The Marriage365 Podcast

Do you feel like you can’t bring anything up to your spouse without them getting defensive? Or maybe you’re the one who gets defensive, even when your spouse is simply trying to share how they feel. If you’re tired of feeling criticized, misunderstood, or constantly needing to explain yourself, this episode is for you. You don’t have to agree with everything your spouse says to stop treating their concerns like an attack.

Resources in this episode:
- Grab a copy of our book The Marriage Habit.
- Learn about The Code Word technique and how to use it.
- Book a coaching session with Casey, Meygan, or one of the Marriage365 coaches here.
- Get access to videos, worksheets, challenges, and more free resources in Marriage365 membership.

Want more practical tools for your marriage? Follow Marriage365 on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube.

Creators and Guests

Host
Casey Caston
Host
Meygan Caston

What is The Marriage365 Podcast?

The Marriage365 Podcast is hosted by marriage coaches Casey and Meygan Caston, who share honest conversations and practical tools you can use in your relationship today. Each episode is designed to help you communicate better, work through conflict, rebuild trust, deepen intimacy, and feel connected again.

Whether your marriage is thriving, struggling, or stuck in the roommate phase, you’ll walk away with clear, practical steps toward a healthier, stronger marriage.

Because a great marriage doesn’t happen by accident. It’s built one choice, one conversation, and one day at a time.

Meygan:

Welcome to part two on covering the topic of defensiveness. We did a deep dive on defining what it is, what it looks like, and the reason behind why your spouse gets defensive in part one. But in this episode, we're going to share the dos and don'ts when your spouse gets defensive so you know exactly how to handle it in the healthiest way possible.

Casey:

Welcome to the Marriage365 Podcast. We're your hosts Casey and Meygan Caston, and we're going to give you clarity and practical next steps so that you can experience the joy of connection and the confidence needed to have a great marriage. You know, marriage is like two people dancing together. So let's say it's the tango. Right?

Casey:

As one partner moves to left, the other partner responds in kind and also moves to the left. Now, like in professional dancers, know, they they anticipate their move because they've memorized that dance and so they float along the dance floor and it's really graceful. Right? Well, imagine if midway through the dance, the lead dancer changes the dance and starts doing a ballet. Right?

Casey:

That other partner can't continue the tango. They would they would literally have to change. Mhmm. Or they'd freak out and go like, what are you doing? Well, marriage is like a dance.

Casey:

And when you change your behavior, your partner has to respond. This is why one of the foundational truths at Marriage365 is if you want to make a better marriage.

Meygan:

Make a better you.

Casey:

There you go, babe. If you wanna make a better marriage, make a better you. And it's science, literally it's science. Systems change theory says that when you change one part of the system, the whole system qualitatively has to change. So in this episode, we we actually wanna give you ways that you can change the dance.

Casey:

You can stop this toxic cycle because defensiveness is a core predictor that signals that the relationship is imperil. I mean, is the check warning, the check engine warning light on your dashboard.

Meygan:

Warning, warning, warning.

Casey:

Yeah. So we're gonna give you ways that you can change up the behavior. Again, systems change there, you change one part of the system, the whole system changes. So we wanna just give you hope like if you're listening to this alone, your partner's not participating in your marriage. I wanna tell you and I wanna empower you, you have more power over your relationship than you think.

Meygan:

It's so true.

Casey:

You you have the power to change your marriage.

Meygan:

Yeah. Your response to your spouse's defensiveness can either hurt or it can make things worse or you can rise above it and actually change that dance. And that's what I love about it. So let's talk about some do's and don'ts when your spouse is being defensive. All right.

Meygan:

You ready, babe?

Casey:

Yep.

Meygan:

Okay. The first don't. Don't point out their defensiveness. I know it sounds obvious, but we all do this. You're being defensive.

Meygan:

Oh, there you go again. You're so guilty. Don't play the victim. Okay. Even if it's completely obvious that your spouse is being defensive, Pointing it out is only going to escalate their defensiveness.

Casey:

Yeah. That's like the, you're crazy.

Meygan:

Yeah. That's not going to make someone feel not crazy. Oh,

Casey:

thank you for pointing that out.

Meygan:

Yeah. So please calm down. Not point out their defensiveness even if it's so obvious.

Casey:

We don't want you to engage if your spouse is emotionally flooded. In part one, we actually talked about flooding and what's happening in your body. Blood is draining from your brain to prepare the body for the fight. That means this person is no longer listening or checking in with themselves.

Meygan:

Or problem solving or able to empathize. They're emotionally flooded. Another word we use is triggered. No good comes from any conversation when your partner or your spouse is charged emotionally flooded. And we also, we don't want you to communicate via text.

Meygan:

This one seems very obvious, but texting is the worst way to handle conflict because you can't hear their tone. You can't see their nonverbal. It just helps create a boundary for yourself that you're not willing to have conflict and go back and forth on a text message.

Casey:

And we are seeing this more and more with couples is that they're trying to solve their problems with a text.

Meygan:

Or they're trying to fight and defend themselves on a text message. And here's the other thing. Then we're sent screenshots, right babe? Screenshots of, wow, that was a really defensive response. Oh, and then I said this, it's like it's there forever.

Meygan:

And so we would say the best way to combat this is send one text message that says, I know this is an important conversation I want to have with you, but this needs to be an in person conversation.

Casey:

Babe, are you hiding a do in your don't?

Meygan:

Oh, you caught That's a no no. I know. But listen, it just texting is just not the place to engage with someone that's being defensive. Rise above it. Don't engage in the texting.

Casey:

And finally, don't get defensive yourself. This will start the crazy cycle of back and forth fighting. Your spouse is getting defensive and then you get defensive right back at them. You can't get mad at them for being defensive if you are also being defensive. So remember that dance analogy, you can stop the toxic tango, don't engage with them.

Meygan:

All right. Can we transition now to the dues?

Casey:

The do dues.

Meygan:

Okay. All right. Do figure out the reason that you believe your spouse is being defensive. So this is why we want to make sure you listen to part one, because we really did a deep dive where we walked you through several reasons why your spouse is defensive. A couple of examples we talked about, they don't want the consequence.

Meygan:

They think that they did nothing wrong. All right? So knowing the why your spouse is acting the way they are can actually help you process what the next step is. And listen to this, There's always a why behind your spouse's behavior. They're not being defensive for just no reason.

Meygan:

There's always a why.

Casey:

I love that idea of just being more spousal aware.

Meygan:

Be spousal aware, not just self aware, but spousal aware.

Casey:

Alright. Do choose the right time and place. Okay. Timing and environment matter. You need to choose a time and a place where both of you can focus on the conversation, the topic at hand without distractions.

Casey:

Okay. So this isn't, we need to talk about our budget in the middle of parenting or bedtime. This isn't like, okay, it's 11:00 at night. Let's talk about the way we talk to each other today or on the way to work or when you're, you know, out the door in the middle of transitioning from one activity to the next. You really have to set aside time where both of you will be in the right headspace.

Casey:

We're not triggered. Mhmm. We're, you know, speaking in love and having a positive attitude.

Meygan:

I've learned a couple of things about us. It's never good anything after 9PM. It's not good when you're hangry. Because you get hangry, so I can't bring up anything when when you're hangry, you need food in your belly. And I also have taken personal responsibility to realities and check my own attitude.

Meygan:

Do I have a positive attitude going into this conversation? Because if, if you feel my negative energy, I noticed you can get defensive pretty quickly. So I really have to own my own. Where, where am I at? Where's my head space at?

Meygan:

All right. I love talking about this do. Oh, I love coaching women and men on this do. This is such a fantastic one. Get curious by asking questions.

Meygan:

This provides an opportunity to try and understand your husband or your wife's perspective and how they're seeing the situation. So say things like, tell me more. Wow. It sounds like you're feeling frustrated. Is that correct?

Meygan:

Help me understand what upset you. Hey, listen. I can sense that you're really hurt, and I wanna understand what you're feeling. What is it that you need from me in this moment? Memorize these, you guys.

Meygan:

Tell me more. What is it that you need from me in this moment? Memorize one of those. Stay calm, stay curious. This is genuinely empathy and action.

Meygan:

You're rather than just letting your spouse get defensive. Their defensiveness is telling a story. Stop, lean in, get curious, enter into their world. And hopefully, by you getting curious, it will bring down their defensiveness, just seeing that you're trying to to listen to them and that you care about them. And then, babe, I was gonna actually tell you, I just had a session a couple weeks ago where I had a major praise report from the wife.

Meygan:

The husband was getting defensive every single time that they would talk about his family, which we've heard a lot of in law issues, right? About with lots of couples we coach come to find out that through the wife asking him questions, his family has been bombarding him with these mean text messages, making him feel very ashamed and guilty. You're not a great son. We wish you came around more. Very manipulative texts.

Meygan:

They've been doing this for years and she had no idea. And so just by her, the homework I gave her was get curious. Something's going on with your husband around his family. He finally said, babe, I look at these text messages and they cried and they made up and he's recognizing no wonder why I was getting defensive.

Casey:

Yeah. I love using in coaching settings. I love using the scale of one to 10 of saying, hey, scale one to 10, how important is this to you? This is another way to get curious with your partner where you're getting some data points on... Tell me this...

Casey:

It's almost like tell me the story you're telling yourself. Mhmm. In coaching, we talk a lot about mindsets that, know, we live out the story that we're telling ourselves. There's a script that's going on that's saying something about what's what's true about me in the world that I... They live in.

Casey:

Lot of couples when there's anger and resentment at play, that kind of fouls up the story.

Meygan:

Yeah. It's more of a negative tainted story.

Casey:

So getting curious helps us understand like what's the story that you're telling yourself that's getting played out? Like, why do you... What do you feel like I'm attacking you if I'm not attacking you?

Meygan:

Yeah. And just by getting curious, it's such a sign of maturity and emotional intelligence because if we all did this with anyone that was sitting across from us that got defensive, I think a lot of us would feel that we don't have to continue to be defensive. This is a great tactic that typically, not all the time, but typically brings defenses down by a spouse.

Casey:

Do take responsibility for your actions. In every situation you have 100 control over yourself and how you respond. So you know, you're taking responsibility, you're taking ownership and honestly if you do that in the midst of your spouse being defensive, it's gonna lower the temperature, you know, saying things like, you know what, you're right. I have been really controlling and I can feel that or you're right. I've been on my phone too much.

Casey:

All of a sudden again, it's changing the dance up where they're like, oh, I don't have to be defensive anymore. And this is the opposite of blame, right? This is, you know, I'm going to show up healthy. I'm going to be accountable for my actions.

Meygan:

It's also leading by example and modeling healthy behavior. If you're wanting your defensive spouse to hold themselves accountable at some point, guess who needs to go first? Because you're listening to this, you do. And that's why I feel like we just need to make sure that we're doing what we're asking our spouse to do. Lead by example, model that for them.

Casey:

I love that. That modeling healthy behavior makes me think about our marriage when we were... The first three years were horrible. We're both horrible to each other. Yelling, screaming and fighting.

Casey:

And then you stopped.

Meygan:

I changed the dance.

Casey:

You did change the dance.

Meygan:

I was tired of the tango.

Casey:

I I'll I'll never forget when you had finally admitted to me, wow, you know what Casey, I am very controlling and my words, I remember telling you so many times. I feel like your words like this big huge sword and you just like slash me up and you're like, you know what? You're right.

Meygan:

I I could see your perspective. You're you're right.

Casey:

I was like, what was I supposed to do with that?

Meygan:

You didn't get defensive in that moment because

Casey:

What?

Meygan:

What was there to defend? Yeah. And it felt really good, didn't it? I admitted that I hurt you. And so this is again, a tactic we're trying to teach you tactics, things to do and not to do to help lower defensives from both of you and being able to be responsible and accountable is so mature.

Meygan:

And I'm gonna even say the word sexy in my personal opinion, that if someone can just go, you know what? I kind of came at this conversation and I had a lot of heat behind me. I I used some harsh words. Let me let me start that again. I was wrong.

Meygan:

Oh, that is gonna lower defenses.

Casey:

And you know what you're doing in that moment? You're actually validating your spouse.

Meygan:

Which is gonna feel so good.

Casey:

Yeah. Because they're gonna like, oh, okay. So, you know, it just diffuses everything.

Meygan:

All right. I also am going to say, try to see them through the eyes of compassion. At the end of the day, your spouse is a human being. Hurt people hurt people. Someone who is being defensive.

Meygan:

There is a very good chance that under that defensiveness, there is a big pain, a feeling and emotion happening, a struggle, even if they can't articulate it to you because them trying to articulate it is unfortunately coming out as defensiveness. And so understanding their perspective can really help diffuse defensiveness. And, you know, sometimes their defensive nature, their response has little or nothing even to do with you. And it has everything to do with something that's going on in their own life. So just remember that her people, her people, compassion is my husband and my wife.

Meygan:

They are not the enemy. There are good things about this person. And I want to try to see them through the eyes of compassion and empathy.

Casey:

This is a struggle for a lot of couples. If there's anger and resentment building up, we keep coming back to the fact that resentment and unforgiveness clogs the gears with sand and it makes things really, really hard. So it's very hard if you're hurting and your spouse is not validating your hurt to then take their perspective.

Meygan:

I'm gonna add a little mini do to this. If you are struggling to even see your spouse through the eyes of compassion because you have so much resentment, do meet with one of our coaches. Okay.

Casey:

That's a mini duty.

Meygan:

A mini do.

Casey:

Mini do. Doody. This reminds me of Friends, Chandler.

Meygan:

Chandler Bing.

Casey:

Doo. You're gonna have a lot of doodies. Doo? Doo doo doo doo doo. Poop.

Casey:

Wait. The interview's over. Right?

Meygan:

Sorry. If you haven't watched Friends, you have no idea what we're talking about. But if you have, you're laughing with us, I'm sure.

Casey:

Okay. Do call an adult time out. And this is where we're gonna bring up the code word. The code word is such a valuable tool for couples that where they're in that process of rebuilding trust in their relationship and they're they're constantly kinda getting into these fights and these negative experiences in their relationship. The code word kinda cuts that off.

Casey:

When one of you is flooded, if you notice yourself or your spouse, you're calling out a code word. Ours is Chaz needs a walk.

Meygan:

Technically, it's a code phrase, but yes.

Casey:

Yeah. Well, it's just a random word that is... Has maybe some positive memories like Humphries yogurt was one of ours for a while. That was where we first met. And we we agreed as a couple, we said, we throw out Humphries yogurt, this means one of us is flooded.

Casey:

The next things that are gonna be said will be said out of hurt and it's going to harm our relationship. So in order to protect ourselves and our relationship and protect the trust, and we were rebuilding trust with each other and nurturing that connection, we're gonna take a break.

Meygan:

Everybody needs a break.

Casey:

Right? Especially if you're flooded, you're becoming defensive.

Meygan:

If your spouse is being defensive, I can tell you right now, don't continue the conversation. It's really difficult. If they're getting more and more defensive, they're getting louder, they're getting, you know, they're justifying more. You're going to get to a place where like, we just can't continue. That's exactly why you have to do the code word.

Casey:

Well, that's why we said in the don'ts is don't engage if someone is emotionally flooded.

Meygan:

Correct.

Casey:

Because they're not in a space to listen or work through things. So the code word protects the con... The connection that you have. So Meygan and I oftentimes in coaching will draw, you know, communication is what every couple does. Then it turns into conflict where maybe we disagree about the way we need to go about doing things, whether it's the dishwasher to parenting.

Casey:

Couples will then take that as a personal attack, They become defensive and they move from conflict, which is healthy, into a place that's combat.

Meygan:

Which is unhealthy.

Casey:

Which is an unhealthy place because now we're attacking each other.

Meygan:

We're breaking all the rules. This is a silent treatment. This is blaming, shaming, pointing fingers. Sometimes people will slam doors, Threatening divorce, threatening divorce, following each other around the house, making claims, bringing up 50 things that your spouse has done wrong. This is when we're, we're really hurting the marriage.

Meygan:

So the code word is a protection, but the key to the code word is this. You need to take a break and we would say no less than twenty minutes. That's what science shows is needed for you to kind of get back to a healthy state, but also no longer than twenty four hours. So if it's 10:00 at night, I... We're gonna tell you just sleep on it and talk about it in the morning.

Meygan:

But then sometimes depending upon schedules and kids, whatever, you can't talk about it until the next day. And that's okay. But twenty... No, no less than twenty minutes. Don't engage.

Meygan:

Wait at least twenty minutes, but no longer than twenty four hours. This is not take a break, take an adult time out, and talk about it in five days. Absolutely not. Because then what people do is if they say the code word, the avoiders will be like, sweet, I get out of this conversation. No.

Meygan:

It... You still have to talk about what the real issue was.

Casey:

And I would make an agreement between you and your spouse, like whoever calls the code word should then either text or communicate, hey, are we ready to talk about this again?

Meygan:

You have to be the one to first initiate if you're the one that called the code word. So if I say, Chaz needs a walk, then I wait twenty minutes. For Casey and I, we know twenty minutes isn't enough. For us, it's about one to two hours. We've we've learned this through time and through trial and error.

Meygan:

And then I would send them a text to say, hey, listen, I'm ready to talk about this in a loving way whenever you are. And now the ball is in that spouse's court. But this is a wonderful tactic. We explain this in-depth in our book, The Marriage Habit, which you can find at any bookstore, Amazon, Walmart, Barnes and Noble. It's it's it is one of the habits we, we talk about.

Meygan:

That's kind of gone viral. People are like, wow, how did we not know about this? And what I love about the code word is that it can be used with teenagers. So if you have, if you are parenting teenagers, you do not need to get on that emotional roller coaster. It is wonderful with family members that are very difficult, but it is such a beautiful boundary and healthy tactic that when someone is being defensive and they're not letting go of that defensiveness, you don't engage and how you do that is you do the code word.

Casey:

In order to really implement the code word, you also need to have a conversation with your spouse beforehand to set the ground rules. Right? This isn't just in the middle of the fight, I'm dropping the code word and your spouse is like, what is this?

Meygan:

What is Chaz needs

Casey:

a walk? It's the code word, babe. They'd be like, what are we doing?

Meygan:

Good point. You have to talk about this before or ahead of What would your advice be for someone listening that says, my husband or my wife would never even talk about a code word. So what would you say to that person?

Casey:

Well, first of all, I'd say that's a really hard place to be in and it's hard because you're the one that's trying to implement tools and healthy relationship behavior and your spouse won't participate. Second, I would say just rise above it and blame yourself. Say, hey, I don't feel like I'm in a good space right now to be able to continue this conversation. I'm gonna take a break. And if that doesn't work, I would say it would be time to see a coach because there are several strategies in working to diffuse the relationship and and create openness really for your partner to hear, you know, new ways forward.

Meygan:

I love that. That's great advice. Hey, I've got another do, Do keep it in the eye, and I'm not talking eyeball. I'm talking about the way that you are talking. So we tend to say you always, you never.

Meygan:

The moment you say you, and if you're a point finger person and you do it with your finger as well, or your body language, you are going to make anyone defensive. Alright? And so you have to pay attention to how you're saying it and the words coming out of your mouth. So stay away from like you always, you never, they're going to feel attacked. Instead use I.

Meygan:

I feel, I need, I wanted this. And we call those soft startups. And we have an incredible worksheet in our membership and our Marriage365 membership, where we give you word for word examples of soft startups. And for anyone like me, who's kind of more of a fighter and strong personality, and can kind of we call it coming in hot. This is a big growth area for you, big growth area for me, use soft startups.

Casey:

We actually had an episode on the first ten seconds. How you start the conversation can make or break your communication. So when you start with a you, that's first ten seconds is... It's gonna go sideways you. Alright.

Casey:

Do offer solutions. And this is something I I love doing with coaching clients is rather than attacking the problem, we we really want to find and there's so many different strategies or different ways to help a partner open up to learning or to handle finances or deal with parenting. But oftentimes we're in a place that we're, you know, pissed off with each other. We're not really like in problem solving mode.

Meygan:

It's hard or if you have a lot of resentment.

Casey:

Oh yeah.

Meygan:

Or we just say things like, well just don't do this anymore. Can you stop being on your phone? And you're like, well, That's not really offering a solution.

Casey:

Yeah. So for example, it... Don't say you suck at communication.

Meygan:

That would make me feel very defensive

Casey:

if

Meygan:

you So said

Casey:

instead, it could be like, hey, can we watch some videos in Marriage365 membership and learn how communicate in a healthy way?

Meygan:

That is offering up a solution. I love that. Or I I have seen couples say things like, oh my gosh, you can be so lazy. And while that might be true, it's going to make someone feel defensive. So instead say something like, listen, I would love for us to brainstorm ways on how to share the household chores.

Meygan:

So it just feels more fair. See the difference between that?

Casey:

The one that comes up often for me is you're always on your phone. Oh. Mhmm. There's a there's a you. You're always on your phone.

Meygan:

And there's an absolute always.

Casey:

Yes. There's an absolute, that's right. Not technically always on my phone. Yes. Unless they're a teenager.

Casey:

Oh. But there's a way to be able to say, hey, let's offer a solution. I miss you. I feel like your phone's being a distraction. Can we come up with some tech boundaries to make sure we spend time together?

Meygan:

I I love this one so much. And again, I agree with you, Casey. I think if you have resentment, it's very difficult to come to the conversation with an open mind, brainstorm, collaborative kind of mindset, but it is effective, especially for men, for fixers. I'm a fixer. I'm the fixer in the marriage.

Meygan:

I want often solutions. I don't wanna keep fighting about the same things over and over again. So rather than talk about let's not do this, let's stop doing this. You're the problem. What about it's like, hey, let's find a solution that we can find together.

Casey:

It's teamwork. It's teamwork. So beautiful. You know what? I have one last final do.

Casey:

And I realized it wasn't in our notes.

Meygan:

Oh, what is it?

Casey:

Do apologize. You know, and I I coach a lot of people always of like find something, anything. It could be something very small but just to apologize to your spouse is a great way to lower defenses. I coach all the time to do this. And I'm usually helping them figure out like, what can I apologize for?

Meygan:

Well, a great question to ask yourself is when was the last time you apologized to your spouse? And if you can't remember, or if you're like, well, did yesterday. Was it, you know, a half assed apology? Or was it genuine?

Casey:

Well, another chapter in our book, The Marriage Habit, we talk about the power of an unsolicited apology.

Meygan:

Coming out of nowhere. It's not prompted even though technically we're prompting you right now to do it.

Casey:

Well, but think about it. I need an apology for how much time you've on your phone. I'm sorry. I was on my phone.

Meygan:

Like does that... It just doesn't seem as genuine.

Casey:

Doesn't feel like, oh, it doesn't give me the warm fuzzies. But when you walk up to your partner and you just say, hey, I I need to tell you, I've been thinking about my phone usage and it's gotten a little out of hand. I just wanna apologize because that must make you feel like I don't care about you. I mean, that would lower defenses.

Meygan:

So quickly. Who doesn't want to be apologized to? Especially use our four step apology method. It is the most effective method in our opinion. So what I want to share is this.

Meygan:

Every study that's been done, and there's been a lot of studies and research on defensiveness. Here's what you need to know. Do not live in La la land place. There is a ninety percent chance of divorce if this is not corrected. This is this is really serious.

Meygan:

Defensiveness destroys trust, which is foundational. Trust is more important than love. So every time you or your spouse gets defensive, you are rupturing the marriage and you are breaking trust. And so the opposite of defensiveness is taking responsibility, which is empowering. I can control myself.

Meygan:

I can have a positive impact on my marriage with or without my husband or my wife. I can have a great day in spite of what's happening around me. I get to dictate my attitude in the way I show up in my relationship.

Casey:

Which is why we wanna end with our core foundational message. If you want to make a better marriage, it starts by making a better you. This is a message of empowerment that you can work on yourself and you can change your life.

Meygan:

So that's the do's and don'ts of dealing with defensiveness in your marriage. And if you caught part one and part two, you now have a real roadmap. But here's what we want you to walk away with. Knowing the do's and don'ts is one thing. Actually changing a pattern that's been running your marriage for years.

Meygan:

That's a different level of work. If you listen to this and thought that's us, that's exactly what happens every single time we try to talk. You don't have to figure this out alone. This is the kind of pattern we work through with couples every day in coaching and for couples who are really stuck in our two day marriage intensives, where we've seen a ninety percent success rate helping couples break cycles just like this one. So head to marriage365.com and check out our coaching options.

Meygan:

Bring your spouse into this. Lower the defenses together with someone in your corner who can help you do it. Until next time, we're rooting for your marriage.