Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Agency Forward explores the future of agencies as tech and AI drive down the cost of tactical deliverables. Topics include building competent teams, developing strategic offers, systemizing your business, and more.
New episodes delivered every Tuesday.
Chris DuBois 0:00
Hey, everyone, today I'm joined by Kurt Schmidt. Kurt is an agency consultant and the creator of the YouTube channel agency unfiltered, where he shares practical insights for running better creative and digital service firms. He is a former agency owner who now coaches teams on everything from process to communication leadership, and his advice is, is battle tested. Right from years of just managing clients, projects and profit margins in the trenches. Now, I wanted to have Kurt on because most agency chaos isn't from bad work, from bad expectation management, and he knows how to fix that. Also. He's just one of the the most genuine people, and I enjoy surrounding myself with these types of people, so thus he has been invited to the podcast. In this episode, we discuss how to avoid client drama with better expectation setting, what good looks like, and how to align on it early training teams to hold the line without pissing off clients and more. Lead Gen is the hardest part of running an agency. For most it's unpredictable, it's slow and it's usually expensive. Jia flips that. It's the all in one growth platform that turns your existing relationships and client work into a steady pipeline. Jia automates lead gen follow up and content and it's all from the work you're already doing. You can check it out and get some free bonuses at get gia.ai/dynamic agency, and now Kurt Schmidt, it's easier than ever to start an agency, but it's only getting harder to stand out and keep it alive. Join me as we explore the strategies agencies are using today to secure a better tomorrow. This is agency forward. Let's talk troubled clients. Let's do that, yeah, what? What's been your favorite experience?
Kurt Schmidt 1:55
Oh, man, I've had so many over the years. And I mean, it comes down to expectation setting, because, you know, the work that we do, any any service based business. I mean, it doesn't matter if you're doing websites or SEO or if you're doing plumbing or if you're a lawyer, communication is about 90% of your deliverables. And the problem is, is that a lot of people get very good at the craft of doing what they're doing, but they don't focus on becoming very good at the communication side of things until it's usually too late. And we make a lot of assumptions as human beings, right? We assume, well, we're working with this big marketing division of this large company. So they know everything that's going on, right? Because they've done this before, well, but they haven't done it with you. So, you know, making sure you're setting good expectations is really key upfront. And it's, it's, it's also kind of boring to do, so we don't like to do it, you know, as agency owners, yeah, you know that that whole thing, but having a robust customer onboarding is really important to setting good expectations. Because for me, I've had so many times where in the past, there's, it's just been impossible to set expectations because you have multiple players inside of a project too, so you know that can be also be a part of the challenge.
Chris DuBois 3:29
Yeah, I think expectation management is probably the critical skill for agency owners to have, actually, in talking with a client this morning, I kind of separated to like, setting expectations and setting boundaries where it's like, you're defining expectations as, like, I need you to do these things, boundaries being I need you to not do these things right. Like, you cannot request me to have it like a turn around on your feedback the same day. Like, as long as you don't step over that line, we're good,
Speaker 1 4:02
yeah, yeah. And sometimes it comes down to just how you position yourself around those boundaries. So, you know, I had a, I remember, in a negotiation with a client over a proposal, they were, you know, they were like, well, we want, you know, we want to do, you know, 60 day terms or something like that, right? And instead of just saying no, I responded with, well, it's our policy that it's 30 day terms and so just that alone, like, you know, saying that this is something that's been thought out. This is part of our rules, not just, I'm being a jerk, yeah, sets you up as a professional, and it also sets a precedent with the client, so making sure they understand what your policies are, which are basically just your preferences to be to you and me, right? But if we present them as our policies, I've seen light switches go off with clients and they're like, oh, oh, it's. A policy, okay? Yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll do the 15% down, and then, you know, blah, blah, blah. So because you're also kind of letting them know, like, this is not I'm treating you a certain way, because that's how people could feel, right? Well, you're taking advantage of me or whatever, right? But if you present it again, going back to you actually thought this out, and you do actually have policies in place, it's a lot easier to communicate, and it lands a lot
Chris DuBois 5:26
better, right? And it really just comes down to documenting that. So now you you can bring it up whenever everyone teams on the same page, and now you can, like, I know this is, this is how we do things, right? And you just,
Speaker 1 5:39
that's the key thing. You just brought it up there. It's not just you being able to do it's the team being able to hold the line as well, because if they understand what the policies are, then they can help hold the client accountable without you having to get involved in every escalation that happens when
Chris DuBois 5:56
even there, I've seen team members who I've seen this across a lot of clients, so I guess you can tell me, if you see the same the you'll have team members running accounts or project managing and their their reputation they feel is tied to whatever you know they're doing for the client. And so even if your company like, policy is we like we we need at least 24 hours turnaround for feedback before we can provide you something. But that team member says, Yeah, I can do that for you. Like, I can do that just because their ego is starting to get attached, right? They want the status to elevate it. Actually, this is
Speaker 1 6:30
why clients love working directly with the team. And they don't like the project managers and the account managers, yep, because those are the shields for the team they like, you know, because I would have the same thing. I'd have just gold developers being like, why are you replying to an email at 10pm we don't do that. And what I learned was, is that I they they were had tunnel vision, because they're just on this project, but they have to understand how this affects the entire business. Those decisions that they make, while, to your point, might be good for their reputation. It can have a negative effect on their team members and the people around them, but they don't understand that until you can really explain it and show them what that impact is, right?
Chris DuBois 7:13
Yeah, it's more important to get in there, I guess. How do you recommend agencies build the muscle? Expectation management?
Speaker 1 7:22
Yeah, I would say, you know, a lot of times in the early days, what was really helpful, especially for more complex projects, was doing a pre mortem internally, sort of sitting down with the team and saying what could go wrong with this project, and then mapping out what those possible paths could be. We don't get the content on time. We don't get approval on time. We don't get access to their servers or whatever, like these types of things, and then coming up with things that mitigate it, and then also helping that be a part of the initial project plan, and allowing the project manager to really see where things might go off the rails ahead of time, instead of waiting till they show up. And so they can be prepping and instead of, you know, the day of when the client needs to share the content, they can be dripping, you know, reminders ahead of time, knowing it's coming, because they know it's a huge blocker. I have so many times where a project manager is like, well, I don't know how to develop stuff, so I don't know when things are going to be an issue. You're right. You're not a developer. You don't know when things are going to be an issue, but you can sit down with the developers and work through that, yeah, and that's one reason why, you know, we moved years and years ago to more agile types of methodologies where we're doing sprint planning every two weeks. And so every two weeks, I've got to check in on the health of the project, the health of where things are going. We're demoing to clients. We're building in public with the client. We're demoing every two weeks. And in just that fact alone, you know, has saved a lot of projects.
Chris DuBois 9:04
I like the idea of a pre mortem. I've never really thought of it that way. Now, if anyone wants a super simple like mental framework, I guess, around it, look up the US Army's risk management matrix. Yeah, you base it, you base it, you just list out all the potential risks, and then you're able to rank order them based off severity and likelihood. And so, like, you'll know, is this a catastrophic risk or is there a low likelihood? So, like, it's not a big deal, and you can build it that way, yeah.
Speaker 1 9:36
And you could keep it very light, you know, you don't have to go crazy, but the more you keep doing this, the more you keep doing the type of work you're doing, the better you're just going to get at it, and you'll know where those those risks are. But you know again, every time you're having sort of that internal kickoff, or maybe if you're a more sizable agency, and you're having a handoff meeting where sales is handing it off to production, or things like that. That's a perfect time to talk about potential risks to the project and what the severity, like you said, ranking the severity of those things, and because the client, clients don't want to be bad clients, Chris, they don't and but sometimes we put them in a position where they're going to be bad clients. Now, my father always told me, there's no bad clients. There's just clients that don't pay you enough, and I find that to be 100% true. And, and, and so, you know, they're part of the reason why we call them bad clients is not because they're jerks, it's it's because they, they just have poor expect. You set poor expectations with them, so you know, on what something is out of scope, what isn't out of scope, all that stuff.
Chris DuBois 10:54
Ma'am, my dad just told me I needed to work harder or I would amount to nothing. And so, ah, interesting.
Speaker 1 11:01
No, I had bosses like that. You have your annual review, and they would say, work harder, take less vacation.
Chris DuBois 11:08
Yeah, get better. No, I gotta give a shout out to my dad, although that probably was his mentality, but he never actually said it. So what I do, like about this too, is like you're one. It gives more credence to the idea of really focusing on what you do as a service, and like picking something and just saying, This is what we do. Here's how we show up, so that you get the repetitions Exactly. You know what to expect within the engagement, so it's easier to manage someone else's expectations
Speaker 1 11:42
exactly because, again, like, that's the benefit of niching. Is not it? Like everybody you look at, and I've done videos on this, Chris, is that everybody talks about niching in terms of marketing, which is absolutely, yes, it can help you attract more clients. But what people don't talk about enough is, how, me, how it makes you really good at the work you're you're doing, and you'll make more money. I have some agencies I work with that have 30 50% profit margins because they are in a niche, versus a number of folks that I know that are in the seven to 11% because they do whatever shows up. And as a business owner, guess which one I like more? You know, because the variety is super is superficially, is super fun and feels fun to do. But then when payroll is due, the profit margin is what is keeping me up at night, right?
Chris DuBois 12:42
The Yeah, another like subset of that is agencies have this benefit of seeing like, if you're niched, they have the benefit of seeing these same problems coming up over and over and over where, if I'm working as a marketer for a brand, I see it one time and like, and I can work on it once, but I can't say we're fixing a landing page. I can only make one test, because if I do too many tests, then it might we'll never know what actually fixed the landing page. But as an agency, I might have 510, clients this month that have the same problem, and so we get to learn very fast and build that expertise, which means I can hire Junior talent. Now I don't need to pay someone 150k out of the gate. I can bring on a 60k team member train them very fast to help them with their career, but also help my margins. As I'm bringing in team members who just learn the ways of doing things that we're good at.
Speaker 1 13:35
Yeah, for sure. And what, what you need to do is not keep the client on that side of the table. You want them to come and sit on your side of the table. And a lot of some of the most powerful questions I ask clients in the beginning is like, Okay, so you've done this work before. What are issues you've had doing this work before? Yeah? And they'll tell you, like, Yeah, well, the last place, they never sent us updates on where our hours were at weekly. And you're like, Oh, we weren't going to do that, but I guess we'll do that now. I can't tell you how many times it saved my butt doing things like that in the initial call, like asking them like, you know, but it's also backfired, so I'll get to that in a second. So, you know, asking them like, what are some ways that you see that this project would go that have some issues or things? What are things you've experienced on your side before when you're doing, maybe not this exact kind of work, but you're doing projects outside like this. Let me know. What are some things that you've experienced that have been poor and if you've got a good relationship with them, they'll tell you. But I've had, I will warn you. I have said some clients saying, Well, we're just starting a project. Why are we talking about all this risk which, which could set things in a sour mode. But also that should be a red flag to you that this client is not going to care until they care, right? And that is not good, right? We all want to grab our our masks once the bombs have already dropped. Like, yes, no, yeah, I would say, I would say, get your uh. Get your hazmat on, suit on. Now, you don't have to put up your hood, but just have it on, right? You know?
Chris DuBois 15:07
Yeah, something simple that we started doing as well, especially for like, small, like, Hey, we're onboarding you to HubSpot type projects. We had a slide in our kickoff deck. That was just what we're not going to do for you. Yeah? Because I had had some clients who thought, like, they're paying 5k for HubSpot onboarding, right? It's like, a month long, we're just going to help you get into the system. And they thought that included us building their website. Oh, sure. It's like, wait you what? Lynn, like we had the enemy engagement
Speaker 1 15:39
templates and, yeah, workflow automations and yeah.
Chris DuBois 15:43
And so we had to bring all these started just bringing them up. We had a slide that said, Here, here's what we're not going to do with this engagement. Here's, here's how you're going to show up, how we're going to show up, and we're going to make sure you get this outcome. Yep. And just a line from the start. Everybody good. All right, let's go, yeah.
Speaker 1 15:59
It's, really key, because, again, like, you know you, you have to, you also have to be careful, because you know you there's a lot of excitement at the nobody's happier than at the beginning of a project, right? So you want to keep the you want to keep the goodwill and the momentum going, right? But you also have to, and you could just say, Just be honest, like, look, I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer here, because we're all excited, but I do have to talk through some things that you know we've experienced in the past before, where there's some things where projects like this can go wrong, and it's when clients don't deliver their their content on time, or their branding on time, or things again. Back to your point about you've experienced this, and just getting that out of the way quickly in a positive way, where, again, it's there sitting next to you and not across from you. And the more that you mentally keep that mindset of that the client is on your side of the table, I'm telling you, the better, the longer Those relationships will last. It's It's key, right? Because I've always, I've always tried to, and there's times where clients don't want to come on that side of the table, like, Nope, I'm good. I'm good. Over here, I'll stay over here. Then that's fine again, back to make sure you're charging them enough, right? Because there's more work to do that.
Chris DuBois 17:22
Yeah, oh, definitely. I think the so even just gonna make other tactics for expectation management. One of the things our founder had done really well with the agency was like, he'd give a name to whatever the problem was, so that it was something that would stick in their head. And so we had brand it right? We had what we called the swoop and poop, yep, sweep and poop, Seagull maneuver. Yeah. A stakeholder shows up mid project says, I don't like any of this, but they have no context. Why are we doing all this stuff? Yep, and and, so we would, yeah, we talked that. But client, it's stuck in clients head, because how many times you're going to be in a professional business meeting where someone says, like, Alright, so we want to avoid swoop and poops. And they're like,
Speaker 1 18:04
the what? Yep, it's funny. How many people know what that means now? Because it happens in Yeah, and even executives understand it, because they'll be like, Oh, I'm doing that, aren't I? Right? You're doing it.
Chris DuBois 18:13
And yeah. And when it comes up in a meeting, like, no client wants to tell their boss, hey, we can't actually get your feedback in there, because this is a swoop and poop, yep, yep, yeah. So, yeah. A little bit of branding help with the expectation. Man, it does. Goes a long way.
Speaker 1 18:29
It does. It does. It does really help you. I mean, again, back to being able to, instead of just telling them, you know, and I think that's great. You guys had a list of, this is what we don't do. But, like also including like scenarios, because people are attracted to stories, right? Not bulleted lists. So when you're presenting these things, you've got to be careful with that. So we used to have this, we used to keep this huge document, and I've carried it with me from for the last 15 years, which is, which I just called assumption junction. It's a spreadsheet that lists all different types of projects you could possibly be doing, and then it lists a ton of assumptions that you can just pull from to put into whatever proposals you're going to do. Right? So it would say, like, we're not going to create content. We're not going to do this. We're not going to do this. And if it's a website build where you know, we assume you own the domain, it would just, it just had all these lists so you could the project managers could pull from this list regularly, because the assumption junction kind of had this catalog of learnings, right? Because anytime a project would go sideways, yeah, I would get upset about it, but I would get more upset if I didn't see, what did we learn from this and where? Where were we putting this information and data in a way that makes us stronger and better? And that was one of those examples, right? Well, will any past mistakes we made or miscommunications with the client, they would go into this database that we could pull from for new things. So back to your point about getting good at those learnings. You got to document those things because you don't write it down, doesn't exist, right?
Chris DuBois 20:22
And you're never gonna Yeah, especially with, like, just agency turnover rates and how things change, Yes,
Speaker 1 20:28
yep, that great project manager you had for last three years running that big account all of a sudden moves to a new place. Yeah, that's it, you know? And all the little types of micro direction they've given over the years is not documented or put anywhere.
Chris DuBois 20:44
Well, yeah, one of the things we use in the army or continuity books, yeah, because, because, you know you're going to be swapping out roles every year to two years. And so having a binder that's just like, hey, here are how here's how the meetings are structured. Here's where you can find this information. Here's right, everything in there, and now you just hand that off to the next guy, and hopefully everything stays smooth.
Speaker 1 21:07
Yeah. And this is great stuff to delegate to your employees to produce, because they're the ones doing the work. So tell me what good you know, tell me what good looks like to you, and then present it back to me, and then I will tell you what I think good looks like. So it's a great way to go. You go to your project management team and see, I want to see, document the entire project planning process for me, you know, and you know, so on and so forth. And the sales team document the entire sales process for me. And and have those things in in places where people can understand them. Yeah.
Chris DuBois 21:42
And have we talked this on your podcast? Yes, sir, the what good? Good looks like, yeah, okay, yeah, I can't remember. I've had a lot of conversations lately, but let's reiterate that point here. So I think I did it on on your show as well. Yeah, which everyone should check out Schmidt list for a good podcast. There's the shadow. We'll plug it later again. But the Yeah, a lot of agencies will look at like, what done looks like, and they'll capture that, but then they don't look at like, what does good look like? How do you know you're on track, you're doing the right things? Like, what are the steps? What should be included in here? And, yeah, I feel like that's such a an important distinction that can really elevate an agency and make sure the process are on point.
Speaker 1 22:28
Yeah, because it's death by 1000 cuts and on most agency stuff, it's usually not just one big thing that causes the issue. It's small things. I just the other day, I was talking with one of my clients working with this great, big, giant company. And they just, they built a research document for them, they put it into a presentation and showed them the draft of it, you know, they walked through it. The clients like, this is all great. Looks great. It's this everything we wanted, but we can, you put it in our PowerPoint template. And, you know, that's all. That's a bunch of design work that they hadn't planned for. But, you know, I was like, you that is something you should have asked from the beginning. Like, you know, like, if the deliverables a presentation, like you should, you should know, like, what kind of present? Like, presentations are visual things like, yes, it's full of data, but don't be don't be ridiculous, and not think like, well, they might want it in their in their template. Did you think they were going to repackage and do all the work to take all your stuff and move it over again? What does good look like to the client? What does good look like to a team member, and are those things aligned? And that's again, going back to every two weeks doing demos right where what good looks like today is not necessarily what good looks like tomorrow. We all produce these. I see so many places waste all this time producing these detailed scopes of work, when by the time it's signed, it's already out of date and and you've got to determine what good looks like. And sometimes it's just that simple of asking the client, what does good look like to you? And they'll tell you, right?
Chris DuBois 24:15
Yeah, I keep, I'm just gonna keep bringing up army stuff from this, the something that we have within every so in operations, order, right? Five paragraphs. Situation, mission, execution, your command and control. Sustainment, I think they've changed some of the names of those, but basically five paragraphs. And if you go through the process for all these, you will never miss a beat, like ever. I don't know if they were joking when I was at my like course as a lieutenant, they said, there we get foreign students all the time, and stressing the importance. They said, Look, students have come from other countries and taken over their governments using the operations order so but within that one portion called the commander's intent, and it's really it's the end. State. It's like, what are we trying to do? Here's some guidance, right? Here are some of the key things that we need to make sure we do. And if everything else in this plan falls apart, if we have achieved these, then we're sitting pretty good. And I think you can do the same thing with, like, your scope of work with, with anything else, like, hey client, what are the if we just want to make sure that we knock it out of the park for you, what are those things that you would just say you have to see these so, like, even if the website doesn't launch on time, or, like, or maybe that is something that has to happen because you got, like, an investment round coming. Like, but what are those details that are like, the no fail that we can base everything else around? So now maybe we don't pay attention to as many details elsewhere. We just make sure we're staying within your guidance to knock this out of the park,
Speaker 1 25:43
and you can hold them accountable throughout it, right? Because I can't tell you how many times I've I've said, okay, so you told me that we were not to exceed $15,000 for this project or something, and now you're asking me for a bunch of different things. Is that assumption wrong? Because it sounds like they're like, no, no, no, we want, we just, we need more things within the 15,000 I was like, no, no. You said 15. This what you're asking for costs more than 15,000 and you said you wanted 15,000 I don't understand exactly why we're having this discussion. Otherwise, what you told me in the beginning was not the right goals and and being able to present things back to say, like you're changing things now. Does that mean these original goals you told me were wrong? If that does, that means our timeline was wrong, our estimate was wrong, and our scope of work was wrong. So this, this is a different project, and when you can put it to together that simply with clients, they can understand, Oh, you're you're right, or they might just try to argue with you because they don't like that. You're arguing with them about it, but you're standing on truth, which is what they told you, what good looks like, versus, you know, splitting hairs about, you know, we'll provide, we'll provide you a document, and they're like, well, the document was like, three paragraphs, and I expected six paragraphs or whatever. Like, you can get into those splitting hair things, and you're going to lose every time. But where you where it's really hard to lose is when they tell you what good looks like is that we launch on this date, it stays under this budget, and it has 15 images or something great, and you get it's a week before launch, and they're like, Yeah, we're not ready to launch, so we want to push it out a week okay. So this Okay, so we've so this is not what good looks like anymore. Is what good looks like now a week further out. Because if that is, I need to go back to my original estimate and plan for another week in the so again, it just makes it an easier discussion, because what ends up happening in too many cases is that a lot of projects will go over budget, and then internally, we sit there and try to figure out, how are we going to ask the client for more money? How are we going to ask the client for client for more money? And and you're already on your heels, and it's going to be really hard to pull out more capital from it. But if you, if you can just point and say, this is obviously a change, and I don't mean again, from three paragraphs to six paragraphs, but a change in what the overall purpose of the project is, or or a change that impacts the purpose of the project, then it's an easy discussion.
Chris DuBois 28:32
So let's, let's look at like 8020 rule. What? What would you say agency owners should focus on for that 20% to get 80% of the results in regards to expectation management,
Speaker 1 28:44
yeah, I would say it's, I would say it's the amount of times you pick up the phone and call the client. Yeah, because I see I used to have a rule at my my agency, where is that, if there was two communications with a via email or slack with a client, you pick up the phone. If it goes past two and you don't pick up the phone, you're in trouble. So client emails you and says, Hey, where's this thing? And we email back, oh, we sent it to you in this thing. And they write back, oh, I can't find it. If you write them back, I'm going to be pissed you. You say, Hey, you got 15 minutes. Let me just get on a call. I'll show you where it is, or clients are, or even employees. Employee slacks me and says, Hey, I don't know where. I don't know what to do about this. Did you try this? Yeah, I tried this. Okay, let's hop on a quick call. You you the more you play email or digital communication, table tennis, the more you're the higher risk. The longer you play, the more risk you're at. Okay, the ball is going to. Drop at some point. And if it drops on the client side, you're not going to feel good about that either, because even though you win, do you win? Right? Because you're a service company, right? If it drops on your side, well, you know, that's your fault. So the more that I have a focus on communication is our top deliverable, and if we are not communicating, if we're not delivering on communication every single day, then why are we here? So I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but it's really important to understand that the most successful agencies I've been a part of, that is what sets them apart, because the client feels like they're being carried through the process other than you know if, if you've waited in line at Starbucks or whatever place to order coffee, and you've had a Gen Z or early millennial look at you and they're disgusted that you're there and they're annoyed that you're there. I don't want that experience for my people, you know.
Chris DuBois 31:13
Yeah, so I got two more for you, first being, what book you recommend every agency owner should read,
Speaker 1 31:21
oh, that's a good question, How to Win Friends and Influence People like it's been around for 70 years, and it's as relevant today as it's ever been. My dad gave it to me when I was like 15. It's a fantastic book. Learn how, learn how to relate and work with people. You're a service based business. Your first goal is to understand people and what they want. Your second goal is to be good at what you do. Otherwise, don't do a service based visiting. Go get a job. Yeah, just get framing. You'll be much happier.
Chris DuBois 32:01
Yeah. The last question, Where can people find you?
Speaker 1 32:07
Oh, so I post all over LinkedIn so you find just look for bald guy with glasses named Kurt there. It's pretty easy to find me. And then I have a YouTube channel called agency unfiltered. And you can find my website at Schmidt consulting, dot group, where I've got lots of posts, blogs, books, all sorts of things, resources to help agency folks. So yeah, go and check that out. Yeah.
Chris DuBois 32:37
And I want to give a shout out to your YouTube channel, because as far as agency content goes, your ideas are great, but the editing also really helps with like, creating engaging videos. I appreciate that type of stuff, so gotta give it.
Speaker 1 32:51
I worked really hard at it. It means a lot that you say that, because I'm the same way, and it has to be of a good quality, otherwise, I don't want
Chris DuBois 32:59
to do it. That's why I avoided using YouTube for even my podcast over a year. Someone's like, hey, no one's actually watching the video. And I'm like, Oh, yeah. And then I just put it up there. Now it's got, like, the logo for the show and, like, That's it, just the audio, but, but yeah, your your show is actually,
Speaker 1 33:19
Thank you, Chris. I mean, it means a lot awesome, but Kurt, thanks for joining. Thank you. Pretty appreciate it. We'll talk again soon. Okay,
Chris DuBois 33:30
that's the show everyone. You can leave a rating and review, or you can do something that benefits. You click the link in the show notes to subscribe to agency forward on substack, you'll get weekly content resources and links from around the internet to help you drive your agency forward. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai