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Melissa Emler and Mia Chmiel dive into designing learning environments with the core philosophy that barriers to learning exist in the environment, not in the kids. They discuss the origins of universal design in architecture and practical strategies for educators to create inclusive and adaptable learning spaces.
Creators & Guests
What is UDL Forward?
Mia Chmiel and Melissa Emler share all the strategies to make Universal Design for Learning easier to implement in your school or district. Learn more and join the community at udlforward.community
[00:00:00] Melissa Emler: Welcome to the UDL Forward Podcast, where we explore the latest and most innovative practices in universal Design for learning. I'm your host, Melissa ler. And I'm
[00:00:11] Mia Chmiel: Mia Smeal. Joining Melissa on this exciting journey as your co-host, as passionate advocates of udl, we're committed to bringing you the most real life conversations.
About the work of UDL implementation. In
[00:00:22] Melissa Emler: today's episode, we'll dive deep into the fascinating world of design, placing a special emphasis on the importance of empathy, learner variability, and reducing cognitive load. We'll discuss how these key elements contribute to a more inclusive. And effective learning environment for
[00:00:40] Mia Chmiel: all.
Furthermore, we'll dive into the power of multiple means of representation and expression, examining how these approaches empower learners to better understand, interpret, and communicate their ideas.
[00:00:51] Melissa Emler: So without further ado, let's get started on this exciting journey to enhance our understanding of empathetic design and the UDL principles that shape the future of education.
Yes,
[00:01:02] Mia Chmiel: let's move UDL forward.
[00:01:05] Melissa Emler: Awesome. Some. Here we are again, Mia. We are going to be talking about learning environments today. In last week's episode, we talked about learning design and the various differences between learning, experience, design, and lesson planning. So if you miss that episode, you will definitely want to head back into the queue and pick that up when you can.
And today we're going to continue talking about. The environment and the learning environment and how we design to create the best possible conditions for learning. So to get started, Mia, can you tell me about a space that you can remember learning in that strikes you as. Something that was different or exciting or awesome.
Can you take me to a space where you really remember learning?
[00:02:02] Mia Chmiel: So it's a space but it's not a physical space. I'm thinking about the U D L Forward community that both you and I have an opportunity to, to be a part of. And, um, we co-host together and. What I find so incredible about using a virtual space like we do for U D L Forward is that it, it helps folks be connected around the kind of learning that they want.
You know, to dive into that, they get to connect with people in similar roles who have similar lived experiences and talk about what's working for them, what they're wondering about resources that have been really beneficial for them. Sharing practices that they've worked on and, and have been able to help move the needle around U D L within their schools and within their context.
But I think about that virtual space and the fact that at any point in time, at any point during the course of the day, you can go there and there are people that, that are your people. And I think, you know, in, in the schools that I have a chance to, to support, Most of them are rural communities. Most of them, there are departments of one, like, I'm not making this up, right?
Mm-hmm. Like there is like the one social studies teacher in the high school, but those folks who don't have the opportunity to go down the hall and, and collaborate with a colleague around, you know, how do we provide some different options? For this assessment that we have coming up, or just thinking through like, man, this lesson today was terrible.
I need to talk through like what were the barriers in it and how do I not, you know, have this happen again? How do I avoid this? And I think about the virtual space that we've created and that folks have really been excited to collaborate in and how it provides us. That, that supportive environment that helps us learn and helps us think about, you know, what are those best practices and just to feel like part of a movement that oftentimes we don't have a chance.
To feel like we are part of other folks doing the same work. And that movement and that sense of connectedness in a virtual space for me has been so incredible. And, and just being able to see people connect in ways that I haven't before. Like I could talk about this for the next day. So I know we only have about half an hour, but Right.
Just thinking about those virtual spaces has been so, so incredible over the last year, year and a half. So
[00:04:40] Melissa Emler: it's interesting you bring that up because there's a lot of things to unpack in that experience of learning in a virtual space online, and I think we should acknowledge that. Covid really accelerated the adoption of virtual spaces and virtual learning.
While virtual learning, especially in Wisconsin, has been around for over 20 or 25 years. Shout out to Don Nordeen, who was very instrumental in getting the virtual learning environments going in our state and across the country many, many years ago. But what Covid did is it didn't. There was no other option.
And so we had to start to think about our digital learning environments and be really intentional. Even if it wasn't our choice to learn online, we had no choice, so we had to be very intentional about those learning spaces, those virtual learning spaces that we designed. So I think we should dig into that a little bit.
And the other piece that comes up that I heard you say is the idea of belonging. And while you didn't say anything about belonging, I think that that's what you were indicating, that your sense of belonging in this new virtual. Space where we come together to learn about udl, which if you wanna join us in that space, it's just UDL community.
That's the space we're essentially talking about. But essentially what you're talking about is like the sense of belonging that you feel when you're in that space, because there's other people on the same journey as you in that space. And the other thing that I think is important is that we always talk about u D l forwards community as the always on, always available space.
And so when you're feeling just a little bit outside of your realm, you can come into our space for some inspiration. So there's lots of things to unpack there. What are you thinking, Mia? And
[00:06:42] Mia Chmiel: I'm, I'm thinking about the flip side of that too. Right. So what about when we are together face-to-face and some folks, you know, when we think about the learning environment, I reflect on one of the networks that I run outside of U D L, and it's a group of folks who we come together quarterly.
It is face-to-face. We have a different kind of learning. The face-to-face environment provides us just, you know, different opportunities, right? Different ways that we can learn together. We also have a virtual space, and it's been really cool to watch over the course of this school year, how that network uses the virtual space for those quick questions or like a quick shout out, Hey, this was something cool that happened in my classroom today, and that connectedness for them.
Has helped our face-to-face conversations be even more rich and to build an even stronger community than they had the opportunity to build in previous years. And I truly see those connections that are built in the quick chats that they share with each other as being beneficial and, and being what they need in the right moment.
When we do come together that time is, is really purposeful because they've already determined wh where are we going with this? So when I think about the learning environment, we also need that balance of some folks really do thrive in a totally virtual space. Other folks need that hybrid. Connected, you know, in real time in a Google space or a chat space or you know, the U D L forward community that we have and they want to meet and be able to talk personally.
But understanding that the learning environment itself plays such a crucial role when we think about helping people come together and learn and being able to build off of each other's expertise.
[00:08:40] Melissa Emler: Absolutely. So I think. In having options for how and when we gather, we're really doing a good job of eliminating barriers that might come up for people in different environments.
So if virtual isn't your preference, You are supporting those people by having that quarterly gathering and potentially people are much more out. Some people are much more outgoing and excitable in that face-to-face environment while others are more reserved and those people that are more reserved in that in-person environment may really thrive and be able to share their expertise in that virtual environment because there's a layer.
Of perceived barrier that's removed and making all of those options available around the idea and the goal of just connecting and learning together. When you remove the barriers of, you know, place and space, so many more good things can come. The other thing I think is important is, So often in face-to-face situations, I am that person who is very connected to the others in the room, and I am communicating and talking with them and getting excited about their ideas.
And I, I'm really connected and then I leave the room. And I have no recollection of what I said I would do, or when I said I would do it, or you know, what the timeframe of the learning or the project is. And so having that virtual space to sort of, yeah, house that documentation and those ideas and those deadlines and commitments.
Is very, very helpful for me, who, if you're in a meeting with me, you know, the first thing that I say is I'm not the notetaker, not berm. Engaging does not work that. And so luckily there are people who can. Do that note taking piece and add it to the community. And so then it's the best of both worlds for me.
And I'm much more, I'm much more capable of like, following through on those promises I make in the in-person setting. But again, that's a nature, that's the nature of the environment that we create.
[00:11:03] Mia Chmiel: So this brings me back to the introduction, and you have a, a phrase in the introduction about the barrier is not in the child, it is not in the learner.
The barrier we really need to uncover in the learning environment. So when I think about who, who you are face-to-face and you know that you, you're not a good note taker, you know that you are a verbal processor and, and this is how you learn best and connect to people in a face-to-face setting, that doesn't make you a bad person for not taking good notes.
Right. It just means you've, you've also identified like, I know I, this is not a skill set for me. I need other ways for people to help me take notes. And that idea that it is not something we're trying to fix in our learners. We need to figure out what is the part of the environment that we do have control over that we can design in a different way.
And that for me has really helped me think about. Learning in virtual spaces and learning in face-to-face spaces in so many different ways that we need to fix the environment so it works for people and not try to fix the people so they can fit into this like one specific way that they're going to connect with each other in a space.
[00:12:23] Melissa Emler: Absolutely. And I think about how Covid potentially should be helping us, the experiences that we gained during the pandemic and being, you know, at home learning. And I'm a little bit scared because there is a lot of rush to get back to, you know, normal, I guess. And then the, the worry that I have is that, We have an opportunity to see the best of both worlds in a post pandemic era, but I don't know that we are thinking about our environments as both in person and online.
So are we thinking about the richness of our learning management systems? Are we considering when we are looking at our learning experience design? What can live in the virtual space and what can come alive in the in-person space. And I think that getting really clear on that is part of the lesson planning side for the teachers.
So now not only are we thinking about going to the copy machine and making sure we have 20 copies of this and going to get this material out of. You know, the art room for to support this ad or the other thing. But we are also thinking about what do we need in that physical environment and what do we need in that online environment and potentially how can we leverage the online environment to capture the thinking and the experience of what happens in the in-person environment.
So is it possible to put that discussion question that you're. Speaking about in your in-person experience and thinking about those people who need time to process and those people who are more introverted, is it possible to give people an opportunity to respond in the online environment and then allow people to respond in the in, in-person environment?
And what would that do for the processing of all of our learners if we are able to process in both spaces in a way that makes sense for you as the learner?
[00:14:30] Mia Chmiel: And a great example is the Library media network that I run. So it's so interesting you say that because when, when we're together and you know, we put together a list of hot topics, it takes a while for them to think of, oh, what is it I wanna talk about?
What is something that is really important for us to collaborate around. But when I pull up the way that they've connected virtually over the last six weeks, and we look through some common themes, It's really easy for us to then use that time together. So kind of bringing together both like how do we capture our thought process in the moment when we have a need, and then bringing it to a space when we can dive into it a little bit more deeply and problem solve and talk about what has worked, you know, in a space that that might be face-to-face.
Or maybe that is the time. When you come together for a longer, I'm going to say it like zoom meeting, right? So you can talk about it a little bit more, but that blend of both I've, I've seen has been really, really helpful for the adult learners that I have, you know, the opportunity to, to work with. And I
[00:15:37] Melissa Emler: think that as it's working for the adult learners, I think that it can really work for your student learners also.
But I'm not convinced that we're doing a good enough job with sort of blending the two together and bringing together the both best of both worlds, right. In our classrooms with our learners because mm-hmm. Potentially, We don't have time to sort of think it through and make the most of it. So the other, in the previous episode, we talked about the shifting of our duties in our work, when we change our language from designing learning experiences.
And, uh, lesson planning. At a traditional scenario, most of our time as educators is spent after the lesson in the assessment, in the grading and the feedback space, and in a universally designed scenario, we are shifting that workload to the front. Of the learning experience. So we're planning and designing the experience, and that means identifying what needs to be available and accessible before the lesson, and we're being really intentional about that.
So I think that in a post pandemic era, we really need to work hard at shifting that where and how we use our time because otherwise, We won't have gotten the gains from living through the pandemic that we really could get. Now, I think the other reason it's coming up in professional learning for us from a lived experience perspective, I.
Is that both of us worked in a CISA world and we would offer one or two day in-person workshops and people would come to us to get the information and then they would go about their days and it was sort of a one and done. And when we could, and as often as we wanted to, we would want to expand that and bring them back maybe in a.
Couple of months, or next quarter or even next semester. But most of the time the workshops that we would offer were sort of one and done. Here's a day or two all about this topic, and now go to your life and I hope that you do it. Hope, hope you put into PA place what you've learned. But in a post pandemic era, we've struggled because people have been sick.
We have not been able to get subs, people haven't been able to get out of their buildings. And if they're able to get out of their buildings, they're not necessarily. Wanting to come into another environment with lots of other people and other potential illnesses that they can get. So the demand for in-person workshops has been an interesting dichotomy recently for us.
And so the way in which we are working to solve that, because there's still a need for professional development and professional learning, the way that we're trying to solve that is trying to figure out what those. Online learning opportunities are and how to still embrace the people in our physical learning environments as often as we can.
And so I, I think that that's why the professional learning is elevated in our examples is because we have had to solve that, that problem. And I'm happy to see people moving in sort of that always on, always available. Creating the conditions for learning in that always on, always available scenario. I'm excited about
[00:19:05] Mia Chmiel: that.
And, and I also think about just like folks are tired. I mean, we are exhausted and I know from a, a teacher perspective, To sit through a four hour workshop that only there was about 20 minutes that actually pertained to like my role and my context. That was awful. And I think about the always on, always available options that we have and.
In the U D L forward community, we get to be the driver, right? We get to decide where do I spend my time? Where do I, you know, find, you know, people that I can connect with versus you're in a place that you are, I don't wanna say forced to go to, but a lot of the times. Yes. And how does it actually connect to your work?
And, and I see the. The inverse of that when we can provide digital virtual learning spaces for people to pick and choose where they want to spend their time when they have that time, and then being able to create that community of learners with that common purpose and the common questions. And then you, you are part of a group of folks who are living the same experience and you get to connect and support each other in that way.
And I, I see. Once that community has created that connection and have a common set of needs and like almost their own guiding questions in a sense. Then bringing them together, but having first that opportunity for, to dig in deeper, right. For you really to be the driver of where your learning goes is where we really need to shift our, our thinking.
And that I see being the opportunity of, you know, virtual learning spaces, like what we've been able to, to create.
[00:20:56] Melissa Emler: Right. And so the other piece of the learning environment that is potentially overlooked and solved by creating both digital and in-person learning spaces is the impact of pacing and the speed in which, mm-hmm.
Things are. Brought to you in the environment, and I think of having the in-person space so often, there's not a lot of time for quiet, reflective thinking. Mm-hmm. It sometimes feels like we're going into a workshop and it's a fire hose, like because we have such limited time, like. Spray out all of the content that these people need.
We need to make sure they know this, this, this, this, and this. And just because we say it in a fire hose type of way does not mean people are taking it in. And I think when you couple that in-person experience with that digital experience, again, I. You have a way of tempering the pace because you can have some pre-learning, some after learning some in the moment.
Yeah. Check this out. What are you thinking about this? Without having to be a fire hose, so that slow drip method. If people feel connected to the space and connected to the people in which they're learning with that slow drip method is really effective. Mm-hmm. And it likely has the opportunity to create a more sustainable impact because, When you go back to your classroom and you're in the moment the next day and you're taking care of everything because you've missed class the day before, over the weekend when you're like, oh, I remember we talked about that.
You have the opportunity to go back in and review some of those pieces and implement what you can in the moment. So I definitely think that, you know, when we're thinking about creating environments for learning, we have to think about that. Speed and the pace in which new content is made available and put out to people.
And often we don't take time to slow down, and that often creates a sustainable impact.
[00:23:08] Mia Chmiel: And you're making me think about who I am as a learner. And you know, since I've been in education, it has been either at night, 11 o'clock, I start looking at, oh, I saw this article and I saw this video, and I wanna try this thing in my classroom.
Or it's been the Saturday morning, the house is quiet. Jump on my computer and, you know, check into all of the different communities I'm a part of. And that is where like I get to be the person in charge of, of my learning. I control where I go. I control how deep I dive into a certain topic. I control, like the physical space around me, right?
Like I need it to be quiet when I'm learning some of these new things and I need just time to process versus being. In a meeting space with 30 other people who all are doing their own thing. Like I know for myself as a learner, I just need that time to play with the ideas in my head first before I move into like conversation or even posting something in a virtual space, like I need to think through it.
Or I might see a post that makes me think of an idea in a different way. But when we begin to think about who we are, As our, as learners ourselves and as adult learners, that helps us think through what it means for us when we're designing for our classrooms. You know, when we think about, you know, do we have those opportunities for kids to think first and then share, do we have spaces where if students are the ones who need to talk through new ideas, they can do that.
Right? Right. And it's again, not, the child is not the issue. It is the environment in which we are forcing them to learn and grow. Do we have the options for, you know, folks to be able to pick, you know, what, what is the best option for them in our environment?
[00:25:08] Melissa Emler: Right? And so we haven't necessarily talked very much about.
The physical space, environment, and classrooms in general. So there's been lots of talk, you know, in recent years about flexible seating and things like that. And I think that those are really important conversations, but I think that it's, I. Not just about flexible seating, it's about whether or not the environment has spaces for quiet.
It's about do they, is there spaces for to be quiet? Are there spaces to con converse and collaborate? Is there spaces to sort of disappear into your own little cocoon and do your own thinking? Are the chairs comfortable? Are the desks at the right height? Do they have enough storage? Right? All of those pieces.
Help learners engage. And so often our classrooms, because they were built years and years ago, are sterile and. In lines and you know, maybe in elementary areas we have some carpet spaces for gathering, but, but how do those spaces transcend over time? I can't tell you a high school space until recently.
I've seen more recently, but I. They're not, they don't have carpet gathering spaces in classrooms very often. And again, as you redesign and rethink about a space, you have to see how people interact and engage in the space. One thing I saw at one of the schools that I went to, They had just remodeled and they were sort of just now figuring out how to sort of exist in their spaces.
And they had furniture that they were moving around to different places and there was a high top table that was in one space and kids never used it. And they moved it to this little alcove area outside of the library. And every single day somebody was sitting at that high top table. Mm-hmm. And so, Sometimes what you have in different spaces is used differently based on how people are behaving in those specific zones.
But I think that the physical environment can definitely have an impact on our willingness. To engage seating charts like who you're sitting by and how long you have to sit by them. That was always a big deal when I was a kid. I remember the days of getting new seating charts. I was the kid who was like ecstatic about that.
I thought that was fantastic. It would reengage my brain. I would have somebody new to learn from and my best friend hated them. She hated me sitting church days because it meant like, A change that she just could not handle. So I think all of those things are important to think about the impact that they have on learners.
But often we feel like the environment and the physical space is a little bit out of our control. But there's a few things that I just wanna mention that you can do really quickly to bring back the physical space into some of your control. And that is ask the students. What they see. So for like three minutes, set a timer for three minutes and ask the students to either write down everything that they see or.
You know, do a classroom brainstorming session and do it publicly on the whiteboard or something of everything they see. And the reason that is really important is because sometimes our physical spaces are cluttered and causing cognitive overload. And we as the person who exists in that room, All the time doesn't necessarily see some of those distractions, so really giving the students an opportunity to tell you what they see can be super eye-opening.
And that's just a really quick hit that you can do to sort of address some of the physical space issues that you may or may not have control over from a furniture kind of perspective. Yes. All right, so there's so many other things we can talk about in regards to our learning environments as it relates to U D L, but essentially just knowing that the environment is where the barriers are and not in the kids.
That is the most important takeaway from this conversation. Yes. And we talked a lot about professional learning and the environment for professional learning today. Just remember that everyone in your school, With a universal Design for learning goal is an expert learner. That's the goal. So we definitely don't want to, to forget about the professional learners in our environments, and so thanks for listening to us indulge about our professional learning spaces, but I think that there's a lot to be learned from our recent experience with that digital space.
In addition to that in-person space that we can. Transition and make transferable to the experiences we have with kids. So do you have any closing thoughts Mia? We're at the end of our time.
[00:30:12] Mia Chmiel: I do so engage in our virtual space. So go to our U D O Forward community, leave some comments, check out who's there.
Um, we have so many different opportunities for people to connect with, with others in similar roles around similar topics. But check us out. And leave us comments about what you've learned, leave us questions. But I just really look forward to seeing how folks engage in the U D L forward community and connect around these podcasts.
And we hope you find somebody there that you find to be like your people. So, Missy, I'm, I'm looking forward to seeing how this connects back to the U D L forward community.
[00:30:55] Melissa Emler: For sure, and it will, because the podcast is another slow drip way to always be thinking about universal design for learning. So thanks so much for listening.
Have a great day.
That's a wrap for this episode of U D L Forward. We hope you found our discussion in softball and inspiring. Making education accessible and engaging for all students is really important
[00:31:24] Mia Chmiel: work. Before we go, we want to remind you to please subscribe to UDL Forward on your favorite podcast platform, and tell
[00:31:30] Melissa Emler: a friend to listen to, and don't forget to join our Always On, always Available online community at udl.
forward.community in the community. You can connect with like-minded educators and share your thoughts, experiences, and questions related to udl. We'd love to see you there and continue this important
[00:31:49] Mia Chmiel: conversation. Until next time, keep pushing those boundaries of education and moving UDL forward.