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The Wellness Docket is a podcast for lawyers and legal professionals ready to prioritize their mental health. Through honest conversations with guests from inside and outside the legal world, we explore burnout, balance, and the pressures of practice—creating space for reflection, recovery, and resilience in the profession. This is a space where your wellness is always on the docket.
Tim: [00:00:02] Okay, so I am here with Dan Lukasik. I’m excited to have a chance to connect with you again. It's been a few years, so I welcome you to The Wellness Docket for this episode. Why don't we just do a quick bio, Dan? If you're, if you're like me, if you're a member of sort of the mental health and wellness part of the bar in both Canada and the US, you would know your name, but just for our viewers and listeners that haven't had a chance to meet and interact with you, what tell us a little bit about your background.
Dan: [00:00:34] Yeah. So I live in Buffalo, New York for many years. I was a trial lawyer approximately over 30 years trying cases throughout New York state and other states in the US. And I've been involved, in addition to the practice of law, in mental health. Six years ago, I was appointed by our chief judge in New York State to be the Judicial Wellness Coordinator for the Office of Court Administration. So what that means is we have 1600 state Supreme Court trial level judges in New York state, where the first or second in the country in terms of number. And my full-time responsibility, it's a full-time job is to, programming and policy on mental health topics, for those 1600 judges. And I'm also responsible when those judges are in need themselves or their families.
Tim: [00:01:30] Obviously, anybody who wants to look you up online can see that you started the website Lawyers with Depression and you've, you've kind of been involved with this area before. It was, I guess, fashionable, if you will. Tell me a little bit about what kind of things you see in the judicial system in New York and kind of what are the everyday problems that you serve to address?
Dan: [00:01:55] My own diagnosis of depression about 25 years ago and started the Lawyers for Depression website. The second thing I do is I'm also a professor of law at the University of Buffalo Law School, where I teach 50 law students a class on mental health and well-being in the legal profession. And the last six years I've been involved with the judges. So I'd like to say I cover all three silos and I've had experience with all three. Very involved with all three. And the… some of the very unique stressors and troublesome spots that they each have. And then some have a lot in common. I think what I would say about judges and how it's maybe perhaps different or some of the more unique risk factors is that it can be a very lonely job. You know, it's just them. It's them. They call the shots. They make the decisions. Most judges have just a secretary, a court clerk, and a confidential walkerp, which is a lawyer who helps them with conferences and writing decisions. So many of these people are experienced lawyers and they go from like a law firm or a government job, but something where they're around a lot of people, right? And go into the small space. Decisions can be extremely consequential. Whether they be criminal or family court. So they have, and they also have an obligation or ethic code, ethics code not to talk about these things. And so that's very strict confidentiality. Maybe they had lots of friends before they became judges who were other lawyers. They have you go from being, you know, Dan Lukasik to being judge, high judge. You know, there's a distance there. So it's a very unique kind of job. It's a very rewarding job, but a very stressful job in a very unique kind of way.
Tim: [00:03:50] Right. And so what kind of things, what kind of programming do you work on on a regular basis? And then what kind of things do you deal with specifically? Like, obviously you can't tell us specific stories, but I'm sure you can tell some general ideas of what you might experience on a day to day basis.
Dan: [00:04:10] Well, about 6 or 7 years ago, the largest study of its kind was conducted on judges in the US of about a thousand state Supreme Court trial level judges. They picked them randomly and it was a confidential survey. And it's very interesting and telling. They have a lot of the same levels of psychological distress, the anxiety, depression, burnout, those kinds of things. They ask them, you know, what are your top ten stressors? What are the top ten most stressful things? So number one, number one was the impact of my decision on people's lives. Then they asked them another top ten. What is the most… what do you like most about the job? And number one was the ability to make decisions that impact people's lives. So I think that's a lesson for us all. And I think it's… I talked to my law students about it. I said, you know, some of the stress that we live with as lawyers is because in fact, what we do is so important, consequential, and that can be a very, very good thing. I often use the analogy, you know, I say, you know, you don't think Martin Luther King had high stress and anxiety and depression sometimes? He was doing something very consequential. So it's not always a sign that something's wrong in your life, per se. It can be reflective of the important work that you do. But many then they ask them, you know, top ten things of you'd like to… what would help, what would help you as a judge? And number one in their list of things was things like meditation, mindfulness, yoga. So I think that's a historical development where, you know, I think these kinds of traditional treatments like therapy and medication, but also these alternative approaches, like, you know, thinking of yoga and mindfulness and even exercise more as just as much as medicine or treatment approach to mood disorders, just as much as therapy and medication. So I think the study was very interesting and telling.
Tim: [00:06:26] And do you see judges kind of taking to these new… I won't say these new ways of being, but some of these new therapies and suggestions maybe that you're making or the policies that you're following?
Dan: [00:06:40] Yeah, I think it's interesting, Tim, actually, because I've said many times that what I see, not only in the legal profession, but beyond is, it's a generational thing too. So maybe people 30 and under 35 and under younger are much more approachable and feel less stigma about this topic. Many of law students have told me, you know, I don't have a problem saying I have depression or anxiety or calling my friend, but you know, someone 40, 50, 60, 70 does have because they grew up at a time when that was more shameful, more stigmatized, such as myself. So they grew up in a time like I did where it was a bigger, a bigger stigma number one. Number two, they also had this fear that it could jeopardize their standing as a judge. Right? And number three, I think that, I think it's difficult because of the kind of stress it is, you know, not many, many people who aren't lawyers can sympathize with lawyers saying, yes, that's a difficult job. Oh my God. Most people don't really understand what a judge does. You know, they don't, you know. So and my, one of my greatest privileges of my life has been serving as a judicial wellness coordinator. Judges are wonderful people. And it's, it's such a blessing because they're always trying, so many of them, almost all of them are trying to do the right thing. Very high case loads, very consequential decisions. You know, it's just admirable. So many of them I've gotten to know, many of whom become my friends.
Tim: [00:08:27] And tell us a little bit about, you've got this course. How long have you been teaching this mental health course?
Dan: [00:08:36] Yeah. Six years. I wrote a ten page letter to the dean outlining my course. But before I did it, I did a survey of the 15 law schools in New York state. And I said, you know, I talked to deans and I said, does anybody have a course like this? Well, we have courses on mindfulness. We have courses on this or that. But I said, no, but do you have a course that addresses these more hard-hitting topics like depression, suicide, anxiety? And they said, no, we don't. I said, every law school in this state doesn't do this. And the statistics about lawsuits are off the charts. And I said to the dean, what lesson are we teaching these young people that this is the elephant in the room? Well, we're not going to talk about it. I said, that's the exact opposite message you want to teach these young people, like get it out in the open, recognize that this is a wonderful profession. I said some of the best times in my life have been as a lawyer, but it's also true at the same time, some of the most stressful periods in my life have been as a lawyer. It contributed to my development of depression. It didn't cause it, per se, but there are other risk factors, some, I think if we knew the full story, most people do. So I thought that was important to address it. And I've been teaching it for six years.
Tim: [00:10:11] And tell me, what are some of the most provocative things that students say to you? Or what are the things that you've learned in that six year process that you've been teaching that course?
Dan: [00:10:22] Well, they get different assignments, but really the most powerful one is at the end of the semester, they have to hand in a ten-page paper, my eyes only, of what they've learned and what they want to say to me. And then I said, after I've read and graded the papers, I throw them away. If you want them back, I'll give them to you. Otherwise I shred them. Some of the most over the top powerful stories are really impactful stories of people struggling. Many of the young people don't have a clear direction or path to what they're going to be doing after law school. Many of them hate, hate, hate the grading curve. Where, here in the US, you know, out of 100 students, you know, ten people get in regardless of how other people have done.
Tim: [00:11:19] Yeah, I think it's similar in most, most schools on the curve like that. Yep.
Dan: [00:11:23] Yep. How much feedback from the professors? And this is typical. This is not just this one law school, or like just a final. That's it. So you don't know how you're doing along the way. You just get one big grade. So I think that's difficult for a lot of them. And I think they come into the profession, as I did with some pre-existing risk factors. And I think, you know, I often say maybe if I would have been a librarian or, you know, a plumber, I don't know the answer, but it may be true that I wouldn't have developed major depression. I still might have. I don't know the answer to that. But I think what's true is we have pre-existing risk factors that expose anybody to becoming, having mental illness as an adult. You know, a genetic predisposition. They know that's about 50% risk factor into the equation. A family history of trauma or dysfunction. I grew up with an alcoholic, abusive father. So two right in front of me.
Dan: [00:12:33] And then what do I do? I go into the most high stress aspect of worrying that I could pick, You know, I didn't appreciate all those things or understand the interconnections. Folks going into it, many of them are perfectionists, hard charging, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, I don't have a problem, that kind of stuff. And I think that the public views lawyers as strong, tough. You know, everybody wants lawyers like that. And that does not line up with, uh, gee, I have depression or anxiety or bipolar disorder. So a lot of lawyers hate it until it's too late. And then the, you know, the wheel falls off, the proverbial wheel falls off. That's what happened to me. And then it's a difficult journey for lots of people. Today, people are getting help much, much earlier. And a good thing. The profession is much more willing to talk about it. Like, for example, your podcast, which is a fantastic thing you're doing, Tim, for your community, wouldn’t, probably wouldn't have existed ten years ago, right?
Tim: [00:13:45] Yeah. That's true. I think that we're seeing a lot more people talking about the subject. In Canada, we had a similar study a few years ago where, where they looked at Sherbrooke University in Quebec, looked at many people in the legal profession, from articling students to paralegals to lawyers, and all across the board, the statistics were not good and a lot of improvement that can be made. I wonder, I wonder if you would discuss a little bit here. So over the past couple years, you've done something that is very creative in that, how did, how did it come about that you started getting involved with… you've got two documentaries. The first one, My Brother Lost in Time. Tell me a little bit about that one and how that came about. And obviously from a very tragic story. But some good was able to come of it and the discussion that came from that. And I'll kind of reflect on you what really resonated with me.
Dan: [00:14:53] Well, I came from a family of five. I'm number four. I had a younger brother who's the baby in the family. He was three years younger than me. My brother, unfortunately, had a form of depression called bipolar disorder. That he started with his whole life. He was a really brilliant person and had large chunks of time in his life where he was very successful, successful businessman. But as he got older, the periods between breakdowns got shorter and shorter, and my brother really didn't accept that he had mental illness. Just didn't. So the last five years of his life, he died three years ago this month, he… we only communicated by phone call, text, and email because he was so impossible to be around that… And he didn't want to see me. I would have seen him. And then one day I got a phone call from the police department saying they found him dead in a hotel room. Which was just a devastating thing to go through. So totally by coincidence, 1 in 1,000,000 thing a, I was writing an article for our newspaper about our relationship and an independent filmmaker who worked with PBS read the story, and he wanted to do a short documentary about our lives. And it turned out to be 15 minutes. Right now, you can watch it, PBS has put it on their YouTube page so you could watch it. It's called My Brother Lost in Time: A Bipolar Life.
Dan: [00:16:28] And people sometimes will say, well, what's what does that mean? My Brother Lost in Time. And I think when he died, I found myself going back in time to when we were children. Beautiful aspects of our lives together as children. We were very, very close as small children. I wanted myself, but I wanted other people to remember him as this innocent child, you know, who unfortunately had risk factors like I did of mental illness and child abuse. And I kind of went one way in terms of academics and sports and achievement. And my brother, he also got a master's degree, was very intelligent, but he just refused to accept he had mental illness and a big turning point in my life when I was a lawyer at 40, I accepted it and I said, okay, you know, this isn't like stress or I need a vacation. You know, I have a form of mental illness. And, you know, to be honest, it gave me some relief because I stopped feeling so ashamed and I stopped beating myself up like, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? And I recognized that, okay, this is something that needs treatment and I need to take better care of myself, and I did. And a lot of lawyers don't take care of themselves. It's difficult to show. Every time I see it. But it gives me an opportunity to make something good out of such a tragedy. So I feel very strongly about that.
Tim: [00:18:07] Yeah, it was really, it was really interesting to… and, and I think for anybody who has family members who have gone through similar struggles, you realize that everyone around them is going through that as well. You know, it doesn't just touch the person who's going through the mental illness, it certainly impacts everybody around them. And it's, you know, vicarious trauma, if I might, that it's something that.
Dan: [00:18:36] Absolutely.
Tim: [00:18:37] You can't avoid.
Dan: [00:18:39] Absolutely. And I think, you know, with my brother, I often say, I don't know the situation in Canada, but like going through this with my brother over the last, say 30 years, our family was torched by this. So many times we tried to get him help. And the ways the laws are written in the US, they said, well, has he tried to kill somebody or has he tried to kill himself? And if the answer is no, it's pretty much good luck. You know, that's really a moral failure on the part of our country and our mental health care system because, you know, in the name of freedom or giving people the right to self-determination, to people struggling. But the problem with that is they can't take care of themselves, like their brain is not functioning. So as a consequence, in the name of that, we allow these people to fail, to become homeless, to die. You know, so I don't know if that's true in Canada, but it is here.
Tim: [00:19:43] Have you felt some sort of hearing? Pardon me, some sort of healing after putting out that documentary? Has it helped you?
Dan: [00:19:54] 1,000% because it was, I think, for me, one of the things in my, you know, bag of tricks that helped me with my depression is any form of creativity. So starting the Lawyers with Depression website was a big source of that years ago. And writing about it and meeting other people. I started a depression support group here in my community just for lawyers 20 years ago. It's been going strong for 20 years and we meet twice a week. I try to use my own depression for something good, creative. And with my brother, it allowed me a way to work through that story in my head. And the filmmaker is just so brilliant. You know, he put together the, you know, the editing, the music to create this compelling story. And I, it makes me happy or not happy... It's meaningful to me that so many people have found support in it. And like you say, it says a lot about family members, coworkers, loved ones who are affected, right? That is an equally part, that's an equal 50% part of the message of the film is, here I was, yes, I had depression, mental illness, but I'm a family member trying to help a family member with mental illness and the difficult journey that that is. And… but to, to the degree we could raise awareness that, yes, this is, you know, a lot of families like this, like you. And yes, there is support for family members. I think if we can do that, we can… in the form and by telling a story, not just PowerPoints or lecture, you know?
Tim: [00:21:44] And the second documentary was the more recent one, and that's travels with George. And I actually watched that today. And I thought what a wonderful honor that you could, you could have this, this person in your life. And again, it looks like it's 50%, you benefit just as much as what you give, you get back from that. And so can you tell us a little bit about, number one, your friendship with George and then how, how that documentary came about?
Dan: [00:22:18] Well, after finishing the first one with the filmmaker, he said, well, what's our next project? I said, I don't think I have any gas in the tank for another project. That that 15 minute film about my brother, you know, there must have been like 500 emails and a philanthropist got involved and there was… it was so overwhelming. So I said, I don't even know what we would do another film about, you know. So he goes, what about your relationship with George? George is a young child I met ten years ago when he was nine years old. He's black. And I went to volunteer at a place called Saint Luke's Mission, which is in the poorest, most segregated part of Buffalo. And I went to the director and I said, you know, I went there and I said, I don't even know why I'm here exactly. You know, I want to be of help somehow. It's been an incredible journey with George. He's 19 now. We just had lunch today. George, when he was born, his father left. So he's never had a father. And I don't have a son, So, you know, there used to be a time when maybe when he's 12 or 13, George really wanted to search down and find his biological father, and that went on for, like, a year. And I'd say I’ll help you do that, George. But he never did. So maybe a year ago, I asked him, do you still want to do that? We haven't talked about it in a long time. And he goes, no, I have you.
Dan: [00:23:51] You know, you know, no, I don't need to do that anymore. So people sometimes in the community know us now. And sometimes people say, oh, it's so wonderful what you do for George. So wonderful. And I always say, you know, you really got it all wrong. I mean, it's wonderful what he does for me. And we're each other's best friends. And I'm so grateful, you know, that he's… There's a magic to it. You know, I sometimes feel like I don't deserve George. You know, he's such a wonderful human being. And the film, I think, is a powerful testimony to the power of friendship and connection, because I think one of the worst aspects of, speaking of myself, for depression, but so many lawyers with depression, is one of the worst aspects is loneliness. And that can come from many different sources. Sometimes because of stigma. And earlier in my life as a lawyer, when I had depression, I felt that people who used to ask me out to lunch stop asking me out to lunch. People who used to ask my opinions about cases stop asking my opinions about cases. Now I think it's changed where I've noticed, you know, with the judges and other people, the person is not supported, right? Whether it be that they don't what, so they don't get talked to or they don't get helped because of something awful like stigma, or they don't get help because I don't know what to say or to do. You know, the results are still the same.
Tim: [00:25:36] Right, and so if people don't know what to say, they just say nothing.
Dan: [00:25:40] Yes. That's, you know, it's a natural human instinct. And I certainly get it, I do. And so there's two sources of where the loneliness comes from. The third is, I would feel depression can make you feel awful physically and emotionally. I didn't want to be around other people, you know, so it's common for folks, and I think lawyers in particular, to isolate themselves. So this film is about this very 1 in 1,000,000. Well, I guess it's not 1 in 1,000,000. I don't think so anymore. But it's this meeting with this, I found this connection with a child of completely different socioeconomic background. I'd never been in that neighbourhood before. I didn't know what I was doing. George didn't like me at first.
Tim: [00:26:35] Oh, he flipped it. He flipped a table the first time.
Dan: [00:26:37] Yes. That's right. So the film premiered at the University of Buffalo. It's about a 30,000 student campus. We had a sold out crowd of about 300 people. And George and his mother were there. His mother is in the film. And after the film, they got a standing ovation. And, that just, you know, meant the world to me. And I just said to him, you know, George, this is who you are. And I think in America and other parts of the world, you know, we often think so poorly of people who don't look like us, you know. And I said, don't anybody ever let tell you that you're not a wonderful, smart, you know, caring human being. So I think he was healed in this journey too. And his family. You know, his mother, Georgette’s in the film. And there are whole, you know, cast of characters, you know. Saint Luke's mission is filled with a cast of characters and, you know, so right now with George, I'm trying to steer him through young adulthood. The other part about depression that I think I want to say is that I think an important part for some people is going to be service because when we can go outside of ourselves, you know, depression can be an isolating thing because we're really trapped inside our rumination, inside of our minds, inside our depressive thinking.
Dan: [00:28:08] And it's very hard to break out of that. And, I found that over the years with George, there'll be days in which I call George and say, George, I, you know, I just don't have it in me. I am really struggling with depression. I'm pinned to my seat. I just don't have the gas in the tank now. But looking back over ten years, that's only happened a few times where I've said that, where I didn't go. And when I did feel that way, I would go usually because George needed me. But then I think I also needed him, you know? And it's not like it's some panacea or cure for depression, but I think it's an important element. Gives me a lot of meaning and purpose in life to be of service to George for all his needs, you know, whatever the… And he never asked for anything.
Tim: [00:29:01] Right.
Dan: [00:29:02] You know, but it makes me, I said this to him a million times, it makes me happy to make you happy, George. And I say that to my wife and my daughter, you know, all the time. You know, it's one of my mottos. It makes me happy to make you happy. And, I tend to think that's a better way of living your life rather than always thinking, you know, why aren't I happy? You know, why aren't you making me happy? Abraham Lincoln once had this great saying during the Civil War. He's talking about the better angels of our nature. You know, we all have this little devil and this little angel. And to the degree we can think beyond ourselves and service to others, that's the better angels of our nature, you know?
Tim: [00:29:46] Yeah. For sure. And I think that when you get outside of, when you're serving others, you kind of get outside of your own head and you don't have time to be concerned about the things that that would have concerned you before.
Dan: [00:30:00] I used the analogy with my law students. It's kind of like going to the gym and I said, it's kind of like service. You know, it's the same thing. It's very hard to be depressed per se or to deep… for the depression to get deeper, when you're focused on somebody else who needs you, you know? And I, you know, I think of lawyers in the sense that here's an opportunity to do something impactful. And, you know, here you are educated, many lawyers are better off than most people. Maybe they think about volunteering or something like that, but I think it's in a relationship that we can make the biggest contribution to society. And I think that not only, you know, that child or that person, but oneself, you know, oneself. So it's a two-way thing. You know, I just think that when I look at my life, you know, why I survived and my brother didn't. Therapy. Medication. You know, I'm very fortunate to have a good wife and my daughter.
Tim: [00:31:22] And so what I always end these sessions with is, the question is, if there was one thing that you could change about the legal system with regards to mental health, what would it be?
Dan: [00:31:39] Well, I really think, and that's why I began teaching at the law school. I think we really fail young people in this regard, is that I do believe that a good chunk of mental health problems that develop in the law is for a couple of different reasons. One of which is people go to law school, don't want to be lawyers, and a lot of them go from a liberal arts education. I don't know if I can get a job doing that. Maybe I'll go to law school and figure it out. Well, we have to call that what it is and address that problem and figure out, you know, career paths that don't involve traditional, you know, paths to working at a big law firm or government. That would be number one. Number two is to educate the students about finding a career path that is harmonious with your personality type. So I said, I jokingly said, some reporter asked me, what would you do, Dan? I said, I'd give them all a personality test. You know, something like that, there they would be, they would be told, it's okay. It's okay to want to pick a career or career path or type of law that's more consistent with your personality. For example, I see a lot of people forced into working at big firms. Maybe people that are do well academically and guess what? They hate it. So I knew this young woman who I mentored, who lives in New York City, and she went to Harvard Law School. She was hired by one of the global firms in New York City.
Dan: [00:33:22] 20 people. They were all summer associates together there, 20 of them. They treated them like kings and queens, paid them a lot of money. And she went there and she quit after two years and has now left the legal profession because it was a horrible experience. It did not match her values or who she was. And I think when we think about our lives as lawyers and we want to try to, as best we can listen to that voice in us. And to the degree that we squelch it or repress it or suppress it, I think we're more likely to develop things like anxiety, depression, burnout, those kinds of things. So I think, you know, listening to your voice, helping law students with alternative careers or, you know, educating law students about what's, you know, consistent with their values and personalities. And I think this goes, is very true for lawyers throughout their lifespan and throughout their career span. Because, you know, for me, I took a career turn, when I was in middle aged, you know, I chose okay, I said, that's enough. I need to do something that's more… healthier for me. So I was a very good lawyer. I got a lot of accolades as a trial lawyer. The problem was it made me very sick. Right? And at some point, I decided that I had to change, and I did, you know, I changed my career path.
Tim: [00:35:01] Well, thanks so much, Dan, for joining us and everything that you continue to do for the mental health community and lawyers. You know, I think that it's one of the success stories and I hope that other people kind of continue on the same path that you've started and will continue to make the profession better.
Dan: [00:35:22] I bet you, Tim, because I think it's wonderful what you're doing in Canada and you showed up at a great time to be.... You're like the cavalry arriving at the scene because there's a lot of lawyers in Canada, same as in the states who struggle with these issues. And I think hearing these kind of programs, becoming educated about it, really… And you'll never know how many people you've helped, you know, but it's important work.
Tim: [00:35:52] I appreciate it. Thank you.