How to Be the CMO Everyone Wants to Work With (with Dave Kellogg)

#342 | Recorded live at Exit Five's Marketing Leadership Retreat, this episode features Dave Kellogg sharing his framework for being the CMO everyone wants to work with. Dave draws on 12 years as a CMO across three companies, two CEO stints, and ten board seats to cover CMO failure archetypes, how to build a real partnership with your CRO, and why internal marketing is just as important as running marketing. Last time we had Dave on the podcast it was one of the most downloaded episodes of all-time, and this one is even better. Get your notebook read.

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What is The Dave Gerhardt Show (from Exit Five)?

Interviews with top marketers sharing tactical tips, strategies, and lessons learned to help you grow your business. Hosted by Dave Gerhardt, founder of Exit Five, former CMO, and author of Founder Brand. Learn more at exitfive.com

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:01]: You're listening to The Dave Gerhardt Show.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:17]: Alright.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:17]: This is a treat.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:18]: So this is a recording from Dave Kellogg live at our marketing leadership retreat.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:25]: The first ever one that we did eighty nine NPS, the highest rated event we've ever done.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:29]: And Dave was our keynote, and we have the recording exclusively for you here.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:34]: On the podcast, even if you didn't buy a ticket to the event, we're doing it here on my podcast.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:38]: Dave Kellogg has spent ten years as CMO, ten years as a CEO, and has sat on ten different boards ten ten ten.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:46]: I've been referencing his blog for a decade, he's been making me sounds smart for a long time when I was leading marketing.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:51]: So when I was thinking about how to kick off our first ever marketing leadership or treat, he was the first person we reached out to, and, no surprise, his session ended up being one of the most memorable moments from the whole event.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:03]: The room was a hundred CMOs and VPs from companies doing fifty to five hundred million revenue.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:08]: And Dave spent ninety minutes breaking down why marketing leaders fail, what the job actually is and how to become the CMO everybody wants to work with.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:15]: Even if you're not in a marketing leadership position today.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:18]: I thought this talk was great and really gives you a good sense of what it takes to be a great marketing leader.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:23]: Here it is how to become the CMO, everyone wants to work with, with Dave Kellogg.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:28]: Live, couple weeks ago in Arizona from our marketing leadership retreat.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:33]: Enjoy this episode.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:34]: The last time I had Dave on the podcast.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:35]: It was one of the most downloaded episodes ever.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:37]: I know this one will be too.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:40]: I asked Dave, when I was thinking about, like, alright, We don't wanna do a lot

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:43]: of content for this event, but I wanna have one thing to kick us off that's really meaningful.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:47]: And so I asked him to come because his wisdom, I think, is super incredibly relevant to all of you.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:52]: And Dave's is really interesting because he's been on all sides of the table.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:55]: He's spent ten years as a CMO, then ten years as a CEO.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:59]: He's been on ten boards.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:01]: He ran marketing at business objects and took them from thirty million to a billion.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:05]: He's been CEO twice, Anybody read his blog Kelblog over the years.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:09]: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:09]: Made me look smart more times than I can count.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:12]: And I've...

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:13]: I've been referencing this blog for a decade.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:15]: His writing was also, like, it's also some type of therapy for marketers.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:18]: He...

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:19]: His thinking helped me become more of a I love this term he talks about this in the deck.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:23]: The marketing leader needs to be a dis passion and analyst when it comes to talking about marketing performance.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:27]: At the company verse a younger version myself, I would always get very defensive and hot headed when we were talking about the performance and marketing.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:33]: There's never my fault.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:35]: I had him on the five podcast a couple years ago, and if you go into our transistor account, which is where we host the podcast and sort it.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:41]: His episode is still one of the top three most downloaded all time.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:45]: And the cool part is, I actually found out he goes to a bunch of our webinars and, like, reads my emails and he actually knows the content.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:51]: So, huge bonus when you can get someone to speak to the room and they actually know what they're doing.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:55]: So his talk to kick off this marketing leadership is called how to be the CMO everyone wants to work with, which I thought was great.

Dave Gerhardt [0:03:02]: Like and I hope it'll be an evergreen manual for you not to just survive, but thrive in your career as a marketing exec, Please help me give a warm welcome to mister Dave Kellogg.

Dave Kellogg[0:03:18]: So there are a couple of chairs.

Dave Kellogg[0:03:19]: I since people standing back.

Dave Kellogg[0:03:21]: I just freaked up to one for me that I don't need any one my hat.

Dave Kellogg[0:03:24]: So feel free to down tire.

Dave Kellogg[0:03:27]: Thanks to a great introduction Dave.

Dave Kellogg[0:03:30]: Actually there's only one left now Dave took this So I'll start today by asking making observation, and then asking you a question.

Dave Kellogg[0:03:43]: And the observations is the median tenure for CMO these days is eighteen to twenty four months.

Dave Kellogg[0:03:49]: Thank you professional Forgot to do that.

Dave Kellogg[0:03:54]: Damn.

Dave Kellogg[0:03:56]: So media tenure, First, I suspect people could hear me anyway to be honest, yeah I'd be advantage of having a loud voice.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:04]: Eighteen to twenty four months.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:06]: And this really crystallize to be blunt.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:07]: So Was my friend Lance, who's was a repeat CMO, and he was interviewing for a job.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:11]: And I like, he lance asked you to take this as a gig thing or you gonna, like, go in full time.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:15]: And his answer was what's the difference?

Dave Kellogg[0:04:17]: We're all long term interim anyway.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:20]: Which is just like, wow.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:23]: I I I was in some level is true.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:25]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:04:26]: If we're gonna last Eighteen months, we're kind of long term interim.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:28]: And at another level back to the emotion, part of this, isn't it actually a healthier mentality to think of yourself that way.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:34]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:04:34]: There are a lot of times in my career.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:35]: I was already being hot head where I would have been better off.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:37]: Just thinking to myself, hey, This is just a job.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:40]: You don't take it so personal your long term interest.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:42]: Like, the gig mentality might have actually helped me.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:44]: So do better in the job.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:45]: So...

Dave Kellogg[0:04:46]: But the question is if that is a fact, so that's the observation.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:49]: The question is why?

Dave Kellogg[0:04:50]: So...

Dave Kellogg[0:04:51]: And as they say in reality Tv.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:53]: The interaction begins now.

Dave Kellogg[0:04:54]: Why?

Dave Kellogg[0:04:55]: Why why did we last eighteen months?

Dave Kellogg[0:04:59]: Shout it out for

Dave Gerhardt [0:05:01]: actual aspect

Dave Kellogg[0:05:01]: expectations Okay.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:02]: Unrealistic expectations.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:04]: They're gonna recast it slightly.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:05]: Much of they're a irrational.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:06]: It's a little strong.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:09]: Hard to measure.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:12]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:12]: Not not easily measured.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:13]: Shout amount.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:14]: No faith and attribution.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:17]: Okay.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:23]: Marketing spread they got a lot of head headphones on that one.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:25]: Marketing expect to solve self marketing problem.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:26]: Other people.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:27]: Poor internal communication.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:29]: Cool.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:30]: Keeping in coming.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:30]: Investment.

Dave Gerhardt [0:05:33]: Not understood.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:34]: Not understood.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:34]: Nobody understands us.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:35]: It's hard to be us.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:36]: No.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:38]: True.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:39]: I I agree all these.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:40]: I I just, Not surprised yet.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:42]: I don't wanna be surprised when keep them coming.

Speaker_4 [0:05:44]: Well, Each shift.

Speaker_4 [0:05:45]: They hire one type of marketer than eighteen months later didn't need another ad marketer.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:51]: Okay.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:51]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:51]: The neat shift.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:52]: The company hired a type a marketer and they to type b.

Speaker_4 [0:05:54]: These all time time this is cell.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:57]: Results are not tied to business outcomes.

Dave Kellogg[0:05:58]: So what heard?

Dave Kellogg[0:05:59]: K?

Dave Kellogg[0:05:59]: Yeah?

Dave Kellogg[0:06:00]: Crazy Who's crazy?

Dave Kellogg[0:06:02]: The founder.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:03]: The founder crazy.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:04]: I'll guess.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:04]: That's kind of a give.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:06]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:06:07]: Easy.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:07]: That's just a endemic in the work environment.

Speaker_4 [0:06:12]: Doesn't work.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:13]: The product doesn't work.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:14]: Certainly does happen.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:16]: I've seen it.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:16]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:06:17]: Not not a card we like to play, but sometimes we have to.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:20]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:20]: Growth slows out of marketing is buoyant.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:24]: Okay.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:24]: Good.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:25]: Keep in coming.

Speaker_5 [0:06:26]: Lack of trust.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:27]: Lack of trust.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:27]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:29]: Oh, yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:29]: Keep in coming.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:30]: Budget cuts.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:30]: Budget cuts.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:31]: Boom.

Speaker_4 [0:06:32]: Lack of innovation.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:33]: Lack of innovation.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:34]: True.

Speaker_6 [0:06:35]: CEO thinks he's the marketer.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:37]: Since say one more time?

Speaker_6 [0:06:38]: CMO.

Speaker_6 [0:06:38]: CEO thinks he's the marketer.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:40]: Oh, I imagine It was, like working for me.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:43]: It was, like, total nightmare.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:44]: Like, this is my CMO was out...

Dave Kellogg[0:06:46]: Like, I worked at sales works for a while.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:47]: Being Denny off CMO is, like, a really hard job.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:50]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:06:50]: Because because he, he actually is the CMO.

Dave Kellogg[0:06:52]: So...

Dave Kellogg[0:06:53]: But in any case, you've got a...

Dave Kellogg[0:06:54]: Maybe a real marketer or CEO or maybe a wannabe be marketer or CEO, but either way, your life is much more difficult.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:01]: Keep him coming.

Speaker_4 [0:07:02]: CEO out.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:04]: CMO burnout.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:04]: Happens a lot.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:05]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:07:05]: These people aren't all fired.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:06]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:07:07]: A lot of them quit.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:07]: At that eighteen months.

Speaker_4 [0:07:10]: So Wrapping up great CFO so they get hired somewhere else.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:14]: Sales leadership.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:14]: Finish that one.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:16]: They were gonna be.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:16]: Sales Bridge realign.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:18]: Super common and I heard one.

Speaker_4 [0:07:21]: I.

Speaker_4 [0:07:21]: So I think there aren't enough upgrade CMOs to go right so they got hired elsewhere.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:25]: They get stolen.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:26]: Yeah Oh, I like that one.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:27]: Pretty positive.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:28]: Okay.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:29]: So so these are some of the reasons why.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:32]: And I wanna come back in a minute.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:33]: If we're gonna try and categorize them a little bit and learn from them.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:37]: But just in case...

Dave Kellogg[0:07:38]: So Dave bought by ten ten ten positioning.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:40]: It worked.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:41]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:07:41]: He literally that good...

Dave Kellogg[0:07:42]: I...

Dave Kellogg[0:07:42]: That's why I position myself Ten Ten ten.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:44]: Ten years as CEO, ten years a CMO, ten different boards.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:47]: And the reality are actually slightly longer as twelve years as a CMO across three companies.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:52]: The most recent of which was during Covid.

Dave Kellogg[0:07:55]: So I did a really unusual thing in my career, which is I went kind of product marketing person to VP Marketing slash.

Dave Kellogg[0:08:00]: And then CMO, then CEO, then Sv gm in Salesforce then CEO again, and then we became an advisor and then Covid happened.

Dave Kellogg[0:08:08]: And one of my companies is like, hey, can you run marketing?

Dave Kellogg[0:08:10]: Oh my after three days a week, I'll hold the Ford no big deal, and three days a week turned it to six, And, you know, two months turned into twelve, and I basically ran marketing for a year.

Dave Kellogg[0:08:19]: So it was it was...

Dave Kellogg[0:08:20]: I learned an enormous amount from it.

Dave Kellogg[0:08:22]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:08:22]: Having done all that stuff before, and kind of nostalgic or romanticized what it was to be a CFO.

Dave Kellogg[0:08:28]: It was like, holy shit, you know, I really love twenty percent of this job.

Dave Kellogg[0:08:32]: Like you know, the other lady of that's a ser, but but I really love twenty percent of this job.

Dave Kellogg[0:08:38]: So I do consider myself marketing person like, by Dna.

Dave Kellogg[0:08:41]: But I do...

Dave Kellogg[0:08:43]: The the ten ten the purpose of the ten ten position positioning to say, one of the value props I can bring to you is, I can kinda say, let's look at this as a CMO.

Dave Kellogg[0:08:50]: Let's look at this as a CEO.

Dave Kellogg[0:08:51]: Let's look at as a board member and and how does it sound?

Dave Kellogg[0:08:54]: To be able to switch those hats.

Dave Kellogg[0:08:56]: So is part of my unique selling proposition.

Dave Kellogg[0:08:58]: And and, hopefully, we can try to leverage that today.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:00]: There's a lot of people to talk about how to run marketing well.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:03]: So this slide is partially for the online deck because I'm gonna post the slides.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:07]: And they're gonna be people who work for me, Like, that guy thinks he was the CMO, everyone wanted to work with.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:12]: Like, no no.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:15]: I I I need to claim this in park, But I think and this is part of my CEO coaching I do a lot.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:23]: I think I got what mattered right.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:25]: And that's that's my definition of the CEO's job to get what matters right.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:29]: And if gets the question of what matters.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:31]: So it's actually an incredibly hard question if you're the CEO.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:33]: And if you're like me as a marketer, I was kind of a perfection this.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:37]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:09:37]: I wanted straight a's.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:38]: I wanted everything to be perfect.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:40]: I wanted everything done well.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:41]: I wanted the names to be legible on the game tags.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:44]: I want a double sided game tags.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:46]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:09:49]: I cared about the details.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:50]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:09:51]: I wanted everything to be perfect.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:53]: And that's not a good instinct in an executive.

Dave Kellogg[0:09:55]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:09:56]: It may get us good grades at school, it may get us promoted when we're starting our careers, but when we hit the top, you really need to switch mentality too.

Dave Kellogg[0:10:04]: I don't want straight a's.

Dave Kellogg[0:10:05]: I want some a's and some c's and maybe an effort or to.

Dave Kellogg[0:10:07]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:10:08]: And I wanna figure out what actually matters.

Dave Kellogg[0:10:11]: And that's...

Dave Kellogg[0:10:12]: I give that advice to CEOs all the time because I think it's their job.

Dave Kellogg[0:10:16]: As a...

Dave Kellogg[0:10:16]: As it turned out.

Dave Kellogg[0:10:17]: It just happened to work for me.

Dave Kellogg[0:10:18]: I think I got in my CMO career?

Dave Kellogg[0:10:20]: I think I got what mattered right by accident.

Dave Kellogg[0:10:23]: Let's just say, one, I had always very strong relationship with sales.

Dave Kellogg[0:10:26]: We're gonna talk about that today, like, what that means and how do you know if you have one?

Dave Kellogg[0:10:30]: And also, I I was able to see the whole business in discussions with the CEO.

Dave Kellogg[0:10:34]: I didn't have much of a board relationship and I was CMO, and I do believe CMO should.

Dave Kellogg[0:10:39]: So I think it's incredibly useful to your career.

Dave Kellogg[0:10:42]: I have friends who...

Dave Kellogg[0:10:44]: Maybe this is an old example, but who's plugged in by Vcs consecutively to, like, Inform, Market and Net app.

Dave Kellogg[0:10:51]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:10:51]: He did four year gigs of those three companies, like, handed him on a silver platter by a Vc saying, we need to see...

Dave Kellogg[0:10:57]: You know how much money do you when you do those three gigs in a row.

Dave Kellogg[0:10:59]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:11:00]: Like, it is a very profitable way to earn a living.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:04]: So Vc can help you enormously in your career, or Pe people if you're Pe back, But sometimes we don't build the relationships with them, and I think we we we should.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:14]: But I didn't.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:15]: I built one.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:16]: Fortunately, I built one and it was useful.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:17]: And then for the team, I got reasonable marks, but people didn't like my feedback style.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:22]: There's a blog post on that.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:23]: About the three golden rules of feedback.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:26]: The they are in short.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:27]: One has to be timely.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:28]: Has to be honest.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:29]: I was always was really good at those.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:30]: So sometimes too timely, like, in the meeting.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:32]: Like, with everyone around.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:35]: Okay.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:35]: That...

Dave Kellogg[0:11:36]: A no, don't be too timely.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:37]: Honest is always good, but I wasn't always kind and that was a third rule that I think it's an excellent rule for feedback.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:43]: Honest timely, not too timely.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:45]: Always honest, and they'd try to be kind in the way you're giving it.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:49]: And I was not good at that, immediately.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:50]: So I will tell you that I built this presentation in gamma, and I spent twenty five minutes trying to get the reflected face not to look wrong.

Dave Kellogg[0:11:58]: I making it confident, but not too confident.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:02]: Make it pens.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:02]: Big.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:03]: And it it produces like this green idiot on one of them.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:07]: It it was...

Dave Kellogg[0:12:09]: You know, that was AI productivity for me.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:11]: But I didn't even bother to worry about the hair.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:17]: It's like, I'm not bald I don't have very.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:19]: But, anyway, CMO failure patterns.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:21]: That's what we started talking about.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:23]: Why does CMOs fail.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:24]: That's...

Dave Kellogg[0:12:25]: We're gonna rejoin that conversation now.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:27]: Then we're gonna talk briefly.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:28]: I'm so very top down presentation.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:30]: We're gonna start, like, why do we fail.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:32]: Then we're gonna talk about the three jobs of the CMO, which started as two jobs that the Boss ones told me.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:38]: Then third, the the me of the presentation is the ten tapes for running marketing to be CMO everybody wants to work with.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:44]: In the argument for being the CMO, everyone wants to work with is as follows.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:48]: One kind of belt and suspend.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:50]: Or if you shoot to be the CMO would just stays employed, and you miss you fail.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:54]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:12:54]: But if you shoot for a higher bar and miss maybe you stay employed.

Dave Kellogg[0:12:58]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:12:58]: But but but the other reason is it's gonna help you longer term with career opportunity.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:02]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:13:03]: Not just thought that was a decent CMO.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:04]: Doesn't CMO.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:05]: Like, I love work with that CMO.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:06]: I everybody love we're with this CMO.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:07]: So I think it's a very important part of the job.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:11]: To aspire to be that.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:13]: And the unless it could get you promotions.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:15]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:13:15]: It could give you a shot to be a CEO, People like working with you.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:18]: So my argument is there's nothing wrong with shooting for the higher bar of not just being an effective CMO, but a CMO who people want to work with, who recruiters want to recruit.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:27]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:13:28]: Who see who boards want to retain.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:30]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:13:30]: So so maybe we should shoot for that higher bar.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:33]: I've got ten tips on how I think you can do it.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:35]: Double talk about marketing marketing, and then we will wrap up.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:39]: So We're gonna try and leave q and a at the end, but I also wanna do interaction in the beginning.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:44]: I don't wanna just blast through this thing and then have q and a.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:47]: I have a couple laundry lists here because we're all in different situations and I know that.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:52]: So the purpose of these lists is to for you to find a little bit of yourself and some of them.

Dave Kellogg[0:13:58]: And it's gonna be different for each of you.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:00]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:14:01]: But but the list is up here, and I'll walk through it in a minute.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:04]: So you could say, is there any of me in that He lick.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:07]: Am I a He liquor?

Dave Kellogg[0:14:08]: Do I in choke in board meetings?

Dave Kellogg[0:14:11]: I have CMO I work with?

Dave Kellogg[0:14:13]: Top school Nba super smart undergrad, lots of great experience, super competent marketer, put them in a board meeting?

Dave Kellogg[0:14:18]: And it's literally this person needs to Hi.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:22]: I I do not understand why, But but I'm working with them and trying to coach them and how to get better.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:28]: And the remediation for each one of these things.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:30]: If you are a he liquor.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:32]: If you're right.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:32]: I do choke in board meetings.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:33]: Why do I choke in boarding, that that the, I was trying to find someone to help you.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:38]: Ideally somebody like me who's both sat on boards and bit a marketer.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:41]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:14:42]: Or just maybe find a board member, just find somebody who could help you with the problem that I choke in board meetings because trust me you do not want choke in board meetings.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:50]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:14:50]: Boards were making a decision about you very quickly.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:53]: And in one day, either of a board members to say, hey.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:55]: Should we get a new CMO or the CEO is gonna say, how It's thinking I should get a new CMO.

Dave Kellogg[0:14:59]: And you want the board members to go, Sally, we love Sally.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:03]: She gives great presentations.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:04]: What's the problem with thought.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:05]: And that's the reaction you want.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:06]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:15:07]: You don't want...

Dave Kellogg[0:15:08]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:08]: See Hell You don't seem to under underperforming in the meetings or joe wanna perform of these meetings.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:12]: You don't...

Dave Kellogg[0:15:12]: That's what you don't wanna have happen.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:14]: So hi Tucker is one I'm working with now.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:17]: I've got choke her.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:17]: You don't see this as much anymore, but I never liked them myself, the vendor Whisperer.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:21]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:15:22]: The CMO who's surrounded by vendors, and they never seen have an opinion about anything.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:25]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:15:26]: There's always just what vendor here.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:27]: Does this a better.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:28]: This isn't gonna be...

Dave Kellogg[0:15:29]: Like, like, personally, I don't like those.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:30]: Like, I'm always wondering, like, what do you do other than hire, very expensive vendors.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:35]: Not everyone feels that way, but I do.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:37]: The finger pointer, but so my first name is the.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:40]: It was a thirty million dollar company.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:42]: I ran marketing there.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:43]: For nine years since we became a billion dollar company.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:45]: But the very first day I got to watch my predecessor, which is a really weird experience.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:48]: They overlap us for some reason, and it was a Qb, and I watched the meeting, and I'm like, I never want that to be me for because because this guy was, like, hyper defense, like, June, not my fault.

Dave Kellogg[0:15:59]: Not my fault.

Dave Kellogg[0:16:00]: Not my fault.

Dave Kellogg[0:16:00]: Not my and just taking shots from all directions, and it it was, like, I I literally I grown my but don't be that guy, like, triple underline and, like, how I'm gonna do everything in my career not to end up in this meeting, not to end up hyper defensive with everyone taking shots at me.

Dave Kellogg[0:16:18]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:16:18]: This one's harder to get out of once you're in it.

Dave Kellogg[0:16:20]: But I have one very simple tip for you you can't be defensive if you're not talking.

Dave Kellogg[0:16:26]: Just think about that for a second.

Dave Kellogg[0:16:28]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:16:28]: If you're talking, you may or may not be being defensive.

Dave Kellogg[0:16:31]: We we offer...

Dave Kellogg[0:16:32]: I don't wanna be defensive, but, like, how how how often have you that?

Dave Kellogg[0:16:35]: Like, if you're seeing that, just stop, But, you know, I don't think I'm gonna say anything.

Dave Kellogg[0:16:40]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:16:41]: You're better off just stopping.

Dave Kellogg[0:16:42]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:16:43]: But so if you are a finger pointer, and you are perceived as defensive, the first thing you can do is just listen more.

Dave Kellogg[0:16:50]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:16:51]: Because defensive people, If Dave's critique, I won't even let him finish this point.

Dave Kellogg[0:16:54]: But Dave, you don't understand.

Dave Kellogg[0:16:55]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:16:56]: I'm gonna interrupt before he's even said which that person won't like especially if our board member.

Dave Kellogg[0:17:00]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:17:00]: They're not gonna like that.

Dave Kellogg[0:17:01]: And you're now talking instead listening.

Dave Kellogg[0:17:05]: If you're worried about being defensive, just talk less first tip.

Dave Kellogg[0:17:08]: Just listen more.

Dave Kellogg[0:17:10]: This is really teach teaches sales my favorite sales training, and there's a lot of them is selling through curiosity, and and the whole course I'll reduce to one thing, be genuinely curious.

Dave Kellogg[0:17:18]: So if someone's attacking you, being genuinely curious.

Dave Kellogg[0:17:21]: Why does this bothers too much?

Dave Kellogg[0:17:23]: Why did you take that program so much.

Dave Kellogg[0:17:24]: Why did you do this?

Dave Kellogg[0:17:25]: I really wanna know why?

Dave Kellogg[0:17:26]: This is back to the dis dispatcher thing Dave talked about.

Dave Kellogg[0:17:29]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:17:29]: I'm am genuinely curious.

Dave Kellogg[0:17:31]: I've gonna kinda have an out of body experience.

Dave Kellogg[0:17:33]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:17:33]: I'm not gonna be me and get all angry and fight with you?

Dave Kellogg[0:17:36]: I'm gonna kinda step out of my body and say, tell me more.

Dave Kellogg[0:17:40]: Why why do you dislike what we did?

Dave Kellogg[0:17:42]: Other ones, I'll do two more then we could talk.

Dave Kellogg[0:17:46]: Please.

Dave Gerhardt [0:17:48]: I wrote this down we could

Dave Gerhardt [0:17:49]: remember if articulate my.

Dave Gerhardt [0:17:50]: This like a version this person.

Dave Kellogg[0:17:55]: Okay.

Dave Gerhardt [0:18:03]: That

Dave Kellogg[0:18:07]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:18:07]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:18:07]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:18:08]: Tasmania devil is a favorite.

Dave Kellogg[0:18:09]: Think thank you for for highlighting it.

Dave Kellogg[0:18:11]: Does anybody else did anyone know a Tasmania devil?

Dave Kellogg[0:18:14]: Do you wanna wanna talk...

Dave Kellogg[0:18:15]: So talk to me about this Tasmania devils.

Dave Kellogg[0:18:16]: What do you think of them?

Dave Kellogg[0:18:17]: When you watch them dev and spinning, What's going through your head?

Dave Kellogg[0:18:21]: Security?

Dave Kellogg[0:18:22]: Interesting.

Dave Kellogg[0:18:26]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:18:27]: How do you think a board feels when when they watch it Tasmania and devil?

Dave Kellogg[0:18:31]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:18:33]: Dizzy is good word?

Dave Kellogg[0:18:34]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:18:35]: It the typical reaction will be one the Tasmania and devil leaves the board meeting.

Dave Kellogg[0:18:38]: It it'll be...

Dave Kellogg[0:18:39]: What what the hell is that?

Dave Kellogg[0:18:40]: Like, what just happened?

Dave Kellogg[0:18:41]: Like, we don't know what just happened here.

Dave Kellogg[0:18:44]: If it was a good tasmania devil, but, the person seemed really smart, and they seem to care a lot, But please don't invited to board again.

Dave Kellogg[0:18:52]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:18:53]: And and if it was a bad tasmania devil, it'll be like, I think whether were saying didn't make sense.

Dave Kellogg[0:18:59]: The numbers didn't foot nothing added up.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:00]: You...

Dave Kellogg[0:19:00]: This person is just a defensive screen around an incompetent person.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:04]: But but those are the two outcomes.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:06]: It's either seems is great.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:08]: Don't wanna see them again ever.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:10]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:19:11]: Oh, or or famous quote wants this happened to do with Cro I work with.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:15]: The board said, was that the Cro or the VP of sales ops?

Dave Kellogg[0:19:20]: I'm confused.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:21]: Literally, there's actual question from board member.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:23]: And and as you may have noticed, I...

Dave Kellogg[0:19:26]: Marketing person, so I like to position things.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:27]: That's a massive positioning problem.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:29]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:19:30]: You're the Cro and through your behavior in your side, you came off as a head of ops.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:34]: So the Ta media devil could also be because that was the head marketing ops.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:38]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:19:38]: That wasn't actually the executive running marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:40]: Any other archetypes people like or questions about or recognize?

Dave Kellogg[0:19:43]: Which one?

Speaker_4 [0:19:47]: Love more about the sneaker.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:48]: The scape go, oh, I love that one.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:49]: That's a favorite.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:50]: So this is a story by a friend Pete called, and he said, hey, Dave, could you come in and work with our company?

Dave Kellogg[0:19:55]: And I did.

Dave Kellogg[0:19:55]: And I met with Pete and I met with Cro, and I met with CEO and was kind of one of these Slick enterprise Cro, and he's like, well, let me tell you what our problem is.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:05]: Her problem.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:05]: You know, we have a very good salesforce, and they can close all the deals we need to.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:09]: We're just not getting enough a bats and, you know, really our problem this type of top of funnel.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:14]: And, no.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:15]: No.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:15]: Three x play this market.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:16]: Three x pipeline won't do it.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:17]: We need four x actually five x.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:19]: We need to start quarters of five x pipeline coverage.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:20]: And I'm like, okay.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:22]: Okay.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:22]: Mh.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:23]: I could see here.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:24]: Now let's talk about the founder because this could go well.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:27]: This could go very badly.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:28]: And well, the founder product oriented person doesn't know anything about go to market.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:31]: K?

Dave Kellogg[0:20:32]: So I had one question for Pete.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:34]: Does anyone...

Dave Kellogg[0:20:34]: Too hard to guess, I'm gonna see if anyone gets it.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:36]: What are...

Dave Kellogg[0:20:37]: After knowing everything I just told you, what he...

Dave Kellogg[0:20:39]: Was the first question I asked pete?

Dave Kellogg[0:20:40]: And guess, what be the first question you ask pete?

Dave Kellogg[0:20:43]: If you're trying to help Pete.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:44]: How much time do you spend with the CEO versus the Cro.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:48]: That was my question.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:50]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:20:51]: Because this guy has a world view where you are squarely my friend under the bus.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:56]: You are looking up at the transmission and the oil pan.

Dave Kellogg[0:20:59]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:20:59]: Like, everything is your fault.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:01]: Stated very elegantly.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:02]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:21:03]: But the possibility that maybe we should close more than one than five of our deals doesn't seem to occur to them.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:08]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:21:08]: The the fact that marketing needs to generate all the pipeline doesn't seem to occur to them.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:12]: So the first place I went to was time.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:14]: Because we got a product oriented founder who doesn't know any better.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:17]: And we need to help them learn about our go to market.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:20]: And the answer was I could bear Pete said I could barely get time with the CEO and the Cro spends all kinds of time with them.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:27]: And I'm like, you're done because you you need to either make a rule.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:31]: This I told it didn't work in the.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:33]: But I said, make a rule where every time the CEO is talking about, go to market with sales.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:37]: They invite you in, and you're always available.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:39]: Or when they're traveling go because they did a lot of road shows together?

Dave Kellogg[0:21:43]: Just say, I wanna go on the road show with you guys, because I cannot...

Dave Kellogg[0:21:45]: I cannot let this other person shape this CEO's viewpoint.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:49]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:21:50]: For for two reasons, what self preservation because it's putting me under the bus.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:54]: But actually more importantly from my perspective, it's gonna get the wrong answer.

Dave Kellogg[0:21:57]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:21:58]: If you need...

Dave Kellogg[0:21:59]: If you need five x pipeline coverage, I have a bunch of questions.

Dave Kellogg[0:22:02]: It's possible, I suppose.

Dave Kellogg[0:22:04]: But but but I have a bunch of questions about what happens to deals and once we find them.

Dave Kellogg[0:22:09]: Does that makes sense?

Dave Kellogg[0:22:10]: Was that okay.

Dave Kellogg[0:22:11]: Yeah.

Speaker_4 [0:22:23]: The company where those two thirds are imported or higher.

Dave Kellogg[0:22:28]: The two thirds is a really interesting one because, you know, for all the company needs is x and y, You know, hey.

Dave Kellogg[0:22:33]: Great.

Dave Kellogg[0:22:33]: Go be a two thirds.

Dave Kellogg[0:22:35]: No problem.

Dave Kellogg[0:22:36]: The place where I see hurts people's careers is if you take a a demand gen person and give them the c CEO job.

Dave Kellogg[0:22:44]: And they don't lean in.

Dave Kellogg[0:22:46]: Like, I actually watch one of these go down, where where we made a demand gen person the CMO, and and I always say over.

Dave Kellogg[0:22:51]: A big position personally.

Dave Kellogg[0:22:53]: If they think your weak position the strong if they think you're dumb position just smartly, like just over compensate to the opposite.

Dave Kellogg[0:22:58]: So they think your demand, gen, so go dive into product marketing hard.

Dave Kellogg[0:23:02]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:23:03]: And instead, she did not...

Dave Kellogg[0:23:05]: I'm even go to product marketing because I doing consulting with the company.

Dave Kellogg[0:23:08]: And, like, you're CMO, you've got a VP product marketing, We're having position meetings with the CEO, me and they head a product marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:23:13]: You're not there.

Dave Kellogg[0:23:14]: That's a super bad look on the two thirds.

Dave Kellogg[0:23:17]: You are confirming the two thirds positioning your comps and demand gen, you've got zero product marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:23:23]: And in this particular case, you seem to have zero interest product marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:23:27]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:23:27]: Because because there's a board number and CEO.

Dave Kellogg[0:23:29]: I actually think interest is a huge part of it.

Dave Kellogg[0:23:32]: Like, if you say, if I have two candidates through both demand and people say they're both demand and and comm and have no product.

Dave Kellogg[0:23:37]: And one is telling me I'm super jacked to take this job because I want embrace product marketing and learn about product marketing, and I wanna to spend all my time with our great head product marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:23:45]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:23:46]: Versus somebody who's like, yeah, I'm gonna hire product marketing and and delegate that to Joe or Sally.

Dave Kellogg[0:23:50]: Just...

Dave Kellogg[0:23:51]: I'm, I don't really need to be a part of that.

Dave Kellogg[0:23:53]: I want this person every time.

Dave Kellogg[0:23:54]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:23:55]: Because this person is telling me there are two thirds Wanna stay at two thirds, and they just wanna manage the other function.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:00]: For Resume, whatever.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:02]: But so the thing I personally is, of course interest.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:05]: Like, convince me you are interested in this.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:07]: And the fastest way to convince me, you're not interested in this is to hire somebody else to do it and leave malone.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:13]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:24:13]: I had one.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:14]: I'll give you one example, The company I work with pretty big and they're...

Dave Kellogg[0:24:18]: They decompose marketing, which is fairly common these days, which I don't like as you could imagine.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:22]: But they say, okay.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:24]: And this is another true story.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:25]: I was gonna do this on the first slide.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:26]: The CEO is fred white company because I just can't do it.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:30]: I can't do it.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:31]: And I'm like, you can't do what.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:32]: He's was like, I can't hire another CMO.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:34]: This this company has said five CMOs in four years.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:37]: I can't do it.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:38]: I'm I'm just not gonna do it.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:40]: I'm not gonna touch the hot stove again.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:42]: So that that was the start of the conversation, and it was like, okay.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:47]: Well, we're not gonna hire our CMO because because you you don't wanna touch the hot stove.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:50]: So so what are we gonna do and we decompose it.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:53]: We said product marketing is gonna go to the product business units which they had.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:56]: Demand Jen is gonna go to the Cro.

Dave Kellogg[0:24:58]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:24:59]: And then corporate communications a brand will report to you as an Sv of Com brand.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:04]: So we'll decompose marketing in that way and you wanna tire CMO.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:07]: So least make sense whether you agree with it or not.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:08]: K.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:09]: Yep.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:10]: You got it.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:11]: So so they they did that.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:12]: And then I told the Cro, the same thing I just told you, which is you need to convince people you care about marketing that you're not just managing this as self preservation that you have a genuine interest.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:21]: First thing, she did was put marketing under offs.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:24]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:26]: Now they have a hell of an ops person.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:28]: Don't get me wrong.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:29]: They have a hell of an ops person, but still, like just bad but you wanna be at two thirds, like, that's how you become a two thirds because you told me.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:37]: I didn't tell you you told me through your behavior through your org truck.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:40]: That that you wanna be at two thirds that you don't actually care about managing it just like at your resume.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:44]: Any other ones.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:46]: Yeah.

Speaker_4 [0:25:47]: More question of how much because this happens all the factors need

Dave Kellogg[0:25:51]: to?

Dave Kellogg[0:25:51]: Yeah.

Speaker_4 [0:25:51]: The advisory work?

Speaker_4 [0:25:52]: Where the CEO, you tried

Speaker_5 [0:25:54]: this CEO Y should stay together reporting versus allowing.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:58]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:25:58]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:00]: So that...

Dave Kellogg[0:26:00]: So I'm gonna go back to my example because that is my natural inclination, but there was just no way I could say that to this guy.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:07]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:26:07]: Like, literally, I can't do it.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:10]: Like, you use...

Dave Kellogg[0:26:10]: So sometimes you have to go it.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:12]: Right If you're an advisor.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:13]: So I didn't even bother make the argument in that case because sometimes the cards are just dealt, and this person's is, like, I'm gonna lose credibility of the board if I hire another one and fail.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:21]: Like, I I can be put my own job at risk.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:24]: Let mean fill in some of the dots here.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:25]: So sometimes it's just not an option.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:28]: You have to d decompose marketing, and and, like, I'm a little clever.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:31]: I I I make sure that the person iron comes brand could actually take whole thing.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:35]: So so...

Dave Kellogg[0:26:36]: And when we recruit the person in comm and brand, you say, I'm not super subtle.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:40]: But, you know, I couldn't imagine one day that this was re our.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:43]: You know, like, I...

Dave Kellogg[0:26:45]: One day I could see this get to take the job on the table, which is Comm and brand.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:48]: But we like about your background as you do with some demand gen, and you have some product.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:52]: So one day if we decided to recon this, you would be certainly a really good candidate, and especially if official confidence in this.

Dave Kellogg[0:26:59]: So that's the best I can do in some of these situations because there was no way.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:02]: In that particular situation was...

Dave Kellogg[0:27:04]: And I rarely see non starters, but the the the hot stove guy is was like, I can't.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:08]: Like, oh, my tell got a not marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:10]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:10]: I can't do it.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:11]: Other other failure patterns.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:12]: Yep.

Speaker_4 [0:27:13]: The second guess.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:14]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:14]: Thank you.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:15]: So gamma at work.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:18]: Two or three times, I...

Dave Kellogg[0:27:19]: That's a typo.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:20]: It should be the second guest.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:22]: Thank you for getting it, and and gamma kept rebranding it to second guess.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:26]: But the second guest is I e a person who's being second guest to buy others.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:31]: It puts up a attribution table.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:34]: The marketing by channel.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:35]: That this is a classic board meeting moment.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:38]: I hope you never live it.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:39]: But but they put up...

Dave Kellogg[0:27:41]: It's just it's just...

Dave Kellogg[0:27:43]: So they they put up all...

Dave Kellogg[0:27:45]: Some various high level marketing channels, you know, trade shows of ads, direct mail, webinars, whatever performance.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:49]: We're get it.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:51]: And they put the cost per, and trade shows shows up with twenty five thousand dollar cost per.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:56]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:27:56]: It's enormously high, cost per.

Dave Kellogg[0:27:58]: And and I call this retinal burn.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:00]: So that when that chart goes there, it burns into the retina of the CEO.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:04]: Like, for three years, you're gonna be hearing that trade shows cost twenty five thousand dollars per baratheon.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:10]: Right.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:11]: Sure.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:11]: This is...

Dave Kellogg[0:28:11]: This is actual true story where where that happened.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:14]: And you did it to yourself.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:16]: I'm gonna argue first.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:17]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:17]: The CEO was a willing collaborator, but you're you're you're the person who put the chart up with the twenty five thousand dollars per...

Dave Kellogg[0:28:23]: Shade show without claiming it.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:25]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:28:25]: You didn't give them kind of eclipse sunglasses or anything.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:27]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:28:28]: You showed it to their naked eye.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:30]: And it burned in the back.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:33]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:28:34]: So so it takes two to tango on that.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:35]: Shade But the second guess is the person who's showing that table an important member goes, why don't we just stop doing trade shows there.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:44]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:28:44]: And this ask question, What do you doing when that happens?

Dave Kellogg[0:28:48]: If you...

Dave Kellogg[0:28:49]: First, you ever been in...

Dave Kellogg[0:28:50]: If you've been in that meeting, what do you do?

Dave Kellogg[0:28:52]: Bring if you not.

Dave Kellogg[0:28:53]: What do you do?

Dave Kellogg[0:28:54]: You put the slide up, the slide says trade shows cost five times as much as there anything else on a call on a last touch attribution cost per lead basis.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:01]: And the board is saying, let's stop doing trade shows.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:04]: I've got my idea.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:05]: What do you say?

Dave Kellogg[0:29:06]: Yep.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:09]: Yep.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:15]: Other other tips and tricks.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:17]: There's one tip I haven't heard yet.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:18]: Keep going.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:18]: Value we're getting from shows that are not showing up here.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:21]: Got it.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:22]: Keep going we're so close but blocked there.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:24]: Say say again?

Dave Kellogg[0:29:27]: Yep.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:28]: Yeah.

Speaker_4 [0:29:29]: Yeah?

Speaker_4 [0:29:29]: Do do first touch and last session and discuss the treat are for awareness.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:34]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:34]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:34]: In the general category of not show that table by itself in the first place.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:38]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:29:38]: You you're the guy who put the naked son.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:40]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:29:41]: But right?

Dave Kellogg[0:29:42]: But, yes, you can show two tables and say, look how it's different when we do this.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:45]: The only one I missing.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:46]: You guys are all on the right stuff.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:47]: Yep?

Speaker_4 [0:29:48]: The trauma is you know, when you would be right now

Dave Kellogg[0:29:52]: versus yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:52]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:53]: So this is gonna go back to my sales partnership thing.

Dave Kellogg[0:29:58]: The real thing to do in my opinion is look at the salesperson who agree with you to do a trade show and do this.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:03]: And they better dive in and take the bullet.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:07]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:30:08]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:30:08]: So...

Dave Kellogg[0:30:08]: And this is gonna be back to my.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:09]: Do you have a real partnership with sales that moment is happening, and you know that you and Harry or Mary made that call together.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:17]: You decided to do that show.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:18]: They love that show, you're the one under fire right now, secret service, you know, if dive in front, and take this bullet.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:29]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:30:29]: So that is literally should be.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:33]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:30:34]: Because because you're going down.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:35]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:30:36]: Like, you...

Dave Kellogg[0:30:36]: You're taking hits from the board, you are partially to blame, But that's if you know if...

Dave Kellogg[0:30:41]: First, if you don't wanna ever...

Dave Kellogg[0:30:42]: If you never talk to sales about it and did it in your own, then there's...

Dave Kellogg[0:30:44]: You don't have secret service protection.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:46]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:30:46]: But if you did agree on this, you need...

Dave Kellogg[0:30:50]: It's not...

Dave Kellogg[0:30:50]: It's good that we say all the stuff you said.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:52]: It was all correct.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:52]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:30:53]: There's other value.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:53]: There's are the things.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:54]: We closed some deals.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:55]: Blah, Blah, but I think the most powerful thing is a board member.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:58]: Is Cro go.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:59]: Hey, wait a minute.

Dave Kellogg[0:30:59]: We agreed on this together, and this was a fantastic trade show for us.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:03]: We closed this many deals we've as we david ever.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:06]: Any other questions It did.

Speaker_4 [0:31:08]: Yep.

Speaker_4 [0:31:08]: Self.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:10]: Self road.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:10]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:11]: Let me see if you can finish on the second guest.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:13]: Oh, so I have one more trip for the second guest.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:14]: This is what I would say.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:16]: This is back to one of my higher memes of...

Dave Kellogg[0:31:18]: I'm just trying to get the right answer, and these questions are hard.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:20]: So my actual belief for this question is a huge part of my job is figuring out how to spend the marketing mix.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:26]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:31:27]: That is my job.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:27]: That's what you hired me to do.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:29]: And it's not easy, and we have tons and tons of data, and these programs all interact with each other in subtle ways.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:35]: When some advanced molecules tools.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:36]: This is really, really hard.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:37]: I am welcome.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:38]: Open.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:40]: To welcoming all come who wanna join the conversation.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:42]: But if you wanna join our intermediate French conversation group, you need to speak intermediate French.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:47]: Have Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:31:48]: So we're gonna have a base session.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:50]: And if you wanna come, and this is where the the dabble walk away.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:54]: But once in a while, that me see, we'll say, yeah, I've got a great quan person.

Dave Kellogg[0:31:56]: I'll send them, and and you've just created a little task force where you're getting probably a Harvard Mba to help you for free.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:01]: On figuring out this problem.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:03]: Why not?

Dave Kellogg[0:32:04]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:32:04]: If you're smart, and you wanna...

Dave Kellogg[0:32:05]: You wanna get your french skills up to intermediate level french.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:08]: You wanna understand all the tools you're using.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:10]: Understand what the data is now, you can join the conversation group.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:13]: So I'm a big believer in trying to find things to working groups, And it's one of the ways you can build our board relationships.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:18]: If there is one board member who's, you know, biting on that, just say I'd love to talk with you off offline.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:23]: Maybe you don't need a full working group, but I'd love to talk with you offline to dive in into explain what we're looking at.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:29]: Can we grab an hour of time.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:31]: Two goals accomplished one you've both.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:33]: Three.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:33]: One You've got the dead in the meeting.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:34]: It's off the meeting.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:35]: Two, you've not got a chance to meet a board member, which could be really good free your career if it goes.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:39]: And then three, you you...

Dave Kellogg[0:32:40]: They might actually have a good idea.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:41]: So now, there was another one people wanna talk about.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:45]: Who was It was the self promoter.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:47]: This is super dangerous line, and people would argue that I probably broke it as a CEO because I had a blog, but what you don't wanna hear is.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:56]: I'll do the negative case.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:57]: Old.

Dave Kellogg[0:32:58]: Where's Nick this week?

Dave Kellogg[0:32:59]: He's speaking in some marketing conference.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:01]: What's this talk on?

Dave Kellogg[0:33:03]: Like, you know, how to align with sales.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:04]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:33:05]: That all the sales he's not in line with us?

Dave Kellogg[0:33:07]: That clowns telling other people, You know, he's out of a lie.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:11]: This is why marketing is so screwed up because guys like Nick or speaking and marketing conferences.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:14]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:33:15]: Like, you can literally create your own, like dogs and torches, the villagers coming after you by being too visible as a self promoter, easier for your brand as a marketer or for a cause that you care about.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:27]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:33:27]: So in my mind, you can do it, but just be careful.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:30]: No they're watching.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:31]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:33:32]: People like you, people who don't like you.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:34]: Everyone's watching, I think a little self promotion is good.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:37]: And to be everything's a positioning problem, I tell everybody proactively.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:40]: I'm going to do this conference because I think it's gonna make me a better CMO, or I'm gonna hear somebody speak, or I'm gonna do this.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:47]: Like, I tell people in advance I'm going.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:49]: I want ask for permission for the VP of sales, but I want them to dwell and I ask for the support if it comes up.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:54]: Back to that partnership.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:55]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:33:55]: Just in.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:56]: Right to use the term.

Dave Kellogg[0:33:58]: Una in against...

Dave Kellogg[0:34:00]: Right it's politicians call.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:01]: You against the message.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:02]: I'm gonna in people against the Dave's off self promoting message and and it doesn't always hundred percent work.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:10]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:34:11]: But at least you're aware of the issue you're thinking about are other people seeing me as somebody who's spending too much time.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:18]: Like, your Cro does I I dare to say zero self promotion, And and might well attend zero conferences and groups.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:25]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:34:26]: Certainly, your CFO does that.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:28]: I some the people around the table, they just don't do that.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:31]: So and I think it's okay.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:33]: I like as Dave knows.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:34]: I like.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:35]: Communities.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:35]: I think your time is incredibly valuable here.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:37]: You just gotta make sure the other...

Dave Kellogg[0:34:38]: Your peers understand it that you're not often so we don't watch what you post on Linkedin, not all hats and part.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:43]: You know, a picture of this.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:45]: Grinding it out with day.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:48]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:34:50]: Be aware.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:53]: Be aware.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:54]: So so that's what I mean.

Dave Kellogg[0:34:55]: Because I think it's important to do, but be super mindful and don't overdo it.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:00]: Any other failure patterns we miss, Yeah.

Speaker_4 [0:35:03]: The question.

Speaker_4 [0:35:03]: I'm curious this so far.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:08]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:08]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:10]: So what one of my many jokes is that I'm one of the few consultants who...

Dave Kellogg[0:35:15]: Who spends this as much time CFO as the CMOs.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:17]: Right, because I do a lot of metrics work and financial analysis work, So actually, pretty close to both personas.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:22]: I think a CFO, in the end, I think Cro, if you have to bet your chips better on Cro because because they're your internal customer and they have a lot of power.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:31]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:35:32]: CFO...

Dave Kellogg[0:35:33]: I mean, once in a while, you could try...

Dave Kellogg[0:35:35]: We're gonna talk about changing minds in a minute, but a CFO could be helpful if you're trying to change the CEO's mind.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:40]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:35:40]: You're getting a group of people to all agree to kinda go together.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:43]: I think it's important you have a good working relationship with finance don't get me wrong.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:47]: But but I think the magic is on the Cro relationship.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:50]: No CFO is gonna save you when the cro coming after you.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:53]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:53]: Just in that scenario good...

Dave Kellogg[0:35:55]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:56]: Absolutely five.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:57]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:58]: That's CFO.

Dave Kellogg[0:35:59]: That's a good use case.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:00]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:01]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:01]: Personally, I I I have other ways.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:04]: But, yes, the CFO would be very helpful in that case.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:06]: I agree.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:07]: There there's some other things we could do with industry benchmarks, what other people close, win loss analysis.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:12]: Right, you know, there's a lot of things we can do to say, do we really need five acts.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:16]: And what's happening to all those deals, but certainly have the CFO, you know according to industry benchmarks that's too high and Google...

Dave Kellogg[0:36:21]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:21]: That that it it doesn't hurt.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:23]: It doesn't hurt.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:23]: Alright.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:24]: So the three jobs of the CFO.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:26]: So we talked about failure patterns, the hope was that you see one or two of them in you and you can think of some corrective action, and you can, you know, not be that situation.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:35]: The next thing we're talking about is the three jobs of the CMO.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:38]: Then we're gonna talk about the ten principles, which is another kind of laundry list.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:41]: We'll go through it fast.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:43]: Hopefully, you'll get some ideas from it.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:44]: And then we'll talk about marketing marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:45]: One day, I was probably...

Dave Kellogg[0:36:48]: Company was probably seven or eight hundred million dollars at the time.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:51]: My boss couldn't in my office and he goes was Dave.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:53]: What's your job?

Dave Kellogg[0:36:54]: I'm mike, lowe's Was like, trick question because obviously CMO, you know, my job to run marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:36:59]: You know, when I missing something?

Dave Kellogg[0:37:00]: And his answer was you're wrong.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:01]: You you actually have two jobs.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:03]: What one is to run marketing and wants to help me run the company.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:06]: And you're spending a hundred hundred and twenty percent of your time on marketing, and I need some time.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:11]: So you need to figure out how to make time to do your other job.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:15]: And that was a super powerful message for me to hear.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:18]: Because, it was kinda cool.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:19]: Like, oh, my boss actually wants me involved in helping run the company.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:23]: I am interested in in running the whole company.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:26]: Because as we'll see from my definition of marketing, but this is cool, but I need to make time for this, and how am I gonna do that.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:33]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:37:34]: And a lot of that comes down to the team you have working for you, Mean, the the the easiest way to make time is to have really good people working for you, and then you're gonna end up at the age old loyalty trade off.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:45]: This person helped me build the team.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:47]: They're great, but could I get somebody better who would give me that twenty percent back.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:52]: And and you have to look at it through that self lens.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:55]: The the quick tactic I have to solve that.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:57]: It's just calibration as the Hr buzz word, but go meet song.

Dave Kellogg[0:37:59]: You're not interviewing.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:00]: You haven't made a job rec, but I just wanna go have coffee, use this network to say, I wanna go meet five VPs of Ko com, not directors of Ko com, and I wanna imagine if I had a VP level Corp person would my life change.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:12]: And if I think it would, maybe I'll go get one if I think It won't I won't.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:16]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:38:16]: That's the easiest action you can take.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:18]: Does definitely be dramatic.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:19]: You can just go do some calibration.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:21]: So my boss convinced me, I had two jobs.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:23]: Run marketing and and then help my boss.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:26]: And then I will add the third job, which Think absolutely critical which is market marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:29]: And I think this is the one that all of us forget to do We're too busy to do, And we're either too modest to do it or we're...

Dave Kellogg[0:38:36]: We do it wrong.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:37]: We we do it in two blatant into way.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:40]: And we're gonna talk about that one after as well.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:43]: But my mind, if one message you leave with, you thought you had one job, you have three.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:47]: You gotta run marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:48]: You gotta help your boss do their job.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:49]: And you got a market marketing, And that's important as the other two.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:52]: Because if you don't do it, Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:38:53]: The hate to be dramatic, they come for you.

Dave Kellogg[0:38:55]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:38:56]: And they will come for you if you forget to market marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:00]: So this is one that people talked about in the failure reasons as well don't wanna go too long on this because it's very, very hard to do, but just...

Dave Kellogg[0:39:10]: I'm gonna argue once a year, you get a chance to sign up or not sign up.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:13]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:39:14]: Daniel annual planning process, and you're gonna say, here's what we need from you.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:17]: Here's the money you get.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:19]: Do you sign up.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:19]: And salespeople people take that moment very seriously by the way, because they're signing up for quote quota and they will be fired and compliance and everything.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:25]: Marking people in my opinion take it somewhat less seriously.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:27]: The and I think the writing answer to that is to really say to think like a salesperson.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:33]: I am signing up for this.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:35]: I'm am signing up for the next year.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:36]: And this is the logic of salesperson applies.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:39]: If I sign up for a number, I can't make, you're gonna fire me anyway.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:43]: So I may as well just quit now.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:45]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:39:46]: That...

Dave Kellogg[0:39:47]: That's that's how to think about it.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:48]: Like, I will not be here at the end of that year if we sign up for that plan.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:52]: So it's probably better for me to quit now than it is to go through three quarters of hell and have you fire me.

Dave Kellogg[0:39:57]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:39:58]: So They they think about it in in a very dramatic way and I'm not I'm not saying you should do Brink ship all the time.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:03]: But but I am saying you need to think about it, more like they do to say, I'm I signing up for this plan can be done.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:09]: And if it can't be done, you have other resources than could it.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:11]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:40:12]: One is to say, I need more resources.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:14]: Or we need to lower expectations or I could do things one and two, but not thing three.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:18]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:40:19]: You have other recourse.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:20]: This matters.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:21]: To me, once a year and it matters when you change jobs.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:24]: Particularly if you're going to a Pe piggyback company, because in Pe, budgets rarely change and they rarely get better.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:31]: When they do, it's not Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:40:33]: It it's usually down.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:34]: So if somebody running a Pe company says, come join our company, don't worry, we'll get you the resources we need downstream No.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:41]: No.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:42]: Let's stop out of resources now.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:43]: Like, before I join, I need to know what I'm gonna have.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:46]: In Vc, it's a little bit more like a road trip.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:48]: Do you have enough gas to, you know, enough gas to get to the next fuel stock.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:51]: And and let's go into that.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:53]: Pe.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:54]: It's all pretty determined.

Dave Kellogg[0:40:55]: So to me the advice is, get good at...

Dave Kellogg[0:41:00]: And this is a very hard skill.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:01]: Get good at trying to figure out if you've given what you need.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:03]: And if you don't think you have it go ask for more.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:05]: And once again, who's your partner in crime if you don't think you have enough, the Cro.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:09]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:41:11]: Because I, here's my my line about Cro, They're better at negotiating than you are?

Dave Kellogg[0:41:15]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:41:15]: That's why their salespeople people and they have way more leverage than you do?

Dave Kellogg[0:41:19]: So who do you think is gonna win an argument with the CEO and CFO.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:22]: You or the Cro.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:24]: Or or better yet, you and the Cro strapped together as one virtual human.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:28]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:41:29]: So this is what I mean by partnership.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:31]: Questions or thoughts on that?

Dave Kellogg[0:41:33]: Because a lot of you talked about we don't have the resources to get the job done.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:36]: That begins here.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:37]: Alright?

Dave Kellogg[0:41:38]: Every year, you get a chance to change that what's asked of you what you're being given.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:42]: And these things come top down.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:43]: They're not declared by God.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:44]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:41:45]: They're they're benchmarks.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:45]: The board goes, we'd like Marketing be ten percent sales next year.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:48]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:41:48]: And you have to decide if you could sign up for that.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:50]: Alright?

Dave Kellogg[0:41:51]: So this is a quota of marketing that a

Speaker_4 [0:41:55]: lot of people talk about.

Speaker_4 [0:41:55]: I love this Quote

Dave Kellogg[0:41:56]: from Peter Trucker.

Dave Kellogg[0:41:57]: He says marketing is the whole business scene for the point of view of the customer.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:00]: And I think the if you could embrace this as a CMO.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:03]: I think it's great.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:05]: The the other quote I sometimes uses from Christmas Carol.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:07]: Mankind was my business.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:09]: If you remember Jacob Marley.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:11]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:42:11]: The whole thing was my business.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:13]: It wasn't just my little small part of it.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:15]: In the interestingly enough, the full quote actually goes in a very different direction than I thought it would...

Dave Kellogg[0:42:20]: It it basically says, therefore concern responsibility for marketing must perm all areas of the enterprise.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:25]: So Trucker is saying everybody should be in your shit, basically.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:28]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:42:29]: And the converse of this, what I'm say or as David Packard founder of Hp said, marketing is too important to be left of the marketing department.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:36]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:42:37]: What one of my favorite quotes.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:38]: And I it actually quite a bit of truth to that.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:40]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:42:41]: As well.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:41]: I also take the converse, which is everything is too important to be ignored by marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:45]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:42:46]: If if if marketing is the whole business seen for the point of view of the customer, then I get to weigh in.

Dave Kellogg[0:42:51]: So I think it's a very important philosophy to have, it'll cause you to develop a broader understanding of the business, and we have to learn how to be respectful when on other people's launch.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:01]: If we think the actual problem in our sales funnel is close rates because our sales people are hand headed with customers or they're bad customers.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:07]: We need to say that in respectful way.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:10]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:43:10]: We can't just say our Salesforce or clowns.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:12]: That's why we lose too many deals.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:13]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:43:13]: You can say that.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:14]: It it it won't go down well So we need to bring data to that particular party to say that.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:20]: But to me, if you wanna be, we're still the very high level of the the fundamental job of the CMO.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:25]: It's these things.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:26]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:43:26]: And this is about thing too.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:28]: Run marketing, we'll talk more about the next section.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:29]: This is thing too.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:31]: Help your boss on the company.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:32]: This is how you do it, and then think three is market marketing, which gets a whole section.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:36]: Alright?

Dave Kellogg[0:43:37]: So here's the meat of the deck.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:39]: There's a lot on here.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:41]: My advice is to look for one or two things you think you could use.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:45]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:43:45]: Here are the Ted rules I think Bring data to the party.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:48]: We just talked about that.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:48]: Number two, leverage Ai.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:50]: That's the whole purpose of this conference, I think is for you to talk about that, So I'm not gonna talk about it because the right people talk to you over you guys.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:55]: Start with the audience.

Dave Kellogg[0:43:57]: This is a very specific one, but all presentations must start with the audience.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:00]: The road to hell begins in the slide sort.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:03]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:44:04]: If you say I've got a presentation to make, and you open another presentation, put it in slide sort view and start pluck slides.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:10]: You're blazing down the path.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:13]: And I'll explain what I mean by that in a minute.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:15]: But but you're prioritizing reuse of our audience, and that's a big mistake.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:19]: Start with audience.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:20]: Who am I talking to do one other they wanna here?

Dave Kellogg[0:44:21]: Be an expert, build a doctor patient relationship with sales.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:24]: This critical.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:25]: Develop a first ring relationship with the Cro.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:28]: That's my ultimate characterization of the relationship you want.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:31]: Lead the horse to water.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:32]: Worry about the whole funnel, no one to be the just passionate analyst and make Atf q answer the booking question part of your marketing culture.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:43]: One of the top two...

Dave Kellogg[0:44:44]: Of my blog that I started writing two thousand five, one of the top two posts is called to answer the fuck question.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:50]: And it's incredibly important for dealing with senior executives because they want me to particularly board members.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:55]: If a board member asks you a question, answer it.

Dave Kellogg[0:44:58]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:44:58]: Don't tell a story.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:00]: And we love to tell stories.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:02]: We're marketing people.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:03]: So I can't just tell you a simple answer.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:06]: I gotta tell you a story.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:07]: Hey, the more senior go organization the more they they they hate that.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:11]: Well, depends.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:15]: You know, Dave, depends on a lot of things.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:17]: You you're about churn from new customers, churn from existing customers.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:20]: Each turn up by the last three year churn, two year churn.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:22]: You could do a cohort analysis.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:23]: We could do a multi year Arr.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:24]: We could do a single year Arr.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:26]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:45:26]: And the the example I put the aside.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:29]: So we...

Dave Kellogg[0:45:29]: Develop...

Dave Kellogg[0:45:31]: So I like code words a lot, because I like to be able to just break somebody up.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:36]: So the code where we had because this was how much does a bus cost.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:39]: So whatever somebody...

Dave Kellogg[0:45:41]: Because it actually happened one day We're we're out an analyst tour we're like hey, randy.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:44]: This is a bus cost.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:45]: We take the bus of the train us the bus boss.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:46]: He's like, well, you know, boston is a flying transportation system was established, you know, billionaire.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:50]: And he's just going suck it on and on.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:52]: Aaron Grande.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:53]: Comes bus cost.

Dave Kellogg[0:45:54]: And that became code in the department for answer the question.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:00]: Just how much does the what's cost.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:01]: And when you can create your own code word, it is a friendly way.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:06]: Much friend than saying Atf q.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:08]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:46:08]: A much friend way of saying You're not answering the question.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:12]: What's churn?

Dave Kellogg[0:46:13]: Twelve percent last quarter measured on a G basis.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:16]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:46:16]: My tech is always leave a thread.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:18]: Oh, are there other bases, Dave.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:20]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:20]: There are.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:21]: You could measure it this way we could do a quarter analysis for the two year ago cohort is much higher.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:25]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:46:26]: So the trick Atf q is answer it and leave a threat.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:30]: Yep.

Speaker_5 [0:46:31]: How does that match your eclipse sunglasses glasses?

Dave Kellogg[0:46:34]: The eclipse sunglasses and Atf q.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:36]: So, I guess the difference is...

Dave Kellogg[0:46:39]: If I'm presenting, I'm choosing what's on my slides.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:42]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:46:43]: And and if I'm gonna show you a slide that can burn your retina without the sunglasses that that's my fault.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:48]: Board numbers want demand, have the right to, interrogating you interrogating.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:55]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:46:56]: That...

Dave Kellogg[0:46:56]: They see this part of their job.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:57]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:46:57]: Like, I'm governance.

Dave Kellogg[0:46:58]: I I need to make sure you're confident, and I'm gonna do that by asking you a series of questions.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:02]: No note emphasis in the word series.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:05]: So the other reasons incredibly you're irritating to me personally when you don't answer my question is I have five more lined up.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:10]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:47:11]: And and and you're burning all the time on some story I don't care about.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:14]: And you you don't know which direction I'm going.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:17]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:47:17]: But trust me, I have a line of questioning, It's a board meeting We don't have time.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:21]: I'm asking what was churn.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:23]: Tell me twelve percent.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:24]: Tell me fifteen percent.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:25]: And by the way, I can ask you other question.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:27]: Do you think that's high?

Dave Kellogg[0:47:28]: Is that normal?

Dave Kellogg[0:47:29]: How do you feel about that?

Dave Kellogg[0:47:30]: What's driving that?

Dave Kellogg[0:47:31]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:47:32]: You don't have to say all that without me asking?

Dave Kellogg[0:47:34]: Because maybe I'm in a totally different direction knee.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:37]: So I think the two are not incompatible.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:39]: But, yeah, the you you put it this way.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:42]: If the board member burns their eyes during an interrogation, I guess they did it for himself, Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:47:48]: But if you put a slide up, you did it to them.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:50]: Alright.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:51]: So we're gonna go through some of these bring data.

Dave Kellogg[0:47:53]: The issue I have with these to be frank because everyone could be a half hour talk, so I really need to to just kinda throw stuff out there and see what resonates with you.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:01]: I hear this all the time.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:02]: No nobody has heard of us.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:03]: We're the best kept secret.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:04]: Didn't anyone ever hear that?

Dave Kellogg[0:48:05]: Right.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:06]: Trust me fucking crazy.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:07]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:48:08]: Every time I hear some salesperson say that.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:10]: We're the best kept secret if we could just get more at bats.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:12]: Right here you.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:13]: Under the bus again, right?

Dave Kellogg[0:48:14]: Whose fault is that?

Dave Kellogg[0:48:15]: That nobody has heard of us and then our Salesforce is perfect, and boy they can close every deal if we just put it in front of more people.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:22]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:48:22]: So so we all have a certain emotional reaction to that when we hear it.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:25]: But what are we supposed to do about that?

Dave Kellogg[0:48:27]: The answer is bring data to the party?

Dave Kellogg[0:48:29]: If this is back to the general need of dis dispatch analysts.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:32]: I wonder if that's true.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:34]: That's my first answer.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:36]: Is that why we're not selling.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:37]: Gosh.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:38]: Maybe it is.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:39]: Joe seems to think so.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:40]: Now, note that what Joe said was a hypothesis or an assertion was certainly not a fact.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:44]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:48:45]: And and note that Joe also has skin in the game.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:47]: Joe runs the Salesforce.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:49]: And Joe wants to think they're wonderful.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:51]: So I'm not gonna get excited about this.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:53]: This is just part of me doing my job.

Dave Kellogg[0:48:55]: I'm gonna hear stuff like this, and I am now genuinely curious about what would help us sell more is awareness the problem.

Dave Kellogg[0:49:03]: And I like market research.

Dave Kellogg[0:49:05]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:49:05]: But my basic belief is that most of you probably spend too much time naval gazing, right?

Dave Kellogg[0:49:11]: Looking in your own systems looking at all the people you found, and we're not talking to the people who never found us or never heard of us or never talk to us.

Dave Kellogg[0:49:18]: You have to do that through market research.

Dave Kellogg[0:49:20]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:49:21]: And God bless you if you're doing both already fantastic, but there's a strong availability bias us to wanna answer every question in the Crm.

Dave Kellogg[0:49:27]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:49:28]: Because the data's is there.

Dave Kellogg[0:49:28]: We can go look at it.

Dave Kellogg[0:49:29]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:49:30]: The problem is it's not telling of us about the people we never found what they think.

Dave Kellogg[0:49:34]: So and if the assertion is, people haven't heard of us well I...

Dave Kellogg[0:49:37]: I don't I know I can't go to the Crm.

Dave Kellogg[0:49:39]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:49:39]: Because who's in the Crm, definition be heard of us.

Dave Kellogg[0:49:42]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:49:43]: So I need to do market research.

Dave Kellogg[0:49:45]: So What data could you bring?

Dave Kellogg[0:49:47]: Certainly Crm reporting.

Dave Kellogg[0:49:48]: Certainly benchmark win race certainly lead surveys.

Dave Kellogg[0:49:51]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:49:51]: Going back to leads saying did you buy?

Dave Kellogg[0:49:53]: Did you who did you evaluate in the end, what did you do?

Dave Kellogg[0:49:56]: I'm...

Dave Kellogg[0:49:56]: What am Doing?

Dave Kellogg[0:49:57]: I'm cross checking on sales.

Dave Kellogg[0:49:58]: Because Sales said there was no opportunity there.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:00]: It got disqualified.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:01]: It got thrown back into a nurture.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:02]: I wanna know what happened to it.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:04]: Why?

Dave Kellogg[0:50:04]: Am I trying to fuck sales?

Dave Kellogg[0:50:05]: No.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:06]: I'm trying to sell more software.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:07]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:50:08]: I'm just trying to help the company sell more And and if you come at it with the wrong attitude of, like, I'm fighting with sales and sales is bad.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:15]: Nothing good is gonna happen.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:16]: If you come at it with the good attitude is I just wanna sell more software I have, how do you use some marketing to go spend, should it go spend it an awareness By the way, the reason I feel so passionate about this is I actually worked at the company wants.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:26]: Where this happened where we decided it was a long time ago.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:30]: We decided that nobody had heard of us.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:31]: So we're bring in shiny new marketing people, shiny new agency millions of dollar campaign to four a million dollar company.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:37]: So pretty big.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:38]: Multimillion million dollar campaign ran Wall Street Journal ads, New York Times ads, big double spreads, incredible amount of money for, like, eight weeks, ran out of money and cancel all the spreads.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:49]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:50:50]: We would been far better off just having a little box ad in the corner of computer world, Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:50:54]: For every episode for every issue for a year, But instead we'd glue it all on this giant thing.

Dave Kellogg[0:50:58]: And and this was the fun part of the old days has leads used to be in piles.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:01]: So so so you could see it.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:03]: You can literally walk around the Sdr str and see all the piles.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:05]: And and the lead piles went from here to there.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:07]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:51:08]: It's like, okay, we just doubled the height of the piles, but we don't enough people to work through the piles anyway, there shouldn't be piles.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:13]: And, like, this this just...

Dave Kellogg[0:51:14]: Somebody's not looking at this through a systems view.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:17]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:51:17]: Because if you through the system view, you'd say where's the tank in the system.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:20]: And maybe we should just spend a fraction of that money at Morris to work the leads we had, not go bury the pile.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:25]: So I tell the story because so visceral because I'm literally walking around going, this is insanity because these piles are now deep and we're spending money on an ad pay and this not drip but on off.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:34]: So I get very excited about this because what happens if you get it wrong.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:38]: What happens we believe the sales guy.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:40]: And say, yeah, nobody's heard of us do a massive awareness campaigns, billboards, bust shelters, advertisements.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:44]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:51:45]: We could do all that.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:46]: I can do that.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:46]: I know how to do that.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:48]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:51:48]: Is it the right thing to do.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:50]: That's the question.

Dave Kellogg[0:51:51]: So thoughts on this one?

Speaker_4 [0:51:53]: I would add two things.

Speaker_4 [0:51:54]: One is as by CEO talking someone as a CMO, less work.

Speaker_4 [0:51:58]: The board see so many different companies all the time.

Speaker_4 [0:52:03]: If you choose bar up all your data, it will overwhelm them on about two questions.

Speaker_4 [0:52:07]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:08]: Yeah.

Speaker_4 [0:52:08]: So less is more on data.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:10]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:10]: All

Speaker_4 [0:52:10]: your story is showed trending.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:12]: Yeah.

Speaker_4 [0:52:12]: And tell them what's going to happen to the future remind them that you told them that, the previous board meeting and to make your proof points the second thing I would say to make sure the pipeline data is in your section at the sales section.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:24]: K.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:24]: I think I agree on both.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:25]: I think we're at slightly different points though because what I'm agree.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:28]: What I'm trying to say is for the...

Dave Kellogg[0:52:31]: Need Every time you hear somebody say something that sounds like a fact write it down.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:34]: Because I'm on a different page.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:35]: Unlike the question do your.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:37]: Can to me, your advice apply really well to templates.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:40]: And, like, what's my standard deck and should be consistent saying here's Told you last time?

Dave Kellogg[0:52:43]: Hey, man.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:44]: Got it all.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:45]: I'm saying every time somebody says something, and they make it sound like a fact and you know what's not write it down.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:50]: And then in the meeting, say, you know, Joe said, no one heard of us, Joe said we win more than average deals of the space.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:56]: Joe said we never lose to so and so.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:58]: Those are three assertion.

Dave Kellogg[0:52:58]: I'd like to go get data around those assertion because if they're true, we're gonna do something different than if they're false.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:06]: And maybe one and two is two or two or three or two.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:08]: But that's where...

Dave Kellogg[0:53:09]: So this is a bring data to...

Dave Kellogg[0:53:10]: It's actually a two part exercise one.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:12]: Find fake facts.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:14]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:53:15]: Which Cro love to recite.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:17]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:53:19]: So the stuff spewing out of their mouth that that's opinion.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:21]: That's an assertion.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:22]: Like, oh, finally.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:23]: There there's a data point.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:24]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:53:24]: Write them down, figure out if for making decisions based on them and then bring data to that party.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:29]: So there's a little more specific.

Dave Gerhardt [0:53:32]: I used to order this in no joe once underneath come to my desk and say.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:48]: Never question.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:49]: Always a Again, it's endemic.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:51]: It's what we do.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:51]: It's gonna happen.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:52]: So we can let travis crazy or can be like, okay.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:55]: Salesperson being a salesperson.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:56]: Now now let's try.

Dave Kellogg[0:53:57]: Look at this analytical and what do they saying?

Dave Kellogg[0:53:59]: Is the website down.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:00]: Like let's go check what the monitoring app.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:02]: Yep.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:02]: What is the CEO and founder happen to?

Dave Kellogg[0:54:11]: Lead the sales team.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:14]: Oh, yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:14]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:15]: Okay.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:16]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:17]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:17]: Good question.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:17]: Give me a second on this one.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:20]: There there's always an answer.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:21]: Don't take a job.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:23]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:23]: I love then.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:30]: So I think the answer is...

Dave Kellogg[0:54:34]: I like hat theory.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:35]: I don't know what they called these days, but you try and get the CEO to switch hats.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:38]: And just say, I want you think I'd founder.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:40]: I know you also run sales, take that hot second.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:43]: You're also a founder.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:43]: You own twenty five percent of this company.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:45]: I'm trying to get the right answer for how we sell more software again.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:48]: If they always perceive you you're not as defending marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:50]: If if you're not the defender of marketing, but you are instead, a person with marketing skills, Right, who wants to help us sell more software.

Dave Kellogg[0:54:58]: That's the position you wanna have...

Dave Kellogg[0:55:00]: I just wanna sell more software.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:01]: I know how to buy billboards.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:02]: I can do it.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:02]: I can make great billboards.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:04]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:55:04]: I can run a great targeted campaign.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:06]: I can do a great E campaign.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:07]: I have a whole kit bag full of stuff I could do for you.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:09]: And and I'm equally comfortable using any of it.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:13]: Is that's all the issues like, oh, you're an Person.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:15]: You wanna do Ab or you're a comps person.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:17]: You wanna do comps.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:18]: Or your a social person.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:19]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:55:19]: So you wanna...

Dave Kellogg[0:55:20]: You know.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:20]: I'm an everything person.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:21]: I'm a general practitioner.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:22]: I have a bag full of medicine, and I'm trying to figure out what we need.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:28]: So I need you.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:29]: I know you also run sales.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:30]: So just...

Dave Kellogg[0:55:32]: I want you to take that hat off a minute and when you put your CEO hat on.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:34]: And just try and do that.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:36]: I think it's a...

Dave Kellogg[0:55:36]: It's the only way I know to try and get somebody to switch their print reference and then bring data.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:42]: And on that specific question, like, I like lost analysis.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:45]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:55:45]: Because I think the most unreliable form of loss analysis is from sales.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:48]: Frankly.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:49]: Ask a salesperson why they lose.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:51]: So you gotta get third party loss analysis with a third party firm interviewing people.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:56]: And then you bring it in in a non confrontational way.

Dave Kellogg[0:55:59]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:55:59]: Be rule nine.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:00]: Dispatcher adams, hey, I hired lost partners.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:02]: They read a ring loss study, here's what it's saying.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:04]: And you you put that data on the table.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:06]: Can it's not accused.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:08]: It's just a fact.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:09]: This is what it says.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:10]: You can get bad, but it's you're...

Dave Kellogg[0:56:11]: Like, yelling at the weather.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:12]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:56:13]: It doesn't do anything.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:13]: Let let's talk about whether we think this is true what we wanna do about it.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:17]: Alright.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:17]: Rule three I talked on some of these already.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:19]: Always start with the audience.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:20]: I said this one so I'm gonna do it fast.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:22]: Number one reason CMOs blow up and board meetings to me is they took the slides from the Qb and put them up with the board.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:29]: They say, this is like, I wanna be defensive but.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:32]: They're like, well, I know I made these slides for Qb.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:33]: But gonna be showing to you anyways, so there might be too much detail.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:36]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:56:37]: You're dead before you've even started.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:38]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:56:39]: So...

Dave Kellogg[0:56:40]: Because now, who are you?

Dave Kellogg[0:56:41]: That tasmania and devil and all I'll likelihood.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:42]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:56:43]: Because you're bringing Qb slides to a board meeting.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:45]: So what you gotta do.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:48]: And I think it's...

Dave Kellogg[0:56:48]: I know this is a product marker.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:50]: Hey.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:51]: We just got off the analyst tour.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:52]: We're doing a product launch at just brief twenty analyst influencers about something, and now I'm doing a sales training.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:57]: Just reuse the slides.

Dave Kellogg[0:56:58]: Oh, building the customer deck.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:00]: Just reuse the slides.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:01]: Look at me on the reuse God.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:04]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:57:04]: Like, I'm so awesome because I'm reusing all these slides and then sales barf all over the slides, and then you listen to what they're saying, and if you're honest with yourself, you're like, you're right.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:16]: I didn't go those slides for.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:17]: Sales or customers I built them for analysts.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:20]: And why in the world we ever put a positioning chart up in front of a customer that talks about our competitors just to pick a dramatic example.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:27]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:57:27]: You might put that in front of an analyst, only a fool and put that in front of a customer.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:31]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:57:32]: So I know there's a lot of pressure on us to do more a flash, reuse, go fast.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:36]: Don't.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:37]: I start in the outline.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:38]: I start with a blank slate, and maybe I make a note slide like, this presentation.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:42]: Who's in the audience.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:43]: What do I think they wanna talk about?

Dave Kellogg[0:57:45]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:57:45]: And and you start there.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:46]: And if you have material use it by all means.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:48]: But Lord help you don't open another deck and start there and start pluck slides.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:52]: You will get the wrong answer every time.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:54]: So...

Dave Kellogg[0:57:55]: And That's true in marketing, It's it is true in board meetings.

Dave Kellogg[0:57:57]: And my my He liquor does this all the time.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:00]: Maybe the guy who just the great person to do choke of the board meetings he's he's choking because he's showing Qb our slide.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:05]: No.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:07]: No.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:07]: I just coined to phrase for this deck.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:11]: I I made tele after, but But he he certainly knows he he choke that part we've been over.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:17]: This one, it it...

Dave Kellogg[0:58:19]: Look, no one ever...

Dave Kellogg[0:58:20]: If you imp Dentist, you get arrested.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:22]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:58:22]: And there's actually a true story that somebody impersonating Dentist for two years.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:25]: It's actually amazing if you think about it.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:27]: To go in and pull people's teeth and drill.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:30]: But no one ever gets arrested for person in and marketer.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:32]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:58:33]: There are a lot of d or dabble, whatever you wanna call them in marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:38]: I trust that you all are marketing professionals.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:40]: I want you to position yourself such and be seen as such.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:42]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:58:43]: Miracle thirty fourth Street, my favorite marketing movie, where the Santa Claus says, I have great respect for psychiatry and great contempt for meddling amateur who practice it.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:52]: You remember you're talking to Doctor Sawyer, their eyebrow guy.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:54]: That's the way I feel about Marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:56]: I have great respect for marketers.

Dave Kellogg[0:58:57]: And great contempt for metal amateur who practice it.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:01]: So we should make ourselves professional.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:02]: We should learn a lot.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:03]: We should suddenly remind people that we are marketing professionals that we study this.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:07]: We learn about it.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:08]: We look at other examples.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:09]: So this I won't put down for me.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:12]: This is very important because I transitioned from the technical side of the house.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:15]: So I had years where people would call me for performance student questions.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:18]: Literally.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:19]: I was director of product marketing.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:20]: I was, I trying to shoot a server here to go.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:22]: And it's like...

Dave Kellogg[0:59:23]: So I had to really position myself as a marker.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:25]: But I think it applies to all of us to position ourselves as professionals.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:28]: This is a key slide.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:31]: If you went to the doctor and walked in and said I need five hundred milligrams of a max ceiling.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:35]: What would they say?

Dave Kellogg[0:59:36]: Hey, Doc.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:37]: Hook me up with five hundred grams of mo alone.

Speaker_4 [0:59:41]: What?

Speaker_4 [0:59:41]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:42]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:42]: What what do you doing here?

Dave Kellogg[0:59:43]: Like, what?

Dave Kellogg[0:59:44]: Backup up, slow down, Let's talk about what symptoms you're experiencing.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:49]: But when sales shows up and says, we need a Vip booth at the Yankee game, What do we say?

Dave Kellogg[0:59:55]: Do you want two fifty milligrams or five hundred.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:57]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[0:59:57]: That...

Dave Kellogg[0:59:58]: That's what we say.

Dave Kellogg[0:59:58]: We we don't say wait a minute back up.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:00]: What are the symptoms here?

Dave Kellogg[1:00:02]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:00:03]: And I'm a big believer in saying yes to sales when we can.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:06]: Like, every no counts so say yes to the easy ones, even though I believe in focus if it's an Easy yes, just do with just some money.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:12]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:00:12]: Like, I'm saving my nose.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:14]: Because because I don't have that many of them.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:17]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:00:18]: So I I generally advise marketers to say yes.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:20]: The easy thing, but depends on what's this booth cost.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:22]: It may not be an easy yes.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:23]: It depends on your budget.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:24]: So to me, it's always diagnosed and prescribe because I'm a big believer that market exists to make sales easier.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:31]: People sometimes misunderstand that is, like, ser vial to No.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:34]: No.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:35]: Doctors exist to make you healthy and they're not sure while.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:38]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:00:38]: That they're they're equal, and and they're they're working with you to solve a problem.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:41]: I'm gonna skip the.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:43]: First spring relationship, the sound idea is really simple.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:47]: If you know the Water gate story, there's two journalists who broke it.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:49]: Wood bird and Bernstein, and the funniest part of the story to me is they're editor called them Woods.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:54]: That was the name.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:55]: And in the movie, he'd be like?

Dave Kellogg[1:00:56]: Get in here.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:58]: And he'd yell.

Dave Kellogg[1:00:59]: And that's who I want you to be with your Cro.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:02]: I want you to be Woods.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:03]: That that is the Apex of this relationship that we're talking about.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:07]: And Woods can go convince the CEO of things that you will not be able to on your own.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:11]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:01:12]: Woods is super powerful.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:14]: So it's not alignment with sales.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:16]: I mean, if your mis lima sales, you're probably not gonna last very long.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:19]: But alignment not enough to me, the thing to shoot for is this level of partnership.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:24]: But I two two metrics one is are you Woods steam, three metrics one is how many times do you speak for day, and this is the ultimate to do you answer each other's calls to the first ring.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:32]: Because your spouse partner, you probably answering in the first ring.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:35]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:01:35]: Or you have a code for call me back again if it's urgent.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:37]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:01:38]: You you literally have some protocol.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:39]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:01:40]: I want you to have that Of sales.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:41]: And that's how you know you're there.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:43]: If you're not there, then you have work to do.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:45]: This...

Dave Kellogg[1:01:46]: There's a whole booklet written about this, and I would...

Dave Kellogg[1:01:49]: Suggest you read it.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:50]: Here's the problem with us as marketers.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:52]: We'd love messaging communications.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:54]: We'd love air bombing.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:54]: We'd love proper began.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:56]: That's not actually what changes people mind.

Dave Kellogg[1:01:58]: What changes people's mind, look over time it can over time it works.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:04]: But and I'm not talking about this as a recipe for marketing.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:07]: I'm talking about this as a recipe for changing your c suite.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:09]: The people around the table.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:11]: And if you wanna know how to actually change people's minds, let's not go to red repetitions and mass communicators?

Dave Kellogg[1:02:17]: Let's go to canvas search.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:19]: People who knock on doors and say, how do you feel about same sex marriage.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:22]: Why do you have that view and could I change your mind?

Dave Kellogg[1:02:25]: You all talk about a hard job.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:27]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:02:29]: That's a hard job.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:30]: Knocking on doors one at a time taking the most divisive political issues of the day and having conversations with people about how changing him.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:38]: That's what this book is about.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:39]: This book is about how canvas change people's mind.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:43]: And the thing I think I did worst as a CMO.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:46]: I was really good at bringing data and argument because I'm a data and argument kinda guy.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:50]: I'm and this is another reason to partner with the Cps sales, I'm not a high touch one on one long conversation seller.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:57]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:02:58]: And that's what this is arguing.

Dave Kellogg[1:02:59]: You gotta sit out and understand your view viewpoint and why that I just wanna make the ultimate leaflet on it.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:04]: Here's why you should have position excellent issue why.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:06]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:03:06]: Now make them great leaflet on that?

Dave Kellogg[1:03:08]: We'll put leaflets in all the boxes?

Dave Kellogg[1:03:09]: That's me.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:10]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:03:11]: But what actually change that might work over time to change some lines?

Dave Kellogg[1:03:13]: But but if you got a big issue.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:15]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:03:16]: Like, how much does the marketing budget next year?

Dave Kellogg[1:03:18]: Or do we open Germany or France or do we launch this product or not?

Dave Kellogg[1:03:21]: And you gotta change people's minds.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:23]: This is the book for us.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:24]: All the tools we have for Cha minds do not apply.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:28]: There's a whole another way to change minds, and we gotta use these around the C suite.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:32]: So that that's the the inside here.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:34]: Read the book It's a great read, whole funnel we talked about already in the context of marketing.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:38]: Dis passionate and analyst, Dave Touched on it So did I.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:41]: My fair example of this is a cody sale time of business objects, which is, well, I don't have a quote to slide.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:48]: But the quote was Congratulations.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:51]: We've made plan in France, but we lost market share.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:55]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:03:57]: So go team, you made your plan congratulations.

Dave Kellogg[1:03:59]: Two and two percent.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:00]: But point of fact, here's my relative market share chart.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:02]: We lost share.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:03]: In what's going on.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:04]: This is drama ties for me because our italians, were remaining actually, they would sign up for super high growth plans and miss them.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:10]: So they sign up to do a hundred percent growth and hit eighty five and they're always in trouble.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:13]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:04:13]: And then the French was on up for, like, twenty five percent growth.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:16]: And grow twenty six and like, yay.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:17]: Go France.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:18]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:04:19]: And and you just go like, this is who's screwed up.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:21]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:04:22]: So how am I gonna make aware people aware of this issue that effectively were rewarded negotiation not performance Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:04:29]: The friends are just better plan negotiators than the Italians.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:32]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:04:33]: But the fact of better is there's...

Dave Kellogg[1:04:34]: There is an absolute truth called market share.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:36]: I can measure it in those two countries, and we are making plan at losing share.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:39]: So so go off, I'm not trying to take money out of anybody's wallets.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:43]: But maybe we have the wrong plan.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:44]: Maybe we should plan to gain share.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:46]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:04:47]: That's dis passion and analyst.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:48]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:04:49]: I don't...

Dave Kellogg[1:04:50]: The quota I have is...

Dave Kellogg[1:04:51]: I don't make the news.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:52]: I'm just telling you about it.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:53]: We lost share in France, and and then to get the issue on the table, and not assigning causes.

Dave Kellogg[1:04:58]: Like, here's one I did a very politically charged consulting game.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:01]: We start...

Dave Kellogg[1:05:02]: We have a tendency to missed plan when we start the core less than two point two x pipeline coverage.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:05]: That's a fact.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:07]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:05:08]: The data said that.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:09]: Eight times out

Speaker_4 [1:05:09]: of ten, nine times out of

Dave Kellogg[1:05:10]: ten, we missed plan.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:11]: Whose fault is that Like a pipeline coverage?

Dave Kellogg[1:05:13]: I never said.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:14]: Why is lack it they never said.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:16]: I'm just saying here's the issue.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:17]: And this quarter we're starting with two point.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:19]: So I'm worried about missing plan.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:20]: Dispatch Analyst, Atf q we talked about already, How much does the bus cost.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:25]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:05:25]: Just get your own code word for that.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:28]: Last section to wrap it up.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:29]: I love power framing, you're not running marketing.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:33]: You're running for office.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:34]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:05:34]: Think of it that way.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:36]: You need to be kissing babies and shaking hands.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:38]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:05:40]: Out there, just like a politician.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:42]: You wanna be CMO everybody wants to work with?

Dave Kellogg[1:05:44]: You wanna be the person out there.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:45]: You wanna have town halls with sales just like the politician, tell me about your issues?

Dave Kellogg[1:05:49]: What can we do?

Dave Kellogg[1:05:50]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:05:51]: You wanna meet the best sellers one on one for sure.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:53]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:05:54]: Like, often the poor sellers have the most time to talk to you.

Dave Kellogg[1:05:57]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:05:58]: So you need to filter who you spend time with.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:00]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:06:00]: But you are running for office, your customer sales, the CEO is your boss and the board is your boss's boss, and don't forget that.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:08]: And by the way, sales is of what have you done for me lately business, they will come for you with the dogs and torches.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:13]: That's all.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:14]: If you wait long enough, and you don't tell them what you're doing, they will come.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:18]: So here are all the tips and tricks you can do.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:20]: Any...

Dave Kellogg[1:06:20]: The final thing you just this is the one of the original ads for advertising?

Dave Kellogg[1:06:24]: I wasn't born when this was run either, but it's a...

Dave Kellogg[1:06:27]: I think it's a great ad.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:28]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:06:28]: I don't know who you are.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:29]: I don't know your company.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:30]: I don't know your company's product.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:31]: This is the original ad for advertising.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:32]: Is Move Mcgraw Hill.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:34]: Now what was it you wanted to sell me.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:35]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:06:36]: So so marketers with marketing marketing, Or in this case, advertisers are been never...

Dave Kellogg[1:06:39]: Advertising advertising for a long time.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:42]: It's something we can do and need to do.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:44]: So let's wrap it up with any...

Dave Kellogg[1:06:46]: Any couple final questions here.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:47]: See Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:50]: And I'm gonna post all these.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:52]: I'm just gonna put the master tips and tick slide up.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:54]: Tips tricks.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:55]: That...

Dave Kellogg[1:06:55]: That's the one.

Dave Kellogg[1:06:56]: Any other questions?

Speaker_4 [1:06:58]: How do you balance the first rain relation with zero and it with the CEO.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:02]: So I think the difference is to me, the CEOs is my boss, the Cro is my customer.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:07]: That's so way I think of it.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:09]: That I did a.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:09]: I saw to somebody last night about a controversial hot take I did, which was...

Dave Kellogg[1:07:13]: Scenarios.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:14]: CEO says go left.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:16]: The Cro says go right.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:18]: What do you do?

Dave Kellogg[1:07:19]: And what do?

Dave Kellogg[1:07:19]: I love to hear hear answers on this?

Dave Kellogg[1:07:21]: Together.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:22]: Okay.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:23]: Good.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:24]: Good.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:24]: All good.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:25]: Right.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:26]: That's a hard situation.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:27]: It happens more than you think.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:28]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:07:28]: Reduction this, but it happens.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:29]: And to me, the answer is first to me, I go right.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:34]: I I go with my customer.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:36]: You're my boss.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:36]: You're my customer, you think my job is to keep them happy.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:40]: So logically, I go right.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:42]: Then somebody said it, get him together in a room.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:45]: That's the right answer to say, hey, okay.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:48]: But tactically, in the moment, if if forced, I will go right not left.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:51]: And I've watched a lot of CMOs die going left.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:54]: Because what happens is and and this happens with the CEO is not aligned with the Cro.

Dave Kellogg[1:07:58]: So you're getting different direction.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:00]: You think you're pleased in the boss.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:02]: You think you're doing great, and then sales comes for you.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:05]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:08:06]: And and you may get a hundred percent of your okay our payments up until the day they fire you.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:10]: Right?

Dave Kellogg[1:08:11]: Because you were doing what the CEO said, but sales will come for you in the end.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:15]: If you're not treating them like a customer.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:16]: Alright.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:17]: I'll take more questions here...

Dave Kellogg[1:08:18]: Yep.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:19]: Alright.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:21]: One more than we

Speaker_4 [1:08:22]: wrap.

Speaker_4 [1:08:22]: Now.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:25]: Yeah.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:25]: I love analogy.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:26]: Thank you for saying that.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:28]: I love analog, and I think you're a powerful communications tool and literally, like, when I'm trying to position a product, I'll put as much energy and like, what's the analogy gonna be?

Dave Kellogg[1:08:37]: Like, what's the perfect?

Dave Kellogg[1:08:38]: My favorite product analogy I ever heard is for security.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:41]: And this is Ancient, but it was catching sm who's was, like, get catching smoke and a butterfly net.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:46]: And like, wow.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:49]: What a great analogy.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:51]: So, the answer is I just put a lot of thought into it.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:53]: I almost up.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:53]: Alright.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:54]: Well, thanks very much.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:55]: I hope that was useful guys.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:56]: Thanks, lunch.

Dave Kellogg[1:08:58]: Awesome.

Dave Kellogg[1:09:00]: Thank you.

Dave Gerhardt [1:09:07]: Hey.

Dave Gerhardt [1:09:07]: Thanks for listening to this podcast.

Dave Gerhardt [1:09:08]: If you like this episode.

Dave Gerhardt [1:09:10]: Do you know what?

Dave Gerhardt [1:09:10]: I'm not even gonna ask you to subscribe and leave a review because I don't really care about that.

Dave Gerhardt [1:09:15]: I have something better for you.

Dave Gerhardt [1:09:16]: So We've built the number one private community for B2B marketers at Exit Five, and you can go and check that out instead of leaving a rating a review, go check it out right now on our website, exitfive.com.

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Dave Gerhardt [1:09:42]: Ideas, inspiration, asking questions and getting feedback from your peers, building your own network of marketers who are doing the

Dave Gerhardt [1:09:49]: same thing you are so you can have

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Dave Gerhardt [1:09:56]: It's a hundred percent free to join for seven days so you can go and check it out risk free from and then there's a small annual fee to pay if you wanna become a member for the year.

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