask every person in the team, "How was the previous week?" It was red, a yellow or green, and then we have a conversation about it. It's like, "Okay, what can we do to change that?" If someone is in red, that's something important, and we need to stop, and we'll just stop, like, "Okay, what are we going to do to change that?" And if we have someone in yellow, it's okay. If it's repetitive, we need to really stop and decide what to do. And that meeting is very, for us, very important, first of all, because we ask the team how they are feeling at the company, so how was the previous week. But then we have the conversation on how to improve and what to change, and I believe those conversations are necessary. I think, in general, in life, and particularly in a corporation, we don't have really open conversations. People think something that they are afraid of letting that know, or maybe the other person will react or might affect them. And what we try to do is, like, if you feel something, if you have something that is not right for you, just share it. And we'll talk about it. I mean, if that's something we can change, that's perfect. If that's something we cannot change, and it really affects you, we're going to try to find a way so we can help you and maybe look for another job or change the position in the company, but try to find a solution, a constructive way of doing it. What I believe, at least, the perception I have is that many companies is like, "Okay, something is wrong, but I'm not going to share it. I don't want to say it because there might be consequences, or it doesn't make sense for me." And I think that's a shame. We should have a culture where you should speak up if there's something that you don't like or you don't enjoy, but in a constructive way. I mean, if you are constructive and, "Okay, I don't like that for X, Y, or Z, but I have this idea that I think we can change that," we can have an open conversation. And the way we work is trying to be collaborative. It's not that I'm going to impose anything. So it's more you that you're in that team, and you need to decide how to do things. So it's your responsibility to speak up. If you're not speaking up and you are complaining, well, that's your fault in reality.
[00:10:42 – 00:11:03] Andreas:
So most people, I guess, in a traffic light meeting would always report green, right? For fear of not reporting yellow or red. So how do you get them to be more vulnerable? And how do you make it safe for people to fail and say, "I'm not doing well. Something has gone wrong."
[00:11:03 – 00:12:52] David:
Yeah. So the way we did it at the beginning, we started more than 15 years ago, was about... We did it without... It was anonymous, so you wouldn't share your name when you were sharing the traffic lights. What happened one year after working this way is that since we had an open conversation, people said, "Well, why don't we share our name?" Because at the end of the day, we're having a conversation, and we know it's for the good, this conversation. It's not like, "I'm just complaining, but we're going to try to find a solution." So for us, the way it's been like, "Okay, your opinion is your opinion, so you're able to speak it up and nothing is going to happen if you are... Nothing bad is going to happen if you're red." What's going to happen if you're red and you don't share it, we're not going to change anything. So next week is going to be the same, and the following week is going to be the same. Unless you speak up, nothing is going to change, because at least and that's part of our culture. Anything I do and the rest of our colleagues, we know it's not with a bad intention. So if I'm doing something and it's affecting you, it's because I'm not aware. Because if you let me know that this is affecting you, I'm going to be able to change it. So people see that we have these open conversations, and I want to believe that they are really honest, and they open up. I don't think anyone is afraid, like, "Oh, because I say I'm red, I'm going to be fired from the company."
[00:12:54 – 00:13:10] Andreas:
What are some of the values you got from your family as you were growing up that you saw later becoming part of your identity and your leadership style? You mentioned to me things about curiosity and perseverance and responsibility.
[00:13:11 – 00:14:06] David:
Yeah, those three would be very important. Responsibility is like, "Okay, what you have is your word, so if you commit to something, make sure that you deliver what you've committed and be responsible." And then curiosity is another big topic. Like, "Okay, always try to learn." And I remember that message was repetitive at home is, "Anyone can teach you something." So it doesn't matter if it's the richest person in the city or is the poorest person in the city. Everyone can teach you something. So always be open to learn, to listen. And after that, take your own conclusions. But never treat someone as you know more, and they cannot teach you anything.
[00:14:07 – 00:14:21] Andreas:
And how are you seeing this manifest in the companies you built? How do you see these values make for different, unique, or more fulfilling environments?
[00:14:23 – 00:16:35] David:
Yeah, no, I think they are very useful. I have to say that for me, there's no better or worse values. So everyone needs to have your own. In my case, those are important. Another one was to be a good person, right? Try always to help other people and don't think only about yourself. And for instance, this is a value that we have in the company, that it's like always be really a team player, like help other people and don't think only about yourself. And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter the values you have. What matters is that the people that come to the company are aligned with those values, okay? And that you feel comfortable in those values. I mean, I have a friend that he's very comfortable with the conflicts, the problems, the competition, and that's where he thrives. And that's not good nor bad. I mean, the important part is that you are in a company that really puts competition in the centre, and you feel comfortable competing against your peers. That's not something that we do at Cyberclick, and we're not better for that, but we try to be collaborative because in my case, I prefer to collaborate other than compete. And so when we've been hiring and the people that we formed the company, when we decided the values, we all agreed that this was something important. And we're going to put that in the centre. But I think it's important not to judge other people's values because are your values, I mean, they are not right or wrong. Are yours? And you thrive on those values? That's perfect. I have nothing to say.
[00:16:36 – 00:16:39] Andreas:
You don't need to criticize other people's values, right?
[00:16:39 – 00:16:40] David:
Exactly.
[00:16:40 – 00:16:41] Andreas:
You just need to be true on to our own.
[00:16:42 – 00:18:28] David:
And yeah, and respect their values. Those are your values, they are different than mine. I remember I was talking to a friend of mine and was complaining about someone that was treating unfairly to another person. And it's, okay, that's unfair to you. And maybe it's unfair to the other person, but we don't know the background of that other person. And for them, that might be normal. We don't have to judge it. You don't like it. Okay. That's fair. But are there values? It's not that there's one value that is good and there's one that is bad. We all have good and bad values and behaviours. And what we need to see is, okay, how do I create a group of people where we are aligned on the core things? How we want to innovate, how we want to serve our clients, how we want to treat each other. And we align with that. That's fine. You were mentioning my podcast. I remember a few weeks ago, I interviewed an entrepreneur that bought a company, a traditional company like Industrial. And he said, you know, the big change I made was not insulting the employees because the previous CEO was insulting the employees. Okay. We all might agree that the majority of people don't want to be insulted. But who knows? Maybe there's people that get motivated being insulted. I don't know. And I don't care. I don't want to be insulted. And I don't want to work for someone who's insulting me. But who knows? I don't want to judge if that's...
[00:18:28 – 00:18:34] Andreas:
I get it. Do your customers notice that people are happy at work?
[00:18:36 – 00:21:12] David:
Yeah. They notice their involvement, right? They want to go farther than other companies. And I think that's something that is reflected. And I've been told that for several clients. Like, oh, it really makes a difference. I've worked with other companies like yours. And the level of commitment and the engagement that people have is different. But for me, this is common sense, right? I mean, in our case, we are in technology and marketing and sales. So it's half technology, half people. But people are the core of what we do because even the people is who build the technology. And if you're not motivated, if you don't feel appreciated, it's very difficult that you can bring your best to the office, right? You're going to do, well, the bare minimum and you don't want to commit. But if you're able to do a job that is motivating for you, you feel treated in a respectful way, you feel that your peers value you, you're going to bring your best self because you will have more energy. You will have more willingness to do things. So that's what for me is common sense. And that's why, yeah, sorry. That's why when we have our retreats and we gather the team, it's like what we do. I mean, you need to be aligned. I mean, and you need to like the job you do. If you don't like it, we can look for another job at the company, or we can help you change. But it doesn't make sense for you to be doing something that you don't enjoy. So that's your responsibility. Our responsibility is to create the environment where you can thrive, by doing something that you are motivated. And otherwise, it's like wasting your life. I mean, luckily, at least in our sector, nowadays, everyone can find a job. I mean, you could find a job. You’re a high-skill person. So you will find a job. They might pay you more, they might pay you less, but you will find a job. So if you don't like it, what you're doing, just change because it's not worthy.
[00:21:14 – 00:21:31] Andreas:
So you said that employers are responsible for creating the environment where people can thrive. Who is responsible for creating that? Is it the company? Is it HR? Is it the CEO? Is it the people themselves? So where do new initiatives about how you work come from?
[00:21:31 – 00:23:33] David:
So for me, it's everyone. Everyone is responsible. It's not only the CEO. You as the CEO need to initiate the path and start the fire. But after that is the responsibility of everyone. I mean, it's impossible to have a good environment if I think that, well, this is not for me. It's the responsibility of another person. That's why I don't like HR as a concept because for many managers is, oh, no, this is HR. This is not me. No, this is you. I mean, it's your responsibility and is your team's responsibility. For me, I think you need to construct that together with your team. It's like, guys, how are we going to do it? How are we going to make sure that we create this culture and this environment that can help us and make us thrive? That could even be made in a small team inside a big organization that has not this culture. I remember talking to a friend of mine who worked for the government. And in the government, sometimes there's people that are not happy, but they are there because they have this thick salary for all their life and they just try to pass until they get to 65 or 67. For me, well, that's a very sad way of living because you're sad and you're making the people around you sad. But anyways, some people decide to live this way. But this friend of mine, she decided, okay, I'm going to take my team. Let's make sure that we as a team, that we are 10 people. We have a culture where we have trust, respect, help each other. We celebrate. And even though they are part of a big government organization, they're a small team. They're celebrating their winnings and they're having a different relationship than the overall company.
[00:23:33 – 00:23:40] Andreas:
So you can have a micro, you can have a very positive micro culture in a very traditional government organization.
[00:23:41 – 00:24:10] David:
If the group is willing to do that, right? I mean, if you as a group, the 10 people, 20, whatever you decide you align yourself. And guys, in our space, in our relationship, when I work this way in a constructive way, is doable. You will have challenges. There might be another team that are really, I don't know, disrespectful or they are not collaborative. You will have to deal with that. But within your walls, you could be really fulfilled.
[00:24:11 – 00:24:20] Andreas:
Has it been a straight line for you, building a fulfilling culture at Cyberclick? Or has there been bumps on the road, like leadership mistakes?
[00:24:21 – 00:24:54] David:
Yeah, of course. It's been a long process. I don't consider that we have figured out. So we have some things and some rituals that we follow that work for us. But this is something that you always need to be vigilant, and companies are constantly changing, right? It's people that can lead, people that are higher. So if you hire like five people that they are not aligned with the culture, you can destroy what you have achieved in just a few weeks.
[00:24:55 – 00:24:58] Andreas:
What's a personal leadership mistake that you've made?
[00:25:00 – 00:26:52] David:
For me, it's in the hiring process. That's where I've made the most mistakes. And I think it's the basis. If you have thought the hiring process, make sure that it works, make several points of control, things work out. One mistake I used to do in the past, I don't know. I assume, I don't know why, but I assumed that everyone was responsible. Everyone was committed. And that's not the case. I mean, there's people that they are not committed because they are not doing what they are, what they enjoy to do. It's like, okay, I'm doing this. And if you don't figure that out, you will have someone who is in the company. Well, just for the sake of having a salary. But they are not going to try to do their best. And I've committed this mistake several times. I have to say, I need to train myself to be pessimistic. Because I like to be more optimistic than pessimistic. I like to have... I like to talk about 51%, like 51% optimistic 49% pessimistic. And there's a 1% more. And that 1% makes me always think on the positive side. And then on a hiring process, that's bad because I always see the positive thing of the person. Right? It's, oh, and has this experience has told me that. And for me, it's very easy to convince me to hire you. And I need to make the effort like, no, really, I'm not going to hire you. Now you need really to convince me strongly. And that's been a mistake for me that even today, sometimes I make this mistake.
[00:26:53 – 00:26:57] Andreas:
The founders you coach, what mistakes do you see them making often?
[00:27:00 – 00:28:15] David:
Probably is the communication. For instance. I was last week mentoring a startup that they were part of an accelerator. And they contacted me after a year. We have this issue with the team. And I helped them design like a little bit like their all hands meeting that they had important things to share. And they were afraid of sharing information. It was like, no, I don't want to share much information. And I said, it's better to have an open culture where you share everything. And be honest, this is their reality. This is what we try to do. This is the difficulties that I foresee. And this is the path we're going to try to follow and make people participate. That will be for me the other mistake. Like, I mean, at the end, you are the CEO, you are the founder. Obviously, you need to have the vision but try to make things as collaborative as possible. Because nowadays in a knowledge economy, everyone really can add value to the strategy and the actions that you're granting.
[00:28:16 – 00:29:36] Andreas:
Absolutely. I had a similar conversation with a client today about whether we should share the weaknesses in full detail with their managers in the company. And he was worried whether the managers will actually use that information in wrong ways with the staff. And my response was, well, it's a choice. You can have a parent-child relationship with your staff. And you can hold information like you hold information from young children because they don't understand the context. Or you can have an adult-to-adult relationship and say, well, if you want to have access to more transparency and understand what's happening with the culture, I was measuring the culture of the company, you also have responsibility. And you need to treat that information very carefully. Because people that are around you might not have the full context of how to interpret that. So you need to be very careful. And therefore, if you treat the other person as an adult and the other person has the maturity to act as an adult, then you can have co-creation, collaboration, and build more than the sum of the parts.
[00:29:37 – 00:30:51] David:
Yeah, totally. We all are full of weaknesses and things that we do wrong. So why hide them? It's okay. I'm aware of the things that I'm not good at. Let's have an open conversation. And then, for me, the point is not solving your weakness. It's try to emphasize your strength. So I know a lot of things where I'm very weak, I'm not good. Well, why do I have to do that? It's better to say, okay, this I'm going to do wrong. For instance, the following up with the priorities with the team, I'm not good. There's someone else in the team who's doing that that really enjoys doing this type of job defining. So why try to hide that? I know I'm not good at that. Then I'm very good at other things. I'm very good at understanding the strategies, the opportunities, defining what we can develop next. So I'm going to try to focus on that area and not hiding my weaknesses.
[00:30:53 – 00:31:00] Andreas:
If you have a team, which I imagine you have, do you spend more time with the high performers or the under-performers?
[00:31:01 – 00:33:09] David:
Yeah, that's a good question. For me, I rather spend time with the high-performers, and under-performance... Well, the thing is we don't have a system really to measure if you are under-performing over or under. We have a feedback mechanism between the teams where they share information. For me, I'll try to spend always time with people that are motivated. And they're one of the things. For instance, now, obviously in our space, AI is radically changing the way we're working. We are developing different projects with AI that we've been working for a while. So now I'll try to spend as much time as possible with people working on those projects. And they are really passionate about them. I try to spend time with people more that over/under-performing, that are engaged. I don't want to spend time with someone who is not engaged on what they do. And the only time I want to spend is, "Okay, let's figure out something that really motivates you, or let's figure out if we make sense as a company for you because, I don't know, we had cases that what we're doing is not fulfilling for you. We had cases, someone who is really doing more creative illustration. We don't do that. Sometimes we have a project, but it's a small part of our job. If this is what you want to do, it's better that we try to help you and encourage you to do that in some other place, by yourself or in another company. But not try to be in this company doing something that is not interesting to you, and you always are going to under-perform because you don't have the energy and the willingness to go that extra mile that is needed.
[00:33:10 – 00:33:58] Andreas:
With AI that you just mentioned, I as well as many other CEOs had an aha moment recently when there was this Shopify CEO email leaked that said, "There's not going to be any new hires in the company unless you can prove that the job can be done with AI." And to me, this is an eye-opener because it starts to unpack the role of a leader, especially a CEO in the adoption of AI. Because is it something that we leave to our managers? Is it something that we leave to our staff? Or is it something that needs to be influenced and inspired top-down? What's your view?
[00:34:00 – 00:36:54] David:
Yeah, I think it needs to go all over the company. So for me, I as well saw this message, and I shared it with the team on a meeting like, "Guys, this is what companies are doing." For me, if you're going to be a professional nowadays, you need to know how to use AI. It's something critical. So from one side, it has to be part of your day. So you need to make sure that you have part of your day, that you are learning and using AI. And the company needs to allow you so much spare time to do that. It's like, "Okay, guys, if you're working, let's say, 40 hours per week, let's make sure that you have four or five where you really can use AI and can be testing." But for me, it has to be everyone. The way we've done it is all the teams, they have one AI representative that is sharing with the rest of the teams, but it's the team responsible for testing things. And they need to test different things every month and share them with us. We have like a all hands meeting for AI, where we share what we've been testing, what we've learned, what we can pass from one team to another, and how this is helping us improve. But yeah, I think it's going to have a big impact. I mean, if you are not able to use AI, it's difficult that you're going to be hired. For me, there are different points of view. There's people that think it's going to be a disaster, and hundreds of jobs or thousands of jobs are going to disappear. I think, yes, they will disappear, but we will create new jobs. There will be new things that we are not doing nowadays, but it's, I don't know, an agent orchestrator. There will be so many new things. I mean, if you take even the last 20 years, right, we got so many new jobs that were created that didn't exist. I don't know, all the data scientists, that was invented at the beginning of the 2000s. Yeah, there were scientists and there were data people, but we didn't have what we had. All the social media, all the content creators, there are so many things that they've been created that I see AI as an opportunity to do things that nowadays we cannot afford to do that are too expensive. And that will generate new jobs that we don't know yet.
[00:36:55 – 00:37:50] Andreas:
I agree, and I would also even risk saying that it's not just a zero-sum game, that there will be as many jobs created as are lost, but even a positive sum game in the sense that it will be a test in the next few years of what we as people are irreplaceable at. And I think what we are irreplaceable at is being human, taking care of each other, helping, leading, coaching, supporting each other. I think the jobs that have to do with caring, whether it is the elder or teaching, will still be run by people because that's how we communicate. That's what connects us.
[00:37:50 – 00:39:11] David:
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I wrote not long ago that it will make us more humans. AI will put humanity in the centre, and we will value that. We'll value the connections, even for companies, the level of service, the attention that you pay off, that will be at the centre. And I'm convinced it's going to have a big effect. I was thinking while you were talking that for me, there's something I love about my work. I mean, when someone has a problem and comes to me like, I have this big issue. And I don't know, when someone comes with a problem, a personal problem, it's like, okay, the company doesn't matter, the results doesn't matter, the revenue doesn't matter. Now we're concentrated in your problem and how I can be of service, and I can help you. And I think that's going to happen more and more. The technology will allow us to be more human, like, okay, Andreas, how I can help you, how I can be of value to you? And that will be a positive outcome of AI.
[00:39:12 – 00:39:25] Andreas:
What's one thing you believe CEOs should be rethinking? Those CEOs that are not so intentional about how they take care of their people?
[00:39:26 – 00:40:39] David:
Yeah, for me, something you said about treating people as adults. So don't be afraid of sharing information and retaining information, like treat them as adults, give them the maximum data as possible and even ask them, right? So if you don't have a clear answer, try to make it as participative as possible so your team can share their opinion. And sometimes you might not be aligned with the end result, but I believe the majority of times you would be surprised. For instance, I remember sometimes the team, in our case, decided goals that were more difficult than the ones I would have set by myself. It's like, okay, if I was setting the goal, I would have said 10 and they come like, no, no, that's going to be 12. So don't be afraid of asking your team and make them participate in the strategy, the decisions, and listen to them.
[00:40:41 – 00:40:50] Andreas:
David, you've written two books, and you have a company that you're proud about the culture. What would make you proud in the next 10 years?
[00:40:52 – 00:41:36] David:
Well, for me, it would be in a professional way, is keep growing and sharing what we've learned and making possible that other companies follow this path. And luckily, every day there's more and more companies that put people at the centre. Personally, my kids are now 15, 12, and 9. So 10 years from now, I'd like them to see as responsible young adults that enjoy what they do, that they've been able to find a path that they are motivated.
[00:41:38 – 00:41:40] Andreas:
And David, where can people find out more about you?
[00:41:41 – 00:41:52] David:
So mainly LinkedIn, if they search David Tomás, Cyberclick, they will find me there. That's probably the place I'm more active or they can shoot me an email anytime.
[00:41:53 – 00:43:05] Andreas:
David, thank you for your sincerity and your eagerness to help people lead better lives at work. And I hope more companies follow your paradigm. To everyone listening, thank you for giving us your undivided attention. And I hope the conversation has inspired you to lead yourself and others into more fulfilling places and cultures at work. If you enjoyed the show as much as I enjoyed here discussing with David, please leave us a five-star rating because that's how more people get to find out about the show. Tell your friends about it. If you have any ideas you want to discuss, do drop me a line, andreas@rethinkculture.co. Or if you want to build a high-performance culture and you're worried, where you can start. And as I like to say at the end of every podcast, keep leading and creating better workplaces for you and especially those around you. Take care.