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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Speaker: Good
Speaker 2: morning Tom.
Speaker: Morning Paul.
How you doing?
Speaker 2: Doing well.
It's Friday.
I've got three weeks left in Hawaii.
I'm so excited to get out of this.
Speaker: Yes.
Paul and Island, counting down the days
until they can leave their beautiful
home in Hawaii, leave paradise.
We just, we
Speaker 2: can't wait
to get out of paradise.
Yes, they're sick
Speaker: of paradise.
They want to.
Come hang out with their
friends in San Francisco, which
is very understandable, but
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Yeah,
Speaker: yeah.
And he is being a great sport about waking
up very early Hawaii time in order to,
Speaker 2: yeah,
Speaker: hang out and do
these morning podcasts.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I think there's one stoic stoicism
adjacent topic to mention today, which
is that we're entering a recession,
or it appears to be that way,
Speaker: right?
Yes.
We have some big tariff
announcements that happened.
Yesterday and the day before,
Speaker 2: and the market's down
like 16% since the start of the year.
Speaker: Yeah.
And yeah, like 10% this
week or something like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
10% this week.
Yeah.
Which is a lot.
It's not the, we were just doing the
math on the percentage it fell in the,
in 2001 and 2008, they both fell about
40% and in 2021 it fell like 20%.
We, I'm placing a bet that
it's gonna be a 40% drop, that
it's gonna be a real recession,
Speaker: a 2008 type recession.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
I'm holding out hope that it
will be less than that, but
still obviously a recession.
Yeah.
So maybe in the twenties to thirties.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
But I think I, I don't, I've heard
people talk about this and I've, I think
I've experienced it too, even in 2021.
There is real despair that happens.
When.
Stock markets drop like this
among people who like, had
their expectations set too high?
Yes.
Yes.
Like I, yeah, I think, I don't know.
Have you felt it before?
Did you feel it in 2021?
Like
Speaker: No.
Yeah.
It helps that in 2021, I was coming
off a career as a graduate student in a
college professor, so I had absolutely
nothing at stake and it's, I still
basically have not much at stake.
No I guess I feel lucky
to feel pretty immune.
To this kind of downturn.
Yeah.
It doesn't,
Speaker 2: yeah.
I think it usually happens when,
you just bought a house and Right.
You just got laid off and like what?
Like just a couple of different
factors in place, or you were just
like planning, that money was like you
were taking that money for granted.
Yeah.
And then it, if it's gone
like that feeling right.
Yeah.
Devastates people.
It's it was very hard.
IF for us and even in 2021 with a
20% drop, I remember all of a sudden
being like, oh my God, we're poor.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh my God.
We can't afford to buy a house.
Yeah.
And that was, and that I
remember that was really tough.
There was, there all this reckoning
that we had to do with like, all
right, so like we really need to like.
Okay.
This is obviously very privileged,
but both my wife and I, both
UPI and I went to Harvard.
We're both in like a hot industry
and there's this idea of our salaries
will obviously keep going up.
Yeah.
And it was in that moment where
we were like, actually, what
if they don't, they may not.
Yeah.
And they probably won't.
In fact, they might go down over
time if we don't wanna be like
killing ourselves at our job.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And like the, there
are periods where the stock
market is flat for 10 years.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker 2: And we've been in
we've had all the tailwind
imaginable for our entire lives.
It's about time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
So I think that's a,
a moment for stoicism.
I think that we're all gonna collectively
go through some stoic thought here.
Speaker: Yeah.
I really agree with your point that this.
The emotional reaction to this is very
tethered to what you were expecting
before it, it happened and I think, yeah.
Speaker 2: You already
live in stoic feeling.
No, I'm not
Speaker: saying that.
No.
I'm definitely susceptible to it
as well, but I also think yes, to
your point about if you've just.
Bought a house or had a kid Yeah.
Or embarked on some big expense
that you will be not easy
to extract yourself out of.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a lot harder because you
can't just adapt to it on the fly.
But I think we're very lucky to,
obviously, in a lot of ways, but
especially to be in places in our
lives where it is okay, we need to
change the plan a little bit because
whatever, our dollar's not gonna
go as far or whatever for a while.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, we're
in the perfect position.
Speaker: Yeah,
Speaker 2: I told you this anecdote
right, of my wife's manager shared his
expense sheet with us and it's 1.3,
or sorry it's, in order
to just sustain expenses.
Yeah.
They need a household income of 1.3
million a year.
Yeah.
Just to sustain expenses.
That's insane.
Speaker: Insane.
Speaker 2: And and the
anecdote is oh yeah.
When I was in my early thirties,
like you guys, we also did
the math on a spreadsheet and
thought it would be like 300 k.
So just get ready,
Speaker: yes.
It's go, yes.
Whatever your spreadsheet says, just
for exit, and then you'll be correct.
Yeah.
So
Speaker 2: that's the real.
Danger.
Yeah, that's the scary part.
Yeah, like it's that's the, basically,
that's the reason I don't want to
go get over my skis at any time.
Yeah.
Personally is because of that
feeling of I have immovable expenses.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's crazy.
So I don't want to go too
much into personal details,
but there's no smoking gun.
We kept, we, we were
looking through his finance.
He was very kind to share right.
With us.
Yeah.
And we were looking through
it line by line, and we were
looking for some smoking gun.
Ah, you bought that like golden statue.
Aha.
But it was, none of it was, it was
all like childcare and like a nanny
and okay, mortgage on this house.
It was all like, just, pretty reasonable.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Just somehow total to 800 K adds up to
Speaker: way
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Way,
Speaker: way
Speaker 2: more than you think.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
I, we talked about this at the time.
We talked about that too, but I
also think there is a certain amount
of people end up in that position.
Yeah.
Just either through inertia where it's
just yeah there's no budget discipline
and it's just like stuff keeps going
up and you don't make any sacrifices in
order to add or through some sort of like.
Keeping up with the Jones'
competition kind of thing too.
Yeah, I think, yeah.
And that I think there's fear there.
And I think re your comment about
downturns like this especially sudden
ones being a moment for stoicism.
I think that's really true.
And to me what it is it's really the yeah.
A word.
We haven't used a ton in this podcast,
but that I think is deeply related to
stoicism is like courage, basically.
I think it's like genuine moments
of looking at the world and seeing
that there's a ton of uncertainty
out there and being like yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah.
Speaker: I'm okay.
I don't need to yes, I don't know what's
gonna happen, but I'll be all right.
Yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah,
Speaker: that's correct.
Very healthy I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very healthy.
Yeah.
For whatever reason, I've been thinking
about that recently and I feel like
that is just like such a valuable
thing to be able to look at the world.
Yeah.
Full of uncertainty.
I think we're, we live in times,
even when it's not a recession right
now, but the, we live in times in
general that just feel that way.
Our political system feels
that way in the United States.
Speaker 2: We're constantly as humans,
we're constantly painting pictures
that, that, that feel certain.
We're constantly creating a
sense of certainty oh, this
is how stock markets work.
Oh, this is how like.
Like your health was gonna go and Yeah.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker 2: And none of it is true.
Yeah.
It's all just made up like it's all just
it's the only way to like sleep, that it,
it's a very nice way to sleep at night.
But it doesn't, yeah.
It's not actually true, like historically.
We shouldn't just have continued peace.
We shouldn't just have it
doesn't make any sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyway, I'm,
Speaker: yeah.
I'm a fan.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: I totally agree.
Yes.
And I too have been thinking about, okay,
how do you handle, how do people live
with the reminders that we get, that
those fantasies we construct are not true.
Yeah.
And I, to me, that has boiled down to Yes.
I do think stoicism and some sort
of courage that goes along with
it is a big part of the answer.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
The other area that I'm a bull is this.
The Republic might be over like the, yeah.
Roman Republic lasted 400 years.
We've been at it for almost 400 years
too, and like it might be time to, to
get some emperors like that might not
be our, that might be the only option.
I hope that's not true.
Speaker: I hope Roman Emperors
Speaker 2: still lasted for 400
years after Emperors, yeah, and
it was all right in the beginning.
Yeah.
And anyway, I mentioned this
last time I'm reading a book.
Yeah.
Or I finished a book called Autocracy Inc.
Which is yeah.
Its main argument is that the center of
gravity is totalitarian dictatorship.
It's, yeah.
Not it's not like everyone will
eventually figure out, like
that's that's like an exception.
Not the rule.
The rule is dictatorships.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
And
Speaker 2: we're all
circling around that drain.
And I walked away after read that book.
Agreeing.
Yeah,
Speaker: Yeah.
You, you explained some
of the points to me.
Yeah.
I do think it's a, that's a sort
of compelling and very scary idea.
I'm hoping Americans don't give up on
democracy quite that easily, though.
I'm I think no.
Speaker 2: We'll put up a fight, but
Speaker: yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: I hope so.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well,
Speaker: a, another good example of
something that requires a little bit
of stoicism and courage to, to hold.
I think
Speaker 2: I like the theme of
courage, like framing it as courage.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Instead of
just sto like a defensive.
It's like an offensive instead
of a defensive framing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Should we do some reading?
Get a little dose of
stoicism to Let's do it.
Yeah.
Accompany these times.
Okay.
Yep.
Entry book eight entry 22.
Stick to what's in front of you.
Idea.
Action utterance.
Speaker 2: All right.
Tom, stick to what's in front of us.
Speaker: Yeah.
That feels like a, that feels to me
like it's in direct conversation to the
thing that we just were talking about.
Yeah.
Don't get ahead of yourself.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Action utterance.
Yeah, I think, it's you getting
married and me moving back to sf.
Yeah.
We got lots of stuff going
Speaker: on.
Yeah.
What's really yeah.
What's we can read the news and
see Oh, scary stuff is happening.
Yeah.
And it is, that's not to deny
that those things are happening.
Yeah.
But I think there's truth in living
in that kind of theoretical far
away negative space is not great.
Yeah.
And yes, idea action utterance is nice.
And I, and also this is a
reminder to me of how much.
That sounds like a sort of a
sequence to me idea action utterance.
So much of Marcus's like philosophy
about controlling what you do
seems to really be about speech.
That it's like the whole world is
someone comes to him and presents
him something and then he thinks
about it and then he says something
Speaker 2: That might
be his world actually.
Yes.
That, yeah.
Speaker: But it's, yeah.
In some ways that's true for
a lot of modern people too,
Speaker 2: yeah.
Speaker: That a lot of our
work basically takes that form.
But it's, yeah, we don't
Speaker 2: exactly hold court, but
Speaker: Yeah.
But still, yeah, it's very much just
Speaker 2: yeah,
Speaker: input is information,
output is speech, repeat the cycle.
Seems to be his framing of the world.
Speaker 2: What does this mean to you?
What does this line mean to you, Tom?
Like what?
Practically speaking, what are you
gonna do today that's in front of you
Speaker: that stick to
what's in front of you?
I think it means to me.
Okay.
Honestly, what it means is put the
phone, like you can read about every
individual tariff and retaliation.
Yeah.
And whatever.
There's gonna be a bunch
of news coverage today.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Eh,
Speaker: yeah.
Maybe.
Maybe go hang out with your.
Significant other instead,
maybe go take a walk.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I think that's, have you been getting
back into the cyclone of news or,
Speaker: I think I am.
I'm at something that has been a sort
of stable ish equilibrium for me for
a while, which is, I do still read
enough to feel like I know what's
going on, but I am much, much better
about not just oh my God, I have
to spend three hours a day reading.
Yeah.
Scathing coverage of the current
administration, because I can't, yeah.
It's not doesn't do me any good.
Yeah.
So guess, but even
Speaker 2: that, even that's a lot.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yes.
But I easily, on a day like today over
my lunch break or whatever, could I just
spend the whole hour reading New York
Times, which coverage of what's going on?
Yes.
I could do that.
I think this is a good
reminder for me to not do that.
Yeah.
How about you?
Do you, is there a.
Does something stand out to you
in terms of how to I improve?
For me it's
Speaker 2: like we, Whoopi and I are
just masters of living in the future.
That's our whole shtick.
Yes.
That's what we do.
Yeah.
And the way that's manifesting
right now is that we're in paradise,
but we really want to get out.
Like we, we cannot wait
to get out Paradise.
Yes.
Speaker: That's a nice microcosm
of a challenge that you guys have.
I think.
Yeah.
It's
Speaker 2: It's like just the two
of us found each other as like the
most future lived dwelling creatures.
Speaker: Yes.
Anyway,
Speaker 2: so we're gonna try to
just just enjoy living in Hawaii Yes.
For another month.
I think that's a really,
Speaker: I know you're, you're
being funny about that, but I
think that's a really good idea.
Yeah.
I think that's totally right.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna hit
up the grill tonight.
We're gonna, yeah.
We're gonna get some plastic cups.
We're gonna drink some wine.
Nice.
Speaker: So
Speaker 2: That's sticking
to what's in front of me.
Yeah.
Which is paradise.
Another day in Paradise.
Yes.
Speaker: That's right.
I think that's, yeah.
I love that.
I think that's a great point.
What a good literal such a
straightforward reading of this
that I think makes so much sense.
Speaker 3: Yeah,
Speaker: yeah.
Okay, let's, 22 A is interesting.
A classic 22 a situation here.
This is what you deserve.
Speaker 2: Nice.
You
Speaker: could be good today.
But instead, you choose tomorrow.
Speaker 2: Ooh, you could be good today.
All
Speaker: What do you, yeah.
Give me a hypothesis about what's
going on for Marcus in this.
Speaker 2: I read this as.
Very selfishly, I read this as some days
I have a bad day and I'm like, I'm gonna
eat chips and I'm gonna watch YouTube and
and that's what I deserve because X thing,
because whatever X thing is going on is
like hard and I deserve something happened
Speaker: to me.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
And I.
And it's, it is true, I could be good
today in the sense that it actually
will make me feel better anyway.
There's really no, like the way that I,
it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Yeah.
If I tell myself that I should be feeling
bad about this, I will feel bad about it.
And it doesn't really help anyone.
Yes.
That's how I read it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
I think I have a similar-ish read
the, this is What You Deserve
is a bit ambiguous, right?
Yeah.
What is what you deserve?
Yeah, but I read this as being
also like, goodness for Marcus
is like being direct and honest
and true to yourself with people.
Yeah.
And I, what I, the subtext I'm filling
in around this entry is like there's
maybe some kind of situation where he
could deliver a direct thing maybe that
someone doesn't want to hear or is yeah.
A little bit difficult for him
for some reason or another,
Speaker 3: and
Speaker: he chooses not to, he gives
into a human thing of like avoidance
or like pleasing or something.
And he is Marcus, you
got what you deserved.
Yeah.
Now that you've done that, yeah.
This problem is still going on.
You haven't fixed it, and you chose
tomorrow to do the good thing instead.
And.
The point is, yeah.
So to, to, and I think it's very much
like what you're describing, where if you
just are in a situation where you're like,
Ugh, I had a, I'm having a hard time.
You, it's easy to say I'll be
good tomorrow and fix it then.
Yeah.
But you, yes you get what
you deserve when you do that.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Yeah, that's a much
more moralizing version.
Speaker: Yeah, I guess that is moralizing
as I was coming outta my mouth.
I feel like it is a little
judgmental or something.
Speaker 2: No, I, it's okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Because yeah, that's,
Speaker 2: yeah.
You read it as this is what you
get for procrastinating yeah.
Yes.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Fair enough.
Speaker: Because I guess it's
because the tone of those
next two sentences is so like.
He's so he's, it sounds to me like
he's being pretty mean to himself.
You could be good today, but instead
you choose tomorrow's, you choose yeah.
The missing text being there like,
you, lazy piece of crap, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
That's a mean reading.
I, yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: I don't know.
Yeah.
It's the of that's, yeah.
It's, I think you're right.
It's the tone of those two
sentences hit my ear pretty mean.
Speaker 2: Uhhuh, Uhhuh.
I, okay, just being selfish Again,
here's the other thing that's going on
in my life is I'm stepping down from
keeper, from being the CEO of keeper.
Yeah.
And like it's all there was a
very cute like announcement.
I'm still there for two months.
People have been very nice about it.
Yeah.
Considering, right?
Yeah.
But there are elements, and I
think this is gonna pick up over
the coming month, where there's
the elements of ah, I think so.
I think people are like, all right, Paul.
Whatever, man.
It doesn't really matter what you think.
Yeah.
You're not gonna be here to
deal with these problems,
Speaker: see this through.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: And that is what I deserve.
That, that, that is true.
And I I actually need
people to behave that way.
Because it, it's my like 20%
I, I own 20% of the company.
I want the people to like own the prop
proponent we didn't need you anyway.
Get outta here.
That's what I want.
And it is what I deserve.
And
Speaker: well,
Speaker 2: yeah.
Anyway but I think they
could be nice about
Speaker: it
Speaker 2: though.
They are nice about,
they are nice about it.
Okay.
But there's a there's there's
like truth to both sides yeah.
So I guess I, without going into details,
like there are ways in which the fact
that I've known this is coming for a
while has caused me to make certain
decisions in a way that certainly
in retrospect, like we're actually
not the best decisions for business.
I'm not gonna go into details
but that was, I can see why,
I could have been good back then.
And I instead chose to put off certain
hard decisions until my announcement.
And now you feel
Speaker: like you're
paying the price for it.
And
Speaker 2: now and yesterday I
had like a session where people
ranted at me and I was like, ah,
I remember, I felt sad afterwards.
I was like, ah it's hard work.
It's not as easy as you think,
like having to have all these
decisions on your shoulders.
And I even said that in the meeting and
it didn't feel any better after I said it.
Okay.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But, yeah.
So that's the other way
I was thinking about it.
So it's still it's still a bit
more positive than your reading.
Yes.
It's like it's a good thing
that this is happening.
Speaker: Yes.
It's
Speaker 2: natural.
This is what you deserve at a more
like religious level or something.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Or or a more
nature with a capital N level.
Yeah.
And so given that this is what
you deserve, just be good.
Whatever, like it doesn't matter.
Speaker: Yeah.
Okay.
I, yes, I like that reading much
more and I think it's supported
as I'm reading this more closely.
Again, the tense here is interesting,
where it's not, my reading is more Closer.
Closer.
You could have been good, right?
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
My reading is you could have been good
today, but instead you chose tomorrow.
It's phrased more actively than that.
That's true.
Which is you still have the
chance to be good today.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Very Christian of you, Tom.
To make it look, retaliatory.
Speaker: Yes.
Yeah.
What is going on in my subconscious
that I read this as, so I read, yes.
That it just reads as very
self-loathing and Yeah, whatever.
To me.
But yes I like your reading of it.
But yes, the tone be
this is what you deserve.
Speaker 2: This is what you deserve.
Speaker: Yes.
It can be much more neutral.
You could be good today.
Neutral.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're, yes, you're right.
Yes.
I like that much more as
opposed to the kind of emo
reading or whatever that I like.
This
Speaker 2: is what you deserve.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a funny sentence in a way in English.
'cause it, yes, there's.
Depending on the emotion you assign to
the sentence, this is what you deserve.
It can be a very positive sentiment or
a neutral sentiment, or a very negative.
Speaker 2: Right.
That's a great microcosm of
how this whole book basically.
Speaker: Yes.
Yeah.
It is a fun little cipher or whatever.
Yeah.
You can see in it what
you want to see in it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Number 23, what I do, I attribute
it to human beneficence.
What has done to me, I accept
it and attribute it to the gods.
And that source from which
all things together flow.
Speaker 2: Sorry.
Human beneficence is just
Speaker: the goodness of people.
Speaker 2: The goodness of people.
So he attributes what he does
to the goodness of people.
Speaker: Yeah.
That's interesting.
It's very
very self-effacing, very like.
I think I, I think it's what
he's saying is I shouldn't
take credit for good or bad.
What I do is just the result
of the regular process of
humans being the way they are.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: And interesting.
Yeah, I interpret this, he's, it's
about attribution and he's just
don't get a, don't get a big head.
This is a, to me, this reads as an antigo
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker: Entry.
Speaker 2: What does it mean to, at, so
let's say that I help an old lady across
the street and it's so you attribute it
to this is why is just what people do.
Speaker: Yeah.
Why did I do that?
Oh.
Just 'cause people are
good and I'm a person.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
It raises
Speaker: the question what about
when you do something bad, Marcus?
Exactly.
Like you're not perfect.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
What about human mal?
Speaker: Yes.
Yeah.
Or just
Speaker 2: whatever incompetence.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, interesting.
It's like a layer removed.
'cause I would expect it's
the right thing to do.
If I was, I guess if I was the
old lady, I'd want help too.
Speaker: I think he's, I think
he's zooming out another step for
that even further, which is that
Speaker 2: I'm a person
and people are good.
And what people
Speaker: Are,
Speaker 2: yeah.
Speaker: Things that do nice stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Boy, that really takes a lot of
agency away from Yeah, I know.
It is.
It is
Speaker: a very interesting.
Yes.
And then also I guess the
second half feels more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, whatever
Speaker: routine for him that it
just like whatever happens to him.
Although it, I guess there, there's
something there which is like, what
is done to me could include stuff
that is done by other humans to me.
And he says, actually, I don't really
the gods, it's not really about
the other humans doing stuff to me.
It's just about the
gods doing stuff to me.
Or Right.
Or the sources that run
even deeper than the gods.
Do you.
It's a, it's not a very
empowering way to live.
No.
Speaker 2: No, that's
stoicism in a nutshell though.
You give up agency to get calm and.
Calmness.
Basically that's the trade you're making.
Speaker: But you do get some,
this is like zero agency.
And to me, I like Sto Stoicism does
involve this very nice dose of these
nice small doses of agency where
you really do get to make a choice.
Speaker 2: You like control?
Yeah.
You have a very narrow window of agency.
You
Speaker: acknowledge what you can
control, which is small, but it's
not the same as saying it's zero.
And this is saying it's zero.
Speaker 2: What if.
What if you read this a little
differently, what if it was like
what I do, I attribute it to like
I was treated well in my childhood.
People have been generally good to me.
Okay.
Like I'm just a reflection of
Speaker: Yes, I bet.
You know that those,
Speaker 2: that gratitude.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay.
That's a little bit more empowering.
Speaker: Well, a little.
It's still there's an implication
there that all we are is the
product of the upbringing we had
or whatever, which is still a,
Speaker 2: but it's grateful.
It, it reads.
Yes.
It's a little bit more look
I'm, I, of course I'll stop
and help the old lady because.
I got given the, I know that
people will do that for me.
Yeah.
Like I, yeah.
And it's the right thing to do.
It's, it goes back to this like
moral code instead of having
it be like, I have no choice.
I am just a human.
I'm a
Speaker: good a goodness robot.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, no, I, I like that.
I still, I'm not sure that I find it
empowering, but I definitely I am the
gratefulness as an improvement upon
this, like first reading we had, which
is extremely, I am a cog in a machine
Speaker 2: yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah, that's an interesting one.
I, we see him, I guess I, I'm
chalking this one up a little bit.
He's always working out
his ideas on the page.
'cause I do feel some
tension between this.
Yeah.
And his more free will empowerment
kind of stuff that we do.
We do also get, yeah.
Speaker 2: Last week my battery
died in my car, so I walked to
the nearest car mechanic and,
Speaker: okay, that sucks.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: It's okay.
And he was like, he was just
like sleeping on the ground.
And I just stood there for maybe.
Five, 10 minutes until he woke up.
Okay.
And then because I didn't
really wanna touch him okay.
Yeah.
So I just stood there.
Scream at him.
Yeah.
And then he woke up and
he was like, oh, hi.
And then on the floor, like no
pillow, just like on a concrete floor.
He was sleeping.
Okay.
Then he woke up and he gave me
his like, remote car battery
that I carried back to my car.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I was like,
oh, thank you so much.
AAA would've cost me a fortune.
I'm really glad, happy about this.
And then I came back and I was
like we, I was like, okay, 50.
You know what's the price?
Like 50 bucks?
Yeah, sounds good.
Yeah.
And then I came back and
he was like, it's free.
It's free.
And then he said, welcome to
Hawaii, and I was like, oh.
I was like, wow.
Damn.
I feel like that's very nice.
But I, yeah, I don't know.
It doesn't look like you're getting
a lot of business and I really
do wanna pay someone for this.
And so what do I do?
I like carry it forward, right?
I don't know.
Yeah.
I just, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
If you do, yeah.
If you need an oil change
or whatever, go to that guy.
I feel like it's the, yeah, go to that
Speaker 2: guy.
Yeah,
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's nice.
That's nice.
And I like the, yes, he has,
in a way, he's created a
problem for you by doing this.
Where it's like, how do I, oh yeah.
I guess I'm
Speaker 2: like stressed about it now.
I like Exactly.
I need to remember to get my
oil changed with him, with,
Speaker: with that guy.
Yeah.
Yes.
Before
Speaker 2: I leave the island.
'cause otherwise I'm a dick.
Yes.
Welcome to Hawaii.
Thanks.
Yes.
I hate this place.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Speaker: I think I totally
sympathize with that.
I completely know what you mean.
It's the same problem with just like a
thing that I happen all the time that
happens to me all the time is like
a friend texts me and wants to just
catch up over text what's going on?
And for me, my, my emotional reaction
that even though I love my friends,
I know is if I saw this person in,
in, in person, yeah, absolutely.
I would be, I'd be thrilled.
And I'm like, Ugh, I have work to do.
I have to.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Yep.
And I feel like it's, but okay, the thing
that I'm trying to practice, so that's no
Speaker 2: agency, that's someone being
nice and taking your agency away from.
Speaker: Yes.
Okay.
But I think there's another way
of looking at it, which is that we
are not victims in these moments.
We're actually being, we
are being given a gift.
No, not, which is this opportunity
to be generous and like your, in
your example for instance, you,
yes, you have a problem now.
How to be, how to thank this guy.
How to be grateful for this
guy who did you A nice thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: I think we should be so lucky
as to be presented with problems like
that throughout our lives, basically.
Yeah.
Because I do think when sometimes
you're not gonna crush it every time.
I certainly don't do I text
my friends back right away.
No, I'm bad at it.
I not Good for me.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Sometimes.
You do well and you actually come up with
a good way to be grateful to that person.
Yeah.
And that feels, in my experience,
Speaker 2: really good.
Yeah.
Very,
Speaker: Very good.
Yeah.
What a nice thing.
Don't always nail it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Also though, with the
friends texting back yeah.
I find that it's a very helpful
tool to then forgive other
people for not texting me back.
Yes.
And not get upset at all at them, because
I'm like, look dude, I've been there.
Speaker: I get it.
Yes.
Yeah.
Totally.
Speaker 2: I'll send you a, how
was your Dayto day Tom message?
Okay.
End of day to day I'll,
for the next two weeks.
I'll
Speaker: respond in early May.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'll be like, how are you?
I'll just send you, how are you?
Every couple of days.
Oh God,
Speaker: how are you?
Just a nightmare for may I, the
worst possible thing, but what,
Speaker 2: this is a very mean thing
to say, but I feel like that's cruel.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker 2: How are you as a cruel text?
Speaker: Yes.
We're being jerks, but Yes.
Yeah.
No I agree with you.
That is my immediate emotional reaction to
that text is why have you done this to me?
Speaker 2: Why?
Why?
Yes.
Speaker: Exactly.
But it's, that's, we're being very
selfish, little brats, I feel like,
because I think it's a disease
Speaker 2: where like we're like.
Stuck in some kind of like instant
gratification loop where we can't, we
don't have the 10 minutes to like really.
Wow.
What a gift.
To get to reflect on how I'm feeling
and share that with this person.
Yes.
And
Speaker: To be reached out to too.
Yeah.
Like just somebody took the care to
say, wow, I'm feeling a little, yeah.
Maybe lonely.
Or, I'm wanting some connection and
the person I want that from is you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, which is lovely and
such a nice compliment.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think it speaks to some
work in our work we need to do, Tom,
Speaker: yeah.
It's
Speaker 2: what we deserve.
Or today could be a good
Speaker: yes.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yes.
Text that person back today who you've
has had been sitting on red in your inbox
for, or not even for a week, like texting
Speaker 2: it back is one
thing, but try to enjoy it.
Or yes.
Can you try to be like,
ah, this is so nice.
Here I'm what's the delicious
Speaker: part of this?
Yeah.
This
Speaker 2: person's thinking of me.
Yes.
Like they just wanna help me,
Speaker: yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
I agree.
Are you doing well,
Speaker 2: Tom?
Speaker: Yeah.
Yes.
The answer to how they're always
doing well, the answer to how
I'm doing is things are good.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Tell him
Speaker: you don't believe me.
Paul doesn't.
Yes.
Paul.
Paul doesn't believe.
No.
I just feel like you need
Speaker 2: to be a little
bit more upset at all times.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a, I don't know if I
was more upset all the time.
I don't know if our classic dynamic
would that's it's a part of our
natural free song or whatever.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Sounds good.
All right.
Be happy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Number 24.
Like the baths, oil, sweat,
dirt, grayish water, all of it.
Disgusting.
The whole of life.
All of the visible world.
Speaker 2: This is great.
Speaker: He doesn't like the baths.
I think there was, we've heard
about, I think he's had at least
one prior objection to the baths.
He really doesn't
Speaker 2: like baths.
Speaker: Oil, sweat, dirt,
grayish water, all of it.
Disgusting.
Speaker 2: I love the li the next line.
The whole of life.
Of life.
All of whole world, invisible
world is disgusting.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker 2: What is this entry?
Speaker: Yeah.
It,
Speaker 2: he just,
Speaker: he's, he hates the world.
Yeah.
Geez.
Yeah.
He doesn't like the bath.
We got that.
He's A
Speaker 2: cat don't like it.
Yeah.
He's the whole of life, all of the,
this is him being so depressed.
Speaker: Yes.
Okay.
I'm, it's giving me some more
support for my more negative reading
of some of the earlier entries.
'cause it seems That's true.
This one reads like I'm in a bad mood.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Speaker: Yeah I'm interpreting
this a little bit.
I have something in my throat.
Oh.
Speaker 2: Drink some water?
Yeah,
Speaker: Yeah.
Okay.
I think I'm okay.
I'm interpreting man my throat.
Speaker 2: Oh, dumb.
Okay.
Can't take speech for granted.
Yeah, I'm surprised.
Okay.
I don't know.
I'm surprised the emperor has to
deal with grayish water in his bath,
Speaker: I'm interpreting this
as communal baths, like Yeah, it
Speaker 2: must be.
He doesn't get his own bath.
Speaker: I think the, or I'm no historian.
I'm sure he gets his own bath
if he wants to get his own bath.
But there's also the whole like
social, you go to the baths
and the Romans are in there.
Planning the future of
the grapes and stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And planning the future
of the empire or whatever.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Planning the
Speaker: future, I don't know.
Something like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But he finds it gross.
The other thing I guess that
comes to mind for me, yeah.
He's he's listed these things that make
the bath gross, and it's a mixture of both
human stuff, but also just natural world,
like oil and sweater from the humans, but
also dirt and grayish water is just yeah.
Yeah.
So he's saying it's,
you can look around at the world and see.
All of this humans are gross and negative
if you wanna look at them that way.
And the natural world is
gross and disgusting if you
wanted to see it that way.
And yes, one, one way of looking at
the world is it's all just a big big
mixture of all these gross things.
He's not guiding us away from
that thought at all in this entry.
No, but I feel like there's some,
you have to read it or whatever.
I have to read it as having
some kind of this is just an
optional way of viewing the world.
A reminder that it's all basically gross.
Speaker 2: The word visible
is what stuck out to me.
It's like there's the invisible world and
then there's the invisible world, which
is all about morality and magnificent.
And
Speaker: so the implication
is that the goodness exists
there in the invisible world.
Yeah.
Of the visible world is gross.
Speaker 2: It might not at all
be what he meant, but yeah.
It might make us the whole of life.
Speaker: Yeah.
A
Speaker 2: full of life.
Yeah.
Speaker: It is also just the kind of
entry that he does periodically where it's
Speaker 2: yeah, just
Speaker: convince yourself that
the world sucks and then you won't
be so emotionally attached to it.
And yeah, it won't feel
so hard to give it up.
Yeah, that's closer to how I, that's
basically the sense I'm making of it.
Speaker 2: Last one.
Speaker: The, I actually
it think it's long.
Maybe we save, we only have it, I think.
I think maybe we save it and
start with this one next time.
I think it looks
Speaker 2: juicy.
It's got a, it looks really juicy.
Speaker: Yes.
Okay.
Our listeners can be excited.
I am gonna have to start next
episode reading a huge number of
Roman names or possibly Greek names.
Yeah.
I'm gonna, I'm dreading some of
these pronunciations already.
Speaker 2: I think they're all
about divorce, so get ready,
Speaker: divorce.
Oh, fascinating.
Those
Speaker 2: are, those are, I think
those are emperors and their wives.
Speaker: Oh, I see.
Okay.
Wow.
What a teaser.
We never do this.
What a teaser for the next episode, A big
entry about Roman emperors divorcing their
wives to kick us off in our next episode.
All right, see you then listener.
Bye.
Bye.