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Welcome to The Culture Code podcast. On this podcast, you’ll learn how to grow, shape, and sustain a high-performance culture with the CEO of LEADx, Kevin Kruse. From designing and delivering highly effective leadership development programs, to measuring and improving the employee experience, you will understand what it takes to cultivate a thriving company culture. Through interviews with Chief People Officers, deep dives into key topics, and recordings of our invite-only community sessions, we bring you cutting-edge, data-backed insights from the most desirable companies to work for in the world.
Kruse: Let's get this recording; it might ask you to approve that. And here we go - hello, everyone; I'm Kevin Kruse. Welcome to Culture Code. Our guest today is the VP of Culture and ESG at HubSpot, Marin Emer. Where are you joining us from today?
Marrinan: I am joining from home in Dublin, Ireland - a West Dublin, Ireland - we were joking beforehand. But it's been our wettest July and August in history, so I feel like I'm on a soapbox, talking about that consistently.
Kruse: Dublin, Ireland. So, I'm just outside Philadelphia, and as I'm sure you know, Americans love to tell Irish folks about the Irish in them - so I have to do my part, let you know that my great-grandfather, Patrick Mclaren, came from County Cork through Ellis Island. But I haven't been to Ireland yet. I think I'm gonna fix that next year because, you know, I'm 56 years old and I've never been to Ireland. I'm kind of ashamed about that.
Marrinan: You should be ashamed. Do you have to come in as well? If you're there, make sure to hook to the top into, for sure.
Kruse: I will definitely do that. So, HubSpot's clearly in the digital marketing and sales space - like a legendary company. For those who might not be familiar with [your company], how big is your organization, and in plain language, what do you do?
Marrinan: Yeah, totally. So, HubSpot is what we call a CRM platform - and CRM stands for Customer Relationship Management. We provide software and support to help companies grow better. So, said differently, we provide marketing, sales, and service tools to help more than 177,000 customers scale. And then, in terms of size, we have over 7,000 employees globally - from around the world. And we're a remote company. So those 7,000 employees can work remotely from one of our 12 global offices or do a mix of both.
Kruse: So, I know you mentioned you're in Dublin. Where is the headquarters, though, among the 12 global offices?
Marrinan: Yeah. So, our headquarters is in Cambridge, in Boston - over in Massachusetts. Or, Cambridge, Massachusetts is probably the most correct term. I was gonna say, Cambridge, Boston, and so on. Our EMEA HQ is then here in Dublin. So the team is actually based in the US.
Kruse: How often do you go to Boston?
Marrinan: Yeah, it's a great question, like, you know? What? I joined HubSpot in the midst of Covid. So I joined in May 2020, and there is a really long period of time where I actually never traveled. And it's only recently that I got the opportunity to go over and visit the team. So I've been there twice now, which has been brilliant, and great to meet the team, and see my own team and my boss and manager in person. That's been brilliant.
Kruse: But when it comes to company culture, obviously, what this podcast is all about - how would you describe your company culture in just a few words?
Marrinan: Yeah, that's a really good question. Kind of a hard one. I'm gonna be annoying and describe it in a few different ways. But I do think the great thing, by the way, is for anyone who wants to learn more about our culture or understand a bit more about it, we've actually written it down. In 2013, our co-founder, Dharmesh, wrote something called the Culture Code - a 120-page slide deck. It goes into what we value, how we work, and who we aspire to be. So I'll describe it in a few words, but definitely check that out if you want to learn more.
In this culture code, we talk about, like I said, our culture and our values. I think our culture is best described as, first of all, solving for the customer. That's our front-and-center, kind of first and foremost - being remarkably transparent. We favor autonomy, accountability, and flexibility. And then we're also committed to building a diverse, inclusive, and sustainable organization. So I think that is a really good summation of the company that we're trying to build.
And then I think the other thing that's important about our culture is we speak to this in the culture code. We talk about our values, and our values are really the traits that we admire and that we celebrate. They're summarized in the acronym HEART. So what HEART stands for is Humble, Empathetic, Adaptable, Remarkable, and Transparent. And so, again, those are things that you'll hear us talk about a lot if you're in HubSpot.
Kruse: What are some of the ways you foster or sustain this culture? Any unique rituals or traditions related to your culture?
Marrinan: Yeah, I think that's a great question because I do also think that's where a lot of companies go wrong. I think culture can just be words on paper unless you actually take the time to invest and make sure that you're activating your culture in the right way. I actually really like and appreciate this question. I think there are probably three things that come to mind.
The first thing is, we actually invest in our culture, and we spend time thinking about it. And you referenced that Dharmesh wrote it down. So that's really important. We have my team and my role, and not many companies have that. My team's job is to actually help activate our culture and drive initiatives in support of our culture and keep an eye on our culture and cultural health.
The second thing we do to foster and sustain our culture is actually measure it. We measure our culture on an annual basis in our employee survey. So that's our engagement survey. The reason we do this is we need to see how we're doing and get feedback from our employees. We also need to see if there's anything that we need to course-correct. I think the world of culture has been turned on its head a little bit over the last few years, and certainly, we transitioned into a new work model as we turned into hybrid. All of that has an impact on our culture and making sure that we have the right activations in place. Being prepared to evolve your culture as well, I think, is something that we do. That's the measurement piece.
The third piece is there are a few experiences, I suppose, or activations - you can say rituals or traditions - that we have in place at HubSpot to really bring our culture to life. I can cut out a few of those. I spoke about solving for the customer, and I think that is super important even if you're not in a customer-facing role or you're not necessarily working on the product. A good example is our company meeting once a quarter, and the first slot at that meeting is a customer interview. We ask a customer to join us and talk to them live in front of all 7,000 employees. We ask them what's working for them as they think about our product, but also what's not. We need that feedback from our customers, and we need everyone to hear that. It's awesome; it's their opportunity to tell everyone in sales and product what they would like. We also ask them, you know, if they had a magic wand, what would they change? It might seem simple, but again, it's those moments that help bring that to life and make sure people truly are solving for the customer first.
Another thing we do is focus on fun. Once a year, we have Heart Week - a week-long celebration to celebrate our values, talk about our values, and remind people of our values. We're a growing company, and so, like you said, we need to constantly talk about our culture from onboarding through to when people move on from HubSpot. That's a week of fun. We hear from our leaders as we lean into transparency, and we also do things focused on humility to give back to our communities.
The final thing is I mentioned we want to build a diverse, inclusive, and sustainable company. That's all about growing our people in the right way and making sure they have opportunities to take a break and unwind. One of my favorite traditions is our annual Week of Rest, which we just finished. It's a week off in early July, and the entire company shuts down. HubSpotters return from that week of rest without having to worry about their emails piling up or having a busy inbox. I personally love that, and I think it speaks to investing in our people, making sure we're a people-centric organization, and being inclusive while finding ways to help grow our employees. So, hopefully, that gives you a little taste of some of the things we do.
Kruse: Eimear, it's not just a feast. It's not just a taster, and I know there's so much more. I'm furiously jotting down some things. So, first, I've obviously talked to a lot of Chief People Officers, heads of experience, etc. While I often hear about all-hands meetings, this is the first time I've heard of the idea that you always start with a customer interview. That is so powerful - very, very unique. Also, just for our listeners, I want to mention that as a writer, I kind of have an ear for language, and you use the magic wand question. You suggest to customers, like, if you had a magic wand, what could you change? And just as a bonus tip out there, that question is so powerful. In fact, I'm going to use it on you in a minute in a follow-up question. But asking your team members, you know, if you had a magic wand, what would you do to make your role even better? Or if you had a magic wand, whatever - it's just so great that you're asking your customers that. And that question can be used all over the place.
Then you talked about HubSpotters - you know, I notice that companies with great cultures often have a name for the tribe. I'm hearing the tribe name come out. And finally, I was hoping to ask you about Rest Week because it kind of blows my mind. Everybody's got paid time off or unlimited PTO. There are pros and cons to that. You actually have a week in the middle of the year. It's common for people to slow down or shut down at the end of the year, but it's very rare - in fact, I don't know if I've heard of anyone else doing it - to take a full week in the middle of the year. My question is, do people actually take it? Or is it one of those things where people know they're supposed to take it off, but they have so much work to do, or they're so ambitious that they end up showing up and sending out a few emails just to show the higher-ups that they're working away? How do you manage that?
Marrinan: It's a really good question. I think when we first planned for a week - actually, just to give you a little bit of context around how this came about. I mentioned that I joined during Covid, and we all remember those moments with the level of PTSD, I think, especially for employees everywhere. There was a level of burnout that employees and employers experienced that they never experienced before, and we certainly felt that at HubSpot. As part of our employee survey, we actually tested for burnout back in 2021, and we definitely heard that our employees needed help. So we introduced an initiative which we call the 5 Rs. It's a mix of giving people time back - dedicated time. As an example, we now have "No Meeting Friday" so you can focus on deep work. The annual Week of Rest was born as a result of that. We focused on some other things that I would say were deeper, really focusing on the causes of burnout around manager support and safety, making sure that managers had the right level of resources.
That was the first year we tested the annual Week of Rest back in 2021, and there was definitely skepticism and nervousness, especially knowing that we're so customer-driven. How can you shut down for a week? What do we do from a customer perspective? As with everything, we piloted it for a week. We got ahead of it pretty quickly, and we actually told our customers. We sent out notifications letting them know we were taking a break, investing in our employees, and practicing what we preached. They were super receptive, as were the employees.
We then retested burnout the year after, and our burnout rates dropped, and we had really positive feedback from the Week of Rest. It continues. There are a couple of things we've done to make sure people take it seriously and truly take the time. Our leaders talk about it. We joke about the company meeting where we talk about our customers. Our leaders, all of our executive-level team, CEO, etc., talk about what they're doing for their Week of Rest. They lead from the front, which is so important because you have to have leadership buy-in and show people what your leaders are doing, and the same with our managers. We publish it. We tell our customers. We talk about it loudly, and people take it. Of course, we do have a volunteer skeleton team that is there to support our customers just in case anything goes wrong. That's truly volunteer, and they can take time back whenever.
But it certainly works. I love it. It's funny - I actually pointedly never go on vacation that week. I take it as a self-care week. I have three kids; my most difficult job is being a mom of three. I always leave my kids in the crash in Ireland or in daycare, and I have a self-care week. I don't go on vacation because I take my vacation at the end of the summer before the kids go back to school. I also think it's important to talk about that, by the way. Having a week off in July doesn't mean you shouldn't or can't take a vacation at a time that works best. So I think, again, in our transparent culture, talking about that stuff and normalizing it is super important. And that's why it works.
Kruse: It's great, so I want to follow up because I was going to ask you about how you receive feedback from employees. Let's dive deeper into the annual survey topic. In numerous organizations, there's a VP of Employee Experience responsible for overseeing the survey process. Do you have ownership of that process, or is there a distinct experience group?
Marrinan: Yeah, that's a fantastic question. We have a people analytics team that takes charge of the survey's design and analysis. On the cultural front, I would say I am responsible for implementing actions based on the results, both from a global company perspective and for disseminating these outcomes across the company. Additionally, we provide individualized feedback to managers who have 8 or more direct reports that have completed the survey. This step ensures that they are effectively implementing necessary changes as indicated by the results. It's a crucial aspect, and the collaboration primarily occurs between my team and the people analytics team…
Kruse: ..and annual survey, not pulsing.
Marrinan: No, it's actually a quarterly survey. This surveys that I was kind of referring to. Yeah, it's a quarterly survey. We call it our baseline survey. It first ask a ton of questions, and we use that to center our action plan for the year, and then we pulse check then every quarter. We don't ask honestly more than 4 questions because we need people to answer us. There's a mix of Emps kind of like engagement score service and open-ended questions. People can add in like, what is working and what's not working? If we ask more than that, I know there'll be survey fatigue, and people won't answer. So that's kind of an important nuance.
Kruse: Yeah. And for our listeners, many of whom are interested in employee engagement and organizational culture, you're discussing the use of the Enps - Employee Net Promoter Score methodology. This methodology involves a single question, which is beneficial for pulse surveys due to its simplicity. However, there are counterarguments suggesting that Enps wasn't originally designed for this purpose as it doesn't encompass the entirety of engagement. Many models, including LEADx, adopt a 3-question approach to fully comprehend engagement. In a study comparing the correlation between the one-question Enps and the three-question model, we found an over 80% correlation. So, if your aim is comprehensive transformation, the three-question model might be preferable. But if you're seeking insights for pulse surveys, you can extract over 80% of the necessary information from that single question.
70% of engagement is correlated to the manager, and front-line managers touch more employees than any other leadership group. What are some of the ways you develop your front-line managers?
Marrinan: Yeah, absolutely. You're so right about manager training and enablement; they're critical. I've found that enabling our managers is even more important now, especially for hybrid and remote companies. This is especially true given that a large proportion of our managers have joined HubSpot remotely. So, investing in this area is crucial. Specifically for that group, we have a dedicated learning and talent development team that hosts something called "Leadership Foundations." This program is designed for new managers who have joined HubSpot or for those who have been promoted. It's worth noting that you can retake the Leadership Foundations course if you need a refresher. This course walks through the entire lifecycle of being a manager and offers various skills and training sessions for our managers.
Additionally, we offer self-service leadership courses that are created by our learning and talent development team. These courses focus on important topics such as coaching, feedback, and performance management – areas that are highly relevant at HubSpot. Alongside this, we provide a wealth of self-service materials, particularly pertaining to hybrid enablement. These materials address some of the most practical and frequently asked questions, such as "How do I host an off-site?" or "How can I effectively manage performance conversations when I'm not physically present with my employees?"
Learning from other managers has also proven to be a successful approach. While the theory is valuable, learning from the experiences of others is often more consumable and practical. Our self-service enablement materials include insights from fellow managers, offering valuable perspectives on what works and what doesn't.
In addition to our internal efforts, we have a program called "Hub Tox." This initiative brings in external experts to educate us on relevant topics. We've recently launched a program for our manager population called "The Coaching Corner." Through this platform, managers can connect with peers to discuss critical topics. We've had the privilege of hosting remarkable individuals like Marcus Collins, who shared insights from his book "For the Culture" about building an inclusive culture. We're excited to host Dom Price from Atlassian, and Kim Scott from Radical, known for her work on building a radical culture, will be joining us in September.
Kruse: Fantastic. Let me have a few more minutes; unfortunately, with this short-format podcast, I'm gonna move kind of quickly. Related to culture, are there any special initiatives or results you’re most proud of?
Marrinan: wanted to give a plug, Shamus plug, to our newly launched initiative called Connect4. Off the back of our recent Emps survey, we found that upon moving to a hybrid organization, people feel disconnected from others outside of their teams. The idea of Connect4 was to build ways to connect Hubspotters together in a virtual world, considering that not everyone is in an office. The focus is on connecting with purpose, ease, and equity, regardless of your location. Ensuring sustainable connections is also a priority. This means that connection doesn't solely entail flying everybody around the world. We're highly focused on ESG and on achieving net carbon 0 by 2040. That's the hyper goal.
Kruse: Awesome, admirable goal. What book would you recommend that your colleagues read? (or podcast, video, etc.)
Marrinan: I would send... I'm gonna do a radical calendar situation because we're also focused on high performance right now. We're definitely trying to teach the behavior of giving candid and empathetic feedback. So, I'd say "Reach" by Scott Radical Calendar. I always learn something when I read that, and I encourage everyone to do the same — books.
Kruse: That's great. Is there a particular one? What skill or behavior do you wish your employees did more of?
Marrinan: It is a good question, like, I do think I do come back to the radical calendar piece. I think that because we're so focused on transparency, kind of remarkability, and empathy, we are trying to build a high-performing culture. Often, they can feel at odds with one another. Like, how can you give feedback in a way that is not overly empathetic? And ultimately, we want to make sure that we're focused on results and we're kind of doing that in the right way.
So I would ask all of our HubSpotters to lean into feedback and make sure that we're helping collectively build an organization of the future. We're also helping our peers and our managers grow in the right way. And so, practicing feedback, cause it's tough, but making sure that, yeah, it's direct, kind, and clear is the way to go.
Kruse: And what is exciting you the most about HubSpot right now?
Marrinan: Yeah, you know what? I'm actually really proud of the fact that we are still committed to being a hybrid organization. I think every day, you see more companies that are returning to an office situation, and we're not. And I think if anything, it's a homage to our culture. We are trying to build an inclusive culture, and flexibility is so core to that. People need to work where it suits them best.
I think we're trying to be really loud and show that actually, our most engaged employees are remote employees. Our sales team and our engineers are as productive remotely as they are in an office. And so I'm proud of that for sticking with us. We're going to do whatever we can to influence others to come with us.