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Rise Above: a podcast from Rogers Behavioral Health takes listeners on a journey of education and inspiration as we sit down with mental health and addiction experts and past patients who are changing how the world views mental health and addiction.
00:00:01:13 - 00:00:10:09
Andy
You're listening to Rise Above, a Rogers Behavioral Health podcast, where we sit down with Rogers experts who are changing the way the world views mental health and addiction.
00:00:23:19 - 00:00:32:21
Andy
Hello listener, thank you for taking the time out of your day to press the play button on another episode of Rise Above, a podcast from Rogers Behavioral Health.
00:00:32:22 - 00:00:53:11
Andy
We spent a lot of time on this podcast talking about mental health treatments and the journey that former patients went through when they were seeking help for their struggles. But today, we're going to talk about one of the reasons that people maybe don't seek help for mental health, and that is the stigma that surrounds it.
00:00:53:12 - 00:01:02:01
Andy
And with me today is Emily Jonesberg, program manager of Rogers Community Learning and Engagement and also an advocate for Wise initiative for stigma Elimination.
00:01:02:02 - 00:01:04:10
Andy
Emily, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:01:04:10 - 00:01:06:12
Unknown
Oh, Andy is a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
00:01:06:12 - 00:01:17:18
Andy
So I couldn't help but notice, stigma elimination was kind of in that intro right there that I just gave you. So what is stigma? Can you explain that?
00:01:17:18 - 00:01:30:20
Emily
Sure. I'll do my best. I, generally speaking, stigma is when you have a negative belief about, a collective, a group of things, or like a group of people based off of a shared identity.
00:01:31:00 - 00:01:46:19
Emily
So, for example, around mental health challenges, if you have a negative belief or attitude towards everyone with a mental health challenge or everyone with a certain diagnosis, then that would be a stigma. But there's a couple different things that go into stigma. You want me to tell you about them?
00:01:46:19 - 00:01:48:04
Andy
Yeah. Okay.
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Emily
So one piece is, if you think of different sometimes I like to think that I'm us is like a ladder.
00:01:55:00 - 00:02:17:04
Emily
And the whole ladder is stigma, but it includes different rungs of it. Right. So and one is around stereotypes. That's how it kind of starts. So those are ideas about like a group of people for example, like we were talking about. And then once you take those ideas and you internalize them and they become your beliefs, that's when it moves up the ladder to prejudice.
00:02:17:06 - 00:02:42:04
Emily
When you act on prejudice, it's when it moves into a place of discrimination. And when you're in a spot where discrimination has been infused into institutions and there's power behind it, then it can become it manifests in forms of oppression. So there's lots of different forms of oppression, unfortunately, in our world and that towards individuals with mental health challenges is one of them.
00:02:42:06 - 00:03:05:21
Unknown
And that's a lot of the work that we do through wise and through the community engagement team is trying to unearth and address stigma around folks who have mental health challenges or mental health conditions. And then there's one other part to it is that in addition to the ladder component, if you think that there's also three different, let's say, buckets that stigma can fall in.
00:03:05:23 - 00:03:32:13
Emily
You can have stigma that you see at a public level. So this is like I'm a citizen out in the world interacting, and I've got stigma towards another citizen general public. Right. And then when that stigma gets infused in institutions, like I was talking about the oppression lens that becomes institutionalized stigma. But then there's also a super important one and one we don't often talk about, which is self stigma.
00:03:33:09 - 00:03:50:18
Emily
And this is when you take those stigmatizing beliefs and you turn them inward towards yourself, because you have that identity, that you have the stigma towards. And self stigma can have a huge impact on somebody's recovery and journey towards wellbeing. So that's another piece that we talk about too.
00:03:50:18 - 00:03:57:06
Andy
Let's say that self stigma is probably what keeps people from seeking help when they need it, right?
00:03:57:09 - 00:04:23:09
Emily
100%, yeah, certainly part of the puzzle. Another part may be their fear of getting public stigma, institutional stigma projected onto that, maybe negatively impacting educational or employment opportunities or housing or impacting their social settings. But yes, definitely. Also the things that we're telling ourself in our heads and how we're holding onto these stigmatizing beliefs and applying them to ourselves definitely can impact some of these.
00:04:23:09 - 00:04:27:15
Emily
Just reaching out for help and support, access to treatment.
00:04:27:15 - 00:04:38:01
Andy
So when it comes to mental health treatment, what I mean, what is the what brings about the stigma, I guess, when it comes to mental health?
00:04:38:01 - 00:04:48:05
Emily
You know, there's a lot of misconceptions about mental health challenges and mental health conditions, and I'm using them interchangeably because folks use them out in the mental illness.
00:04:48:05 - 00:05:09:19
Emily
There's all sorts of different terms that people use, and it kind of depends on the individual and which one they prefer. Oftentimes I use mental health challenges because it's you don't necessarily have a diagnosis, but you're struggling with a component of your mental health. But then again, a mental health condition when someone has a mental health challenge, it doesn't necessarily mean that challenge is challenging in the moment, right?
00:05:09:19 - 00:05:30:01
Emily
Like, I am somebody with lived experiences who has a challenge of working through depression. My depression is not always a challenge, but on some days it is. So all that to say, how did this come to be is because these misconceptions and lack of education around what is mental health and what goes into it then perpetuates these stigmas.
00:05:30:03 - 00:05:53:13
Emily
And so, folks, there are often one that you hear is people with mental health, conditions are weaker, mentally weaker than folks that don't have it or they're more dangerous. They're not able they're not as reliable. So they're like in employment situations, folks have that come up and then they're negatively impacted in being able to access different employment opportunities.
00:05:53:15 - 00:06:29:16
Emily
And like I said, a lot of these come from just myths that are not true. Like the dangerous one, it's actually the case that folks with mental health conditions are more often the victims of violence than they are perpetuating violent behaviors. So, they just seem to come up because of ignorance that get passed down. And then when we as a society in society, we get separated over time, we are not talking about perhaps or mental health conditions, or we're isolating ourselves and interacting with others who have mental health challenges, then you don't get to see those missed being challenged because you're kind of in your own separate space.
00:06:29:17 - 00:06:35:13
Emily
So those fears live on and get passed down from generation to generation.
00:06:35:13 - 00:06:44:08
Andy
Well, and speaking of generation to generation, I have to believe mental health stigma has evolved. Indeed, how so many
00:06:44:08 - 00:07:04:14
Emily
people in lots of ways. I mean, I even just think back for my personal story. I'm in my 40s now, so if you think about 25 ish years back or more than that, when I started to first have my own struggles and then starting to try to access support around it, IT people did not want to talk about it even that.
00:07:04:18 - 00:07:33:03
Emily
Right. And it was, hard to find resources and then and hard certainly to ask for help. And in my work with young people nowadays, and just in the in the community in general, we still have a lot of opportunities for growth, certainly. But it does seem like there's a little bit more comfort and, talking about it and a little bit more realization of just how prevalent mental health challenges are, because it's, you know, 50% of us will experience a mental health challenge in our lifetime.
00:07:33:08 - 00:07:53:02
Emily
So more of us will. Or if we don't, certainly our family member will our friend. Well. So it IT folks are becoming more and more aware that this is just not something that happens to a small portion because they have some sort of defect or something. It's actually very common, and it's not because of some weakness that the individual holds.
00:07:53:02 - 00:07:57:16
Emily
It's grounded in genetics and life experiences, things of that nature.
00:07:57:16 - 00:08:04:02
Andy
Oh, and you kind of mentioned it. That a lot of people experience it, or they know people who experience mental health challenges.
00:08:05:23 - 00:08:12:12
Andy
That's probably a part of breaking down stigma. But is there more to it than just knowing somebody or going through it yourself?
00:08:12:12 - 00:08:24:14
Unknown
Yeah. Those are it is a big part. Research shows that there's two main components, and I'll throw in a third that kind of connects to the two that help reduce stigmatizing beliefs. The first is education.
00:08:24:16 - 00:08:46:13
Emily
So getting to know, like I was saying, getting to know about what our mental health conditions, what are they entail or what are all the like. How does one come about, experiencing a mental health challenge? And then the other, is that what this called contact approach or getting to know someone building relationships with individuals who have mental health challenges.
00:08:46:15 - 00:09:12:04
Emily
Because that's an emotional connection. And that helps us the most as humans kind of challenge. Things going on in our mind is when we feel emotional connection with someone else. So next time, let's say, and building a relationship and talking with someone who has schizophrenia. And then I hear a stereotype later on through the media or in a social setting that has to do with someone with schizophrenia.
00:09:12:04 - 00:09:34:21
Emily
Well, now I have a person's name and face that come to mind that I had built a relationship with. And I can say, well, wait a minute, actually, that person's not like that, or I didn't experience that in that encounter. And it's much easier then for me to reject that stigmatizing belief. Or if I've already started to internalize it before I built that relationship, I can start to unpack it and hopefully unlearn it.
00:09:35:11 - 00:09:40:09
Andy
It can turn into that, that fear of the unknown. And once you know exactly,
00:09:40:09 - 00:09:42:04
Andy
then it's not so scary.
00:09:42:06 - 00:09:44:10
Andy
And we will be right back.
00:09:45:10 - 00:09:50:11
Andy
Everyone deserves a chance for recovery. That's what drives Rodger's Behavioral Health Foundation.
00:09:50:11 - 00:09:55:06
Andy
They're helping people get the mental health care they need. From covering treatment costs for those in need.
00:09:55:06 - 00:10:01:18
Unknown
to building clinics where care is hard to find, to funding cutting edge research, they're making real change happen.
00:10:01:20 - 00:10:05:20
Unknown
And guess what? You can help. Head to Rogers Foundation, talk
00:10:05:20 - 00:10:09:23
Unknown
and be part of creating a future where mental health and wellness thrive.
00:10:11:09 - 00:10:13:10
Unknown
And now back to the interview.
00:10:13:10 - 00:10:18:09
Unknown
So how does the media play a part in mental health stigma?
00:10:18:15 - 00:10:46:04
Unknown
Yeah, plays a big part. And it can be positive or a negative role. A lot of we receive a lot of messages, obviously, in all the media that we absorb. And oftentimes it's unconscious absorbing. Right. We're just hearing it when I even necessarily processing it. But over time, the more and more we hear these things, the more likely it is to soak in to those beliefs, like I was talking about, that turn into prejudice, which then when we act on it can turn into discrimination.
00:10:46:13 - 00:11:18:15
Unknown
The media has improved certainly over the years. And I like I've said before, there's more opportunities for change and for growth in that. But a great example, I had a talk with somebody that's in news just, a week or so back who has a lot of influence and holds a prominent spot when it comes to our local news here in Milwaukee and is using that platform to bring in snippets that educate individuals on what is mental health, what can you do to support a loved one who is struggling, what you can do to support yourself?
00:11:18:17 - 00:11:28:19
Unknown
So that goes a long way to bring awareness and helping individuals challenge stigma, either in themselves or when they see it out in the community around them.
00:11:28:19 - 00:11:32:04
Unknown
What can you do to help a loved one since you brought it up?
00:11:32:04 - 00:11:44:20
Unknown
Yeah. Great question. There's, we actually on our website, which is eliminate stigma.org. We've got what's called a safe person DeKalb or seven promises.
00:11:44:20 - 00:12:06:18
Unknown
So if you go into our programs section of the website, you'll see that listed. And if you click on that, it outlines seven promises of what you can do to show up. As somebody who cares and is supportive of someone who's in need. And just real quick, what these seven promises are. The first one is to acknowledge that reaching out for support is a strength.
00:12:06:20 - 00:12:28:22
Unknown
That's right. It's so hard to be vulnerable. And if somebody come in and disclosing that to you, what an honor that they felt safe enough to come and bring that information to you. We've got to really uphold that honor and hold it with care as we move forward to support them. So once we've acknowledged that reaching out is a strength, of course we want to listen and react non-judgmental.
00:12:29:03 - 00:12:52:09
Unknown
So we want to be present in the moment, mentally present and be mindful of our nonverbals so we can show that we're a supportive person and we're not judging them in what they're sharing. We can respond in a calm and reassuring manner. That's principle number three. Number four is to reflect back the feelings, strengths and ideas that you hear when you're listening.
00:12:52:09 - 00:13:13:17
Unknown
It's is a key strategy around showing active listening, and it can also help someone tap into a strength that they're not even really realizing that they're they have, or that they're sharing that they can then use as they think about what they want to do next to access supports, they can lean on that strength to help with their action planning.
00:13:13:19 - 00:13:34:01
Unknown
And then at number five, it's to ask how I can be helpful and respond as you're able. This is key because a lot of times if folks ask for support, it can be human nature to say, oh, I want to jump in and say, yes, I can help, but if you truly cannot, it's you don't have the expertise, the time, the energy, whatever it may be.
00:13:34:03 - 00:14:04:02
Unknown
It's more compassionate to let somebody know that you can't fulfill that. Ask and then say, here's something that I can do instead. Would that be helpful? And then also to do what you can to support people to other supports as they need or as they've asked nobody. Everybody needs a robust support network around them. We all need more than 1 or 2 people, and it's a lot on the person who's there as a supporter to to show up as the only person.
00:14:04:09 - 00:14:25:07
Unknown
Not sure to that. I'm not fair to the person you're supporting. So it's the person's open to accessing additional supports, do what you can to connect them to those supports. And then finally it's maintaining confidentiality and communicate if there's exceptions that exist. So again going back to that sharing is a strength. It's so vulnerable to share our story with others.
00:14:25:09 - 00:14:54:12
Unknown
And it feels really crummy when somebody then takes that information and shares it with somebody else without our consent. Right. We've all been there. And that can prevent people from opening up and sharing with other people in the future. Now, naturally. Right. And there's exceptions to that. If somebody is talking about wanting to harm themselves or end their life, or has plans to really physically harm someone else, then we would say, hey, you know, because I care about you and I care about other people.
00:14:54:12 - 00:15:05:16
Unknown
I want to let somebody else know about this so I can get you support and other individuals support. But we want to give that person a heads up that we're going to be sharing that information to them.
00:15:05:16 - 00:15:16:07
Unknown
So let's say someone approached you to share information with you. What advice would you give someone maybe hesitant to seek help or maybe looking to seek help?
00:15:16:07 - 00:15:33:15
Unknown
Yeah, well, first I'd say to remind them that they're not alone. Right? Like I said, 50% of us are going to experiences, say, 1 in 5 Americans experience a mental health challenge in any given year. So, you know, it's sometimes when you don't hear about it, you feel like, goodness, I'm the only person who could ever be experiencing this.
00:15:33:15 - 00:15:59:09
Unknown
And that's far from the case. So in addition to that, I would, ask them what would they find to be most helpful? Like what kind of support would they like to access and have them start to think about, unpack what next steps would be beneficial for them? And then certainly if there's resources that I know of, I would ask if they'd like me to share those with them and then share them to connect them to places like Rogers.
00:15:59:09 - 00:16:34:19
Unknown
Perhaps if that's the right resource, or even other spaces where there's peers that can provide some support and just connection, and a lot of times that goes just as far, if not further in someone's road towards recovery, is connecting with another individual who's going through a similar challenge as them and Nami. For example, the National Alliance for Mental Illness has a lot of peer led programing, and it's amazing resource for individuals who have mental health challenges or just want to explore what additional supports are available out there.
00:16:34:19 - 00:16:36:16
Unknown
will be right back.
00:16:40:07 - 00:16:58:14
Unknown
real quick. I wanted to take a moment to talk to you about Wise. The initiative for Stigma Elimination unites people across the nation to support those touched by mental illness and addiction. The compassionate approach champions personal stories and powerful connections, fostering healing by reducing stigma through evidence based practices.
00:16:58:15 - 00:17:09:16
Unknown
Rogers Behavioral Health, supports the work of Wise through their Community Learning and Engagement Department, Wise collaborates with a diverse network of organizations and individuals united in the fight against stigma.
00:17:09:17 - 00:17:19:21
Unknown
You can learn more about Wise, explore their four key programs and connect with them by visiting the website WW eliminate stigma.org.
00:17:20:11 - 00:17:22:12
Unknown
And now back to the interview.
00:17:24:10 - 00:17:42:09
Unknown
Okay, so we just heard a little ad for wise, the initiative for stigma elimination. You work with them? Tell me some more about ways like you give me the elevator pitch and then the longer elevator pitch, and then, like, the longest, the longest one, the all the things sure will be, so,
00:17:42:09 - 00:17:55:21
Unknown
y is, is a coalition of individuals and organizations that are dedicated to reducing, maybe eventually or eliminating stigma as it relates to mental health, know health challenges.
00:17:55:23 - 00:18:10:15
Unknown
And while it's started in the state of Wisconsin, it now has expanded. So we've got individuals involved from across the country and even some international folks that join our our programing and our offerings and provide their support and wisdom.
00:18:10:15 - 00:18:25:21
Unknown
Our main pillars and wise is how we approach stigma reduction. I mentioned them earlier, but that two main are around education and then getting to know individuals and sharing your story right when it comes to mental health challenges.
00:18:25:22 - 00:18:27:15
Unknown
So on our wise
00:18:27:15 - 00:18:51:05
Unknown
website, which is Eliminate Stigma Talk, you'll see that there's a variety of programs available that folks can access with full curriculums and presentations. And there's also a lot of different resources of like what to say and not to say. When somebody is experiencing a mental health challenge to actual stories of people telling their lived experience, being someone with a mental health challenge, and so much more.
00:18:51:09 - 00:19:23:01
Unknown
So I highly encourage individuals to check out that site. Also, if you're interested in joining our work around mental health stigma reduction, there's lots of ways to do that through the wife's site we have this year we're offering Snap Kid Learns. So they're our long learning opportunities at various times throughout the day, and there's chances for you to learn a little bit with that education piece, but then also chances for people to share their story and share their resources with other individuals that are on the call.
00:19:23:03 - 00:19:43:13
Unknown
So I'd encourage you to check those out. Those will be happening continue quarterly. And then we're in the midst of planning a symposium that will take place this fall that will really be focused on, again, mental health, stigma reduction, some education, but a lot of action focus to what are we doing next? How are we working together to address these concerns.
00:19:43:15 - 00:20:01:03
Unknown
And then there also be a place you'll see on the website where you can indicate whether or not you want to be collaborating with wise and mental health stigma reduction, and there'll be a pledge available that you can sign to say yes and and focus and dedicated just mental health stigma reduction. And here's my name and even my website.
00:20:01:03 - 00:20:22:01
Unknown
If I'm an organization. And then you'll be on a list of folks that not just us, but everybody and anybody could reach out to to build a coalition towards, reducing the stigma and planning events and activities to continue to promote that, you know, that change reducing stigma.
00:20:22:01 - 00:20:39:08
Unknown
So you mentioned it earlier that it started in Wisconsin. That's where the W in wise comes from, right? That's right. That's the Wisconsin initiative for single elimination. It's like you outgrow on the Wisconsin part of this but kept the name. Yeah. So not just y wise initiative for signal innovation.
00:20:39:13 - 00:20:43:17
Unknown
There you go. So, how did it come to be?
00:20:43:17 - 00:21:02:11
Unknown
Yeah. Well, it's interesting when we, the community learning engagement department, when we started at Rogers, which now is probably about 12, maybe even 13 years ago, the focus of our department was then and, and remains, how do we work towards stigma elimination as it relates to mental health?
00:21:02:11 - 00:21:25:10
Unknown
And Rogers really knew that that was important for many reasons, one of which is access to care. Like we were talking about. We they knew that individuals were not accessing resources because of that self stigma and that public stigma, and it was also impacting individuals. Road towards recovery began again because of the self stigma and the public stigma around.
00:21:25:14 - 00:21:50:03
Unknown
So it's been part of all of our mental health journeys and really needed some additional focus and attention put towards it. So kudos for Rogers to put some energy and resources towards the creation of this department. So when this department started, we also knew we could not do this work alone and should not do this work alone. And there were lots of individuals doing this stigma reduction work already that we wanted to partner with.
00:21:50:03 - 00:22:16:03
Unknown
And you kind of join the movement that was already happening. So what happened in the very beginning days of the department? So leaders at the time pulled together individuals mostly full time across the state of Wisconsin who were involved in mental health work and stigma reduction work and said, you know, where where do we need to move as a community to continue to address and work on mental health stigma reduction?
00:22:16:05 - 00:22:37:03
Unknown
And that group said, well, one thing we need is an ongoing space to connect and share wisdom with each other and our learnings and lift each other up. And that is how wise came to be, because they needed a space that was going to be kind of like this coalition. So they and they named it again at the time, Wisconsin Initiative for Stigma Elimination.
00:22:37:04 - 00:22:55:02
Unknown
And that has grown particularly at the start of Covid, really took off because we want more virtual than in-person. And there was an increased awareness of mental health during Covid that brought more and more people interested and involved in our work.
00:22:55:02 - 00:23:05:20
Unknown
So Rogers continues to be involved where we are kind of the staff behind wise that keep it moving and keep the website updated and offer a lot of the programing.
00:23:05:22 - 00:23:33:14
Unknown
But the broader coalition is made up of these individuals from all sorts of different organizations, or some that aren't even involved in organization. They're just really passionate about the work. And those individuals very much inform the programs that we offer, the approaches that we take, and we very much value that community input and voice. And that will always be something that's true to the community learning engagement team.
00:23:33:14 - 00:23:40:00
Unknown
And the work of Wise makes us a better, better provider of program and a better partner.
00:23:40:00 - 00:23:48:15
Unknown
And I don't think the work will ever end. But what does the end of stigma look like?
00:23:48:15 - 00:24:13:12
Unknown
Oh, that's a beautiful lock, isn't it? Yeah, I think it's one where people are valued for being their full selves and what they bring to the table, one where we see that we all have strengths and we need each other's different strengths in order to be the healthiest, most productive in like a community.
00:24:13:14 - 00:24:39:00
Unknown
And, folks don't feel like they need to hide parts of themselves in order to interact and in order to reach their full potential, as all of us. But focus here at Rogers is, that's part of our mission, is to help people reach their full potential. We can't do that if we're in settings that are stigmatizing and perpetuating discrimination and oppression, and that's certainly in regards to mental health.
00:24:39:00 - 00:24:59:19
Unknown
But I would say in regards to every identity, like I mentioned at the beginning, there's so many different forms of oppression when it comes to race comes to sexual orientation, religion, etc. that ultimately, in order for us to really reach a world where there's no more stigma, we need to address stigma and all those identities not just one.
00:25:00:19 - 00:25:05:15
Unknown
Emily, thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate you coming on the show.
00:25:05:15 - 00:25:11:07
Unknown
Danny. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. And most importantly, for highlighting this issue.
00:25:11:07 - 00:25:25:11
Unknown
Well, listener, I hope you got as much out of that conversation as I did, I know. One of the key things that I'm going to take away from it is to realize that breaking stigma starts with me. Well, it starts with you. It starts with all of us.
00:25:25:11 - 00:25:33:18
Unknown
and the more we talk about mental health in areas outside of a therapist's office, the less stigma there will be in the future.
00:25:34:00 - 00:25:57:00
Unknown
So thanks again for listening to Rise Above, a podcast from Rogers Behavioral Health. Be sure to like and subscribe to be notified of new episodes. If you think someone you know needs to hear this episode, please feel free to send it along to them. And as always, if you or someone you care about is struggling with a mental health or substance use disorder, visit Rogers Borg for a free mental health screening.