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This week, Jay chats with The Reverend Robert W. Lee, a descendent of Robert E. Lee who is working to change the narrative on his legacy.
Discussing issues of Mental Health, Substance Misuse and Recovery, and Drug Use & Policy with host Jay Shifman, Speaker, Storyteller, and Advocate.
Each week Jay chats with interesting guests as they seek to destroy stigma and advocate for honest, educational conversations that motivate positive change.
You can learn more at https://jay.campsite.bio/.
Choose Your Struggle has been streamed in over thirty-five countries and is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever else you get your podcasts.
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*** Transcript is not edited for clarity
You are listening to the choose your struggle podcast, a member of the shameless podcast network.
Welcome to the choose your struggle podcast from your host, Jay Schiffman, on this show, I interview people with lived in learned experiences on the subjects of mental health, substance misuse, and recovery and drug use and policy. But occasionally we talk about other topics as well. On this week's episode, I chat with activists and author, the Reverend Robert Lee, but first kid mental let's go things.
Ain't no, it's gonna go our way you could. We been with you just, and some battles up yesterday. Wait today. When you begin choose just, and don't worry about what they say. Cause you can always win, win. You choose just, and you can bounce back yesterday. Come on in. Listen to just, just
choose just, just Lu. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the choose your struggle podcast. I'm your host, Jay Schiffman. It's great to be back with you all I will say before we get into this week's episode, uh, y'all did not care much for last week's episode. That's fine. That happens from time to time.
Um, you know, I, I don't, uh, Give much weight to, to the numbers that I see online, cuz they're really more of an indicator than anything else. But you know, the indicator did say that there was not much listenership last week. Uh, and I really didn't hear from any of you. So, um, that's okay. That's that, that happens from time to time.
Uh, before we get into this week's episode, a couple of things. Number one, uh, if you didn't tune in last week, you didn't hear this. Uh, it is that birthday fundraiser time again, uh, I'm doing something a little different this year, not a traditional fundraiser like we did the last two years. Instead, I'm reaching out and asking anyone who is interested in sponsoring, uh, Savage sister's first quote, unquote gala event.
Uh, to, to reach out, there are three levels, a thousand dollars, 3000 and 5,000. The, um, it's more of a party than a gala. They're calling it a gala because that's what you do in nonprofits. But you know, there will be some, some food and drink and that kind of thing. Some, some music at a, at a venue here in Philly, the, the, the reason that this is something that I think people should should get on is, is that there's gonna be a pretty substantial.
Uh, opportunity to promote your organization. Um, a lot of social media newsletters, um, signage, all, all that kind of stuff. The, the stuff you normally get from gala sponsorship and you get to support an awesome organization, the process. So, um, this is sort of a, a, uh, personal connection, right? I mean, you can't go online and sign up anywhere.
So just reach out to me at J J a Y. At J shiftman.com, J a Y J a Y S H I F M a n.com. And I'll get you hooked up with Sarah or Adam and, and, and whoever. So, uh, that is the ask for the birthday fundraiser this year. Uh, my birthday is in two weeks. Um, and this is the last time you're going to, I think that's right.
The last time you're gonna hear from me B before the birthday fundraiser or for before my birthday. Um, because I'm off next week for the holiday. I've got, got some friends coming in town and I, I just won't have time to do a show. So, um, we will be off next week. Now this week's episode, um, This is one that I looked forward to.
Uh, I reached out to, to this young man on, on, on Twitter because I'm a big fan of his work and he couldn't have been more welcoming, more gracious, more, more open to, to chatting. And I was so, uh, thankful for that, especially right now. Since I last dropped an episode, obviously the, the, this what remained of the values of this country are gone.
It's just, um, you know, my wife and I were, were out at the, the protest March last week. Um, and, and it's not just abortion, although obviously that's, that's a big one. It's the fact that in the same week, the Supreme court said states cannot decide to. Uh, weapons of, of violence, guns. Uh, everyone is just now allowed to carry a gun anywhere, uh, but they can restrict healthcare for women.
So, you know, um, that's the fucking values of this country. Uh, you can murder all you want. You can carry around your weapons of, of destruction, but God damnit women, you better not take care of your bodies. Um, Yeah, fuck the Supreme. Fuck. All of our elected officials. And there was more right. I mean, they, they, they took away the right to Sue police who, Val, who violated your, your, your human rights.
And it's just awful. Everything is awful. But this conversation today, um, It didn't gimme hope. I don't have any hope right now. And I say this on the outro. I say more about this. I don't have any hope, but at the same time, it was a pleasure hearing from someone who is fighting the good fight and, and does have a little bit of hope.
And that person is the Reverend Robert W. Lee. Um, the Reverend, uh, Roby is an author and he's an activist. He's a commentator, a, a, a preacher, obviously by the, by the name. Uh, his work has appeared all over. You may have seen him on MTV, uh, video music awards. He's been on the view, the New York times, the new Yorker, CNN NPR.
I, I, I, the list is here in front of me. I'm not gonna read it all. It just, he is, he is well known and, and, and if you Don. Know him from any of that. Um, you know, him from his name because as the name suggests he is a descendant of Robert E. Lee, uh, but unlike his, uh, very famous, great, great, great. He, he goes through it obviously in the interview.
It's great uncle. Um, Rob is actually an activist engaged in the field of racial reconciliation. Um, He is a guy who speaks very openly about what we call the lost cause. And we talk about that on this, this interview, uh, and about changing, uh, the narrative that we allow, some people to, uh, to blatantly, uh, throw around that is just false about what the civil war was.
Um, and, and the, the using the. Terrible act in our country's history to perpetrate violence on many individuals and mostly, almost all, um, people of color, especially black people in this country. Uh, Rob was raised in the United Methodist, uh, church, the, the broad street United Methodist church in, uh, Statesville, North Carolina, where he still lives with his wife, uh, and their poodle.
As he talks about in this interview, uh, he and his wife adopted two daughters, Athena and Phoenix. Uh, and, and they are what gives him hope. So, so props for that, I, I will say sort of one fun thing is that Rob and I are both, uh, memorabilia, autograph collectors. And we didn't, we don't really get into that on those interview.
We did a little at the end, but, uh, we've talked a lot about that since, and. Like me, he's a big star war fan and that's been really fun. So I wish I had more to say right now, I'm still getting my thoughts sort of in line. Uh, when I come back from break, you'll hear more from me on that and just everything happening in the world.
But I guess without further ado, enjoy this conversation with the truly, truly wonderful Reverend Robert w. Thank you for supporting the show here at choose your struggle. We rely on all of y'all to help us end stigma and promote honest and fact based education around mental health, substance misuse, and recovery and drug use and policy.
And there's so many ways to engage with our work from our podcast to our storytelling events, to bring me in, to speak to your company, your school or your organiz. You can also support us on Patreon for as little as $3 and 40 cents a month. And we're so appreciative. This work is grueling at times and your support goes a long way to helping us keep going.
So find us@chooseyourstruggledotcomandfindmeatjayschiffman.com. And thank you. Thank you for being a part of the choose. Your struggle, who Jesus choose your who? Jesus sparkle. If you're liking the show, please consider leaving us a review. If you're listening on apple, you can leave a review right on your player for everybody else.
Check out the link in the show notes. welcome back to another episode of the choose your struggle podcast. I am here with a, with a guy today. This is gonna be a fun conversation and, and we'll start right off with the fact that, uh, it's a name that I'm gonna guess most of you know, and, uh, Rob, I'm sure you get that joke joke a lot.
Uh, my guest today is, is, is Rob Lee. Rob, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having. So, uh, funny question to start off. Do people ask you about that name a lot? Does that come up or, or, or are you known well enough now that people know who you are and it's not a joke? Well, well, it actually happened yesterday as store someone mentioned, oh my gosh, your name's Robert Lee.
Uh, cuz I handed him my debit card and it ended up being one of those things where people were. It's always that awkward dance of like, are they happy about that? that, that, that it's Robert Lee. Cause I live in the south and people think that there's this like, you know, unique connection to Robert Lee, Robert E.
Lee, that the Confederate general. And so I'm like, you know, I never know how to respond. I'm like, yeah, that that's, that's my name. and, and it always turns out to be an interesting conversation, but, but it's also led to a lot of. Substantive change in my own life and, and change in the life of, of our country as we, we reckon with what's going on with, with the terrible legacy of the south and the terrible legacy of the Confederacy.
So, uh, before we get into your connection, obviously, uh, this is something that, you know, everybody loves to say, I've heard probably three or four times in my life. Oh my great uncles, whatever was Robert E. Lee, right? I mean, people. For certain people, it is a mythos of being connected to, to, to that general.
Do you get people who tell you that, those stories and then you're like, well, actually, yeah. I mean, I do. I think that people like being connected to someone, whatever that connection might be, you know, I've heard it from, from, from Robert E. Lee, but there's other people that say, you know, oh, I'm related to, to, to whoever.
And they try to make that connection. It's, it's actually out of a deep, well of wanting to be. Be in that conversation for whatever reason. Right. Um, you know, even people think that I wasn't related to Robert E. Lee even bearing the name and the legacy. So we had to go and get a 500 page genealogical report, uh, that came out earlier this year.
To prove that I was related to a man that I don't actually care for. Like, I don't actually like Robert E. Lee, I don't wanna do this. Like, you know, I don't like the song and dance of being related to the man. Um, but ultimately I had to prove, because I was saying things about him, that people in the south didn't like.
That I was actually related to Robert Lee. So it was actually kind of the opposite effect of that, of having to prove it, um, which is not easy because you know, the records aren't the best and you know, in the family. So you have to go elsewhere, you have to get all the, the, the records you can. And that took time and effort.
But all that's to say is people, people like those connections for whatever reason. And I wish they would be far more concerned with connecting with people who are in this world now who are needing help. Now, who are, who are, who are actually in the struggle. To borrow from your podcast now. I mean, like, you know, I wish people would be far more concerned with that than a man who lived 150 years.
Really well put, uh, thank you for saying that. And obviously we'll spend the second half of the show talking about your work on, on that regard. Uh, but as we get into your story, just so to help myself and the listeners, what is, uh, great, great, great. What, what is the connection to Robert E. Lee? So my relationship to him is nephew.
Uh, and so I'm a nephew coming down the line of one of his, uh, relatives. And so you connect that by greats people connect that by greats. So I'm a great, great, great. Great grand nephew. So I know that's complicated, but when you get into family lineage, it's actually very important for people who care about this to get it right.
And that's what I've tried to do. I've always said, you know, I'm a descendant, I'm a collateral descendant, meaning. That I am not a direct line. I don't have a direct line like Robert E Lee's not my grandfather, so many greats, and I've always been clear about that. I don't want people to think I'm misrepresenting myself and that's been really frustrating to see people think that like, I'm, you know, people get it wrong when they're saying that when they're introducing me or saying things about me, And I have to correct them, not because I, I, I, I want to correct them, uh, to, for the sake of being writer for the sake that I care.
But for the sake that other people care, that's been the weird thing in all of this, Jay, is that people actually care so deeply. Because I'm trashing the man and I think he's got issues and I think we need to address those issues. Uh, they think that that is somehow because of my connection to him, they have to prove me wrong.
So, so let's get into that then. I mean, in your family, You know, you are very outspoken on, on your beliefs on this. W was that, did that come from your household or were there members of your household who household who took the other side and were very proud of that connection? So my, my immediate family has been very proud of the work I've done.
They've always been proud and supportive of the work that I've done. They're also like my dad's an engineer, my mom's a nurse. They don't really care about this stuff as much until it came into the public conversation. Um, here in the past five years, um, it just wasn't something that affected them and I don't blame them for that.
I don't blame them for that. I actually celebrate the fact that they allowed me to create my own opinions about this stuff. You know, so many people are brainwashed nowadays about this stuff. And, you know, growing up, I was proud of Robert E. Lee. I, I admitted, I had a Confederate flag in my bedroom. Uh, I had a, you know, A a, a PA a poster of Robert E.
Lee and a postcard of Robert Lee framed and up in my room. I mean, this, this was, this wasn't me. You know, this was just rampant, nostalgia. I think they could become dangerous if left unkept, but my parents weren't actively, you know, in the conversation saying, you've got to have that flag up. You've got to have that post up.
They were just letting me form my own opinions or for writer for wrong. Uh, and we could. Talk all day till the cows come home about whether that was right or wrong of them. But all that's to say is that I am thankful for them. I'm thankful for their support. Um, as we get further out, beyond my immediate family, into other purviews of the Lee, uh, Family tree, which is a very, very large family tree.
There are a lot of people, which is why I'm never, you know, you mentioned earlier, people say, I might be related to Robert D. Lee. I never try to correct them immediately because I, I, they might actually be, it's a huge family, uh, with huge, you know, caveats and, and inroads and stuff like that, that make it hard to, to, to really tell.
So all that's to say is. Those people that are further out from me, have a big problem with it. Um, they do not like the fact that I am trashing our family, which I'm not. I'm actually asking us to be honest about our family out of love for our family and out of honesty and integrity. And what does it mean directing with something that isn't actually that good?
Uh, I, you know, Jay down here in the south, I know you're kind of up north, but, but down here in the south, we have made an idol of Robert E. Lee. I mean, he is on street signs and statues and schools. I mean, this man is the epitome of the Southern gentleman, uh, the Southern Christian gentleman, right. I at, and as a pastor, Someone who's like a clergy person.
I actually find that abhorrent because there are a million people that I would put above him in terms of their, their ability, uh, to have that conversation about what it means to be a Christian in the south. So my listeners know when I started this show back in early 2020, I was actually living in Charleston, South Carolina, where my wife is from.
Uh, and, and, uh, you know, the. The big conversation down there for people who aren't as familiar with this, uh, is really what we now call the lost cause idea of, of, of the, uh, the civil war. And it's really easy to be like, oh my God, this is like absurd. But if you're, if you're brought up in that, if you're taught that it's it's I guess a little understandable.
To, to swallow that hook, line sink, or did when you had the, the Confederate flag and all that kind of stuff. Was that because you had been taught and I'm saying in the home, but somewhere in your life, this idea of the lost cause of, of the civil war, is that how you came to, to being such a supporter? Yes.
And I think it's important before we start talking about the lost cause to explain what the lost cause is in detail for your listeners. The lost cause started soon after, uh, actually Robert E. Lee died. He was president of Washington college in Lexington, Virginia, and at his funeral, uh, people spoke up who were former Confederate generals, uh, kind of creating this, meet ethos, this legendary figure of Robert E.
Lee. And not only that, but of the narrative of. The civil war. Why was the civil war fought? Was it fought for the continued enslavement of black people in this country or was it fought for, um, Southern rights? And the idea that the Southern rights states rights were more important than the federal system.
And so the people in the lost cause started to lean towards that more than anything. Um, and, and they started to create Robert E. Lee into this grandiose figure. Um, so, so, so when I went to school, I went to a private Christian school for, for a little bit. And I remember them telling me it was the war of Northern aggression.
It wasn't called the civil war. It was the war of Northern aggression. And that was really. Confusing for, for either second grader to hear that . But, but, but yeah, you know, that's the thing I think down here we have. This, this ethos, this, this ethos, this, this understanding that this war was about state's rights.
But I think Jay, the problem is, is we never finished that sentence. It's the state's rights to enslave people. That's why they fought the civil war. That's why they fought this war, whatever you wanna call. It was for the enslavement of black people. And you can say what you will, you know, I've heard people try to trash Lincoln and try to trash, you know, the north or the United States as it should be actually called, you know?
And then they all had their problems. Yes. But they were fighting again against the peculiar institution of slavery. Um, so, so we have to consider that in our, in our determining who was right and who was. Well put, thank you for that. So, you know, you grew up in, in a, in a religion household that has very clearly influenced your, your, uh, life.
But, you know, there is obviously, uh, varying degrees of other sort of points of personal pride and in the south that. Being from the south is a part of that. You know, it sounds like you tapped into that kind of early on. When did that start to wane? When did you start to go? You know, maybe there's another point to this story that I'm not hearing.
Well, I, I don't know if it ever waned. I think it changed. Um, I'm very proud to be from the south. I'm proud of our religious history, our food culture or, or, or, or, or, or the way we live our lives, I think is very profound and very unique. But what started to change for me was the encounters I had, uh, with black people, um, to, to put it very frankly.
Uh, I met a woman who was, uh, I knew a woman named Bertha Hamilton, who was my confirmation mentor at church. Uh, and we started to have conversations. I talk about this in my book as sin, by any other name, I think with racism and the heritage of the south. Um, but I, we started to have conversations about that flag and about that poster that was on my wall.
And she said, honey, you've gotta take that down. If you wanna be someone who is, who is ultimately going to be a minister like you can't minister to people. If you have these symbols of hate in your bedroom, Hanging from your walls. How is that congruent with what you were called to be? And that hit me like a, like a ton of bricks, man.
I mean, it was one of those things that was just, I, I couldn't, I couldn't process that correctly. I had to take the flag down that there was no choice after that, after I had been called out. Now I wanna be clear here in, in the work I've done, I've realized it is not incumbent upon black people to tell white people what to do and how to fix our issue.
But I am nonetheless thankful that miss Bertha had the courage and the determination to tell me that, um, it is not, you know, again, we've got to get our own stuff together, but that doesn't mean that, you know, it's, it's, it's one of those things that, that we have to work together on. So, um, all that's to say is that was a very huge change point for me.
It happened in middle school. Um, After that I started to address it in my own life and pursued ministry. Uh, and you know, I know, uh, I've listened to your podcast. I love your podcast. And I know I'm a very unique guest in that regard being a pastor. Uh, but, but I'm, I'm a cool pastor. I like to think. I'm not like for mean girls, you know, I'm not that kind of pastor.
I'm not that kind of mom. I'm a cool mom. I'm not that kind of pastor. I'm a cool pastor. Uh, so, so it works, you know, I, I, I love being with people. I love the idea that that being in relationship is far more compelling to me. Than not being in relationship with people. And that same is true with, with, with this, this lost cause narrative, I would far rather be in relationship with people who don't look and sound and act like me, uh, than not, uh, that is, that is the far more compelling narrative, uh, than anything.
Man. That was all so well, put, I got chills when you were saying, uh, miss Bertha's words. I, I, I'm already gonna say this right now. That's gonna be the, the, the clip that the preview for this episode, that was really, really beautiful. Um, yeah, you are right. That I think that, that, you know, most of my listeners are not very religious.
I. But, uh, you very clearly are approaching this from such an interesting and cool perspective. So let's talk about that for a second. It sounds like that was very influential for you when you were young. Uh, were you one of those people, you know, cause we, we hear these stories all the time where they say I'm gonna be a minister, I'm gonna be a priest or whatever when they're young and some people then go when they're older.
Okay. I don't really wanna do that. It sounds like you followed through on those, those once, you know, Jay, I did, but the thing for me has always been. That I never fit into a mold of what a minister should be. I'm far more concerned with being with people, um, with finding their stories and the importance they're in.
Um, you know, it's easy to get caught up in the doctrine and the dogma, that stuff concerns me far less nowadays than it used to. Um, because as a Christian, it's not my job to be perfect. It's not my job to get other people to be perfect. It's to walk alongside them and make sure that they feel that the fullness of who they are.
Is important. Um, you know, God didn't create us as mistakes. God created us for the fullness of being alive. And, you know, I was listening, you know, this is a little off topic, but I was listening to one of your episodes that, uh, about someone who was, was using heroin. And I thought to myself, you know, gosh, some people in the church would, would just be so incredibly.
Uh, they would be, they would be over this. They would change the channel. Right. They wouldn't listen to that podcast. I wanna be someone who listens to that podcast and not only listens to that podcast, but finds a way to connect with people who are so deeply down or so deeply. You know, in that space, that, that, that I could be there for them, whatever that looks like, you know, you know, and celebrate them for who they are, because God didn't, again, God didn't make any mistakes.
And for us to, to, for the church to address that as such is really a grave set, in my opinion. So it would be, uh, fair to say that you are a harm reduction, uh, member of the church you're meeting people where they are. That would be fair to say. That would be fair to say. So, so let me ask about this then, because I have a good friend who, who is very religious and, and I am not, and we have these wonderful conversations because, you know, and, and, and I would say the same thing to you is that if.
Person who, uh, was coming from religious place at the same mindset of view of, of sort of exploration and understanding and love. Wonderful. I mean, that's fantastic. But unfortunately, when we hear about the, the overtly religious, most of the time in our news, uh, you know, right now as we're recording this, the big thing is, um, there's, uh, what's the thing.
It was Lauren Bober. One of the people on Twitter, who, who. Put out a statement that, you know, we should be taking our kids to church, not drag shows and stuff like that. Right. How do you, how does this make you feel when it's like you're using the same thing that I hold? So dear, as a coul, as a thing to beat people over the head with.
Well, you know, I'm incensed by it. It pisses me off, um, because that's not the God I know. And in fact, I responded to representative bobbers tweet with a picture of, of, um, me at a drag show that my church, my former church, that I was serving, hosted the church that I most previously served was 85% LGBTQ.
Uh, so we would have drag shows on the lawn after church. And, you know, that's the kind of God, I would be far more concerned with knowing than Lauren Bobbit's God, because I've gotten to the point, Jay, where there, I actually think they're different gods and maybe Lauren's is a little G God, you know, that is not the God that I serve.
That is not the God that I know the God I have come to know would be at the drag shows, uh, and celebrating that the God I would know would be in the harm reduction clinics. The God I have come to know would be in the slums of our cities. Um, you know, that's where I need to be because that's ultimately where God is.
Um, so I'm far more concerned with that than I am with representative Bob's reality. Now I recognize that I am a minority in that regard, in some ways, especially in this part of the country where I live in North Carolina, there are people that, that, that, that far more subscribed to that mentality than to mine.
Um, And, you know, in some ways I worry about changing them and in some ways I'm just like, you know, they're never gonna change. I just need to serve the God. I know. And that God will sort it all out in the end. So that's again, I mean, man, you're killing this. Uh, but we, you know, we're, we're having this national conversation right now about the rise of, of white Christian extremism and rightfully so.
I mean, religious extremism as a whole, it can be very scary. And right now we're in this mode of white Christian extremism. You know, you are a person who is uniquely, I think, trained and, and, and learned and how to. talk with people who may fall into that camp, you know, how do you have those conversations or, or is it more, as you just said, the second part where you just go, I don't think we can.
Well, I think there's some people that you can have the conversation with. It's like the holy middle, right? Like the people in the middle who are willing to have those conversations, I'm I'm ready. Let's do it. Let's talk right now. Um, reach out to me. Um, but that said there's other people that are so far to the right, so far extremist.
That there will be no reaching them. And, and there that's, that's part of it. I think that's part of the activism that I've had to learn, but Jay I've also learned that there's people that may have never heard of anything, like being a pastor, being in the church, you know, being in someone who is concerned with social justice.
And that's why I ultimately decided to go on the MTV VMAs and on the view and all these other shows and talk about these issues that we're talking about now. Not because I wanted VA you know, fame or fortune or because I was vain. But because I actually believed that for someone to see a minister standing on the, the stage of the MTV video music awards for Christ's sake and saying, look, there's a different way of doing this, uh, that sent shockwaves ultimately.
And that wasn't just me. It was a. Group of people who planned it and made it happen, but it sent shockwaves through the conversation because people said, if this minister can actually change with a name like Robert E. Lee or Robert W. Lee who's related to Robert E. Lee, then I can too. Amazing man. And, and before we get into what that work literally looks like, let's pause.
And if you wouldn't mind shouting out where people can find you where they can get the book, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So, uh, I've written a few books, but the book that you're probably most interested in in this conversation is a sin by any other name. Reckoning with racism and the heritage of the south.
It was put out by penguin, random house convergent books. Uh, so you can find that wherever books are sold, um, Amazon, your local book seller, all that stuff. I prefer local book sellers, if you can wanna support them, but you know, if you have no other choice, uh, of course the big box sellers have them too.
Uh, I would also encourage you to find me on Twitter at Rob Lee four. Uh, I have a clergy collar on, in the picture, so I'm pretty easy to find I'm on Instagram at, at rev, Rob Lee. And, uh, again, I have also gotta mention it while I'm on here. I have a podcast, a beloved journal, a beloved journal is we've had some cool guests from Beto O'Rourke, uh, to Don lemon, to people from all over the, the spectrum of faith.
And non-faith talking about what it means to be beloved and age that lacks love leaders. Um, so I hope you'll check it. Hey all it's Jay, your host. I'm so excited to tell you about my merch partner T public T public is the best site for independent creators. And it's why you can find all of choose your struggles merch on their site.
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Support us on Patreon. Check us out at patreon.com/choose your struggle or at the link in your show notes. This is something I talk about a lot on my show as a guy in recovery, you know, we, we say there's two different, important dates in recovery when you enter recovery. And when you first start talking about it, right, and as it applies to your work, you know, there, you've had this amazing kind of change in your mindset in, in, in your reckoning with some of these things.
But. For a lot of people just having that is enough and that's wonderful, but you took that extra step and said, I'm gonna start doing something about this. What was the moment that made you start doing that and, and kind of set you off on this path? The first public moment that I actually came out as a descendant of Robert E.
Lee concerned with these issues was actually after, uh, the mother Emmanuel shooting in, in Charleston a few years back. Um, The, the shooter, uh, who took those nine lives, um, idolized, Robert E. Lee in the Confederacy. And there is nothing good about that. No good can come from that. I've had the chance since then to meet, uh, the, the daughters of pain Middleton doctor, who was one of the victims, uh, of, of, and we interviewed them for an MTV special that I interviewed her, the, the suited daughters.
And, um, that was good, but it wasn't because of anything good that happened. There is pain in our world. And to not address it at a moment like this would make me complacent and complicit. Um, it's, it's like in a sense, from what I know about people in recovery, if the people around you aren't healthy, uh, how can you yourself become healthy?
Ultimately you've gotta surround yourself with people who are, who are really to hold you accountable. And that's what I've tried to do is because racism is a disease. Uh, it's a disease, it's a scourge on our nation. It's their, our original sin. And to not talk about it, uh, at a moment like this would actually make us complic.
In the narrative and look, Robert E. Lee will always be the more famous Robert Lee, but I will do everything in my power to be a footnote. Uh, that is a different, Robert Lee said something different about his famous ancestor. Beautifully said, so you, you, you, you know, you come out after this, this, uh, terrible tragedy and, and my listeners know, I, I was, uh, lucky enough to work with, uh, um, Chris Singleton, whose mother Paris in that event.
And he's been on this show and is a very wonderful guy. Um, And as I'm sure, you know, I, I can relate it from the first time I told my story on of recovery. It really kind of shoots you out of a cannon when you start heading in this direction. And you've, you've done such incredible work around that. I, I can imagine, you know, we kind of talked about some of the negatives earlier, but.
I can only imagine that, that there's also been a lot of wonderful moments of people who have embraced what you've had to say. And really, I, I would hope have been changed by it. Yes. And I think it's important to remember in all of this, that the people who come alongside you are the people who will help you get it, get it done.
Um, you know, after I was on the view will be Goldberg came up to me and she said this on the show too, but she said, I'd actually come to church. If you were a pastor at a church, um, here in the city. And I was like, that's such an honor, but, but I took it to heart because what it meant was what I was saying was resonating with her.
In a way that was, was healthy and, and, and not the, this church speak that has been also complicit. Let me state emphatically, it has been complicit in the racist, overtones and undertones in our country. Um, the church has done a wonderful job of helping out with that, um, in a terrible way, but all that's to say is that, you know, What I've come to know is the people who are on this journey who want to be on this journey, who want to have these conversations in a deep and profound way are finding ways to do it in creative ways.
Um, you know, after the, um, after the 2020 election, Dr. Jill Biden asked me to write devotionals for her. So I was able to do that. And so, so just because we were willing to have these conversations, these deep conversations about what's wrong with our country and how we can fix it together. Um, because all of it spurs from, from this place of, of, of division and not knowing each other.
Uh, and I know that's an oversimplification, it's a gross oversimplification, but it actually works. If you look at it, um, you know, there's, there's so many things that are wrong with this country, but if we actually got to know each other and talked about our problem, Truthfully honestly, and with a sense of, of human dignity in it, like you're actually, okay.
I can disagree with you and, and still find your worth in your humanity. Those things would actually change the world, uh, from, from, from the, from the bottom up. So I think those are important conversations to have. Uh, and I've been trying to do that with people who, anybody who will listen honestly for, from, from, from down the street to the white house.
And I think that's really important. Um, so you just gotta be willing to talk to people, see where they are and I, I could not cosign that enough. That's so beautifully put. So let's, let's kind of close this circle then in, in the terms of, you know, as you said that there are a lot earlier. There are little people let's say from the, the, the righteous middle, I think is what you called it.
You can be reached in that, in that way, you know, but then we're hearing all these, uh, sort of, you know, big names or whoever who are not they're they're on the other end they're they don't see our humanity and, and especially the humanity of people of color in, in this country. Where are you finding hope?
Where, where are you? What is inspiring you lately to say, Hey, you know, maybe there is some chance here that we're gonna clean this thing. I had someone who is rather famous. Tell me that what the work I'm doing is intergenerational work, meaning that I will never, I might not see it through to the end. Um, and that's been true in some of the work I'm doing.
I know that I won't see this, like. At 30 years old, I won't see the rest of this come to pass probably in my lifetime. It's a generational change that needs to take place. It still needs to take place. So what has given me hope is honest to God and it's so weird. I never wanted to be a parent, but, uh, a a year ago, my wife and I adopted two, two girls.
Um, from, from the county over from us who were in social services, uh, which, you know, if you're thinking of adopting, that's a sidebar, I really hope you go through social services and, and, and maybe not so much the, the private agencies, the Christian agencies that have ulterior motives and all that, uh, people are need in your community.
People are needing help in your community. Now, um, all that's to say is, uh, my kids give me hope because they see things differently. Even at three and five than I ever did. When I was there, their age, um, they have a deep sense of justice. They have a deep sense of righteousness of like, what is right. What is good and I hope and pray that I don't fuck that up.
you know, I hope and pray that I don't mess that up and make that something that's that's that that's not good because they have this sense. And that's where the generational change will come in. This, Robert Lee may not be able to get it done, but my girls who bear the name, Lee might be able to. Um, so, so you kind of have to look at it that way, and I know that's discouraging and I get that, but it also gives me a lot of hope too.
If I can just leave this world a little better, uh, than where I found it. Um, then I will have done my job. Well, that's beautiful and mazel 12 under adoption. That's wonderful. Yeah. So we've mostly spent the last, you know, this time together talking about your anti-racism work, which is phenomenal, but as you and I discussed previously, you also are an advocate around mental health.
Let's talk a little bit about that now. How did that start? And, and what made you make that decision to, to, to also go in that direction? Well, how it started was the necessities of the mother of all invention kind of thing. I have bipolar too. Um, I am very honest about it and open about it on social media, which, um, you know, to some people is, is, is, is abhorrent.
You know, how can a pastor be honest about his struggles, which is, makes no sense to me on this planet. Um, you know, I would rather be, have someone who's honest about everything, honest about their trials, their joys, everything. And that's what I try to do is be honest about it. Um, but I do have bipolar.
Disorder. And I've been very honest about it, Jay, because I think that the more people, you know, it's amazing, my DMS light up every time I post about it, because people say, you know, I wish that we could talk about this more openly. I wish we could have these conversations about what medications we're on, why we're on the medications.
Um, you know, why we're treating ourselves in the way we are and you know, what resources do you have? Can we share resources? Is that okay? And of course you have to have boundaries in that as you well know, but, um, it is good to, to see that people are willing to have those conversations, um, and talk about it because it it's it's, you know, it's like me having high cholesterol.
I've gotta treat it. Uh, if I don't I'll be screwed. Same with high cholesterol. You've gotta treat it if you don't, you'll be screwed. So I think that we have to be honest about these things and therefore trustworthy. And in our trustworthiness, we find that other people are saying kind of the me too kind of syndrome, you know, oh, that's me too.
I get it. Um, I get this, uh, and that provides solidarity, which is ultimately in, in any struggle, in any reality, in anything that we face. That is what is that? That is what helps the most is this idea that I'm not alone. Uh, you know, that solidarity piece is so important. A as my listeners know, with my story, you know, it was a misdiagnosis of bipolar too, and, and it took meeting beautiful, wonderful people with bipolar too.
To, for me to go wait, this doesn't look familiar and then meeting again, wonderful people struggling with addiction for me to go, Hey, wait a. This, this, this I know. Um, but I, that couldn't have happened for me. You know, this was 12 years ago now. Um, I think it would've been a lot easier now because more people like you and are being open about this.
And we're trying to, as, as my, my listeners know, as I say on the show all the time and the stigma. Take away that stigma around these issues and, and talk about them in the open. So, you know, thank you so much for doing that. Um, you know, you, this was the necessity for it, but still taking that leap can be very difficult.
Uh, was this something where you went, you know, I'm already out there about all this anti-racism work, so I'm gonna start talking about this more openly. Was there not even a conscious decision about that? Was it just, Hey, you know what? This is just who I. I think it was the latter. I mean, you know, I'm far more comfortable now than I was, or, you know, 10 years ago when I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder.
Um, talking about who I am. Um, but that came with this idea, you know, I'm a public figure in some sense of the word, whatever that means. And, and, and I would far, you know, I think people need to know that about people. Like they need to know that I have something that, that makes me really, you know, I tweeted about it yesterday.
It was hard to watch OB one Kenobi, the, the, the, the series on Disney plus that I really love. I just couldn't find the energy to pick up the remote to turn it on. I was that kind of down. And I tweeted about it and, and you would be amazed at the people that just said, you know what? I get that. I get that.
Um, and, and so that solidarity piece actually goes both ways. It provides me with the comfort of knowing I'm not alone either. Like, and I will get through this and you too, uh, listeners, uh, will get through this. If you're struggling with something. Um, you know, that's the point of it all is, is to make sure that we know that we're in this together.
And that's been a constant theme for me, both in my anti-racism work in my mental health advocacy. In knowing that we're gonna get through this, uh, together, if we do it together, So you are this incredible advocate, you know, been all over. What is your actual, you know, day to day look like? I mean, are, are you at a church right now?
What is your community? I mean, have they embraced this? What, what does that look like? So I do speaking work. So I travel around the country. Um, you know, people can reach out to me, uh, on Twitter or wherever, and there's plenty of like places to find out how to get in touch with me about that. Um, but, but I do that in churches and non churches, government agencies, stuff like that, speaking.
So I do a lot of traveling right now. I also have the privilege. My wife is an amazing director of marketing. Uh, so I get to stay at. During the day with my kids and do writing, writing books, I'm writing books and all that stuff. And also, you know, tweeting. Um, but I get to stay home with my girls, uh, for the summer.
And that's really exciting. Um, and, and something, I, again, that was something I never thought I'd want to do, but I'm really excited to be doing it. Um, but so the work continues. Um, you know, I've served a church up until about a year ago. Uh, when I, we adopted the girls and I, we decided it best for me to hang out with them and do some travel work as well.
That's pretty beautiful. Amen. As my listeners know, too, I could not do this work without my supportive wife. So props, props, the both of our partners for yes. There you go for being, for being amazing in that respect. Well, you and I could do this, uh, for a long time and, and we haven't even gotten into our, our shared hobby of, of memorabilia and autograph collecting, but, uh, we'll save that for another one.
Before we go to the final questions, if you wouldn't mind, uh, shouting out one more time where people can find you online, buy the books, all the good. Again, you can check out your local book seller or one of the big box sellers and find a sin by any other name, reckoning with racism in the heritage of the south.
Um, I have two other books out currently stained glass millennials and the pulpit and the paper. I have another book coming out, uh, this year, uh, it's a fostering and adoptive prayer book for those people who want a resource that's non colonialistic, uh, and you know, really forward thinking about adoption and not, you know, trying to create racist, overtones, or undertones or anything like that, or colonialistic overtones or undertones.
Um, and then I've got a star Trek devotional that's coming out later this year. Which is really exciting that talks about star Trek, the next generation, uh, you can find information about me at, at Roblee four or on Instagram at rev Roblee I also have a public Facebook page and I'm supposed to plug, but I don't use it as much, but you're welcome to like me.
I would really appreciate that. uh, I'm trying to use it more now, but you know, Facebook is of the devil sometimes. so, uh, yeah, that's where you can find me. And I'm happy to enter into a conversation with you if you need it. Oh, man, I I'm with you too. I like always forget to, to use my, my, exactly. It's it's on the bottom of the list, but I try to use it now.
So I'm trying um, that's really cool about the, the star Trek Devo all that's. That's awesome, man. So before we, or every episode we finish with the same two questions, uh, the first of which is, uh, we've talked a lot about mental health and you're very open about yours. What are your self-care habits?
I wish I had better self-care habits. Um, , I'm more about at selfcare sometimes if I'm being honest, but I will say that the thing I love to do right now and have been working really hard on is, uh, uh, you know, uh, Chrono chronicling, excuse me, chronicling, uh, my autograph collection. And we were talking about that on Twitter.
Um, I have a huge autograph collection that I love. I'm looking at 'em all right now in my office as we're recording. Um, there's some of my, some of my prize possessions. So I'm actually going through and make sure I have, 'em all listed down for insurance purposes. Cuz as you know, Jay, some of those things are worth the money.
Um, so we wanna make sure we care for them and, and make sure we take care of 'em. So it's been fun to go through, like the binders that I have that aren't framed and kind of see, you know, what it is that I have that I really cherish and, and, and know what's around me, which is good. I also love walking my poodle, Frank, um, Frank is my dearest trend and companion on this life.
Uh, he is such a great dog. And so my wife and I will often go on walks with him. Then we really enjoy that. I, I recommend both of those. I do the same, our, our dog Nell and, and yeah. You know, my listeners know I've been a memorabilia autograph collector for a long time. And I also recently did. For insurance reasons like going through and making sure I had everything chronologic, chronologically O ordered.
And it is very cathartic in a way of really sort of being able to put things in order and have it all in front of you. It, it really does the, the mind. Good. So I, I definitely echo that one. Uh, the final question we always finish with is, uh, now that we've spent the last almost 40 minutes hearing why you're amazing why we gotta be following your work.
This is your chance to shout out some other people who you're reading. What are you watching, listening to anything you. So I would really recommend, uh, on a non, like anything matters, you know, nothing compared to what we were talking about, but I would recommend the Kenobi series. That's what I'm watching right now.
Star wars fans. You will love this series. It's a mini series. It's the six episodes. We're up to episode four right now. So two more to go. It's easy to catch up to. I really, I mean, I love it. I, it is, it is everything. It brings me back to like this nostalgic child, uh, who is watching the show and seeing everything that matters.
Uh, currently I am looking back at my bookshelf and I've got a lot of books on there, but the book that I've the person I've been reading a lot of. Lately is, uh, Archbishop Steven Coro, who I know that a lot of people may have never heard of. He is the current Archbishop of York. He is the most down to earth Archbishop you will ever meet.
Um, he's on Twitter. He's very active there. Uh, he's the Bishop in the church of England. So none of that crazy, uh, other stuff that you might get with other denominations, he's very down to earth. Very cool. I've been reading a lot of his stuff lately, just because I really, I had him on the podcast. My podcast beloved journal recently.
And I've really enjoyed following up and just kind of reading some of his stuff. And it's fun to do is to, after you have someone on a podcast, read their stuff and, and see what they're talking. Well, Rob, this was an absolute pleasure. I'm glad we, we were able to make this happen and, and thank you sincerely for all the work you're doing.
It is so appreciated. And I know my listeners are going to be following, uh, from afar and cheering you on. Well, thank you so much for having me. If you've been following the show for a while, you know, I'm a huge fan of Roadrunner, C B D. I used all of their products. Seriously. I run through a tub of their muscle gel every couple of weeks because I'm in my thirties and everything hurts.
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And use the code Cy at check out for 10% off. Trust me, you're gonna want to try this out. Check 'em out today. Find us on social media. Check the link in your show notes or search for Jay Schiffman and choose your struggle on any social media platform. All right, we've come to the end of another episode of the choose your struggle podcast.
Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with the Reverend Rob Lee. This may. This is, this is, this is one of my favorite episodes now of the two plus, you know, three seasons we're in season three. Um, definitely top five, uh, huge robbery fan. I am so thankful I got to, to chat with him and that he took the time because what an incredible guy.
All right. This week's card is coming from the press. Pause pack. Nope, that's wrong. It's coming from the nuggets of kind. Card back from blurt, um, because we all need kindness right now, whatever it is that you need right at this moment in time, get it, prioritize it, make room for it. Tell other people about it.
Your needs are more important. Heed them. Uh, that is a good card. And it's also your good egg because are good ag because just fuck all. All of it. Fuck all of it. Um, we are living that meme of the dog with the room on fire saying, this is fine. We are watching the collapse of everything we've held, dear. Uh, I, if you're not outraged at everything that's been happening over the last couple weeks.
Um, the last couple months, the last couple years, I, I don't know what to tell you. Uh, It's it's bad. It is bad right now. And I think I'm with a lot of you that I don't have a lot of hope that it's gonna get better anytime soon. And so my, uh, wish for you, you are good eight this week is to do whatever the fuck you need.
Um, cuz that's the only way we're all gonna survive this thing, that's it. Uh, Be vulnerable. Share your empathy, spread your love and choose your struggle.