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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
[00:00:00] DC: Brand Nerds, Brand Nerds, Brand Nerds. Oh, yeah, we got a hot one.
We got a hot one today from across the pond. Larry, we'll get into more of that in a moment. Larry, I'ma do something a little different up top here for the Brand Nerds. I wanna start with some data, data. Ah. Yeah. Okay. Some data. In this world of performance-driven marketing, there are a few, uh, pieces of data I'd like to share that give some insight into the perspective of employees, so people that are working for a company.
Some of this data is Millennials and Gen Z, but then some of the data is overall- Right ... people that are just working for companies. The first data point is this: 90%. 90% of Gen Zs and Millennials say that purpose in work is important for them. Purpose in work is important for them, and they are more likely to turn down a job if it does not align with their purpose.
That's 90%. It's from a study, uh, from Deloitte, uh, in a millennial survey, Gen Z and millennial survey 2024.
[00:01:26] LT: Next data point- Hold on a second. Let's not move. I just wanna accentuate that. Yeah. That nine out of 10 people- Nine out of 10 ... nine out of 10 people. So what that's saying, nine out of 10 people, you know, we all have our price, but nine out of 10 people are gonna have that really high as part of what their decision tree is.
That's huge.
[00:01:47] DC: Absolutely right, Larry. Next data point. Now, this is all employees. When companies hire you all Brand Nerds, they invest a lot of money to get you to come in. They have recruiters that are making sometimes to bring you in two and a half times your salary, your total compensation. Uh, they're training you.
These companies are training you, and then they want you to stay around. When you leave, particularly if you leave in a couple years, they're losing money in what they've invested in you. So turnover, retention, very important for these companies. 52%, you are less likely to leave a company if that employee engages in some program that you have that allows them to engage, and volunteering is one of the top reasons why they say, "I'm half as likely to leave if you got programs that are about purpose and you allow me, uh, to volunteer."
[00:02:55] LT: Really interesting.
[00:02:56] DC: Now, that's, uh, that's Benevity. That's 2022. So you... These numbers have only gone up since then. Right. Give you another data point. 94%, okay, all employees, they say, "If there is a program inside of my company that allows me to engage with the community, you better have volunteering." So 94% say, "Volunteering program.
That- that's what... I'm down with that. Thank you very much." Last data point. Now, this goes back to millennial and, uh, and Gen Z. 75% of them say, "I will take less money to work for a company whose values align with mine." Less money. Okay, th- Wow ... th- th- this is like, this data is, I think, seismic Because I don't hear very many brands and companies talk about this data.
Right. I don't hear them talk about this data.
[00:04:01] LT: You talk ab- You hear them talk about it surfacely, D- Yeah ... but not
[00:04:04] DC: in any deep way. Yeah. No, no, no. You don't, you, you hear about starting salaries. Right. You hear about how the economy, this is global now, how the economy impacts, uh, the hiring of, uh, newly minted undergrads and grads.
You hear about that kind of s- You don't hear about this.
[00:04:22] LT: You don't hear about this data. You also hear it about certain brands that are purpose-driven, right? That, that- Yes ... that's appealing to certainly Gen Z and some Millennials as well. But you don't hear it the way you've just espoused it.
[00:04:33] DC: No. And again, just to, just be clear, Brand Nerds, some of the data that I've mentioned, the 90% and the 75%, that's Gen Z and Millennials.
But that 52% lower turnover and 95, 94%, like volunteering needs to be standard, that's everybody. That, that's everybody. So why am I mentioning this? Because, Brand Nerds, the guest that we have now understood this before the data- Yeah ... arrived. Way before. Yeah. So the, the, the data was not there. What, what, uh, Fizdale, I remember him, former coach, assistant coach at Miami- David Fizdale
went to, yeah. Memphis Grizzlies. Went to Memphis. Yeah. "Take that for data." That's right. He was very upset at, at the mic, "Take that for data." Our next guest had a feel for this before there was a Deloitte study, before anyone had even remotely thought about this. I say this, uh, Brand Nerds, because over the course of your careers, one of the most important attributes that will determine the success or failure rate of your career is the an- ability to anticipate that which is coming- Yeah
that has yet to arrive. Brand Nerds, we have, uh, coming up for Larry and I, our brother. Hmm. He is someone, um, um, if you think about life and people like math, and you think of the components and formulas of math, you have people that you meet that subtract. They subtract energy. You have those that divide.
They'll divide you and others. You have some that will give an addition, and then you have the rare few that will multiply. This brother has been a multiplier in my life at so many stages, through so many years. Um, when I leave his presence, I always leave- Higher than when I came in. With that, LT, let the peoples know formally who we have in the building with us today.
[00:07:04] LT: Only DC could set that up. DC, we have Stephen Greene in the house today. Welcome, SG.
[00:07:10] Stephen Greene: Uh, my brothers, good to be with you.
[00:07:12] LT: And, and SG, as you know, it's that, what DC just set up is so perfect, and only he could put it that way to, can bring something as left-brained as math and bring it to that equation, right?
Pun intended. All right. SG, we gotta let the, as the Brand Nerds know who we have in the building. Uh, you know, we know you've listened to the show, so that's what, uh, our task is to go on to do right now. All right. So okay. We also affectionately call Stephen by his is- initials SG, as you have al- uh, already heard, Brand Nerds, and we are so excited to have SG on today, and you will quickly, quickly learn why.
By way of background, SG is based in London and has been for quite some time, but he is a native of the Pacific Northwest and attends the University of Oregon, where he earns a BA in psychology before matriculating at UCLA, where he earns his MBA in finance and entrepreneurship. All right, Brand Nerds. So every one of you listening or watching this needs to know that SG is one of the shining lights in the universe who believes commerce and doing good for the world and others are not mutually exclusive.
It's what DC was talking about, the multiplier. But can actually be in concert with one another figurativly- figuratively and literally. This vision led SG to start a company called Rockcorps in 2003. At Rockcorps, they partner with visionary brands to unlock the power of music, youth, and community. Brands partner with Rockcorps to create impactful partnerships that deliver a, a triple benefit for individuals, for society, and to strengthen consumer emotional connection with their brand.
And dare I say, a fourth benefit, and that's what DC was alluding to, to also strengthen the connections they have internally at their company. Mm-hmm. By collaborating with Rockcorps, brands access world-class marketing and communications aligning with a strong social purpose. Leveraging the power of music and culture, Rockcorps inspire youth to engage in civic life through their core philosophy of three words: give, get, given.
Here's how it works Powered by brand partnerships, participants give four hours of their time, and in return, receive a ticket to the hottest concert of the year. And oh, by the way, you cannot purchase a ticket to this concert. You can only attend by doing your four hours of volunteer work. They have run this play all over the globe, in the UK, Mexico, the US, Colombia, France, Australia, South Africa, Japan, and many mo- other countries.
A critical component to this is working with headline artists young people are clamoring to see. Rockcorps has worked with some of the world's biggest artist- artists, including Snoop Dogg, Maroon 5, Rihanna, Lady Gaga, Nas, to just name a few. At the end of the day, SG and his fantastic team at Rockcorps believe in the limitless power of youth.
At their core, Rockcorps is inspiring young people to change the world, take action, and experience the power of volunteering. This loop positively benefits communities and the brand partners. Globally to date, they have produced more than 55 live concert events, working with over 200,000 volunteers who have given more than 800,000 hours to volunteering with 2,500-plus non-governmental organizations.
Brand Nerds, what you also should know is in 2005, Rockcorps launched their very first brand partnership with boost mobile when DC was the CMO. This is the foundation for why SG and all of Rockcorps are family to us. Outside of Rockcorps, no surprise, SG contributes mightily to community, including in 2012 to 2018, where he is chair for the UK National Citizen Service, which was known a- a- as NCS, an aspirational program for all 15 to 17-year-olds in Great Britain, aiming to help build their confidence and provide them with skills for work and life.
He was appointed to this c- to this position by UK Prime Minister at the time, David Cameron. That was, that was awesome. Currently, he is also involved in many other things: one, non-executive director for UK Year of Service, two, trustee for Raspberry Pi Foundation, three, associate trustee for Young Camden Foundation, and four, advisory board member for Centre for Charity Effectiveness.
Super excited for this one. Welcome to Brands, Beats, and Bytes, Stephen Greene.
[00:11:47] Stephen Greene: Oh, LT, thanks so much. I could just sit here all day. You guys keep talking. It's perfect. Uh, but, uh, what a privilege it is to be with the doctors. Thank you so much.
[00:11:57] DC: Welcome, bro. Very welcome. All you, man. Yes. Awesomely you. Uh, all right, SG, we are going to g- do the get comfy, uh, section.
And, and, oh, by the way, b- b- before, before we get to get comfy, Larry, have I ever started a podcast with the data? Oh, now we, we've done a couple hundred of these. Have I ever- No ... never before? No. Well, ne- never, never before. And I was inspired to do that, Brand Nerds- Because as you all are evaluating your, particularly the Brand Nerds that are starting, uh, and beyond, but those that are starting, you're evaluating your career decisions, whether it's your first job, second or third.
Be bold in expressing that th- these data. Do not compromise your values, your purpose for a check. Don't do that. And we, we believe you will learn through this discussion we're having with S.G. that there is enormous upside in staying true to who you really are and working with brands and people that align with that.
That said, uh, get comfy section. Uh, S.G., you will immediately be familiar with this particular moment that I'm going to bring forward, and I'd like you to talk about what that moment was for you and what you were thinking in the moment. Larry, throughout each of our careers, there will be times that I refer to as moments of truth.
They don't happen every year. Sometimes they don't happen every two or three years. But when they happen, you know it. And in that moment of truth, you could either go left, and I don't mean good by going left, or you can go right. And it can have an extremely large impact, not only for that moment, but for the rest of your life.
S.G. and I experienced such a moment. So I, I'm, I'm head of marketing, as you, uh, mentioned, Larry, in the upfront, at Boost Mobile, and I find out about this concept of Rockcorps, and they were already doing their thing, uh, in a few places around the country, from a very good friend of mine and, and S.G.'s, and now yours, Larry, Chris Robinson, the prolific director, movie, TV, and when he started, music video director, Chris Robinson, whom I affectionately refer to as Nitty.
Uh, by the way, uh, Chris, if you're listening to this, uh, uh, Nitty, uh, we, we need the next installment of the ATL, but I digress. I digress. So I learned about this through, through Nitty. Stephen comes down from LA to Irvine. This is the, uh, headquarters of, uh, Boost Mobile, and we meet. We are in my office. It's just the two of us in my office, and this is a discussion that we are having About whether our two companies are going to work together or not.
So th- this meeting was, are we gonna do something or are we not going to do something? Now, I say that, Brand Nerds, because Stephen is like me and Larry. It doesn't take us a lot of time or preamble to get down to a meeting of are we gonna work together or not. In some companies, you have to go on and on and on.
Like, they, they say about a, a, a former place where Larry and I used to work, Stephen knows well, Coca-Cola, it's hard to get a yes on, on doing something. It's even harder to get a no, th- because you have to go through so many different people and meetings. With folks like S.G. and I and Larry, it doesn't take that, that many meetings.
So we both knew in this meeting that we were having, either we were gonna depart this meeting with at le- at least some path forward, or it just wasn't gonna happen. This was a moment of truth meeting. I've done a lot to set this up. S.G., I'd like you to take it from here, paint the picture for the Brand Nerds, and walk them through what you were thinking so they can learn how to play a moment of truth.
[00:16:44] Stephen Greene: Well, I remember that day in Irvine like it was yesterday. I do, too. One of those, one of those moments-
[00:16:49] DC: Yep
[00:16:49] Stephen Greene: ... in your life and career. Mm-hmm. So just to set it up, so we had this idea. Um, it was seven of us. Uh, Chris had done some work for you at Boost Mobile, the iconic national launch ad for Boost Mobile with Kanye, Game, and Ludacris.
[00:17:07] DC: Correct.
[00:17:08] Stephen Greene: You guys were in a moment. Things were going well. And the seven of us had this idea that two of our co-founders, Grady and Toby, had kicked around and done for a while in Denver. And we had an idea of taking it national where we're really inspired out of the terrorist attacks in 2001. We wanted to do something for New York.
So the i- the something was produce a gig that you couldn't buy any tickets for. We wanted to invite young people, and we call our audience now currently Xennials, so Gen Z, young millennials, sort of 18 to 30 is our sweet spot. We wanted to invite them into their communities in New York to do something, and that something is volunteering on a project we organized.
They get a ticket to see this gig at Radio City Music Hall. And it was really Chris, and one of the greatest storytellers I've ever worked with, who just sees things. And he, I... When we first heard about this idea, I wasn't so keen on it because I'd just come out of my MBA, had left nonprofit and just didn't wanna do another nonprofit.
And Chris said, "This isn't a nonprofit." we're gonna do brand partnership.
[00:18:16] LT: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:16] Stephen Greene: This is a sponsorship platform. You know, just like a music tour or an NBA team. I said, "Well, if that's true, that's huge." And that insight from Chris changed my life. Mm-hmm. So we set about finding that right partner, and so this leads to this meeting in Irvine.
I drove down from West Hollywood to Irvine, hot day. You know those gigantic sort of office buildings that are three stories tall, about a mile wide- Yeah ... and the huge parking lots. Go up to see DC. They, they were pretty brand new in that office. It was all- Yeah ... kicking off for Boost Mobile.
[00:18:49] LT: We were. We
[00:18:49] Stephen Greene: go in, we got g- you know, this is before video conference.
We've got Chris on the Polycom speaker, and we're talking and going through the whole thing, and like you said, DC, you cut right to it. In 15 minutes you're like, "Right, I love it. You guys don't have any track record," right? Back then there had been no Lady Gaga, no Snoop Dogg, no Nas. Yeah. We were just a couple of dudes and an idea and a vision, and you're like, "Great, you know, I really like the vision. How much is it gonna cost?" And I flipped that chart over, walked DC through it, and y- y- I, I, I've learned a long time ago not to try and i- imitate DC, so you just have to imagine the voice when it happens. But he leans into the Polycom. He says, "Ooh, Chris, you better tell your boy to take his ski mask off." "There's a robbery happening here."
[00:19:36] DC: That's right. Oh, shit.
[00:19:39] LT: And by the way, and by the way, SG, I, uh, Brand Nerds, I'm not g- I'm gonna shut up, but I just wanna interject this one quick point. I've heard this story a lot, and if you put $5 out, he would've said that, but go ahead. Yeah, yeah. That's true. That's true.
And,
[00:19:52] Stephen Greene: but you know, we'd had a few conference calls before, but this is my... I've now been in his physical presence for 20 minutes in my entire life at this moment, right? Right. And he's telling me to take my ski mask off.
[00:20:02] DC: That's right. That's right.
[00:20:03] Stephen Greene: I didn't break character. I looked at him. I flipped my laptop closed, grabbed it and started putting it back in my briefcase and said, you know, "I'm out of here."
And DC said, "No, no, no," and he grabbed me by the elbow. When he grabbed me by that elbow- Yeah ... I thought, "We can do some business with this guy," right? And it went from there, and DC signed on, and I, I, I, like I said, I call him a co-founder because without his vision of what this could be, even seeing things that we couldn't, uh, that we were, you know, nine months later in Radio City Music Hall with 5,000 young people who were just having the experience of their lifetime after giving back to one of their five boroughs in New York.
So yep, that's where it all began and, and DC had that same vision. We put these two visions together and, and off it went.
[00:20:49] DC: Uh, okay. E- I got a question. Larry, any, any questions? All right. Okay.
[00:20:56] LT: No, I wanna hear your side of this. All
[00:20:58] DC: right, so s- all right, so SG, b- b- I got chicken skin now. Uh, for the, for the US, uh, brethren and sisteren, that's goosebumps.
Um, that's goosebumps. I have chicken skin now thinking about them. As you were describing it, I was transported back to that office in that moment with Chris on the, uh, on the Polycom. When I said, "Yo, Chris," I lean o- I remember leaning over, looking into the, uh, the Polycom. A- again, as, as, as you said, there was no Zoom, there were no Teams, there was no, no camera, there was no FaceTime.
It was just voice. And saying, "Yo, you, you gotta tell your boy to take the ski mask off. Like, we can't... Like, he can't be trying to stick me up like this, okay?" And, and we n- and here we are 20 minutes in, tops. When you closed the laptop, you also had the briefcase that had the mic in it and all that. You go- Yeah
tell the Brand Nerds what went through your mind in those milliseconds to decide that was your move.
[00:22:08] Stephen Greene: W- we were just really proud of our vision. We knew we were creating something, and even in those early moments, we weren't gonna let that vision be disrespected. And I knew you, you, you and Chris were good friends and colleagues even at that point.
[00:22:21] LT: Yeah.
[00:22:21] Stephen Greene: But I just needed to show you the, even though we don't take ourselves terribly seriously- Yeah ... we take our work really serious.
[00:22:28] DC: Yeah.
[00:22:29] Stephen Greene: And I felt that the work was being slighted in a- Yeah ... in a, in a joshing way. But I had to send a s- In a, but still slighted,
[00:22:35] DC: yes ...
[00:22:35] Stephen Greene: I had to send a signal back to you, like, "No, this is real business here, and, uh, we're looking for a partner who understands that."
[00:22:44] DC: Um, in that moment, I'll tell you what I was thinking. So let, let me just back up a sec. So Brand Nerds, remember this: You walk into a meeting, or in this case if you're on, in a, a video conference of some sort, if you walk into it wanting a deal, and you are the one seeking the money, you may perceive that you're at a disadvantage.
You're not. The advantage comes with how much you believe in your own vision, how confident you are in what it is you're bringing forward to whoever the buyer happens to be. I already knew that I wanted to work, I wanted our company to work with their company. I needed to know who we were working with.
Mm-hmm. The, the idea was one thing. The humans involved was another. I knew Chris. I knew Nitty. I didn't know SG. So that, that moment of me, a little bit of jousting, was a bit... I'm, I'm not saying I was contemplating it this way, but I think it ended up being this way. It was a bit of a, a test. Like, can he handle that we're into this at the 20-minute mark?
Are we gonna be able to have fun with one another? Will he stand his ground? Will he stand his ground? Like, all of this was in that, that, th- that 10-second moment. And when he closed that, both the laptop and the case, the case was just elegant. I wish I still had mine.
[00:24:29] Stephen Greene: Oh, I should've saved it.
[00:24:30] DC: Yeah. I, I wish I still had mine.
And he got up. Like, I, I was, I... As he said, I was grabbing at his elbow. "No, no, man. We, we good. We good." Now, what I don't know, and I've never had this conversation with Chris, Larry, or SG, is what he thought when I said what I said, 'cause he, he of course can't see you get up.
[00:24:49] LT: Right. Mm-hmm. But
[00:24:50] DC: he can hear me say, "Oh, no, no, no, man.
Come on. We're, we're good." So it, it, it was such a incredible moment for me because I thought as they were... They needed to go national. We, uh, Boost Mobile, we were going national, so there was simpatico. Uh, they were about helping the community. Uh, we were about boosting the lifestyle and status of young people, dot, dot, dot, in ways that matter.
So these things went together from a branding perspective brilliantly. So I thought in that moment we were getting a partner, like a business partner. I didn't know I was getting a lifelong friend.
[00:25:32] Stephen Greene: My man.
[00:25:32] LT: Ah.
[00:25:33] Stephen Greene: Yeah.
[00:25:33] LT: Yeah. I
[00:25:33] DC: didn't know that.
[00:25:35] LT: That's awesome. Can I add one thing to this? Of course, bro. I love this story.
Uh, what, what I'm also gleaning from this, from both of you gentlemen, is that, um, you know, and this brand nerds you need to know on both sides of the equation, whether you're the buyer or the seller, too often people jump to... The seller many times thinks, "Oh, it's too expensive." Yeah. Right? Right? Um, and in reality, to DC's point, if it's something you really want, you'll negotiate the cost.
It's... Un- unless it's, unless you're completely out of the stratosphere of what the value is, that's just, you know, money negotiations. Uh, i- invariably, it's whether the connection is, is right and whether the fit is right. Yeah. And clearly in DC's case and in, and in SG's case at the time, the fit was perfect.
You work out the details later. But too often people go right to the money, when in reality that's usually not the reason why these things don't happen.
[00:26:38] DC: A great point, Larry. Uh, I'm gonna say this, uh, one, one thing as, as it relates to that. This is... You are spot on. So we had our attorney, our attorney, wonderful Joanne, Joanne, uh, uh, Magnum.
Um, I'm, I'm not pronouncing her last name right, but Joanne, I'm sorry about that. Wonderful attorney for us. As well as, uh, Fuelly, Mark Fuelly And, and Stephen and Rockcorps, they had their attorney. And when you have attorneys representing their clients excellently, as they are paid to do, they reach an impasse.
Th- they're gonna reach an impasse likely on the... And whenever that would happen, either I would call SG and he would call me, we'd have a, an adult conversation, and we'd then go talk to our respective attorneys and work our, and, and work our way through it. It's important, Brand Nerds, I'm repeating myself, to know and discern, I should say, who you're working with before you consummate the deal.
Yep. You don't wanna find out who you're really working with after the deal is done.
[00:27:48] LT: Yep.
[00:27:49] DC: You wanna find out before the deal is done. SG's style is much different than mine, but in terms of, uh, our desire to work with really good people on really complicated things that can be simplified by steel sharpen steel moments, one of the best experiences I've ever had in my life.
[00:28:17] LT: Mm. Super cool. Cool. One other quick point I wanna make- Yes, sir ... and I, and SG, you know, we're gonna g- we're gonna get to the, to the next segment, but this is important for Brand Nerds on both sides of this equation. Mm-hmm. The lawyers work for you. Yes. You don't work for the lawyers. So many times you'll have attorneys say, "Oh, you can't do this deal.
They're not indemnifying you." And that's- Yes. We- ... all this, you know, that comes up- Oh, we had
[00:28:39] DC: that discussion.
[00:28:41] LT: Mm-hmm. Right? Yes. I'm sure you did, that's why I brought it up.
[00:28:44] DC: Yeah.
[00:28:44] LT: That's gonna come up with law- That's one of the first things they always go, "Oh, who's indemnifying whom?" And at the end of the day, what I've learned also, and that's what DC was alluding to, you could have all the, the I's dotted and the T's crossed with a contract, but if you are working with somebody who's nefarious and isn't, isn't trustworthy, you're still gonna get sued, right?
Right. Versus having paper that might not be with all the I's dotted and T's crossed, but you're working with somebody that you, that there's trust on both sides. That's much more important. So anyway, let's go to the next segment, D.
[00:29:21] DC: L- LT, can I just add one thing? And I'm sorry. Sure. I know we do need to get to- This is
[00:29:24] LT: important, actually, for Brand Nerds to know.
[00:29:26] DC: The converse is also true, and that is when you know who you're working with before the deal is done, after the deal is done, you get more value. Right. So let me give you a quick example. Great point. When we did the deal, we committed, uh... And, and we all did it together. We said, "We're gonna do TV spots and all of this to promote it."
[00:29:55] LT: Right.
[00:29:55] DC: That's in the contract now. That's in the contract. So as we start getting into this, we start to recognize that maybe the best media vehicle to, at the time, was, uh, out of home, but a unique kind of out of home, which Stephen can, can talk to better than I, and radio. Like terrestrial radio. Mm. Not TV.
So Stephen and I have to talk about this.
[00:30:24] LT: Right.
[00:30:25] DC: Now Stephen could have said, "Oh no, bro. No, this... You, you see, you see this contract right here?" "You, you see this contract? No, you're gonna do this many 30-second spots. You're buying this much media. That is here. It's in black and white." That is not what he did.
After we talked about it, got through it, and, and we, and we, our teams collectively figured out what's the best way to reach the objective, which were getting the 5,000 butts in the seats in New York, it was good. But if we hadn't had the relationship that we had-
[00:31:02] LT: Right ...
[00:31:02] DC: this thing could've come apart after the deal was done, to your point, Larry.
Right. SG, anything you wanna add to that? Yeah, I think
[00:31:09] Stephen Greene: you guys, you're, you're so right about, um, when the conversation around price or cost comes up. Uh, we really learned there's an inverse correlation. The earlier that subject is brought up by the buyer, the less likely you are to do the deal. Mm-hmm.
Right? It's an inverse correlation. Oh, interesting. And when we'll have an initial meeting with a potential brand partner and we'll be debriefing to the team, the question always comes up, "Did they ask about how much it costs?" And I say, "Oh yeah, in the first 10 minutes." "Oh, it's not happening then." Yeah. But if they said, "We just had our first meeting and they loved it and it's a great exchange," never talked about cost, you have a much better probability that you'll, you'll come to a close and an agreement.
So there's an inverse correlation of how, what they're thinking, uh, in those early conversations.
[00:31:58] DC: Interesting. Very interesting. Totally
[00:32:01] Stephen Greene: see that, D. That makes total
[00:32:02] LT: sense
[00:32:02] Stephen Greene: to
[00:32:02] DC: me. Doesn't it? Doesn't it? Yeah. Dropping jew-els, uh, Brand Nerds. Okay, now we will go... Sorry about that, Larry. Sorry, SG. No, all good. No, that, that-
[00:32:12] Stephen Greene: We, we got stories.
[00:32:13] DC: Yeah, we- That's right ... we definitely got stories. We go to five questions now. Larry and I ask questions b- back and forth until we arrive at five. I get to, uh, I get to begin. Um, I, I'm the first pitch. Uh, by the way, um, uh, Brand Nerds, speaking of pitches, SG is a Tiggers fan, okay? Detroit Tiggers. Skubal, by the way, looks like he's gonna be coming back earlier than before, earlier than before.
Got a little, got a little surgery on his, uh, on his pitching ar- arm, but he, he looks like he's coming back before. All right, here we go. What was your first experience with a brand, SG? That touched your soul
[00:32:57] LT: Hmm
[00:32:57] DC: You, you, you were so into this brand or brand experience that as you engaged, you lost track of time.
You may have thought, "I've been, I've been doing this thing for 10 minutes and it's been, like, two hours." Almost like a first love. What was this for you?
[00:33:19] Stephen Greene: Well, that's real easy for me, and you know a little bit about this, DC, but you have to flip it slightly. My, my first love started with a band- Hmm ... the Grateful Dead.
Oh, yeah. Okay? Yeah. So think about, um, the very first time I saw Jerry Garcia play, he'd had a coma. We all thought we were gonna lose him. Uh, my good college buddy Dave, Dave Jack, he took me down to Oakland to see the Jerry Garcia Band come back out after Jerry's coma. He was alive. He was gonna play again.
It was Halloween. It's Oakland. Oh, wow. He opened a, he opened the show with How Sweet It Is, a cover of a Marvin Gaye song. Hmm. Marvin Gaye, and he, you know, that's how s- to be loved by you, right? He's singing to all his fans. Mm-hmm. He closes the show with Werewolves of London, a Warren Zevon song. It's Halloween.
It's Oakland. It's dark. It's the autumn. It was magical. I was hooked. We went right back down at New Year's Eve. The Dead are famous, were famous, for their New Year's Eve shows. This is Kaiser Auditorium in Oakland, this gigantic barn. Been there a long time. You go down to- Wait, so SG,
[00:34:29] LT: I just have to point out, the Bay- the Grateful Dead was found- they're Bay Area dudes.
Oh, yeah. So any time they were in the Bay Area, it had an even more special- Oh, yeah ... romantic part to it. So go ahead.
[00:34:42] Stephen Greene: No, this is, this is New Year's Eve. Um, my, my two best buddies in college, Dave Jack, Patrick Moore, rest in peace, they introduced me to this music. I go down for New Year's. The Dead were really famous for their New Year's Eve shows, right?
Yep. The, the fans would come from all over the country, all over the world, to see these New Year's Eve shows. Kaiser Auditorium, it was just, my mind was so expanded. So I, I fell very much in love with this music, the sound, uh, the whole kind of subculture around the band. You know, I was in, born and raised in Portland, went to school in Eugene.
The Dead was just in the air, right? It was part of the culture there. And, um, what I then found out much later, and it's all made perfect sense in retrospect, is this band was so far ahead of itself, right? That they, they knew that the product was the community, right? And they nurtured the Deadheads. Mm.
They knew to give their music away. In fact, at every concert they had a section reserved for the tapers, and you could bring in- a tape deck and a microphone and set it up and record the show. What other band has or ever done that? And then the fans would trade that. They knew to share that around. They understood scarcity, right?
They, uh, um, i- if the Dead probably in the last 20 years of playing, they would usually play three nights in each city, and over those three nights they wouldn't repeat one song, right? So you had to go to all three nights to hear your favorite tracks. Wow. Ah. They played over 2,000, almost 3,000 shows, never the same show twice.
It was always mixed up. So these guys understood something that was so far ahead of the rest of the music industry at the time. In fact, and this is a fun story, there's a book out there called The Marketing Lessons of The Grateful Dead that break this all down, and you know who wrote it? Brian Halligan.
He started a little company you might have heard of called HubSpot, where he's- Wow ... taking all of these lessons and, uh, built this incredible, uh, uh, database management software company. So I thought I was falling in love with the music, but I was really falling in love with this, this brand, this whole way of life- Mm
uh, that the community is the product, and you nurture that. And boy, that has really informed what we do at Rockcorps, right? The, the show isn't the music. That just enables the audience, and the audience are the community, and that's the whole ballgame right there.
[00:37:18] LT: That's so great. Wow.
[00:37:20] DC: Wow.
[00:37:21] LT: D, I know you have thoughts.
[00:37:23] DC: Uh, no, you go ahead, Larry. You go ahead, man.
[00:37:25] LT: So what's interesting, SG, uh, uh, my best friend growing up, Scott Doniger, who's been a, a, a guest on this show, was a huge Deadhead, and we were basketball teammates growing up, and I was an R&B funk guy. So we, we, and we used, when we were in a car, we used to have 15 minutes of our music, right?
And which was really funny, and we always respected one another. So while I wasn't a Deadhead, I was best friends with one, and what, what I find so interesting about Deadheads too is that, like, they al- they were so genuine and authentic. Like, they were all about, like SG said, their community and their Deadheads, and it's not like they...
They'd be fine for having other people. Bill Walton's the most famous Deadhead. Rest in peace, Bill Walton, right? Yeah. And Bill Walton's famous for bringing his whole Boston Celtics team to, to Dead concerts, and he brought them backstage, and he joked that Danny Ainge's wife wouldn't let him go 'cause Danny Ainge is LDS, right?
And, and, and the, and they're all the secondhand smoke. But so they were welcoming everybody, but they were, they didn't give a shit if you did not like them. Yeah. They were all about their community, like, like SG said, and really being authentic to that, and that's what I think, to, to your point about the marketing lessons, oh my God, like that's, there's so much to be learned.
[00:38:48] Stephen Greene: Mm-hmm. Hmm. They were the first, y- y- you know... Y- y- you think about it now, where all musicians really make their money on the road, right? Touring and live is where the revenue- Right. Yeah ... is. That was the Dead, right? Right. They- Yeah. Early on, yeah ... their, their studio albums weren't that great. They were- Right
a live act. They were improvisational. It was the interaction with the audience that really- Right ... made that magic. And so they, they toured, y- you know, 60, 70 shows a year, year after year. Never the same, never the same twice. Uh, unbelievable, uh, uh, innovators.
[00:39:21] DC: What a great answer. Uh, I- Yep ... I'll do this and then Larry, kick it to you for the next question.
I went to a baseball game, uh, this past weekend here in Atlanta. It was at the, uh, at the Battery, and it was the Savannah Bananas.
[00:39:36] LT: Yeah. Who,
[00:39:38] DC: uh, I'd never been to one of those games. Um- Mm ... and, uh, for those are, who are not familiar, think of the Harlem Globetrotters, but on steroids. I- i- i- it's on steroids. Um- For baseball,
[00:39:50] LT: though, just to be clear
baseball,
[00:39:51] DC: correct. Baseball. Thank you, Larry, but baseball. We're walking through the Battery and, uh, I see these yellow tents selling merchandise, and the stanchions surrounding them are all yellow with signs that say "Enter, Exit." And I took away from that moment, they're like, "Yeah, we're here to do a game, but this merchandise that you see here- Mm-hmm
this is all us. We don't need the tents from the Battery." You know they got tents at the Battery. They sell stuff- Mm-hmm ... all the time. No, no, no. We need a yellow branded tent. We need yellow stanchions. We need that around. We need everything to be on brand. The Dead used to sell a hell of a lot of merch- Yep
as well.
[00:40:39] LT: Yep.
[00:40:40] DC: Branding geniuses. All right, Larry, next question.
[00:40:43] LT: All right. Uh, SG, who has, had, or is having the most influence on your career?
[00:40:47] Stephen Greene: Well, I've, I've answered this one, um, before, but I've never answered it with, uh, DC on the line here, right? So it's a joke. My, the biggest influence of mine is a pianist, a public housing guy, and a brand executive walk into a bar, right?
That's the beginning of the joke, right? Now, the pianist, the musician, was my mom, okay? So she's, uh, was a wonderful musician, mostly taught during my lifetime, but so dedicated to, uh, music. My sister Kirsten, my older brother Michael, we were not allowed to play music as background in the house, right? That's not how you respected music.
Hmm. So if you were gonna play music We sat and we listened to it, right? So- Mm. Uh, she was an expert in Verdi opera, right? If you were gonna listen to a Verdi opera, you didn't just put it on for background music while you were having dinner. Uh- Or cleaning the house ... or clean- cleaning the house. No. Yeah.
If music was on, that's what we were doing, and she would tell you through it and walk you through it. So the music wasn't background. It was the center, right? Mm-hmm. That, that big influence on me. Uh, the public housing guy is my stepdad, um, uh, uh, Lynn Musoff. Rest in peace. He was the executive director, the CEO of the Portland Housing Authority.
They ran all the public housing units in Portland. Back when he was running it, it was about 10,000 units, subsidized housing in Portland.
[00:42:19] LT: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:20] Stephen Greene: And, and Lynn and his colleagues, they were really ahead of the curve. You know, there was no such things that they build as housing projects in Portland.
Everything was blended housing, affordable housing. Mm. So the way the city worked, if a builder wanted to build X percent, maybe 40% had to be affordable housing, subsidized housing.
[00:42:42] LT: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:43] Stephen Greene: And he knew that people moved up to hit their aspirations and their goals in life through integration, for inviting them into the community.
Mm-hmm. Same kids. Some are paying full freight, some are subsidized, but they're all in the same playground. They're all at the same basketball court. They're all at the same nurseries. Mm-hmm. You put the people in the center. You integrate them. Big influence on how I think about Rockcorps, right? These young people, we hand them a hammer, a shovel, a paint brush.
This is their city. They make it. You invite them in, people at the center.
[00:43:18] LT: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:18] Stephen Greene: And my dude, uh, DC, you're the brand executive, right? Mm-hmm. So big influence on me on just the way that you brought quality to your executions. Mm. Everything had to be top shelf. I mean, this a whole 'nother podcast. We need to talk about those green rooms we used to do at those Boost Mobile Rockcorps shows.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. They were- Oh, yeah ... crazy. Lisa Spiritus- Ah ... inviting in LeBron James. Yes. Uh, uh, uh, Jay-Z, Beyoncé, like- Yep ... but that's because they knew those Boost M- that Boost Mobile execution was quality.
[00:43:53] LT: Mm-hmm. You
[00:43:53] Stephen Greene: don't put that to the side when you're talking about community. Mm-hmm. So the Rockcorps volunteer projects, the community projects, we treated the young people coming there like the stars.
Yes. They were the NBA players. That's quality. The music, the people, the brand, you don't put them on the side. They are all in the center. Uh, those are huge influences on me.
[00:44:20] DC: Mm. Wow. Wow.
[00:44:24] LT: Larry? I love the blend of that. It's incredible. Ha- and, and you could see everyth- all the blend of your mom's music, your stepdad's, um...
And by the way, SG, was he the fir- one of the first people to do public housing that way? Or is he- Oh, yeah.
[00:44:41] Stephen Greene: Portland was very, um... Portland's always been quite progressive on its community innovation, right? So, um, they were the first state to have a deposit on your bottles. They were the first state where you, you can't own beach in Oregon, right?
Right. 355 miles along the Oregon coast. Always innovative. So by the time the, he was the CEO of this public housing in the '70s, there was no more h- projects. It was all blended housing. Got it. Brilliant. And that was quite radical 50 years ago.
[00:45:09] LT: Wow. Brilliant. And so you could see your mom, your stepdad in DC in, in Rockcorps.
That's what... That's, that's it, right? I mean, that's the model, and so I love that.
[00:45:20] Stephen Greene: You don't know it at the time, right? These things that make you, but, you know, it's, they're, they're deep in you. And, uh, driving around Portland with Lynn and looking at these sites and what he was building and having explained it to me, my, my teenager self was kind of listening to it, but not really ingesting it.
You know, he'd talk about these playgrounds and these- Right ... nurseries and the community centers. Like, everybody comes here, right? This is for everybody, right? Everybody's invited into the center of the city. And that's Rockcorps, right? No matter who you are, where you come from, we're all equal, and that's why our measurement is time, not money, right?
Everybody has to give four hours to come to these gigs that we produce. There's four hours. Eight hours doesn't buy you front row. Two hours doesn't buy you the back row. Everybody gives four hours. It's the most democratic measure. Everybody is equal, and that's- Love ... the lesson I learned from him, uh, ri- riding around in these developments he put together.
Love it.
[00:46:17] DC: Any more, Larry?
[00:46:19] LT: Nope.
[00:46:20] DC: SG, we're going to the next question. You've had so many successes over the course of your career and life, many of them covered by Larry up top. This third question has nothing to do with any of those. This is about the Ls, not the Ws, and more specifically, the biggest F-up you have made in your career, and on you, not on someone else, on you, not on the economy.
Um, and then most importantly for the Brand Nerds, what you learned from it.
[00:46:56] Stephen Greene: Yeah, this, uh, i- i- this one's kind of hard to talk about, and I wanted to talk to you about, DC, 'cause you saw some of this, right? We mentioned earlier that Rockcorps was started by seven co-founders. Now there's just two there left, right? So we split in 2015, and that was really difficult. Yeah. And I thought a lot about why that happened.
I think there's a lot of reasons. Um, you know, we'd already been at it for 10 years. It was a hard grind. Money's always tough trying to figure out strategy. But really, we were really pushing globally at that time and had been for a few years. You know, this company was started in Los Angeles and New York.
People had families, they were raising kids. Yeah. And I kept pushing, right? I brought the company over to the UK where I live now. We did our first gig at Royal Albert Hall. Kept pushing into Paris. Kept pushing Israel. We brought Rihanna to Israel for her first time ever, 13,000 volunteers. Kept going from there, Venezuela, Colombia, Japan, South Africa, and that really stretched everybody.
Mm-hmm. Really stretched everybody. And y- you know, I, I, I regret that we couldn't keep it together, you know, that original group. Uh, especially Grady, you know, that's my dude. You know, we- Yeah,
[00:48:17] LT: Grady, yeah ... uh,
[00:48:18] Stephen Greene: uh, uh, uh, the, the, the great Texan Hollywood dude, you know? He, um, he had such vision and we were, we were super close, but, you know, we don't really talk anymore.
And I think it's that stretch, uh, that really pushed us over the edge. And so I think about what would I do differently. I think going back, I don't regret at all that Rockcorps is a global company. I'm super proud that we've had this impact around the world. We've been on six continents trying to figure out how to get to Antarctica to make it the seventh.
You know- You will ... I'm really proud of that. Um, but there was a cost to it, right? And losing the, that original group and those friendships. If I had to go back, I think really over-communicating. We were kinda making it up by the seat of our pants. "Yeah, sure, there's an opportunity in France. There's an opportunity in Japan.
Let's go for it." And saying, "Is this what everybody wants?" Ah, yeah. "And if it isn't, how can we make it work for everybody?" Maybe split the company into two, keep a US and a global subsidiary and kinda- Ah, yeah ... do that that way. Uh, there's a lot of things I would've done different, but, um, but kinda losing that original, uh, group is for sure my big- biggest F up 'cause, um, it, it's been a great ride and I lo- owe a lot to, to that original group and their vision.
So, um, yeah, it's hard to talk about. Those are, those are real friendships. But I would say the lesson is communicate over and often. Like, "Why are you talking about this again?" Like, "We've already agreed." "No, I just wanna revisit it one more time. Is everybody on the same page? Do you wanna go to Japan? Do you wanna go to South Africa?
Is this in your vision and not just mine?" I probably ma- I'm sure I made it too much about mine, you know, global domination. Yeah. It's tough.
[00:50:00] DC: Yeah, brother. Hmm. Um,
I-
[00:50:04] LT: What you thinking, D?
[00:50:06] DC: Yes, uh, this, this is, uh, a tough moment for me as well because I remember how close all of us were.
[00:50:17] LT: Hmm.
[00:50:19] DC: Yeah, I, we operated as- One unit with all voices having equal credibility and importance. Um, you, you might see, Larry, uh, someone, let's take Grady for example. We might be in a, uh, pre-production meeting at some venue, and if you were a fly on the wall, it would be clear Grady had great, the great respect of those in the room, including the, uh, the folks who were, um, owners of the, of the venue.
And then you might see him exit that meeting and notice a piece of paper on the floor in the aisle, and he would pick it up and go look for some pl- place, a receptacle to put it in. That was everybody in Rockcorps. Like, we, we all worked that way. When, uh, I remember times when we were, um, in venues for sound checks, so there're not many of us there.
You remember this well, SG. Maybe a total of 20 people, um, um, there, and with, with sound checks. We weren't executives at these sound checks. We were fans. Mm. We were enjoying the artistry of, uh, of the artist. And then most importantly, I remember seeing across the faces of all of the co-founders as we did shows in the, uh, in the US, the, the pride and awe in the audience.
You mentioned that with The Dead, the community is the product. Our community, and I'm saying our- Mm ... 'cause I consider myself to be a part of this family, and, uh, hope to remain so until I take my last breath on this earth. But our community, uh, Larry, um, it is the only music experience I've had where the show starts when the community enters the building.
It doesn't start after people sit down and the warm-up acts go, and then the headliner starts to come on. No. As soon as people hit the building-
[00:52:57] LT: Mm ...
[00:52:57] DC: the party is on. Watching the f- the co-founders watch the community, um, abs- be absorbed by the community, lose themselves in the community, to have that fracture, sad.
Mm. Yeah. Yeah, sad
[00:53:20] Stephen Greene: My man. Well, shout out Hayley Moffet. You know, you're talking about all that- Hayley Moffet, yes ... uh, that pr- our, our head of production. The way that she created those shows, co-founder, were just incredible. She set a quality level- Ah ... in terms of, uh, together with her and our production designer, Rob Bono, and, and Chris' creative genius.
Yeah. The look and feel of those Rockcorps shows. Ah. This, this was not a volunteer show. This was not a free show in the park, right? No. This was a quality, one of the best shows you've ever been to in your, in your life. An incredible design. Hayley put it all on the screen, as they say in the movies, right?
There was not a penny wasted. It all went on that production. Yeah. Um, still think of, uh, uh, uh, um, we were rolling old cars in and out off the stage, you know, vintage cars and- Oh, yeah ... marching bands coming down the aisle in Atlanta. Yeah. And just incredible production. Uh, and it's still that to this day, you know.
Um, we, we, we just did this huge arena show in Paris where The Black Eyed Peas headlined. The Peas are huge in Europe, right? And 200 different community volunteer projects all around Paris, so 15,000 volunteers coming to see The Peas and two great French artists. And the minute that those doors open up and those volunteers come rushing in, it's like a piece of humanity that's really difficult to describe in words.
And I figured out why it is after all these years of watching it. It's what's happened inside of them. They are so proud. Mm-hmm. And they're getting this internal feeling, and you put it all together and it just explodes this whole place. You know, they come to one of these volunteer projects, maybe with a buddy, quite often by themselves.
[00:55:08] LT: Yeah.
[00:55:09] Stephen Greene: And they're so blown away by how much work 100 people can do in the community. Building a classroom, setting up a new wing in a homeless shelter, planting a garden in an old folks home. Mm-hmm. You know, huge transformation. They're, they might have come for the ticket, you know, the extrinsic reward, but through doing that they discover their muscle, their own intrinsic motivation, and they're so proud.
And then they come into this venue, and there's 15,000 other people there. Yeah. And it hits them- Yeah ... that everybody's done the same thing.
[00:55:41] LT: Yeah. There's
[00:55:42] Stephen Greene: no strangers here, right? Yeah. Everybody. You're in the line for a beer or getting your ticket torn, or scanned these days, and you're saying, "H- what did you do?
Where did you do your work?" "Oh, that was cool. I did mine here. What are you gonna do next?" It's just this incredible feeling, and it, it, it, it goes to this day.
[00:56:01] LT: That's ultimate community is what you're talking about- Yeah ... really.
[00:56:05] Stephen Greene: No strangers.
[00:56:06] LT: Yep. No strangers. Oh, great stuff. Larry, you have any questions for them?
All right. Uh, so SG, when it relates to technology and marketing, uh, which is so part of marketing these days, you've seen a lot with the... You just mentioned even ticket taking, how that's changed, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, from tearing tickets to now, you know, there's no such thing as paper tickets anymore that I know.
Can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech? Or you can talk about areas that you think they should be leery or simply avoid.
[00:56:42] Stephen Greene: There's, um, there's two things in this. Um, first I'm gonna talk about working with celebrity, right? So the whole thing, the center that we rotate this whole universe around are some of these great artists that we've been privileged to work with.
Think about that first gig in 2005, what was happening in the music industry? They were selling CDs. Remember- I remember ... the first week album sales would be, if you didn't hit a million, you know, you weren't doing anything. Now, a first-week sales, you know, whi- which is extreme equivalent, if you're doing 100,000, 120- Yeah
that's good, right? Back then it was a million plus.
[00:57:22] LT: Yeah.
[00:57:22] Stephen Greene: And you, y- you know, I went to, um, Lady Gaga's 10 millionth album party. Uh, uh, this was years ago. I don't know the last time someone hit 10 million albums, you know, in a new release, right? So- It's
[00:57:35] LT: probably not gonna ever happen again, quite honestly
[00:57:37] Stephen Greene: the whole shift of the economics of working with musicians has gone to live. Right. Now that sounds great. More product for the fans, more chance to see them. Artists are traveling further and farther. Really tough on our model on Rockcorps, right? So it's, um, it, it, it takes a bigger and bigger percentage of the budget, and it hasn't grown nearly as fast as brand budgets.
In fact, brand budgets are going the other way, unfortunately. You talked about the trade-off between brand and performance earlier, right? So- Right ... our budgets are staying the same, but more and more are going to the artist because that's the rate. And we do pay our artists. They're doing a job for our brand partners, and we're competing, right?
The Black Eyed Peas in my example, they can play once a year in Paris. So if we're gonna take their Paris inventory off the shelf- Right ... right? That doesn't cost what it did 10 years ago. It costs this. So that's, that's put a lot of pressure on us, particularly when something goes a little bit pear-shaped, as the English say, right?
And you have to kind of bring it back. You, you can't be quite as fleet of foot as you used to be in the live business. Now, in terms of working with celebrity, you know, the thing that's really changed, it used to be, and, you know, talking like an old-timer here, but I'm talking 10 years ago, you would book the artist, a- and it could be any influencer you're working with, could, world of sport, uh, uh, could be from the world of culture more broadly.
You would book the artist, and then you had to put a lot of money behind it to know that you were associated with that celebrity That's true to a much lesser extent now. The artists are the media channel, right? Mm-hmm. That's the complete difference. So now we do booking, and the hardest part of the negotiation isn't really date or money, it's use of our artist partners' socials, right?
Wow. How much are we gonna get? And our, our campaigns are named after the brand partners, so the brands have to be named on the socials. So the most difficult negotiation these days is, is the use of the artists' media channels. The artists are the distribution now. Right. I'll, I'll give you a quick story about that.
We did a show a few years ago with Drake in Houston.
[00:59:46] LT: Mm-hmm.
[00:59:46] Stephen Greene: And he, he was doing... He, he, you know, he does, um, uh, um... He has been doing these sort of OVO weekends in Houston, right? Yep, yep. It's his second city. And, um, he, he wanted to do a volunteer concert. So we're gonna recruit volunteers, so we set the website up.
We had no marketing budget and, a- a- and, uh, uh, Drake's long-term manager, Future the Prince, says, "Don't worry, we're just gonna tweet it," right? So we're waiting for the tweet or the post or the story. I think it was, uh, uh, I think it was Instagram, but it might've been back in when Twitter was in its hey.
And he didn't put it out on his channel because that would've been too much. They put it out on the OVO channel, right? Ah. And in a lot of ways, Drake is the internet, right?
[01:00:35] LT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they
[01:00:36] Stephen Greene: put out one line that you can volunteer to come see Drake on the OVO channel, on the label channel. And we were oversubscribed 10X.
We couldn't handle it all coming in. So the artist is the channel now, and that's what's completely changed over the last 20 years of doing this. They are the distribution, and so we think a lot differently about booking and celebrity endorsement than we might've been when we first started.
[01:01:01] LT: That's a great story.
And w- the, the other, the other part of it, though, the other part of the equation, while you have those headwinds, there's tailwinds in this sense, SG, because like you said, 10, 15, 20 years ago, the, the most artists... Or certainly 30 years ago before Napster, right? Most artists saw touring as a way for people to sample to then go buy the music.
Now it's really the opposite. They're making their money, as you said, in touring. But that means the prices for consumers are through the roof, are sky high. So now for you to go volunteer and get a free ticket, there seems to be a lot of p- especially a younger p- people who don't have the disposable income maybe, uh, that a lot of folks do, that seems like a great opportunity.
Am I wrong about that?
[01:01:51] Stephen Greene: Well, for us for sure. I mean, um, I, I don't know how much you've- uh, uh, ingested of the Live Nation trial that's been going on and, um, uh, a lot of stuff has been talked about live pricing. And Michael Rapino, the CEO of Live Nation, says something that really hit me, but he's not wrong.
He's like, "You know how much..." He, he, he makes this case that as much as there's been an inflation in ticket prices, that concert ticket prices are undervalued. Mm-hmm. And he makes this case. Yeah. "You know how much a court-side seat costs at the NBA finals?" Right. "You know how much a 50-yard line seat costs at the Super Bowl?
Why shouldn't the first 10 rows of a Beyoncé concert be this?" Yep. Yep. That we're actually underpricing our product. And I'm not sure if I completely buy into that, but you know, if you're a young person who is probably money poor, cash poor, time rich, I think mo- more efficacy for Rockcorps now than ever, right?
How can I get
[01:02:55] LT: in- Well- ... to see my artist? Just a quick comment on that, Dean, then I'll shut up, shut up. No, yeah. The rules of capitalism, you're right. Like, he, I mean, he's right, actually. The way capitalism works, it's all about supply and demand. There's only a few front row seats, and there's a, and, and there's how many people have a lot of money and they don't care about, about spending the money.
I don't know if you guys saw this. I recently saw a video by Billy Joel. 20 years ago, Billy Joel noticed, this is 20 years ago, it's like these people sitting in the front row, they're like walk, looking at their phone. They don't give a shit. They don't seem like my people, right? And it, what he realized is this is people who could just say they were at the Billy Joel concert in the front row.
Mm-hmm. So you know what Billy Joel did? He stopped selling the front row tickets, and he then told his roadies, "Go into the audience and you bring our best fans and put them in the front row." Mm. Okay? Brilliant, right? Because this again goes to the authen- the au- authenticity of this. And so a very quick ten-second tangent funny part of this is that of course the roadies and Billy Joel's, uh, crew brought very pretty girls to sit in the front row.
Oh, yeah. No doubt. Right? Yeah, no doubt. And Billy Joel's toured with Elton John, and Elton John said, "Hey, I heard, you know, you don't tour in the f- y- you know, you don't sell the front row tickets." And he told him what he d- and Elton John's like, "Oh, brilliant." So when Elton had his roadies come in, they had very, uh, very nice looking men sitting in the front row.
But it's the same concept. Mm.
[01:04:30] Stephen Greene: Well, we do the same thing, LT. I don't know if Billy Joel got it from us or we got it from him, but in our shows we don't distribute the first couple rows, might be two or three- Lovely ... to the volunteer projects, and the night of the gig we go up into the stands and find the craziest people and say, "Hey, here's your upgrade.
Come on down to the front row." That's great. And they're just going nuts the entire time, so- Love it ... yeah, you, you just can't get access like that anymore, and I, I, I guess I'm a romantic. I don't wanna, I don't wanna think of a front row seat at a gig as the same as the 50-yard line of the Super Bowl. I agree.
You know, I want it to be accessible. That's how we grow these communities. I agree with you.
[01:05:11] DC: I've, I've seen, Larry, I've been in the buildings where, uh, we used to call it when we did it together, someone's getting boosted. Yeah. Um, and, and they'd, they'd co- And it, it would be, uh, a thing from the entire time that they were told that they were being boosted 'cause you'd hear this s- this scream, scr- like, "Ah," they'd say.
And then you'd watch them come down the aisle, and people are clapping and yelling, and it's like a, it's, it's a, it's a whole thing. Um, one thing about, uh, technology, I mentioned this before, uh, SG, uh, not, not on this podcast, on another one. I was at the Adobe Summit a few weeks ago in Las Vegas, and it was all about AI, agentic AI.
Agentic AI. And in the morass of all of the tech speak, one of the people said, I believe brilliantly, that there will be a separation of workers with AI, but not what you think. Not a separation of those who know AI and how to use it and those who don't. Although, um, Jensen Huang is famously saying you won't lose your job to AI, you'll lose your job to the person who knows how to use AI.
This person's supposition is that the separation will occur where the people that will do the best will have two attributes that are very difficult, if not impossible now, for AI to replicate: creative judgment and taste.
[01:06:50] LT: Mm.
[01:06:51] DC: Those two. And what Rockcorps has done for now- Mm-hmm ... decades.
[01:06:59] LT: Yep.
[01:06:59] DC: While technology has changed, while more artists now are going out on the road, you all have creative judgment and taste.
[01:07:09] LT: Mm-hmm.
[01:07:09] DC: That will always allow one to have a vibrant business. Those two- Mm-hmm ... those two attributes. Mm. Those two. All right, Larry, shall I take the last one?
[01:07:20] LT: Please do.
[01:07:21] DC: SG, you got a lot to be proud of. What are you most proud of?
[01:07:29] Stephen Greene: Well, uh, for sure, uh, my wife and daughter. There's no question, right?
Everything starts and stops there. Uh- Tam Goodman, Nia Greene now, uh, and our daughter i- is the center of everything. But these, these shows, man, um, you know, I'm just super proud. S- I remember standing there with you in Radio City like it was yesterday, watching Fabulous from the stage and the- Yeah ... three balconies of Radio City-
[01:07:58] LT: Yeah
[01:07:59] Stephen Greene: shaking. Shaking, yes. About 5,000. Y- you know, they don't do big hip hop shows in there like that, right? No, no, no. And watching these young people invited into the living room of New York City to have a big party and celebrate them, I was proud. And then, uh, I think probably same feeling, Royal Albert Hall in London.
Yeah. Seeing that this transferred across- Ah ... the ocean to a new country, it was an incredible feeling. Then we went to Paris, and then in a different language, and seeing how it all worked, it, it made me realize this wasn't something in the head. It's not language that we're talking about. It's below the shoulders.
It's, it's much more of a, a feeling in the heart and in the gut and the soul. So s- seeing it work in a f- in a different language, going to Asia, going to Africa, going to LATAM. Like, I'm just, I'm, I, I... We've done many shows. I can't, I can't pick a favorite. I'm proud of them all. I, I say it's like I've had-- They're each like a ch- a, a child.
They're all my children, and I love them equally, but they're all so different. You know, every, every one of these is different. So I'm just super proud. But it's not, it's not the gigs, it's the, it's the young people, the Xennials that come, get inspired, see what they go on and do, how this is a moment in their lives.
It's just, it, it's an honor to kind of steward this thing along.
[01:09:26] DC: Yeah. Um-
[01:09:29] Stephen Greene: Oh, DC. Yes. You're sitting here. Yes. So I have to mention back, back, back to my wife, um- Yes ... I don't know her without you. This is true. Wow.
[01:09:39] DC: This is true.
[01:09:41] Stephen Greene: So there's that, man. You introduced me to my... You're on the hook for that in all the good ways.
Thank you.
[01:09:48] DC: You're welcome, brother. Now, now, Larry, I didn't know that that was happening. Yeah. Th- th- this, this took place without any of my help. I, I, I just, uh, I just, I was a part of the circumstance that brought them together.
[01:10:05] Stephen Greene: That's right. Yeah. You created the conditions. The
[01:10:07] DC: conditions. Yeah. The conditions.
Yeah. That's right.
[01:10:10] Stephen Greene: We did the rest. That's right, brother. That's awesome.
[01:10:11] DC: Shout Tam. Shout Tam.
[01:10:14] LT: Yeah.
[01:10:16] DC: Uh, uh, lu- lucky to have worked with her for, uh, for many years, at different companies, by the way- Mm ... um, to, to work with Tam. Um, just a f- fantastic person. Um- Advanced thinking, uh, business person. And Larry, you know this, and Brand Nerds, you all know this as well, and for those that don't know it, you'll learn it.
Um, it's hard to do the client side role for an extended period of time. I think it's more difficult to do the agency side-
[01:10:52] LT: Oh, yeah ...
[01:10:53] DC: for an extended period of time. And she has been in the agency game for a minute, and continues to elevate. So mad respect and thanks to Tam.
[01:11:04] Stephen Greene: Best in the biz.
[01:11:06] DC: Best in the biz.
Best in the biz. And knows how to deal with, uh, how do I say this and, and, and be respectful to people like me and you, Larry, and, and, and you, SG? Knows how to deal with, um, men in particular, but also women, but more men, who have healthy egos. She just has a way of, of, uh, of dealing with us in a way where we, we know we are dealing with a peer, if not someone who's above.
In some cases, I think she has to, like, kind of run, run circles around, uh, us, uh, but without ... She- I never felt small-
[01:11:53] LT: Mm-hmm ... talking
[01:11:53] DC: to Tam. Even when she was telling me that what I was thinking and wanted to do was not perhaps the right way to go- Yeah ... I didn't feel diminished. Mm. I felt enlightened.
That's, that's a gift. Yeah, that's a gift. Well,
[01:12:08] LT: well doesn't that make sense to what you said with SG in the opening about he being a multiplier? So of course-
[01:12:15] DC: Yes ...
[01:12:15] LT: his significant other is going to, in essence, be the same
[01:12:18] DC: way. Great point, brother. Of course, right. Great, great point.
[01:12:21] LT: Yeah.
[01:12:22] DC: Yeah. Great point. All right,
[01:12:24] LT: we're at the last, we- we are at the last segment.
DC, SG, what's popping?
[01:12:31] DC: What's
[01:12:31] LT: popping? What's popping? So SG, this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply if there's something happening in and around marketing today that we know is good fodder for discussion and we think you have a good subject for us.
[01:12:44] Stephen Greene: Yeah, I'm just, I'm talking about, you know, the, um, the issue that you talked about earlier, right?
With, um, disinflation and- Yeah ... ticket prices, right? Yeah. And we all know that people, full stop, but young people are craving experiences, right? You were in there at the Do- Adobe Summit. And community. Yeah. And community,
[01:13:09] LT: right?
[01:13:09] Stephen Greene: And we see it now more than ever, right? Yeah. People, give it whatever name you want, touch grass, in person, real life.
Yes. People are hungry- Yes ... to connect because we are finding that we can't AI our way to positive mental health. It can be an aid- Right. Yeah. But it doesn't replace. People are hungry to come together. They're hungry to feel that they have something to contribute. They want to participate in everything that's going on.
They want to have agency. Yeah. So for us, I'm, I'm talking about Rockcorps, we feel, you know the song that, these first 20 years we just spent EQing it- Yeah ... and the real show is just about to begin. As this is a, a concept, a platform, uh, that is super needed. You know, we're working on a couple things, uh, here in Europe and Germany, Sweden, uh, over in Japan, and of course, always eager to get back to the US.
Yeah. So yeah, watch this space. I can't say too much more, but, um, uh, but I think now more than marketers need to think, you know, it's, it's not enough, uh, to make people feel. They have to feel something for themselves, and if we can help them become the version of themselves that they really wanna be, and your brand can help them elevate to that- Mm-hmm
help them contribute, help them participate- Mm-hmm ... you're gonna win. Mm.
[01:14:45] DC: Hear, hear. Larry?
[01:14:49] LT: Uh, yeah, and I love what SG set up, D, because we have children in that space. We do. And so we, we know this space really well, and the pandemic, uh, was such a disruptor- Mm-hmm ... to life in so many ways. And then you have the, and I'm holding up for those who are listening, the good old iPhone, you know, and at simultaneously people just staring at their phones all day.
And so you have something, uh, that what, what Rockcorps does is bringing people together. Like SG said, many people who a- who are, are volunteering do it by themselves. Some people do it with friends, whatever, but all of a sudden, you know, you're raking dirt with people at a, at a community garden, and it's literally and figuratively bringing people together, and that's so needed.
And so if you're, if you're a brand steward working on a brand, brand nerd, somewhere, uh, God, man, whether it's Rockcorps or some other vehicle, if you could be, and your target audience are young people, right? How could you be the facilitator to connect people more? And of course, if your brand can be the impetus or the linchpin or the magnet or some way is involved in that, and, uh, and, and gotta be authentic.
If you could do that, man- Ooh, this is something that will, uh, will serve humanity, will serve, uh, the, your consumer, your target audience, and you'll u- ultimately serve your brand in a huge way. Mm.
[01:16:40] DC: Um, I usually have a perspective I wanna share on this What's Poppin' segment, but after that, Larry, that's kinda like a mic drop, brother. I don't have anything to add.
[01:16:56] LT: Yeah. Yeah. So we at, are we at the close here?
[01:17:01] DC: I think we are, brother.
[01:17:03] LT: All right. So I'm gonna start first, SG. Okay. Um, and what's gonna go down, I'm gonna share my learnings, which are really deep and great.
DC's gonna do his thing. You know the flow. And then we, of course we'll, uh, we'll have you comment on what you've learned from the show and any closing thoughts you have. Um, all right. So, uh, I've got seven. Seven. All right. So as, uh, brand nerds, if you are a seller somehow in this, in the sales part of sponsorship or in the marketing game, when you have something with great value, you need to understand that value and understand that you are not at a disadvantage- Mm-hmm
like SG did originally with Rockcorps. And also, number two, like SG did with DC when he folded his laptop, um, sometimes you need to know when to say no. If you understand your value and you need to say no- Mm ... it's, you, you fold up. That's part of the negotiation. Yeah. Right? Everybody's negotiating. And by the way, DC did his job, too, 'cause what he was also telling SG and Rockcorps is that, "Hey, I don't have a blank check here," okay?
Mm-hmm. And while DC did not let SG leave, that was the impetus to this coming together. So those are really important points. Okay. Uh, the third, number three is I loved what SG said. He talked about inverse correlation. If you are involved- Mm-hmm ... in a property, uh, with brand partnerships, th- they've noticed at Rockcorps if you're having a meeting and dollars come up early, more than likely- That's a good one
the conversation's not gonna go anywhere. More than likely when people don't bring up money right away, when they really wanna understand what this is about, they, they'll, they'll get to the money, but if they're bringing up money early, that just signals they don't understand this really well. Number four, the Grateful Dead were all about authentically serving their community of Deadheads, and notice, brand nerds, SG and his team do the same with Rockcorps.
So the question to you, are you serving your consumers or customers first? That's a question and challenge to you. Number five, with entrepreneurship and with burgeoning companies- You have relationships with people, and you must constantly check in with your colleagues and ensure that communication is always flowing.
Um, and, and, uh, th- this last, this part of the conversation we just had, brand nerds, um, when you're thinking about your brand and how does it play in being a magnet, a connector, a conduit to helping young peop- bring young people together. If you can do that, you're gonna have great commercial success, but you're also gonna be a real positive influence on the world and the universe and beyond.
And last one, number seven. This is not a, a, a learning, but this is a challenge, brand nerds. What can you do in your career where you can blend commerce to help the world? Those are my seven.
[01:20:12] DC: Oh, nice, Larry. And I like that you had seven. Like that number. Uh, SG, you may have heard me say this about guests that are family and friends to Larry and I.
At this part of the podcast, I make a valiant attempt to share with the person in front of me what I think they are bringing to this planet that only they can bring in the way that it can be brought. And it's always difficult for me, uh, SG, LT knows this, with the people I know the best, 'cause I, I know so much about you, SG.
You know so much about me. And I don't, I don't know when or if something will be said or not said but expressed that will have me go, "Oh yeah, I think this is what it, what it is." Um, what I know about this one, this particular, uh, uh, podcast is that I love you, Stephen Greene. Yeah. I, I, I, I love you. Um, I am grateful to the universe and God that our paths crossed during this lifetime.
I'm a better person because of you. So I, I, I, I love you, brother. I, I really- Love you ... really, really do. Um, as you were going through the questions on the five questions, uh, you've said a lot, brother, but th- this one really, um, had me kinda pause to think about what you were saying. And It was the question about the people who are having or who have had the most influence on your, on your life.
What's your mother's name, uh, Larry?
[01:22:31] LT: Arlene.
[01:22:32] DC: I mean, yeah. No, I'm, I'm saying not Larry. Uh, SG, your mother's name.
[01:22:36] Stephen Greene: Sorry. Yeah. Barbara.
[01:22:37] DC: Barbara. Okay, Barbara. So Barbara, you said a pianist? Yes. A public housing executive, and a brand executive, and the pianist is Barbara. And you said for Barbara, music was at the center.
[01:22:54] LT: Mm-hmm.
[01:22:55] DC: In your home, there couldn't be things going on and music be put in the back- background. So in your home it was actually music. It was not Muzak. It was not Muzak. It was music.
[01:23:07] LT: That's right.
[01:23:08] DC: So if y- if she, as a pianist, if she's gonna play, that's gonna be the center. Mm-hmm. If, if, if, if there's going to be some, um, piece of Beethoven played, Ludwig, she's gonna explain this is what's happening.
This is, this is what he was creating. The center. And then your, uh, your stepdad, Lynn. Lyndon was his name? Lyndon. And his public housing and how blended was happening, not public housing as we know it in most of this country. And dare I say lots, lots of places in the world where they say, "All of you all who need help, you live together apart from, separate from the rest of society."
Whereas in Portland, they came together because of the vision of Lynn, and you said he put the people at the center. And then you graciously mentioned me and the standard that we held at Boost Mobile and our maniacal focus on quality, and you said you learned from me quality is at the cen- is at the center.
So we have music at the center, Barbara. We have people at the center, Lynn. And then we have quality at the center, me. Now notice, Larry, th- this is where you get lessons from geniuses, and I consider SG to be a genius.
[01:24:40] LT: Yes.
[01:24:42] DC: He mentioned the one word that was at the center. He didn't mention two words or three or s- There was no list.
There was one word that he mentioned for Barbara, Lynn, and me. This can be correlated to brands and business. Apple, what's at the center? Design. Nike, what's at the center? As Charles Barkley would say, "The athlete." Patagonia, what's at the center? Planet. Planet. Disney, what's at, what's at the center? Family.
Family. In-N-Out Burger, which I hadn't had until I came out to LA, what's at the center? I would say quality. Each of these, one word. One word. So SG, the lesson that you've given to me, Larry, and the Brand Nerds, is to be able to answer the question, what's at the center? And it's one thing. If it's done well, it's one thing.
So then I started to, to think about, "Okay, man, this is like, this is pretty heavy." We, we have in our business, uh, SG, a phrase where we talk about sacrifice, the need to sacrifice. It's the first commandment of our 10 of great brands. You have found a way to do that in how you explain the influences, and you've done that throughout your career.
I don't know whether it was consciously doing it or not, and it's the secret of the greatest brands. But then when you answered the question, "What are you most proud of?" You talked about the show in, at Radio City Music Hall, the first one in New York, Royal Albert Hall, and then you said, "You know what?
It's hard to pick. They're all like children. I, I, I, I can't, I can't pick one." And then I'm sitting here thinking, "Okay, center. Mother, stepdad, and boy. One word, center." And then I went, "Ah, ah. Okay." It's coming together for me now. Um, what's your daughter's name, for the Brand Nerds? Sage. Brand, Brand Nerds, uh, Stephen said Sage.
Okay. I don't think that her name is a coincidence at all. I think Sage as a name, you and Tam naming your daughter Sage, actually has layers that all point to center. So sage is, on one hand, an herb, and it's g- it goes back centuries. Centuries. And when people burn sage, I remember Phil Jackson used to do this- Yeah
in the lockers and all that. Why was he doing that? He wanted to bring his athletes back to center. Another definition of sage, wise. The wise one. Wisdom. And you cannot, you cannot make it in this world, at least at the highest level, unless you have some wisdom about your center. Your center. And then the root word itself, discernment.
Discernment. The ability to judge well. Oftentimes when there's noise going on, we can't make decisions, not the best decisions. But when we center ourselves, we are able to make the best decisions. So I'll wrap all this up. I wrote this down, that I think you, SG, are the keeper of humanity at the center.
[01:29:20] LT: Mm-hmm.
[01:29:25] DC: Yeah.
[01:29:26] Stephen Greene: My brother.
[01:29:27] DC: Yeah. Yeah, brother. I think that's you, man.
[01:29:34] LT: That's awesome.
Yeah. All right, SG. I'm letting that... We'll let that bake in with you for a bit, 'cause as, as DC does, right? DC does.
[01:29:47] Stephen Greene: Yeah. I've watched him do it around the world, LT. And he destroys those rooms. Exactly. Uh, uh, from that first 20 minutes to, to a lifetime of collaborating, and I love you too, brother. Um, y- you're such a huge part of my life.
The only problem with our relationship is there's not enough of it, right? Yeah. And, uh, we, we miss you terribly here in London. We're happy to... We, we got a little run here in the UK a few years back- We did ... and that was awesome to have you over here and- It was, yeah ... s- they still talk about you here in those, uh, in those marketing meetings.
You know, like- ... uh, who is this guy? He'd come in and describe '90s New York rap and explain to them how to market this new brand, and i- it all made perfect sense, you know? These, these English people were like, "What is happening here in the
[01:30:36] LT: office?"
[01:30:37] Stephen Greene: So. It's funny. I love you too, brother. I, um, we've done so much good, but I have to say one thing.
It's, I think it's so incredible, um, that you guys put all this stuff out, so shout out to you. You've... I, I don't know how many you've done. You mentioned a couple hundred, that all this is available for anybody for free to listen to. Mm-hmm. I learned so much over the years listening to DC, that you put it down.
Now you and LT are doing this- You got this fantastic producer, Jade. Uh, thank you for all of us who benefit from it, for putting all this content out, just available for people. I think it's incredible, and I know it's a slog making that schedule, the production, the whole thing. So, uh, from the audience, thank you.
Thank you guys for doing it. And, you know, thank you for, um, helping me to sort of amalgamate a few things in my life that I knew were true already. You know, I remember those first volunteer projects we were doing with Boost Mobile in, in, you know, tough neighborhoods in- Yeah ... in Brooklyn. Not Williamsburg, not Fort Greene, you know- Yeah, yeah
where places have, people have real stress. Yeah. Uh, um, in, in ... And you can find it in all five boroughs. A little harder in Manhattan. Oh, yeah. You can find it. Yeah. You can find it, yeah. Um, real stress. And you taught us really early on that everybody is worthy of our respect and our love. No matter who you are, when you show up- Yeah
everybody's treated the same, and you put a quality mark on Rockcorps that we've tried to maintain ever since. So thank you for setting that bar. It's had a huge impact around the world, so app- appreciate you and, you know, I, I, I can't believe we're, we're done talking already 'cause I could, you know- I know
just want to roll around all the time. I- We've got stories, DC, but, uh, thank you so much. Well- And I, I've learned so much from, from you over the years, so it, it's just, um, it's a real pleasure to kind of revisit some of those and, and, and talk in a way that I only can with you. Love you too. Thanks.
[01:32:41] LT: Well, SG, that's awesome.
We'll have to have you back, though. Honestly, I think that there's a, there's ... We're, we're gonna create some more reason to have you back, um, which, uh, which will be awesome. So thank you, thank you. We can't ... Y- you're, uh, you're the multiplier and, uh, and everything that you are that DC said, uh, you know, in, in the center as, as DC perfectly put.
So I think that's a wrap. Uh, Jay, we're gonna go to the show close here with- Can, can we just
[01:33:12] DC: do this real quick, Larry? I'm sorry to- Sure. Sure ... stop the show close. I would be remiss if I did not shout out Kat and Alex and, uh, and our boy Tremble, who, who has also been- Yes ... o- on our podcast. These are folks who have also been instrumental in the building and expansion of, of, of Rockcorps.
So I, I wanna shout them out, uh, as well.
[01:33:39] LT: Thank you. I'm so
[01:33:39] DC: glad you did that. Yeah. Thank you for doing that.
[01:33:40] LT: Family.
[01:33:41] DC: Cool.
[01:33:42] LT: All right, we're gonna go to the show close here. Uh, Brand Nerds, thank you so much for listening to Brands Beats and Bytes. The executive producers of Brands Beats and Bytes are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Tammen, Jay Tate, and Tom Di Oro
[01:33:55] DC: The Pod Father.
[01:33:59] LT: And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share. And for those on Apple Podcasts, if you are so inclined, we love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed the podcast, and we look forward to next time, where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.