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Becoming sustainably human at work isn't a small undertaking. It often means letting go of systems and behaviors that don't serve us individually or collectively.
So what do we do? As individuals, as groups of folks, as leaders? How do we carve out space for our humanity while making sure we're not the only ones? How do we thrive in the workplace while not imagining we must be superhuman? How do we cultivate spaces that are generative and healing, creative and extraordinary?
I don't have the answers to those questions. And, to be fair, I don't believe one human can EVER have all the answers to those questions. I'm working through those questions every day.
This podcast curates for you a set of folks with an opinion worth listening to and sharing. So join me as I ask people I admire to share their wisdom with you in accessible doses.
Join me on my quest to become sustainably human at work.
Welcome to What's Leadership?
I'm Liz Wiltsie.
The more I learn about leadership,
the more I'm convinced there's
not a one size fits all solution.
So I am on my own learning journey
and I invite you to join me.
EbonyJanice reminds me that being
open about my journey is important.
Each episode features someone I admire
with actionable insight to share.
So please join me as I
ask what's leadership?
I'm excited that David
Deane-Spread is joining me today.
David began his career in the
Australian military and has been
an executive coach for many years.
He's built his ABC Model for Rapid
Business Improvement out of his
unique experience of motivating
teams and building trust in
even the worst of conditions.
So without further intro, I'm happy
to welcome David Deane-Spread.
Let's get right into it.
How are you?
Thank you, Liz.
Fantastic.
And thank you so much for
having me on your program.
I really appreciate that.
Yeah.
So in your experience, what's the
biggest challenge leaders face at work?
The biggest challenge.
Always is dealing with their people
when things aren't going right
with the people or with the task.
It's the, it is the biggest problem
they have with their people when things
aren't going right, or the person's
got something wrong with them, whether
it be a family matter or whether it's
a disengagement in the workplace.
But dealing with those difficult
situations, that is the
toughest part for a leader.
Yeah.
Well, there's, they get out of
the way and let things happen.
It's when a crisis occurs or whether
there's a calamity of some sort in the
business or a worker's out of sorts or has
changed their attitude, or they've got a
negative attitude or complaining attitude.
Or think that can run the show
themselves and don't want the leader.
All those sorts of personal
challenges, person to person,
are the difficult things.
So what's the number one tip in your
experience for dealing with that?
Yeah, that's a really good question.
And the number one tip really
is for the leader to slow down.
Observe carefully, what's going on,
listen carefully, what's happening.
And then ask exploratory questions.
So such as you know, what's going
on for you right now, what is it?
What can I do to help?
Why is this, why has things changed?
What's changed for you?
To ask questions, to discover
what lies behind everything in a
way that's not confrontational.
Or interrogative.
So there's got to be,
look, I'm here to help.
What can I do to help?
Help me understand where you're at.
What do you think stops
leaders from doing that?
Cause what you're saying sounds
sort of super intuitive and like,
yes, you should do that, but there's
just so many people who don't.
So what do you think gets in folks way?
Most of the time they're
in problem solving mode.
So they see a problem, whether it be
a behavioral problem or a situational
problem or an operational problem,
and they they're automatically
primed to go in and, and fix it.
And so they don't back off
and slow down and breathe and,
and listen, and really do it.
You know, my new on the spot
reconnaissance, if you like.
So they try and fix.
And normally that the
fixing means to tell.
And they try to help.
They're trying to, I mean, their
intention's positive, but they go
around they start telling them,
they start saying, well, you
know, come on, you can do that.
You do that go on.
And they're trying to fix it, or they
say, this is what you have to do.
Bang, bang, bang, and they
want to get on with it.
And so that makes it worse.
So at the end of the day, what they need
to do is to back off and take command
of themselves, become calm and centered.
That's one thing.
And the other side of that is
sometimes they don't do it.
They don't do anything.
Which is worse even.
They don't want to make it worse.
I don't want to worsen the situation, but
I'm going to aggravate it, exacerbate it.
And they don't want to look foolish
because they may not know what's
going on and they don't want to reveal
that they don't know what's going on.
So it's the issue of vulnerability.
So we point to the Brené Brown
material on that, and Simon Sinek.
Those guys have
articulated it really well.
But at the end of the day, it's
really being human, being vulnerable
and saying, look, I don't really
understand what's going on right now.
Help me understand.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
and it's just, it's always amazing to me.
whenever you and I talk how
intuitive, what you're saying is,
and yet how much people get stuck
and how many people get stuck.
Cause would you say that it's, that
in your experience, there's probably
more people that get stuck than don't.
Absolutely.
don't know what to say.
They don't want to offend,
they don't want to get hurt.
They don't want to hurt.
They don't want to like make the
situation worse and they're primed and
trained to tell, to solve the problem.
They're problem solvers.
You know, they see themselves as
problem solvers in the business.
They probably know the business
more than anyone else, particularly
the small to medium sized business.
They know the business.
I probably started the business or they've
been around the business for so long.
They pretty much know most of
the things that are going on.
And so they're getting into
problem solving mode with the
right, all the right intentions.
And then they, they get push
back and then they, Oh, shit.
Okay.
Well stop.
They don't know how to deal with, the
first answer to, and sometimes I ask
them questions, but only the first level.
What's going on here?
And the person might come back with a,
it's all right, don't worry about it.
And the uncertain leader
will say, ah, okay, then just
make sure everything's okay.
Let me know, instead of saying,
okay, now hang on a tick.
I don't really understand.
Explain to me why everything's
okay when that's happening.
Let me understand.
I'm here to help.
But I do need your input.
So please explain to me where we're at.
And they've got to persist,
carefully with more questions.
But in an, in a manner that that's
going to get a response, and engagement.
If they're in a mood like this,
what's going on here, you know,
that's going to shut people down.
And if the leader's not calm and
centered and inquisitive, they'll
get that kind of control the answers.
Right.
You know, they can't guide the answer.
am I making any sense?
No, That totally makes sense.
And you, can't someone can't feel
heard either if, you know, even
outside of sort of guiding the
answer to where you want it to get.
Sometimes it feels like that
exercise is about making sure
someone actually like feels heard
and understood which can't happen in
that sort of scary face, kind of way.
It can't happen.
And the latest too many leaders
move into problem solving
mode and providing answers.
That doesn't help.
They need to actually understand
where the other person is coming
from, what they're experiencing, how
they're feeling do they want help?
And it's okay for the leader and
say, look, I really don't know that
I can immediately help you right now.
But can we get someone who can help you?
What, what sort of help do you want?
Right, right.
Yeah.
So in that vein, sort of what concept,
or you mentioned a couple of different,
kind of luminaries in the field.
ut what concept or book or talk that
you have learned over your experience,
what's been most impactful for you in
the way you think about this stuff?
Okay.
So, I mean, a lot of, I learned from
the leaders that I had, that I was
following in the military and I learned
good things and I learned things to do.
And I learned the things
that I would never do.
So I had the experience of good
and bad leaders, great leaders
and not so great leaders.
And then I also made my
own mistakes as well.
Lots of those.
When I was a young officer,
all my men were older than me.
Some of them are old
enough to be my father.
I mean, I was a second in command
of the military prisoners, my
first appointment on graduation.
And I had my 21st birthday,
on duty in the, in the prison.
And so I was, I was, such a novice.
Even though I'd been trained as a leader.
I didn't have the practical experience.
Right.
And 21 is young.
Goodness.
Very young.
Yeah.
I mean, that's how it was.
I mean, I it's like that now.
I mean, you've got guys
coming out of West Point.
They're the same age and they're very
genuine leaders and on the long, the
long road to learn, it's a learning road.
But, so I had a lot of personal
experience, but one of the books that
really, gave me a lot of insight,
particularly in the commercial side
of things was, the book Good to
Great by Jim Collins and, a few other
people that contributed to that.
Now he's not an expert leader
himself, but he's a student of it.
And he talks about level five
leadership, which is now.
And when we're talking about 20,
20 year old material, but not the
whole bit about leadership, hasn't
changed for centuries for thousands
of years, the same things work.
You know, we haven't, we haven't evolved
to that point where, leadership is
different and there'll be lots of people
telling you that it is, but it's not.
Management has changed because of
technology and complexity and what
have you, but dealing with people
hasn't changed and isn't likely to.
And so, Good to Great is a fantastic book.
for any anyone who wants to become
a better leader to read the, the
evidence, cause it's evidence based,
and the level five leadership,
which is that leader who is there
for the people, not for themselves.
Looks out of the window when things are
going really well and looks at the people
he can praise and then when things aren't
going well, it looks in the mirror and
asks, what, what can you do to help?
And not a portion blame.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and another one that, and this is,
this is an interesting one because there
was a poem by Rudyard Kipling called If.
Yes.
I know it well.
Yes.
My mother sent that to me said,
read this whilst you're on the
plane, going to your army training.
And I'll tell you what I read it.
And I loved it.
I mean, it's at a site good, so true.
And it's just about being a,
a human who cares human, a
human who can work with anyone.
Who's willing to work with anyone
willing to learn and willing to help.
Yeah, no, it's lovely.
It's lovely.
Yeah.
So, so those are the things, those, those
experiences and those, the study of it.
I think learning about leadership.
I mean, I've, I've been doing
this for a long time now.
I'm still learning.
And I think until I know the entire
population of the planet, which I never
will, but if I was to learn all of their
idiosyncrasies and what makes each one of
those people tick, I might be able to say,
yeah, I know everything about leadership,
but that's not going to happen.
So what should I have
asked you that I didn't.
Gosh, you know, that's
an interesting question.
There's so much that I, I, I could
be asked and there are a lot of
things that you could have asked and
I'm glad you didn't that really, I
suppose the main thing, one of the,
one of the biggest questions that
I think matters is, how long did it
take to become a, an effective later.
And I think that that's a, an issue
that a lot of people don't talk about.
I mean, I, I, the universities now
globally are offering masterships.
You know, master's degrees in leadership.
And I worry about that
because it's very theoretical.
And leadership is not something
you get out of a book, even though
there's some good stuff in the books,
but leadership is a practical thing.
It's something you learn.
And I mean, I, I was trained as
a, as a leader to be a platoon
commander and, and, and, you know,
theoretically I had all the knowledge,
but I didn't have the experience.
And it was only when I was making
mistakes that I really learned.
I learned the most by making mistakes.
And so how long does it take
to become an effective leader?
Awhile.
Your degree in leadership, one equip
you to deal with, somebody who had
just come to work today and, you know,
somebody rang over, ran over their dog.
Well, he ran over his dog on the way
out of the driveway, or he's come
to work today, and his wife told him
that he's leaving, she's leaving.
Her partner said they're going.
And he's now upset.
I mean, the program at the university,
wont to tell him how to deal with that.
Well, how to deal with the.
the person who's sabotaging the
team because of their negativity.
You know, you can look
to learn how to do that.
And it's one on one and
everyone's an individual.
So I don't think, you can come out of a
program saying, oh, I've done the study.
Now I'm a leader.
Now I'm an effective leader.
I think we have to recognize that
we've gotta work our way into it.
And most of our best learning will come
from from the mistakes that we've made.
We have to be willing
to make those mistakes.
I hope that answered your question.
You're a trick question.
My trick question.
No, that's a great answer.
so yes, so David, that's
the end of our interview.
I want to say thank you.
And there's a lot, there
will be lots of resources.
David has shared with us, a guide.
Do you want to tell us about the
guide that you shared with us?
I wrote a book, a few years ago,
for my clients called The Wheel
of Effective Leadership Behavior.
And that's, I've sent that to
you too, in a PDF form, which you
can send out to your listeners.
And it talks about the 12 traits that
a leader has that, that people would,
endear them to follow that leader.
And it's based on 12 historical figures.
And their unique capability, unique
traits, and I've arranged them in a way
and described those within the book.
Also the 12 traits that they all
begin with the letter C, like courage
and commitment, collaboration, those
sorts of things, clarity, candor.
Those sorts of words
and there's 12 of them.
But also the good thing about the
book is that there's a way of testing
yourself and measuring yourself and
at the back of the book and how you
can also get your team to rate you.
Great.
And then how, how do we deal with each
one of those, those characteristics,
those traits, how do we prepare for them?
How do we deliver them?
How do we practice?
How do we rehearse?
How do we rehearse the be courageous, for
instance, how do we rehearse to be candid?
How do we can, can we, rehearse
to deliver on commitment?
So it's a very useful book.
My clients love it.
I never write books to become bestsellers.
I write them for my clients and a way of
capturing my thoughts and my IP, I guesss.
Yes.
And I'm excited that we'll get
to share it with our listeners.
Yeah, that's fantastic.
It's my pleasure to do that.
And thank you so much for interviewing me.
I really appreciate it.
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