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It’s time to take a trip to the county fair and watch our best friends kiss in Season 1 Episode 10: Double Date, also known as Modern Romance.
A Dawson's Creek Rewatch Podcast for those who missed the boat!
Freaks & Creeks: a Dawson's Creek Podcast dives into each episode of the hit '90s TV show Dawson's Creek with a fresh perspective. Join Cody, Stella, Mal and James as they set sail through turbulent waters determined to understand this iconic teen drama’s place in the modern television zeitgeist.
Cody: Welcome to Freaks and Creeks at Dolphins of the Creek podcast, the show where for millennials who missed the boat 25 years ago take the dive Splash for the first time. Join us as we experience the series with a fresh perspective week to week, and see if our adolescent experiences match up with Dawson and the gang. My name is Cody.
Stella: I'm Stella.
Mallory: I'm Mallory.
James: And I'm James. And, yeah, welcome to the show. Let's see, we got some capeside correspondence to get into.
Mallory: Yes.
Stella: So, uh, we got our first listener email. Very exciting. So, I believe last week or last episode, we had talked or wondered about what the Canadian connection to Dawson's Creek was. And thanks to our listener who emailed us and then on Instagram, we saw a comment that, um, said that Joshua Jackson playing PC is from Canada. So, uh, there you have it, folks.
Cody: Also, hometown hero.
Stella: Um, I just Googled Joshua Jackson and found out two things. One, he was in Mighty Ducks and.
Mallory: Wasn'T that we spent maybe 35 minutes.
Cody: Discussing the metexual narrative of him.
James: I get it.
Cody: Selfactualizing.
Stella: Okay, well, never mind. Okay, so there's that.
Cody: But then also wait, I just Googled.
James: Uh.
Cody: It guys, did you know Joshua Jackson is in Dawson's career?
Stella: Okay. Also, he has a child named Janie Jackson or Janie Jackson. But when I first saw it, I thought it said Janet Jackson, and I laughed at myself.
James: I like, Janie. That's all that's fun.
Stella: Back to you now.
Mallory: Oh, thank you for the weather. So, last, uh, episode, another reference to last episode, we talked about the random shift in Mrs. Tingle's name and we kind of theorized thought it might have been an accident.
James: I think you mean Mrs. Triangle.
Mallory: Well, uh, yeah. So, Joey called her Mrs. Tingle. In 1099, there was a movie written and directed by Kevin Williamson, his directorial debut and only movie that he has ever directed called Teaching Mrs. Tingle. Yes, um, according to Wikipedia, he wrote the script before his work on Scream and Dawson's Creek. Um, it's the story of a girl who's willing to do anything to come valedictorian, even if it means murdering the teacher that stands in her way.
James: She's a fucking kid.
Mallory: Guess who plays the student? Katie Holmes.
Cody: Oh, my God.
Mallory: Katie Holmes plays a student and Helen Mirren plays Mrs. Tingle.
James: I love this.
Mallory: Now, apparently, production for the movie began in April 1998. So episode nine of Dawson Creek, which is when Katie calls her Mrs. Tingle. Um, I mean, when Joey calls her mrs. Tingle was released in March of 1998.
James: Sorry, I just want to make sure I heard that right. He wrote this in 88, but then the production began in I don't know.
Mallory: When he wrote it, um, but he wrote it before his work on Screaming Dustin's Creek.
James: But production began in 98.
Mallory: Yeah, the production of the movie began in 98. Yeah, I wonder if she either made a mistake or yeah, maybe he didn't name the teacher until, uh, they started production. Like, there was a title, but it was like teaching. This is whatever. Who knows? Yes. Isn't that funny?
Cody: You know west craven, who did nightmare in home street and all the stuff? Um, he had a school bully when he was an adolescent named Kruge. Uh, and so that's why in every West Craven movie, like, the bad person Freddie Krueger or krugen Last House on the Left, it always keeps coming up. I wonder, Kevin Williamson, did he have a shitty teacher named Tingle triangle. Triangle. That he's been incorporating in all his work now? Oh, my God. We rewatch scream eventually. Got to keep our ears out.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: If there's a leery or a Witter or a Twinkle, that's cool. Thank you. Mao.
Cody: That's good stuff.
James: I like that stuff. We got to watch that for a bonus episode. Totally fine. Um, and see, I bet there's got to be at least, like one or two vampires somewhere in that movie.
Mallory: Yeah, for sure.
Cody: That there isn't.
James: Well, that's amazing. Cool. Well, let's get into it then. So this week, we are talking about episode ten. Uh, double date? This episode was released on April 28, 1998. And interestingly enough to me, though, Cody might have some news on that if you've been following along. That's actually over a month after episode nine was released. Episode nine was released March 17. This was released April 28. In those 49 days, we had some pretty significant, um, shifts in culture that I would like to talk about. Firstly, Titanic has been on top of the box office charts for what feels like 25 years. And during this break, it is actually Dethroned, believe it or not. Do you guys know what the movie was to Dethrone? Titanic? Mal does.
Cody: So I want to know what the iceberg was, baby.
James: It starts with an LP 98.
Cody: Leprechaun?
James: No, it was lost in space.
Cody: That is not good.
James: You're Will Robinson. I watched that movie. I watched that movie in theaters with my parents. So I actually remember going to see this probably wasn't in that week, but yeah, I got Gary Oldman, William Hurt, matt LeBlanc.
Cody: Yeah, I thought he was so cool in that movie. Um, he had that helmet that came. It looked like snake skin. It was like when it would go over his head.
James: Very reminiscent of a certain video game that I can't think of right now. Um, but yeah, I remember thinking, that was so fucking cool. So, yeah, that's the movie that ended Titanic's reign on the box office charts. Surprisingly enough, it only lasted one week, though. And the next movie, a week later, city of Angels takes the top of the box office chart. Yeah. Meg Ryan and Nic Cage. Nic Cage is an angel who's, like, guiding people into the afterlife. And then he meets Meg Ryan in a hospital and decides, I'm going to show her my true form.
Cody: Yeah, it's a remake of, um oh, my God. Michael or some shit was a bad movie. Wings. Uh, of desire. Uh, it's a very similar premise, but from the late eighty s an, uh, extremely good movie. And the most American thing you could possibly do is take a beautiful art house movie and turn it into a big, shitty, stupid movie with Nicholas Cage and make Ryan. Uh, but the best part about the movie is Iris, uh, by Goo Goo Dolls. Wasn't that like the main song that propelled that movie? I remember the music video. You see Nic cage falling?
James: Totally.
Cody: I don't want the world to see you.
James: Yes. I think you're all wow. So that sat on the box office charts for two weeks. That's how much America loved that movie.
Mallory: Versus 15 weeks. Yeah.
James: Lost in space, right? Yeah. Then release week. It's the big hit, which it's Mark Wahlberg film. And I think that about as much as you need to know. Um, it's Mark Wahlberg, Lou Diamond Phillips and Christina Applegate, about a socially anxious hitman who is an expert in his lucrative field, goes on a job and falls in love with his kidnapping victim, turning his world upside down.
Cody: What is this?
James: I looked this up. I have no recollection of this whatsoever. It's apparently a movie. Um, it's got 43% on Rotten Tomatoes. So it's not like, awful awful.
Cody: But what is it called again?
James: The big hit?
Mallory: Mark Wahlberg's. Character name is Melvin Smiley.
James: Yes, I'm Melvin Smiley halfable hit man.
Mallory: Melvin Smiley.
James: Say hello to your motherfobe.
Cody: Oh, my god. What a nightmare. Yeah, I've never heard of that movie. It was number one at the box office.
James: Number one of the box office for the week of, uh, May 2, 98. That crazy. Yeah.
Cody: No, thank you.
James: Little known movies. Um, but yeah. So that's our movie update. Pretty cool. Um, I wanted to really quickly, I know we have an episode to talk about, but I wanted to talk about the alternate title of this. As we talked about season one, they have all these alternate titles, right? This week's episode double, uh, date, alternate title, modern Romance. Does anybody know this movie? Has anybody watched this movie?
Mallory: Never watched it. But I looked it up.
James: Uh, I think this is a cool often these movies have obviously a very direct tie. This one is written, directed, and starring, um, Albert Brooks, who plays a successful film editor, um, with far too many issues that affect the relationship between him and his remarkably patient girlfriend. In the plot of this movie, Albert Brooks, who is playing a character named Robert Cole, I want to say, um, is constantly breaking up with and getting back together with his girlfriend, who is a banking executive. Um, because he's basically just like, uh, irrational and self centered, much like Dawson and Jen. So, um, we're seeing Dawson. Obviously, the relationship here is, uh, Dawson is a filmmaker. Um, and he is so tortured and so misunderstood and his girlfriend, Jen tries to give him the understanding but keeps coming back to him, foreshadowing, potentially, that she's on her way back. So that's my update for, uh, the week of release for Double Date.
Stella: I'm m so excited to get into it.
James: Well, I guess I got a few other things to talk about here. Uh written by Kevin Williamson and John Harmon Feldman. Directed by David Semel. Um, this episode has quite a bit of fun stuff. Has parental coercion. I love that Mr. Manmade, uh, co ops his son into spying on his mother and monitoring the phone lines for him. Gaslighting your friends. Love it. It's so cool. I'm so over you, Jen. I don't need you in my life so that you come back to me. I love it. It's cool. Um, there are new characters and locations. We got a biology class. We got a biology teacher, we got the carnival, we got the marshes. And then, um, this is a little spoiler for later, but we got a new supernatural entity that I can't wait to talk to you guys about.
Cody: I, too, have a supernatural entity that does not exist yet but I feel like will exist later on.
James: Oh, boy.
Cody: Based on some contextual clues that we receive through dialogue.
James: Oh, boy, I can't wait.
Mallory: Also, it is officially autumn in Capeside. Yes, we see some fall color.
Stella: I noticed that too.
Mallory: I mhm love excited about that.
James: Any initial thoughts on this episode before we dive into the scene by scene? I know there's a lot to talk about in this episode.
Stella: I don't know. I felt myself excited about the development between Pacey and Joey. When I watched it for the first time, I just felt giddy. So that was fun. There are lots of things I enjoyed about it. I think also maybe kind of similar to last week's episode, it felt a little slow in some ways. I feel like maybe just the first few episodes felt like there was so much happening. The last few episodes have felt a little bit slower, which isn't necessarily bad. Um, maybe we're just kind of like, ramping up for some more stuff to happen. Um, but overall, I liked it. I enjoy a lot of the music and there are lots of moments that made me laugh out loud, genuinely. But I thought we're just really funny. So, yeah, I enjoyed it.
James: Overall, it's funny. I actually thought this episode was paced well. Um, I think you were saying it was a little bit slow.
Stella: I think so, yeah.
James: I found the kind of like three plot lines we had. It's more like two and a half because Dawson, um, and Mary Beth anyway, I felt like kind of like this season of The Bachelorette um, gave me every time I start getting bored with one plot line, we'd switch over to the other plot line and be like, oh, right, that's happening. Cool.
Mallory: Yeah, I kind of agree. I liked the two the split stories. It was kind of like the John Dawson story and then the Joey and Pacey and then they come together at the end. I feel like the parents are kind of shoehorned in. Like, that was like, had to be.
James: We had to get an update.
Cody: Um, this, uh, is a stinker for me. Some of the stuff I like, I really, really do not like, I really do not understand the Mission Gale storyline. It's, as we said, very shoehorn in. But I also think that this episode has two things going for it. One is the use of metaphor, um, with other characters to mirror the relationships that we already have set in stone with Dawson, uh, Joey and Pacey specifically. And I think that it was very, uh, tedious with what they're doing with we've hit this note over and over and over and over again about, like, will Dawson shoes Joey or Jen. And it feels tedious. And I think the first couple of times that I watched it, I felt like I was in hell having to watch this over and over again because we're just treading water. Nothing's, uh, getting moved forward, especially when we get to a certain monologue near the end, it just feels like empty and nothing. And we've already seen this before, but I think there was very good use of a visual metaphor in a merrygor round that I think was purposeful in saying, like, this is, like, we are making this tedious. Like, this has to break eventually. So maybe if this episode's goal was to make me, uh, an agonized pain, they succeeded. Um, but, yeah, like everyone else said, I like the Pacey and Joey stuff to an extent. Um, and I fucking love Mary Beth.
Mallory: I think Mary Beth and I'm sad because I think this is the only episode she's in.
James: I looked at her credits to see if she comes back and I wanted.
Mallory: Her to come back and redeem herself.
James: She's so cool.
Mallory: Yeah, they just used her.
Cody: It was like, I was so excited because we're getting introduced to a new character that isn't just, um, there to terrorize. Like, she felt, uh, like an actual person. She was very nice and smart, but also had these flaws of doing the same stuff that Dawson is doing. So I was like, oh, my God, I can't wait to see how this character interacts with the world. Uh, guess she doesn't.
Mallory: We'll see.
James: Maybe she comes back. Okay, well, Cody, take us away.
Cody: Young adult man baby. Dawson proclaims his insecurities to Joey over Jen. Having moved on from their brief courtship, joey rightfully tells him that he needs to progress forward and prepare for all the inevitable roads of Jen's dating future, one of which is settling for a mere friendship. While Dawson painfully explains that being friends with someone you're in love with cannot be done. Joey says it's possible. Hinting at the obvious now very explicitly known truth that she adores our titular hero.
Mallory: This is the first time they are not watching anything on the screen. Uh, Joey's, Reading magazine can't tell what it is, but, um, yeah, nothing on the TV.
James: Yes, they're just really going at it.
Cody: But important to note it opens on a poster of Steven Spielberg's hook and I felt like that was very explicit in its meaning for this episode is because in that movie Peter Pan has grown up and he's forgotten what it means to be a child and forgot who he truly was and became, um, this, uh, person that he is not. Which is what Dawson feels like through the rest of this episode. He's constantly referring to himself as someone that he no longer feels himself. Yeah, so I thought like, maybe that's on point and they're trying to, I don't know, say something with that.
James: I like catching I didn't really notice that. I was just like, oh yeah, I remember that movie.
Cody: I'm also a movie person so I am grasping at straws constantly for any kind of theme.
James: Well, I noticed that you've had your movie card reinstated so congratulations.
Stella: Also, um, at, ah, 37 seconds in, I will screen cap this and post it on our social. Um, Joey and Dawson are on the bed and then the animal et and Jaws are just in the middle. It's a very silly image.
James: I can't wait to see all of the Steven Spielberg property toys that he gets to fill this out.
Stella: Also, I, um, don't know if anyone else noticed this. I thought many people were wearing red throughout this episode. I noticed it many times but in this first scene we see, um, is it Dawson? I think Dawson is wearing red. Um, so that's the first time. Love doesn't mean love.
Cody: Love, passion, hate, strong feelings, big emotions.
James: What if it's like the village?
Cody: Yes. Any M. Night shamala movie, red is always the bad color.
Mallory: Blood vampires.
Cody: A weezer album as man. Meet Mitch Leary, peruses the paper and enjoys his breakfast. He picks up the landline the caller asking for Gail. After Gail talks shop and hangs up, Mitch inquires on the caller revealing it was her adulterous fling. Bob. Mitch storms out in despair.
Stella: I thought this was weird because Mitch says that the voice sounds familiar in the way that he's talking to Gail. It sounds like he's being kind of snarky and that he knows who it is. This is just my feeling interesting, um, that he was like, HM, well then who was it? I thought he knew it was just like being kind of rude about it and then when he realizes it was him, he seems kind of surprised. Um, but the whole thing was just kind of confusing for me. I don't know.
Mallory: He named someone else that apparently ah, he knows that's a coworker of Gail that maybe calls every once in a while. So I was a little confused as well.
Cody: Uh, it's really confusing because I'm not going to remember this verbatim, but he was like, hey, is that Tyler? I want to talk to him. When he's had known it was Tyler, if you were just talking to him.
James: I wanted to talk to him, but I can't.
Mallory: But you just handed the phone off. Couldn't you have just talked to him when you answered?
Cody: And if it was Tyler, wouldn't Tyler have been like, what's going on?
James: Uh, I capped Mr. Man meets um, big puffy chest moment here. You guys want to hear it?
Stella: Yes.
James: This is the kind of energy I want to bring to my relationships.
Cody: Well, you tell Bob that the next time he calls you.
James: The next time he interrupts my breakfast.
Cody: To call my wife, that the only simple question he'll need an answer for is, do you have health insurance?
James: Fuck yeah.
Cody: M if they had not casted christian Bale as Patrick Bayman, an American psycho. I feel like Mitch would have been pretty good in that room too. I love his vocal delivery when he was puffing, um, like this.
James: Yeah, his gravelly, angry voice is scary and threatening without being scary and threatening in a way that Christian Bales could never be.
Stella: Absolutely. Also, the, um, guitar riff throughout this episode whenever there was like a moment of tension, was amazing.
James: So I actually capped this. This is from a much later scene, but because you mentioned it, I'm just going to get it out of the way now because this episode did have a strange mix of needle drops that I couldn't really place and that also felt very familiar. But like shadow versions of songs that I know. And then music that was written presumably for this show. That sounds exactly like Firefly music. Do you guys remember that show Firefly?
Cody: Are you going to talk about the jangly guitar?
James: Yes. You know I am. I just have to play this. I heard this and it made me feel like we were on firefly. On Serenity flying around space.
Mallory: Yeah, right? Yes.
James: They use that hit all the time in that motif throughout this episode. Um, and yeah, I loved it.
Cody: Uh, Jocelyn is an unforgivable pile of shit, but I did love Buffy, uh, the Vampire Slayer. Big fan of that. Firefly I cannot get into.
James: Really?
Cody: Yeah, it just went up for me. I love the cast. They're all really good.
James: It's one of my favorite shows. That hurts to hear. So I think we're done.
Cody: Okay. I was going to later say that. Jingle guitar. I feel like romantic comedies, you're either going to take place in the big city, uh, or it's like rural, like sweet homemade Alabama stuff. There's never an in between. Uh, I've never even thought of like, a suburban rom company. Anyways, if you're in a big city, the soundtrack is always like but whenever it's in rural it's like that brand. It makes me sick.
Mallory: That's funny.
James: Love it. Why would you hate that? That's great.
Mallory: Uh, before we move on, I wanted to call out Gail's outfit. She has the cutest, like, tiny little skirt suit for work.
Stella: She had a fun little necklace.
Cody: HM.
James: Styling.
Mallory: She was looking cute.
Stella: Definitely a milk.
Cody: Hi. There it is.
James: I was going to say it, but I'm glad you did. Also cancel Stella.
Cody: Yeah. Irrepresentable just like Josh whedon. Uh, it's been a really long time since I've actually physically held a newspaper, but I'm wondering, mitch turns, uh, this newspaper over at least 16 times while they're having a discussion. Do you remember if, uh, there's only like two or three words on each page? Is that why it's a key?
James: He gets a special edition for children. Yeah. Okay. Dog Bark.
Mallory: In the background there's a fish tank with one of the scuba divers from, um, the kelp. No fish inside the tank. Just scuba diver floating in an empty fish tank with water.
James: Okay.
Mallory: So silly.
James: That reminds me of video games from like, the early 2000s. All those old point and click video games, like the hidden Object, all the magic eye games that used to be on CD Rom. When you would finish a level and then go back to the level select screen, suddenly there'd be a little crystal ball on the shelf behind the level. It feels like that's what we're getting with Dawson's Creek now. Every couple of episodes they're like, hey, remember when Mitch destroyed, uh, the fucking restaurant? Well, now we've got a little scuba diver on a shelf behind it.
Cody: I love it.
James: It's cool. I hope that continuously by the end of season six, we've just got this wall that follows them full of all.
Cody: Referential things through the halls of Capeside High. Dawson and Jen awkwardly run into each other with little to say. Jen points out the awkwardness and asks the forbidden sad boy question, can they still be friends? Dawson is left speechless.
Stella: Okay, so before we get into this interaction, um, we see everyone outside, uh, playing Frisbee, throwing on football, and I just want to know, does anyone have this experience? Because I feel like in every high school movie or show, we see this as like people just hanging out outside having a blast. I've never experienced this.
Mallory: No?
Cody: A little bit.
Stella: Oh, okay.
Cody: Uh, so in my high school we had this kind of little courtyard area. So when it was nice outside, that's where we'd go to hang out on breaks and lunch and stuff. And like the stoners, which I was kind of like a part of that group a little bit. Um, everyone would like hacky sack that was like very big for a minute. So it was like before class, you got a sack. I don't know what these people think hacking and sacking would happen at break, at lunch, uh, before class, at 07:00 a.m. All the time. So that was like the closest I ever got to tossing a Frisbee with my friends on a hot golden Massachusetts day.
Mallory: It just feels more like college for me. That's what college but I, uh, never had that experience in high school.
Stella: Yeah, especially this is just the beginning of the day. Um, I love imagining that early in the morning before classes start. Everyone's just got to school early and they're like, has so much energy throwing a football.
James: Sorry Mom, I got to get to school to play Frisbee.
Cody: I wonder if it's coordinated or it's just like you show up and it's like, Steve has the Frisbee so we got to play. Is anyone calling Steve the night before being like, bro, you want to meet up with someone A-M-M?
James: Or is it just like somebody throws a Frisbee at one point in time outside of school and then some student catches, he's like, oh shit, I'm playing Frisbee now. And then suddenly there's like 50 people like, wow, playing Frisbee. And it just happens spontaneously. It's like a tumbleweed of a Frisbee that just blows through town one day.
Cody: Everyone who listens to the show right in. What were you doing before class? Were you frisbee? And what was the weather like when you were Frisbee?
Mallory: So in the hallway? Um, I had a couple of notes on the clothing. So Dawson is wearing the same plaid corduroy jacket as the prior episode. And I like this because this happens throughout the episode with different characters. They're wearing clothing that they were in previous episodes, which I feel like is not as common in shows in high school shows these days. There's a lot of, uh, you see like a brand new outfit every episode or every scene on someone, right? Exactly. So this feels like it's like the characters are very lived in. Like, you know, that's his favorite jacket maybe, or we're, uh, kind of getting a sense of their styles.
James: I thought Dawson really played it off well. Super Cash clearly not hurt at all. Like admirable.
Cody: Give it up to James Vanderbake for this performance episode because he is an alien from start to finish. He does not know how to act.
Mallory: So awkward.
Cody: He knows how to act he's acting very well as someone who does not know how to act.
James: Definitely.
Mallory: Mhm.
Stella: Yeah. When she says that she's going on a date with Cliff, he just is silent and still for a very long pause and it made me laugh.
Cody: Later. Now that everyone that's listening to the show to know what happens because they're.
James: Not watching hashtag cancel Stella.
Mallory: The main thing about this scene is she's the first to broach the subject of let's be friends. Jen it's like the quick awkward moment and she's bringing up just like Joey predicted. Yeah, mhm exactly right on schedule. Exactly.
Stella: How convenient.
James: Exactly.
Cody: Yeah.
James: And you'd think that since he just had this conversation with Joey, he would have been maybe just like slightly more prepared for this than he was, but no. Can't process.
Cody: Yeah, it's weird how befuddled he is biased. M. He knew this was coming. He had to.
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: In science class or I guess biology class, I don't know. Uh, self proclaimed dating expert Pacey gives Dawson advice that he should feign indifference so that Jen will crave his attention. After new to the cast sad sack, Mary Beth is introduced. The teacher singles out Pacey for bombing their midterm held after class. Pacey is informed that he needs extra credit to pass and he's assigned him a project to complete with, you guessed it, his fake archnemesis gal pal Joey.
James: Joe joe. I love that Mary Beth's entrance into the show. It's just like, hey, I heard a text back today.
Mallory: It's so random.
James: And both Paisy and Dawson is like, yeah, cool.
Stella: Anne mary Beth calls Dawson Dawes.
James: Yeah.
Mallory: Hey, Dos. Hey Dos.
James: Hey, Das.
Cody: I love her energy.
James: So cool.
Mallory: She's, um, really cool.
Stella: And Mary Beth is wearing red.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: Yes, she is.
Mallory: Mhm.
James: Cody, not to call, uh, you out, but this is marine biology class.
Mallory: Marine biology.
Stella: Cody.
James: Yeah. Cancel Cody. Let's get that out.
Mallory: It gets called out more specifically by Joey in a few scenes.
Cody: I, uh, love selling you did the ultimate celebrity that just got canceled move of being like, cancel me. We got to cancel this other guy.
James: He is really way worse.
Mallory: Uh, it is confusing. At the start I wasn't sure if it was just bio or science, but it gets called out very specifically later by Joey and yeah, it's marine biology. Also, does anyone want to be a marine biologist as a kid? Does anyone know about this phenomenon of the question, what do you want to be when you grow up? And a lot of kids answer, marine biologists. Right? Yeah, it's like a thing.
Cody: No.
Mallory: You've never heard of this?
Stella: No, I think I have.
Mallory: There's like, stuff on Reddit and Google Articles about this. It's like a thing that's just kind.
James: Of like because I grew up in Hawaii, so I just thought it was maybe an artifact of that. No, but I've talked to other people who are like, yes, when I was kid, I really want to be a marine biologist. I think it just makes you sound smart.
Mallory: Yeah. What I gathered from a little bit of reading was like, the appeal of it lies in a combined interest of animals and then a fascination with the ocean. We don't know a lot about it and also like, uh, things that kids are exposed to, like stories or movies that have revealed the ocean as a mystery. And it's a cool thing. Did anyone read the Magic School? Bush frizzle takes the kids down into the ocean.
James: Yeah, I really wanted to. Know what happens if you put dog in water?
Mallory: Also water. It's not just a BioClass. It's a water bile.
James: Yeah, water.
Mallory: Right.
Cody: Creeks are made of water.
James: Uh, what happens if you put dog in creek?
Cody: I just associate marine biology with that extremely good Seinfeld episode where George Cassandra, uh, lies about being a marine biology. And at the end of that episode where there's what is it? Like a breached whale.
James: So good.
Mallory: And also, Pacey's wearing that same fleece hoodie that he wore in last episode. So another must be his favorite sweatshirt.
Cody: That's cool. Yeah. I like you brought up like, everyone has their own wardrobe. It's like you're really getting a sense of these characters. I, uh, have a question. This teacher is an asshole, I felt like, for pointing out Pacey being the class dunce. Have you ever experienced that before? Has a teacher ever called you out like that?
Mallory: And he being the only one?
James: Yeah.
Mallory: No. That's so awkward.
James: Embarrassing.
Cody: Well, what happened? Yeah, what happened?
James: Let's talk about it. We can talk about this, too, because my band teacher, he died. So fuck.
Stella: Fuck him.
Cody: Rest and piss.
James: Yeah, rest and piss, fuck head. But you deserve that. Um, so what happened is ah, anyway, let me start from the beginning. It was a band. Um, I was playing drums at this point in time. But I had just transitioned over from playing woodwinds to join drums. Because in high school drums, man, they're cool. Woodwinds not cool. Also, I want to be in Marching Band because that movie, uh drum line. Nick Cannon. Um, so I really want to be like that. So anyway, I don't know how the fuck to read drum sheet music, though. That's the big part in band class, is like, you don't just play whatever you want. That's what I kind of thought. You have to do the right stuff. So I couldn't really do the right stuff because I didn't know what the right stuff was. And my band teacher got really angry at me and stopped. Uh, me and another person, neither of us knew drum, how to read the music. We just thought we could feel it. Um, anyway, long story short, he stops the middle of this, uh, rehearsal and starts yelling at us about how we don't know how to read the music and how we're playing everything. Well, actually, he starts by saying we're playing everything wrong. Do you not know how to fucking read? And then it was like, this is yes, we don't know how to read. And it got pretty intense. The band teacher is, like, screaming at us and, uh, he ends up throwing a pair of drumsticks.
Stella: Oh, my God.
James: Across the clash. Um rest in pissfuck Head. Yeah, it is.
Cody: Whiplash. That's JK. Simmons.
James: That's crazy to tell you. It's all based on my life.
Cody: And you look exactly like Miles Sellers.
James: I've heard that before. So yeah, it's happened before. Not like this though. This was in a way worse because wouldn't you have known that the only person to have gotten enough was Pacey? So did you need to do that very well?
Mallory: You could have just told him at the end of class.
Stella: Yes, m. I didn't really get that vibe. Like, I do get that he could have just done that after class but I didn't think he was being an asshole.
James: I think he goes on to redeem himself by just offering this.
Mallory: True.
James: So maybe he's not a ding dong, but he does go by Dr. Rand.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: I remember in high school we had one person who was a doctor.
Mallory: I was going to ask if anyone.
James: You had one and it felt very pretentious. No, I'm not Mr. I'm Doctor and I was in high school. In high school, yeah.
Mallory: Wow. Yeah, I never had that experience having a doctor teacher.
James: What can I say?
Cody: Also, Joey will later say this, but what makes Pacey the dating expert? Like, why would Dawson listen to anything that Pacey has to say and take it seriously?
James: Well, he did have sex with his teacher.
Cody: That's true.
Mallory: We must know something.
Cody: It seems like it was the accident mog.
Stella: Yeah. So Pacey and Joey get paired together. I don't know. They both seem it's so weird, like seeing their dynamic because sometimes it's like they're cordial and then when they see that they're paired together just like, oh.
Mallory: Are you kidding me?
Stella: They're so upset about it. You guys are like friends. It doesn't seem like it would be that bad.
Cody: It was like two episodes ago where they went to the Cliff beach house party where he was super friendly and invited her out and stuff.
James: Yeah, but I think what's important to remember with that episode is she gets drunk and then she thinks Dawson is the person to save her, not Pacey. So I think in her memory, she probably doesn't remember any of the nice stuff Pacey did that day.
Stella: Yeah, but I remember there was an episode where they had a nice moment where they were on the bench together when those rumors were coming around.
Mallory: Yeah, they can relate. There are certain things they relate on together and it's been sprinkled throughout the last several episodes, I think.
James: Yeah, it's just right in convenience because they know that this is the episode where we're going to make them come together. So we've got to really drive home if they don't get along when it's like actually they do. We've seen it multiple times. But I did think that moment was kind of funny. You got a little chuckle from me when it's revealed who his lab partner is and it made me go like, wait, is Joey a bad student too? Suddenly I was like a little bit. It got me intrigued, which I didn't expect to see that coming.
Cody: Yeah, that was a really good hook because I just assumed that she was a good student.
James: Um, yeah, getting later.
Cody: Yeah. No spoiler. Stella. Yeah, we'll get there. You're still canceled. We might on cancel you later.
James: Yeah.
Cody: Later in the halls. Dawson not at all like Data from Star Trek The Next Generation approaches Jen and confirms that he wants to be friends and inquires let us have a friendly conversation. This leads to Jen revealing she has a date that weekend with Cliff to the carnival.
Stella: Okay. And then, um, yeah, where Dawson has an awkward interaction but one of my favorite needle drops of, um, the episode.
Cody: Maybe come Back and Hear Me she Louie.
Stella: Yes. This song, bend and break.
James: Don'T see us.
Mallory: Stella, did you ever have one of those stretchy long black skirts that Jen is wearing in the scene? Did you see? Notice what? You don't remember? Oh, okay. I remember them being so popular, very specific. It was like a stretchy material long and just black.
Stella: M so okay, Cody, what about you?
Cody: So, like, Dawson proposes the double date and she agrees. Uh, the thing that boggles my mind is how quick he was to just use this as a grand plan without any foresight. Like nothing, nothing so bonkers.
James: It really to me shows that Dawson is not a nice guy. It was god, his first instinct is to be like, lie, just heat quit into my favor. Um, sorry. Yes, he's being kind of like egged on by Pacey in a sense back in marine biology class. But even Pacey is like, well, this is an advanced maneuver when he later finds out. So Dawson's really, uh, improvising quite a bit here.
Mallory: It was almost creepy the way that he had this kind of fake that he was trying to keep his cool. He had this almost creepy smile this entire time that Jen's talking to him about. You know.
Cody: I think we've talked about it before on the show but. Uh. Anytime you read anything about like. Ted Bundy or serial killers that got away with it for far too long.
James: Uh.
Cody: And then they get interviewed like. I guess in like. Minehunter or whatever that show was. That was a super good show. I hope it comes back. But they always talk about how these people are sociopaths and they do not connect to people on an emotional level and they have to learn how to act like people. This performance, Dawson being like, hey, so let's have a friendly conversation.
James: We should do this.
Cody: Oh, you have a date. Haha, normal. I'm with you too.
James: Sounds good.
Cody: Like he will murder her. That's what this is. Flagging later on, huh?
James: Yeah, I feel like I kept this. I want to play it because this is Dawson after he hears that Jen has a date. Whatever it is, I think I can take it.
Stella: Okay, well then, in the name of friendship, however misguided, I have a date.
Mallory: With Cliff this weekend.
Stella: We're, uh, going to the carnival inside of processing.
James: Is that what you didn't want to tell me? Because quite frankly, I'm relieved. I mean, this is a video podcast. You just have to look at the video of Dawson's Creek while you're listening to it. But the moment when Dawson is processing that Jen is going on a date with Cliff is, to Cody's point, the moment that Dawson becomes a serial killer because he's just like, calculating, if I.
Cody: Go to the double date, maybe I.
James: Can kill Cliff and then Jen will be mine.
Mallory: Can you be killer in the next episode? Oh my God.
James: I think this is what sets Dawson on a path to take up the mantle after grants'inevitable death to become the ultimate vampire hunter. My heart is broken. I now need to go stake every vampire's heart she bends.
Stella: Also, I feel like throughout this whole episode, jen just looks uncomfortable.
Mallory: Oh yeah.
Cody: This is a very weird gen episode.
Mallory: Yes.
Cody: I cannot read anything. If you told me right now that Michelle Williams improvised this entire performance, I would believe you because it does not make any sense.
Mallory: Maybe she was given the direction to be confused.
James: Yeah. And in that way this episode feels relatable because especially in high school, your emotions are so fucking confusing, you don't really understand what's happening. And if you've got somebody manipulating you like Dawson is able to, I can see how she would be so wishy washy with her emotions in this episode.
Cody: A, uh, question for the crowd, but mainly Malin Stella here. Has anyone ever had a crush on you that was as weird as Dawson? Yeah, he had a boy specific problem.
Stella: Yeah, I definitely had some creepy, weird things. I don't know exactly like dolphin, but yeah, someone very persistent and, um, it was uncomfortable at times.
Mallory: I had another question for the group. Has anyone ever been on a double date for a first date? Because basically what he's proposing to do?
Stella: Yes, I have.
Mallory: Ah, it's their first date. Okay, let's hear it.
Stella: It was a blind date. Um, okay, this is really sad, actually. I think this is freshman year prom. My high school is really small so we could go to prom every year.
Mallory: Mhm.
Stella: And I had a really big crush on this guy, wondering if I should say his name or not.
James: Yeah, okay.
Stella: I mean, he probably knows who he is because if I told the story but anyways, so, um, he had asked me if I had plans and so I thought he was going to ask me, but really he was going with someone else and then he set me up with his friend and it was a blind date. So the four of us went out to dinner and then went to prom and me and this guy did not click at all and it was just like so awkward. And we did not interact at the prom at all and it was really awful. I hated it.
James: Cool as hell. Well, I guess on that note, we're going to go have a double date, um, with all new people. With all new people. So it's going to be a quadruple blind date, first date. So it'll be really cool.
Mallory: But we don't know who we're bringing on the date. Yeah, but it's going to happen just like Dawson.
James: We'll let you know on the other side until bye. Hey everybody, it's James here just thanking you for listening. We don't have any sponsors, we don't have any paid promotions or anything like that so we're thanking you. But I'm going to actually ask one more thing of you while I'm at it. Could you go ahead and subscribe to this show? Do it right now while you're listening. It's not going to take you any time at all and that way you'll get every episode in the future. And while you're at it, go ahead and give us a review as well. Um, it'll really help us grow. The algorithm will love it, people will see it. Maybe they'll think, hey, I think this sounds like something I'm going to like and that's really what we need as a new show. So help us grow. Give us a rating, subscribe and keep on listening. Thank you so much and enjoy the rest of the episode.
Cody: We're back. Wow, that was a crazy quadruple person date. I don't think we should ever see those people ever again.
James: No.
Cody: Well, in the cafeteria, Dawson spills the beans on the carnival double date situation to Pacey who flips through his mental dating expertise guidebook proclaiming it's an advanced maneuver, but could work at getting Jen back as they both wonder who Dawson can take the light bulb above Pacey's head. Illuminates leading Dawson to ask previously introduced sad vibes girl Mary Beth to the carnival. She rightfully says it's far too early for Dawson to be dating but he assures her that he's ready.
James: Boy, does he. And it's a very convincing performance, too. Listen to this. I'm ready, completely ready to not be more ready. Convince me.
Cody: Yeah, I just wonder we'll get to it later. But with Mary Beth's reveal as to her actual intentions with the carnival, was she just looking for this kind of in?
Mallory: She didn't know yet that Cliff was going to be there. Uh, approaching mary Beth. Right. Did anyone look at what she was reading?
James: No.
Mallory: For Dawson. Okay.
Cody: I just don't know what it was.
Mallory: So it reveals a little bit about her, I think. Um, she's reading a book called Fear of Flying by an author, Erica Jong, or young, I don't know. Um, my pronouncing wrong.
Cody: Uh.
Mallory: So, uh, she kind of exploded into popularity in the 70. Um, her chronicle of the soul searching, sensuality seeking adventures of an intellectual young female poet. The poet was an author of erotic poetry in this book. Um, and this book became controversial for its portrayal of female sexuality and figured in the development of second wave feminism in the seventies and eighties.
Cody: Very interesting.
Mallory: I feel like this is probably not a book that was part of a class in high school. You can tell she's enjoying it with her sandwich. She's holding her sandwich and reading this book.
Cody: She's an intellectual. Yeah.
Mallory: That'S cool.
Cody: More importantly, did anyone notice the post?
Mallory: Yeah, there are like four.
Cody: There's a bunch of them. I saw Antonio bandaras. I saw Shaq. I saw Chrissy Yamaguchi. Was that allen thick from growing pains.
Mallory: I saw an older white I wonder.
Cody: It was either Alan Thick or Colonel Sanders.
James: Yeah, that's the only thing that I really wanted to call out was those Read posters. We should screenshot those.
Mallory: Yeah, we'll screenshot those.
James: Ah, so cool. I really saw that shack one. I remember seeing that one of the kids.
Cody: Uh, again, I love Mary Beth and there's like a darkness to that character and I want to know fuck. I just can't believe that she's only in this episode.
Mallory: I know.
Stella: I'm so pissed.
Mallory: Because she just got like I feel like they used her in this episode.
Cody: There's an instantaneous questioning of Dawson that you would not see with another character of his intentions. Everyone always goes along with whatever Dawson wants to do, but she was just immediately like, well, you're not over Jen, so that doesn't make any sense.
Mallory: Yes, she just called it right out. Like, she's friendly, but she's like, you're not ready.
Cody: Yeah.
James: She's challenging him in a way that the only other person who has is Jen. But she's doing it so much more successfully, I feel like, because Dawson right. Dawson is just kind of whenever Jen speaks, he's like, yeah, that's pretty. But Mary Beth, he's like, he needs something from her. So he has to kind of like, bend to her whim a little bit and try to actually win her over.
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: If this truly is the last episode of Mary Beth, I really hope they do pull in a new character that will fill these kind of shoes because the show desperately needs someone to see through all this facade bullshit.
James: Barry Meth. You know, it's got to be a white guy, so it's got to be Barry Meth.
Mallory: Hey, she had a cute, PLA maroon jumper also. She was looking cute.
James: I like this outfit a lot better than the one she's wearing at the car.
Cody: I love that. I thought it was cool. In the marine biology classroom, Joey, uh, continues to do the extra credit project entirely by herself, while Paisley mocks both her and the project. It isn't until Joey mentions the sexual nature of the snails that Paisley finally unravels his tongue. His eyes eject out of the school and he proclaims a figurative awka, finally making him engaged. When summer school is brought up, the weight of this project is finally felt for our hero, sex obsessed dunts. We have come so far with Pacey that this seems like one step forward. 100 back.
Mallory: Totally.
James: Yeah.
Cody: I really thought we were over this stuff.
Mallory: Yeah.
Stella: I mean, definitely Pacey makes some questionable moves in this episode. But overall, I don't know. Just kind of felt like teenage boy stuff to me.
Mallory: Yeah, but that's annoying. Like, why? Uh, I just feel like he already took the step forward with how he was being with, uh, Joey and making sure she was safe at the party and all that. And then now he's going back to this, quote, teenage boy.
Cody: We know that because of previous instances of him opening up and being vulnerable, we know that this is his facade. This is his clownish exterior that he has to have because he is a sad, vulnerable boy. But, uh, doing it in a different way. And also the clownish exterior isn't just the horny boy stuff, um, as the facade. Because later on we see him. He is actually a very horny boy. And it's disgusting.
James: Oh, yeah.
Cody: So I just don't like it. I don't like it at all.
James: Yeah. It felt like he was really taking it to the extreme. In this episode and this scene specifically, we don't get much of an explanation as to why he is such an underachiever, which I would like. I mean, maybe we're setting that up. Uh, maybe in the next episode, maybe in the next three episodes, we'll finally get some payoff here. But we get this kind of set up from back in the initial proposition of this project, like, you're an underachiever, you're a smart guy, but why aren't you trying harder? Um, and then every time we see him actually interacting with somebody, he's just like boner joke. Yeah, I found it tired from the very beginning.
Cody: He is either the most richly nuanced character of this show where everything is subtext and we have to take a lot with every grain that they give us. Or like we've said a million times, they don't know what to do with his character. And he's just kind of, uh, an algorithm of a bunch of ideas rather than something interesting. But hearing those things from the teacher being like, well, you're obviously smart, you're fucking up. It almost seems purposeful. You just don't care, you're depressed.
James: Blah, blah, blah.
Cody: Flesh it out a bit. Like, I like that we're getting these little things, but give me something other.
James: Than, yeah, it would have been nice to have him open up a little bit more as a result of this. Become vulnerable instead of I mean, he does grow as a character, but he doesn't open up.
Mallory: Yes, I felt like he was almost going to do that later. We'll talk about later at Joey's house. But then it's back to the Cody.
Cody: Says, I really do like when they do have that sequence of chose later on, I'm cancelled for talking about it. But uh, that little bit of what he does say speaks volume. And it's like this plus the cop family, plus all this other stuff. I'm like, I get pacey. Uh, I just wish his exterior wasn't, um, the cartoon horny.
Stella: Yeah, that's what I was going to kind of say and we can talk about it later. It's just like, overall, I feel like we see more, like genuine goodness and character in the way that he's a friend at points versus Dawson who's being so manipulative and just a straight up asshole in this episode. But we can get more into that later.
James: I agree.
Cody: As Dawson works on a model of a bunch of teeth in his bedroom, mitch daddy slides through the door to coolly interrogate his son over that day's missed calls. When Dawson begins to swell with frustration, mr. Manmeat makes it perfectly clear who he's talking about. The dreaded, bob. When Dawson confirms no Bob calls, mitch plays it off like it's no big deal whatsoever and snakes back to the hallways.
James: I hated this.
Cody: Yeah, it sucks. Um, this scene is a deleted scene. Why? Every Mitch and Gail scene. This episode is a deleted scene.
James: So I did get the dialogue between Mr. Manmade and Manmade Jr. Let's take a listen.
Cody: Forgive me, Dawson, maybe I'm not being clear.
James: I didn't ask if anyone had called for me personally.
Cody: I asked if anyone had called that I should know about.
James: So Icky do not like that. Uh, we've had this conversation before. I'm a child of divorce. I'm m so thankful that neither one of my parents dragged me into the middle of whatever was going on. And this show has many of these moments where I am sitting there like, is this cute or is this toxic? Because the show has a way of kind of glamorizing this interaction while also being like, it's ugly, it's not good. But like with the, um, underage the, uh, Mary Kay laterno analog stuff, it's like, why are we including this? Why is this the choice?
Mallory: I wonder if part of it is to explain Dawson not feeling himself, like at home. His parents aren't really paying attention to him. His dad could have been like, hey, Dawson, what are you working on? What's that like? Maybe part of him being an asshole is him seeing his dad being an asshole.
Cody: It does speak volumes to the we don't have to get that deep with it, but generational trauma of his parents are so self involved, which is why he's so self involved and mhm, he doesn't really know, like, another way to actually interact with other people because his parents clearly don't have an emotional connection with him. It's very basic. Like kind of like a couple of episodes ago where Mitch and Gail were arguing in the kitchen once again and as soon as Dawson popped his little head out of the door, m Mitch, they didn't even know how to make small talk with him. He's like school. Huh? Huh? You do that.
James: Hey there, Tyke.
Cody: Not that I think that this show is that smart. I don't think the show is trying to say anything with it, but, uh, it definitely makes Dawson as a character. Makes more sense.
James: Yeah, agreed.
Cody: The next day, Joey and Pacey arrive in the marine biology classroom to discover that all of their snails are dead. Joey wants to outright quit until Pacey reveals that he took the liberty of adding a snail from one tank to another, all for the purpose of creating a snail orgy. Joey reveals that the snail he added was a carnivore and instead of fucking, they fell away to the other appetites of the flesh. Pacify says he'll do whatever it needs to be done to fix the situation.
James: Now, I know that this is like bad boy behavior, as I like to say. Um, Pacey's pretty much whole, um, stick here. But I did laugh at this interaction between Pacey, uh, and Joey. I want us to listen.
Mallory: Holding onto snails are single sex. They don't need another organism to reproduce.
Cody: Right?
James: And I would remember that if I actually listen when you talk to me.
Mallory: He had some really good, funny comebacks this episode.
Cody: As much of a shooting.
James: He'S, uh, reverting, uh, to the, uh, knuckle dragging fuck machine. Um, he does have some good dialogue. He's a funny guy.
Stella: And it's like the two of them, they're fun to watch. Their bickering is really fun.
James: Great chemistry.
Mallory: I think this is the first time we've seen this extensive of scenes with them together. This is like the most we've seen of Joy and Pacey this episode together by themselves. And yeah, as you said, it's entertaining.
Cody: I think that the relationship that we're seeing developed between them is a product of the writer's room realizing, like, oh, these are two. Clearly we're having the most fun writing these characters. We have to put them together because they could just sound like a noir movie forever. It had fun. Two, um, things that are extremely important to, um, me for this episode. Okay, so we have one tank with two snails and Pacey goes and adds another snail to the mix and that ends up it spells disaster. Do these two snails represent Joey and Dawson? And he is the carnivore snail and by adding him to the mix, it fucked everything up. Now, originally, I would have thought that this would have been something like, oh, we add a gen to the mix and this is like a Joey gen thing. But this episode, we're so much more in the Joey, like the Trifecta there of the Joey Basy Dawson stuff. So I thought that was a very interesting allegory.
Stella: I love that.
Cody: But, uh, more importantly, um, let's get into the dark depths of the ghostly spooky monster cryptoid, uh, kind of story.
James: Okay?
Cody: Ah, um, what do we know about Pacey? That boy loves sex. Yes, he would have sex with anything. And what does he refer to as a snail? He says it's a very pretty snail. Do we think that Pacey is going to make love to a snail to create a new breed of human snail creature equipped for this fake Massachusetts town? It could be like their mothman or.
Mallory: The creature of the black lagoon.
Stella: Creature of the creek.
Mallory: Of the um, creek. Does anyone think you think he was maybe high when he decided to do this? Weird, like dropping another snail into this, don't you think in the classroom there's probably a sign that says, like carnivorous.
Stella: Yeah, right.
Mallory: And he's like, what was he thinking?
Cody: Yeah, this kind of goes along with, uh, like what you're saying James, is like, the teacher says, you're a bright kid, Pacey, uh, you could do better. But then, yeah, he just feeds one snail to a bunch of other snails or snails to snail. But yeah, it's like there's no rhyme or he's not trying to do anything interesting with it. He's just fucking up on for no reason.
James: This isn't the behavior of an underachiever who pays attention and just doesn't care about tests or homework. This is the behavior of somebody who doesn't give a fuck at all and doesn't know anything. That's not an underachiever. That's just somebody who doesn't care. There's a difference there.
Cody: This is the joker at the end of the dark night when he lights all the money on fire. It's not about the money.
Mallory: I love the opening shot of this, by the way. Back to the beginning shot of the scene. The opening shot with the bones. I think it was a shark mouth framing Joey and Pacey.
James: Yeah, that's cool.
Mallory: Very Jaws. Yeah.
Cody: What would a snail human hybrid what would that be called? A snuman?
Mallory: A hail?
James: Um, Newman.
Mallory: Newman Snailman.
Cody: Like a mailman. Uh, it's so easy for us. We don't have to do any photoshop, baby. We can use the snail instagram, uh, filter on Patreon and we'll know exactly what that child will look like.
James: Even better, we could do it on baby Alexander. That way it's got that witter sorry, no, not witter. Potter DNA. Because maybe pacey joey. Joey Snail. Joey Snail.
Cody: Joey Snail is my favorite gangster name.
James: Hey, Joey Snail. Over here. That's my SoundCloud mumble rap.
Cody: He's so slow. Uh, later that day, Joey gives Dawson some serious flak for the Mary Beth Carnival situation. And Dawson admits that it's a pretty fucked up thing to do, but he's still going to go through with it. Joey recognizes that this isn't a typical Dawson move and that he shouldn't make a habit of being a jerk since he's one of the quote unquote good ones. Dawson admits that he kind of wishes he would be taking her to the carnival instead. And she wishes that he would have done that. Just when we think the sparks are about to fly, pacey rolls up in. A pickup honking like a big dumb goose for Joey to join him for finding new snails for their project.
James: We need to go find snails.
Mallory: Joey's truck. That was Bessie's truck.
Cody: Uh, I was wondering, why is he right?
Stella: But then he later refers to it as the winner truck.
Mallory: That was the truck they used interesting.
Stella: Crops where everyone just has the same car.
James: There's only one car in cape bumper ah stickers.
Stella: I'm wondering if you catch James. This is one of the lines, uh, of dialogue that made me laugh really hard was when Joey said, wait a second, you're taking romantic advice from a guy who spent trying to get.
Cody: Lunch?
James: I didn't get that. I wish I did because that is pretty fucking funny.
Stella: You may laugh really hard.
James: I got this instead.
Cody: Come on, Joey, let's get a move on.
Mallory: I see my deviant lab partner has arrived.
Cody: I like that mhm.
Mallory: When, um, Joey tells Dawson that Pace is on his way to come pick her up. I detected a bit of jealousy and longing in Dawson's reaction to that. Like, you're going to go hang out with Pacey?
James: Yeah, maybe that's the, uh, Mr. Manmeat m rubbing off on him because that's what I was mhm not feeling like himself.
Mallory: Yeah, exactly.
James: Is that like jealousy coming into play?
Mallory: Definitely, yes.
Cody: The soft bee bob coming into their relationship.
Stella: Right.
Cody: If you were a carnivore snail, you would roll up, honking a horn, get in the car.
Stella: Yeah, I don't know, it just sucks. It's such a jerky move that Dawson is just like he's so conscious of it. Mhm being like, I'm being an asshole, but I'm going to do it anyways.
James: I know.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: So I felt like this is a moment, this scene where Dawson is like, uh, well, to be honest, I wish I was bringing you instead. I liked this. It felt like good writing to me because I could see what he meant. Like, oh man, I wish I was bringing a friend instead, instead of like putting some random person through this. This is like so shitty. I would much rather be bringing you, but I can't be bringing you because Jen would see right through it. But what Joey hears is like, I would much rather you be on a date with you. And that's just that this show does this so well. This like Dawson saying the right things, but he's saying all of the wrong things at the same time.
Cody: Yeah. I just wish I knew with a version of Joey that wasn't in love with Dawson what her reaction would have been to the situation because she was very quick to be like, well, you're one of the good ones, so this isn't like a normal move that you would do. I feel like a real friend who didn't have a romantic connection would just be like, dude, you're being a fucking asshole and you should not do this. This is bad. Yeah.
James: Bad news.
Mallory: Yes.
Cody: Mary Beth meets up with an already forlorn looking Dawson at the carnival opening with a compliment that hypothetically mirrors. When Jen and Cliff show up, mary Beth immediately knows what's going on and takes toss an aside when she says that he still hung up on Jen. He course corrects to fill her in on what he calls the absolute truth only for the audience to be cut off as he explains his intentions to marry Beth.
James: I love that. I love an expository cut. It's one of my favorite things when it's like we don't need to hear the story, we just need to see and you know what, this is what it's about. And then cut to I love that kind of shit. It's one of my favorite things about like Coen Brothers movies is like they always cut out that stuff when you just get the set up and the payoff. So I like that moment.
Mallory: I thought it was interesting. I didn't like this for her. Like, I didn't like it in this situation.
James: No, not at all.
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: Uh, that was so breaks my heart. I love Mary Beth herd is okay, you don't have to compliment me too about the same thing.
Mallory: Oh right. And her outfit. Let's talk about that for a second.
James: She looks like either a lawyer or my grandmother. Totally like that weird outfit.
Mallory: The color combo, purple button up, uh, with that collar, that big, very more collar. Maroon jacket with large shoulder pants. And then her hair clipped up on both sides. It was interesting.
Cody: I'm sorry. My ears are burning red ever since I heard Grandma lawyer. That should be a TV show.
James: All right.
Cody: I like it. Oh, wait, that's what a judge would say. I don't know anything about the law.
James: Objection. Um, Mary Beth rules. Here's all of the evidence you would ever need. It's not what you think.
Mallory: Before you tell me what I think.
Stella: Let me tell you. I think it's pretty obvious that you're still hung up on her.
Mallory: Love that fuck.
Cody: Yeah, she rules.
James: We need that voice in every episode of the show.
Cody: Mhm.
Stella: And that guitar riff in the background.
Cody: Yeah, it's either acoustic noodling or, uh, the worst guitar riff I've ever heard.
James: Well, on that note, um, I'm going to go show everybody some pictures of that time when I was a priest.
Cody: During our next commercial break, y'all marry full of grace. Bye bye.
Stella: Hey, Freaks, stella here jumping in on the commercial break to remind you to find us online. We're on social media at, uh, Freaks and Creeks Pod where we post all sorts of great content. Come join the conversation. We'd love to have you. We also have a website, Freaksandcreekks.com. It has a super sleek web player so you can listen from anywhere or share episodes directly with your friends or family. Thanks for listening and enjoy the rest of the show.
Cody: We're back on the titular creek, pacey rose Joey on a tiny little boat as they adventure to the sea to find some horny snails. They playfully give each other some shit for wasting their weekend. But when Pacey asks Joey about why she needs extra credit, she shuts down the convo.
Stella: I kind of wonder why she's embarrassed.
Cody: About her living situation.
Stella: Mhm, I don't know.
Mallory: I don't know. She doesn't want to be seen as like, the perfect student because she has good grades and maybe she just doesn't want that combo.
James: Uh, I think you're on the right track for me. She alludes to it later, but it's like nobody wants to be the person who volunteers for extra credit assignments that everybody else is hating and that's what she's doing. She's volunteering for extra credit to get into college. So I think she's embarrassed of that that she doesn't actually have a reason for doing this. The reason that she's doing this is because she doesn't have a life and she doesn't have a social life and all those things that she feels self conscious of.
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: It is good that there's a million reasons why the Joey Pace thing makes sense. But we have two characters that are extremely insecure and very terrified of being vulnerable. So putting them in this situation is very smart. Good job on the writers.
James: Pacey is continually willing to break down the walls, but at the same time he's not because what he's offering is something he doesn't care about his test score. He doesn't care that he's failing school, clearly, but he's not really being vulnerable.
Mallory: Yeah, it's interesting. It seems like Joey almost cares more about for his grade than he does. There are a few moments where she's like, I know it's for me, but it's also for you. Like you can tell that's kind of what she's thinking.
James: Why don't you care more?
Mallory: Why don't you care?
Cody: Yeah, just thinking out loud here. Pacey, uh, does not find her attractive until she changes in front of him problematic. But before that, I feel like it would make more sense for his character to just not show up or not give a shit about this because they've been bickering and all this stuff. So why did he even come to pick up Joey in the first place? You think he would have slept in, not cared. That doesn't really have a through line for me. Yeah, other than him being a quote unquote good friend. But in this episode they've kind of forgotten about that.
Mallory: Yeah, right.
James: Inconvenience.
Cody: Mhm also another thing, I love that it really feels like they shot like, on an actual boat for these people. And the ah, angles are so funny. He's like low CUBRIC angles.
Mallory: We get to see Katie Holmes like, under her nose. It doesn't look like her. It's funny.
James: Yes.
Cody: It looks like Jack, uh, Nicholson in The Shining banging on the door. So Mary Beth and Dawson stroll the carnival grounds and she repeats to Dawson what he had shared with her previously. A uh, lie that they're actually on a double date to support Jen as she starts dating again. Mary Beth thinks this is sweet of Dawson and when she asks what they should do next he eyeballs Jen and Cliff proclaiming that he has an idea.
Mallory: I hated this because uh, I hated that they used Mary Beth to recap the lie that Dawson told her. Why not have Dawson be the asshole here and us hear him lie to her like it makes her look gullible instead of making him look like an asshole.
Cody: It sucks and it's so annoying because earlier we were praising the show for not having just annoying exposition but now they double down on the exposition and have it beat Mary Beth. That has to tell the audience what's going on. Which blows.
James: I ah, think we're supposed to just see that Dawson has a way with words and he's so charming that he can get people to believe him just by talking but it doesn't have that effect. It makes Mary Beth look stupid. Like you're saying male and it's really shitty because she's not stupid.
Mallory: We already know that she was.
James: He plays her like a fiddle and she just like is like wow, so.
Cody: You'Re saying you're actually a good guy after all.
Mallory: Which doesn't tricky for her. She already was not sure.
Cody: It doesn't really make sense other than if she's just totally going along with it because she's like I don't really give a fuck about what's going on because I want to be with Cliff. Right. So that's the only thing that can make sense of it.
James: Yeah, she's just like whatever I got to say to get you to shut the fuck up so we can go back over.
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: I love Spielberg.
James: You looked like you had something to say, Stella.
Stella: Never mind. M sure, yeah.
Cody: Um, Brady got canceled again.
James: I love that. Immediately upon finishing convincing her that he's got the right intentions he's like I got to go, we got to go over here. Wouldn't you think if he is this machiavellian master manipulator he would at least think like okay, now let's go do one thing by ourselves. Let's go into the fucking haunted house mirror maze thing where at least we can get separated. Ah, but instead he's immediately like cool, now I need to undermine everything I just did.
Cody: When this guy gets tunnel vision it is impressive bonkers. Yeah.
Stella: It feels like he's being so dumb about all ah, it's so obvious and I don't know, all of it sucks.
James: We're not seeing it for some reason we are seeing hints of it. But maybe this is just like things are supposed to be a representative of just how bad things are at home. Like you guys have kind of been alluding to like Mr. Man meets bad behavior is rubbing off on Dawson so he's acting out. We're not really seeing that in the show but that's the only thing I can think of because otherwise he's just being an asshole for no real reason.
Cody: I don't know, unless it's very purposely self destructive. Like he wants to be called out on it so he can just get the show on the road. He only has one goal in mind and that's really to corner Jen. So maybe in his mind it's like the faster this blows up, the sooner I could get to her. I don't know. Mhm thinking about it, there are so many times where this does happen. Like things explode and then, uh, let me try to think here. Dawson knows that he has a gift of gab, or at least in this universe people fall for it. So he's really just hungry for any opportunity where he knows that he can talk himself out of a situation because up until that point he's just nervous. But he knows that if he talks to someone he can get his way usually. So it makes sense that he would just like, want to blow this up as quickly as possible.
James: Mhm, that's a good point. Smooth talking Dawson.
Cody: That was the original title.
Mallory: Ooptak, Das.
Cody: Hey Das. In the Capeside Wetlands, Joey says that they should head back as the water is rising, but realizes the boat is now floating away toward the ocean. Pacey has pulled the ultimate ding dong move of not tying the boat up.
Mallory: Did you get this line?
James: Yeah, I did.
Mallory: HaCy.
Stella: What? You told me that you tied our boat up and the one that's floating downstream isn't ours.
James: I tied our boat up and the one that's floating downstream isn't ours.
Stella: This is also just a moment where I was like, yeah, PC is just cute and charming.
James: Yeah, he's just a little speaker.
Cody: Is he the dumbest man alive? I cannot tell if this is him having fun. Is he pulling strings?
Stella: No, I think he's just kind of careless.
James: Yeah.
Cody: Okay.
Mallory: Not paying attention. He's just not paying attention.
James: I want to know what he's thinking of through the day because he's just like, I'm out here to get snails, baby, I can't wait to get some snails. What am I going to do with this boat? Who cares? Let's find out.
Mallory: Well, maybe he doesn't row as much as, let's say Joey because she has to get to her house. So maybe he's not used to that. Like, okay, I got to tie it up now.
Cody: Mhm. Is that dude just so Zen? That deflects everything? Nothing, uh, matters. Like it be like Pacey.
Mallory: Uh, that.
Stella: Will be our, uh, group tattoo that we get.
Cody: What would Pacey do? WWPD you would fuck and then laugh at the classics. Throw a ball at some milk bottles. Carnival booth. Dawson and Cliff compete with each other to prove their masculinity while Jen and Mary Beth watch in silent disgust. After Cliff wins round one. Dawson begs for a second go. After a show of incredible pitching, dawson takes the second game and wins a big stuffed clown. His hesitation at which lucky lady he'll give the clown to is an explosive obvious mess, leading Dawson to tell Mary Beth that they need to talk.
Mallory: Does anyone else feel like we were watching a group date on the Bachelor competition?
Stella: For sure.
Mallory: Right?
Stella: Also, Cliff calls Dawson. Dawson.
Cody: Okay, that's fun.
James: Cliff also calls Dawson. This, uh, is a good one. Tough luck, Dan.
Mallory: Uh, yeah, tough luck.
James: D man.
Cody: D man, d man. Dan m. Is that your paranormal connection?
James: Oh, no, it's upcoming. But that is a good one. Maybe he is the devil in this moment.
Mallory: Uh, when Cliff got one and got to pick the animal. Right. I wish Jen would have been able to pick her own stuffed animal. Instead, she tells Cliff that he can pick it out because I trust you or whatever she says. I wanted to know what she would have picked out for herself.
Cody: It could have been a test, though. Could have been a test.
Mallory: Could have been.
Cody: She's like, if he chooses the clown, he's insane.
Mallory: That's true.
James: What did he choose again?
Mallory: Uh, uh, I think it was a dog.
James: Like a husky big dog.
Mallory: She had two at one point, though, so yeah, there's something remember my question about marine biology? No, I'm sorry, it was a cat. Because the carnival tenant goes, big cat for a little lady. Yeah.
James: What happens if you put cat in water?
Mallory: I do have a fun fact about the carnival attendant.
James: The carney?
Mallory: Yes. So I recognized him and I didn't know why. And so I looked up who this person was.
Stella: Um.
Mallory: Uh, he was a production assistant for Dawson's Creek. And he just happened to be in this they put him in this episode. His name is Craig Edwards. Um, he's on instagram as Craig Edwards, 9981. And he posts a ton of throwback photos from filming call sheets, hair and makeup, continuity, polaroids, and like a bunch of fun stuff for behind the scenes. We're following him on Instagram because that's.
Stella: How I was like, this guy looks.
Mallory: So familiar and I've seen his stuff. Everyone should go take a look at his account because it's fun stuff.
James: We can thank him for this line. It's a little loud, but it's worth listening to.
Cody: My friend, the lucky lady.
James: Thank you, Chris. That has been stuck in my mind since hearing it. Craig well, he's chris and me. Thank you, Craig.
Mallory: Chris and it was Robin Hood fox that stuffed, uh, from Disney's robin Hood.
Cody: Fox.
Stella: Just like him turning to so awkward, so cringey.
James: This whole episode made me I mean, he is he's actually thinking of giving it to Jen in this way?
Stella: I think it's just like a reaction. Like, he's just like, oh, I'm going to give it to Jen.
James: But then I forgot that I'm here.
Stella: With this other person.
Cody: It reminded me of, uh, the greatest film of all time, perks of Being a Wall Flower. When they're, uh, playing truth or dare. And what is the dare? It's like, kiss the prettiest girl in the room. And that's when he's dating May Whitman, but he hesitates because Emma Watson is there. It reminded me of that rough stuff. Classic boy move. Come on, bros. How often does this happen to you? Pacey enjoy bicker through the marshes until they finally reach the pickup sopping wet. Pacey offers her a blanket to change into and they both strip on opposite sides of the truck. When Pacey gets in the car, he realizes he can sneak a perverted peak at Joey. Changing all set to one of the absolute worst horny butt rock songs I've ever had the disclosure of listening to in my entire life. He can't wipe that shitting grin off his big, dumb horny face when she gets in the passenger seat, making her suspicious. He diverts complimenting her that, uh, she's fun to hang out with. And when she's loosened up a little and she playfully asks him to drive.
James: Her home yeah, that song. I want to be your underwear. Awful.
Stella: I want to be the sheets when you sleep.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: The razor when you shave.
Cody: That's disgusting.
James: Yeah.
Cody: That is no joke.
Stella: The worst song I'm making, it my, um, alarm when I wake up. That'll be what I wake up to.
Cody: That's a sad track to wake up to. Everything about this is gross. Pacey disgusting. I do not like this. I would rather him okay, backtrack. We had talked about his clownish exterior and that's what he uses to deflect because he's an insecure boy. Um, and I'd almost be okay with him being the horny boy exterior if it wasn't solidified that he actually is just the horny boy here.
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: She didn't give consent for him to auggle her through that rear view. That's disgusting.
James: It is. Um, I think this is supposed to be the, uh, girl takes her glasses off moment.
Cody: Or the girl lets her hair down.
James: Oh, my God. She's beautiful. It's really not cool. But what else can we expect from this show? Just like I said earlier with, um, the moment between Mr. Manmade and Manmade Jr. This show loves to beg the question, is this cute or is this toxic? Because this moment is like, hey, it's.
Cody: So fucking stupid that this is what triggers his attraction to her.
James: Yeah, boobies.
Cody: That's all it takes. Like, you would think that their fun banter would have triggered something in his mind to be like, wow, I really have a lot of fun hanging out with her. Uh, she's really smart and we have a lot of fun together. No, it's the fact that she was naked once. That's all it takes for him to be like, wow, I think I might like this girl.
James: I will say despite all of that, this is a cute little moment between Pacey, uh, and Joey here.
Cody: Yes.
James: Ms. Stacy undermined a little bit by that fucking music in the back. Right.
Cody: Joey always has the best reactions and faces and stuff. So I loved it when she was like, oh jeez.
James: Yeah.
Stella: I felt myself developing like a pretty strong crush on Joey throughout this episode. I just love her little smile and I don't know, I think she's cute.
Cody: Yeah, she's super cute. Katie Holmes is, I feel like the best person in the show. Not Joey. I think Joey is the best character in the show, but also Katie Holmes is the best at doing her character.
Stella: Yeah.
Mallory: For mhm sure. Anyone? M notice the level of water changed on her shirt throughout this when they're in front of the truck and then it's like up here above almost to her neck. And then when she goes around, uh, walks around to the other side of the truck, it's like not even wet. There's like no watermark. I did kind of a fun little you what?
James: I didn't. I normally do, but that sucks.
Cody: That means like the multiple days that they had to shoot the scene, it's like, I have to jump in in the water. The water.
James: I was too distracted by just thinking like, god, it would really be uncomfortable to be trying to drive a truck naked wrapped up in a blanket.
Stella: There were some pretty sunset shots of the creek.
Cody: Mhm.
James: It's a beautiful place to spy on your enemy.
Cody: Mhm agreed.
Mallory: Yes.
James: Okay.
Cody: Outside the carnival, Dawson finds Mary Beth to apologize. And she not only reveals that she actually doesn't like him like him, but that she in fact has feelings for Cliff. While they mop with each other, mary Beth proposes that there may be a way for them to help each other out.
Stella: Yeah, so I guess it, uh, kind of begs the question, why did she agree to go out with him? I wonder if she knew she didn't like him or she didn't realize that until she spent more time with him.
Mallory: I think she says she just had nothing to do. I think she kind of mentions that. And then when she found out, then later she sees Cliff, then she's like, okay, hang out. I'm going to hang around because I like Cliff.
James: What is it that she says about when she's talking about why that she likes Cliff? She's like, have you ever noticed when Cliff looks at you eyes smile? Yeah. Okay, I was trying to remember that. Uh, that's a weird way to put it.
Mallory: The smiles, um, entire banks.
Stella: Yeah, that's the thing. American. Yeah.
James: Prune. Prune. What?
Mallory: Prune.
James: Pruning.
Cody: Pruning.
Mallory: Um.
James: Vanderpump Rules reference one of the characters talk about Pruning in that show.
Mallory: I remember that. Okay.
Cody: Anyway, a, uh, couple of things. Mary Beth. Uh, I'm Tim Allen. From my perspective, this very short introduction that we've gotten to Mary Beth as a character. She seems very reserved, very intelligent, except for being duped by Dawson. But she does not seem to be someone that is, uh, overall chaotic. But she says something here about referring to herself as someone that creates scenes wherever she goes, which what the fuck does that mean? Uh, it's sad that this is the only time we're ever going to meet this character, but it seemed very weird. She creates scenes wherever she goes.
James: She's very understated and she's not super loud. So what does that mean? I'd love to see. If this were a, um, Monty Python show, there would then be immediately a cut to her, like, walking into the bank and all the tellers are like, oh my god. Like throwing money all over the place. Like somebody comes in to rob the bank and she's just like, oh, jeez.
Stella: If anyone can't sleep.
Cody: I, uh, wonder if it's just like her because she's super selfdeprecating. So I wonder if she just thinks that wherever she goes, she causes harm. But really, nothing wrong is ever happening. I don't know.
Mallory: Whatever her version of chaos is, probably nothing. I don't know.
Cody: Uh, anyone noticed that all of the carnival flags were Pansexual pride flags?
Mallory: Yeah, I noticed that. Yes.
Cody: I wonder if that's purposeful because Kimberly is gay. I don't know. But I mean, it would be interesting for that to be there for a purpose. I don't know. The return of she bends, she breaks.
Stella: M. Yeah.
Cody: I love that that song came back. Yeah.
James: Just so nice. You need to hear it twice, apparently. And speaking of hearing things twice, um, you're going to hear an ad break? I don't know. We're going to go to commercials. So we'll see the other side.
Mallory: Hey, folks, did you know the number one way you can help us grow is by telling your friends about the show? Hey, that rhymed. New shows like ours thrive on the power of word of mouth. Which is why I am here now asking you to please tell a friend about freaks and creeks. We've got an intro episode that is perfect for dipping a toe into before fully committing. You can share it with Bit lyfreakspod. Thank you for listening and spreading the word. Now back to the episode.
Cody: Now we're back. Later that night, the double daters. Wait at the base of the Ferris wheel for romantic rollercoaster of spinning in a vertical circle. Slowly in a small bucket. When Cliff and Jen's turn to pop in, mary Beth executes the secret plan, grabbing Cliff for herself, leaving Dawson and Jen waiting alone together.
Stella: Dawson's like, all right, you're ready?
Mallory: It's just like this big thing.
Cody: Secret plan.
James: Speaking of the Coen brothers, this is a heist. I wish it was the heist movie without the planning, I guess.
Mallory: Uh, and then Mary Beth okay, cliff, why don't you come with me? Because he barely talked all night.
James: This is the set piece of the whole experience. Yeah, I'm not going to hang out with you. So funny.
Cody: Joey and Pacey are back in dry clothes at Joey's place where he once again prods about her need for extra credit. She reveals she had actually got an A on her midterm but explains that she wants perfect grades as a way to earn a university scholarship believing it's her only way out of Capeside. Although Pacey jokes that he doesn't see himself ever making it out himself, he sincerely tells Joey that he believes in her.
Stella: Yeah this was, I thought a really sweet and moment um, between the two of them. Like they had some fun, um, bickering throughout and then just to kind of see him be genuinely supportive and being a good friend and giving her some pretty positive words of affirmation. It's like really cute. And Joey's wearing red.
Mallory: Yes, wearing red again.
Cody: More importantly, there's also a big braid.
Mallory: Of garlic hanging in the kitchen. Vampires right next to where Joey's standing.
Stella: Also where's the baby?
Cody: B. Oh yeah. Where's Bodie?
Mallory: Bodie.
Cody: Patty. Yeah. What's the child's name?
James: Alexander. Baby Alexander.
Mallory: Well we do get a mention of Bodie here because Pacey is wearing Bodies sweatshirt and um, Jody says don't thank me, thank Bodie. They're his wearing his clothing.
Stella: We haven't seen Body or seen in a while.
Cody: Probably know they're still at the Ice house.
Mallory: Where's the baby? I guess maybe sitter.
Cody: Table. Um, I mean we had talked about it earlier but this is what I want to see. I want to see those walls slowly break down. I like hearing him being encouraging. I wouldn't bet against that Potter girl.
Stella: Yeah, loved that.
Cody: Also another thing about just so revealing for Pacey for him to say that he's not going to make it out and he just sees himself working at a gas station. Um, nothing wrong with working at a gas station but if he really views himself as someone that will never make it to a career he doesn't know what he wants to do with his life given he's only 15 years old. But I think a lot of people can relate to this and being misguided and ah, he's internalized everything that people have espoused about him being like lazy or stupid, not giving a shit. So why should he ever care about wanting to make it in his life? He's suffering from a version of depression, some form of depression and it's all starting to click. But then again, like we've already seen numerous times in this episode especially is that we don't really see much of like oh that he is bright. Like it's just him being a horny cartoon, uh, wolf auga.
James: Yeah. What we know about Paisy is very little but we know that everybody in his family is a cop so presumably he also has the added burden of my entire life's path has been dictated by my family. Like they're expecting him. To be a cop probably. So he doesn't really have to do anything because he's like, well whatever, I'm just going to be a cop.
Cody: It's dark. Mhm having succeeded at cornering Jen in the great big bucket in the sky, he digs at her relationship with Cliff. She reacts by stating she wants to retract her offer of friendship as he's clearly still fixated on her. Dawson once again picks low hanging fruit and mocking her dating life and asks her to clarify her reasons for breaking up since she had stated she didn't want to be in a serious relationship. Thinking the state with Cliff is a contradiction, she says it's simply just a date. And when Dawson wonders out loud if she feels the same way of both of them need to be together, she has nothing to say.
Stella: I mean, yeah, Dawson, I feel like Dawson's big question about why did we break up because you said you wanted to be alone and now you're going on dates. I feel like that's very valid and I understand why he would be confused and frustrated. Um, I don't know, in some ways it's like just like give her some space. At the same time it's like I would want to know why too because that's really mixed messages for it to be like the whole reason we're breaking up is because I need to do my own thing. And then for you to go on dates, like, uh, probably feels really shitty and confusing.
James: M. Yeah, and I don't really agree with what Jen saying where she's like, it's just a day, um, we're not planning our engagement party or something. It's like, yeah, but you still said you needed to be alone so this is directly conflicting with that. Um. Not to say that she should turn down a date. Like you're saying he's entitled to be confused because that's fucking confusing and she.
Mallory: Has every right to go on a date if she wants to even though she said she was like.
James: Nor does she need to explain it to us. But at the same time.
Stella: Yeah.
Mallory: Well she was right and that we shouldn't let's not be friends because this is clearly not working right now.
James: He basically Dawson slut shames her, then he gaslights her and then he rubs everything in her face. So yet again we're seeing Dawson just have some of the worst behavior on the show but it's not dressed up in really aggressive language or like loud outbursts. It's very toned down and from a cute little white boy. So it feels like we're kind of like sugarcoating it and it almost feels worse to me. I don't know, do you guys feel that way too? It's not glorifying of this behavior to me, I don't know.
Mallory: Yes.
Cody: I don't know if it's necessarily glorifying it, but it feels more, uh, realistic because I feel like if we were to see a big melodrama of this taking place, let's say they shot the show in the 80s or 70s, it would have been a big, loud outburst. It would be this, like, very direct messaging of slut shaming. But I think, again, this is where I, uh, don't know if I'm giving blind credit to Kevin Williamson, but I feel like it's richer to tell it from this perspective of him being like a quiet, cutesy, uh, boy. Uh, because this is realistic. This is how boys act. More, um, so than just like, outright screaming and being a piece of shit. I mean, still a piece of shit, but he's doing it in a very, uh, yacht club.
James: Yeah.
Cody: Like, toned down way. And this is how a lot of people are.
James: Yeah.
Cody: Uh, so I guess are you saying.
James: That Kevin William you're giving him the credit of saying that that's intentional? He's doing that to show us, like, a bit of realism. Yeah. Okay. I guess I like if that's the case. I like that because you're right. This is more realistic. This is probably more representational of how a lot of people in the middle class, like, ecosystem work. At least, I should say. This is probably similar to a lot of experiences that people have had in their lives. If it's not because of that, because I'm always like, if we're seeing it on TV from our main character, they're trying to say it's good. Um, which is probably not necessarily true. Right. That's definitely not universal in media. But it feels like, uh, in a daytime TV show, that's what they're trying to do for us. Yeah.
Cody: The show isn't the sopranos. I don't think anyone's watching this with the eyes of someone that's trying to be really analytical and, uh, in the depth of these characters. You're supposed to be following this character, Dawson, and relate to him, which is unfortunate. I mean, if that's what the message that they're projecting is, like, oh, like, boys will be like him and we're going to feel bad for him because Jen is a crazy lady for dating when she said she wouldn't. That sucks. I don't know. Maybe this is just wishful thinking that I think this is purposeful. Uh, and again, how we've been viewing it, at least with Dawson being kind of shitty. Not kind of shitty, he just is shitty. When she broke up with him, that was validating to our reading of his character of being a bad dude. Because finally he's seeing repercussions of his actions. The thing that really sucks for me watching this play out is a gen ends up just saying nothing. And then that's what we're left with. So him being an asshole, uh, he's not rewarded for it, but he doesn't receive any negative comeback from it. Uh, so it's left vague, I guess, in a way that allows us to make that judgment for ourselves, which is good. That's what good art does. But at the same time, this doesn't feel like this isn't cinematic. This isn't literary.
James: Exactly.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: We're going to see this next week on Dawson's Creek and they're going to be pretending like this conversation never happened. Realistically, I, um, want to get back to your initial reading of the Ferris wheel being a representation of the cycle and the need to break that. I really like that. I think that is so cool. And I really don't like to your point that we don't get an answer here. I wish that there was a big statement from Jen beyond, like, I don't think we should be friends, which is really just a read of like, man, she's just getting so emotional here. She just needs to get away from this scenario.
Mallory: And then she's just at the very end has a non answer. She has this look on her face. She's kind of confused, but we don't know what.
Cody: It seems very pointed that they're pointing out a, uh, Ferris wheel and a merrygor round. Those are two things that just spin in circles. And they use the Ferris wheel for him and Jen. They're going to use the merrygoround for the paystyle, the Joey M. Deal stuff. Uh, which is why I feel like this is smarter, hopefully, than what I'm seeing because they are aware of the tediousness of this bullshit happening over and over again.
James: It's a good point.
Cody: I don't know.
Mallory: Um, the song playing in the scene was a Jan Arden song, again, called Hanging by a Thread. And then we should talk. You have the, uh, quote from Mary Beth, right?
Stella: Yeah.
Mallory: Over to Mary Beth and Cliff.
Stella: Another moment that made me laugh out loud.
James: Yes.
Cody: I'm sorry.
James: I do. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. So this is the best moment of the entire episode, in my opinion. Uh, this is how I want to just communicate with people in the future.
Stella: You know what I find fascinating.
Mallory: Is.
Stella: That the word flammable and inflammable mean the exact same thing. It's not bizarre.
James: It's so cool.
Mallory: And Cliff, he just, like, looks blankly, stares blankly ahead, doesn't say anything.
James: So, Cody, are you still a, uh, Cliff stand? He's still just a nice guy.
Mallory: I guess he was probably thinking about Jen.
Cody: Yeah. I mean, a couple of things. We should have talked to this earlier, but when they introduced Cliff again in this episode, he looks like he's aged 25 years. He is a full grown adult. He could be my daddy. And also, I don't know if I'm much of a cliff, Stan. I feel like his character is taking the back seat a lot. Uh, in the show, I thought he was going to be more of a threat. I don't know. But even in this kind of dickish with the, uh, boy stuff, with the bottle throwing and I don't really like that masculine kind of shit. It's obnoxious.
James: Uh, pissing contest. Classic pissing contest.
Mallory: Yes, a, uh, good line for Mary Beth.
Cody: But again. If I put myself in his shoes, I too would be staring blankly out at the sea being like, why am I in this big old bucket with a stranger?
James: Yes. I really wish that we got to hear from Cliff in this episode because what's his experience on this whole double date? He feels like more than just a villain. So are we really supposed to just believe that he doesn't have any opinion about this? Because otherwise he's finally got he's been wanting to go on a date with Jen for so long, clearly he finally got to take her out on a real day and then what happens? Dothel fucking comes with Mary Beth, who he clearly has no feelings for whatsoever. And then in the one most romantic moment of the entire night, which really would have gone the best that it possibly could, because it stops.
Cody: We could have made out so hard.
James: But I'm stuck hearing about flammability and inflammability with fucking Mary Beth dressed like my grandmother, like, poor Cliff, dude, grandma lawyer so good.
Cody: Yeah. I wonder if they're just like, phasing Cliff out. Uh, this might be the last time.
Mallory: I think he might be in the next episode, but do you think he.
James: Ever takes that letterman jacket off?
Stella: Sorry, I was going to say maybe he gets killed off.
Cody: That'd be sick.
James: I hope the show killed characters off. That would make this I'd be in forever if this shows. Like, yeah. Um, let's kill Mary Beth.
Mallory: Fall off the Ferris wheels.
Cody: Yeah. For the listeners in the O and for the listeners that are not in the know, uh, all we know about this upcoming episode is it is a spooky, uh, serial killer episode.
James: Yeah. In April.
Stella: The spookiest of all the thumbnail of the next episode is it looks like Joe screaming.
Mallory: Yeah.
Stella: Another scream.
Cody: Oh, yeah. I can't wait to hear like an updated screen.
Mallory: I hope we get another screen.
Cody: While Dawson silently broods on a carnival bench, joey and Pacey show up. Pacey quickly takes Dawson aside and discloses that his experience with Joey that day opened a world of romantic feelings. Pacey asks Dawson for permission to lay on a smooch and when he asks why, Pacey acknowledges the not so subtle subtext of their chemistry. Dawson gives approval but retracts, then quickly retracts the retraction and tells Pacey to go for it. As Pacey leaves with the news bringing a step, dustin stands for Lauren by the merrygor round.
Mallory: He looks so relieved to see Joey and Pacey walking up, uh, as, uh, he's sitting on that bench.
James: He does, yeah.
Mallory: Shiny feet, my friends.
Cody: Yeah, it was sweet but at the.
James: Same time it's like, no, you deserve to sit here and fucking bask in the shit that you created, motherfucker. Like, you should not get out.
Cody: And once again, another sequence where a boy sits on a bench and broods after something bad happened.
Stella: Yeah, I loved the um, Mary GAround shots going back between Dawson and Pacey.
Mallory: Uh, yeah, it almost looks like a horror movie behind them. The angle with the merrygoround behind them, that was cool.
Cody: Something that is, that I can't stop thinking about is I've already talked about maybe the symbolism of the merrygoround around. But another thing that seemed very purposeful is when Pacey is proclaiming his love for Joey. Now the carnival music is very loud in the background. That seems very purposeful. Are they trying to say that this is a joke? Like this is a circus? This is going to be something that's going to keep going and going and going. I don't really know how to read that. I don't know if it's mocking Pacey or if it's just saying that life is a circus. M.
James: Yeah, I didn't quite notice that, but that is a good point. Like they wouldn't just be randomly have the music be loud. So they did that for a reason. What is that reason?
Cody: Yeah, it's the first time that we've been at the carnival that we finally hear very, very loud.
Mallory: Yes, I did like that Pacey went out of his way to talk to Dawson and ask him, like, ask his thoughts on I'm pursuing Joey. Um, since he knew they had a past I didn't like later, obviously like the way that he went about it, but it showed friendship that he thought, oh, I should talk to Dawson about this first.
James: Yeah, I mean, I think it shows that he has conscience. Right. He's not just going to do it, um, with reckless abandon, uh, until he's with Joey. Right.
Mallory: That gets problematic.
James: Yeah, we should talk about that. But here I agree to your point or to what you're saying. It is kind of a sweet moment to see him talking about it's. Weird though, because, uh, it's kind of like making Joey an object. It's like objectifying that she has no say in this conversation. Right, of course she doesn't. But I don't know how to yeah, I don't know.
Mallory: Yeah, he's good here, but then he's not, uh, it's like the two ends of it. I don't know, one step forward, two steps back.
Cody: I don't necessarily think it takes away from her agency. I really do think it is just like between two friends because it's not like, hey, they're going to be more explicit about being like, hey, Dawson, I know you have feelings for Joey, but you've never consummated them. Like, you're my only friend, so would this ruin our friendship if I don't think it's like, mhm, can I, uh, sell you a goat or a cow for, uh, one of your daughters?
Mallory: And then he even asks, are you sure? After Dawson retracts it. So it's like he really, I think in that moment he really does care.
James: Yeah, I agree. But I do wonder if Dawson said no, where does Pacey go with that? What happens?
Mallory: Right? I wish dawson was more honest in that moment and actually stuck with his gut there.
Stella: Yeah, I was going to say I kind of wonder if that was just a gut reaction or what was going on in Dawson's head for him to change his mind and then change it back so quickly.
Mallory: Right?
James: Yeah, I have some theories.
Stella: All right.
James: Okay, so, um, first, I do want to play this audio clip. I know I said that the last, uh, clip was one of my favorites. This is actually my very favorite clip, possibly of all of Dawson's Creek so far.
Cody: My two best friends kissing.
James: What could be better than that? I love that.
Cody: That's, uh, amazing.
James: It is hilarious. But here is my theory. Okay, so Dawson is saying ridiculous shit. He says that right. My two best friends kissing. What could be better than that? Uh, of course he gives his consent and then he snaps into focus. Like the world stops spinning. He has this moment of realization. He says, no, actually, I don't give my consent on this. And then, as if afflicted by a hex or a curse or some kind of charm bell, he then is like, actually, you know what? Totally good. Love it, have at it. So here's what I think. Pacey is actually a warlock who his powers are awakening. He is just starting to realize his powers. He doesn't know how to control them yet, but what he wants is Joey's affection. He knows that in order to truly pursue that, he needs to get Dawson on board. And because of that, his instinctual powers charm Dawson in this moment. He doesn't know how to control it because he can't charm Joey later. But I think he's a warlock.
Cody: Yes, all signs point to yes.
James: I feel like £10 lighter after getting.
Cody: Yeah, you look just one last thing about that scene. Now that I think about it, that final wide shot that we get of Dawson, uh, being centered in the image with the merrygoround spinning in the background, uh, it's just another shot of Dawson looking like a toddler with all his clothes.
Mallory: The way he's standing too.
Cody: Um yeah. Pacey drops off Joey and as he walks her to the door, he expresses how much fun he had with her and lays on a smooch. She backs away, surprised when asking why he went for it, he explains that his feelings for her were awakened that day. Joey doesn't feel the same way, but Pacey says it's okay and acknowledges the awkwardness. She tells him she had a good day before walking to her front door, but he stops her to ask if they had kissed again, would she be thinking of someone else? She doesn't answer. And Pacey joins the sad sack for Lauren club.
Mallory: Does anyone recognize the song? Uh, she's the one.
Stella: Yeah. This song sounded really familiar and I couldn't place it. Like, if I had seen it in like another or heard it in another.
Mallory: Movie or something, but, uh, very catchy.
James: Speaking of Benfolds, when we were playing this, uh, when I watched this first time, I was like, is this a Benfold song? That I don't.
Mallory: It'S by one world. No. She's the one by World party. But then there's also a version by someone named Robbie Williams.
Stella: Oh, yes. That's how I know this song.
Cody: Um, he's like the UK pops singer, right.
Stella: I used to be very into Robbie Williams.
Mallory: Okay.
Cody: He used to be very into you.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: This is a weird scene. I feel like this is not the end of Jopay, as I'm calling them.
Mallory: Isn't it? JC? Isn't that what people call him?
James: Well, I don't give us another piece.
Mallory: Okay. We can make a new one.
James: Let's buck the trend and go with a totally new horrible. But this is such an, um, uncomfortable kissy.
Mallory: Very uncomfortable. He doesn't ask for Joey's consent. They weren't even on a date. So what's he thinking?
James: To play devil's advocate and maybe I'm putting my head on the chopping block. Like, all of you have been canceled already, so I got to join the clubs.
Stella: No, you were cancelled earlier, remember?
James: No, I don't remember that. Yeah, but, uh, to play devil's advocate, this feels very accurate for a 15 year old boy to do after he's been thinking of his feelings all day and work this whole moment up in their head. Especially in the 90s, before anybody thought about asking for consent.
Mallory: Let me show you.
James: Oh, yeah, sorry, I thought sorry.
Mallory: No, I just was thinking, like, I can't imagine a 15 year old saying that he went into it as if this is going to be smooth.
James: Yeah, definitely smooth. Like, Rob Thomas and Carlos Santana is a hot one. Uh, seven inches from the midday sun.
Cody: Oh, is that what the lyric is?
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: Okay.
Mallory: I just feel like it could make more sense if they were on some sort of a date. Like, then it's like, okay, this is already a vibe where we might like each other, but it wasn't even near that.
James: Which makes me feel like maybe there will be a, um, revisiting of this moment under the date condition.
Mallory: Right.
James: And then just explore these feelings. Because she doesn't, like, shoot it down. She's more just like, ah, having a good time.
Mallory: Yeah. She grabs his arm at the end, tells him she had a nice time, so he'll kiss him, I think.
James: Oh, yeah.
Cody: We're talking about how it's kind of gross that he lays on a big fat one, but, uh, just playing devil's advocate from the position, they had a really good day, they had fun. Their bickering ceased, and they had a very vulnerable moment. And it seemed like things were going in a direction that could open the door for a smooch. They went to the carnival together as well, so it wasn't an official date, but I could see myself in his shoes being like, mhm, oh, I think this is a mutual connection. And at the very least when she told him to stop, he stopped and then they had a discussion about it.
James: I agree, that's true.
Stella: From Pacey's perspective, it does make sense why he would choose to do that, but at the same time, it's like such a quick decision. After knowing someone and being friends with someone for so long to make that choice of like, oh, this could jeopardize our friendship seems like a pretty bold, kind of careless move to make.
Cody: Who is the most careless character on this show?
Mallory: It makes sense.
Cody: Killed all those sales.
Stella: Yeah.
James: He's the carnivore. He is just looking for some meat to eat.
Mallory: I just, uh, made a connection. So Jen has kind of a non answer and so does Joey in this moment. She doesn't answer, doesn't respond.
James: Keep the door open.
Mallory: Also, the first episode, we haven't really had an interaction with Jen and Joey absent, nothing between them.
Cody: That is interesting. Yeah, it just makes me think of like, what this? God, I want to know what this writer's room was like. I'm so curious because there have been so many weird beats to how these relationships are progressing, even just as friendships that it seems like so much is just they give up. I don't really know if they even know where they want these characters to go.
James: I can't wait to get to season two because I really feel like they had such a scattershot approach to season one with it all being filmed in a lump. Before episode one releases, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they had like nine big ideas at once and then they polished those out to full episodes that they were like as they were dropping in the timeline, we're like, okay, we can incorporate this idea now. But that's maybe why they all feel so disjointed. And we constantly are like, why is it like they forgot that this shit happened? Maybe because it was written before that shit had happened and then they shot it before that shit had happened. But it wasn't until they lined all of the episodes out that they really had those plot.
Cody: I don't know. Yeah, I feel like after they've been given the opportunity to take a step back and see uh, audience reactions and the exactly over the break between season one being viewed and before beginning even writing season two, that's going to be very interesting. I can't wait.
James: It's really cool because that's going to mirror our show's trajectory too. When we come back for season two, we're going to have fully written scripts that we're reading through the whole show. We'll uh, have Costuming and wardrobe in your hair, makeup. We'll probably have a full set. Um, so yeah, just look forward to that.
Cody: In Dawson's room, our sad boy pops out of bed, rushes down the stairs and out the door as we see his parents embracing in the kitchen as, uh, the telephone continuously rings. Dawson bursts into the video store where he says that he's changed his mind about being okay with Pacey kissing Joey. Pacey riffs, saying the deed has been consummated, and jokes about their budding relationship before admitting defeat. When Dawson jokes that Pacey is full of shit, pacey turns it around on him, pointing out that Dawson needs to finally make a decision about who he really wants. Joey or Jen?
Stella: Blonde or brunette?
Cody: Betty or Veronica?
James: Just let it ring.
Mallory: Let it ring again.
Cody: Just how shoehorned is that?
Stella: Yes.
Mallory: Really?
James: I love gayle's reaction to it too. It's like, it's the weirdest thing he's ever fucking said. She's like, yeah, let it fucking ring.
Stella: It is like a sweet moment to see them embracing and then Dawson gets to see that. I did like that.
James: Yeah, but you know, they're only embracing because Mitch is like slipping a GPS tracking on the back of her head. Like, I'm going to fucking track you.
Cody: Wherever you go, Gail. I feel like this is now the third time where we know that the ball is in Mitch's court with this relationship trying to heal. But whenever this storyline is progressing in any episode, it always ends on the exact same beat where it's Mitch puts on the cassette that has the shitty, uh, slow jams or it's him sitting on the front porch, or it's uh, this thing like let it ring. It's always him, it's the controlling thing.
James: Ah, but not progressing it to your point. It's just like, yeah, let's just keep it right here, treading water.
Cody: At this point, Gail should know that she should do something to kind of win him back. In a way. You would think that she would want to have some control over the situation and reignite the flame and maybe what.
James: We'Re seeing is a representation of kind of things that happen in real life is due to no fault of her own. Bob, I was going to say Ed. Fuck ed from Twin Peaks. You know, at Big Ed's Gas farm. Yes, he calls. Anyway, um, Bob calls the house and sets this whole thing into motion. It like Peaks mr. Man meets jealousy and of course that's its own can of worms. But that's nothing that she is doing that had to happen. But by the end of the episode he so graciously forgives her for something that is completely not her fault. But you know what I mean, like that realistic thing of like, sometimes you hurt people through no action or fault of your own. It just happens.
Cody: Mhm, very good point. I'm just trying to think if they're trying to use the Mission Gale stuff to mirror Dawson and Joey and the ringing phone is supposed to be Pacey, like, just let it ring. Pacey is going to try to get in the way of what our relationship has always been okay, uh, that's like the only plausible thing in my mind that makes this plot point worth even having in this episode interesting. It's not like they needed a sea.
James: Story because I would almost view Mitch and Gail as Dawson and Jen because through, uh, Dawson and Jen's trials and tribulations he was going to his parents for advice and through their relationship he got wisdom on their relationship, you know what I mean? But I agree, that's an interesting read on it, uh, because otherwise, why else is he doubling down on Joey?
Cody: There's a lot of, uh, triangles forming in these relationships. What's that? Mrs. Mrs. Triangle? Yeah, uh, with that mirroring this like throple kind of situation when Dawson jumps into the video store to a Cost. Pacey. What is Pacey watching? The Three Stooges?
Mallory: Okay, I was going to say yeah, but I liked that because they say look like, look at the fool and then they pan over to Pacey.
James: Yes.
Cody: Mhm.
Mallory: I liked that.
James: Yeah, I loved Pacey's speech. I actually capped it. I want us to listen to it for 25 seconds of Pacey. Just fucking nailing it. You know, it's time you start asking yourself some serious questions, Dawson, because you exhaust way too much time and energy on a girl you call your friend.
Cody: You know what, let's just set the record straight here. Who's it going to be? Is it Jen or is it Joey?
James: Do you like the blonde or do.
Cody: You like the brunette? These questions are not going to go away, Dawson.
James: It's time that you provide some answers. Had to keep that piano. I love that shit. I mean, I think Pacey redeems himself, uh, with this speech because he's right.
Mallory: He's right. Yeah.
James: Granted, he's also a little bit selfish here.
Cody: I wish his character made sense. Like he's the watcher, the great watcher that understands the, uh, mechanics of these relationships. He's done this before where he's kind of accustomed Dawson about these similar tropes, but, uh, again, he's also a complete dunce and feed snails to each other. So, like, who the fuck is this guy to know anything about anything?
James: Yeah, that really makes sense. Um, but I appreciate it.
Cody: Oh yeah, me too. It's a good speech.
James: I'll take any character putting Dawson in his place.
Mallory: Yeah, that was a great time where.
James: I'm at with this show.
Cody: At this point, every episode should really end with someone being like, dawson, you are a, uh, fucking idiot. This is why.
Stella: Yeah, I wonder obviously this question kind of keeps coming up. It seems very like, I don't know, this seems more like kind of direct in a way. I don't know, it seems like more like in Dawson's face. So I kind of wonder if like, this season will end with like, him making a choice or I don't know.
James: Yeah, I mean, he's definitely calling his bluff. He's like, all right, you have to start doing something.
Cody: Here.
James: You can't keep doing this. And I really thought the season was going to end with him choosing one of them, not knowing that by episode three he would be dating Jen.
Stella: Yeah.
James: So I have no fucking idea what's going to happen, but I agree. I feel like he's going to have to choose one of these two and then it's going to end up biting him in the ass. And I feel like it's going to be Jim, not Joey.
Cody: The thing that really bums me out is knowing that, okay, we're an audience in 1998, we're watching this on TV and we expect after the speech that, oh my god, it's all going to culminate to the next episode. That's where we're going to finally answer this. Uh, and now we have the knowledge that the next episode is like a high concept, highly stylized slasher that'll probably like it'll all be a dream or something. That's so frustrating that they would drag along viewers and then save it for the finale.
Mallory: I can assume that's what, three episodes left. So the next one is going to be nothing like separate.
James: And then that's best case scenario, they revisit this in the episode after or by the finale. Worst case scenario is they do this dream team sequence slasher thing to make us forget about all of this and then they come back with some basically trivial episode and then they set up the finale for something unrelated to this entirely. Like, HM, gramps dies. You know what I mean?
Cody: Like the what?
James: Like Gramps dies and then is Jen going to stay in Capeside?
Cody: I will lose my mind if they just go off the rails again on this. Just like answer the fucking question. I'm mad as hell.
James: Don't you fuck with my daughter's.
Cody: Crank.
James: Uh, did we do it?
Stella: I think so.
James: Wow. I feel much like Dawson and much like probably all of the characters in Dawson's Creek feel at the end of the scene here unresolved. I want to keep going, but we have to watch next week's episode to go further, I guess. So um, let's go into our ratings. He wants to go first. Me? Okay. Um, yeah, so, um, this episode gets a 3.18, which I'm going to go ahead and round down to a three. And I feel like that's pretty representative. Like, this episode I didn't particularly enjoy. I really liked moments of it. Um, I'm going to go ahead and just give it high marks for world building. We got a new character in, uh, Mary Beth. We also got this biology doctor in the classroom. We got the marshes. We got the carnival. I like that I want more of the world of Capeside revealed to us. We, um, also got a warlock. And I really liked Cody's idea that there is a snail human snooman hybrid that is out there. Uh, and I also really have a lot of memories of being a kid and looking forward to the county fair coming into town and like, all of the hijinks that me and my friends would get up to at the county fair. So I can't kind of help but channel some of those positive vibes into this episode. So three feels about right. And that's what I'm going to stick to.
Mallory: Uh, I'm going to give it a three as well. Um, I like the different settings. We got to go to the carnival, the creek, more rowing. It was fun to see some rowing. M, I did not like how they used Mary Beth. Um, since I'm pretty sure we're not going to see her again, I wish they hadn't used her in that way because we won't get to see her make a comeback. Really? Um, yeah, I don't know.
Cody: It really feels like such a waste of a good character.
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: I guess this is what you, uh, I'm trying to rationalize it. Even though Caveside is supposed to be a small town we've talked about before, this high school looks like there's like 20,000 students there. So anytime they need a convenient character, just like, step in to be the wall that's going to be pushing up against them, they're just going to invent a new student. That sucks that we got someone that was so rich with Mary Beth being an interesting, complex character, uh, that they're just going to let her fall to the wayside.
James: So what's your rating then, Cody?
Cody: Oh, is it my turn?
James: I feel like that was a good segue.
Cody: Yeah, sure. Okay. I guess I'm also giving it a three. I do want to point out though, originally I really, uh, did not like this episode. I gave it like a 1.5 until I felt as though, I mean, like, reading into my own bullshit, I liked the merrygoround symbolism. I'm thinking maybe this is very purposeful and showing that this is the straw that broke the camel's back. That's the thing, right? Yes. We're finally done treading water with something that is just like, push this to death.
James: Right.
Cody: Um, so m, if that's what they're trying to say, then that elevated two or three. Um, I hate Pacey being the horny boy, but I love them being vulnerable.
James: Um, hi, my name is Pacey and I am the horny boy.
Cody: Pretty much. Yeah. That's all he is really, until he actually does open up a little bit more. So? Yeah. I don't know. I'm excited to see where this goes. Uh, if they actually do live up to the promises that were explained at the end of this episode of finally making choices and moving things forward. But if not, then I'm going to be very displeased.
Stella: All right, I'm going to give it a 3.25. I basically didn't like any of the dots and stuff. Um, I don't think that the Pacy stuff bothered me as much as it did for the three of you. And, um, I basically just wanted the whole episode to be Joey and Pacey because I enjoyed watching their chemistry and I feel like every time they were on scene, I was much more engaged and interested in what was going to happen. Um, and yeah, I enjoyed all of their scenes and they're like, silly banter. Um, what was the other thing? Oh, the music. I really liked all the music this episode. Um, yeah, I think that's it.
James: Jo pei.
Stella: Yes. I just felt giddy the whole time I was watching and I was like, I can't wait to see what happens next with the two of them.
Cody: Also, this episode totally gets stocked for wasting Michelle Williams as an actor. Uh, once again, I mean, I've complained about it before, but ending almost every episode with her crying and giving a speech blows. But here they just ended with her crying and not even having a speech. So she's just like she is not useless. Jen is not useless, but the characterization is useless. You're not even doing anything at this point. It's just like she's just a prop for Dawson.
James: I wholeheartedly agree. They are doing her disservice, especially when she is giving one of the strongest performance, if not the strongest performance in the entire show. Um, in my opinion, yeah, definitely. Okay, well, I guess we should probably get into recommendations then, huh?
Cody: Uh, yeah, let's get out of Capeside.
James: Okay. Did I go ahead and go first on recommendations?
Stella: Sure.
James: Okay, cool. So, uh, I got a music recommendation this week, believe it or not, and I think you guys are really going to love this one. Um, actually I've been recommending a lot of kind of like King Gizard and the Lizard Wizard. I know a lot of records, a lot of albums. I'm also recommending another album right now, but it's by a band called Tropical Fuck Storm. And do you guys know tropical fuck storm?
Cody: Yeah, they're sick as hell.
James: They are sick as hell. Thank you. Tropical flux storm is, I guess, like an Australian rock super group. Um, they've got members of the Drones, they've got members of High Tension and they've got members of Modcon, um, all coming together and they record this really great music. Um, but I'm specifically going to be recommending an album called Satanic Slumber Party. If you haven't heard it, it's great. It's only 19 minutes long, so anybody can listen to it. It's on all of the streaming services that you can imagine. It's on Band Camp for completely free and it's only three songs and I love it. Imagine, um, that you are going over to your friend's house in October for a spooky slumber party. And, uh, while you're there, you're playing with your Ouija board and Oopsie Daisies, you summoned the devil and now you guys are all possessed by the devil. Well, that's what this album is. Um, there's three songs. Like I said, it's really mostly just one song. In the middle called Midnight in Sodom. And it's a fucking banger. Just go listen to track two. If you only have four minutes in your life to spare, which granted, you just listen to 2 hours of us jabbering on. I think you got some spare time. Go listen to the whole fucking album. But just listen to that one song if you don't. Um, so, yeah. Satanic slumber party. It's great. You'll love it. Tropical fuck storm.
Cody: Do you want to give us for fans of yeah, for fans of King.
James: Gizard and the Lizard Wizard? Because they're also on the record recommendations. Yeah.
Stella: Here I go. Okay, so I'm going to recommend the musician Margot Silker, last name spelled C-I-L-K-E-R. Um, I saw her perform a couple of times this summer at different music festivals and she was one of my favorite discoveries. Um, she's based out of eastern Oregon currently. Um, she had an album that came out, uh, in 2021, I believe. It's pronounced Pohoryl, spelled P-O-H-O-R-Y-L-L-E. Definitely recommend giving that a listen. She was I think where did I see this? She was, um, listed on NPR's eleven, uh, Oregon Artists to Watch in 2021. So that's pretty cool. Um, kind of like folksy bluegrass vibes. Um, yes, that is my recommendation for this week.
James: Nice. Pohorel poho real. Margo, if you want to watch an episode of Dawson's Creek and tell us how to pronounce your album. Oh, rile otherwise, yeah, that's what we're going to call it.
Stella: So sorry, Margo, if you're listening.
James: I'm sure she is.
Mallory: I'll go next. I, um, am going to recommend a book. It's called the Paris Apartment by Lucy Foley. And, um, I had heard about this author and book a while ago while I was looking for a good cozy mystery to read. Uh, and hadn't thought about it for another while. And then it reappeared on my radar when I saw it pop up on my Instagram. And this is going to be kind of a two full recommendation. So, uh, it popped up on my Instagram from Kevin Williamson feed, not from his own personal account, but he has a separate account that's also him. But it's called my scary book club. And he posts different, like, scary books that he's reading. And he takes recommendations from fans and he kind of interacts with fans. And this is one of them that he had posted about. And when I saw that I was like, okay, I'm going to read. Yeah, so it's fun. Um, The Paris Apartment is a thriller about a journalist who mysteriously disappeared while living in an odd apartment building in Paris. Um, and then so his half sister is supposed to be staying with him for a visit, but when she shows up, he's nowhere to be seen. So she kind of ends up unraveling what happened. Um, and each, uh, chapter in the book is told from a different characters perspective. And most of them are like neighbors within the apartment or like, some people who knew her half brother. And um, it gets really dark, like, toward the end, and it's really good. Also, there's an audiobook version of it where, uh, each chapter is read by a different voice. So you kind of get that. Um, I read on the Kindle, but James has been listening to it on the book.
James: Very good.
Cody: That's cool. I like books that are thrillers, where there's an unreliable narrator, but it seems like every narrative very good.
Mallory: I haven't read any of her other books, but I guess she does thrillers, like, she's a thriller author. Um, but this is the first time she's done this format where she writes different chapters from different characters perspectives, apparently.
James: I love a good cozy mystery, and this one feels like a really good modern cozy mystery because often times it's like, so antiquated that genre. Um, so it's fun to see it kind of updated, but still, um, very like, within the genre. And I'm curious, like, do you think maybe we could submit our podcast to Scary Book Club? Just tell them it's a book you should read Freaks and Creeks.
Cody: That would make sense.
James: Her transcripts online.
Cody: We can self, uh, publish them on Amazon. Right? There we go.
James: Put it on a kindle.
Cody: Yeah, that's a book.
James: Oh my God. Hello to all of our readers out there. What's up, you guys? You can't tell because you're reading this, but I'm really happy to be being read by you.
Cody: Hi. How sweet it is to be read by you.
James: Okay, Cody, what's your recommendation?
Cody: My recommendation this week is the debut record, God's Country from Oklahoma City Noise Sludge Band Chat Pile. Uh, kind of a hard to describe band, uh, but I took off their copy from their band camp, which I thought was very perfect to describing this. Um, so I'll just read it. Um, there is a sick irony to how a country that extols rhetoric of individual freedom in the same gas has no problem commodifying human life as if we're a meat to a ah, feed the insatiable hunger of capitalism. If this is American nihilism taken to its absolute zenith, then God's Country, the full length record from Oklahoma City Noise Rockort Chat File is the oral embodiment of such a concept. This is a very heavy, uh, I would call it similar to like, Jesus Lizard or um, any other sludge band from the 80s, early 90s, like, uh, the Melvin. It's super heavy and very, uh, noisy. And it just feels like the same feeling I get when I'm doom scrolling and feeling like we're living in late stage capitalism. The earth is, uh, burning, all of our politicians are useless, and we're all going to die a, uh, slow, horrible deaths in the United States. This record feels like it gives me, uh, an extreme catharsis uh, hearing them, I mean, they're vocalists. All of his delivery is like, speech screaming and all of it just feels like when you're just having that depressive mania of being like, we're all going to die and the world is completely fucked and there's absolutely nothing we can do. Uh, when he's screaming, I'm like, hey, that sounds like my inner monologue. Whenever I'm reading any article from NPR, uh, even songs, like, one song is just called Why. And it's him proclaiming over and over again, why? And talking about the homelessness epidemic that we're seeing. It's like, why are people living outside? Why the fuck are people living outside? Uh, it's cathartic. Um, and it's also really cool because this album is really blowing up. And they're a very small band. So the fact that they got, like, best New Music on Pitchfork is so bizarre. But I'm really happy for them. And it seems like, uh, they're going to be huge.
James: That's great. I love storytelling through music. Um, and, you know, I love not just storytelling through lyrics, but also storytelling through the feeling that music gives you, through the emotions that it makes you think, or through the questions that it makes you ask. So I'll definitely check that out. That sounds awesome. Um, cool, I guess. Is there anything else anybody wants to say before we go?
Cody: We're talking about the next that's a smooth transition.
James: That's the most smooth transition that there could be.
Stella: Stella, did you have, uh, the descriptor for next one? Hold up, please. Oh, you know what else? In the, uh, thumbnail of Jen, she's wearing red, uh, might be her favorite color. Okay, so next time on Dawson's Creek while Dawson is preparing to celebrate Friday the 13th, a serial killer is rumored to be headed to Capeside.
James: Rumored?
Cody: Any guesses on who the serial killer will be revealed to be? If it is real life, I'm going to say Billy.
James: M good question. Good guess.
Stella: Could be Cliff.
Mallory: Could be who's killed though, right?
Cody: The girl that they've already forgotten about.
Stella: Nelly.
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: Whoa, Nelly.
Mallory: Warren.
James: What if it's Nina?
Cody: Um, film thread.
Mallory: Ms. Jacob's.
Cody: Miss Jacob. That makes sense.
James: She's angry.
Stella: Wait, m who's? Nina?
James: From the film thread.
Mallory: From the bar.
Stella: Oh my gosh.
James: The beads in the hair. Somebody with beads in her hair is.
Cody: Going to fucking kill Carol. Walking Dead.
Mallory: Yeah, Carol.
James: This is premetal break. It's killing everybody. She then has to reinvent herself. It all comes full circle. Well, I'm excited. I love Kevin Williamson's horror. Uh, chops. He's proven himself as good in that regard. And I think that this will be fun. I'm really excited to see how they're going to do that in Dawson's Creek.
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: In Twin Peaks. The Return. This is my favorite thing in the world. Coop is locked in the Black Lodge, and then a lot of people theorize that Dougie represents all of the goodness and the sweet innocence of who coop is, whereas Mr. C. Is all the negative bad things about Coope. What if, in this world, Pacey gets split in half and all of the good vulnerable side of him is there? And then horny boy is taken away and then the serial killer kills horny boy. And this is why everyone loves pantsy, because totally horny boy die and then.
James: Special pants never come off.
Cody: Yes. And then in the final episode, everything, um, completely changes. And horny boy back and Pacey screams, what year is it? And then Joey screams, and then that's just the end.
James: That sounds great. David lynch. Did you write that?
Cody: I loved lynch. Would direct one of these.
James: It'd be amazing. Okay, well, on that note, thank, um.
Cody: You so much for listening.
James: This, uh, has been freaks and creeks. Of course, you knew that. But if you've enjoyed the episode, feel free to find us online. You can find us on social media at freaksandcreekspod. You can go to our website, freaksandcreeks.com. And until, uh, next time, bye.
Stella: Bye.
Cody: Bye.
Mallory: Hello.
Cody: Bye.