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Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, and most importantly, find joy.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free
Ride Free, where we talk to people who
have lived self-actualized lives on
their own terms, and find out how they
got there, what they do, how we can
get there, what we can learn from them.
How to live our best lives, find
our own definition of success,
and most importantly, find joy.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.
Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.
You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.
where we talk to people who are living
self-actualized lives, people who
are effectively living the dream,
, how have they managed to do it?
What does it mean for them, their dream?
, what can we learn from them?
, how can mentorship from them help us?
To achieve our dreams too, , and
to live free and ride free in
the way that's right for us.
So, , today I've got, Lisa Dison.
, Lisa Deon runs something rather
unique called the Equus Film Festival.
That's right.
It's a film festival dedicated to telling
stories, through the medium of the horse.
And, , people might think,
well, that's a bit niche.
That's a bit, you know, but actually, no.
It's one of those worlds that crosses
over into so many other worlds because
there's so many people that like horses,
and yet there's so many people that
like film and there's so many people
that like story, and there's so many
people that are either on the fringe
of that or right in the middle of it.
You, if you, if you look up any list of
Hollywood as you'll see that at least
half of them are into horses in some way.
And if you like, the horse represents,
I think, to humans, an idea of dream,
an idea of allegory, an idea of a lot
of people think about horses, , and
use terminology around horses.
Oh, she's a real stallion.
Oh, you know, he, he's a
bit of a wild stallion.
Oh, you know, rain reign in that thought.
Curb your enthusiasm.
, you know, all of these things
actually come from horses and.
Something like Equus Film Festival sits
square in the middle of, I think what
horses mean is a metaphor for humans.
But Lisa Tierson's made an
absolute success out of this.
, Lisa, thank you for coming on the show.
Hi Rupert.
Thank you for having me.
Oh, it's, it's, it's, it's such a treat.
Lisa, I've known you for quite a
while, 15 years or something like that.
Something like, I remember when, we were
meeting at horse shows, both of us are
enthusiasts of the Lucit horse breed.
and then I remember you saying,
oh yeah, I've got this idea.
I, I think I wanna do this film
festival, and yeah, it won't be, it
won't be, you know, anything big.
It's just, yeah, I just
kind of wanna give it a go.
And now it's huge and it's international.
So tell us how you got there.
Why, why, why, why did you
come up with this idea?
Lisa Diersen: You simply put, you and
your documentary about your son were the
reason that this film festival got started
and, and yeah, going back and thinking
back at, the Andalusian show in Texas
and seeing your film the first time, and
I remember being so moved because it, it
lit me up literally because I felt that.
Wow.
Here's what's missing in, in the world.
People don't feel enough empathy
for what someone else is going
through, whether it's the family
unit, what you all went through.
, now with us, with Josh, because I have
a Down syndrome grandson who we've made
a documentary about as well, the general
public doesn't, doesn't have that empathy.
When they see a family with this crying
screaming child, they automatically think,
oh, something's wrong with those parents.
Or get that kid in line.
And when I saw your documentary and I
saw the struggle, which it truly was at
that time, a, a struggle because it's a
journey that's led you so many places.
I went, oh my gosh, I want
everybody I know to see this film.
Because it, it, the story is so important
and not because it was a horse story,
because of course I love it cuz it's
a horse story, but mainly because of
the, the deeper felt message and kind
of what you were talking about earlier.
You know, I, how many films we've had
in the festival that center around
mental health issues, physical
limitations, veterans who, who
contemplate committing suicide.
Youth in Crisis, all of these,
this general public encompassing
our world of people in crisis.
And what's the thing that's
out there to help all of them?
It's the horse and it's telling those
stories with the horses and, and we've
had so many of those documentaries in
the festival and they're so powerful.
No matter where I show 'em or when
I show 'em, people leave in tears
because of the power of that.
So that's, that was the catalyst that made
the whole festival start Simply put you,
Rupert Isaacson: well, you're very kind.
and you know, it was amazing of you
to, to have us there with the Horse
Boy movie at the, at the first, at
the first film festival, in New York.
But there must have always been in your
mind, oh, , since you were a little girl.
Something around Story and Horse.
Take us back to when you were small.
What, did you have an idea like
this was something cooking or was it
an am Amal gum of, of other ideas?
What, what, what, what started it all off?
Lisa Diersen: Oh, I, well, I've
always, always been around horses.
My grandmother had horses, a pony.
I always had a little pony spark
plug was my first Pony's name.
And where did you grow
Rupert Isaacson: up, by the way,
Lisa Diersen: Lisa?
I grew up outside of Chicago in
a, in a suburb called La Grange.
But my parents' family
lived down in Kentucky.
So on my grandmother's farm, every
summer we'd go down and spend time
with the, with her at the farm
and the horses and, and the pony
and you know, always being around.
And we would always take this pony out and
create games and tell stories and, create
little alternate, towns and things to do.
And we were different people
with those, with the pony.
And to tell st tell storytelling, I
think somewhere in the back of my mind
always wanting to tell, tell stories or
at least share stories, has something
that's, I've always kind of always wanted
to, always had back there, percolating
then kind of life gets in the way and
I ended up in the engineering field of
all things, for, for quite a while.
And then building houses and the
horses were always the constant.
I always either had a horse or was riding
or involved with horses, involved with
teaching young people with pony club.
I went through many years of being, Un
mounted pony club instructor for all
the D level, for very, oh, there's the
Jack Russell for a, for a long time.
And then, , it's just always
has been there bringing
people together around horses.
Rupert Isaacson: What do you think
it is about the horse that serves as
this, , catalytic factor, with humans?
Because it does, it seems that
people don't even need to ride
to have a fascination, right,
Lisa Diersen: right.
With the horse.
And I, what is it, do you think?
Well, first of all, I believe that it's a
1200 pound electromagnetic field drawing
us in, and it's also a 1200 pound metaphor
for everything that's in our life.
but I, even with my friends, I had, and
I have quite a few friends that just have
a horse to have that horses, they, they
go and they'll brush the horse at night.
They'll do stuff with the horse.
They'll long line, they'll,
they'll do everything but ride the
horse and that's okay for them.
There's entire Facebook groups
dedicated to people who are just the
non ridden horse and everybody thinks
that it, you have to be in the horse
to, you have to ride the horse to
be into horses, and that's so wrong.
One of the things with the film festival
is people thought, well, you know,
the, the non, there's only so many
non or out there horse people riding
and they don't have hours in the day.
There's so many non-writing horse people
that are moved by these stories and
that magnetism of the horse that just
draws them in, , from watching Misty
of Shin Tea when we were kids and all
of those stories, there's just, we
talk, this is funny that you say that
cuz we talk about this all the time.
It's a, it's part of our con general
conversation when we have, our Mustang
summits or whatever, there's just
something about these horses and when
we use horses in the mental health
field and you see the results that
you can't get anywhere else with any
other metaphor tool or just even simple
talk therapy, you can't get there
where you can get there with a horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to me
about this business of being
in the electromagnetic field.
That's fascinating.
Okay, so you say the horse is a
1200 pound electromagnetic field.
How so and how does that benefit people?
Lisa Diersen: So when we're around another
human, basically you're, you're equal.
We're bo we're, you know, you're, whether
it's a big person or a little person,
basically your weights are 120 hundred.
30 pounds to each other.
You bring a horse in, it's 10 times what
energy and, and feeling that we are.
So I think that they, I, I just
think they help balance us that way.
It's, you can't, what, what
Rupert Isaacson: is, what is throwing out
that electromagnetic field that you're
Lisa Diersen: referring to?
What do I, I, well, I just think it's
an e I just think it's pure energy.
I think I, I can watch a horse
across an arena at a horse.
You can do this at a horse show.
Watch a horse.
One horse goes crazy.
Everybody around it feels it.
And if you're a, a, a more sensitive
person, temple Grandin comes to mind.
People who are really
sensitive can feel that.
when you get, when you're working with
horses a lot, you can feel when a horse is
un uncomfortable, you can feel that kind
of wave, that a mare standing in a field
with a bunch of other mares and babies.
When that coyote is out across,
at, at the corner of the field,
that one mare turns up looks.
And everyone can feel that just by her,
her simple head, bring your head up.
It's just the, it's very forceful.
Well, the energy of the horse.
Yeah.
What
Rupert Isaacson: I'm, what
I'm wondering about is, I,
you're probably aware of this.
I, I know that there's a, an organization.
Research in institute called
the Heart Math Institute.
Mm-hmm.
Which has been doing, yep.
Research into the electromagnetic fields
thrown out by hearts of one kind or
another, and finding that the sort of,
the larger the heart, the greater the
electromagnetic field it throws out.
Mm-hmm.
So if our heart, if our relatively
small hearts throughout a certain
electromagnetic field, this huge
heart throws out a much bigger one.
Yes.
How, how, how do you feel that
that benefits a human to be in the
presence of a greater electromagnetic
field coming from a larger heart?
Lisa Diersen: Well, I think it's,
especially with animals because, and we,
the bigger, the electromagnetic field is
gonna be the bigger animal, definitely.
But if they're sentient animals like a
horse or an elephant or a, a peaceful,
a peaceful animal, they're gonna
bring that peaceful energy to you.
And I see it from when I used to do work
in the equine assisted therapy field.
You what would happen when a horse
would be around someone in crisis.
It, it's undeniable.
You can't, you can't work with someone
and, and be in a equine assisted,
whether it's psychotherapy or just
general therapy situation, and deny what
happens between a person and a horse.
And I think it's just
because the horses are just.
You can't go into an arena working
with a horse in a, equine-assisted
therapy setting with a bad attitude
because the horse is gonna just
turn around and blow you off.
It will just ignore you.
I mean, I've seen so many amazing
things happen in therapy sessions
that, I mean, they've, you know,
there are books and films about it.
They're, it's just undeniable.
I mean, what happened with your son?
It's How do explain that?
Well,
Rupert Isaacson: sure.
And you know, when, when my son, in
the early days would just lie on
Betsy, that was the mayor he became
close to, he would lie on her back.
this is before we even
started riding together.
And he would use her body like a big
old couch and all of his agitated
behaviors would just disappear.
And I had no idea why until, some years
later, even after we had been practicing,
you know, horse boy method and so on.
Then I, I think it was Linda Ton
Jones who, who came along and said,
oh yes, the HeartMath Institute.
you, you put your heart into
the close range, heart to heart
with a much greater electro.
And it's interesting that you said
for peaceful animal, cuz of course,
I guess you could say, you know,
an angry polar bear might not be
quite so, you know, good for us.
Yeah.
and, different type of hug.
and, This seems to bring our hearts
into what they call coherence.
Meaning that the, the way in
which, the rhythms of the ventricles
as they're pumping, become much
more, stable, slow, down, slow.
And that seems to bring our brainwaves
down at the same time, because of
course, hearts are composed of neurons.
The gut is composed of neurons and
the brain is composed of neurons.
So it seems to then bring one
from that sort of busy brain, the
basic, you know, to, to more of
an alpha, meditative brain state.
Cause I didn't know any
of this at the time.
I just, you know, observed it.
But it was very interesting
when it was explained to me.
You, you said something else though, about
horses metaphor, which I really like.
and I presume that to understand the
horse as a metaphor, you don't necessarily
even have to be a horse person.
What, what do you feel
horse are as a metaphor
Lisa Diersen: for humans?
I think it depends on the human and
what the human is going through.
whether for me, the, the horse
is, gosh, I think a metaphor of I
can do it, you know, possibility.
Like nothing's too big.
Yeah.
Possibility.
Possibility.
Perfect word.
For a veteran who's.
Just handed a, a letter to a
therapist that said, in, before I
got into the equine program, I was
thinking about committing suicide.
That horse could be a metaphor
for, for living and for life
and for, you know, surviving.
we're doing, it's so funny, and I love,
I've watched in the last 30 years how
all of these, these people who were
considered fringe before, but now that the
science is balancing with the knowledge
and, and it's all coming together.
even when, e equ I, when e Equine
assisted Growth and Learning Association
started, it was not considered
what it is now, which is a, a gold
standard for, the equine therapy
field and in the psychology field.
So I've watched all of this kind of, these
pieces come together and, and now the,
the general public and even non horse
people are getting an understanding.
You know, when, when I ha have a
conversation with someone who works
for, the veterans and administration
in their, recreational therapy
department, because that's what equine
assisted therapy is generally considered
with the va, it's still considered
recreational therapy until there's enough.
Research and data and study that comes
in through accredited resources that
they'll be able to actually bring it
in as a therapeutic use with veterans.
But we all know everyone who's been
out there, and especially now with the
Mustangs, because we're doing so much
more with Mustang horses, watching how,
because of the PTs d that the Mustang
horse goes through, balancing with the
ps, PTs d that veterans go through,
whether it's an accredited program or not.
Those programs
Rupert Isaacson: work.
You're talking about the work, the,
the, the, the trauma that, Mustang
goes through in being captured Yes.
Filed and brought
Lisa Diersen: into pen.
Yes.
Or even being separated
because they're family based.
Mm-hmm.
The herds are, I mean, there's a
huge, movement going on right now
to stop the helicopter around if
there's actually a bill in Congress.
Colorado is the first state that
passed legislature to, they have an
entire organiza or group now that's,
and funding that's gonna be dedicated
to, taking care of the, what the
Mustang issue is going on in Colorado.
So, and these horses form family bands,
so they're going through traumas, they're
getting torn apart and the mares and fos
are getting separated and all of that.
But that balance is what the
veterans go through and that.
That works.
And it doesn't have to be a
path or a, a gala certified
program with, with veterans.
It seems to be that as long as a group
of veterans have gotten together with
their horses and they work with each
other, if you are stopping someone from
committing suicide, something is working.
Absolutely.
And, and something is
working with the horse.
But, when you talk about the heart
math, that's, and that's another
thing that was considered kind
of fringe until just recently.
We're doing a lot of, in fact, next week
we'll be filming in Indiana, or the first,
first week of July, we'll be filming
in Indiana for a, where we're using
brain-based neuro pathway release work
with Mustangs and for our, our documentary
series, the Mustang story documentary
series that we started to years ago.
And it works when you watch these
horses in this program, it, it's
just amazing how well it works.
Waiting for those dopamine and
serotonin hits and teaching the
horses how to give themselves
those dopamine and serotonin hits.
Which changes the, which
changes the whole training.
You know, there's people out
there doing amazing work, which
is one of the, I I feel that.
With the film festival or with what
I do just in general is I kind of
act as a connector for all of these
stories and things out there that
either are, are brought to me or we
find or we help get those stories out
to everybody else who has no idea.
There's still people who I refer
your documentary to that sit after
they watch it and go, I had no idea.
I had no idea.
And now they know, and once
you see, you can't unsee.
So now you know that horses can do this.
So it's your move to continue to
tell that, tell people about all
the things that horses can do.
Rupert Isaacson: So what you're
really talking about with, with,
the film festival of course is,
is the healing power of story.
In, in your case, the stories
happen to be about horses.
but I guess story, you know, people
talk about us as, or, or, or, the
name for our species is, homo
sapien sapiens, the Thinking Ape.
But I've always thought that was
a rather asinine, title for us
because everything thinks right.
If you have a brain, you
think there's nothing special
about our species that way.
But we do have a larynx.
we speak with a speaking aid.
Other animals vocalize and they
can vocalize obviously in a very
complex way, but they don't, write
rap or, you know, Shakespeare or,
you know, epic poetry or whatever.
That's us with the storytelling app.
And it seems, you know, the time
I've spent in indigenous communities,
with shamans and healers and that
sort of thing, that story seems to
also be very tied up with healing.
in that it seems to be the original form
of medicine in that even, even actually
in modern medicine, what happens, you
go to see the doctor with a story.
You say, this is happening,
this did happen, this has
happened, this is happening now.
what's the story?
You know, and the doctor goes off,
the shaman would go into the spirit
world, you know, the doctor goes into
their notes and their research, and
then they come back with a set of
instructions and sort of create a new
story, which could be done through drugs.
It could be done through, you
know, a, a psychic medium.
It could be not a medium in terms
of connecting with the dead,
but in terms of, a channel, it
could be done through many ways.
It could be both.
It could be all, but nonetheless,
that seems to be what happens.
It's a storytelling process.
Where did storytelling
begin for you, as a girl?
Were you always an a of story?
Lisa Diersen: Oh yeah.
I was an avid reader.
my mother was, Al was very ill while
I was growing up, and so reading I.
Reading was a great escape for me.
And of course it was reading every
horse book that was, was ever written.
and now seeing those, some of those
horse books that have come in, been
turned into movies and that you're, if
you're a little girl and you read all
the whole Black Stallion series and
then you can watch the Black Stallion
movie, that was, that was my escape.
So reading horse horse books, I have
shelves full of all the horse books
that I've read as a, when I was a
kid I was able to find those books.
But, that's the other, one of the
other things with Equus is we have
all the literate, we have books.
We have usually 60 or so books
that get entered every year.
Oh.
So, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: a literary
festival as well as a film festival.
We're
Lisa Diersen: a literary,
we're art, we're podcast.
Okay.
any form of storytelling
in the equine world.
Okay.
We, we award that.
Rupert Isaacson: so for listeners,
if you've got a book, and you get
writing, you might be able to submit it.
what was your mother sick with?
what was, what was the issue with her?
Lisa Diersen: Oh, my mother had giant bone
cell cancer, which back and when I was
growing up, we didn't have even anywhere
near the, the medicine that we have now.
But, she had bone cell cancer.
She had lost a leg.
To that.
and then at what
Rupert Isaacson: age was she
when that really kicked in?
And what age were you?
Lisa Diersen: I was, well, okay, so
I remember on my 13th birthday was
when they told, told us as a family
that they were going to amputate her
leg, but she was, okay, we go back.
My brother died when I was, my mom
was five months pregnant with me in
a tragic accident in our basement.
he fell off of a pogo stick.
My older sister was bouncing him on,
hit a tool and my dad's workshop, and
it went into his ear and punctured
his eardrum and went into his brain.
And he lived maybe three days.
So they didn't think that my, I, they
thought my mom was gonna lose me.
She didn't.
But she really never recovered, I
think, don't think from that point
on, I think until she passed away.
And she was, I, I believe 64, 65 when
she passed away a actually, and it
was diabetes related and her body.
She just, with that moment with my
brother, I just think she just, I
don't rem I don't have any other
memories of, as a child of her not
being sad, I guess you not being
Rupert Isaacson: so she, she
was sick and sad all through
Lisa Diersen: your childhood.
Sick and sad all through my tub and my
little sister should say that again.
And my little sister, I had a sister
that came a couple years after I
was born, but she was never, my mom
was never, never, well, so between
being physically or mentally,
she was never, never really Well.
Rupert Isaacson: And your older
sister who, had been bouncing your
brother on the Perga six, she must
have of course, suffered terribly,
Lisa Diersen: guilt and so forth.
Yes.
Yeah.
And it wasn't until probably 30 years
later, and it was after my mother
passed away that, I had an uncle who
was a, a priest and he had a long talk
with my sister where she, and then
you talk about how people carry stuff.
She really finally opened up and
let loose and house, you know,
it had affected her entire life.
yeah.
So, you know, you watched Yeah.
And you, and so you, I grew
up very acutely aware of how
one action affects everything.
And so you have to be, you have to
consciously make decisions in your life to
not, to not fall into, you know, conscious
decisions in your life all the way along.
Not to fall into any, you know,
doing things that negatively.
You need to work on positivity.
Rupert Isaacson: What,
tell me about your father.
where was he in all this?
Lisa Diersen: Oh, he was my dad.
My dad.
I love my dad.
My dad was great.
He was always there.
He was, always took care of my mother.
and she was not, she was not a
happy person to take care of.
he wa he worked all the time.
So What did he do?
he was a plant manager for
a big aluminum rolling mill.
He was a mechanical manager for that.
my earl earlier, I kind, my
brother who passed, I kind of
took his place with my dad.
So I was always kind of doing, I don't
wanna call 'em boy things, but I was
all my dad, there wasn't anything
my dad ever told me I couldn't do.
So if, if he was up fixing
shingles on a roof, I was up
fixing shingles on a roof with him.
changing tires, I mean, learning how to
change the oil in a car there if he did
it, he wanted me to know how to do it.
Did he teach
Rupert Isaacson: all the kids?
, and you just ha happened to have
more of a, of an aptitude for that
sort of practical stuff, or did you
Lisa Diersen: all In fact, there
was a, there was a big difference.
my brother, my older sister was
13 years older, so I, I don't
have much of a memory of her.
It, she had, she got.
So her youngest, her oldest
daughter's the same age as my sister.
So it, I don't have that
memory of my older sister with
my dad and my little sister.
My mom was so ill at that point
that, my dad spent more time taking
care of that end of my mother then.
So it was, no, I didn't, so I
got, I was kind of always referred
to as my dad's sidekick, so.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Because you, you had a much
older one, a much younger one.
Mm-hmm.
You were sort of in the middle and Yep.
Able to middle child syndrome.
Okay.
Interesting.
So, so you, you are, you are, you have a
positive dad, but a mom who is basically
sick with sadness, and grief, and you
find story and you find horse stories
as, as, as, as a way to escape happiness.
what were the stories that really
stood out for you at that age?
Lisa Diersen: Black beauty?
the Billy, I loved the
Billy and Blaze stories.
I loved the Black stallion stories.
Mis misty of hin tea, you know,
just always like horse hero stories.
I love
Rupert Isaacson: those kinds of stories.
Horse hero stories.
So horses that were
somewhat against the odds.
Yes.
Like, like the black beauty story, you
know, sold to bad people surviving.
And that, I guess you were taking as back
to the idea of the horses as a metaphor.
Would you think it, it was clear to say
that even if it was unconscious, you
were putting yourself perhaps in the
shoes, the horseshoe of, of, I was just
gonna say underdog horse characters
that were, that were suffering.
Would, would that be
correct to say, to say?
Lisa Diersen: Probably,
probably dead on, probably.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you at
some point want to tell story?
Did you at some point say, well,
I want to write, I want to create
story or, was it different somehow?
Lisa Diersen: You know, I, I like
telling stories through, through,
pictures and film versus writing.
, and that's evolved.
That's really evolved in the
last 20 years with doing that.
I love that having bred the lucit
horses, the horses that I, I think
every baby that we've had that's
hit the ground is part of a story.
And so following every one of our
foals as they grow up and what they're
doing, you know, it's, that's just
more of the way to tell those stories.
So sort
Rupert Isaacson: of living stories really.
Lisa Diersen: Mm-hmm.
Living stories like the, like Josh's
story, kind of like your son's story.
I, I like those stories where they can
still continue because people still
want to know what's going on with Rowan.
They still, Josh still loves the fact
that now we can take pictures of him
four or five years later and he's
now writing his mom's Lucit mayor
and taking writing classes with her.
And, you know, it's, it's continuation.
It's not something that has an ending.
It has, it just continues.
Rupert Isaacson: You, you get into story,
partly to assuage this, you know, to,
to, to survive really, or to thrive in
this, in, in this house full of grief.
as, as well as of course your
relationship with your dad and so on.
you say that living stories and it
naturally film, were you, did you,
had you always sort of wanted to be a
filmmaker, did you, were there films
that you watched that, was there always
this little bit of you, I wanna do that,
but I just dunno how I'm gonna do that?
Lisa Diersen: You know, I, I don't know if
it was something consciously that I had.
I've always been a
creator, so when I worked.
When I was in engineering at General
Motors, you're, you're creating, you're
taking, blueprints and creating a,
something that will grow into being
a part in a, in a truck or a car that
evolved into, building houses and,
and building, developing subdivisions.
Just, I love the creative process.
I love taking something that is
just an, an idea and turning it
into something, whatever it is.
Whether it's a story or a house or a barn.
I'm working right now on a
friend's barn, so it's like, you
can't, can't get away from it.
Rupert Isaacson: No.
Sure.
And, and I think, you know, creative
people will always, it's very interesting
to, to hear you say actually that
the creative process of, of an auto
part is as, because of course it
is, it's as, creative as a movie
or a book and or a piece of art.
We often don't think of it that
way until, of course we see them.
They say it was a Roman artifact or an
Egyptian artifact, which is just a tool on
display in the Met or something like that.
Oh, wow, it's beautiful, amazing.
Look at that technology.
It's incredible.
What's the story behind that?
But of course, if we see, you
know, that because the, the, the
junk, the, the junk of today is
tomorrow's archeology, as they say.
So everything has that creative process.
It's good to be reminded.
Yes, you're right.
A button does, a button
does the creative process.
Yeah.
You as that little girl with story.
Did, was there a part of you
that said, I want to tell
stories, or was it not conscious?
Lisa Diersen: I think
it was always conscious.
Tell stories or create something.
Just, just do something.
I mean, I was always doing something,
you know, whether it was cooking,
cooking, cooking, gar gardening.
Maybe I did write a few, few little
stories when I was a kid, or I
was never, like drawing like I
could, it's still a stick horse.
Okay.
Like, thank God for Adobe, because
now I can really get kind of creative.
But, with Photoshop.
But, writing and, and, and film,
you know, film photo has always
been a great, you know, a good way
for me to put a story together.
Did you pick up a camera?
Young?
I, yeah, I think I had one of those that
you clicked and the, the, the picture
came out of, but yeah, I always had,
I've always had a camera, I always
had, when video cameras first came out,
even, you know, with, even just with
doing stuff, with trips or whatever, I
was always the one taking the pictures.
Capturing, capturing the
moments to tell the story.
Rupert Isaacson: Would you say
primarily then you, you, you.
You, instinctively, realized very
young that the way to heal was through
positive creative action, basically.
Oh, yes.
Yes.
And did somebody tell you that?
Like, did your dad tell you that?
Or did a mentor tell you that?
Or did you just come to that?
Was it, was it not?
Was it, was it one of those households
where it wasn't openly discussed or
did your dad say, actually listen,
this is the way, or was it Yeah.
Was it intuitive?
Lisa Diersen: I don't
think he ever said as much.
So, listen, this is the way, I, I,
I remember, with him never telling
me I couldn't, I remember talk with,
very distinctly with him one time,
one of the facilities he worked
at, they had a, a, a metal cooling,
a problem on how to cool metals.
And I, I drew him up a littles
little schematic, and, and he
didn't, he didn't downplay it.
He was like, oh, that's great.
You know, you know, it's good to think
about that and problem solve and, and
try to try to work out the problems.
I was never told I couldn't, if I
wanted to do something, I couldn't,
you know, you can't do that.
You, you can't do that cuz you're a girl.
So I, I was never put down, put that
way, but, and nowadays, well, they
still have, and it's gonna, we're gonna
have to go back so many light years now
between o v, Wade and Barbie out for
girls with getting back to where they had
told they can do something.
You're lucky yet.
Well, no, now you've got
girls though, or a girl.
But no, being able to, to
just create if I wanted to.
So
Rupert Isaacson: and so you, would you
think it was just more that you just,
you, you yourself, realized that staying
creative was the way to find healing?
Yes.
Rather than somebody specifically
saying, this is how to find healing.
Lisa Diersen: Yes.
Yes, I would say that.
Rupert Isaacson: And now of course,
here you are with a festival that's
primarily about healing, under
the masquerading as a, as a, as
a as a festival about, horses.
what made you think festival, have
you always liked the idea of groups of
people coming together, to celebrate
creativity in that sort of way?
Like Yeah.
What, at what point did festival creep
Lisa Diersen: in the festival
creeped in when, , we were breeding.
The horses.
Horses and horses.
You, , with your documentary, we
were doing, the town I was in there,
there was no horse event around.
So I had the bright idea of let's
try to do, with some friends,
let's try to do a festival that
addresses equine assisted therapy
that addresses the African-American
community with their horses.
Because in Chicago there's a lot of,
there's some bunch of guys who are
Buffalo soldiers, plus there's also a
big black cowboy community in Chicago.
We have a wonderful Hispanic
community in the area that
does, EscaRosa a lot of the,
Rupert Isaacson: beautiful dancer,
by the way, for those who don't know
what that is, that's the, female
side saddle, mounted displays
right in the Mexican tradition.
Lisa Diersen: Beautiful.
It's absolutely beautiful.
and then we have classical writing and,
and along with, art and literature.
So we were going to create a festival
that kind of addressed things that
aren't at your average horse show.
Oh, we had Native Americans too.
We had a, a big Native American,
Component to the festival.
We, it was called Festival
of the Horse and Drum.
And it, that was when we did
the very first film festival.
And I have a friend who owns a theater
in town, and I asked him if I could show
your film because you had just broken
your leg, so you were not gonna be
able to come, but you were gonna Skype
in, which I broke my leg last year,
so I had to follow in your footsteps.
, but we did, we had that and I, and
so I asked Ron, I said, can we show
some film or show this documentary?
He goes, yeah, as you can show it,
and it's a beautiful little theater.
And so he's, after he said Yes, I
said, well, what if I got a few more?
Because you know how I am, Robert.
I can't, I can't just stop.
And so I had 30 films the first year
and that kind of let me know that
this is something that is out there.
All of these films are out there because
for every, oh, we had Jousts too.
So for every aspect of what we had at
that festival, there was a documentary
that existed in the world that was a
counterpart, a, a compliment to that.
So the therapy part, we had yours, we had.
and a Nakota horse stories.
We had a documentary about Esam,
beautiful Es Moosa documentary.
We had a jousting documentary.
We had the Black Rodeo, which was,
Thero held in Harlem back in the
seventies, a documentary on that.
So there were so many stories out there
before we even tried to, to put out a
call for, for equine theme documentaries
that it just kinda let me know that this
might, there might be something to this.
Rupert Isaacson: And then I guess
your, background with engineering
must have come in handy in terms of
the logistics and the organization
and the sort of nuts and bolts
Lisa Diersen: side.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It just, it's, it's just
piecing the puzzle together.
So
Rupert Isaacson: what are o over the,
it's been quite a few years now that
you've been running this, festival.
What are the stories that really,
really stand out for you, that
we should all be aware of?
Because, there'll be people who are
driving their cars listening to this.
So I want to, I want to tell
you guys at this point, pull
over and get the notebook out.
Lisa Diersen: or we can
put it in your show notes.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
And of course you can also listen
to this, you know, later on.
But what are the must
sees and the must reads.
That you've come across over the
years that you're like, whoa, this one
changed my life, this one changed my
life, that we might not know about.
What, what are the stories
that, that we should know?
I'm gonna, I'm getting
my notebook out too.
Lisa Diersen: Well, you know, , this
is the 11th season with this back, with
this film festival, and we've had over
600 films submitted into this festival,
which is kind of mind blowing, when
I, when you sit back and think of it.
But there's one that, that actually,
there's two that really stick
out in my mind, but one is called
Healing Horses, and there these are
short, these are under 20 minute
Rupert Isaacson: so tell
us about Healing Horses.
The Healing Horses doc,
Lisa Diersen: the, the Healing Horses
documentary is about a young lady who
has a car accident on the 4th of July.
So immediately you must think
it's a teenager out drinking and
driving, which it totally wasn't.
But she learns how to walk again with
the therapeutic use of this big draft
horse, which happens to also be an, a
world equestrian level draft horse that
teams that come into the United States.
Karen is the lady who runs
the program, is also a coach
for, a lot of the, the teams.
And so she'll use this, this draft
horse who is on his side gig is
being used as a therapy horse.
And the other one was an early on
documentary called Riding My Way
Back, and it was about a veteran who
got into a program, just met this
horse, kind of standoffish for a great
part of it, but then got into a real
one-on-one relationship with the horse.
And when he was about four weeks into
the program, Maybe it was four months,
turned around and gave his therapist a
letter, and the letter had said how he was
g going to commit suicide the night that
he called to say goodbye to the horse.
And because of this
horse, he didn't do that.
And now he is mentoring other veterans
and he's part of the program and he's
engaged to this beautiful young girl.
And, you know, it's, it's just such a,
it's such a feel good, amazing story,
but it's what horses can do for us.
Riding my way back.
Yeah.
Robin Rosenthal was a filmmaker
on that Beautiful Doctor
Robin
Rupert Isaacson: Rosenthal.
Okay.
And healing horses.
heal.
Who was the, who was the,
Lisa Diersen: I would have, that
was way back in the beginning.
I have to, I'd have to look
up who that filmmaker was, but
there's just so many amazing ones.
We're working on a, on a project
right now, that kind of goes
back to the Mustang Pro, series
we're working on called The Must.
The whole project is called the
Mustang Discovery Ride Project,
but I had a young girl, Mustang
girl, the Mustang Discovery ride.
Yes.
So two years ago, actually,
it's funny, two years ago
today, I met a young lady in.
Montana, Bozeman, Montana at Art of the
Cowgirl, who they were looking for someone
to help them pull together their project
and they were starting in Delaware.
So logistically them coming outta
Montana, Wyoming and getting 'em to
Delaware was a, was a project and a half.
But they rode from Delaware to
California all the way across the
United States, almost 5,000 miles with
four Mustangs and a mule mule stang,
and all the way across the country.
We set up meetings and, seminars
and clinics at different veterans
or youth programs across the country
for her to speak at as she wrote.
And finding all of these
places non-connected, through
to different associations.
These are just kind of standalone places
where the horses are healing people.
Mostly Mustangs, but it, that
was, that's just amazing.
So that documentary is Julianne Neal is
working on getting that finished out.
I know I, you met her years ago
and she's been a important part
of Equus, but she's the, was the
chief filmmaker on that documentary,
so that hopefully will be ready.
Gosh, by sometime next year, cuz
there's a ton of, there's a year's
worth of a year and a half's worth
of footage cuz we wrapped that last
November on the beach in California.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell me, I mean, as
a filmmaker myself, I immediately
think, oh, that sounds expensive.
How, did she, financed that ride?
That's not a cheap thing to do.
And then to get a, a
documentary around it.
what, what were the
Lisa Diersen: mechanisms there?
So we had, because it was Mustangs,
we had some support from the Mustang
Heritage Foundation, which supported
until about halfway through, and
then they ran out of their support.
And we had to, we had to really
scramble, but because I have some
amazing filmmakers all the way across
the country and Julianne was willing
to, to kind of oversee the main part
of the putting everything together.
I had different filmmakers who
came in and rode with Anne and
would film and do some writing.
And Rhonda Gregorio, who's working on
the Mustang book project, she came in
and rode in, in Washington DC with us.
We rode all the way down out
of, oh gosh, I can't remember
the name of the park, but.
Through this park all the way
along through, so into downtown
DC up to the Washington Monument
with these mustangs, which was one
of the, well, nerve wracking, but
exciting things that I've ever done.
And but I had, I have had an amazing
group of filmmakers, cross country
who were willing to just come on and
ride for a couple of weeks with her
or, or drive along or do whatever or
follow or ride in the chase car and
film and get parts of this story.
So from that point of view, I mean, it's
gonna be a little rougher, but we just
screened one of the best documentaries
I've seen called The Long Rider,
which was about Felipe Long Rider, the
long, the long Rider that came out.
That was part of the festival last year.
That's a 90 minute documentary.
Felipe Road from Canada to Brazil.
Felipe who?
He did all Alte Ale.
How do I spell that?
I think it's l e t i e.
I will get you that because I
think he needs to be on your show.
Rupert Isaacson: Felipe Letti.
Okay.
Brazilian.
He's back guy.
Lisa Diersen: Pardon me?
Brazilian guy.
Yes.
And he lives in Canada now.
but his family, it's an
amazing story and so.
he did most of his own filming
with a hand, you know, with
his phone or with a, a GoPro.
And, you know, when you're telling a story
of riding across the country, it, you
wanna see it from the seat of the rider.
You want, you want that bird's
eye view as you're going across.
Kind of like what Ben Masters did
with unbranded, that was one of
our first documentaries we had in
the, in the festival was unbranded.
And that you still, that still stands up.
It's beautiful and breathtaking.
And, but Felipe wrote from Canada
to Brazil, then from Brazil to the
furthest, most southern tip you
can ride, I think in Argentina.
Then they went back up, he went
up to Alaska and rode from Alaska
back down to Calgary, Canada.
So that's an amazing, amazing,
Rupert Isaacson: and what was he, what
was he trying to achieve with this?
Why did he do this crazy ride?
Lisa Diersen: He, to ride the
three at with Schley's book
about writing the Americas.
He wanted to follow Schley's story.
And so, and, and he's, he's
a cha, you'll love him.
He's a character.
He's a great interview.
He's just such an amazing young man.
Rupert Isaacson: What, what, what was he
trying to bring attention to any cause or
what, what was the, what was the capital?
No, not
Lisa Diersen: really to any cause.
This was, it was more
that he could do this.
You know, long riders are.
with Lasan it was different
because we were riding, we
were doing the Mustang horses.
Were the whole focus of this to
bring awareness to all the horses
that are standing in b l m Holding,
which is right now close to 70,000
horses that they've rounded up.
They're standing and holding.
We can use them in veterans
programs, we can use them in
mental health programs with youth.
We can use them.
They're, they're wonderful riding horses.
They're great all around horses.
So that was what our project
was about, bringing awareness
to these horses and holding.
Rupert was a long rider and Felipe in
the world, there's an organiz, pardon me?
Rupert Isaacson: Felipe was a Felipe.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What, when you say a long
rider, what does that mean?
What's
Lisa Diersen: a long rider?
So there's an organization
called the Long Riders Guild.
I think there're, they're based out of
either Ireland, Ireland, I think it's
Ireland, the, the, the, the main, rider
or the, the organization is out of.
But it's an organization that if you
ride more than a thousand miles in
your ride from start to get, you
know, for the ride to end, you be,
you qualified to be a long rider and
you can join the Long Riders Guild.
Then, Bernice, who we had the
documentary a couple of years
ago about Lady Long Rider, she.
She passed away a year and a
half ago, but she rode 30,000
miles across the United States.
There's, there's all of these
people out there that do this, that
Rupert Isaacson: go out.
They're not doing it for any,
any specific, cause they're
doing it as a personal odyssey.
No, no.
Lisa Diersen: Yep.
Yep.
Niece got divorced and when she
got divorced, she got on her
horses and just started riding.
She was gonna ride to go visit her sister,
and she just kept riding and she kept
riding until she, she, her last long ride
was two months before she died of cancer.
She just kept riding.
There's just people
who, it's like a runner.
It's like anybody else that wants
to get out there in their sport and
achieve it for their personal best.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, what what your,
what immediately springs to mind when
you talk about these rides is, you
said, and she just kept riding.
Remember Forrest Gump?
And he starts running and
then he just keeps running.
And of course he builds his
following, but of course what he's
really doing it for is healing.
Do you think that Yes.
Clearly this lady who, who, who,
who died of cancer with her 30,000
miles was after her divorce.
That seems to be a healing
journey she's trying to heal.
Is, is, is Felipe with his,
Canada to tear going back up.
Is, is he looking for healing as well?
Lisa Diersen: He talks completely and
openly about his search for healing and
how the horses for his mental health.
One of the organizations that we're
working with now is Horses for Mental
Health, horses for Mental Health,
two year, two year old organization.
Lynn Thomas, who's the founder
of I, is now the director
for Horses for Mental Health.
Okay.
And Felipe was just on her.
they had in May, they had their big
mental health awareness month with the
horse campaign and Felipe was one of
the guests on there and talks about,
you know, the depression and, and how
horses and what horses have done for him.
Rupert Isaacson: So really
he was doing, he was riding.
Yes.
He was riding his away, away
from and through depression.
Feeling.
Okay.
So this is interesting.
I mean, we talked, you talked earlier
about the idea of horses as metaphor,
and I was asking you, what do you
feel horses are a metaphor for?
And I do think that, I think
everybody, would you not agree,
who, whether, whether they're,
whether they're horse people or not.
When people think of horses,
they think freedom, don't they?
You think?
Mm-hmm.
Freedom.
You think that's a free animal?
If I sit on the back of this
horse, it will take me to freedom.
You think about the image of the cowboy,
you think about riding the ranch, it's,
it, it's about freedom, in a world
that seems to be less and less free.
do, do you feel that with the Equus
Film Festival, you can give people
a sense that they can find freedom
through, through the, whether it's by
actually sort of doing these things
that these people are doing, these
sort of pilgrimages people are doing?
Or, or just through
the stories themselves?
Lisa Diersen: I think, I
think that's a yes to both.
One of, one of the films we had a couple
of years ago was, about called the
Gobi Gallup and my friend Julie Vlu,
who runs the, the Vlu Foundation, she
started this ride in Mongolia in her
sixties to, and she didn't even start
writing till her mid to late fifties.
She started this ride now to help
build, build schools and, libraries
for the children in the village,
in the Mongolian Village where she
first went to do a, a horseback
ride because she saw these children.
Scrounging for food and clothing and
everything else on a garbage dump.
And she thought, my God, I
got, I, I have to be able, able
to do something about this.
And so since then we've showed her
documentary and we've had people who,
after they've seen their document, her
documentary have gone and ridden with her.
every year she do, they do an annual ride
now, and she ac they actually have five or
six different rides they do in Mongolia.
And it's, it's completely
changed her life.
Getting into to what she's doing now.
It's like a, a, another whole
phase of her life happening.
I, I've seen this happen time and time
again with so many people, with the
horses, when the horse is just, when it's
their time to be part of your life, you
can't, there's nothing you can do to, to,
to stop 'em from coming on and driving
and, and taking you where you're going.
The, the people
Rupert Isaacson: who come to your
festival, I should imagine they're
primarily horse people, but are
you getting the general public?
Are there people who are showing up to
the festival with no horse background?
People?
Lisa Diersen: A little bit, but
they usually come as guest with
someone with that has horses.
A, a good partnership would, would be
with something like say, being a little
off, kind of like what I wanna call
off Broadway, but when, when Sundance
does their big festival, they'll have
like rooms that Doy cat films or very
specific genre of films that would
probably get a, a broader audience.
But I think, and the sad thing is,
is that no matter how good a horse
documentary is, it's still a horse
documentary and the industry as far as,
the other film festivals and that they
tend to not show horse horse theme films.
I have no idea why it, it, it doesn't make
sense why they wouldn't show and amazes
me because some of these are some of the
best movies I've ever seen just from the
Rupert Isaacson: pure emotion.
Sure.
And cinematic.
But, in terms of, of the audiences
that that show up to your festival,
do you get non horsey people?
Lisa Diersen: Only from 90% if they
come with other people, like with a
horse, horse lover, so it's like a, then
they get kind of drop, they have to be
initiated and then they don't properly.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So, so, so for example, with the,
the, the horses for mental health or.
With the Mustang issue in, America,
I, I happen to know that it's costing
the taxpayer, I think it's 150 million
a year to keep these horses in these
holding pens, which are not, not very
nice if they don't end up going down
shit down to Mexico to solve the meat.
and these are issues which of course
don't get into the mainstream unless
people find out about them somehow.
Obviously, therapeutic riding,
you know, and, and working
with horses in mental health.
This now is edging its
way into the mainstream.
obviously I work, people are
starting to be referred to us,
but it's a slow, slow process.
What do you feel, you could do, I mean,
you are, you're obviously already doing
it, but what do you feel you could,
the, the, the film fe the, the festival
could do more, to bring the idea that
horses are integral to human mental
health, , into the wider mainstream
so that they, they don't have to
stumble upon your, your, your festival.
Right.
, with a, with a horsey person.
How, how can we move it further
into the mainstream, do you think?
This message?
Lisa Diersen: well, we're, we're
in the horse world to reach
further, to get to more people.
We've started a, what we call the
Mustang Summit because part of what,
and, and it's kind of a different
layered answer, but the Mustang Summit.
Has been developed to be an educational
platform where we talk only about off
range issues after the horses have been
rounded up in those 60, 70,000 horses.
What can we do with them?
There's two really distinct camps
in the wild horse world and there's,
there's kind of the WildHorse extremists
that think they should just stay out
on the planes and nothing should be
done with them and let them be wild.
And then there's the people that have,
have Mustangs and love them and realize
that the Bureau of Land Management, which
the other camp thinks is the evil overlord
ha, has been tasked in 1971 when the
WildHorse and Bureau Act passed, they were
tasked with managing these wild horses.
They're just like, I don't want to be in
a country where we have an open season
on hunting where we give a hunter a
license to go out and pull 20,000 horses.
That happened, that was called
How Kennel Ration got started.
So in order to stay out of that,
we have to have roundups and a
certain amount of those horses
have to be rounded up every year.
Well, when you bring that certain
amount of horses in the we, in,
in the US we have the hin ponies.
I think everybody knows what the
hin ponies are, where they round
Rupert Isaacson: them up.
Let, just for those listeners
outside of, of the USA Chin is an
island, off of the coast of Virginia.
and there's actually a few of
these islands are called barrier
islands, where horses washed up from
shipwrecks, hundreds of years ago and
have established feral populations,
some of which are quite famous.
Sti Okay, I'll shut up now.
Back, back, back to that.
Lisa Diersen: Well, well, the Chin
Kati model works because the, the
fire department for the last 70
years and in Chin Kati has kind
of overseen the pony population.
They round them up every year.
They swim them across a channel.
They take, give them their shots.
They keep a record of who's who.
They take the, the younger horses,
the babies, and the yearlings,
and they auction them off.
And the older breeding stock
gets taken back to the island
to to, to start a new crop.
And the, that model works, we have, we
have all different kinds of what's called
hmas out west horse management areas.
Where people love, say sand washed basin.
There's beautiful, very colorful
mustangs that come out of that area.
People love them.
If we started to do, like with the Shin
Kati model, where you are cultivating
a group of people who want those very
specific Mustang horses, then you've got
your, you've got your buyers, and every
year you have people who are waiting in
line for that roundup to happen to bring
those horses in and so they can auction
or pick their horse out of an auction.
And so that's years away creating that.
So in the meantime, we still have 70,000
horses, 65, or whatever the number is.
It changes that we have to find homes for.
So with the Mustang Summit, our goal is to
educate people about the prison programs,
the veteran programs, the youth program.
There's a youth program in Utah that
turns out 50 to 60 horses a year through
their tip training program with their
kids who have gone through the adoption,
the, welfare system with the kids and
the kids who are going through all of
the, the Foster, it's Youth at risk.
It's a, it's a youth at risk program.
Mm-hmm.
They, those kids are the ones
doing the gling of the Mustang.
And it's called three-Point Center.
They do an amazing job.
So the, the Mustangs
work with Youth at Risk.
They work with SueAnn Wells, who has
her program in Chattanooga, Tennessee,
with her Inner City Girls program
who are doing dressage with Mustangs.
And then they, they work with all of
the other programs that are out there.
So that's what we try to do with
the, , the Mustang Summit is
to at least educate that part.
But in my heart of hearts, I, I genuinely
believe and feel that 130 years ago
or so, maybe even 140 pe everybody
at some point was around a horse.
Whether it was a horse pulling,
the milk wagon or delivery
wagons or horse were by humans.
Still in other parts of the world,
horses are by humans all the time.
And, you know, you wanna get
deeper into the conversation.
You don't see youth committing suicide in
those countries at the rate that they're
committing suicide in this country.
W we had daily interaction
with, this, with sentient
beings, horse or cow or whatever.
Now we are removed from that because
nobody's around horses on a daily basis,
except for those of us that have horses.
And know what they do.
And I think that horses are here for
their next part of, of their, of their
journey with the humans to heal us.
That more importantly, not to be a riding
instrument, which is it's, I would not
give up my give up riding horses, period.
I love getting on my horse and riding.
But to, to whether they're people
are riding, whether they're doing
therapy with them or whatever,
that horses are here to heal us.
Horses are here to bring people back
to what they're missing in life.
And that's, that, that connection, that
call it HeartMath, that, that finding
your center again, finding your peace.
And you, you can do that when you're
with your horse or a horse, any horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I, I like
what you said just now also about
that it, it wasn't just horses.
It was being around sentient beings.
Obviously we, we have pets.
Mm-hmm.
But I think that, our relationship
with our pets can be different
because, What does a horse do?
It carries you or it, you rely on it.
You know, what did a cow do?
You, you relied on it.
If you have a hunting dog, I suppose,
or a guide dog, a seeing eye dog or a
sheep dog or something, you rely on it.
But of course, the vast majority of
people with pets, I have pets too.
, we don't, we, we just have them
as a, as a feel good factor
for our mental health, really.
That's why we have pets.
Yeah.
But it is true what you say, I think.
And something I hadn't considered
though is that yes, the, the, the malaise
that you see through the youth of the
western world, and I think probably
the industrialized world everywhere.
Yes.
Yes.
It seems that mental health is
deteriorating that, that, depression's on
the rise and rapidly despite the fact that
life has materially never been better.
and it's interesting that you say
in the countries where people are,
around sensient beings all the time,
in a way that they're around them.
You, you have better mental health.
It's, it would seem that suicide,
for example and that sort of thing,
not so much of a factor that I think
you've just answered my question for
what's in it for the mainstream person.
Because let's say you're listening
to this podcast say, well, why should
I listen to a podcast about a, a a a
festival around art and film with horses?
I mean, I, I live in.
An apartment in London or Queens
or Buenos Aires or Cape Town,
it, it makes no difference to
me or I don't care from horses.
But I think your, the point that you're
making about being around sentient
beings back to where we went to with
HeartMath earlier is, is, is important.
And it seems that you are
somewhat of a profit of this.
where would you like this to go?
You, you've, you've, you've established
now a very successful festival.
you, you could say yourself
actualized with it.
You're, you're kind of
making a living from it.
You've, you've taken this idea that
everyone said was just this silly little
niche idea for people that like ponies.
And you've put the light to that.
Obviously, you, you, you, you, you are
educating people about the Mustang issue.
Obviously you're educating people
about horses and mental health and
so on, but where would you like to
go back to yourself as a little girl?
Where would you like to
really go with this festival?
What would you like to see it do?
Lisa Diersen: I'd like to see
more people, non horse people
coming and seeing this magic.
Cause it's magic.
I mean, it's, it's so powerful and,
and I don't care whether I'm showing
films and I still do this, three
times a year at a library by us.
I'll take a, a group of our
documentaries and we do a little
movie night at a library, and you
see people walking out in tears just
because they, they, they're so moved.
They're just, they, they're just so
moved because they simply had people
go, just keep saying, I had no idea.
I had no idea.
That's, that seems to be the chant
of people who've seen the seen horse
movies that are about mental health or
veterans or kids, therapeutic uses.
They walk out and they just
go, I just, I just had no idea.
And I'd like that to be, , more, more
people to be experiencing that because
these people, these filmmakers work so
hard to pull these stories together and
to share them with, with people and to,
to let someone experience, to have the
experience that I had the first time I
saw your film, to want to make, to want
to make it everybody, to, to see that.
I think everybody who, who takes the time
to make a documentary about horses or.
You know, what, what is going on?
Whether it's a good one or a bad one,
they've still put their heart and
soul into, into that storytelling.
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
it, it's really interesting.
As you were doing this, I I, I was
inspired to just jump on Google because,
it, it, reminded me of something I read
a few months ago, which was that for
people who are stuck in cities, and I
think this came out of lockdown, , that
watching nature documentaries, for
example, wildlife documentaries and
nature documentaries, turned out to be
incredibly good for people's health.
Not just their mental health, but
actually their physical health too.
Mm-hmm.
And of course, what is a horse,
but nature and where do mm-hmm.
Horse documentaries take place.
And I was just thinking, well,
what's in it for me if I, I don't
care from horses, but, and I've,
I, I've just got something here.
It says, in a new study published by
Oxford University Press, , experts
describe how television shows
can ultimately not benefit, not
just the planet, , by making
people, more interested in, in
nature and the causes of nature.
But it backed up something which had
come out from the University of, of
California Berkeley, where, watching
nature documentaries of any kind was
shown to be one of the best ways to boost
your mental health and decrease stress.
And of course, we know that
stress is a physical thing.
It, it's not just a.
Something that happens because
the amygdala in the brain signals
your body to produce cortisol.
The stress hormone, that stress
hormone we know is a neurotoxin.
So people who are stressed all the time,
which is most people in our culture,
are suffering, you know, health,
physical health, degradation from it.
Would you posit that, by producing this
documentary and sort of putting th th
this festival and putting all of these
documentaries out there for people to
watch, and giving them a, a platform
where they get to television and that sort
of thing, you are actually benefiting
people's physical as, as well as mental
health way outside of the horse world.
Well, I would love to think
Lisa Diersen: that that would happen.
Rupert Isaacson: It seems, well, it
seems the academics think it, it,
it's, it's, it's, it's very interesting
to, to, to hop onto, to Google.
It seems to be a hot topic right now.
I just did one, one little search here.
and it seems that it does come
down to reducing stress, which
makes perfect sense if you think
about it, I guess because mm-hmm.
If, if planet Earth is where our organism,
because humans are organisms, is pro
pre-programmed to, to be in, and of
course we, we divorce ourselves from that.
then to beam something into a living
room, to beam something into a
cell phone, Surely must connect
one, reconnect one, even if it's
in a metaphorical or virtual way.
Mm-hmm.
Something in our organism
must respond to that.
Would you not think?
Lisa Diersen: Oh, I think for sure,
because we're, we are, we're mammals.
I mean, we are the same type of
being that, that the horse says.
We just have the ability
to think of it more.
But, and some there that
could be questionable at
some time with some people.
But, I noticed you me, when
you, that's where comes from.
But, there was a, one of our, we also
do commercials, have commercials in
the festival and equine productions,
who happens to be based in, the UK
did a really nice piece, a little
commercial on, for the mental health.
there's a mental health group
that takes care of the jockeys and
people who work at the racetracks.
And, when you were talking, you were
talking a little bit about people in their
apartment or this and that, but I'll bet
you there's a bunch of people who are
gamblers and or race horses and Oh, yes.
Yeah.
That kind of thing.
I mean, the dark side of horse
industry affects them that way too.
Yes.
The dark side of the racing world,
but still a horse world, but.
They did a beautiful little piece, and
it was more, it just kind of scanned.
I wanna think, I think it was at Ascot,
Royal Ascot, and they would zoom in
on a, on someone in the crowd and
they would say, has body issues, you
know, just, maybe it's the, maybe
it's a jockey or one of the ladies
serving, and then the other one would
say, dealing with, dealing with grief.
And it would just keep zooming
in on, on different people.
And it made you stop and
think everybody's got a story.
Everyone has something going on.
You know, everyone needs what
the horse has to give them at
some level because everybody has
something going on in their life.
It goes to that little, I, I have
a little sign in the kitchen that
says, be nice because you don't know
what the other person's going through.
You know?
Always be nice because you don't know
what the other person's going through.
You don't know what kind
of day they're having.
You don't know what their home life is.
You don't know whether they're going
through a, a, a parent dying or something.
I mean, you just never know.
So never take it personally.
Rupert Isaacson: What would it's,
to me, this goes beyond horses.
and it goes back to the
human car of story, right?
So there you are as a little girl and.
You are growing up in a household
where you are, you are seeing
your mother die slowly from grief,
basically in front of your eyes.
It manifests as cancer, but mm-hmm.
Effectively that, and you see your
older sister, functional, but walking
dead to some degree because of this
terrible guilt, of what happened to your
brother, even though I'm sure it wasn't
her fault, it was just a freak thing.
Mm-hmm.
and then you fortunately have this
creative dynamic father who includes you
in everything and, shows you, encourages
you to, to be creative in every way,
and shows you the creative power of what
people often don't think of as creative.
Things like the engineering side,
the building side, that, that
actually pointing out to machine
tooling, that sort of thing.
That, that is actually as
creative as riding a novel or,
or producing a piece of art.
Then you get into, obviously horses and
horse breeding, and suddenly you want to
run a horse festival to promote stuff that
you wouldn't normally see in your regular
horse show, and that leads you into
this, , very successful, Equus festival.
but really it seems to me what you've done
through the whole thing is you've, you've,
you've identified the healing power of
story and you've created a nexus whereby
people can be healed through story.
It happens to be about,
primarily about horses, but it.
Obviously could be pretty much any
story if story is at the root of healing
for humans and festivals are where we
find out about and celebrate and give
our attention to this type of healing.
I, I think everyone who goes to a
festival of one kind always comes
away feeling uplifted, inspired.
I know there's a lot of people
out there probably listening
who would like to do a festival.
It's certainly always
been in the back of mind.
Oh God, I like to do a festival someday.
But, I think a lot of people have this
idea what, give us your nuts and bolts
as a, as a the engineering side of you.
How do you put a festival together
and how do you make it work?
Cuz most festivals don't work.
How do you make a festival work?
How do you do it?
Lisa Diersen: Team, a great team
having, having a great support team,
people really good people helping.
I've learned with, especially with the EQU
component of this festival, with the film
component that we partner now with next
or the middle of July, I'll be at Briar
Fest at the Kentucky Horse Park, which.
For those out there that
don't know what Briar Fest is.
everyone I think globally
knows what Briar horses are.
They're the little model horses
that come in a come in a yellow
box, and every little girl
usually has at least one of them.
But Briar Fest gets about 40,000
people every year in at the horse park.
We show, I go down there and
we'll do a day of film screening.
The films I've learned to
partner with other festivals.
We come in as a, as a component.
two, two festivals now with the
Mustang Summit where we have the
film festival and the Mustang Summit
kind of running simultaneously.
one because there's some overlap
between the documentaries and the, the
storytellers of those documentaries, which
happened to be horse people who then in
the morning they can go watch a seminar
with that horse person and then go in the
evening and watch a documentary and sit
through a q and a with the filmmaker who
made a the film about that horse person.
so I've learned that, oh, throughout
the years, COVID was killer for two
years, but we learned how to go virtual.
We learned how to do
a lot of stuff online.
We have a film channel, EQU Films
channel where people can go and
watch, I think it's $7 a month,
they can watch some of our horse
documentaries and films on demand.
The EQU film channel,
Rupert Isaacson: it's taught us.
How do, is that run by you or is
that, is that, run by a larger,
Lisa Diersen: we have, i, I,
it's, it's under, film festival.
Flix is who we are.
Their, we are their horse channel.
So it's a company out of, LA that
I work with and, we are their,
we are their horse content.
So it's a whole dedicated channel,
called the EQU Film Channel.
there's an app that, that we
have that's film Festival flicks.
And then you we're on that app.
you know what we, you learn, when
before Covid, we were doing quite a
few tour stops around the country.
Every month we would be
in a different location.
Canada, you, I remember sitting
down with you one time, we were
at, the Abilities Expo in for the,
the therapeutic expo where people
could come and get their stuff.
And you and I were talking, you
were talking about at one day this,
this film festival, you could, would
be able to carry it in a suitcase.
Well, we've gone from being in a
suitcase to now it goes on a hard
drive, so we can go anywhere with the
film festival and screen these films.
So if, if a little goal I have,
I'd love to be doing something
with, next week is the five schools.
The five writing schools are
doing a big presentation in Spain.
And I did not know until a friend of
mine is going to see this, that Abu
Dhabi now has a classical writing school.
Did you
Rupert Isaacson: know that?
I did not know that.
We're talking about classical dressage
in the, in the vein of, the Spanish
Writing School of Vienna, that
Lisa Diersen: France.
Yes.
So the, the Spanish Writing School
is, is there, the Portuguese School is
there, the Andalusian school is there.
the school from France.
France is there.
And then the Saudi Arabian, I mean,
the school for Abu Dhabi is there.
So the five schools are coming together
to do a big presentation in Spain.
So I would love to take
the festival to Abu Dhabi.
I think that would be really cool to take
the film festival there, to do a weekend
screening or whatever, maybe Germany.
And we, we did a little short
one in France and we're talking
to some people in the uk.
So now that we're all past the
Covid fear, I think, I think
we'll be moving a little bit.
Things have loosened up
since January of this year.
So since this January we've been
in, i almost every month I've been
somewhere else with the film festival.
So it's finally shaking
Rupert Isaacson: after.
At what point would you
say, let's talk about money?
I think when people get an idea for
a festival of any kind, there's an
initial rush of enthusiasm and then they
say, oh, but shit, we need sponsors.
how do we do that?
And everyone sort of scratches
their head, no, we need to,
looks, looks the other way.
How do you get the
money to run a festival?
Talk to us.
Let's say everyone's listening
now wants to run a festival.
What are the, what's the A, B, C,
and D of how'd you get the money to
Lisa Diersen: run a festival?
We still need sponsors, but we, we take
the money that we get from sponsors and
you make the ends meet at that event and
you do the best you can and you pray for
a little bit of a turnout with people
and you then plan for the next one.
And
Rupert Isaacson: what do you do
to get it off the ground though?
Do you have to just put in your own money?
At first?
You put in
Lisa Diersen: your own money.
You either put in your own money or
you have people who are willing to
put money in and that's your sponsors.
And, I, equi has been very
lucky because we have a couple
of, people who really believe in
what the mission is that have that.
Regularly make a, a nice donation
to keep the mission going.
but you know, it's, it's, don't do it.
If you think you're gonna
make a fortune, but do it.
I do it because I'm passionate.
I, I believe that this is, that every time
I say, dammit, I'm not doing this again.
Somebody sends me a really great
film and I'm like, dammit, I
want everybody to see that film.
And so, as long as the creators keep
creating good horse stories, I think
there needs to be someone out there
reviewing and patting them on the back
and, and maybe giving them an award for
taking the time to, to make that content.
And before we were in existence, before
EQU was here, and to any big sponsors out
there that might be listening, this is why
I think it's a responsibility of a Purina
or a, your bigger people who, who exist
on horses, their, their business exists
because of the horse they should be the
ones really carrying the, carrying it on
this because without those people telling,
getting those stories to us, And us being
there to say, wow, you did a great job.
Or, here, let's have an audience
that will actually see it.
Then that little film will get
made, and it might go on YouTube.
Somebody might see it on
YouTube, but only per chance.
And then it just is out
there in the internet world.
So at least with us, someone sends
us a film and it gets shown to the
different audiences, and we help
help get these stories out because
otherwise how are they gonna get out?
Rupert Isaacson: So Purina and the
big, , feed companies and that's,
they're not yet sponsoring you?
Lisa Diersen: Not yet.
Not yet.
Okay.
Okay.
No, and that's after, that's after 11
Rupert Isaacson: years, so, okay.
Are you actively going
after them saying, Hey,
Lisa Diersen: we, yeah,
we are knocking a little.
we, we, it's, it's after the 10th
year, things are changing a little.
Like people, people go, oh,
it's, you're not going away.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So longevity is an important thing.
You've got, you've gotta stick around.
Oh, yes.
Ok.
Yes.
Yes.
talk to me about the, the, the structures.
You said donations, are you what
you'd call in America, a five
oh one C three, or a nonprofit?
What people in England will call charity?
You're, you are a, a
for-profit or a non-for-profit
Lisa Diersen: organization or llc.
what I've found, and again, this
is in, in this country, I know a
lot of people who've had some really
great, nonprofits going and eg.
Gala is the classic example.
You, Lynn Thomas and Greg Kirsten
started that organization and their
boards voted them out, got rid of them.
Mm-hmm.
Which, you know, once they wanted
to, I mean they just, once it was
successful, the boards got rid of them.
So,
Rupert Isaacson: palace cos
in a little bit the, the,
Lisa Diersen: yeah.
Yes.
So the, I just think that this mission,
we've really been able to stay true to
the mission of what EQU is, and that's
being the home to the storytellers of
the horse world, whether it's through
film or art or literature that we've
been able to stay true to that because
I don't have a board saying, well, we
don't like this film, so I don't, I
don't, you know, we're not, we're we
don't have that the, the heavy hand of
you're a nonprofit, you can't do this.
So, but presumably though, no, we're
Rupert Isaacson: for-profits.
So in, in the American climate
though, people obviously can give
money to a not-for-profit, and get
a tax deductible donation from that.
and that allows people
with nonprofits, to.
To fundraise, quite effectively.
You, you are saying you right to some
degree denies yourself that mechanism.
Do you, do you think that it would
be easier if you were a nonprofit
to get sponsors and funding?
Lisa Diersen: it, it's a, it's a half
and half because right now sponsor
dollars are so tight everywhere.
Even people who are nonprofits sponsor
dollars are, are tough to come across.
it just, we haven't, we haven't done
gone after that yet, that part of it
yet, because it is with c when Covid
hit, I wasn't sure whether we were
going to be able to keep it going.
And then when we were able to, to
keep plugging along through having,
we, I mean we had two virtual
festivals with Covid, had to do it
completely online, wor it worked.
It, it was, I don't know how
we did it, but we did it.
And, I mean, people had fun
and people won awards and it,
you know, we pulled through it.
But, , you know, this has been a
year to regroup this, this year.
This is the first year since Covid that
we've really, you know, gotten really
back into things a hundred percent.
Rupert Isaacson: So, But basically
you're saying then that the, the EQU
Film Festival runs as a business,
like any other business, and it has
to sink or swim, depending on Yes.
so people that, so, so the people
who donate, who, who become
sponsors, what they're doing is
they're investing in a business.
Are they investing, investing in, are they
investing in it looking for a return or
are they investing in it, in it as angels?
Lisa Diersen: They're
investing as investor angels.
Yeah.
So what would you looking
to keep the, keep it going.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So if, if you are somebody out there, and
I'm sure there will be people out there,
and one of my goals with this podcast,
is to help people who want to make a
living doing the quote unquote impossible.
as you have, as I have and so on.
I want them to know what the mechanisms
are because when, when I was younger, I
couldn't really find people to mentor me
and, and answer those questions for me.
And I had to sort of piece it
together Over years, let's say
someone decides to go your route.
They say, okay, I want to do a festival.
I've been listening to
this Lisa Dison lady.
, she says, okay, that the, the
danger of going the nonprofit
route is that you could end up
getting voted off your own board.
Okay, copy that.
so now I've got to find angel
investors because my, it's not
a purely commercial enterprise.
I can't offer people a, you know, a.
Shareholder thing or something.
Not, at least not for
the first hundred years.
how do you go about
finding angel investors?
What's the ABC of that?
Well,
Lisa Diersen: one of our, one of our,
our bigger and investors is someone
who fully believes in what we're doing
mission wise with connecting the veterans
programs up with horses and, and horses
up with the veterans programs and getting
that message out across the country
and that they feel that that work.
Just, that just simply being able to get
that message out there is as important as,
you know, if it, if they were giving to a
nonprofit that was, was running a program,
just educating people that these programs
are out there is really important.
And that's, and we do that just simply
by doing what we do, being who we are,
tell being, telling these stories.
another believes in get, making
sure that the message on the
Mustang Steep keeps getting told.
And we do, we do that all the
time because that's just part of
Rupert Isaacson: a lot of our stories.
So there people out there who, who
are willing to invest, who share
the same concerns and passions.
Horses for mental health.
As you, how do you find these people?
Do?
Would you say that someone
who is, they've found us.
Right?
That's what I was gonna ask you.
So if, if someone, again is listening
to this and says, oh gosh, all
right, I'd like to do this thing.
I, I have this cause I would like
to do a festival around this.
Cause how do I find, do I go knock on
doors or is it more, you just gotta start
doing it and then people notice, just
Lisa Diersen: do it.
one of somebody asked me about this in
an, in an interview and, because when we
started this, I, I, all I wanted to do
was to have people see your documentary.
I didn't care how I was going to do it.
I didn't care what it took.
I wanted people to see.
So I was lucky.
I had a friend who owned a theater,
but unless I ask him, your, your film
isn't gonna magically appear there,
I, I had to go talk to him and, and
get him to let me use that theater.
Thank God Ron was as gracious as he was
because that's how the first festival
got off the ground it and ran for a
whole weekend in a, in a beautiful
theater with an amazing technician
running the films and me not knowing.
Anything at all about how to run a film
festival except for, okay, here's the
movies, here's where they're gonna start.
And the poor guy, I, I wasn't even putting
breaks in between the, the films, but,
you know, only by the grace of God have
I learned how to run a film festival now.
But, the first, the first year in
New York, we did it in Harlem and
did it in a theater where I had three
screens and a hundred plus movies.
And I thought, oh, this will be fun.
And I, I literally ran myself ragged
trying to help the projectionist
make sure that everything was
starting when it was supposed to.
But, you just have to do it.
You just don't sit back and go, oh,
well I can't do it because of this.
I can't do it because of that.
If you believe in what you're doing and
what, what your mission is, I hate to use
that word, but it's, I fully believe, I
mean, I was so passionate about, these
are great stories, people need to see 'em,
I'm gonna do it just so I just did it.
Rupert Isaacson: And you had, but the
reason you, you wanted people to see them
was you had already a passion for how the
horse can heal, which I presume, yeah.
I him
Lisa Diersen: for
horses, period addiction.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: But you, you yourself,
have been healed by stories of horses
as a girl, as well as by actual horses.
Yes, but had you not had access to an
actual horse and you'd been in that
household watching your mother die of
sadness, those stories about horses still
would've carried you a long way through.
No.
so yes, from that early, early experience
to now you fostered a, a knowledge that
story can heal and story about these
healing animals can heal it even more.
what are the biggest mistakes you've made,
putting all this together would you say?
Lisa Diersen: Oh my gosh,
biggest mistakes and what?
It's just not having enough money ever
to do it the way I wanted to do it.
And, and I'm not even sure that's
a mistake because that's caused,
that's created another learning
opportunity, that's taught me
another way to get something done.
So, you know, that maybe ha having,
partnering with some people that I, you
know, you partner with because you're
at you, you need to have that extra
money and to make, to make it go, you
know, to, to make the film festival go.
And it's not exactly who you,
you'd wanna partner with.
Maybe that, and I don't think
those were mistakes because through
those mistakes, through that, that.
Having that happen, I learned how to
deal with other, other parts of it.
So, you know, I learned a lot about the
WildHorse people through different things.
You know, I, I went into it like Pollyanna
thinking that if everybody loved Mustangs,
they were all, you know, everybody was
in this la la world loving mustangs.
Not knowing that there were completely
one radical group on one side and another
rabid radical group on another side.
You know, it's, it's right.
And you find yourself in middle.
Every issue is
Rupert Isaacson: that way.
I basically is the message there
that there are no mistakes.
It's just all learning curve.
Yes.
Lisa Diersen: But isn't that life?
Rupert Isaacson: I would say so.
Yes.
you know, sometimes one can
say, does it, does it have to
happen, with a baseball bat?
You know, could we not have it
happen with a polite cup of tea
and a and a blank check, please.
Lisa Diersen: but would we
learn that much, Rupert?
Would we really learn?
Would we be where we're at right
Rupert Isaacson: now?
I'm willing, I'm willing to, to find out.
I'm ready.
Well, I think what also happens too is
that when it, when it does go smoothly,
of course, and it does actually
quite a lot of the time, more, more,
more than we, we give it credit for.
I, I think what happens is, of course,
because of the negative bias in the
human brain, you know, you remember
your close encounter with the elephant.
More than you remember, or your peaceful
encounters with the elephant, because that
was the one that made a big impression.
But that also Yeah, where you learned
probably the most about elephants.
you know, I'm just saying if, if, if
you're sort of a bushman in the wild, so
I, I, but I very much agree with you that
when it seems that one has made terrible
mistakes in retrospect, generally one
looks back at those and go, oh, that
was actually where, I learned the most
about how to make this thing really work.
I just had to see that extreme of
not working in order to understand
where the middle point of working was.
but at the time I couldn't
quite see that because there
was a lot of stress going on.
but yeah, I, I, I think, I think
for listeners, you know, I grew
up always being told, oh, Rupert,
those things you want to do, you
can't make a living doing that.
You know, you can't make
a living through horses.
And I remember thinking, but there's
this thing called the equine industry.
I mean, some, someone out
there is making a living at it.
You know, why, why, why not me?
Oh, Rupert, you can't make
a living, you writing books.
Well, but there's this thing
called the publishing industry.
I mean, someone is out there fueling that.
Right?
it's not just.
publishing aristocrats or something?
No, there's, there's people
out there making a living.
I mean, films the same thing.
Why you can't do that, you know, you
got, but, and I, what I realized was that
people meant they felt that they couldn't
do it, and that if you did it, it would
make 'em feel bad about themselves.
So they would try to discourage you.
And so what you had to do
was not listen to that.
And I, I was discouraged earlier in
my life and there were a few things
I didn't do because people talked
me out of it, which I later realized
actually, I, I could totally have done.
And, and maybe will at some point.
you seem to have been somebody
who also has made your living.
You've made your living through
horses, you've made your living.
I know, I know your breeding has
been successful with the lucit as
you've, you've shown successfully.
You, you've made a great success of the
Quis Festival and you say, okay, maybe
it's not as much money as you would've
wanted, but the fact that you even have
made it into this 11th year and it's still
running and it's carrying you, it, it's,
it's, that's an extraordinary achievement.
I mean, it's, we, we know that
that's not anything to be sniffed at.
but a lot of people out there
do feel that they can't live
free and ride free as you have.
And of course, you are making a
festival that shows people living
free and riding free, literally.
what do you think people can do to unlock.
Themselves from that little
nagging voice that says they can't,
Lisa Diersen: well, don't you think
saying I can't is just your fear?
Rupert Isaacson: Well, sure, but
I mean, fear is a real thing.
So what is people's
Lisa Diersen: Right?
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
It is a real thing.
What what is what?
How, how in, in, in, in your, do you
feel people can create a practice
where they can begin to just climb
Lisa Diersen: out of that hole?
You, you, you got, you've got to, I, I
just went through this last year and I
know you went through the same thing too
when you went, and I, and I didn't get a
chance to ask you before, but like when
I, when I broke my leg last year, that
first time, well, first of all, ha having
to go almost a month before I could go
back into even maybe a month and a half
before I could even go back into a barn
and see my horse was like the worst
part of my life that I can remember.
But, that the first time I sat back on
my horse after I, I had got my boot off
and I could put, I mean the, the cast
boot and could put my, even, I, I had,
I didn't even have a riding boot on yet.
I was able to wear my barn
clog to sit back on my horse.
I, I don't wanna say it was terrifying,
but it was, I was like, oh my God,
am I really gonna do this again?
Because the, going through the, the,
the pain I had mine was a compound
spiral fracture completely out my ankle.
So it was a, it was pretty painful.
So I, your mind is saying, don't I, you
don't wanna go back through that again.
But my, I, I was just
saying I'm gonna do this.
I'm just gonna do it.
I need, I cannot go the rest
of my life not riding my horse.
I can't do that.
It's too much of a part of me.
And so I just did it.
And even if the first time was just going
and walking around the indoor arena and
getting back off of that horse again, and
this was my white stallion who I had just
gelded maybe three, four months before,
a couple months before I had my accident.
So he was still feeling all testosterone.
Still a lot of horse.
Yeah.
Still a lot of horse.
And he, even though he's 22 now
and he's still a lot of horse.
Yeah.
but I sat on him and I did it and
I, and I accomplished that and we
came out of Covid and I went, are
we gonna do the festival again Live?
But we went ahead and we just did it.
And I had that last year when we, cuz
we did it in Sacramento, California,
because that's where we ended the ride.
And, and I, and everybody
was in California.
I had a, an author come in
from, oh my God, oh my gosh.
fin not Finland, nor Norway,
I think came in, no, Sweden.
She came in from Sweden who came
all the way there, lost her luggage
at the thing, but she just did it.
She just came to the festival
cause she was so excited about
coming and being part of it.
If you ha if you just do it, just
take that first step and just do it.
It makes doing it easier every time.
The next time you do
Rupert Isaacson: something
is, is what it comes down to.
I mean, one could say feel the
fear and do it anyway, but does it
come down to basically small steps?
The idea that steps and, and what can
seem like a small step to one person
feels like a giant step for somebody else.
I I remember when I was
younger having less patience.
I was like, oh, you know,
someone's just get over themselves.
And, and then someone said, well, Ru
for example, you're terrified of eggs.
I know that it, you will rather leap
out of a first floor window than first
floor European sense, than a third
floor window, than than eat an egg.
That yes, someone pulls an egg on you.
You know, you, you, you, you
have, you have achilles heels
that you don't think you have.
well, if, if I said to just get
over it and just eat that egg and
you're sitting there overcome with
nausea and suddenly you're like a.
Little autistic child going, I, I actually
really am afraid of this even though
it's just an egg, you know, this is
not sitting in a riot in South Africa.
Or, you know, other things
that have happened to me that I
find I find the egg more scary.
I do.
And, someone pointed that out
to me and said, what would it
take for you to eat that egg?
And I was like, you know, actually
that's a really good question.
because it's become like a phobia.
and I suppose if I had to see what it'd
probably take is, you know, extreme
hunger, but let's say it wasn't that.
It would be somehow making friends with
the idea of egg, you know what I mean?
And somehow, runny texture and
the stink and all the things that
nauseate me about them, what would
I need to do to get over them?
And I realized, ah, yes, to many
people, that seems completely absurd.
and they'd say, Rupert, just get over it.
And to me that seems like this huge thing.
even though one has faced things in one's
life that are obviously much more real.
And, so I thought,
well, what would it take?
And I thought, well, I suppose it would,
it would take breaking what looks like
one step for somebody else down into
as many steps as it would take for each
one of those steps to not feel like
a big step, which could probably be
a hundred or a thousand steps, which
somebody else would roll their eyes at.
But for me or someone with a phobia
about spiders or somebody which can't
get out of bed because of depression,
you know, and I've been there, I
know you've probably been there.
it, it's that first half step, that
quarter step, that eighth of a step,
that 16th of a step, that what's
the fraction that's doable now today
And can that I, cause I, I, I, I,
I think what happens is that we all
judge ourselves by other people and
we think, let's say we wanna write a
book where you want to do a festival.
We say, well, there's Lisa
Dyson, she's done a festival,
or this person never there.
They've written a book and you've already
projected yourself in your mind to the
finished festival, the finished book.
And then there's that moment of
euphoria and then there's that.
Ah, but I can't do that
cuz I dunno how to do that.
I don't understand the mechanisms.
And then you would say, just do it.
Or just take, but really then you
said, just take the first step.
You know?
So is it about finding that first
step or that first half step or
that first fraction of a step?
Is that really what it is, do you think?
Lisa Diersen: yeah, I think yes.
For me it would be eating bugs.
But
Rupert Isaacson: see,
no problem with that.
For me, it munch bugs all day.
Yeah, totally.
Oh, as long as they don't got, as
they're not presented today, eat eggs all
Lisa Diersen: Yeah, no,
I, yeah, you just have to.
It doesn't matter how big the step, it's
just as long as the step is forward.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, I, I forget which, is it lasu or is it
Confucius or, it's one of those, it's ne
never mock somebody who is engaged in an
endeavor in which they're moving forward,
no matter how incrementally or in, no
matter how tiny a, a fashion, they are
more courageous than you, your mockery.
and they'll probably get there, and or
they'll set into process, into motion
a process where even after their death,
that thing will probably be achieved.
I guess would you say that, by
showcasing these stories about people
taking these journeys, cuz it's, it,
it seems that the, the films that
you've listed as the sort of masses,
that they're all seem to be journeys,
pilgrimages, really, to wellness.
Would you say that really what
you're doing is you're showing
people taking those steps?
There's a first step, isn't there?
The first they mount the
horse and they take a step,
Lisa Diersen: right?
Right.
Yes, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: The, the journey of a
thousand miles begins with a single step.
Mm-hmm.
Single, single hoof print.
I guess we can then follow the
traces of the hoof prints of
those who've gone before us.
Right.
And find our way.
You, okay.
So I just want to, to go back over
some of these films that you've said
that other masses, you, you, you
mentioned, riding my way back mm-hmm.
You mentioned healing horses.
Mm-hmm.
You mentioned the long rider.
Yes.
And you mentioned unbranded.
Lisa Diersen: Unbranded is
available pretty much so globally.
I think I have Healing Horse up on
the EQU Film Festival YouTube channel
or on our, on the EQU Film channel.
How
Rupert Isaacson: do people
access the EQU film channel?
Lisa Diersen: Again?
You can, there's a link right on
the front of our, it's equ film
festival.net, which is our website.
There's a, a link right on the front page
Rupert Isaacson: at
Chris Film Festival net.
Yeah.
Yep.
Lisa Diersen: And that takes
you right to the, to the, film
channel and people can subscribe.
And then, the Felipe's film, the long
writer is under, it's out for distribution
right now, so I'm not sure if they've
got their, distribution in place.
So the only place that anybody can see
that is when it we're doing one of our
tour stops with e with the film festival.
So we, I think we will be
screening that in, dur or
Westcliffe Colorado in September.
But the other film that we were
talking about too was Lady Long
Rider, which is the story about
Bernice Endy Lady Long Rider.
Right?
Yeah.
And, and that film, that
filmmaker has available.
I think if you just type in Lady
Long Rider Bernice Endy, it'll pop
up where to, to go to see that.
Cuz that's available pay-per-view on
her, on the, the filmmaker's own channel.
Okay.
And that's a, it's a
beautiful documentary.
It's, it's very well done.
It's, at that time when she filmed that
Bernice was down riding two halfling
horses across the, around the country, up
and down the, the continent, so to speak.
And so we had, we had a
documentary, A Man, a Mule America,
Rupert Isaacson: A Man Which, A mule?
A Mule, A America.
Lisa Diersen: And how do people see that?
Pardon me?
I'm just, I'm trying to remember
the name of these are, this film was
probably eight, seven or eight years ago.
But he wrote, he followed, because at
one point before the continent of the
United States was actually a continent.
It was a lost C, there was
a lost C in the middle.
And Bernie Hubbert is the,
is the filmmaker's name.
And Bernie had a mule in a, in
a little wa with a little wagon.
Like the wagon was only big
enough that he could sleep in.
And he followed that whole trail all
the way down from Canada to Mexico
to the Mexico border with his, he
a man and a mule across America.
Just the stories
Rupert Isaacson: and
exploring the Lost Ocean.
The lost prehistoric ocean.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
People Did you just look it, people
find that on what, what can, can people
find that on, Chris film festival
Lisa Diersen: net?
I I, no, he hasn't, he
hasn't got that back out yet.
It's getting re-released this
year into the film festival.
It was on PBS a few times.
Okay.
But it, he's, he's updating it and it'll
be in this year's film festival again.
Fantastic.
Rupert Isaacson: Now, you, you said
that the film festival is happening
live in Westcliffe, Colorado.
Well,
Lisa Diersen: we have one that'll
be in Westcliffe, Colorado.
That it will be a big Mustang summit,
along That's the Mustang Summit.
Okay.
Yeah.
And, and we will be screening films there.
So that's When is that?
Yeah.
September 29th and 30th, and then
October 1st, and then our main
festival is in Sacramento, California.
November 17th, 18th, and 19th.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Um, where is Westcliffe Colorado?
Lisa Diersen: Westcliffe is on the
south east side of the Rocky Mountains.
So it's, south, directly
south, about two and a half
hour drive from Denver, so maybe
Rupert Isaacson: three hours.
Denver, around Pueblo area, would you
Lisa Diersen: say?
Pueblo, Colorado Springs area.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay.
that's the Mustang Summit.
Summit south of Colorado.
So Mustang Summit the 27th.
Be 27th.
September to October 1st, basically.
Yep.
In Westcliffe, Colorado.
And then the, film festival itself
and the General Arts Festival
will be in Sacramento, November.
Again.
Give us the dates.
Lisa Diersen: 17th, 18th,
Rupert Isaacson: and 19th.
17th, 18th and 19th.
And they can get all this
information on equ film festival.net.
Yes.
On the website.
Okay.
if somebody has a, a equine arts project,
how do they submit to your festival?
Lisa Diersen: They can reach out to.
To me, via email, or they can go to the
website or reach out on our Facebook page.
But our website has
applications for the artist.
It has applications for filmmakers.
It has applications for the
podcasters and for the authors.
Perfect.
So all of those applications are
available right on the front page of the
Rupert Isaacson: website.
What is the email address that
people want to get through to
Lisa Diersen: you?
It's Lisa Equ film Festival net.
Rupert Isaacson: L i s a.
Lisa?
Yes.
Lisa Diersen: EQ uu.
S F I.
LM festival.
S festival T ia l net
Rupert Isaacson: net.
Lisa equ festival net.
Well, hopefully, some of the listeners
will be submitting some of their stuff.
You guys should, , remember,
take that step.
If you've got a, if you've got
a project, Lisa's one of the
nicest people in the world.
She's not gonna write your
letter back saying You suck.
so, and if it doesn't make it in
into the festival, she'll have
advice for you about what to do.
So, and
Lisa Diersen: if I look behind me,
there's at least 300 books in the festival
that I have on shelves just behind me.
So that have been entered
over the past couple of years.
Rupert Isaacson: And, E even if
something doesn't make it in, , what are
your words of encouragement to people?
Because, you know, th this happened
to me, you know, when I was submitting
stuff, submitting books, submitting
films, it wasn't always successful.
People didn't always take it.
but it didn't me, I didn't take that as
meaning that I should stop submitting.
Right, right.
What's, what's your word of advice
for people who are going through
that process where they're sort of
laying their baby, their work on the
line for acceptance or rejection?
Lisa Diersen: Well, I do
that every single time.
I put a start, have another festival.
I'm putting it out there for people
to either like it or dislike it.
But the, , what I can tell people
is, first of all, if you've written
something or made a piece of artwork
or created a film about something
that you're passionate about, somebody
out there is going to acknowledge it.
And it maybe you're just sending it
to somebody who doesn't understand
what you're trying to tell 'em.
And that mean doesn't mean anything.
That means that just simply the person
you sent it to wasn't the right person
to just keep trying, keep sending it.
I mean, you know what it's like
to keep sending in a manuscript
and, and being told no.
Yeah.
So you just keep trying
keep and keep at it
Rupert Isaacson: most, by the way,
most good books, most good films, so.
Were turned down Yes.
By quite a few people before
they found their homes.
and it's easy to forget that, you know,
music too, you know, bands that seem to
come out of nowhere, you know, and then
they get interviewed and like, actually
no, we were gigging for about 20 years.
It's just that we
started in middle school.
Yes, exactly.
Before we had any kind of break.
I, I agree with you.
It's, it's to keep putting one
foot in front of the other thing.
don't give up.
whether your dream is to have the
festival or whether your dream is to
put together pieces of art that get
shown in festivals or both, the art
of story and the, and, and the world.
It's interesting.
I feel that the world never
runs out of the need for story.
Lisa Diersen: Oh my gosh.
No, there's always another story.
There's al someone, every single
living human being has a story.
Everybody has their story.
Everyone has a story.
Yeah.
Everybody does.
It's, it's, and, and I think you become
an adult when you realize that everybody
has a story and you need to give everybody
kind of time to tell their story.
You know, when it j when
you figure out, oh wow.
It's not just about I'm not
special, I'm just one more story.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And yet each story is completely unique.
Yeah.
It's, and your story is healing,
if it's given the chance to be.
I agree.
. well, Lisa, thank you for coming on and
turning us on to the Healing Power Story.
Thank you for letting the listeners
know, that Equus Film Festival exists.
I would thank you, encourage you, if
you're listening and you're not into
horses, check it out anyway, because you
don't need to be horsey to appreciate
a good story, and you don't need to
be horsey to appreciate a story about,
what was it that you said sentient?
That sentient beings, the human
relationship with sentient beings
is important for human health.
maybe there'll be something to be learned.
I hope to catch up with you
at one of the festivals.
It's been a long time since I was
there, and it's sort of given me a
bit of a kick in the pants to, to,
to to, to get to it again, actually.
So I, I, I would love to.
So maybe we'll see some
of the listeners there.
any, any parting words before
we, before we close Lisa?
Lisa Diersen: Oh, anybody who wants
to, to do it and has a dream to
do it, get out there and do it.
Okay.
Everybody want, the world
is waiting for your story.
Rupert Isaacson: It's very true.
And it doesn't matter.
I, I, you know, people say, well,
who'd be interested in my story?
It doesn't matter if it's only one person.
I remember right when I was first,
trying to raise money for the human
rights work that I used to do, and it
started with an event I put together
to which five people showed up.
Lisa Diersen: Yeah, but you changed
those five people saw it Uber.
Well,
Rupert Isaacson: what happened
was one of those five people
went and spoke to someone, right?
And I, I got a phone call three months
later from someone saying, you don't
know who I am, but I've been researching
this thing that you're talking about.
And yes, I see this is a good
cause and I'm gonna back it.
And so never think that it's wasted time.
Never think that any
audience is too small.
I agree with you.
Lisa, get out there and do it.
Get out there and tell the story.
Tell the story.
Lisa Diersen: Look at what
happened because of your story.
You know, that, I mean, this is why,
this is why this festival exists.
Why?
You're, because I was
motivated by your story.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, you're very kind.
it seems to me though, that
really what happened was perhaps
my story was a catalyst for yes.
That that little girl who had had
discovered the healing power of
story decades before where she
needed that healing, in that house
with, that had had that tragedy.
And so I'm honored if my
story was a catalyst in that.
But I do know from what you said
that you'd have done it anyway.
And that's, and that's a wonderful thing.
So I'm honored to be the catalyst
in what would've in an avalanche
that would've happened regardless.
cuz you're, you're, you're, you're,
you're a pa a force of nature, Lisa.
And by the way, if you're interested
in the lucit tarno horse and you
jolly well should be cuz they're
the best riding horse on the planet.
I'm sorry, but they're, you should
check out Lisa Di as a, as a breeder.
She, the horses she's
producing are, are wonderful.
but I'll, I'll let you find
that through Google, Lisa Dis
Lisa Diersen: and, and any of those people
out there that wanna find that, that don't
have pockets full of money and want an
amazing horse, the American Mustang horse
because of the Siberian, that's very true.
Ties or the lusitano horse to the
Mustang horse's, Iberian ties because
now we found through all the d n a
research that every horse on the planet,
originated on the North American plateau.
So actually our ano horse are descendants
of the original Mustang horses.
And when those horses went.
Over the bearing straits and
came back around and went to
the Andalusian and, and Iberian
Peninsula and became Spanish horses.
They were reintroduced when the
Spaniards came to Mexico and
Con tried to conquer Mexico.
That's how the American Mustang horse got
or reintroduced with the Spanish blood.
And that's why they thrive on the North
American Plateau cause they're back home.
I mean, there's an amazing
documentary called Return of the
Horse, and I'll send you the name.
Sharon Ila Sha was that filmmaker
and that is on the EQU Film Channel.
It's probably one of
the return of the horse.
Return of the horse.
Mm-hmm.
Everybody that's a horse
person should watch that.
It's very, very, very good.
It was financed by the Spanish
Horse Foundation and, or the
Spanish Mustang Foundation.
And it's, it's a beautifully well-made
documentary about the origin through
d n a research of Quis Cabales.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just Googling it now.
Return of the Horse
Lisa Diersen: and Sharon, I think it's s
h a r r o n or l Shar was the filmmaker.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, okay.
So I'm on idb.com.
return of the Horse is a highly
researched, scientific and
historical documentary about.
The North American native horse
spanning over 57 million years.
This documentary explores the science
and history of the modern horse, its
evolution in prehistoric America, and then
return in the historical period with the
Spaniards in the 15th century, the impact
on Native Americans, and finally, the Euro
American relationship with the wild horse
from establishment in America till today.
That sounds like a must watch.
Lisa Diersen: It is, and you can
watch it on the EQU Film Channel.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
I will be there.
also what you say about Mustangs is true.
my son, Rowan, I still maintain a horse
for him, and that horse is a Mustang.
Lisa Diersen: oh, Rupert, we, you and
I need to talk further about that Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: After this.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, no, I'm, I'm, I'm absolutely sold
on the Mustang as a, as a therapeutic, as
well as a riding horse, because there's
a, there's a level of intelligence in
there that is, it's not that all horses
aren't, but Yes, you and I both know that
there's, there's something extra there.
yep.
And them solving abilities and so on.
Okay.
Well, Lisa, it's been, it's been a treat.
Thank you.
, it's, it's okay.
Thank you.
It's been an inspiration.
Those of you who don't know now
that Equi who didn't know that EQU
Film Festival exists, now you do.
So get online or go to it.
thank you for creating it, Lisa.
Lisa Diersen: Thank you for being
part of it and having me on your show,
Rupert Isaacson: Rupert.
Oh, well, I hope you'll come on again.
And, I will, whenever
Lisa Diersen: you need me.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm, well, maybe
what we could do, maybe what we
should do is we should do a podcast
from, that's what we should do.
We should do a podcast That
would be fun from from the film
Lisa Diersen: festival.
Yes.
And then we can interview and
then you could meet a whole bunch
of interesting people who would
be there in podcasts with them.
That
Rupert Isaacson: would
be a very good thing.
We could interview them right there.
Okay.
Yes.
Let's talk about that right there.
Something to look forward to.
Yep.
Alright.
Lot fun.
We'll talk.
Lisa Diersen: Okay.
Nice seeing you again.
Rupert Isaacson: Thank you for joining us.
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