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Sanjay talks about his experience of working towards facilitating and accelerating the growth of the geospatial industry worldwide and raising awareness of the industry‘s value proposition and contribution to world’s economy and society.
The NewSpace India podcast brings you insights by providing glimpses of the past, addresses the present challenges and installs a vision for the future from experts who have been involved in India's space activities.
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Narayan: [00:00:00] Hi, you're listening to the new space in their podcast. A biweekly doc show that exclusively brings insights from the Indian space activities ecosystem. I'm your host nine, the co-founder of India's first space focused think tank spaceport, Sarah, by guests on the new space in depth podcast. Help you understand space activities related macro and micro trends within India in all aspects, including space history.
Local industry space, science, technology, evolution, law, and policy art, and more, the new space in their podcast is supported by Dassault systems, a global leader in providing businesses and people that collaborative virtual environments to enable sustainable innovations. That's all system solutions, support startups, small and medium scale enterprises and original equipment manufacturers in developing disruptive solutions.
For space, lunges and satellites. Hi, and welcome to yet. Another episode of the new [00:01:00] space in their podcast. Today, we have Anil who is heading the Satcom industry association of India, which is a new industry association that is supporting. The capitalization of the reforms in the country for space industry development and has worked extensively in supporting all types of companies to then make the pie of the space industry bigger than.
So I know, thank you so much for taking the time again and welcome to the show. So now let's begin with a little bit about your own background before we come into what SIA India does so that we then make a frame of what you do. And then what is it that is in harmony with what you are trying to do with SIA India?
So to begin with, can you briefly talk about what led you into believing that we need something like an SIA India as of today? Has led you to, basically taking a apart towards creating such an industry association,
Anil: 2019, [00:02:00] I'll we starting having a feeler from the government where his policy, which has a copy of the way and the policies one after the other.
Just start to be doing also the draft board, but some of other are getting into consultation process with the stakeholders I do while this was happening. And I was getting feedback from the industry. The government is
Getting reform plate reform. But then , it has to be a body which could provide interface between corporate and the district. At when we started looking around, we did find eddies every single satellite industry body, which
And that time the group of people, what part of the satellite industry of professional? We started to thinking about how we can start with, and finally do some party. We finalized that we should go ahead with the. We need to start[00:03:00]
and we started to tweak what it, their bylaws, their objectives, and also registration process. So then we we to being at the officially we'll launch on 30th March of 2020. But so we start giving you. At the start to this legal advisor, to the various issues, we should make us to the space.
If we feel that we know for all of that time, that we must create a body, which was a device of the industry.
Narayan: And so from what you've said, I think the key factor is actually the timing that there is today, a need. And also, I guess the willingness on the government's part as well. Open up the industry to the larger industry that is present.
So when you look at what you are trying to do with SIA, India, what [00:04:00] are the primary goals and objectives that you'll see for SIA India? And how do you see this playing out? In the coming. Yeah.
Anil: When we, I think you offered the presentation, issued at me form that the basic that there's a broad ecosystem in the country.
I think they're all working in silos. And I did read you start to break everybody or agree to the ecosystem, whether they are manufacturers. The service provider, those satellite operators or the system integrator or large because the ground segment people and all we taught that it is a time that we should bring them all what platform, because the one we to each of the ecosystem and we try to represent all these people who have related to Sophia.
Some contribution in dubs up the space. They can't be in the country. So that's the objective which we have set for. [00:05:00] Okay. And the budget is basically to provide a, kind of a thought leadership for the satellite industry, which truly to present their voice to the corporate level, whether it be policy or making or regulatory or the licensing battles or all the standard edition matters that we discussed.
So we also feel strongly that. The satellite should be our first priority. As I said, like a set light to services or application to be used, should be used all day or they give it priority rather than is circulate to start more application to to be happy. So that's the area. I We feel that there is a gap that I think.
What's reasonable wise, that satellite should be used at the first instance. And that's where we are. What raising a concern with our various policy and regulatory body. If we start giving the frustration to that, [00:06:00] and we have created a it group within our association depressive different verticals.
Like for example, we have in space infrastructure committee, which deals with the large space industry are they have their own issues and that we have a startup ecosystem the startup has their own issues and we have also that get me out. Where we feel that I could be outreach or cardiac tapestry building program need to be hardness.
And we have another baby of the community, which is basically the government to especially like is slow or delayed to institutions. . So at what rate, we also feel that space law is also play partner goals. We also created a separate committee, which deals with the space law. Of course, the policy instructor position with one of our committee.[00:07:00]
So these are the various committees, like trust group, which we set forth, that they're all working that they're trying to break. Issues or table, and that we discuss that, that, that recommendation we send out group concern, honestly. So this is the basic pre-work, which we are we have created at working on.
That's
Narayan: a really interesting from what you mentioned, especially I think the involvement of people within these committees, I think will allow a lot of diverse group of opinions. Comments coming in to be then consolidated in one way or the other to make sure that the suggestions are all comprehensive at the end.
So when you look at how the sector is evolving in India, Do you have a sense of how big is the space industry today and, given the reforms that you are also pushing for now, what could happen in the next three to five years? If some of these things come to fruition, [00:08:00] I
Anil: think all credit goes to the current government.
They have if they have a thousand publicly and also policy. The space industry or space industries at UVA, it's a business stage. What are the achievement we have done so far? That is, which is circular out the slope at the industry, which has been created that is also heavily dependent on.
at this movement, the sector is close to 7 billion, which is two to 3% of the global market, which is growing the two, three $60 billion. So we feel that this set of performance, which is. I have not. The Quincy at Mercer is really that will boost our size of the market. And we will be able to touch upon some pretty close to what, 50 billion us, dollar 30.
That's the projection that also this also we're creating a lot of private sector [00:09:00] initiative to compete. Let me in terms of the new activities, which basically destroyed my, the debris committee art observation space to reserve set late launches, deep space exploration. And the, of course I played broadband.
These are the new travel of the space economy. We feel that this will definitely
That opposite and also creatively a association with the private sector, the reason to not show whether it is a mission audit or the audit Mars mission, they have roll into that. And also the launch is it's a plate launches or launches of the private sector is also . We, that did is gore and we get the right there.
We believe that the next two to three years of war, most people are to go set that up, [00:10:00] set the ball rolling in the right direction. So we will be able to position ourselves with the global specific. And DDR have their own space that we feel really strongly at though, or what area we feel that this is happening because there's a new e-juice companies have copied dragging this basic, the street move to squinting a new area to work on.
Or we feel that this is going to be new for idea in the group. So far, the space was not much coated in that we believe the next couple of years, this will cardboard with the view, a newer crop growth industry
Narayan: sector. And one of the things that is of course, very relevant in this sector is that everybody has a different focus and the size of the company maybe slightly.
And, the nature of the work, they may be very different as well. You have smaller companies like startups that have [00:11:00] a completely different focus of trying to develop some new products and they're taking risks. And there are SMEs that are established and they are serving as role programs or so on.
And their focus may be a little bit different and you have very large companies like hooks or Airtel or others who have a different focus. And, maybe are aiming at something much. Then these other types of companies, which are much smaller can do. So is there anything specific that you can identify that are important for, all of these kinds of companies that you think are important to be addressed as of now?
Anil: I believe that to the startups who are. Quite to active and space startups. And it is the, this is a starting to about two decades earlier at the start two companies copying and start working on the space. Technology and [00:12:00] the numbers are quite good at as often, we will call dog. There are 50 active startups.
If you'd be up at, when we're looking at these numbers into Asia-Pac region, before that this is a good one. Like total Asia-Pac reserve. There's going to be about 390 startups company. Don't start up companies, which 50 of them are. And what Harvard of China at the 50 plus utopia and , so we see that to India,
times of the startup companies of concern. But these startups need to be and the government has to play a very proactive. Protecting their interest, protecting their intellectual property, protecting their future plot and also helping them to grow or collaborate with it'd be the, of companies.
What did we feel that first of all, it has to be clear space law and space policy, the absence of [00:13:00] these space. We repeated that the policy could be subject to different interpretations. So if we use that, the space act has to be elected as early as possible. And in 2017, there was a tech was there in the parliament to bring a specific location bill that is not being.
Not finalize. And secondly, that a space startup should be getting with a different set of rules rather not the corporate rules and regulations because these are the deep space tech companies that there are very few of them. If you look at the numbers of the startups CPT at this
Close to 36,000 numbers. Where is the space startups? Only 50 of them. I think this be this required a separate group heavily by the government, not the state with the large skew of the stair startups, where DPIA T, which is a , which is promoting the [00:14:00] interest of the industry where the startups are.
It should be greatly disappointed to have the space to start up and all the rules, our policy should be gored separately with that, and they should be allowed to use a regulatory sandbox. So wherever they are, we can expand it bit where they're doing some testing and they should be given that. Oh, what is the block taps up there?
Reading theater or getting equate, tested all importing a set of components for their product. They have to really struggle a lot. So the government has to play the facility role to helping the startup. That's also the frequency, because the oldest frequency at that corporate distributor, I've lived with the separate frequency at ease to that wherever they need for expert [00:15:00] purpose of productive.
So they should be liberal and all the clearances processes should be simplified with the ease of big business, especially with the startup. So these these, we have departed from the site and we are working with the government to simplify these procedures.
Narayan: Yeah. I That's a really interesting as well as very necessary from all of these, I guess the problem also is that many of these companies may not have the.
The leverage and also presents in Delhi to a large extent, to talk to a lot of the policymakers, to make anything happen for them, given that a lot of them come from also, from different parts of the country and it's going to be difficult for them to interface using a single body without a single body.
That is from what you are doing at the moment. Are there any like specific, requirements that come to your mind for. Either, larger companies that are operating in outside [00:16:00] the startups we are, because I think normally what happens is in the public discourse as well, startups and smaller companies that highlighted a lot because.
I feel like that's the new energy that is coming into play. But what is also lost is actually that most of the employment and most of the money comes from large companies that operate in the industry and they are the ones who contribute the most in terms of jobs, as well as the impact that they can create on the economy.
So beyond just the, startup related questions and so on what are the primary things? When you look at large operators are presented the. Their main focus areas and what would make it feasible for. Foreign direct investment and other things to come in for larger operators to either become bigger or new large operators to be then present in the country.
Anil: I think the larger industry has got their own or their own issues or problem at I believe that party of them, the larger dusty likes like [00:17:00] other sector or Astra or. The these are the large company which have grown around the slow and they have been supporting you through their their production facility last 20 years.
And they build up quite a large capacity with that. And but the other thing is that with the whole they're they are heavily dependent on the pandemic. You see that. It still has the last year we have two. And one was not very successful. So the, this industry was expecting to play their role in other launches also, but be prepared to be there.
Those launches could not happen. So their investment is quite subject to that. And then they're also having dependent of the budget, which is, who has got at which is also depend on their benefit sharing or their working capital. But over the period of time, they have built a, quite a large capacity with them.
And most of the time their chemistries are underutilized. They're worried about their investment and opening up the [00:18:00] space before they'll also looking for collaboration. Where they did get victory could help them to the ground segment or some corporate of the satellite or launch vehicles.
So there, they're also looking for it. So that is the one issue. Another issue is which is phased by the large multinational companies. They are working for the defense or the space project with the country. But at the same time, they also work for this space in this space sector. But the one problem which we found that these companies let's say the opposite.
The specific list included offset obligation. So to that, because these we did company, large Indian company also worked with the multinational companies in their defense projects or vice versa. But two, when it comes to the opposite obligation these larger agencies are not able to observe obligations with this space companies that.
[00:19:00] Specific tissue dots will be included to offset. So the, it will help me to call what is that? It will bring the the, has the capabilities of the companies and they will truly become large enough global competitive. And
It comes from the export. That's also the. When the corporate is requiring any equal the defense space side. So I think it did companies will also come up to the level where they could play their role. So this , we also, the second thing we found that the, most of the benefits. Company that got trained, whether it is electronics or whether it is a other sector, automobile, other sector, there is production LICO scheme instead of the scheme is not applicable in the space sector.
So we also depart that PLS speed should be limited to a class the manufacturing, the country. So these these few things, which we feel that too, if we took off into state. We have a recitation to the it on these two counts. [00:20:00] You feel that if this would be implemented, this will definitely work of what they did, large infection.
Narayan: I think those are all very interesting when it comes to, how the focus areas and the requirements are also quite different depending on the nature of the company and the activity that they are doing at the end. So from your perspective, what could make it looking at outwardly, not just inwardly.
What I mean by that is that so far what we looked at is what can you do and what then the industry do to look at expanding their footprint within India and how do they actually provide services within the Indian context. So on, do you also see an opportunity, for. Having to help some of these companies to globalize to a certain extent, because one of the things that I see to a large extent missing is a lot of these companies are purely operating within the Indian context and are operating [00:21:00] as service providers within India.
And today, given that the world economy is all global and there's globalization of trade and many companies outside of India, including the ones in China, for example, Operators multinational companies and they provide Satcom services and other services that are satellite related outside in all parts of the world.
And we see very little evidence of that with Indian companies where they are not just operating in India, but they are now trying to go global there. So do you see any specific things that would be all aid and support that you guys can do with SIA? And then hopefully that will lead to some other things.
Then opening up to our companies also then participating in the global.
Anil: We had working on the vertical direction of this Lord. We understand that India is a small at this movement but we have we have a quite large capacity at professionals of liberal with the space sector. I've been told that the large number [00:22:00] of scientists are working with NASA or European space agency or likewise, other.
Especially agencies. So we do have kind of a knowledge pool but the they should stay too. They just eat. So we have to depend on the Boulevard, cooperation. First of all, we did it last couple of years. That we have established too close relationship with international association or bodies.
So there are already other, they are also on our advisory board or we have a sponsorship with them, or we have a sub, some of them, we have a working relationship. We also work strongly with the standardization.
So we feel the global competition is the key of the hour because satellite is a global
the country specific to become a global. So of course the footprint would be their particular country or maybe region, or [00:23:00] if we have a constellation that you are a complete global. Couple of a large constellation or mega constellations and Leo Abele. Also see that there's maybe a couple of houses going to be holding hovering on the Skype next to two to three years.
Those lose, of course the satellites are being built or Sinclair vector software, or big, large trucks up there. Why can't we be a, be the destination? So from that we see the global competition between that
Launches that are happening almost indicate if there was successfully through is logic. But not only the political for the small set lights of deficit, large, the cube set lights are coming into the serving dish area. For that also, we may not be having that big market in India, but this market do exist.
Legal promises that they're to to work. So we believe that a lot of Google's companies are making
Not necessarily for the market, but it [00:24:00] could also put the global bucket. So we feel strongly that the collaboration, a foreign company set up a shop in India or India companies go out to work for the foreign companies. Quite essential to group of this space. So we are, we understand this, that we are building blocks for this collaboration.
Of course, we are planning this year, a couple of business to business beads. We have the global company, the local company, a local company beats a global. There was very few attempts have been taken. To bring the space. A company's only this slow by beach to take place with a large global company.
COVID companies really have put up their shop, but the small computer companies that hardly have any access to the global companies. So we're trying to bridge this gap and bring all this stuff to what. Yeah, we are trying [00:25:00] to build up some beaver. So this year we
but we will be finalizing that to help take those people in a local reach global, a global reach local. And we also need that. We also can play a bigger role in regional affiliation like Nepal.
I like since we have quite a good satellite expertise, this expertise could be helped. And we see that there's already something happening in Nepal. Other technologies and we are science and technology. There's a color picture the extremity competition for the testing of those satellite and that we had some collaboration is already started at the digital level,
Narayan: Again, very interesting blocks or in areas that you've identified. Having talked to a lot of these people around. When, you're [00:26:00] looking at this roadmap for the next, let's say six to eight months that are around. And it looks very interesting, especially because a few draft policies have come into place and there's been a revision of the Satcom policy and others as well.
So it looks like there's going to be very interesting things that will come out as formalization of these policies will come into play in the next, maybe six to 12 months timeframe. With all of this into place, there's a number of companies that are still, I'm guessing are looking at getting support and are looking at maybe joining a, something like an SIA, India to be involved in the greater sphere of influencing policy, as well as getting support in terms of trade.
What is it that companies can do to either join SIA? And what are the things that you would look at offering these companies? Is it like events or other than, other support with respect to [00:27:00] basically talking to the government or other than that, is there other things that companies can get.
Anil: There are a couple of things with you is working at helpless. These companies, first of all, the I could divide them into two categories, but the threat and other opportunities, the satellite operators, the field threat tops of those, their satellite bandwidth is a locating to the 5g IMT in India.
And there's already a regulatory is already consultation. I will see, Andrea has a strongly refuted, dark plate of a karmic out to a bifurcating satellite back to the 5g. So this tech looms quite large satellite operator right there. The CIB has stamps quite tall in terms of representing the issue very strongly with not with the regulator, but also the policy because.
So I played. When is that essential for the growth topic for the country at the, for applications, which they can [00:28:00] provide you tubs are connected hula realia, which is close to what 51% rural India is still not digitally connected and satellite can play an important role. So under these thread to be, we are getting rowdy tops off one voice
Their wives to the corporate. And these coffee fields are strongly to sport, to CID as enjoy. So this is a, the large picture other picture, which have the opportunity, which I just mentioned aboard. There are two opportunities are coming in the way. What is the opportunity of the blog segment, where the regulatory has already coupled with the consultation with CID?
Also, in fact, we also into circulate grout Current segment the business. We have touch upon the regulatory and policy. We touch upon the business account. We will touch upon the standard audition process. So we feel there is a, there's a, this is, this industry can grow and they will be a lot of collaborations will [00:29:00] cover up the company, the large company, whether it's often called poppy goes or providing a second guard station.
And there is a definitely de-linking satellite for the licensing of the operation. So that's the, what we, other than any of you just coming up with the satellite IOT application. Then I also feel that way too big, a personality for those separate IOT companies to set up a shop, yet companies start providing a business application, which are IOT these numbers.
A couple of thousands or hundreds of billions would be, so I feel it is too strong, a vigil opportunity, which you copy, which are connected with these, whether it's adult segment or whether it's through IEP of ligature they can get benefit of joining.
Narayan: We've seen a number of drafts come through with respect to the policy changes, especially in the Satcom policy.
They're more sensitive policy. There's a few of them that have come through now with the technology [00:30:00] transfer and so on from all of the things that you have seen so far as drafts, and then, multiple modification of these drafts and so on. Are there aspects that you believe that still need to be addressed beyond the, what is today?
Seen as a draft policies that have already come through that are still missing, that you want to highlight. And these may be very interesting to, to listen to, because at the end, this may be, some of the cracks that have not been addressed yet that can then be highlighted for.
Anil: Yeah. In last two years, we see plethora for policies are being around.
So other draft board this is really encouraging that they are going to, according to the public stakeholder consultation that was never the case earlier, the space policy space, core policies have core policies. We discussed publicly, but there's a really good site that the.
We had a stakeholder for consultation. The space cop draft policy was discussed with the stakeholders [00:31:00] and the revised space policy was recently discussed after the in space was formed. And we have gone through the policy and we have very constructive proposal how effectively we can make this policy.
Of course, one thing is that the policy We should appreciate that there are policy framework is getting ready and fine-tuning the policy policies and not, not only what time it is, it's always evolving it every time the new policy comes to replace the old policy. So we, there is always room for improvement whether it's the current policy or the future policy, we can always only thing is that we have to get it to the.
Where we can truly represent the industry concern industry boys. If the business is that deputy reflect to through these policies I had first of all, a good thing is that there are 30, not policies are in the pipeline. And as announced by media, that three of them should get finalize. The and the rest of them [00:32:00] will follow.
So what I believe that is an evolving process. And the first good thing is that there are policy at that this policy are there to address our needs, whether it relate to transport or observation or mood sensing, whether it is a space call. These policies are there that definitely they will they will guide certain ways to put the for the two companies.
At CID, I would definitely like to get into active engagement with the corporate on this policy. Of course, we feel that this topic two, three years, as I mentioned, are going to be the crucial and these will set the role for how a whole best suited we are going to prepare.
a truly global, so that will definitely.
Narayan: So there's been also some very interesting investment that is taking place in the country, not just to startups, by venture capitalists or so on, but also larger companies who are looking at investing, [00:33:00] especially when you look at companies like QCs or Airtel or others like that, who are putting in a lot of capital to bring in new, interesting new products and services through the Satcom realm.
So with all of this enthusiasm that is coming into play where do you think we need to look at measuring some of these things because one of the things that we look at other countries like the UK or the us or so on, one of the things that they have done very well is looked at what is the measure of the industry when it comes to.
Either investment either the number of jobs that are being created or the impact on the economy or so on. And unfortunately, I think in India, we don't really have anything that points to some of these local factors that can be pointed and told to policymakers that this is what is the investment that is occurring in this sector.
And. How large the economy can be. If the cycle, this particular activity can be [00:34:00] supported or so on. At least I haven't seen something very concrete and there's been some very big numbers saying that the size of the space industry in India is $7 billion or whatever number that is without any substantiation of a why is that number that big.
So do you feel like this is a particular topic that India should be targeting and tackling. And if we asked, what are some of the insights that you can share around this particular sizing and monitoring the space economy in India? Yeah,
Anil: I think this is a very positive step taken by the companies.
The party has. They could meet one and also the collaboration, which they have a joint venture, which they have homes with Hughes. That is a really positive direction. Of course the doctor medical has also collaborate with. And he said that is also, and other company moved out floor.
Like they will also look what the departments to [00:35:00] commit. I think this this show that.
But I feel there will be some very strong tripling effect to will happen that these large companies will start operating one space. X started eight or 10. He said a lot of people would come to. First of all, they were trying to reach with this more connectivity, antitrust, we connect with the higher bandwidth.
So if there is a jobs would be created in terms of the local collaborations,
would also be required at affordable rate. And it would be the, we shouldn't get ready to. This thick, we also feel there's also room for for this local bit fixing to happen. And so the space, because we'll figure out in different states the catalyst space park or. [00:36:00] Eric Risa on the Teladoc.
I believe that these are already at marks, the space for the vendor space for this delivered cluster of the space industry. So these are the books. And now once this do large company, like step four is the other large computers also start playing a role, evolved into space switches are the Godridge dilettante.
And of course, over our PSU, like electric. And the IDI, they all know really get involved into somebody other that have been to this industry. So I believe this is a good site that it, the companies that start to politically to investigate to this is caught me. So final
Narayan: question a little, thank you so much for taking the time for speaking with me.
I think all the work that you guys have been in doing is very [00:37:00] interesting. And of course, thank you for giving me an opportunity to participate in the work that you guys have been doing. I think I've also learned quite a lot by contributing in one way or the other, whatever possible manner to be a part of the event.
And also some of the work that has been going on in supporting the industry in India, through SIA, India. And one of the key things I think the listeners will probably will appreciate is your perspective on where do you see all of this heading in the next. Three to five years from from an SIA India's perspective and from the industry's perspective.
And what do you see as key things that need to occur so that, maybe in the next three to five years, The reach to a level where, the industry is super competitive. Maybe we would have grown two times in size with respect to jobs or others. Some of these things from your perspective to listen to will be super interesting.
Anil: Yeah. Thank you for inviting C idea to [00:38:00] present our views. We wish you all the best and continue a journey for big deal. We start to to fully support. The next three to five years, I just mentioned about there. A couple of policy used to draft the draft board. They will start picking shapes that which will further guide the industry to growth.
I see. They will be lot more. Projects will be allowed to buy by the dead industry or the forest industry to couple with the setting of a shop in India. I see a lot more collaborations to happen. I see. There will be a role for startup as a as a growing at their leading. The flock which are which are just to follow them because at least startups it's on defense or to how successful they would be in their journey.
So I think the next two, three to five [00:39:00] years, the new flock will come which will follow them. So I see. And I also see that is a larger role played by the large industry. The small industry to copy the corporation. This was going to happen in next three to five.
that this is a this setting up the formation of the the new new economic growth in the space area. And it will be caught that it will be for the stone for setting up the position in the global hub. And I contact this with the most gluteus or golden. Which will be the bedrock of the future specific on B.
So these two to five years are very important, very crucial. It tops up setting up the, set, the ball, rolling the policy, they invest parent collaboration that can be on the investment. All this will cover.
Narayan: Thank you again so much for taking the time. I think [00:40:00] it's very interesting. The work that you guys have been doing is very important and very interesting at the end.
And I'm sure that, if the industry is to be successful the work that you guys are doing will be the bedrock of all of that. And I really believe that because at the end, I think we need a Weiss, like you would. To be present and to be supportive of the industry at the end. So thank you again for all the work that you guys do.
And thank you again for being on the show.
Anil: Again, I'll give you an opportunity to speak on bail. Folks said computers. Yes. Thank you.
Narayan: Thank you for listening into this episode of the new space and debt podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please share this episode with anyone you believe will enjoy listening to it.
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