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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
Lysa TerKeurst:
This is Lysa TerKeurst, and you're listening to Therapy & Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. Dealing with the aftermath of someone else deeply disappointing us can leave us hurt, weighed down with heavy emotions, and doubtful of God's justice. If you're wondering if it's possible to find the healing perspective you're longing for, I created a free resource just for you called “When the Person Who Hurt You Got Away With It: 3 Days to Moving Forward,” and it pairs perfectly with today's episode topic. Together we'll have space to acknowledge our hurt, ask some hard questions, and find the healing perspectives we need. Just click the link in the show notes to get this resource for free today. Now on to the show.
Well, we said we were going to continue this very important discussion on goodbyes. Now we've talked a lot about good boundaries, and so if you've missed any part of that conversation, I want to remind you that good boundaries are really what should be applied and kept consistently first. But when we hit this point where either the relationship becomes unsustainable because it's gotten so unhealthy or possibly even unsafe or we have to just accept a goodbye because the other person has literally walked away from us, whatever the case may be, we need to know what to do. And I've said this before but ... I've been a Christian for a really long time, and I have been in countless Bible studies and lots of sermons, and yet I felt like this was so important for us to tackle because before studying this for the writing of this book and the living of this message, I've never been taught about how to say goodbye.
When I researched that word “goodbye,” I actually found that its origin was, "God be with ye," and then it was shortened to “God B-Y-W-E,” and then it was eventually shortened to “goodbye.” But there's this notion that the goodbye was never supposed to be a harsh shoving away or a situation where it's like, "Goodbye and good riddance." It really was in our heart, no matter how that relationship ends, being able to get to the place that we can say, "I'm releasing this person because the relationship is not going to continue." And maybe even keeping our heart soft or willing enough to heal in the direction of eventually being able to say, "And God be with you."
And that's hard; it's challenging. And I don't want to minimize the emotional turmoil and trauma. So, Jim, I want to turn to you first. When someone walks away from us, how can we really process this in a healthy way? And, again, I just cannot emphasize enough because I personally know the heartbreak that comes along with this that I don't want it to just seem like I'm asking this question and we have this quick protocol and then you're going to be healthy. It's quite a process.
Jim Cress:
Well, the words again, come right to the fore of this thing when someone walks away from you, and so they are walking away. I do believe so many times in God's Word that people walked away from God — the rich, young ruler, which we've talked about before — and God didn't necessarily go chasing them down or at times to even turn them over to themselves. I think there's a template or a paradigm there, and we've said it so many times that when someone shows you who they are, believe them. And they are really walking away.
But, look, it's not just they're walking away. Listen to the words: They're walking away from you. They really are saying, "I don't want to be in the relationship." So if they leave at that moment, what will change in them that they say, "I think I want to come back." Which I see in the counseling world all the time: "I want to come back." Well, what's different about when you wanted to walk away, go to a counselor somewhere and examine, "I've seen the light. I want to come back." What light have you seen? And so when someone is walking away and they don't try to come back to you, you can believe that as well they're leaving you and the relationship.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And that doesn't necessarily even mean that this other person has always said, "I'm walking away from you, or I'm leaving you." It could be that they're saying with their mouth, "Oh no, I'm fully committed to you." Or "Oh no, I want to be with you. I want to be in a relationship with you." But it's their actions or maybe their reactions or maybe even their attitude that says their heart is not connected to that process. Even if they physically stay, that doesn't mean that they are emotionally still there and invested in the relationship.
Jim Cress:
Invested is key. I believe a lot of people like the old quote, "Some people die at age 25; they're just not buried to age 80." I believe a lot of people divorce. We've legalized the term, and I get it, but it just means cutting, severing, stopping, cutting: "I'm not doing this anymore." And there are a lot of people living a functional — I mean, in my experience a lot — are living a functional divorce, but they stay together financially, or they just settle, or they have just a good enough Christian marriage. I mean, we don't want a divorce, but inside that's more of a mirage than a marriage. Or even in a relationship of dating, you're just going on and saying, "Is this relationship growing and getting more intimate with each other, more close relationally, spiritually, or are we just stuck?" And people settle, which I think is terrible in a relationship.
So “divorce” is this big word, and I get it, but there are people who are living in active divorce in relationships, and a person says, "I'm not going to leave." Or the fun one I see — I guess it's not that fun, Joel — is, "I'm not going to take the low road. I'll wait and make you miserable enough or wait you out and finally maybe, or be unfaithful, then you'll divorce me." And then go, "Yep, she divorced me." I have seen that a lot.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And it's not just in marriage relationships.
Jim Cress:
That's right.
Lysa TerKeurst:
It can be in friendships too. And I think sometimes we just feel so stuck that we don't know what to do. And so just ghosting the person or in a friendship just creating enough distance by not texting back, not agreeing to go somewhere. And so the goodbye just sort of happens. But when that happens, or really when any goodbye happens, we have to know how to process this in a healthy way. Jim and Joel, I want you to both weigh in on this because when we hit the spot in a relationship, we want to be able to pursue help for ourselves from here.
Jim Cress:
Nice tee up on this thing because what I literally just thought when you said, "Jim and Joel to come in," it's what we do in Therapy & Theology. What we're doing here in this bonus material is to go and examine it therapeutically, get some good wise counsel, and say and use the word “process” — "Let's process." I use a strong term here: Let's “autopsy” this thing. What was in the relationship? Let's dissect it and say this and that. So I do that therapeutically and then to do it also theologically.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, I think that's so good, Jim. One of the things that I often want to point out is in the New Testament; it's hidden a little bit because of the way the English works, but Paul often uses second person plural. When we read “you,” — and this is a tragedy of our individualist society today — we read “to you” and I think me, and yet when Paul is writing to the church in Ephesus or to the church in Corinth and he's saying “you,” it's second person plural; it's you all ... it's y'all that are present.
And I think that this is a really important perspective because there's a presumption that Paul has that says the Christian life is supposed to be meant in the context of community. And so how in the world are we going to be able to process truly, authentically, genuinely, in a way that gives us insight at our blind spots, that gives us insight at the areas that we might not have an expertise in, if we don't have honest relationships with those that are around us.
And another just side note on this is, I think, one of those red flags tends to be when we're in relationships with people where it's almost like — and Jim, I'm curious what you think on this — that they almost take you out of the community that you're in and they put you into isolation.
Jim Cress:
Classic.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
So that it's much harder for us to get a clean vision over what's actually happening in our lives. Are these verses of Scripture ... does the life that is said publicly to live up to the character and image of Christ, are those things being worked out? Well, it's much harder to see when I've been iced out of all of my other relationships and I'm now kind of secluded into isolation.
Jim Cress:
You got to go old school here, but take a mound of charcoal for a good fire and just take one coal — they're hot coals; you're getting ready; you're going to have a nice barbecue — take that one coal, and sit it out over here, and everybody knows what happens with that. But if I can isolate you here — and that's what cults do by the way — it’s a whole another topic. But if I can isolate you here and say, "Is that person biblical?" "They don't know. They don't know our real story; they don't understand us." It's classic manipulation and control. So anyone watching this: Be aware if that person in your life is trying to isolate you. "No, don't go to therapy; don't listen to Lysa TerKeurst; don't read this " ... like that, the person who's manipulating there, they'll be very, very clear with trying to pull you back, and everybody will feel it if they're just aware.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's so helpful. So I think as we're trying to process in a healthy way, it's crucial that we don't isolate. It's also crucial that we, like you said, take an honest look at what is before us. And you've told me many times, Jim, mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs.
Jim Cress:
It's that last part that everybody tunes out on. It is not just a commitment to reality — as you said well here — it is at all costs. And what I see in relationships are, "But what will it cost me?" They revise the history back. "If this person" — even just a friend — "walks out, was our friendship real? What did it mean? How could they walk out?" We've said, “If it's hysterical, it's historical.” Where am I back in my life story where another friend or my parents divorced, or whatever. Just to not obsess, but to take a look and say, "Where is this hitting me historically?" I think usually it will hit me historically.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And one thing that I think I can tell that I'm processing this in a healthy way is when I acknowledge it's not just what happened to me. Obviously, I need to acknowledge the pain; I need to feel the pain. I need to deal with the pain so that I can heal from the pain. But at some point, I've got to stop focusing so much on all the details of what happened to me. And I've got to see there's something to be gained here if I will allow it to be a gain.
And that is ... there is transferable wisdom that I have learned. I've gained experiential wisdom that can be transferred to other people. And when I'm more focused on the details, I think I'm stuck. I'm not really healing and processing this goodbye in a healthy way. But when I'm focused on moving forward and taking the experiential wisdom that I've gained and making it transferable wisdom — something that can help other people going through this — and when I'm more focused on seeing my pain turn into a purpose of helping others where I was ... that's not only biblical, but also I think it's a great sign of healing.
OK, I have another question for you. In your counseling experience, Jim, how do you lead people through goodbyes in a way that don't allow them to be destroyed by someone else in the process or devastated to the point where they just cannot move on?
Jim Cress:
Well, I like to say that prepositions matter; they certainly matter in the Word of God. We've talked about this so many times before, but they matter in relationships. And you said, "How do I get through this?" And I help people in counseling work through things so that prepositions matter versus "Get me out of, let me get over, how do I just get around this?" It’s to walk through it. And, again, back to our theme of explore the facts and the impact of it.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I love what you're sharing there because sometimes I feel like, in my journey, my healing process has been long, and sometimes people will say to me, "When are you just going to get over this?" And it's like I get the sentiment because they don't want me to get stuck and they don't want me to park on just regurgitating the trauma— like we just talked about before — but there's this sense, "Can you just get over this?" And it's like, "No, because I'm a healthy person. I'm committed to staying healthy in my future. I'm not going to just get over this. I'm going to have to walk through this."
Jim Cress:
And we've talked so many times before, I believe we have a book on this topic of forgiveness, that one of the ideas of forgiveness is to cancel the debt. And you've told the story many times that in my office where I had you lay out the cards, this is a fact of what happened. And, folks, that's just a simple thing. And then what's the impact? And to go, "If I'm going to eventually move to forgive the person ..." Because forgiveness is really about me, it's about you forgiving the person so that you're not carrying around all this angst. So if I'm going to forgive them, I want to say, "Well, what is the debt? What does it cost me?"
And I think you don't want to do that just by yourself. You could journal or just have your Bible, good things. But to look and have someone say, "What's the impact? What did it do to me?" And even historically, "Where has this landed and impacted me on my own story?" If I'm going to forgive, fact and impact. And look at your own life story. We've said it before: Where has this most recent goodbye ... where has it touched on other goodbyes you've had to say? And I would say, my friends, including the goodbye of a pet, the goodbye of a friend; you had to move away, because often it will come back to these historical things. You don't have to obsess there, but get with a good counselor and say, "That is ... that's triggering me back when I had to say goodbye here and here."
Surround yourself with safe, trustworthy people. Back to Joel's thought here on community ... that they've really witnessed my life and said, "Hey, you're not crazy up in there. This makes sense." Or, "You've gone about as far as you can go. I've watched you be long-suffering and do everything." And we all need a fair witness to our lives and [inaudible] —
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
That's friendship. And, Jim, something that's important is there's something about longevity of relationship.
Jim Cress:
That's right. Yes.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And being a part of a local church and fighting for that depth of relationship. Because if we keep just jumping from pockets of social groups — and you've talked about this a lot, Jim — it's really easy to just present the best version of yourself for a period of time until you then shift to another place. And yet, that is, again, antithetical to the way that God would desire for us to be a part of community.
Jim Cress:
I think too, y'all, that it seems so simple, but accepting the other person where they are, that doesn't mean you're blessing them or approving mental health. Again, a commitment to that other person's reality at all costs. They've left; they're out in another relationship; they're living in sin — whatever. And I just do believe and say, "What you see is what you see." They are doing what they're doing, and accept it. Now deal with the pain and hurt that they're rejecting you. Or they maybe even moved on to another relationship.
And then just be aware too inside that there is a word we use, and sometimes it can be a little harsh. I'm not using it that way here, but it's called “shopping” for pain. Are you going out on the other person, the friend, family member, like a sibling or somebody, or a spouse, partner, whatever you want to call it, that they have gone out and they're saying things about you that are wrong or shopping for pain. "Let me go on their social media feeds or get someone else I know who can get on because they've blocked me," and you're just shopping for pain, seeing if they're saying or posting vague things [and thinking] I know that's about me. I've watched people just do that, and it's like I get why because you're shaming yourself there. And shame is always an attempted antidote to pain. It's just cutting going, "Well, that feels good for the moment."
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, I think that that is a big one ... is really going and trying to interpret how they must be feeling right now or how they must be thinking about me right now or covertly posting this because they want to get some message to me. And that may or may not be true. But regardless of what they're doing, if you don't see it and you don't receive it, then it cannot have the full impact on you that it does when you engage with it. But I think part of what's really hard is we can get the impression that this other person, who maybe did us wrong in the relationship or maybe betrayed us in some way, that they are now just free and out enjoying their life.
Jim Cress:
Having the time of their life.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Having the time of their life, and it feels so unjust. I'm sitting here grieving, and they're out there sinning and feeling great in their sin. And I tried to do the right thing, and I'm feeling awful in doing the right thing. And there can just be this sense of "I need justice here. This is so wrong." And I think we have to remember, in order to make peace and be able to move on, that sin always comes as a package deal with consequences.
Jim Cress:
Amen.
Lysa TerKeurst:
No matter what they look like, if they are living in active sin, they have unleashed the consequences of that sin in their life. I know when I sin, I unleash consequences, right?
Jim Cress:
Yes.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And so even if we don't see the consequences, even if we have no clue what those consequences are, we can absolutely know that God says to release this person to Him, that vengeance is His. So not only will God eventually address this with equal measures of justice and mercy, but also the sin itself contains a punitive aspect of it that sin is fun for a season and then it is not.
Jim Cress:
You've already gone here, but it really hits me again fresh and anew, the both therapeutic ... therapy ... side and the theological side of “God be with ye,” of goodbye. My goodbye is not, "Get out of here, you rascal; I hope God knocks you down." But it is literally, "You reap what you sow. And I'm taking you off of my hook, and what I want and all the injustice and demand and all that and delivering you, in my mind, God, I hand them over to You. May, God, You be with them, and they will be with You. And, God, it's up for You in Your own timing, in Your own way."
When I don't see it, [asking] When are You going to get them, God? David did that in the imprecatory psalms, other places. But goodbye is God be with you — you're in God's hands now. See, I don't have to just give them to ... "They abandoned me and left." No, I'm saying no — literally, God, they're Yours.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And here's the thought. What if the goodbye is a declaration of our belief and trust in God's sovereignty?
Jim Cress:
Yes. I love it.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, that's so good. Joel.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Our goodbye is actually the evidence that God be with you of saying, You know what? I believe it to be true in my mind, in my heart; I'm going to show through my actions because I trust God that You're sovereign. And, Lysa, you said it: We want justice. I think one of the questions we have to really consider is: Whose justice do we want? And, Joel, just speaking, "I want my justice."
Jim Cress:
"I want mine a lot."
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
"I want it to look like the way that it impacted me personally." And yet the story of the Good News of the gospel is a loving and gracious and kind God who has a way of working out all things together for good of those who love Him. And so when we can say, "God be with you," we can trust that in God's goodness and His authority and His power and in His control, He will deal out the right amount of justice, the right amount of consequence as is necessary. And honestly, that should give us a sense of deep relief. We no longer have to carry that burden on us.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And when we feel that deep angst, because I felt it; I know all of this. And yet sometimes even recently, even after writing all of this, studying all of this, doing all of this, I can still lie in my bed at night when I'm absolutely alone, and I feel the deep, deep angst of the unfairness. And that's when I have to say, "I'm releasing this other person." And that's not acknowledging that, "Now I'm OK with what they did," because it's OK for me to never be OK with what they did or to agree with what they did or to ever say it's not a big deal because it is a big deal. But in that release, it's me saying, "I have suffered enough because of what that other person has done." Jim, let's end today on a prayer that you like to declare. And it's a little bit of, I think, a shift of the serenity prayer. And I really liked it when you shared it with me. So do you mind sharing that as we wrap up today?
Jim Cress:
I will. And I'm going to have a handoff from you. Before I get to that, this is only going to take a second — I say to people, “If you don't grieve, the pain won't leave.” And with that is as I am there, and I say, God, I want to hand You this person in my mind. I want to hand them off to You. I believe ... I don't believe experientially you'll ever hand your grief over to God until you first hand that person over to God therapeutically and both theologically.
And so the serenity prayer that has been used in certain programs with a bit of a twist says this, God, grant me — I love that it's God giving me this! — God, grant me — And I will just show you how I pray this prayer every day of my life; I hold my hands open — God, grant me. So it's me touching hands with God. God grant me the serenity — and I just feel that in my body, to accept in this prayer and I release my hands; I do this in my prayer closet — to accept the people I cannot change. I need now the courage, strength, God, to change the one I can change and the wisdom I do head to heart, head to heart, and the wisdom to know, surrender, the only person I can really change is me.
Lysa TerKeurst:
So powerful. Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Joel.