049 | Stephanie Jordan | Taking Sustainability from Niche to Scale with Avallen: Working with Bars and Distributors as an Ecosystem

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 049 I continued the conversation with Stephanie Jordan from Episode 048.

She is the Co-Founder of B-Corp Avallen Calvados. She brings fantastic insights as he runs her Sales & Marketing Consultancy, Drinking Out Loud.

Before that, she ran Sales & Global Advocacy for la Hechicera Rum and was the Global Brand Ambassador for Tanqueray Gin after starting her career in drinks on the Global Diageo graduate scheme. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Time Stamps

0:00 Intro

0:14 Sustainable Packaging

9:36 Selecting Sustainable Outlets?

13:18 Role Of An Importer

16:10 Ensuring Wholesaler Rotation

20:00 Big Fish Small Pond, Small Fish Big Pond?

23:19 Biggest Professional Change Becoming A Founder?

31:38 Wrap-Up

33:12 Outro

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Stephanie Jordan

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Stephanie Jordan

Co-founder | Avallen Calvados B Corp

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

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Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafair Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafia in
episode 49.

I continue the conversation with
Stephanie Jordan from episode

48, so feel free to listen to
that as well.

I hope you will enjoy.
Our chat, Let's not forget about

the sustainability which I know
you don't forget because I I

want to give some space to this
on on the podcast because you

are one of the big pusher of
sustainability in that.

In that terms what what did you
do in the in the in the in the

last years in terms of you know
you did some innovations on

packaging on bringing you know
less glass to the entree like

tell us more because I I'm I'm
sure that many people know but

not everyone.
So let's let's talk about that a

little bit.
So if we start at the beginning

when we had a blank piece of
paper and challenged ourselves

to create what we want to be and
has sort of won enough awards

and accolades to suggest that
we're definitely on the top

shelf one of the most
sustainable positive impact

spirits brands in the market
today.

The blank piece of paper said
where do you look?

Where is impact?
Is it at the distillery?

Is it energy, Is it waste, Is it
packaging?

Is it the marketing and
activation?

Is it the lemon, plastic straw?
What is real impact?

Where is it happening and where
do you need to go and fix it?

And it didn't take long for a
bit of Gary Google research to

take us back to the fields and
say, OK, well, every spirit

starts as an agricultural
produce, right?

Whether it be grain or cane or
in our case apples, but

obviously fruits for wine and
grape and cognac and Brandy or

we could go into a whole world
of agave.

But essentially it's an
agricultural produce.

And so once we understood that
that was the most important

thing for the environment, we
quickly did that research

compared all the raw materials
and that's the research that

said apples, apples, apples
grown on traditional orchards.

So very quickly we resolved the
liquid problem in terms of

ensuring that the distillate
would be as carbon neutral or in

our case climate positive as
possible.

So we were able to do life cycle
analysis that to showcase this.

So the things that we looked at
most was carbon impact and again

water usage.
So we only use about a liter of

water for an entire bottle of 70
CL avalan, which is the entire

production process from blossom
to bottle.

And I can't tell you how much
whiskey distilleries used

because they don't know.
Unfortunately, they're not able

to account for what happens in
the fields because we are an

industry of commodities and
marketing, not of agriculture.

And so the accountability and
responsibility to what's

happening in the fields has not
been the best.

Now that is changing thankfully
and the big companies are

starting to really pay
attention.

So once we had apples, that was
step one and then it was about

pack.
So yeah pack is really important

because you can work out you've
got this amazing planet positive

liquid but if you're going to
ship it around the world in

really heavy single use glass
bottles you're basically

brushing away with your left
hand everything you did with

your right hand.
So from the get go Tim if I

would have met him would have
sold Avalan exclusively in Bolt

because you know the least
amount of packaging is the best.

However I have very much had a
commercial hat on and thought

now we we need to build you know
a brand and and we had to know

Bolt solution that was being
used by the industry at any

scale.
So it would have been an extra

logistical nightmare that
probably would have just put

sticks in our wheels.
So we opted to launch at the

time at the lightest glass
weight bottle we could source

and the most minimal additional
packagings, very simple label

made with recycled apple pole
vegan dyes, no foils, no

additional embossing, simple,
simple, simple, no plastic

embanishments.
Really less is more and just

really smart design and that won
us a awards actually.

And then quickly it's well, how
do we keep innovating, right,

like how do we stay ahead of the
pack and transforming the

industry.
And So what you come to realize

is that this is an ecosystem,
this industry is so super duper

connected whether it be
manufacturing into working with

distributors, working with
wholesalers, consequently with

bars, retail outlets, it's very,
very complex.

And so around year two of Avalon
Eco Spirits being this circular

end of single use glass, 4.5
litre bulk refinable format

solution comes to Europe after
doing several trials in

Singapore and in Asia.
And so with the expansion of eco

spirits, we were able to start
sending in a bulk format in the

UK We're now available as well
in Hong Kong, soon to be the

Netherlands, Spain and
Singapore.

And that resolves the problem
around packaging.

We have the bottle which allows
for us to continue to build the

brand and the brand story, but
we have this bulk solution for

the on Prem that was year three,
now it's coming into year five

and we're just not comfortable
with a single use glass.

So we've tried to make
alterations.

We now work with a 65% recycled
Mezzo Bianco glass, which means

it's less refined, which is why
it has this beautiful turquoise

to it.
And the biggest, hardest thing

to get out onto the market was
this frugal paper bottle, which

is essentially a bag in bottle.
It is a 95% cardboard with a

food grade plastic pouch and an
aluminium cap, and requires much

less water and a lot less energy
not only to produce but

consequently to ship.
And the frugal bottle is

currently something we're
driving in Osprem and

e-commerce.
For us, innovation around

sustainability now is how do we
improve our MIT and do less

glass and do more bulk and more
paper bottle and continue to

look to what the next solution
might be.

What we know single use glass
doesn't make sense and what is

going to be the perfect long
term solution for all we don't

know yet.
It might not be the frugal paper

bottle.
This might be a stepping stone.

It's had some great acceptance
from the industry as much as it

has had the opposite effect.
Very, very hard to convince

anyone in France to stop this
format.

So again, I think what we're
learning is that you have to

understand that perfect is the
enemy of good.

You need to just try new things
and that's something that small

brands like Avalan can and will
do with the aim that the bigger

groups catch on because we need
them to do it at scale if we are

to get the mass transformation
that we all need, which takes me

to a final point around
packaging innovation.

I believe that it should be open
pattern and we find it very

frustrating when large brands
innovate packaging solutions

which they then keep as unique
selling points and a commercial

advantage where what we need is
for a global solution for every

brand to access so that we can
have this transformation.

That's why we love eco spirits,
because it is an open platform.

Is it a sustainability motorway
for spirits, Any spirits.

That's why Diageo and Perno and
Bacardi and Remy are involved.

As long as you know, we still
have the small independent

brands such as ourselves.
That's why I love the frugal

pack.
Anyone can purchase it.

Anyone can work with that.
So yeah, that would be my open

patterns please.
Wow.

That's that has been a bit of a
journey like this.

And I've I've been.
I've been.

Not my rant, he said.
No rants.

But I did it.
I'm sorry.

No, no, no.
But it's very interesting

because it's exactly what you
said.

No, it takes small players to
actually be lean and agile and

challenge the status quo so that
then it becomes more of a big

brands kind of thing.
Because I've been following the

journey of E Conspiracy with Z
and and everyone, and I remember

in the beginning there were no
big brands, many big brands

involved.
You know, I remember all this

press announcement there, Kayla,
Pernod Ricard joins the Agia

joins Bacardi.
You know, like I remembered the

journey from that and it was
smaller brands that were early

on in the journey.
But then all of a sudden it

wouldn't have made sense if the
bigger player had not joined the

party of ego spirits now because
otherwise it would have been

like, OK what what do we do with
a few bottles here and there?

You know, we need big, big
players that can that can play

the role.
Now you touched upon logistics,

which is basically the other
side of the coin of, you know,

innovation behind.
The curtains behind the

curtains.
It's it's it's logistics now and

if I remember right I mean you
started in London not to work in

you know like with with Avalan
like I said you know that was

the first CV.
Can I say that that you?

Yes.
No, it absolutely was and and it

was very much because we had
lots of goodwill from Nick

Gillett, who is the MD and
co-owner of Mangrove

Distribution in the UK, who took
a bet.

What what I'm interested in
knowing from your end is like

you know you know I'm a big fan
of you know the brands are bill

bottom up.
You choose the outlets before

the distributors in some cases.
Not that choosing the

distributor if you know already
that this the right distributor

is is wrong.
But I'm interested in knowing if

we go back to the early days,
nowhere sustainability was 95%

of your messaging say, did that
play a role in in how you

selected the outlets way to whom
you were selling to?

Was it more like I focus on
these outlet because it's a

sustainable outlet or I focus on
that bartender that I know cares

about sustainability within an
outlet that may or may not care

about sustainability?
We were incredibly strategic

from the get go and we
identified these twenty key

accounts all had sustainability
values and we targeted them

directly and yeah and wish like
I wish.

And now of course it's some of
the some of the thinking where

we're like OK, we really need to
go and like talk to some really

targeted accounts.
It's such a whirlwind launching

a brand and you have to do
everything right.

So you're doing your accounting
and your operations and your

logistics, but you're also
building your value chains and

working with your distributors
and trying to get your brand

decks and have like commercial
tools and all of these things.

And I think in reality five
years ago there was fair spirits

that that we're talking quite a
lot about sort of organic and

and your ingredients.
But sustainability was 100% what

we LED with and it was 100% what
was interesting to bartenders,

no one had really approached
them talking about the things we

were talking about.
And so there was a lot of love

to the brand, very, very easy
and from the get go because we

were talking about you know bees
and pollinators and we launched

on World B-day and we were
giving revenues and again this

wasn't really something that the
drinks world had seen.

Looking back, Mangrove did so
much of the heavy lifting and

they only probably got the
product in market 6 months

before COVID.
And in those first six months of

course only targeted the on
Prem.

We got a few beautiful retailers
like Forum and Masons again

because of friendships and
connections that we'd had

through the years of our career.
But bartenders are curious and

we didn't need to target
sustainability driven outlets.

To be honest, there weren't that
many like maybe the occasional

vegan restaurant.
But even today I can name very

few venues that are specialized
in sustainability.

In fact, more and more of them
have sustainability programs,

which which is fantastic because
if you ask us, we would say

every single venue should be
sustainable, right.

So I think it was really, yeah,
bartenders curiosity and the

deliciousness of the liquids and
it's something that we probably

didn't lean in enough on then to
really understand that our

secret power was always going to
be how beautiful our liquid is

because it's just delicious,
it's how it's incredible, it

tastes incredible.
We're used to great liquids came

from Diagio from the reserve
portfolio, all the liquids were

stellar, 10 out of 10.
So for us it was obvious that

the liquid was perfect,
otherwise we never would have

done it.
And yet that still is the

selling point and it's dinners
today.

And I think Retrospect's
obviously a wonderful thing, but

there was just a lot of
goodwill, a lot of good role in

the UK And again, I can't thank
Mangrove enough for the word

that they've done for us over
the years because you know,

they've really announced for us
to, to have a company which is

fantastic.
And how does that change in, in,

I mean you're mentioning
Mangrove for example, is in in,

you know, as a distributor in in
in London.

But then when you go to another
city in the UK or you go to, I

don't know, another country and
another city in another country,

how does that play, you know,
like what?

What do you think?
Because I'm a big fan of seeing

the industry as an ecosystem now
as you as you, as you rightfully

said, what is that role like?
What is the role of an importer

and and a distributor in really
building the success of a brand,

you know like be your eyes and
ears in in the market and

knowing where to go?
I would say it depends on the

size of the brand.
But for us, in our case with

mangroves, it was building
bridges.

We were able to make, make the
produce right, get the, get the

bottles ready, have the brand,
but they then are able to import

it and then distribute it
consequently into the wholesale

systems.
For us then to go the other end

and actually create the demand.
And so this is where actually

working with the 1% best bars in
the world is important because

if you can convince three or
four of the best bars in

Edinburgh to work with you, then
you can unlock a wholesale in

Scotland.
You do the same in Manchester,

you do the same in Nottingham.
And it's through the key bars

and operators that you're able
to then unlock and trickle in

that whole wholesale system.
So that was what we actually did

really, really well by year one.
And despite COVID, we had

national reach in the UK.
And so actually one of our best

performing areas for Avalon
remains Scotland today and it

was because of those early,
early on outlets that continue

to work with us and having a
really strong wholesale

partnership there.
Now so so those those bars

unlocked that chance for you to
get listed with they they.

Unlock the full route to market.
Yeah, you have to.

They they'll ask you to come
with the list and and proves

that you know at least 10 bars
will order.

It can be difficult, but that's
a lot of the work.

A lot of the work is connecting
the route to market points and

connecting the dots and then you
find the perfect outlet that

really wants to work with you.
But they just they have this

wholesale that they're in a
contract with and this wholesale

and then it becomes a whole, you
know, different commercial and

logistic conversation and that's
that's what mangrove do for us,

right.
They build the bridges.

They build the bridges.
We'll go and have the

conversations and then they'll
pick up the conversation and

they'll do that hard work of
connecting that last mile

delivery.
Which is, again, why Eco Spirits

is so hard and so important and
transformational.

Because people like the Azure
and Pano and Avalon may agree

that it's the right thing to do
and we may convince 10 amazing

bars to do it.
But if we can't get the whole

cells to do the job because they
have to do the hard work of

dropping off the eco tone
picking it up, it doesn't work.

That's the key thing and
building on what you're saying,

you know, like the, you know, we
know that you know to build the

brand that you know you need to
widen the distribution and to

build their rotation in the
outlet.

And also you is not only the 1st
bottle that you sell to the

outlet, but you know you want
them to get to to to reorder now

and to buy the 2nd and the 3rd
and the 4th.

And so how, how did you, how did
you play on that?

Or how do you think is the right
way of playing?

Not necessarily that you have
done it or like what you've

learned on the journey, you
know, on making sure that those

handful of, let's say, first
contacts that you may have had

in, you know, mentioning
Edinburgh or Manchester or

Liverpool or whatever, that they
actually want to reorder it.

And it doesn't become just, OK,
we tick the box now you got to

deal with the wholesaler and
now, you know, sorry, but we

don't want to order it anymore.
And then they leave you with a

match, you know, like in in in
your hands, in in Italian we say

with the you just stay with the
lighted match in in your hand is

like, oh, where's everyone now?
And so thankfully, that isn't

what's happened.
But it's not rocket science.

It's it's cocktails.
You need, you need, and this

thing, you need to be more than
back bar.

You need to be more than on
menu.

Because again, Calvados isn't a
thing.

People are not going in and
going, oh, I wonder what this

is.
Steve from Calvados.

They have, they have Avalon.
Let me have one of those.

That's not happening.
So it has to be in a drink.

It has to be in a cocktail.
And here's the trick.

It can't be too weird because
all our wonderful 50 best bars

and and and top bartenders and
bar ladies, they're great and

they're getting crazier and
crazier.

And so we currently have a
cocktail in Paris which is made

of auber jeans and black garlic
and I'm like Yum, like it's

delicious.
It really is.

And it's a top end bar and I get
it.

But like, again, if we're
talking about average dry, like,

it's not with these sort of
drinks that we're going to

convince people.
So again, Calvados isn't a

thing.
So when you're reading a menu, a

cocktail menu, you're looking
for flavors that you loved and

maybe a brand or a category that
you recognize.

Oh yeah, I like Jen and I like
rhubarb.

OK, I'll try that.
So when some of my lovely

friends in Amsterdam put an
Avalon cocktail and menu made of

red cabbage, because in the
Netherlands red cabbage and

apple is a thing.
Well, they didn't sell so many

of that cocktail because people
don't want to drink cabbage.

So it has to be in a menu, has
to be in a cocktail and the

cocktail has to sound like
something people want to drink.

So a lovely example, I use
Pander and Sons in Edinburgh

because they work with eco
spirits, they work with Avalan

and they have this cocktail of
menu at the moment called Core

Values and it's an aptly
delicious, refreshing drink.

And the pun of course around
Core and Afton Core, but Core

values and purpose and tells a
little story about Avalan and

and the impact that we have.
And so I think those are the

kind of perfect, perfect menu
listing where you just want to

replicate them all over the
world.

It brings me back to a
conversation I was having with

Alex Fritzer from Lantigua in
Napoli, like in one of the

earlier episode this summer.
And he was saying like you know

you also have to be able to
enter as a side choice first,

you know and then walk your way
up to the best selling drink.

No.
But again like another option

could also be being a small size
like a modifier only and you are

the one CL top up in a in a
drink and it doesn't really

matter at the beginning as long
as it lets me put the foot in

the door so to say you know I
know that there's no right or

wrong.
It's not you know, you love mom

or dad more, but like what?
What do you what would you say

or what would you advise is
most?

Fruitful, you know, Would you
rather be a smaller, poor in a

very well selling drink, or
would you rather have your own

proper game in a quite nice size
cocktail?

But that's not in the first page
of the menu so to say.

It's it's a tricky question.
I think again it depends on what

sort of life cycle you're at
with your brand.

We're a start up, but we really
need to become a scale up,

right?
So we can't just survive, we

need to thrive.
So early doors, I didn't care in

what we were in and we just
needed to be in.

And The thing is Avalan is a
great modifier as well.

So that that was a really nice
way to actually be on menu and

not get in the way of any
contracts because we can't be in

a Pano or donagi or Piccadi or
Campari drink, doesn't matter.

So always grateful for those
drinks and I'm sure that we

improved every drink we were in.
Now we really, really wanted a

need to be the main course,
hence this whole thing around

Appletini's and getting them
trending and how do we get this

drink to trend like a Negroni
Spagiato.

But yeah, right now we're very
much looking forward to being

the main course.
I think we're worthy think we're

good enough, we think we deliver
enough value wherever you look

to our commercials as well and
understanding that we're able to

deliver the right margin for our
customers and sort of understand

what it what it takes to be the
main course and not maybe just

the Andrews Bush.
There's a very, very interesting

answer to the question because I
would say the same, you know, if

it was for me like I would, I
always advise you know, just

whatever, you know, get in the
door, get in.

It's also like a bit of a
learning and you know, like

trial and error, you know.
And that's what I liked about

the conversation with Paul
Thomas when talking about

insights, you know that
sometimes you you may think you

need a big in size budget, but
actually you need 35 to 10 bars

to actually do some experiments
and see, you know, get

visibility and get transparency
from them on sales and say, OK,

let's try this drink in two
bars.

Let's add this other drink in
two bars, let's see how it

works.
Let's see what happens.

And then you can recycle and
repurpose that information to it

to the next batch of 10 bars in
which you want to to get in.

And I'd apply that same thinking
to like export and opening up

new markets because you never
know where your brand might just

hit, right?
The category might be just

right, the flavor might be just
right, the price might be just

right.
And as much as him and I have

had global careers, we really
don't know anything or

everything.
And so right now the US for us

is so exciting and we end up on
shelf at $40 which is cheaper

than most in market.
Apple Brandy is locally produced

and yet we've got this whole
beautiful B Corp and

certification and and the
branding is so different.

And on top of it, you know we've
got some great partners that

talk about the female founded
aspect etcetera.

So it fries, it fries off shelf.
You've got to just go through it

and see what happens and find
out from the market what's going

on, right, which is the thing
that we can all agree.

You've got to just get out there
and talk to people.

Yes.
And what would you say was the

biggest change for you?
Not not much from a personal

perspective and more from a
trade perspective.

You know, when you were walking
into bars, you know, before you

used to represent the brands you
know and now you were

representing your own brand.
What was the biggest difference

in going into bars and, you
know, having a totally different

type of conversation?
I'm scratching my brain because

we were paid to go into bars and
we were paid to be walking

talking bottles and to Incarnate
the values of that brand, right?

And so how much of it was us?
How much was it was a roll?

It it got a bit confusing at one
point.

You know we didn't really know
what our favorite color was when

he bought mine apparently was
green.

It isn't my favorite color is
purple but people thought it was

green and that that's you say
it's silly things but you get a

little bit confused about your
own identity So it takes a real

minute to reset and re establish
what you really care about.

And so I think now when we walk
into bars a of course we're

ourselves and Philly ourselves,
which always a good thing.

You know Tim Tim's now sometimes
a grumpy old grandpa.

I myself can be completely
offbeat and wacky and talk to

people about moon cycles and
witches and crystals and crazy

things.
So again it there's pros and

cons.
I think we need to remind

ourselves that we asked that
ambassadors and that when we

walk into bars we need to
Incarnate.

Avalan's out of use.
And so we may have created

Avalan, but Avalan is entirely
its own thing.

It has its own energy.
It has its own identity, It has

its own copy, its own language,
its own tone of voice, its own

personality.
And so we need to and this is,

again, I'm saying it out loud,
so that Tim and I remind

ourselves we need to represent
Avalon's values, not necessarily

our own.
So we can both get, you know,

quite it's a call and done all
that and then things that you

would never do under your
corporate disguise, right.

I think that's the new and maybe
we're too much of ourselves now

we need to turn it back.
When you were talking, I was

thinking about myself and my
fair drinks.

I mean I'm, you know the company
bears my name even even even

worse.
You know like in this

interconnection but technically
I mean you need to see, you need

to see the almost as the tax man
assets are different.

You know like the
responsibilities are difference.

You know that's your bank
account, that's your company

bank account.
There is always an overlap, but

at the same time when when
thinking it makes me think

listening to you that is not
that different in the end, you

know, of course it differs from
a budget perspective and from

and so on but in.
Terms of responsible.

There's many, many amazing
things about Diageo and my

career and I, you know, loved
every second of it.

But act like an owner.
We would talk from the

beginning, treat it like your
own company, and we did.

And I suppose that's just a
value that sits with you

throughout your career.
So you always have to act like

an owner.
I would say I'm much naughtier

at the T&E now than I probably
was at the action.

Tim's like, before I go to this
Mission restaurant, I'm like,

why not?
At least that he's like, but in

in a dessert I'm like, great,
let's go.

That's the beauty of it.
Like it the there is one thing,

which is the of course the
budget and the possibilities.

But then on the other end, you
are still embodying a brand

which is, you know, working with
its own fit now.

No, it's a living body.
Even social media.

No, it's like this is the
company page.

That's not me, you know, of
course it's me.

But then and sometimes they even
think location like speaking you

or you know I or we or.
Especially if you hire people or

as you grow and more people are
involved with your business,

whether the business has your
name or not.

You see you need to let let go
of it and it has to be its own

thing.
And I think now we are very much

a purpose LED slash found LED
spirits brand.

But there has to be a a world
whereby it's not about Tim, not

me and it is entirely about
Avalon, right.

And so I think that's also part
of growing up as as

entrepreneurs and and putting
systems and processes and

messaging in place which takes
us away from it.

But and I think that's healthy
because otherwise it can be all

consuming.
I agree.

And and and that's that also
goes back to what we were

discussing before about the the,
the messaging, the clarity on

the message because it's you and
Tim.

And then there's the, let's say
the closer team, you know from

the founder onwards.
And then there's the importers

and the distributors, the
wholesalers, the bars.

And you know, like in ensuring
that there is consistency in

that messaging, that the
wholesaler salesperson is

speaking the same language as
you speak.

You know whether you do a
training whether you do a

presentation whether you do a
webinar or whatever that is part

of the old game about building a
coherent messaging that can

survive you as a as a founder
know because you know I was

discussing with Paul Letko from
Few Spirits know and and he was

saying you know you need to fire
yourself as soon as possible

from what you're not the best at
whether it is you know being an

ambassador where it is going to
bars you know is it the best

thing or you can actually you
know bring in the next

generation into the game.
And I mean it's always a very

fascinating topic like
generational continuity of of a

business and of a brand because
ultimately many of these brands

that are big now, they they
started as a as a founder LED

brand, you know hundreds of
years ago, you know they were

not be back then.
What I What I remind myself is

every day that you know what Tim
and I have been very good at is

working through others and it's
sort of inspiring and engaging

this bigger broader Mycbium
network that is the drinks

industry.
And you know Avalon is already a

success.
It's, you know you define what

success is.
You can put the KPIs in

yourself.
If I looked at you know, volumes

and NSV probably isn't what what
it could be.

Yeah, of course it's still, it's
still small, but in terms of

having this, this impact and
this positive impact and

transformation of the industry,
it is already a success and

we're very proud of that.
But we do have to be very, very

humble because we are really
just a duo and yet all that

we've achieved is because of how
powerful the rest of the

mycelium network has been.
You know, it's their belief in

the product, the liquid, its
values, what we're trying to do

and their ability to sell it and
that going to be the tipping

point for us, right, how we get
messaging so simple and so on

point that anyone can sell it
and how we can actually

eventually get out of the room
and get out of the way of it.

And that is also like another
very fascinating topic, which is

it takes someone to be the
engine of this change, you know

that you're trying to drive.
And then it also we we need to

thank the people that are with
us on the journey because they

believe in us in the early days
or they are supporting us or

they enable to open some doors
that otherwise would be closed

and so on.
But ultimately you need to be

consistent and you know really
onto that, you know, driving

that purpose down down the road
and down the line from the brand

to the distillery to the all the
players that are involved in the

ecosystem down to the glass of
the of the bar.

Agreed.
And that is the simplest in such

a perfect time of year as well
to sort of say thank you.

And so a lot of December we've
done either sampling because the

only thing you can do and the
easiest time to sell Cavadas if

there was one time that's easy
to sell Cavadas is Christmas.

So we've been doing a lot of
sampling and writing cards and

saying thank you and sending
little presents and little

chocolates and little books.
So all our distributors and all

the people that that contribute
every single day to making,

making this work really
important.

I agree.
I agree.

So let's wrap it up and let us
know how can we find you and

team and Avalan and all the
beautiful things we discussed

today.
All the beautiful things, yes.

So Avalan very
easyavalanspirits.com.

We have a very nice new shiny
website which is all about what

is that product.
We've got a bit more commercial

in our in our old years, but
also a lot more blogging and

vlogging from from Tim and I.
We really want to bring to life

some of the stories when we're
out and about in the world

because that's where we think
the magic is happening.

So you can also sign up to our
newsletter, which are called the

Bee Mails.
You can find us on Instagram.

You can find us on LinkedIn
again at Avalan Spirits.

I myself am at Drinking Out Loud
and Timothy Etherington, Noel

Judge.
He's right in Noel, but he is at

Ginger Bitters.
Fantastic.

So thanks a lot Stephanie for
for today's chat and Merry

Christmas.
Happy New Year and we we'll be

back.
We'll finally we'll manage to

have a drink soon, somewhere
around Europe or around the

world.
It will happen, and I look

forward to doing a podcast in 10
years where Calvados is the new

tequila and everyone's like,
crazy for it.

OK, maybe in five years, Five
years.

I wish that to you.
What's happening?

I'm convinced I have to be, but
yeah, thank you for the time and

keep up the good work.
We appreciate it.

Thank you, Steph.
Ciao.

That's all for today.
Remember that this is a two-part

episode, 48 and 49.
If you enjoyed it, please rate

it, comment and share it with
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for more insights about building
brands from the bottom up.