Defining Hospitality

How will AI, biometrics, and healthcare thinking redefine hospitality, and what does the future of truly personalized guest experience look like?

In this episode, Dan Ryan sits down with John Duffield, a Speaker at Signal Two and an Advisory Board Member at Radical Innovation. They have a wide-ranging conversation on the intersection of hospitality, healthcare, and emerging technology. Drawing from his patient experience at Cleveland Clinic and his work at the forefront of AI and biometric innovation, John introduces the concept of “living intelligence,” the convergence of AI, sensors, and biometrics that enables environments to adapt in real time to how guests actually feel.

Takeaways:
  • Hospitality and healthcare are deeply connected. Both industries serve people during vulnerable moments, and both succeed when personalization, empathy, and care are prioritized. 
  • AI combined with biometrics and sensors can create environments that adapt in real time, adjusting lighting, temperature, nutrition, and schedules based on how guests are actually feeling, not static preferences.
  • Guests are willing to share personal and biometric data when the value exchange is clear, immediate, and user-controlled. Privacy must be transparent, opt-in, and flexible, more like “airplane mode” than all-or-nothing consent.
  • Smaller scale, faster decision-making, and closer guest relationships make independents and luxury properties ideal testing grounds for advanced technology, insights that will eventually scale to larger brands.
  • The best tech disappears into the experience, enhancing how guests feel without being noticed. Responsible AI development, clear guardrails, and human-centered design are essential to avoid repeating past digital mistakes.

Quote of the Show:
“Do you want to sit in the status quo and hope that you just survive and thrive? Or do you want to lean into what's next in this next phase of guest experience?" - John Duffield

Links:

Shout Outs:

🏨✨ Defining Hospitality is Sponsored by Berman Falk https://www.bermanfalk.com/ - Check out their impact page! 🌍🌱 https://www.bermanfalk.com/impact/ 

Ways to Tune In: 

Creators and Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Gabby Aloisi

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - John Duffield
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John Duffield: [00:00:00] in the future that the travel going experience, the guest experience is, is going to be more than just a, oh wow. That was a nice stay to my gosh. I actually can. Feel and have a, have a numeric number on how well I came out of that guest experience and how well I came out of that travel experience to help get me to where I'm going next.

Intro: What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

Sponsor: This podcast is sponsored by Berman Fall Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in [00:01:00] custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms.

Dan Ryan: Today's guest is a founder, entrepreneur, technology leader, speaker, and two time open heart surgery survivor. He speaks on his health journey, technology and the future of hospitality, and has presented at events like B-D-N-Y-A-T-M Dubai, which is the Arabian Travel Market, Dubai Novartis, US, and AI deciphered as a two-time open heart surgery survivor.

He is a strong voice for patients and technology in healthcare. He also created the widely used hospitality platform guest anywhere, and he is a speaker and an advisory board member at Radical Innovation. Ladies and gentlemen, John Duffield. Welcome John.

John Duffield: Hi, Dan. Thank you so much. Great to be here.

Dan Ryan: it's wonderful to have you on, first of all, as a fellow Nutmegger. For those of you that don't know, we live like four miles from each other in the great small but mighty state of Connecticut. But also, um, the roundabout way [00:02:00] that we met was at radical innovation and also outside of that was Larry Traxler, I believe, and Missy Goldstein for, uh, kind of pushing us together, corralling us together to talk.

And I think it's a testament to the fact that we should always do things that make us uncomfortable. And I, for the past two years, I've been MCing the radical innovation event in New York City and just being around that and, and as like a crucible for meeting more people and colli and colliding with people like.

I don't think I would've ever met you. Well, I probably would've heard you or seen you speak somewhere, but like, I'm so glad that not only did we meet as advisory board members at Radical and At Radical, but we have these other friends that support radical and, and fixtures in our industry that kind of brought us together to this moment.

And so that's just get outta your comfort zone everyone, and try new things.

John Duffield: A hundred

Dan Ryan: What are your thoughts on that, John?

John Duffield: [00:03:00] Well, the first time I think we met Dan, it was minutes if not a minute, from you walking on stage to start the hosting. So Missy was kind enough to introduce us, and then it was a, a quick, uh, 22nd exchange. And then off, off you were, but I'm, I'm glad we ran into each other in walking the, the vast halls of the Javit Center, New York for V-D-N-Y-A few weeks, a month ago perhaps.

Dan Ryan: Yes. Well, right before game time were, were my hands visibly shaking or were, could you see the sweat pouring out from my underarms?

John Duffield: You were, I just, you were just this, you were decked out in the whole outfit. You were ready to rock, you were micd up, and it was almost like a, a hello, but I've gotta walk on stage in minutes, can in seconds, can we, uh, make sure we connect? We hadn't even made the connection of being local Connecticut boys, even at that point. It was so quick.

Dan Ryan: Yeah, it was, uh, it's, I was wearing the one suit I own, so, uh, yeah. Thanks. Thanks for noticing my awesome outfit. Um, so anyway, needless to say, we're part of this [00:04:00] wonderful, vibrant community of hospitality, hospitality design. I actually haven't spoken to very many technology folks on the podcast, mostly because I don't understand it.

Secondly, I kind of find it boring. But thirdly, and why we're here together is your story and just all the people that kind of pushed us together is pretty amazing. And technology. I still might not understand it. From what I hear from you and what you've told me, it's definitely not boring. And before we get into all of that, how do you define hospitality?

And then tell us,

John Duffield: How do I define hospitality? Well, to me it is, it is feeling at home wherever you are in the simplest form. I mean, that's, that's what I think. And I mean, as a, as a tech innovation guy, I have to say that, um, tech technology, helping, helping enrich the guest experience in like an invisible tech [00:05:00] way.

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Duffield: Ways technology should be boring, like you said, Dan, because. The experience and the memorability and the personalization should all feel like the brand and the property delivered that it shouldn't feel like tech delivered that. So tech should stay boring in, in many ways,

Dan Ryan: I agree. And actually, so I want to, I wanna recalibrate there.

John Duffield: how I did?

Dan Ryan: Yes. Because what I will say is tech to me is boring because when it's done well. You don't experience. It's like signage, right? Signage at a hotel or at an airport. You only notice when it's like you lose your way finding, right? And therefore, I know so much goes into technology on the backend to make it seamless, but when you think of like from your health scares, having two open heart surgeries, um, to how you've and all of your technology background that you brought into that experience, and now you're saying this experience within hospitality and just [00:06:00] life in general could be so much better if frictionlessly, I don't even know if that's a word, can be tech enabled that, I don't know, there's so many bells and whistles that can happen and just help on a healing journey.

Help on just a travel journey. Like walk us through where your thinking is on the state of technology now, and based on your lived experience, where do you see it going in the future?

John Duffield: Yes, happy to. And let me, let me give a little bit more insight into the kind of heart, heart health journey because, uh, You know, as someone that balances tech and innovation in both the travel hospitality and the healthcare space, um, I did have a chance to be a patient, uh, a year and a half ago, which I'm still on the very edge of recovery for now. Certainly didn't plan on being a case study or experiencing life on the inside from the patient experience, but I did by purely by chance, we, we, we identified a heart condition and, uh, with more investigation, realized it was [00:07:00] worse than we had thought, and I needed to have all full open heart surgery. I did that uh, had a, a great surgeon.

I went to the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio. Amazing brand experience as a marketer, as a brand marketing, tech guy going into a major leading center like that, you can't help but notice the entire journey. And, uh, anyhow, um, had some complications. They had to go in and do the whole thing all over again after they'd closed me up with wires, plates, and screws 20 days later, which is pretty brutal.

Dan, I, I, I realized that, You know, having lived the patient experience while also. Like most of us, many of us living the guest experience when we're traveling. For me, there's this kind of, there's this wonderful, beautiful intersection of commonality between the two in my mind. Whether you are laying your head in a luxury suite as a, as a resort or hotel guest, or laying your head in a hospital bed, in a hospital [00:08:00] facility recovering from something significant, your stay should be memorable, personalized, um, and, and really cater to, to your unique individual needs.

And I think we're at a point in time now with technology of the most recent technology in the kind of AI explosion that can really help connect Alon of tech things that were out there doing things but not in a kind of living, breathing way. So I think there's a, a really interesting opportunity.

In fact, I'm convinced. There's an amazing opportunity for, You know, progressive forward thinking owners and designers and builders that really want to the role technology plays in the guest experience, uh, for, for projects coming down the pike because there's a hell of Alon of ways that tech can be thought of as a main stakeholder in the journey now, but

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Duffield: behind the scenes.

Dan Ryan: I haven't, thank God I haven't been to very many hospitals. Um, [00:09:00] but of the ones that I've. Been to Mayo Clinic, I haven't been to Cleveland Clinic. Um, Memorial Sloan Kettering, like these are top, top top hospitals in the country. And I do think that they are paying attention to the role of hospitality design and borrowing from that.

And also, I would even say not even leaving technology as a separate entity, it's almost weaving that into the hospitality design, right? So I think in those few, in those handfuls of hospitals that I've been to, there really is an effort. Once you get past all the machines that go being, that you need for life safety, there is an effort to in, to weave better design, which I personally think can promote healing.

But I do think the vast majority of hospitals have not, whether for budget reasons or just lack of vision have not incorporated these elements of hospitality design and how [00:10:00] that technology can enable that. What are your thoughts on that as far as design interweaving technology, but to help promote healing?

John Duffield: Well, I think it's, there's a new intersection point coming up where we know wellness has always played a, a large role in hospitality, especially over the last, over the last five, seven years. It's really come back in, in, in full force, right? And so as a role, as a result of that hospitality's taking. More notice of, of the healthcare experience and the, the patient journey, which is ultimately caring for people in, in need in some very, You know, trying moments of their lifetime. Um, and I remember for me, noticing everything

Dan Ryan: I.

John Duffield: the, uh, patient going

experience alongside my journey. And by the way, we must, we cannot leave out our. Our, our local, incredibly powerful health network, Hartford Healthcare, where I spent lots of my recovery journey in. And they're definitely a [00:11:00] leading, um, institution for innovation and AI uptake. And it, when I was going through the hospital journey, I was, I was looking at every single step of that process.

Everything from, preparing, um, yourself to, to, to check in, preparing for appointments and pre-consult, preparing for the hospital, um, hotel visit. 'cause the Cleveland Clinic, they have several hotels that are connected to the facility. One literally physically connected is literally a walkway to get to the, the property there.

And, um, it's, there's a concierge service where you call and arrange your travel ahead of time. They send out a car, they send a vehicle to pick you up at the airport to provide you and your family pretty much luxury transportation from the airport to the Cleveland Clinic. It's all part of the experience.

And so that's definitely taken a nod from hospitality, right? 'cause that would never have the idea of getting transport included and, and accommodations through a [00:12:00] concierge service to help you get patient rates at these Facility Rockstars. I

Dan Ryan: When, when that car picks you up, are you doing like patient intake forms along the way as well

or no?

John Duffield: well they've been done

already on the phone in the lead up to that day.

So it, it's

all digitized.

They

know you are coming. And so, You know, some, some leading hospitals too on the East coast, uh, New York Presbyterian for example, they have, they give you RFID enabled bracelets as a patient when you first come in, they know how you are moving through the facility.

And one of the most, not to get too deep in the hos, the healthcare side of things, but I think there's some wonderful parallels. The I the idea of when you have a complex condition, let's take oncology for example, a cancer, um, you often have to meet many different medical experts, many different specialists during the course of a, a, a visit to a facility.

So the idea of what they call a multidisciplinary, um, care program where you're seen by many facility, uh, sorry, experts together, um, [00:13:00] it knows where you are moving through the facility and it prepares those multidisciplinary specialists to be aware of your incoming trajectory and where you are headed and things to arrange that meeting at the optimal time because it is like teeth, trying to get these experts on their busy schedules together to see you at the right time.

So that problem friction point of having multiple different specialists with extremely heavy schedules trying to get together to meet a patient, to solve that by bringing in technology to make them aware of where you are and align schedules And so. There's definitely some wonderful parallels. You know, think about when you are booking travel or when you have booked travel, when you are, You know, checking in ahead of time prior to coming to your stay.

Maybe some of your preferences, maybe some of your previous guest history, et cetera, is recorded and maybe they know that you enjoy champagne, you enjoy your welcome cocktail, you enjoy scheduling time [00:14:00] in, in, in the wellness Facility, Rockstars. So Alon of these things can come together knowing when you are coming in.

So I think one thing that excites me most is, is the, the power of the data that the guest holds about themself with their Apple Watch or with their mobile device. I don't think we've truly recognized the potential that can provide if there is

Dan Ryan: Yeah. Okay. So aside from the Yeah.

Okay. So aside from the, the opt-in strategy, which it could get creepy, right, especially with all the wearables and all the information that, that they have. But aside from that, like let's just say if that opt-in is done well from, imagine for all the architects and designers and owner developers and I guess even management companies that are listening to this, um, how do you envision all of that technology from iPad to wearables if done well, [00:15:00] walking through that guest, into the hotel, into the built environment, and then thinking about what kind of things can it change frictionlessly seamlessly to improve your stay and promote this sense of, of wellness?

Like where's, where's your thinking going on that?

John Duffield: uh, a big. Intersection. A big mega trend that is coming in my mind that, um, was first identified by one of my favorite futurists, Amy Webb. Uh, she's a regular headline actor at South by Southwest. So I'm always at these, You know, not only hospitality events and healthcare events, but pure tech and culture events and music film intersection.

Anyway, she comes on and she this mega trend, which I feel, and I've been adapting to the hospitality travel lens, which is the concept of living intelligence. It's my new favorite trend or, um, You know, I guess that where that are converging. Dan, and this is one of my favorites and I unpack this at BDNY, [00:16:00] um, on, on day two in my talk.

And, uh, it's the idea of artificial intelligence sensors And IOT devices and biometrics

or

biotechnology.

Dan Ryan: And just so everyone has IOT, internet of Things, those are all the tech enabled from washing machines to TVs to whatever you might find in a guest room or in a,

in a hotel. An iron.

Yeah.

John Duffield: that are in

detecting, having lights come on automatically. Sensors that come in when you finish the bathroom. Sensors that identify, You know, volumes of people coming in, sensors that identify the elevators moving up and down, sensors that, um, of these sensors that are around the place, um, they've been out there collecting data and really they're just detecting movement.

And if there's movement, they react, movement, they react, they're triggered by physical presence, but I think they don't, they don't learn, they don't [00:17:00] adapt. You know, we think about building automation and there's some smart behind the scenes. Um, AI enabled, You know, um, systems that are identifying what are the, what are the, the, the energy needs and power consumptions of properties, um, uh, water consumption, uh, electronics, uh, You know, lights in rooms.

All of these things are already existing. But I think the beauty of big new components to that ai, which is really understanding these reams of data that we've been collecting as properties, as these smart properties. For so long, we've been banking on those, collecting them, and we look at that data for trends and, You know, maintenance reports and power consumptions and identifying, um, large foot traffic or high, You know, uh, capacity identifiers, um, that influences the RevPAR revenue per available room, all of that. But now. we're seeing, and there's a couple of places that are piloting some things here. The concept of living [00:18:00] intelligence is the data the guest brings in. So this is where you said it gets a little bit creepy. So

imagine if you

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

John Duffield: or whoop device or the aura ring say, um, it's tracking your biometrics, right? You know, it's tracking your heart rate, body temperature, uh, number of steps, recovery, circadian rhythms, like as a traveler when I'm traveling. Half the time I show up to a place exhausted, You know, dehydrated, say, and I'm, I'm ready to relax, or I'm starving, I'm ready for food. Imagine if I opted in to share some biometrics from my health wearable and, there's the right privacy, the right [00:19:00] security practices in place, and the right value exchange, right?

'cause we're not gonna give this up for no reason. Then all of a sudden the property starts to around my unique needs. It knows when I show up, if I am excited, exhausted, or ready to rock, it can adjust lighting, Uh, the bar can be triggered to prepare hydration for John Duffield coming in. Um, it knows how to set the temperature of the room. It knows if I'm running hot or not. It knows if the next morning after waking up. How my sleep was. It automatically pushes back the wellness bookings that I have set for that next day. 'cause it knows I need some more recovery. Maybe after I recovered from a workout with a trainer in the wellness facility that I didn't recover quite as well.

So the chefs might get a trigger in the kitchen to prepare meals with higher protein the next [00:20:00] day, things like this. So all of a sudden we're getting a property experience that understands the what, not just whether I'm moving past a sensor, but the fact that it's collecting my whereabouts through the venue, literally how I'm

feeling, and

is adapting

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Duffield: to

give me a better

recovery and a better experience.

That in a nutshell is the concept of living intelligence applied to the travel going experience that I'm watching

closely to see

how

that could play out.

Dan Ryan: So as you're talking, I'm thinking about innovation that's occurred in hospitality since I've been in with like the past 25 or 30 years, and I would even say. It's actually kind of embarrassing. So even I would say perhaps the past 50 years, I'd like to give a shout out to Barry Sternick in 1999 or something, he came up with the heavenly bed, right?

And arguably, and it's so weird that that could be innovative because you spend it most of your time in a room [00:21:00] sleeping, right? So why was it that in 1999 some hotelier decided, oh, You know what? Let's really focus and spend Alon of money on the bed and tell a story about that.

The reason why I share that is

technology from all the anecdotal stuff that I hear from Diff talking to different owners and and man and management companies, the hospitality industry is always late to adopt the latest and the greatest tech.

And there's so much incredible technology out there that could make the guest experience that much better and the ownership of a hotel that much more. Enjoyable because like you could just, the amount of visibility and transparency just from PNLs to balance sheets, to like really getting granules on information. It's all there,

but much in the same way that the heavenly bed was like one of the most innovative things that's happened in hospitality in 25 years. There's just this lag for adoption [00:22:00] and I'm curious about what your take on that lag is. Like why,

number one and then number two, like aside from whatever the, why the lag exists, if you were to have a magic wand and budget aada adaptation opt-ins weren't an option.

Like what's that end vision that you see that techno, how can technology improve the guest experience

by leaps and bounds?

John Duffield: Well, I think, I think part of that laggard maybe has a lot to do with in some ways why healthcare has a reputation for that too. Or, or, or the care system, the health system in hospitals, I guess is because I think the thought is that people are gonna always need a place to stay. People are gonna always need to travel and, and, and, and sleep in other places.

Um, and there's always going to be sick people and patients and, and, and people in hospital beds. So I think there was a, You know, how much do we truly have to do, because we're always [00:23:00] gonna get those repeat customers. But now that's just. You know, certainly just not, it's not good enough. Um, You know, I think loyalty came in because of points and discounts and trying to get people in, but I think the role technology can play when fully integrated properly.

And, and not only you're smart, but alive and responding to the guest. I think loyalty is due for a rebirth. Dan? I, I think there's, I think there's new opportunity to really help, um, attract repeat visitors purely because they don't just walk away with a, oh, that was a nice stay. They literally walk away with data to show how much they've improved their, their, their, their physical being after, after their sta I think there's, there's a play there.

Um, I think ultimately if I was to wave the magic wand, it was, it would be to help, a lot of the key folks, uh, that are driving new, new projects and new [00:24:00] properties. The owners, the builders, the designers to think about what if, from a guest standpoint, if if the room, if, if the facility could, uh, could feel and respond when they've had a long day, could really transform the feeling that guests have so that it's, no longer just a place where a guest can stay. It's, uh, it's, it's an environment that, that, that truly cares about them. So I think what we are gonna find out is, You know, ever since the world recovered from COVID, uh, every company wants to be a, a, a wellness company or have some element of, of wellness connected to them. I, I, I think that we're evolving to a, a, a place now where. Yes, people will always want discounts and, and, and points and, and things like that, but it's also, going to be a decision based on how did I feel coming out of that last stay? What [00:25:00] did that do for my sense of uh, connection. Um, a venue is always a step to the guests or the individual's next destination or true goal, right?

But what if it helped you get there and truly elevated the way you felt coming out of it? So waving that magic wand, it's right, we've got a new construction opportunity. how we weave in the role technology can play. To truly do that, one of the things is okay, what we now have to think about is, we need a sensor strategy?

We need a strategy of where to strategically plot. and data collection moments throughout the guest going journey through all avenues of our venue because we're having guests that are coming in and saying, right, I will give you more information about me if the value exchanges is great enough.

I think that's

where we're gonna see new real new

innovation.

Dan Ryan: do you think, I know that You know, you've been talking to Alon of the bigger [00:26:00] brands and helping them kind of ideate what their next steps are, but do you think this adaptation will come as a wholesale big brand rollout, or do you think it'll come from the bottom up through independent hoteliers?

Um, to really try and iterate and make it work. And I also going. Going back to that heavenly bed reference, I spoke to,

um,

someone from Equinox Hotels a while ago. You know, the gym, they did a, I think they have a hotel, they might have more coming, but they were really focusing on the restorative elements of sleep as well.

Not just from the mattress, but lighting, um, the shear at the window, like how how all of that works to help you A, go to sleep, but B, sleep well and c just be rejuvenated. But I, they're working on some pretty cool, innovative things that, again, I just think that there's just not Alon of innovation [00:27:00] from a technological or biometric, or I don't even have the words for it, a health and wellness perspective in our industry.

John Duffield: There isn't much. It will come Dan, because Alon of these, like you talk about, You know, the wearables, the what they're happening in

closed ecosystems,

Dan Ryan: I.

John Duffield: the, the, we're getting results on our app of how we are feeling great and we're very protective of that data and that makes sense. But I recently came across some, some pretty amazing statistics that talk, talked about the willingness to share. uh, that data and where that kind of, uh, what that can, can lead to, because there's Alon of studies in, in healthcare side of things, we found 94% of of patients would be willing to share Alon of the data from here if it helps their doctor provide better

care. Right.

Dan Ryan: Right,

but then there's a firewall between the doctor and those things. Like look, I think if anyone really wanted to dig too deeply into me, they can. They can fucking do it. Like it's not hard. But I don't know. [00:28:00] I guess that whole HIPAA thing, I understand it, but I also find it as a major roadblock as well.

It's like we could have real time health monitoring in our homes, in our hotels, in our cars. I would be okay sharing that. But I know that there is a fear by Alon of people and mostly of the government knowing too much. But we all, it reminds me, okay, this is crazy. I watched the 60 minutes, years and years and years ago there was this POW, uh, no.

Yeah, he was a POW or a, um, I don't know. Or maybe he was a deserter from the United States Army during the Korean War, and he went into North Korea

and 60 Minutes, interviewed him in his room, in his like apartment with his family. And there was like a little loudspeaker box like would be in our elementary schools that you couldn't turn the volume all the way off.

It always was something from the great leader. And I remember watching that and thinking, oh my God, that's so messed up. Like how could [00:29:00] anyone submit themselves or subject themselves to that? But.

Fast forward 50 years, we're all doing it through our watches, our phones, our browsing history, we we're all opting in anyway, and it's, it's even more targeted to all of us to like, I don't know, hack our brains and, and have us buy something at a certain moment.

So I just don't know why there's, it's almost like pretend firewalls exist.

John Duffield: Well, look, the privacy is, it's, it's, it's real. And people should be in control much as, just as much as we can set our phone to airplane mode with one dial. I mean, we should be able to turn things off and on and have full control of our data. Don't forget, Dan, like the, the gen alpha population. The gen alpha, anyone born from 2010 onwards is now 24% of global population. They are not just, um, the smartphone, uh, generation of swiping. They are the AI native generation. Okay? So they're gonna [00:30:00] expect full control and agency over all elements of their lives and their interactions with companies and businesses and brands and institutions. And so I think there's gonna be a, a, a rebirth of, of that.

But the value exchange has to be there. There was a study that BC, G and Google did where they found 90% of. Consumers are willing to share personal

data if the right value exchange is

there. so we

have to

make sure it improves

Dan Ryan: Okay, so let's, so let's dig into that. What is

in this dream state, what is that value exchange, right? How do you, what is that value exchange and how do you get the populace, whether Gen Alpha or before or anyone to like recognize what that is and then submit.

John Duffield: while it's gonna take, it's gonna take Alon of research and test and learning and experimentation. And what I don't find happening enough is co-creation with users. On the healthcare side, I talk about [00:31:00] how can we possibly architect the future of the patient experience without bringing in patients new, young, old into the center to help co-create the systems that will be. Available to them. The same thing needs to happen with, with hospitality. More of that. So I think, uh, you asked earlier, is it gonna be the big brands, You know, the giants coming in. I think the boutiques, the independents have a real advantage here because they have You know, a, a smaller pool. I think they can do some real quality of experimentation and pilots, um, and have, uh, say closer connection opportunities with, with their guests to be involved in some of that. I think it's gonna intake, um, Alon of monitoring of, of, of signals and trends and data of where the world's moving in terms of expectations of brands and interactions and companies and some really thoughtful. Identification of friction points and opportunities in that guess going experience. 'cause I think for [00:32:00] me it's gonna end up to a point where, You know, it will, I think loyalty, as I said, is, is truly ready for a rebirth.

Maybe it's being commoditized a little bit. Maybe we've fallen into some of the traps of what we're seeing in the airline industry. Uh, You know, I think it's, uh, I think there's a real exciting new tailwinds that are coming to us and headwinds that are coming to us, uh, with, You know, how we're truly re-imagining and all of this.

And I think the role that the, the guest will play will be, they'll have much more control over the intricate the intricacies of their, of

their

experience.

Sponsor: Hey, everybody. We've been doing this podcast for over three years now, and one of the themes that consistently comes up is sustainability, and I'm just really proud to announce that our sponsor, Berman Fall Hospitality Group is the first within our hospitality industry to switch to sustainable and recyclable packaging, eliminating the use of styrofoam.

Please check out their impact page in the show notes for more [00:33:00] info.

Dan Ryan: So as you're speaking, my mind just went to Alon of these, uh, branded, not in the sense of the hotel brands, but whether it's an LVMH or uh, an a car company where the people are, and it's happening more and more. They're having these kind of branded, lived in experiences as a hotel. Right. And to me, I don't know why that hasn't been more adopt, more widely adopted, because if you think about it, it's the ultimate brand immersion, right?

'cause you're breathing their air, you're seeing, it's like you're completely encapsulated and whatever that brand is trying to convince as a, as a product, right? A lifestyle product. And as I'm thinking about that, I'm, I'm like. Why doesn't Apple or someone like that who has access to this and tight security, and they have the balance sheet to just be like, let You know what?

Let's do an Apple [00:34:00] hotel in San Francisco where there's so many fan boys and girls to Apple products that I bet you they could keep north of a 90% occupancy and also have this be like a lived in lab. Actually, I know someone at Apple that does kind of on the design stuff that I need to ask them why they haven't done this yet, but it seems to me like a slam dunk as far as a laboratory to figure out how to make this seamless. So let's pretend Apple were to do it. Let's say you're standing in front of whoever it is at Apple. What's your pitch to them?

John Duffield: oh, interesting. Pitch challenge. Well, much in the same way that, um. Steve Jobs was able to sway, uh, a big time executive from, from Pepsi. I dunno if you remember this, Dan, when he said, You know, do you want to sell sugar water for the rest of your life? Or do you wanna come and change the world? That's what he said to him. And that's what got him to, to join Apple and help create some of these world changing [00:35:00] products. But if I was in front of Apple, it would be that, You know, they're living on a mountain of, of user data. They create the, the, the, the Sleekest most widely adopted products on the face of this earth. Um, and and what's something that, that, that, that, that people are gonna never stop doing that is, that is traveling.

So an intersection point there where there, where we could totally reimagine what that kind of looks like. Uh, do you want to, something like that. Do you want to come in and, and change And and, and play a role in the future of travel? And you wanna see how your products can literally integrate in every step? I

have to that a

couple of

times, but that's where I'd go initially.

Dan Ryan: but it's also that idea of thinking differently. And also, I'm sure maybe they do this in their, in their campus, that big spaceship building in Cupertino. I, well actually, I don't know if, if the employees would submit to that, but like, I'm sure that there is an army of fan boys and girls that would, that [00:36:00] would go stay in this hotel and be like, let's change the world.

Because I think the data and, and and being able to, I don't know, just ha have all that telemetry of people eating, sleeping, working out,

be being restored.

I bet you some really good stuff. Could come out of that, that I just, I can't even imagine what it would be. But they, they have the ability to do it.

And they have also this, this, um, brand promise of security or, or, um, I don't, I don't know. I don't even know that the word is, like, your information is safe with them. Right.

John Duffield: Yeah, well, You know, we're seeing, um, some early, early pilot attempts in this area, like SHA wellness, um, I think they're in Spain, Alante, Spain. Uh, I talked about that case study, uh, during my BDNY talk. They partnered with, uh, whoop the, uh, the fitness band, whoop, and they've integrated, um. Uh, their their [00:37:00] pilot cohort with guests that are, uh, integrating their data, opting in with their data, um, they're seeing that, 'cause they're very much focused on kind of the, the, the wellness and longevity experience.

So they're, they're, they're sinking that all the way through and, You know, they're kind of redefining what, what wellness means for them. They're looking at how their guests are recovering, uh, how their sleep is, and they're really trying to kind of scale that up. And what they're finding is that some of the pivots they're making during their guests stay based on their biometric data. Uh, kind of touched on that before. You know, they have a series of, um, longevity visits, clinician visits, uh, fitness visits throughout their stay. It's like a, a two week retreat or 10 day retreat. They're kind of planning and they're doing some dynamic adjustments based on, You know, how their guests are feeling during their stay. Uh, they're planning their fitness routines based on their health, sleep, and recovery. So if they [00:38:00] don't sleep well, like I mentioned, the hotel is pushing out, uh, their gym sessions till like later in the day. Um, they're sending live signals to the kitchen for their chef prepared meals to add certain nutrients and, and, and proteins to help with their recovery based on how they're performing, et cetera.

So they're doing some really interesting studies. So I think Alon of these kind of future forward concepts often do start at high end luxury, right? Because they have, You know, the budgets and, and, and the interest of, um, of certain guests and population types to partake in this. And so I think what we're gonna find is some of the, the data and, and the insights that come from those experiments will ultimately start to trickle down into some, some, uh, uh, smaller scale pilot experiments that can be done.

You know, we talked about the beds, for example. Um, smart Bed. Oh, You know, you can adjust. The temperature ahead of time. You know, I always run hot, so I like to stay cool. My wife always runs cool. She, she likes to, likes to be, be, be, be heated, [00:39:00] Alon with the in the bed. So, I mean, instead of just you setting it automatically and then hoping it gets you right and you don't wake up in the night in like a cold sweat because you're set it too high or you set it too cold, um, it can keep live, it can keep updated live for the optimal sleep experience.

So I think again, are moving from smart experiences to what I'd like to call, uh, sentient experiences that are more kind of alive and responding in real time. So I think there's Alon too when it comes to, okay, you've got, you've got these devices and sensors around the property and now you can actually integrate them from a operation standpoint to look at how you can adjust, um. use to, to match occupancy in, in real time. Um, operations, uh, forecast f and b needs, not just by volume of guests coming in, but also, um, the eating patterns of [00:40:00] guests. You know, the things that we're collecting from their biometrics to help, You know, minimize food production waste, things like that.

Uh, maintenance is no longer responding to, uh, when people see a broken chair leg or something. There are sensors that understand vibration and material surfacings, microscopic sensors that are detecting that and prompting, um, uh, repair replacements and things like that. So everything from, from the way you book to the way you experience your state, to the way the property responds to you, to all the, the post-marketing materials that come afterwards, it will all be connected and much more personalized, not because. Your preferences were saved, but because the data collected along the way in real time is literally making smart recommendations on,

on on,

on how

to make things

just

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Duffield: And I

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Duffield: where we're

gonna

head.

Dan Ryan: So I also, as we're talking and just riffing on this, I also appreciate [00:41:00] that you think that the independent. Luxury and lifestyle brands may be the first to adopt because I also will say that the big brands, as they've really focused and bifurcated their businesses between luxury and lifestyle and, and everything else.

I read somewhere or heard on a quarterly call that while the big brands, 10% of the rooms of the room count is luxury and lifestyle, they contribute 20% of the total earnings or profit to the big brands, which is outsize performance. That's why they're kind of bifurcating and treating and having a different strategy around those.

And then going back to Apple, I think Apple or like iPhones account for 20% of the global phone sales. I'm not an expert here, I, but I think it's a very small amount of total smartphone sales. 'cause it's like the ultimate luxury product, right?

But I think 80 to 90% of the profits globally from all iPhone, from [00:42:00] all phones.

Mobile phones go to Apple. Right. So it seems to me like there might be, I know I've heard you say intersection, but just thinking about that, whether a big brand says, Hey Apple, let's pilot this, or Apple does their own thing, I don't know. I think that that could be really incredible and, and seamless and, and it gets us one step closer to that Star Trek future.

John Duffield: well we're, we're starting this. We're, we're seeing some, You know. Fun, interesting partnerships, right? In the world of, of business, we're seeing, um, seeing things that aren't supposed to go together. We're seeing

Snoop

Dogg and Martha Stewart

and

Dan Ryan: Yes. Love that.

John Duffield: that went

together, and how

how they really leveraged that. You know, we're seeing, um, You know, we're seeing influencer partnerships. We're seeing, um, all the cool things Hilton did with Paris Hilton, what Hilton's done with, uh, formula One. So we're seeing Alon of these interesting partnerships with, with, with people and brands. But is there, I, I think we went [00:43:00] from, we went from, know, statistics and trends that show people respond much better to personal brands rather than business or corporate brands, right?

They want to connect with real people, but is the partnership opportunity, maybe circling back to, to, to brands as well. I mean, imagine if. Imagine if, um, some, imagine if Four Seasons and, and Apple announced and did some type of partnership, what would that do to excite and create opportunity? Um, so I think maybe there is a, an intersection opportunity here with, um,

technology

or

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Duffield: innovation

and

hospitality luxury perhaps.

Because when you think of the amount of people that have these devices, I think there could be something really

interesting that could come

from that maybe.

Dan Ryan: you're having a ton of talks with people about how to, um, potentially integrate all the technology that's [00:44:00] available into the guest experience. Um, what are some of the objections you're hearing from some of the, the owners, developers, brands that might not have the same shared vision as you, um, and what are they not seeing?

John Duffield: Well, I, I like to push, I like to shatter conventions. I like to, and I used to use the word disrupt Alon, but I know that can have some kind of negative connotation sometimes. But I think finding new white space is, is, is important. And finding out how to stand out in a, in a crowded space. Um, I think some of the objections I hear are, oh, that's, that's, that's not for me as a designer to think through.

That's for owners. Owners. Oh, that's not necessarily for us. That's for the architects. Uh, so I think there's sometimes a. A, um, a passing of the puck in terms of, You know, who can truly own or contribute to where, where this goes. I see that sometimes I see, um, when it [00:45:00] comes to technology playing a role, it's like, well, we've always done it this way.

I mean, guests just keep coming. Why do we need to do anything different? So I think some of those are some of the objections that I see, You know, and I always like to ask, well, I mean, do you, do you wanna sit in status quo and hope that you just survive and thrive? Or do you wanna lean into what's next and take signals from other industries and, and take signals of where, um, general consumer trends are, are heading and, and, and think through, You know, how do you maintain, um, a leadership role in this next phase of, of guest experience in the new role that technology plays in the new demand demands of the. You know, 20, 25, 20 26, 7, 8, consumer, um, where do you wanna be? And so I think that opens some doors to conversations. And so, and then obviously those that come to the likes of these leading edge conferences like it at BDNY and, uh, um, ATM Dubai, the largest global travel show, [00:46:00] people on the bleeding edge want to know what's coming. wanna see around corners. And I think as we start to unfold the opportunity of, of where technology and guests intersect, people want to know. And so it takes folks that are bold, that wanna shatter conventions and want to take initial steps and think through, all right, how can this affect my property, my portfolio, my brand, and what do I need to do to

truly

continue to win hearts and

minds?

Dan Ryan: One of the, one of the areas where I've seen technology kind of make an unpleasant experience more pleasant, but they're not really tapping into, I don't know, wearables and, and ev each individual, because it's kind of like being on a bus is, um, on the Boeing 7 87, You know, they, they experimented with using new materiality.

So I think it's all composite so they can have more humidity going through the plane. So it's not, you don't get like, so dried out.

The lighting is totally different and,

and,

and [00:47:00] replicates what

the sunrise or sunset or bright day is to help you get more used to, um, the jet lag. The windows are totally different, but I just find when I fly, fly those planes on a long haul that I just feel better at the end of it.

And it's probably all these things that I just don't, I don't, I'm not even aware. Of what they are. And I guess that goes back to the beginning of our conversation when technology, I think is best when it's seamless

and not felt,

and you only really notice it when it's abrupt or something goes wrong.

John Duffield: It's totally true. So funny. I love that you mentioned the 7 8, 7 Dreamliner. My favorite, favorite, plane. I actually did, I, I worked with Boeing for many years on the recruitment advertising to help find the, the next level engineers, um, and, and paint decorative painters and, and strategists that would come through to help create some of those new features that came on that plane.

So, it's so funny you mentioned that. Yeah, it is. It [00:48:00] is. It's that ambient tech. It's that those, those subtle differences that we as, as. Folks that understand this and see the impact on the experience and the feeling and, and, um, we notice that. And so it's, it's, it's, that was, for me, a tease at, to where things are going.

I think the next level of, of, of airline travel and comfort. So I think what does that mean if imagine Dan, like planes in the future are going to have these heat sensors in the seat, right? It's gonna know. gonna adjust to body temperature. If it knows, again, if your biometrics, if it understands that, You know, Dan Ryan's about to board a 7, 8, 7 Dreamliner for his flight to Chicago. Um, he's been racing through the airport. He, he's, he is to miss his flight. He, he spent too long in the luxury lounge ahead of time getting ready. He made it in, but it detected his body temperature. It's your seat in [00:49:00] number three A knows your body temperature. It is adjusting to the coolest, coldest setting.

The second you come in, Dan. 'cause it knows you're running hot. All right? And it knows your, your, your hydration, which is starving thirst. 'cause you've been sprinting. It's gonna arrange the time that you get on that your drink is gonna come and be there, ready for you, your water or your chilled

ginger

ale.

Only the way Dan

Ryan likes it.

Dan Ryan: But does it know that I'm super cheap and I probably bought a ticket in 28 B.

John Duffield: No, because it knows where you're sitting. it knows you're upfront. And if you're in 28 B, it's not gonna have your drink prepared and ready to be brought down yet. 'cause it knows everyone's gonna be backing up, putting their cases up and backing up in the line to sit down. So I think that's, that's, that's, that's the next phase we're gonna be headed into.

I think there's a real big interesting moment and it's just a matter of who's gonna be ahead of the trend and who's gonna be ready to capitalize on all the ways that we can leverage technology now. Because AI is that thread that can listen to all the data we were already connecting and can [00:50:00] respond because it's live, because the guest has opted in for the right value exchange to

connect.

Dan Ryan: that's really super interesting about Boeing. I had no idea you worked on it.

What are other

big projects like that that you've worked on and help them think differently about how they approach what the offering is to whoever's going through whatever that built environment is that that you're talking to?

John Duffield: Well, I'm actually

pushing something pretty exciting on my own at the moment, Dan, which is actually born out of my, uh, heart health journey. I've been on the last year and a half. Um, took as a guy. I was deep in artificial intelligence as I've spoken about, um, helping brands transform their experience, in both healthcare and hospitality.

And so I, I pointed that lens of AI and tech on my own patient journey in, in going through my heart surgery journey. And I realized that, gosh, I needed to [00:51:00] make sense of the, in my case, the mountain of complexity, um, associated with a major heart condition. And even though someone that's familiar with the space, I had to learn so much and it was very emotion, highly emotional journey. so I had to work out how to explain this to my children as well, what's happening with daddy's heart. So I used AI to help, um, create some models that were trained on the cardiac disease. Um. Disease, state of, uh, open heart surgery and valve repair and all these big words and Alon of crazy stuff. And so I trained an AI agent on everything I could find on, uh, heart surgery. And then I asked it if it could create a Taylor Swift inspired song so my children could understand what's happening with daddy's heart. My daughter's a big swifty, and, uh, it was purely magic. So I thought, my gosh, if I can help my own, um, sense of calm and ease of anxiety by introducing, the concept of AI to help in between my doctor visits and help me prepare questions for [00:52:00] my care team, why can't I do the same for others?

So I'm launching a project called Hearts and Algorithms intended for, uh, patients going through crazy, highly anxiety ridden journey of, of heart surgery, to give them an outlet to have an emotional conversation, um, in a patient app. help them in between visits with, with real patients. And what I'm finding is that, um, early, um, institutions, top tier institutions are quite interested in this.

I'm actively fundraising at the moment, so there's Alon of interesting things happening there in terms of taking the patient experience and helping ease their sense of anxiety and help them be more informed and cognitively aware of what they're going through ai. So I'm always trying to find a way to kind of walk a mile in the shoes of my audience, whether it's the patient, whether it's the guest, um, whether it's the, the owner, the designer, the builder, the surgeon, and really try to understand [00:53:00] what are the points of which the customer's experience can be enriched or more memorable or personalized or powerful

using

technology. That's

what

really gets me

Dan Ryan: Hmm. there's this idea of AI or machine learning it was called until a couple years ago. Right now it's artificial intelligence. Then there's this artificial general intelligence, which is like an agent that can help you do whatever, or agents that can help you. And then people get freaked out when you start talking about artificial super intelligence, where, I don't know if they be, if the machine becomes sentient or things of science fiction.

Um, as someone who is in this space and thinking about it, um, I'm not super scared of. Artificial intelligence. But as I start thinking more and going back to all the science fiction that I've read throughout my life and continue to read, this idea of artificial super intelligence gets a little gnarly. At what point [00:54:00] do you think, if any, we need to start worrying.

John Duffield: Well, we've all seen Terminator two, the media paints the picture of Terminator two and, You know, cyber dying and all this type of stuff. Um, but I look, as technology evolves, there'll always be both good actors and bad actors. And in my mind and in my heart, there's more good actors in the world than bad. And so I think, um, what we're gonna find is that there won't be a, a company, big or small, um, that isn't fully looking to integrate the beginnings of where AI can help them get more closer to the customer, uh, be more efficient, um, scale larger, um, be more, uh, there's this phrase in healthcare called the end of one, the end of one, the ultimately personalized healthcare journey. there's treatment specifically to me. And so I, I think that's where we're headed. So I think in terms of the, the, the doom and gloom side, I mean, yeah, [00:55:00] we'll see AI used, um, in some, in some pretty tough ways. You know, we're seeing, I think, the, You know, cyber crime and I think, uh, Alon of that stuff is being amplified by what AI has the potential to do, but I think we're responding as well.

So, in terms of the doom and gloom, what does that take us to? Well, knows?

Dan Ryan: I hear that people or governments and maybe companies are starting to think about and manage risk towards this artificial super intelligence that might happen. Right. Um, but in the same way that there's this artificial super intelligence potential, which would make see us as a competitor and take everybody out.

This is the doomy gloomy part. Um, I do hope that there is some kind of push amongst citizens and governments to create some kind of a treaty to

prevent that from happening. [00:56:00] But then it's always.

You know, I don't know when Frankenstein was written in 1830 something, but it's, there's always that human desire to push a little bit further, a little bit further, and you're like,

I created what,

John Duffield: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: and then

boom.

But I guess in the meantime, we should just all sleep better and heal better and just make the most of our lives.

John Duffield: Well, You know, the reality is there is, it is very much, uh, a space race at the moment. It's, it's the next space race. It is the race to acquire the most, um, the most control over the best models that can yield the greatest outputs. And many of these companies aren't even profitable yet because. Uh, the pure compute power it takes to, to, to generate Alon of this.

But I think in this space race, unfortunately, we're seeing profit over good at the moment. But I think with standards and, and [00:57:00] regulations and, uh, governments uniting, et cetera, I hope we don't create the same problem we created

with social media

Dan Ryan: Right.

John Duffield: see

now

in that

the effect it's had

on, um,

Dan Ryan: Oh my God. 'cause there's like really, and it,

there's almost no accountability, right? At least in the United States, there's no, there's no accountability. And in some ways that's not a bug. It's a feature because it kind of helps all these creators and tech bros and sisters, um, kind of pa forge an unencumbered path forward.

But I also think there's a moral hazard with that. Um, You know, speaking of open heart surgery and organ transplants and all this, I know that there's bioethics that okay, we shouldn't. Clone people or I don't even know, like now I'm way out over my skis, but you, you you can't tell me that there's not somebody in some lab somewhere, like in sub [00:58:00] subterranean, something that hasn't messed around with this kind of stuff.

John Duffield: Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, with, with everything from, gosh, gene

editing, everything

that's

Dan Ryan: Totally

John Duffield: with, crispr, all of this, it is,

um, there is an incredible amount of, You know, changing stuff going on. And I think ultimately we need to have a, uh, You know, safe and responsible approach to it and reap the benefits from it, and also hope that we can ultimately point. The compute that the largest, um, economies on earth are putting money invested in to world the world's biggest problems. I mean, we hear people talk about how can it be used to solve climate

change, poverty, world

hunger,

things like that.

Dan Ryan: energy. Yeah.

John Duffield: energy. Yeah. So the investment Alon of these main players are putting into, in terms of, uh, the next level of, of energy as well, and and, and buying up x kind of nuclear plants and

converting

them to

massive data

centers.

I mean, it is, it is a [00:59:00] race. It

Dan Ryan: Perfect. Yeah. I'm, I'm sorry, everyone

and John for going down the dark Frankenstein road. So let's, let's bring it back. We're gonna end on a positive note and say, John, as you look at everything and all the people that you're talking to and your all of your past work, what's exciting you most about the next 10 years that you see that you see happening?

Help us lamb the plane into a positive

coda.

John Duffield: Land the plane is that what we're gonna find is that, um, in, in the future that the travel going experience, the guest experience is, is going to be more than just a, oh wow. That was a nice stay to my gosh. I actually can. Feel and have a, have a numeric number on how well I came out of that guest experience and how well I came out of that travel [01:00:00] experience to help get me to where I'm going next.

Whether that was to a major keynote presentation I was giving, whether that was to take my family on a incredible stay, You know, in a, in a tropical island, or whether that was just on, on some general business travel. I can come out knowing that it was, um, it actually made me a, a better person. I actually felt better and I have a wellness score connected to that. That's powerful. I think loyalty is gonna get

a whole new

meaning,

Dan Ryan: That's it.

Loyalty is gonna get a whole new meaning because if you think about those brand moats that all the big brands have, it's their brand loyalty. That's what keeps them head and shoulders among, uh, above all the independence as far as like nights stays, dollars, everything. And if they can tie that somehow into their loyalty program,

that is pretty rad.

John Duffield: I don't think it's gonna be about points anymore, Dan.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. It'll be like me waking up every morning since my wife got an aura ring and says, what was your sleep [01:01:00] score? And she always scores in the high eighties into the mid nineties and shames me when I get my 21 or 35,

John Duffield: Now, what can you now do with that score? How do you feel?

What's different about you now?

Dan Ryan: I am gonna go stay in the new Apple Hotel and just unleash all of my information to them so that they can tailor something to me and give me a, a complete immersive program for life. Longevity. That's what I'm gonna do.

Let's go Cupertino.

John Duffield: I love it. Let's do it, Dan. Let's start a pilot.

Dan Ryan: John, if people wanted to learn more about you and everything, all the exciting things that you're up to, what's a good way for them to reach out, connect, get in touch, and hear what's going on?

John Duffield: Absolutely. I'm available on?

my website is the john duffield.com.

Um, LinkedIn

as well is the other

big one.

Dan Ryan: Perfect. We'll be sure to keep all that in the show notes. John, it's such a pleasure to meet you. Larry and Missy, thank you for pushing us together even though we were on the same advisory board, but really saying, no, you two really need to talk to each [01:02:00] other. I appreciate you all very much and I appreciate you John,

who also being a new neighbor who knew.

John Duffield: been great, Dan. Thank you for having me.

Dan Ryan: And thank you to all of our listeners. Without you, we wouldn't be having these incredible conversations with people like John and hearing what the future is all about as it pertains to hospitality, design, healing, wellness. And if you think or know anyone else who's working on a project that could benefit from some thinking on this, please pass this episode along.

Just click on the link and send it. Don't forget to like and subscribe and thank you. I appreciate all of you and we'll catch you next time.