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Honest conversations with working mothers about how they really "do it all"
Join us on Substack - https://substack.com/@leaningmyway
[00:00:01] Mikenzie: Hello everyone, and welcome to Leaning My Way, a show where I have honest conversations with working mothers about how they really do it all. Today's guest, Shahar Paled is a professional storyteller and you can clearly hear that from the stories she shares on her journey into motherhood and navigating multiple country and career moves.
[00:00:20] Mikenzie: As a mom of two sons, Shahar has always had a hunger to see the world and tell stories. So naturally she started her career as a reporter. Working at organizations like CNN Living and traveling across the world to cover everything from breaking news to social justice stories, including one about women breaking the glass ceiling after 10 years and becoming a mom.
[00:00:43] Mikenzie: The risk reward trade off of journalism no longer made sense, and she transitioned into the corporate world at Google. The main themes in Shahar story are uncertainty and perseverance.
[00:00:54] Mikenzie: There's practical uncertainty not knowing when you'll get called to Germany to cover a terror attack, which creates a logistical nightmare as a mother. But Shahar has also faced deep personal uncertainty. It took her and her husband three years and countless doctor's appointments to conceive their first son.
[00:01:12] Mikenzie: And more recently, she's been laid off twice due to team downsizing at Google and a telecommunications company as an incredibly ambitious and accomplished career woman, this has been a huge shock to her identity, but just like she persisted through her fertility challenges, Shahar has found ways to adapt and keep moving forward.
[00:01:32] Mikenzie: In our conversation, we dive into the realities of being a working parent without family support, nearby balancing ambition with the demands of motherhood and tactics for managing the emotional toll that come with fertility and career roadblocks. Shahar is refreshingly honest about the challenges shes faced and her relentless perseverance To stay true to herself through these hard times is an inspiration to me.
[00:01:56] Mikenzie: So let's get into it. Here's my conversation with Shahar P.
[00:02:02] Mikenzie: If you worked at the consulting firm, you will call me McKenzie. If you didn't, then you will call the consulting firm McKenzie?
[00:02:12] schahar: You can't. Yeah, you can't separate them. It's either or. Okay,
[00:02:16] Mikenzie: For listeners, we were just talking about name pronunciations. 'cause today we have Shahar and I was learning the proper pronunciation for it, at least the American version of it. yeah. But at Starbucks I get the craziest spelling.
[00:02:31] Mikenzie: The issue is that my name is spelled Mike Nzi, M-I-K-E-N-Z-I-E. So really the best nickname for me would be
[00:02:39] schahar: Yeah, that's perfect. Mike or Mikey. And I don't think that would be weird. coming from a, a lady, I think today, I mean,
[00:02:46] schahar: I nicknamed my, my sister-in-law's nickname is Mikey. So
[00:02:49] Mikenzie: Oh really?
[00:02:50] Mikenzie: Okay. Okay. Maybe I'll try it out. It's fun. Well, speaking of your family, I wanted to start a little bit with your family and something you told me on the prep call was that your mom was a stay at home mom and growing up she always told you to have a big career. And I was curious what that meant to you when you were younger, thinking about your career path, and how you thought about having kids, you know, in your twenties starting to plan out your career.
[00:03:24] schahar: Yeah, that is correct. my mom had four kids and she was always very proud of that. still is,
[00:03:32] schahar: and she was very invested in us, but then sort of let go of herself and her career.
[00:03:39] schahar: we are two, boys, two girls. And I remember her specifically telling me and my sister, not to follow her lead, that she absolutely regrets not continuing with her career in some form. she later on did, do
[00:03:57] schahar: a business administration, master's degree focusing on healthcare. but then she couldn't quite, find work full-time, work with that, and yeah, sort of just gave up. and always regretted that and kept telling me and my sister that we should find our path and a way, to combine both that it's absolutely doable and that it's pretty much the one thing that she would take back and do differently.
[00:04:23] schahar: I'm curious if when you were pursuing journalism, if you were concerned at all at the time, like, will I be able to make this work? Because We'll get into the details of how you juggled being a reporter and a mom, but very hard career, I would think logisticallyat a minimum. To be a mom and be a reporter where you need to be physically on site reporting requires a lot of travel.and you did switch to a more traditional job fairly early on into having kids.
[00:04:56] schahar: I'll tie that back to my name. So, because I've worked as a journalist in, Tel Aviv, so my name is a Hebrew name, very easy to pronounce, Shahar. But then I worked in the US and then in France, and then in London, where my name has been butchered in so many ways. From Shakar to Al to Shaha, in very creative forms.
[00:05:19] schahar: but I was a journalist in all those countries and the majority of my reporting career was before having kids. So for about, a decade, a bit over a decade, for 12 years I was a journalist, but only the last two of them as a mom and I. Really seize that opportunity to travel as much as I can and to, be on the ground, on field reporting, and enjoying that as much as I can before I start a family knowing that at one point my partner and I will have to settle somewhere.
[00:05:54] schahar: and that would make, traveling a bit trickier.after working for CNN for several years out of New York, again, involving a lot of travel across the us. I got a job as a Europe correspondent in, well, first London, and then we transitioned to Paris for a couple of years and then back to the uk.
[00:06:11] schahar: but,at the point when we returned to the UK from France, my, eldest son was born in Paris and then we moved back to the UK when he was around 10 months old. And that was a point in which I felt like I was both, Way too deep in a comfort zone. You know, you could have woken me up at 3:00 AM.
[00:06:34] schahar: Telling me the queen had died and I'd, you know, snatch a microphone and start immediately talking and filling up airtime. and it was just becoming too easy. Also, pay was awful. and, and having a 10 month old, I didn't want to travel to Sweden to, cover, what they were doing in terms of COVID, having it done differently than the rest of the world.
[00:06:55] schahar: So there were all these instances, or a terror attack in Germany. I had to, you know, leave everything in the middle of dinner, make sure my partner is taking care of the kid and going to, report on that. So it was a combination of factors of, I've been doing this for over a decade, pay as shit, and, I'm really ready to do something else with my life.
[00:07:14] schahar: So I think again, just timing made sense when kids showed up.
[00:07:18] Mikenzie: Okay. That makes sense.
[00:07:20] Mikenzie: And it took you a long time to get pregnant with your first, I think you said three years. That must have been. Very challenging for you. Can you tell us a little bit about that time? both, how you were handling it practically with work and then the emotions that came up with it as well.
[00:07:40] schahar: Yeah, absolutely. it was very difficult. I knew I wasn't very special. I've heard at that point many, many, many women who were having a hard time, conceiving. and I knew it might take time. I think when we started out, I was 31 and we were sort of, oh Yeah, we'll go with the flow. some of our friends are starting to have kids and.
[00:08:07] schahar: we should start trying. Let's see how it goes. And then I think a year later we realized it wasn't working for us, and that's when we also realized it's something we really wanted. So in retrospect, it's easier for me to look at it as a process we had to go through to know that we were really certain we wanted to have kids.
[00:08:28] schahar: We were having such a fantastic time together in our twenties, almost to the point where we said, why ruin all this? This is so great. so it really took us time to understand, okay, we're starting our thirties now. my partner is, two years older than me. We're gradually reaching our mid thirties.
[00:08:44] schahar: This is probably a good time to start a family. And when that didn't happen, and I think the most frustrating part of it was that we didn't know why. So we did all the tests. Nothing was wrong with me, nothing was wrong with Tom. my partner and, No one could actually let us know what we should be doing other than the classic, just let it go.
[00:09:04] Mikenzie: worry. The worry makes it worse. I feel like doctors say that with everything and I'm
[00:09:08] schahar: those phrases.
[00:09:09] Mikenzie: times more worried.
[00:09:12] schahar: Yeah. There were a lot of sort of you know, just don't think about it, just go with the flow. And, and that, that didn't help. but, We kept trying. And I think what happened, we tried in New York for a while and then during a short stint in London and then, we eventually managed to conceive in Paris, but that was indeed three years later.
[00:09:32] schahar: Andduring those three years, there was one, miscarriage, which was on the one hand devastating, but on the other, a good realization that it is possible. So the fact that I actually got pregnant after, a couple of years trying, was joyous. but then obviously very, very difficult, to go through the miscarriage.
[00:09:53] schahar: And what had happened when we moved to Paris is that I got pregnant and then exactly seven weeks in, so exactly at the point when I had the miscarriage, the first time around, I was bleeding again thinking, oh no, this is happening all over again. and I think that's. What broke me, emotionally and, and mentally.
[00:10:15] schahar: 'cause with the first miscarriage, there was that,glass half, half full, kind of sense. And happening again was really devastating only to go to the hospital at 2:00 AM without speaking French. so that, that was, a story in its own right, but, to realize that, there was a heartbeat and everything was absolutely fine, but there was a hematoma, a sort of a big blood clot that was, creating the bleeding and a lot of uncertainty that followed for the first few months, whether the embryo versus the blood clot, who will prevail.
[00:10:48] schahar: and, and thankfully, yeah, our, our son did. and so it was a very big challenge. Again, I don't know if, my stressful job situation, had to do anything with it. I don't know of too many jobs that aren't stressful. So I think we're all, and in general, most people I know who live, at least in urban settings, live a relatively stressful life.
[00:11:13] schahar: and other than a job that I really loved, and I still do love the profession of journalism, even though I haven't been, practicing journalism for a while, I felt like I was doing everything and anything, right? and it turned out okay. so yeah, I guess we did do something
[00:11:29] Mikenzie: in time where you guys talked about you stepping back or. Traveling less? Or was it always like, we know at some point this is gonna work. let me stay focused on my career.
[00:11:45] schahar: I am not sure we knew this is going to work in terms of the pregnancy. I was actually kind of certain that it would take longer and we started at that point considering IVF, we never ended up doing that, but, I started hearing, hearing stories about seven and eight in 10 years of people trying.
[00:12:04] schahar: so I put myself in that situation. but no, I never considered not working or doing something different in terms of the lifestyle. It was, again, it's not that my job was that stressful. Yeah. there was a lot of transitioning between huge events that were happening, you know, political, terrorist attacks, things like that.
[00:12:24] schahar: And then the following day I would cover a new Michelin Stard restaurant. So it was very versatile and I loved it. Again, I never felt like that was what was holding me back. I really feel like it was the circumstances of I. The timing or what we were trying to do when we were trying to do it and potentially stressed.
[00:12:44] schahar: But there was never a moment that either myself or my partner were thinking, oh, maybe we should, I don't know, stop traveling or stop,working. We were settled in Paris at the time, knowing it would be temporary. But, we were so happy there.
[00:12:58] schahar: and then eventually we managed to conceive, but stopping work or yeah, stopping my career in any was never an option.
[00:13:06] Mikenzie: I was. just, curious because I think when you're trying for a long time, which I agree, and now I've heard a lot, it seems very common, but can be very isolating and then doctors don't seem to be particularly helpful and so I. one of the things that's in your control is like how much or how little you're working.
[00:13:24] Mikenzie: So I was just curious if it came up or different things like certain prenatal vitamin, like I feel like you wanna do things that feel in your control rather than what they would work or not.
[00:13:36] schahar: I wanna quickly share a story that we might tie into, later on in the conversation, because I don't wanna give, doctors such a bad rap. There was one doctor that was Actually, I found in retrospect very helpful. So after, you know, multiple tests and checks with doctors in New York, in Tel Aviv and in Paris and in '
[00:13:56] Mikenzie: cause you were moving a lot through
[00:13:58] schahar: had, yeah, we were
[00:13:59] Mikenzie: you don't have one doctor training. Yeah.
[00:14:02] schahar: exactly, we were checked in multiple places. I think it was one of the doctors in Israel actually, after, having read all our tests and documents, He said, nothing's wrong with you. You just need to keep going and keep trying. and he said something along the lines of,
[00:14:15] schahar: just let go, or something like that.
[00:14:17] schahar: And I told him, you have to explain to me exactly what that means. 'cause you know, I do yoga and I swim and I try and meditate and I try to calm myself down. what does it mean to, to let it go? I can't help stop thinking about it. and then he said, for example, when you walk down the street and you see a pregnant woman, I'm sure what goes through your mind is, you know, just a feeling of sadness or something sort of pinches your heart.
[00:14:43] schahar: I dunno if that's an expression in English, but it is in Hebrew. And what crossed my mind was, Hey, how does he know? That's so true? Every time I see a pregnant woman, I don't get upset, but I you know, It's sad. I'm really, jealous. I'm really envious. And he was like, so when that happens, try thinking happy thoughts instead try staying positive.
[00:15:03] schahar: And I actually took that to heart. And every time since I saw pregnant woman in the street, I forced myself to think I'm so happy for her. So great for her. Look at her. She looks wonderful. I wish one day that would be me. But look at her right now. I'm so, so happy for that person. And a month later I got pregnant.
[00:15:23] schahar: And I don't know if there's a direct connection, cosmic connection there, but there was the fact that he gave me something practical to hang on to. Was so useful out of a, you know, a couple of years of just nothing that I could actually do. And I think that helplessness, I'm such an active, proactive person.
[00:15:43] schahar: The fact that I, for the first time in war life was out of control, of something was out of my control and I couldn't control the situation of I wanna get pregnant. This is happening now. that was something that I could control. My own thoughts, my own mindset. so that was a great tip and potentially helped me get pregnant.
[00:16:03] Mikenzie: love that. Yeah, exactly. It's just like, what are the practical things that you can do to help at least give your mind the thought that you're in
[00:16:12] schahar: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Something
[00:16:14] Mikenzie: even though we're never in control. Yeah. And then I'm curious if you learned anything going through this experience about fertility that you wish you had known beforehand?
[00:16:25] schahar: I think the biggest thing I, I learned about myself is how to cope with, Being unsuccessful in something that you know, I didn't know how to cope with that. Maybe tying back to my mom and this, cheap psychology, thinking of, she would always sort of push us to excel and we were really all, you know, a graders and, and really good students and really good kids in general.
[00:16:50] schahar: and I think failing was never an option. You know, she was the kind of mom of what you got 97 out of a hundred and the exam, where's the other three points? You know, that, that very classic, Jewish mom. and so I think I didn't know how to cope with failure and, how to, continue on with, that helplessness of there's not much I can do in order to make things work.
[00:17:17] schahar: I did learn a lot about, fertility tests at what one, should do about that. But, I don't think in general that it surprised me, in any way. Again, I've heard stories that in retrospect were much more difficult than ours. it's just that for me, it was mostly the mental load of how to cope with, a month after month not being successful to conceive.
[00:17:38] Mikenzie: Do you feel like it impacted your work? Were you able to still show up and be present at work?
[00:17:44] schahar: Yeah, very much so. I don't think it impacted my work. at least not on a conscious way. It's not something that I felt I was aware of. I also kept my pregnancy hidden for as long as I could once it happened, because I was dreading that it wouldn't, work all the way through. And, you know, every stage is so frightening.
[00:18:07] schahar: even after I got pregnant, I knew about, oh, I, i dunno, the phrase in English, still stillbirth. yeah, I knew of, of my, friend's sister who went through that and, it suddenly, it hit home and I was like, wait, this could not be the end. I just got pregnant, but there could be so many other difficulties along the way.
[00:18:28] schahar: So I, I kept it hidden for a while. And I think when I was. Five months pregnant or something like that. I told my, executive producer,that I was pregnant. and he was like, no shit. because you could only see me as you,Mackenzie, see me now, from the chest up.
[00:18:44] schahar: And I thought okay, so no one can tell, but apparently it was very apparent. I didn't gain as much weight as I just, I dunno, my breasts got fuller, I guess, or something like that. Like, it was apparently very, very clear
[00:18:59] schahar: to anyone watching. only later did I realize, like my friend was telling me, Oh yeah, my mom watched you on TV and said, is Shaha pregnant again?
[00:19:08] schahar: Just from watching me from the chest up, no
[00:19:10] Mikenzie: I guess, people are watching you a lot as a reporter, so
[00:19:15] schahar: and then over time, just realizing, something has changed. So that was so funny, that I thought I'm hiding it so well, no one's seeing me, from, from the chest below, but Yeah. people started figuring that out.
[00:19:28] Mikenzie: you had your first during COVID, but you were still covering COVID during that time and only took a pretty short maternity leave. I wanna talk about how you thought about both thephysical burden of having to travel and cover COVID, but also the risks of that as a new mom and how you thought about that.
[00:19:53] schahar: Sol was born on January, 2020,
[00:19:56] schahar: so he was born a couple of months before. we were under lockdown and we even managed to sneak in a ski vacation with him, like a two month old, baby, at a ski resort.
[00:20:07] schahar: That was fun. And I think the last day, was the day they announced like everything was shutting down. and so I was at home with him for a couple of months and then had to go back reporting when, Paris was suddenly empty. One of the, I think the most touristic, city in the world was suddenly empty.
[00:20:27] schahar: so. I got back to reporting quite gradually from, the balcony of our flat, had this funny setup with the trip.
[00:20:35] Mikenzie: live from the balcony of my
[00:20:37] schahar: Oh my god, I should, I should send you the footage. It was so funny 'cause I had this, Silly setup with a tripod, filming
[00:20:45] Mikenzie: You are like Tom, film me.
[00:20:47] schahar: And this was, I'm talking about like a tiny, tiny Parisian balcony.
[00:20:52] schahar: but I had, you know, the rooftops behind me, and it was lovely. and pretty much the only thing I could do at that point. when they allowed to go down to the streets, I think there was a one kilometer radius that you could leave your home to go to. So I started doing that.
[00:21:06] schahar: So I did a lot of like, stories from the vicinity of my home. But, it was fine. I think because everyone was, in lockdown it actually felt. And we had this really
[00:21:18] Mikenzie: weren't you, didn't you have to travel a bit for,
[00:21:21] Mikenzie: for covering new countries?
[00:21:22] Mikenzie: Okay.
[00:21:23] schahar: so the first few months, no one was traveling anywhere. And then I think I traveled for the first time when, Sol was only six or seven months old.
[00:21:33] schahar: so a few months in. and then, yeah, there was mostly reporting coming out of, Sweden or places where they did things differently with COVID or other areas in France.
[00:21:43] schahar: there was another stint in Germany that I had to go for a few days. I think both. Tom and I were, were okay about it. It wa it wasn't great. It wasn't convenient to be away. I wasn't away more than, than four, five days maybe maximum. and in general, I'm much more, chill person when it comes to being away from my kids today as well.
[00:22:05] schahar: I'm happy to go rest, somewhere for a few days and then, you know, miss them and come back and I do miss them terribly. but I'm really happy with, instances and times that I get to travel and I honestly think that if, the compensation would've been balanced out with what I was feeling, I was giving, I was working sometimes 16 hours a day doing really a one woman band kind of operation from pitching the initial stories to researching them, producing them.
[00:22:39] schahar: Covering them reporting, doing the behind camera and on camera work, and then editing them. So sometimes really sending back a full video package, and getting really, low salary equivalent. I really felt like that was my biggest issue with that, unless the travel and the fact that I've been doing that for a while and there was no, opportunity for growth and development.
[00:23:02] schahar: You know, I've reached Senior Europe correspondent. There was not much to move up from there. and so it was that combination of factors. I actually think, again, with my personality and my kids, they, they were less of a factor in that regard. not completely out of the picture, but, I think if I had a really, really easy time reporting, then I might've continued on with that even, despite the travel and having kids.
[00:23:29] Mikenzie: okay So then practically you're working sometimes 16 hour days, you're traveling on and off. How did you and Tom make that work? Childcare wise?
[00:23:41] schahar: Especially living away from family. That was. Quite the challenge. again, the first seven months of Saul's life were only the two of us, in a flat with him. We could hardly leave. we were very fortunate that Tom, received, a very generous, parental leave, from his, employer.
[00:23:58] schahar: So we were both for many months together,with Sol, and that was manageable. When we moved to London, we were fortunate to find, a nanny for the first year of our son's life. and then were heartbroken. When she actually injured her back, she was like Mary Poppins. she raised the bar so high that actually till this very day, we couldn't find anyone, quite like her.
[00:24:23] schahar: But for the first year, she made things really manageable. And by the time she was gone, I was already working for Google and, you know, the whole lifestyle changed. but we made that work thanks to her and our relatively flexible jobs. So 16 hour days were, some days, but then some days were three hour days.
[00:24:41] schahar: So it was very flexible. I think it was mostly the uncertainty I could have, you know, dinner with a family, dinner with friends and then, oh, there's a breaking story. You have to drop everything and go. so that, that was the biggest issue.
[00:24:55] Mikenzie: Do you wish you were able to take a longer maternity leave without having any work to worry about 'cause you seem like you love working, you like the energy, the chaos,
[00:25:06] schahar: yes, I did
[00:25:07] Mikenzie: short. Like 2,
[00:25:08] schahar: yeah, yeah. Two months is again for me. some women can go back to work after two weeks. For me, it was very, very short, and I did wish that upon myself and I did compensate myself with the second son who was born, 20 months later. and by that time I was working for Google, a company that, it was very easy to take, full-time maternity leave off.
[00:25:29] schahar: I think I took a bit over six months. and, that was absolutely fantastic. and again, I felt very generous compared to my previous, workplace. And, All the time I needed, I didn't feel like I needed 12 months or anything like that. So, having moved from two months to six, maternity leave wise, that was great.
[00:25:49] schahar: And something I felt like I could do. moving from, from journalism to a more corporate world.
[00:25:54] Mikenzie: going into the shift from journalism to Google, what, as you reflect on that time, were some of the biggest differences of doing the more kind of freelance reporting work versus working in a corporate where it's very structured and I guess the first time you're working an environment like that.
[00:26:13] schahar: Yeah, absolutely. I started off by being extremely grateful, for the change. I did not take for granted the fact that within a few months of starting the interviewing process,I managed to get that, role. I think it was actually the only place that invited me to interview with. So it was funny, it was the case with CNN back in the day when I graduated from Columbia Journalism School.
[00:26:41] schahar: So the same case happened with Google, and again, I interviewed for multiple smaller companies, larger companies, but Google is obviously something I, I really wanted to a place I really wanted to work at.
[00:26:53] schahar: and so when that happened, I was extremely grateful. the upside was the resourcefulness, again, jumping from doing everything by myself with very, very little, resources to here's all the money you need. Here's all the computer power, all the teamwork, all the vendors you can imagine.
[00:27:17] schahar: and in that regard, it was fantastic. And in, in general, my teammates were filmmakers, were screenwriters, were creative people that I didn't even imagine existed in, a place like Google.
[00:27:29] schahar: And we just worked together creatively to do really fantastic projects, almost like mini documentaries and small, explainers and training videos, internally. but it was also, I'd say the downside was the pace. It was a very large organization. Everything worked very slowly. approving things took time and then executing them took time.
[00:27:55] schahar: so, I was very fast on doing, multiple projects, at the same time because. Itit took all that, all those weeks and months to get things started. but, I loved it in general. I was starting to consider which department I could move into where I could, do some other, projects.
[00:28:14] schahar: I was under Google's people development, so I worked mostly on people operations and things like that. but then having, seen what other production teams were doing, I was in the initial stages of seeing if I could move elsewhere when, 12,000 people were laid off and my team was one of them.
[00:28:32] schahar: in general, obviously production and media work isn't the core of what Google does, so it was, I think, relatively easy to get rid of, a lot of the production teams. and unfortunately, we were one of them.
[00:28:45] Mikenzie: Yeah, we're gonna get more into that in a second. I want to talk about when you joined Google, you actually got pregnant very quickly. It's so interesting how these fertility things work. 'cause from three years to, I don't know how much you guys were trying at that point, but very quickly getting pregnant again.
[00:29:03] Mikenzie: and so starting your job at Google, how did you navigate finding out you were pregnant with this big career transition?
[00:29:16] schahar: So first and foremost, I'll say it's extremely common. People struggle with the first pregnancy and then usually the second one is very, very quick. for us, it was so quick, it was not planned. I discovered I was pregnant on my, son's first birthday And that was I think three, four days after told my partner, told me.
[00:29:38] schahar: You know, it's so great what we have right now. Let's wait with the next kids. because I feel like you are much more, like a couple, when you are a couple with a kid, it's much closer to being, what you used to be as two. Whereas when you become a family of four, life is over as you know it, you no longer have that moment for yourself 'cause you're always juggling one kid at least.
[00:30:04] schahar: so we knew that would be the case and decided, yeah, we're gonna wait. But then life had, because I was so certain again, it would take years to get pregnant. We were obviously, not very careful and, it was a delightful. Surprise, but a surprise nonetheless. and then, 20 months after Saul was born.
[00:30:26] schahar: Dean, his brother was born. Um,
[00:30:30] schahar: really Dean. So I've been told because of my horrible experience with my name, we were looking for short names.
[00:30:40] Mikenzie: It's a very easy one to pronounce. You can't really mess Dean up.
[00:30:43] schahar: exactly. And I was looking for short names, that are, multicultural, international, well known in Israel as well as abroad.
[00:30:52] schahar: and so he was born and I knew I was pregnant right after I got the gig at Google.
[00:31:01] schahar: And that was actually a difficult conversation for me to have. I felt like I got this opportunity of a lifetime and now I'm gonna ruin it oryou know,I have to tell my, hiring manager quite immediately. In fact that it was after getting hired, it was the first conversation, I had with him.
[00:31:20] schahar: And he was fantastic, very, very quickly to reassure me that Google hires for the long run, you know, they brought me on for the, for the long haul. and you know, it's gonna be a few months that I'm gone and then I'm gonna be right back. And he, in fact was planning on taking his, paternity leave when I returned.
[00:31:42] schahar: So he, he was very, very nice about that and reassured me that it's absolutely fine. I dunno if that's a common experience. I was, again, extremely relieved and, and grateful about that. But yeah, it definitely made everything much easier. but I was panicking when I, yeah, realized I had to tell them moments after, getting hired.
[00:32:06] Mikenzie: Well it's interesting. I was just talking with a friend who is pregnant and lives in the US and she was saying you have to work at the company for at least a year, at least in the US to get maternity leave.
[00:32:21] Mikenzie: But I guess it's not the same.
[00:32:23] schahar: I dunno if it's European standards
[00:32:25] Mikenzie: Or Google
[00:32:27] schahar: or Google specifically. it was such different times. Again, that was already the height of COVID. and I think teams were desperate to get people who are happy to work remote. It's so funny, like five years ago working remote was so strange, would you be willing to not come into the office?
[00:32:46] schahar: and there was a huge need for digital content and video content. People were onboarding and were unable to go into the office, so they had to create tons of, video footage and materials for them to onboard, remotely. And again, that was part of what my team did. So I think they were very eager to.
[00:33:05] schahar: Get me on board for the next nine months at least. And Yeah. I got the full package so I was just happy and I think if he would've told me something like, I'm so sorry. It's absolutely fine, but we might have to limit your maternity leave for like three months Or something like that.
[00:33:23] schahar: I would still be absolutely fine about it. I didn't even think the transition from years of journalism into a place like Google would be possible. So I was just overall very happy that was a success and then leading into just being so flexible and nice about it was more than I could have expected.
[00:33:42] Mikenzie: And how is that second mat leave? You have two boys now, which my sister has four girls, which actually I think is great for the early years. I'm like, I will not enter your home when those girls are teenagers. But I imagine it's a little bit the opposite with boys.
[00:33:58] schahar: That's what I've been told. I will wait for the teenage years to get back to you on that. 'cause I fear it would be as hectic as it is. now. it's, it's been a handful. I love them dearly. They are absolutely fantastic kids. however, specifically, when it came to the, maternity leave, it was very, very difficult because, Sol our eldest, I think two months in, started sleeping like 10, 11 hour nights.
[00:34:27] schahar: Straight. And we were like, what are parents talking about? This sleeping stuff is so easy, like two months of, you know, struggling with feeding the baby and that was it. And then came Dean and he's now three and a half and he still wakes us up in the middle of the night. For the first six months.
[00:34:47] schahar: It was brutal. It was, I think every hour and a half. He used to wake up for six months straight until he broke us and we went to, sleep training, with him. But for the first six months, we were zombies. So. There was no leave in the maternity leave. I could not leave anywhere. Itit was very, very difficult to be so, so sleep deprived.
[00:35:11] schahar: And again, at that point we did not have help. And you know, we had an ad hoc babysitter that helped us sometimes. But, nights were on us and nights was so, so difficult. Every hour and a half, two hours he would wake up and sometimes stay up for about three hours. And then there's no situation in which when the baby sleeps, you sleep.
[00:35:33] schahar: We all know that's fiction. and I'm such a bad day sleeper. Like I can hardly take naps. So Tom and I both were, were really zombies. we were really, sleep deprived. so that was my maternity leave. But again, it could have been worse if I needed to go back to work two months later, that would've been very difficult.
[00:35:53] schahar: so. It's
[00:35:55] schahar: whole
[00:35:55] Mikenzie: impact your mental health at all?
[00:35:57] schahar: for sure. I, I can't remember to be honest. it's amazing how things just,
[00:36:03] schahar: completely slip out of your memory. I'm sure, I'm sure I was miserable. I mean, sleep is probably one of my top priorities in life. and I, again, as a 20-year-old, I used to sleep 10 hours minimum a night.
[00:36:17] schahar: 'cause I was a, a primetime news reporter. So eight, 9:00 PM shows, which meant my day always started around 10:00 AM so I would always sleep until like 9:00 AM for sure. so days always started very late. I wouldn't go to sleep very late, so I always hadMany, many hours of sleep as a 20-year-old.
[00:36:38] schahar: And then, suddenly taking that away from me in my thirties. I'm sure it affected my mental health. Yeah.
[00:36:46] schahar: it's again, till this day when I'm sleep deprived, I'm
[00:36:50] Mikenzie: Me
[00:36:51] schahar: a different person. yeah. I'm not a nice human being. I'm sure it affects most people when Yeah. Sleep is taken away from them.
[00:36:59] Mikenzie: Yeah. Okay. So then, wanna talk a little bit about the current period that you're going through. So, unfortunately has have had a rough, what is it, year or two that got impacted by layoffs twice in two different jobs. Can you talk a little bit about that career arc to start?
[00:37:26] schahar: So difficult. I felt like I was on such a fantastic trajectory. I could really see how my early jobs in journalism, then led to being part of the sort of a launch team member. In one of the first international, so English speaking news outlets in Israel, which built my portfolio to be able to get into the Columbia Journalism studio, which got me into CNN, which I think really helped with getting me into Google.
[00:37:55] schahar: So I really felt like each of these stepping stones was really leading me, to great places in my career. And I was a senior media specialist at Google, and I felt like that was a foot in the door to this multiple, options organization, that I could grow into. When those layoffs hit, it was devastating.
[00:38:15] schahar: It was also expected. After the financial crisis in 2022, we saw Amazon and Facebook starting to lay off people. And despite my manager, who was 19 years at Google at the time, telling us, oh, this will never happen at Google. like, it's not the googly way. And then having it indeed, impact all of us.
[00:38:37] schahar: we got a heads up, like we knew this was maybe coming. And then again, being based in the UK I was very fortunate 'cause my US team was eliminated the day Google announced the layoffs, but we got three months, of consultations and then three months of garden leave.
[00:38:53] schahar: So, so again, I was quite fortunate in that situation and was able to relatively quickly find myself, establishing a PR and communications role at, a telecommunications company based in London, a scale up that was really looking to enhance their, comms and media, relations abilities. I was leading a small content team, part of the larger marketing team, and
[00:39:18] schahar: It looked as a fantastic opportunity. It was really lemonade out of lemons in that situation. But yeah, seven, eight months in, they were also downsizing and let go of a group of people that included myself. And at that point, that was a real shock. 'cause after a career in which I was never fired, and even at that, employer, the feedback was always very, very positive.
[00:39:41] schahar: to suddenly be let go twice in the same year and so unexpectedly, that was devastating. And it came few months after the 7th of October attacks in Israel. And so there were multiple layers there of just oppression and sadness and just, yeah, overall inability to cope with the, the collective sadness, the personal, professional situation.
[00:40:07] schahar: So yeah, I think that was. Probably one of my hardest times. That, and having trouble to conceive,were probably my lowest points in terms of, self-esteem. It hurts your confidence so much. you know, you keep having that, projection back at yourself that it, it must have something to do with my abilities.
[00:40:29] schahar: I mean, they didn't let go of those people. they did fire me. I was the one who was made redundant. True. It was with other people. It wasn't just targeted at me, but it still, it makes you doubt. It makes you really, sort of second think question your abilities. and that was extremely, extremely difficult.
[00:40:47] schahar: And I think for six months I sent out. Five applications a day. I really, really tried hard to do anything, any networking connection, any coffee conversation, anyone I ever knew, which was also challenging because I already did that when Google let me go.
[00:41:07] schahar: so then, you know, 10 months later, suddenly circling back to all those people and saying, hi, I need your help again. it was very, very difficult and still is to this day. it's, been 18 months now and I haven't found a job. But what happened was when I was at Google, I applied for another master's degree at, at the Oxford Internet Institute with an idea of transitioning out of media into.
[00:41:31] schahar: AI policy or in general, it's a master's degree in social sciences, so the intersection of society and technology, which I found interesting in its own right. But I always thought about it as a nice to have. and I continued those studies part-time while doing my full-time job.
[00:41:46] schahar: and once I was let go and wasn't able to find another work, the part-time studies became, my full-time gig and what I focused on for the past, few months after six months of really, really trying hard to find work. I took a break from that. you know, I started therapy. I found, a professional coach that could try and help me.
[00:42:09] schahar: what else did I do? I'm double down on like conferences and events and networking, stuff and started finding my own little projects. Like a podcast that I started, like, a Hebrew school that I'm doing for local, kids in the community. all these little things that could fill up my time while I do my studies, while we, purchased, a new flat and renovated it.
[00:42:32] schahar: So that was a whole project in its own right while my eldest started reception and had a lot of, issues that we had to deal with. So, my hands were full for sure. circling back to my mom who was, and still is, extremely supportive, and I was certain that she would be judgmental, but at that stage she was like, you've got so much on your plate.
[00:42:54] schahar: look at it as an opportunity. it's great that you don't have to do all of that plus a full-time job. I had, and still have a hard time looking at it that way because I didn't choose this. I have many, many friends my age now who decided to quit their jobs, and or are just unhappy at work.
[00:43:14] schahar: It wasn't the case for me. I just really wanted to continue going and I don't think it had anything to do again, with me being a woman or being a mom or maybe even my age. I just really felt like, it was bad time, bad place kind of situation. And, I'm tying back to the story about seeing pregnant women on the street. I found myself a few months ago having that same feeling when I see people with work tags during their lunch breaks on the street, I'm having that sort of envious feeling But I, I switched my mindset. I'm like, oh, I'm so happy for them. They're working people, good for them that they're on their lunch break with their team.
[00:43:57] schahar: I miss colleagues. I miss like all the things that a work setup has. but I'm also much more content if the first few months were, again, very, very hard to cope with. I think time heals. And also I dunno if therapy actually helped, the professional coaching definitely didn't help.
[00:44:14] schahar: like we finished our sessions, it was like six sessions and by the sixth session he was like, well, Yeah.
[00:44:20] schahar: you're doing everything right. Like, you're pretty much doing everything you should be
[00:44:24] Mikenzie: more. You're like, great. I just paid all of this money and time to
[00:44:28] schahar: Yeah. but I tried, you know,
[00:44:30] schahar: I did give it a shot. same goes with, with therapy. I'm having a hard time saying, you know, this has been extremely helpful. I really think that time has just helped me see things in, a better perspective. And I'm really trying to hang on to, all good things.
[00:44:47] schahar: there's this beautiful, beautiful song in Hebrew that its translation is, all the truly beautiful things, come, at their own inconsiderate, slow timing. so Yeah.
[00:45:00] schahar: I literally have that hung up, so I'm really trying to live by that There are days when I'm completely unsuccessful and just really bummed out when another application is responded.
[00:45:11] schahar: You know, I get that automated reply of. I, I, I look for the word unfortunately. with, that kind of response, it's still quite difficult. but Yeah. I think that combination of now working on my thesis, and again, life being relatively fine, it's shitty in Israel right now, but the fact that I have a family in London and my kids are safe, you know, and we have this fantastic place in a neighborhood that we love.
[00:45:38] schahar: There are all those good things to hang onto that I'm trying to keep that positive mindset. Some days it works, some days it doesn't
[00:45:46] Mikenzie: It's a tough, tough situ. Another one that's out of your control. Right. Uh, I'm curious how it's been for you to, I guess, get to spend more time with your kids and I feel like you are a very career ambitious person who doesn't necessarily want to be. Full time with your kids.
[00:46:06] Mikenzie: So I'm sure there's advantages, but I'm also curious what comes up for you with that?
[00:46:11] schahar: of course, and I don't wanna come out as a really bad mom.
[00:46:14] Mikenzie: in a not bad mom way, because I feel like people feel
[00:46:17] Mikenzie: that way, but then they feel this guilt
[00:46:20] schahar: I love
[00:46:20] Mikenzie: I'm bad if I don't wanna spend all the
[00:46:22] Mikenzie: time with them, but I don't wanna wanna spend all the time
[00:46:24] schahar: exactly, I, I, I'm gonna put it this way. I love spending time with my kids, but 5, 6, 7 hours straight every day are enough. I don't need more than that.
[00:46:36] schahar: I can't cope with more than that. So when they are, you know, on halftime breaks or even long weekends, it gets really difficult sometimes. and I have that huge sigh of relief when they go back to daycare. I'm currently a soccer mom, and I'm not a soccer mom, so I don't like.
[00:46:55] schahar: That my day is mostly filled with errands that have to do with taking my kid to football and tennis and music, sessions and, you know, asking how, how his day was.he's five, so the response is usually, oh, good. but Yeah.
[00:47:14] schahar: and again, some days I enjoy it. I wish there was some kind of balance I could have done with a proper career and doing that.
[00:47:20] schahar: But the fact that most of my life is currently that right now, plus again, a bit of side projects that I'm trying to maintain for my sanity, and are actually really good for the community. but it's, it's not what I want. Like if you ask me now, what is it that you want? I want a full-time, steady job.
[00:47:37] schahar: I kind of want what was, Quote, unquote, taken from me. I felt like I had a really, really nice career and that somehow collapsed,a couple of years ago. And now I realize that trying to gain that back is probably impossible. And I should again, do that mindset switch and think what is possible?
[00:48:01] schahar: but,I'm, I'm definitely not the type of person who can only be, a full-time mom.
[00:48:06] schahar: And, I'll, Yeah, I'll see where that takes me. down the road. I really hope that one point I will manage to find work. You know, friends, family, everyone keeps saying, oh, you know, it will come, it will happen. But now it, it feels like it's been like this for so long. I, again, like with the pregnancy, I kind of start thinking maybe this won't happen for me.
[00:48:25] schahar: When you're still in that pit, it's really, really hard to find the light at the end of the tunnel. But hopefully it will appear at one point. And since the pit again, isn't that bad, I'm kind of Okay then. You know, I, I'm,
[00:48:41] Mikenzie: Yeah, but it's, hard
[00:48:43] schahar: It's hard. Oh, for sure, for sure. It's, and it's been a hard time and I'm sure that hard times are still ahead, but, I've managed to recalibrate my thinking right now into a place where I'm, almost forcing myself to look at the positives, and see where I can make use of my time right now to do what I like and do what I think is meaningful.
[00:49:04] Mikenzie: Well, you'll be finishing your master's, is
[00:49:07] Mikenzie: it? Are you done yet
[00:49:08] schahar: a couple. No, a couple months. I still have, I'm working on the literature review as we speak. yes, I've got a couple months of thesis work. and then, you know, it's summer holidays, so hopefully by September I'll start figuring out,
[00:49:22] schahar: what I wanna be when I grow up.
[00:49:24] Mikenzie: I feel the same way. So still trying to
[00:49:28] Mikenzie: figure
[00:49:29] schahar: it's a mystery.
[00:49:30] Mikenzie: I wanted to ask one more question and
[00:49:33] Mikenzie: then it just like a quick fire round. I saw on your website that you had reported on or wrote an article on, women breaking the glass ceiling.
[00:49:44] schahar: Yeah.
[00:49:45] Mikenzie: Can you tell us a little bit about that piece?
[00:49:48] schahar: that's a section actually with multiple pieces in it. so I was a, technically a culture reporter at the time, for that international channel out of Tel Aviv. but I am, I was driven to social justice and gender equality, stories, naturally. so many of the stories I covered were about, bedwin women, trying to find work and break stereotypical, norms in their societies.
[00:50:18] schahar: ultra orthodox, women in their communities. for example, trying to fight for their ability to vote in their, internal, elections for their, representative, representative, parties. So religious women aren't allowed to. Be elected as politicians or vote as politicians in the Ultra, the Orthodox, it's 2025. Yeah.
[00:50:42] schahar: In the ultra Orthodox parties in Israel. stories about, the fight that, a group called Women of the Wall, have been, I think putting up for at least three decades to stop the segregation of women and men in, in the Wailing Wall and the prayers there. I. Stop women from being forced to sit at the back of the bus in specific bus routes, in religious neighborhoods.
[00:51:11] schahar: So many stories that you'd sometimes be shocked that are happening in democratic liberal, Israel. And again, these are stories from about a decade ago. But the place of women in Israel and in other democratic countries around the world, still needs to be, highlighted and, you know, put a spotlight on, especially with, with unheard voices.
[00:51:34] schahar: So I was very proud of all these stories. I kept on going at CNN with a lot of gender related stories. In fact, one of the stories I'm most proud of, that I broke was about a trance boy who was rejected from the American Scout. And it made such headlines and, you know, CNN amplified it later on with multiple interviews of him and his mother, and it ended up with the American Boy Scouts opening their, their doors to, Yeah.
[00:52:06] schahar: like a hundred year old institution, changing their policy, opening their doors to, I think at first anyone who identified as a boy, and then later on just completely changing their name and, agenda and reputation.
[00:52:20] schahar: And I think that they no longer are the American Boy Scouts. It's like the Scouts of America or something like that for both boys and girls and trans children and whatever.
[00:52:30] Mikenzie: Such an incredible
[00:52:31] schahar: Can't take full credit, but it was sort of a, a beginning of something that then, snowballed into something really impactful, that I'm very proud
[00:52:38] Mikenzie: Well, I'm excited to check out that section of journalism pieces. It sounds really interesting and disturbing that is still happening for women today. It's a good reminder of how privileged we already even have these choices to think about. but long way to go for women and awesome to see the impact you've had.
[00:53:00] Mikenzie: I just wanna end on quick fire round. So three quick questions, quick response.
[00:53:05] Mikenzie: What's one thing your kids have taught you that's made you better in communications?
[00:53:09] schahar: is such a good question because I feel like I kept dreading. How will I educate them only to learn how much I need to educate myself.
[00:53:20] schahar: I did not know I have that, short amount of self-control and there are places, you know, I freak out or they drive me crazy. And I have to, get that sense of pulling myself together that I didn't know. Ihad to, you know, bring in so much effort to do, and communicate things just much more calmly and in a way that is nice for people to hear.
[00:53:45] schahar: even within my Israeli background, I wasn't aware how direct and abrupt I could be. so yeah, I'm definitely learning to be more chill, calm, and relax in the way I respond to sometimes infuriating situations.
[00:54:00] schahar: Definitely something that they keep teaching me every day.
[00:54:04] Mikenzie: we talked a little bit about it, but you've moved, I think two countries and three to four flats within having your children, and you're saying it's madness could be the whole section as well. I'm curious if there's one, tool or support system or thing that you guys did that made it the biggest difference in terms of managing those changes?
[00:54:28] schahar: A really good moving company. No, I'm joking. I think external help because having moved, again in countries where we don't have families, the fact that we very quickly either had this community of friends, that are sort of a. Different form of family in our local communities.
[00:54:50] schahar: plus, you know, paid help, especially when it came to the kids. yeah, that was, again, not taken for granted. I know not everyone can afford that. well not friends, the paid help. but yeah, just the most recent move, having a, a friend come over, taking the day off to spend with me, to, to move boxes and, and re put things in into place, was, was so helpful.
[00:55:13] schahar: socially fun as well. But yeah,have yourself surrounded by this, tight-knit group of people is,
[00:55:19] Mikenzie:
[00:55:19] schahar: is very helpful.
[00:55:21] Mikenzie: definitely. And what's one piece of advice you'd give your pre-kids self?
[00:55:28] schahar: I would, I mean, it's almost silly to say these things in retrospect. I would definitely reassure her that you will have kids someday, which I think was what panicked me the most at the time. I think I'd give her that advice that doctor gave me much sooner. I feel like.
[00:55:52] schahar: So many people told me to chill and calm and relax and let it go in a way that wasn't practical for me. And I think if I would've been told in my early thirties that, you know, there will be a struggle, it will end up being okay. But what you need to do is think positive thoughts. and here's an example.
[00:56:14] schahar: yeah, that would've probably saved me a lot of time of being, very upset. but that's so easy to say now.
[00:56:21] Mikenzie: Hindsight's always 2020, right? But that's kind of why it's
[00:56:24] Mikenzie: nice to hear it before going into motherhood of okay, remember these things that
[00:56:30] Mikenzie: get a little bit of a sneak peek,
[00:56:32] schahar: and it took me so long to say that because I'm kind of in the same situation now, only career wise. And you know, what will, Shahar of five years from now tell me. I'm sure she'll say everything will be
[00:56:44] Mikenzie: gonna work out.
[00:56:45] schahar: Yeah.
[00:56:46] schahar: so It's this hindsight thing that's always quite tricky.
[00:56:50] Mikenzie: Well, I'm excited to see what becomes of it. We're both in career transition periods, so be interesting to see what happens next year or in six months.
[00:57:02] schahar: Absolutely. maybe invite me to the next season. We'll see. You can do a follow up of, where things stand
[00:57:09] Mikenzie: I would love that. Well, I appreciate the time. This was so interesting. I've learned so much. Excited for everyone to hear it
[00:57:17] schahar: you. This was fun for me too. Thanks so much.
[00:57:19] Mikenzie: That's all for today's episode of Leaning My Way. If you're enjoying the show, please follow us on Apple
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[00:57:33] Mikenzie: Know someone with a unique story about balancing career and motherhood. Or maybe you have that story yourself. Reach out. I'd love to hear from you. Okay, until next time, friends.