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What happens when life puts obstacles in your way that you just have to tackle? Turns out three Rugby League icons might be able to help.
Making it in elite sport, staring down the competition, overcoming challenges in the game and in life after rugby, Adrian Morley, Shaun Lunt, and Barrie McDermott know what it takes to keep moving forward. From the highs of big wins to the tough calls of retirement, Changing Rooms is about what happens when the final whistle blows — and how lessons from Rugby League translate into resilience, growth, and finding a new path.
The conversations are raw and no-filter — stories of comebacks, transitions, and big turning points that show what it really takes to adapt when everything changes. They’re perfect for young people facing life transitions from education to work, fans of sport seeking insight beyond the game, or anyone navigating career or personal change.
Join us as we swap stories from the pitch and beyond, and share the lessons, laughs, and honest truths that can help you figure out your own next move. Whether you’re looking for resilience strategies or just some inspiration from people who’ve been there, you’ll get insights that reach further than the game — from the Changing Rooms Squad.
About the Hosts
Adrian Morley
Adrian was never just tough — he was one of the most feared forwards in Rugby League, the first British player to win both NRL (National Rugby League) and Super League titles, and a leader who thrived in the biggest moments. After years at the very top, he knows what it means to push through pressure, face down setbacks, and then figure out who you are when the roar of the crowd fades.
Shaun Lunt
Shaun’s career had it all — Grand Final wins, England caps, and the highs and lows of playing for some of the biggest clubs in the game. But he’s also been brutally honest about injuries, mental health, and the personal battles that shaped him. Now, he brings that same openness to coaching and mentoring, offering lessons on resilience and reinvention that hit home well beyond sport.
Barrie McDermott
Barrie built his reputation as one of Rugby League’s fiercest enforcers, a no-nonsense presence for Leeds Rhinos and Great Britain. Since hanging up his boots, he’s carved out a second career in broadcasting, combining sharp analysis with the same humour and straight talk he was known for on the pitch. Barrie’s story is about toughness, loyalty, and how to evolve when one chapter ends and another begins.
Barrie McDermott:
Welcome to Changing Rooms, brought to you by our good friends at Elect. Where a few of us ex-pros bring you stories from the pitch and beyond. I'm Barrie McDermott, I will be joined every week by Adrian Morley and Shaun Lunt, legends, mates, and proof that life after rugby is full of lessons, laughs, and the odd knock-on along the way. Together we talk about challenges, change, and what keeps us moving forward, on the field, at work, and in life. So let's get stuck in. Hello and welcome back to Changing Rooms, brought to you by our good friends at Elect. It's our last episode, our sixth and final episode of the first series. Moz, have you enjoyed it? Loved it?
Adrian Morley:
I've loved it. Yeah, yeah, it's been great. It's been different. It's been great reminiscing about the career and hopefully getting a few points across.
Shaun Lunt:
Yeah, it's been great, especially listening to stories, obviously I've watched you two play many a time, so sat here listening to you two has been really enlightening.
Barrie McDermott:
And if it was normal practice at the end of the season, we would be in fancy dress. Although, I think Moz is in fancy dress with that (bleep) shirt he's got on.
Adrian Morley:
Yeah, very good, Baz, very good.
Barrie McDermott:
Today's about mentors and coaches, and people who've had an influence on us because we've had some good ones, we've had some bad ones, everything in between. Some coaches have a way with words and sometimes those words are loud and forceful. Nicknamed the hair dryer moment after Sir Alex Ferguson. Did you ever have a hair dryer moment, Moz?
Adrian Morley:
I didn't actually, I don't know if it was because I was too good and never made a mistake, or the coaches were just scared of me, but-
Shaun Lunt:
I think the second one, I think the second.
Adrian Morley:
Yeah, never had a moment. Obviously coaches get mad, but it was always a collective shouting rather than that far from me face, it wouldn't have been a nice situation that.
Barrie McDermott:
Lunty?
Shaun Lunt:
Yes, I have. It wasn't so much of a hair dryer moment in terms of what people think of getting sprayed in your face, but-
Barrie McDermott:
Is that before or after Turkey, the hair dryer moment?
Shaun Lunt:
Yeah, that was before.
Barrie McDermott:
Oh, okay.
Shaun Lunt:
That's what took it all off, yes. So, yeah, it was Nathan Brown, and obviously he came over in 2009, and we used to do video after games, and obviously we all know you can never sleep after the game, can you? So, you've been up all night, and then what you do is you go into a video session. And then what Nathan Brown used to do, I don't think he realized it, but when he was on his laptop, he wouldn't put the full screen on the projector, so you'd actually see what he's typed in. And if you'd see your name up there, you'd be like, oh, I'm going to get it here. And obviously everyone's there, and I remember we were playing Wigan, and they kicked it over, and Sean O'Loughlin jumped up, patted the ball back, and Josh Hanley picked it up and scored.
Well, he never let me forget that. For two years after that moment, he kept on bringing it up in video, and I was just like, "Are you ever going to let this drop?" And that's always stuck with me, and I think that's had a big impact on me, again, never clocking off. So even though it was a very uncomfortable moment for myself, it's had a long-lasting effect on me and what I do.
Barrie McDermott:
It doesn't always have to be loud, does it? Sometimes it can be very venomous, vicious, and violent with the softest of tones. My first coach was a guy called Peter Tunks, at Oldham, and I'd played two games in the first team, dropped down to the A-team, and played on a Thursday night away at St. Helens. Feeling good about myself, because I've got a couple of first team appearances under my belt, and playing in the back row, not the front row. And I'd say it was maybe five minutes before half-time I end up with the ball on fourth tackle, on the edge, before the days of people on the edge, back row is having a bit of skill and a bit of ability. I'm still a front rower, me.
I get the ball and I oof it up as high as I can, chase it, I'm nowhere near it, the fullback catches it 10 meters away from me, and just drifts around me. I wouldn't even say he was sprinting. So, I go in at half-time, I've had enough time to forget about it, and Tunks, he says, "Sit down, lads. Sit down, lads. Before I talk to everybody, I just want to talk to Barrie in front of everybody. You ever kick the ball again in my team, you'll never play for this club as long as I'm here."
Shaun Lunt:
You had your kicking license revoked.
Barrie McDermott:
Do you know when people start to go like that in the changing room?
Adrian Morley:
Yeah keep him away from him.
Barrie McDermott:
I'm getting away from him.
Shaun Lunt:
You by yourself on that one.
Barrie McDermott:
What about words of encouragement, Moz? Is there any time where a coach has said something to you that's had a profound effect on you?
Adrian Morley:
Yeah, so I made my debut at Headlingly good Friday 94, 95 season. And it was the days of you play Good Friday, you play Easter Monday. So on the Easter Monday I was getting to start on my first start for the first team, obviously very, very nervous. And then we got to Thrum Hall playing against Halifax and then there was no sign of Dougie Laughton anywhere. He was the head coach. Anyway, 15 minutes before kickoff, still no sign of Dougie anywhere. I could see the regular first teams, they was getting a bit edgy as well. Anyway, five minutes full kickoff. He used to smoke all the time. He walked into changing room with a fag in his mouth. He says, "You'll beat these today boys. You know why? Because this (bleep)." Turned around and just walked out the changing room. So that was my introduction to-
Barrie McDermott:
Did you win?
Adrian Morley:
The first team... No, he was wrong. He was. He was. But it always stick with me that one.
Barrie McDermott:
Lunt too. What about you?
Shaun Lunt:
For me, Brian Mack, it was what he did, not actually what he said. Obviously what he said, he had a profound effect. But I can remember just one day I was getting physio and I was getting a shower, I was by myself, I was getting a shower, everyone had gone home and Brian Mack just struts into changing rooms, gets his kit off, gets in showers and I'm just sort of froze still. Obviously he's a coach. I've never been in showers with coaches before. That don't happen, does it? And he just goes, all right son. And then he gets out literally ten second shower drives himself with his t-shirt, puts his t-shirt back on, puts his clothes back on her, off he goes. And I'm just like, wow, he was a great character was Brian Mack.
Barrie McDermott:
Good player, but fantastic coach, Brian McDermott. Left a big impact on this place as well. But I think my coach and the person, and it leads me onto the next question really because my question is, who was the first coach that you came across that understood you and understood how to get the best out of you? And mine was Ellery Hanley. So words of wisdom before my Great Britain debut where we talked about in one of the previous podcasts, Ellery saw the nerves and anxiety and how worked up was, and he put his arm around me, you know what? He's like Ellery's just an immaculate human being. Well turned out, well-spoken, always well thought. And he put his arm around me, he said, "You okay Brian?" I said, "Ah, I'm just a bit like I don't want to let anybody down." He put his arm around me and he said, "Listen, all you've got to do is be the best version of yourself today. Everything you do, do it to the absolute maximum of your capability and it's good enough for this team."
And you have an ability to plug into me and I think those around him and it's a great shame he's not involved on a day-to-day basis, but he's obviously is one of our Hall of Famers and most treasured people and icon. So what about you? Who was the first coach that actually got you?
Shaun Lunt:
For me, it was Nathan Brown. He was a former. Obviously when I signed at Huddersfield he'd just come in, so he'd come over and one of the things that he did say was, I'm not bringing my family halfway across the world to not have a go and not to win. And his knowledge of the game was unbelievable. And he worked with me and obviously my strengths was my running game. So he tried to put a little bit of ball playing in there. You get nines, you get a nine, that's a runner or you get a nine, that's more of a ballplayer. And Nathan, he was unbelievable. Look again, Scott Moore, he turned him into an international.
The people that he turned from average players into international players were unreal. But Nathan, I can always remember that the first year of 2009, because I wasn't meant to be that. I wasn't getting no bonuses in my contract, I was meant to get 400 pound a game and because I wasn't meant to be there, I didn't get them given. And he got a bonus at the end of the year and he actually gave me that bonus.
Barrie McDermott:
Oh, that's good.
Shaun Lunt:
Yeah, he gave me that money. He knew I was struggling at the time.
Barrie McDermott:
He must've been on a good contract to give money away.
Shaun Lunt:
Oh, yeah.
Barrie McDermott:
He would've pushed you, would've challenged you. Did you believe him when he talked about your potential?
Shaun Lunt:
Yes. Like I say, he turned me from, I went from working some division two side to an international hooker. And for me, like I said, the way he spoke about rugby, the way he approached the game, it was just totally different. And you could actually see within a couple of years other teams started to sort of play like he did. And I can always remember when we played, and I think this is when everyone knew that we were actually... We were there, we meant business as a team was we beat St. Helens at Warrington in the semi-final of the challenge cup and we did a play on the right-hand side where I think it was myself or Scotty gave it to Fulty.
Fulty. had an inside runner and he brought Odsin out the back and we went round and we stripped Stance and I don't even think Stance knew. Just the sort of player that they couldn't even defend. They were all looking around what's just happened. And again, then you started seeing other teams implementing that and for Nathan to come over, I think he changed a little bit the dynamic of how Super League was played.
Barrie McDermott:
Yeah, my favorite coach was Gray Murray. I know somebody really influential on you and I think about my memories of Gray Murray wanted a big, tough, rough pack, didn't he? We had some real sort of steel in our pack in 99, but I remember a game, it might've been 98, 99, where we played Saint's here. And I saw him speak to you and he's saying, "We've got get stuck into St. Helens." Was it Paul Davidson who calls him Les, didn't you? You've whacked him in the first couple of minutes he got set off.
Shaun Lunt:
He's a bit-
Barrie McDermott:
I'm not sure that's in the game plan, but that might not be the most influential person that got you. Is it? Is it Ricky Stewart?
Adrian Morley:
No, it was Graham Murray because I was young at the time when he signed for the club, I was twenty-year-old. So very impressionable. And even before I met him, I loved him because he'd written a piece, can't wait to coach in the English Super League. Something I've always wanted to do. At Leeds I think have got the finest young forward and young back in Iestyn Harris and Adrian Morley. And I was like the chuff know little things like that. He didn't have to do that. But then he got off on the right foot and then obviously his coaching ability spoke for itself, but I didn't realize, he used to go around the senior players like Martin Marsella and them and say, look, Adrian's young, you're living on his own when you getting round now and again just to have a bit of family and used to go around Martin Marsella's quite regular, but it was all down to Gray Murray.
I didn't know any of this. So he got the bigger picture. He was only here two years, but he left the lasting legacy on me and the team and the club. He is still revered now. He is not with us anymore. Gray Murray, but he was absolutely fantastic. He speaks to like Iestyn Harris and Darrell Powell that they think he's the best that they've ever had.
Barrie McDermott:
He was really good at the soft things, the peripheral things like understanding that somebody living away from home, even though it's only 40, 50 miles down the road, would need just that little bit of a touch every now and then. So yeah, Graham Murray, good coach, my favorite coach, but good coach more for what he did around the place rather than... Do you remember you used to talk about the people in the building? Don't ignore the cleaner, learn the cleaner's name. Don't just take your coffee, don't just take your food. Say thank you. Please and thank you. He used to say the most important thing, rule number one is please and thank you in our environment.
Adrian Morley:
And as a coach, he wasn't light years ahead of anyone else. He was extremely competent. He was a great coach. But you're right, it was the other things that made him the special coach he was, I think.
Barrie McDermott:
So talk about Nathan Brown who was an incredible player and a coach of Huddersfield and St. Helens in this country and still going, still in the system. Were there times where it was tough love for them?
Shaun Lunt:
Yes. Like I said, when he sprayed me for as we say in the rugby league, terms of not mopping up on the inside and it's what I needed at times though. And again you talk about Graham Murray there, I think Nathan got that. Everyone was a human as well, not just a rugby player. We know ourselves playing rugby is the easy part, 80 minutes, it's great, you're out there, you forget about everything, you've got no worries, you've got no care in the world. And then you come home and then obviously you've got to deal with home life. And Nathan got that and Nathan understood that. Look after your family, get a nice harmony away from the game and then that'll transpire onto the game. And like I said, Nathan was just a really good person, a really good people person, but also he was a maverick at the tactician on the field.
Barrie McDermott:
So even when he lost his temper, even though it looked like he was out of control and giving it to somebody, you knew that there was a reason and a purpose behind it.
Shaun Lunt:
You knew it was coming from a place from his heart. He wanted you to do better. He knew that he knew your potential. And I believe that you look at that team, Jermaine McGilvray, who I believe is one of the best wingers in super league era amongst a couple of us. You look at Leroy Cudjoe, Kevin Brown, Luke Robinson, myself, Eorl Crabtree Darrell Griffin, we all played international rugby and you look at the youngsters coming through that he had an imprint on as well. So his sort of legacy when he came over here for a short period of time has had a massive impact on a lot of people's lives.
Barrie McDermott:
I don't believe you've ever had tough love, Moz, because you've always been the golden child.
Adrian Morley:
I've always been the favorite.
Barrie McDermott:
But I will say teachers pet all the time.
Adrian Morley:
I will annoy you. I will say though, I've never been coached by a coach using out-and-out Duffer. I've took something from every single coach I've had throughout my 28 career. Some are better than others, sure. But I've took something from virtually every coach. Everyone's got an accolade. What they can do really well. Probably the best all-around coach had was Tony Smith probably. He was very, very good. But as I say, Ricky Stewart, Graham Murray. Took little bits from all of them.
Barrie McDermott:
When you understand yourself now, when you reflect back on times young, medium and then at the back end of your career, what do you think you reacted best to, the arm round or the kick up the backside?
Shaun Lunt:
I was definitely the arms round person. I'm a pleaser at hearts. I like to please people and I used to struggle with that. Again, talking about resilience and I was very... My emotion, I wasn't very mature emotionally, so I didn't take criticism very well at the start I used to think. And now that I coach myself in amateur, you realize when you say something, you've got to be very careful in what you say because-
Barrie McDermott:
Choose your words.
Shaun Lunt:
You've got to choose your words because on that field, or it could be just that heat of the moment, one thing like you say, don't kick again or something like that. That means the world to that person. So you've got to be very cautious in what you say because depending on how that person will receive it and then kick on rather, like I used to go in my shell and then if I got a good bullock, I wouldn't try and do it again. Say if I tried to do a kick and it went out on the full. Well, you got to do it again. Again, what we talked about making mistakes, don't be scared to make mistakes. I was too scared at times and I wouldn't try again. So yeah, I was definitely, you had to put your arm around me. Definitely.
Barrie McDermott:
Sometimes it's a bullock in. Sometimes it's filling you full of that belief. Which one did you prefer, do you think?
Adrian Morley:
Probably filling you full of belief really. So I was quite fortunate I didn't get many bullocks ins personally. It was all the team got a few bullocks ins and I was part of that team, so I felt a part of it. But even you mentioned Graham Murray get fired up for the game, too fired up. That's still the fastest send off in Super League. It's 90 seconds at one. So not that I'm smirking and I'm proud of it, but after the game instead of-
Barrie McDermott:
It's a bit of a theme for you isn't it. Off a second.
Shaun Lunt:
And he is smirking.
Barrie McDermott:
And he is proud of it.
Adrian Morley:
Well yeah, but instead of ripping into him, I told you, but then he was like, I know I told you to do this, however you can go about it better and explain it rather than firing straight in. So yeah, I was probably an arm round type of player.
Barrie McDermott:
I think because I've come from a northern working class family, Catholic upbringing, there weren't too many... Not encouragement, that's wrong. There weren't too many times where it was well done. And I don't seek that. I don't feel I react best to that. I react to people doubting and that it can be bollocking. It's that challenge. Oh, I'll show you. And I felt like Graham Murray did that with me. If you remember 98 I was coming back off an injury, ended up at Bramley on loan and then worked my way back into the team. 99 was one of my best years.
And then every coach I ever had at some point put that challenge to me, put that element of doubt in my mind. I was like, right, I've got the bit between my teeth now. And that's the point where I was at my best. And the best coaches that we've had in terms of winning things, you end up, you get a bond, you get a relationship and you maintain that. And I'm really lucky a guy called Steve O'Neill who coached me at Ireland, I still speak to him all the time. We go away every year in December, big gang of us and we have a few Guinesses together and just catch up and I'm still in touch with that. Is there any of your coaches you still keep in touch with?
Adrian Morley:
Yeah, yeah. I was over in Australia recently. I went out, I had a drive to Canberra to see Ricky Stewart. While I was out in Australia, Paul Cullen's lad, he's working for the Roosters. So I text call off my phone saying, oh, it'd be good to catch up when I do come back. I caught up with Tony Smith about two months ago. So yeah, it is great that you have that relationship, not really just with your old teammates, but your coaches as well. They're all part of it, aren't they?
Shaun Lunt:
Yeah, I developed a close bond with our strength and conditioner at the time when... So Nathan Brown came over and he brought over a guy called Mark Bumper Andrews. So Bumper actually lived with him for a little while, so he's waiting for his family to come over. So they'd come over in November and his family were coming over in January after Christmas. And I lived with Bumper for a couple of months and really close now to this day. And we still keep in touch and speak regular and always go to him for any advice.
Adrian Morley:
How did he get his nickname?
Shaun Lunt:
Do you know what? I don't think he ever told us that.
Adrian Morley:
Oh, right. It sounds like it's a story behind that.
Shaun Lunt:
Yeah, totally. Yeah, because like you're saying rugby second name, well, your nicknames have a Y or a O on the end of your surname. Yeah, yeah. No, I don't think-
Adrian Morley:
You find that one out. You have to us know.
Shaun Lunt:
I'll have to report back in the next series. Yeah.
Barrie McDermott:
We've all coached and coached our sons really, but we've all coached at different levels. What bits have your coaching style can you directly point back to some of those important people in your career?
Shaun Lunt:
So for me, again, Nathan, some of the players that we do, they're sort of universal now in Rugby League, the players that he does. So I try to do that. But one of my favorite coaches and I probably admire the most actually is Brian McDermott. He was a leader. When you talk about people that go into war for you, and I can always remember the time at Wakefield when Gary came in and gave us all the spray after the game and Brian just stood down and said, that's not the time that. And I was just like, wow. A guy has just stood up in front of the CEO, the owner of the club and backed his players.
And I think that we sort of... Well, especially for me, I was like, I'd run through a brick wall for him. And so Brian really had that nurture. And again, when you go a player, I don't know whether you guys were the same, but he was like he was your big brother. You're in the schoolyard and you may be going for a little fight and your big brother's there, you feel better don't you? And Brian, I always saw I had that big brother behind me backing me all the time.
Barrie McDermott:
Is that what you try and do for your kids now, your lads?
Shaun Lunt:
Yes. I try to be the pillar of strength even when I'm nervous and I'm scared myself, I try and be that pillar of strength for them and I try to encourage them to... Brian's very morally like sat like he's... Lives by his morals. I can always remember playing. He never encouraged any dirty tricks or any of the dark arts of rugby, he was all play fair like gentlemen and win.
Adrian Morley:
He was a heavyweight boxing champion in the Marines as well. So when you're saying I got me big brother behind him, I could see why that'd give you confidence.
Shaun Lunt:
Yeah, exactly. And it always going out on that field, you know he had his back and he'd be stood there and chewing his chewed gum. And yeah, I can always remember it and he had a really profound effect on me. And again, it's like what Moz was saying before about the coach, you take a little bit from each coach. Nathan Brown, even Tim Sheens, again, one of the coaching greats over in Australia, just the little tacticians and little bits. And again, nobody's the perfect coach. Nobody's the perfect player, so you've got to take them little bits and implement them in my coaching role now.
Adrian Morley:
Yeah, well, I coached there at the Rhinos in the academy and I was quite big on not trying to play any games, just being honest with the players if you had to drop him and explain why and what they could do to try and get back in the team. But certainly wouldn't, as I say, play any silly mind games. And then so that's what I tried to implement.
Barrie McDermott:
And was that off Graham Murray, Ricky Stewart, or both?
Adrian Morley:
It was off both, yeah. Yeah, I think I did enjoy certain elements of the coaching, but certain players I didn't really enjoy. But growing up as a player I didn't really have aspirations to be a coach. So I'm glad I tried it, but it's not for me and I know that and I was grateful for the opportunity. But yeah, that's it.
Barrie McDermott:
Let's try and put it into the working environment now. Think about the best coaches, think about the best bits of advice that are brought out the best in you. How do you think that transfers to the work environment? What makes a good mentor, leader, boss?
Shaun Lunt:
Again, it's been understandable and knowing that person, how you get the best out of that person, again, whether it's in the boardroom, meeting room, or on the pitch, the same styles apply. You might have someone that needs, again, like you said, that challenge, put them down a peg or two. So come on, then fight back up or put your arm around them and say, come on, you're doing this wrong. Let's work together and get better. So again, it's knowing the individual and not being judgmental and actually living what you preach as well. There's a lot of people do as I say, not as I do. So for me is how I implement into my work and role now is I try to lead by my actions.
Barrie McDermott:
Yeah, because people see right through it. If what you're saying and what you're doing isn't congruent, they'll pull you straight away and go, well, why should I do it? He's not doing it. So yeah. What about you, Moz?
Adrian Morley:
Well, we've mentioned I was teacher's pet, so I very rarely got into trouble off my coaches, but I did get into a few bother with the CEO with Gary Hetherington. So I had a few indiscretions off the field rather than on it. Well, if you on it as well. But a couple of-
Barrie McDermott:
These are two long lists these days. Selective.
Adrian Morley:
So in court a couple of times and it was getting to the point where it could have potentially been an issue. There was talk of custodial sentence at one point. Anyway, Gary had written us a letter, I think he turned up to court for us actually. It was great to have the support, but as much as it was bollocking, it was genuine advice on what not to do or what to do at that stage of my life. So I was really grateful even though it was still a, as I say, still a bollocking, but it was positive.
Barrie McDermott:
We've got a gift really because of the experiences we've got within sport. We're used to constructive criticism. We're used to damning criticism as well and handling it in the right way. What advice would you give for people who struggle with constructive or damning criticism? What advice would you give them?
Shaun Lunt:
For me, it's that sort of, we spoke about earlier on off-air about that growth mindset. Don't be so fixated in your own... Don't catastrophize things. People are trying to help you. You've got to be willing to learn and willing to get things wrong like we spoke about today and put yourself out there and really want to learn as well. It don't matter how old you are, we're all still learning. If you've got that philosophy and you've got that drive in life to learn, I think you'll always bode well.
Barrie McDermott:
The biggest thing for me when I went into industry is nobody wants feedback. They want the good feedback, they want to be congratulated, but if they've not done it in the way that's got them the result that they wanted, they don't want to pick the bones, take it apart and realize where the mistakes was. What advice would you give them?
Adrian Morley:
Well, the way I see it as a player or even in the working environment, your teammates, your workmates, your coaches, your bosses, your CEOs, they only want what's best for the establishment. So the better you perform, the better the team performs, the better the company performs. So if they're saying things which you don't particularly like, you've got to remember, it's not personal, it's just the bigger picture. They're just trying to get us what's best for the company. So take the criticism, take the points, more often than it will be constructive. You might start sulking, but you're thinking, you know what, if I do this, I'll be a better workmate, I'll be a better player. And then we only want the same goal.
Barrie McDermott:
I was reluctant for conflict, but in a work environment there's a way of sitting down and going through stuff. And if you could go back and you could look at something that had helped you. Me, it was learning how to resolve that conflict and sit down and talk about it in a mature way. If you could go back and thank the coach for something that you took whilst you as a player that you use now in a professional basis on a day-to-day basis, what would that be?
Shaun Lunt:
Well, that's a tough one that, because again, we've had so many coaches and each individual, but again, probably going back to Brian Mack and standing for what you believe, whether it's against everyone else, but you're standing for something... Or like the old saying, you stand for something or you fall for anything. And for me, Brian Mack was that pillar of strength and whether or not he was inside, he showed it on the outside and again, he stuck to what he believed and he went for it.
Adrian Morley:
Graham Murray, I know you like the saying as well, Barrie, but it's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice. And that's not just in your rugby league world, in life in general, that's a quality advice.
Barrie McDermott:
Yeah, it's a great piece of advice. And one I live by myself as well. So yeah, we have a lot to thank Graham Murray for, but we're lucky we've had some tremendous role models, some tremendous mentors and people who've guided us and steered us. And then when you go into that work environment, it's slightly different and it's sometimes hard to try and sit alongside somebody who hasn't had the same upbringing or apprenticeship as we have and get them to go in the right direction. And that resilience that we've got, that inherent inbuilt resilience always shines through.
All right, time for some more locker room legends. And let's talk about some of the master tacticians that we've all played alongside. The game of rugby league, obviously the physicality levels are through the roof, but it's about the chess players within the team, because rugby's just chess played at high speed. Who are the coaches or players that stand out for you that were the sharpest tacticians that you ever came across?
Shaun Lunt:
So the coach would be Tim Sheens. He was, I can only describe him as a nerd of rugby league. He knew every player, every rule in the book. He used to study the rules and if he could bend them, he could bend them. And I can always remember we were playing Salford at Salford when we nearly beat them in the challenge cup. And what we used to do is when we used to going for a scrum, we used to get our props to hold their props in and we used to turn the scrum towards which way we were going to go. And we actually scored two tries.
I scored both tries from the arse end of the scrum. Going to the playing side of things. The players would be Brett Hodgson. Obviously a lot of people remember Brett Hodgson when playing for New South Wales and Gordon Tallis in 25 meets in a touch. But I can remember when he turned up, we were down at Leeds Road, it was wet, it was cold, it was in November, and he had a pair of skins on and he walked over and everyone sort of looked at him and went... He looked like Montgomery Burns who was slender. We were like, who is this person? How is he going to change us? And I tell you what. Do you know we talk about class players having time on the ball? Every time he got the ball, the time-
Barrie McDermott:
Did he win Man of Steel?
Shaun Lunt:
He won Man of Steel. Every time he got the ball, it just seemed like someone clicked slow motion. And he just, like I said, the plays that he did at the back, the hits that he took, he was so special to play with. Yeah, he was unbelievable, him.
Barrie McDermott:
What about you Moz? Which plays did you play with that were two, three players ahead of where you were at the time?
Adrian Morley:
I'd say I've got a couple. There's the lad who played with Yustin Harris. I mean, I don't think he knew what he was going to do himself. He was such an individual player, but particularly in 98 when he was by far the best player in the Super League, he won the Man of Steel Award and he was just such a joy to play with. But again, I don't think he was a great, fantastic organizer, more of an individual player. The person who organized best for me was Lee Briers. And I think he just got better and better as he got older. And again, you've mentioned about having time on your hands more often than not, Briers made the right decision and it's no surprise that we had most success when he was on the ball and he was playing well.
Barrie McDermott:
I want to talk about somebody you know really well but played with over in the NRL, Brad Fittler. Was he a master tactician or was he just somebody a bit like yes, who played on instinct, but his instinct never let him go?
Adrian Morley:
He was a little bit of both. No matter what's happening in the game, you knew he could have a spark of magic and just win the game for you. He was that talented. But he was a fantastic captain. He was a pleasure to play with him, but I was more impressed not just his ability, but the way he went about himself, the way he spoke, the way he addressed the team. And he was the latter stages of his career when I played with him. But no less impressive. He was probably one of the best players I played with.
Barrie McDermott:
Talk about, yes, there was lots of times I was in a game and I'm just looking to him thinking we need to get the ball in his hands. But at the time I think about was one time when I wasn't playing, I was suspended. Surprise. I was watching it in a bar in Tenerife, funnily enough, and it was the Bradford game in 98, Moz, can you remember it?
Adrian Morley:
Second game of the season.
Barrie McDermott:
He was unreal. And I was sat thinking, how has he done that?
Adrian Morley:
Well, they were the reigning champs.
Barrie McDermott:
That's right.
Adrian Morley:
They won 97 at Canter. I think they won 17 games straight. Lost a couple towards the end, but they were the benchmark. And then it was Gray Murray. So we played one game here and then we got to play Bradford Away and we absolutely schooled him. My favorite moment was when our star player-
Barrie McDermott:
Broke his nose. Yeah.
Adrian Morley:
Yeah, he copped Graeme Bradley.
Barrie McDermott:
Bradley. That's the penguin. Yeah.
Adrian Morley:
It was really annoying Australian. And the camera just panned on him and his nose was gone and blood was down his white shirt and get in there Daz. Anyway, we're not allowed to encourage that behavior anymore.
Barrie McDermott:
We're not endorsing that. We are.
Adrian Morley:
Yeah, it was great. But yes, thing was on fire. I think he scored a hat trick and that was the start of his great year and Leeds' great year as well.
Shaun Lunt:
Going back to Mavericks and stuff like Danny Brough, that he got Man of Steel.
Barrie McDermott:
I'm glad you've mentioned Brough because he's another one that got Man of Steel that I think sometimes doesn't get the recognition that he deserves because he had the most competitive spirit on anybody. He was often fighting with his own shadow because he was annoyed with something that had gone wrong for his team.
Shaun Lunt:
Again with Broughy, Nathan Brown saw something in Broughy and what Nathan Brown wanted was a kicking game. And I'm telling you now, Broughy is the most talented person I've ever seen kick a ball to this day, including all the Aussies. Literally he could knock in a 2020, change the game. Do you know, talking about the moments, the momentum swings. So 2013, the spine of the team was Scott Grix, Luke Robinson, Danny Brough, and myself. And what we did was, again, when we talk about teams, me, Grixy, and Robbo, we sort of directed everything and let Broughy do what he wanted. You can't have too many Mavericks in the team, neither can you a bit like a Rangi Chase. He was outstanding. But everyone needs to play their structured game to allow him to do that off the cuff stuff. Sometimes it doesn't come off. But yeah, Danny Brough was... He was amazing that year. He got Man of Steel. He was sensational.
Barrie McDermott:
Let's talk about legacy and lessons from sport, from the experience you've had out on the pitch. What do these tacticians teach us about leadership and preparations beyond sport?
Adrian Morley:
Well, it's important you have a goal. It's important you have a plan. There's no point in going out there not doing any training or not practicing anything and going out on game day expecting to get a result or going to a meeting business-wise, expecting to get a favorable result. You need to go in with a plan. You need to go in and just have a think what you want, what you want to get out of it, and then go in, execute it and then see how you go.
Shaun Lunt:
Yeah, don't rely on luck. You make your own look in sports or in the world, don't you? People might see that 40, 20 or they might see that outstanding tribe, that individual tribe. But again, they've tried that over and over and the field and they've kept going and they've kept going. And for me it's the hours, just put in the hours, just keep doing it, keep doing it. And like I said, that's how you come up trumps is you make your own luck.
Barrie McDermott:
Serious Rugby IQ. Some cracking answers there a little bit. Let's go through the takeaways now for our listeners and talk about the coaches, the mentors, and the lessons within it. So for people who aren't lucky enough to have a coach, how key and how important is it to have or seek a mentor?
Shaun Lunt:
Yeah, I think it's extremely important. Also, when we talk about mentors, we think of positive, don't we? But I've also had coaches that have been (bleep) and I've learned a lot from how not to be as well. So again, now in life I take bits that what I don't want to be about them as well. So the negative parts as well. So even the negative ones, you can still take some positives away from them. So again, in life you'll come across good ones, you'll come across bad ones and it's just about taking them little bits and try to seek a good one and be fortunate to get that one that's got time and energy to put into you.
Adrian Morley:
And just try not to take things personally. If you're in team or business, you all want the same thing. Your boss or your coach wants you to perform as well as you can, just so the organization is giving itself the best chance. So yeah, just have a bit of a thick skin and take it on board and seek help if you can.
Barrie McDermott:
And how do people avoid a negative reaction to that feedback? What tips would you give them on handling criticism Moz?
Adrian Morley:
Yeah, just don't take it personally. I mentioned before, whatever your boss or your coach is saying, it's to make you a better player, make you a better work colleague. It's to make the company better, make the team better. So take it on board and do something about it. You don't want to be the weak link in the team, the weak link in the company, have a look and work with the boss or work with your coach. See if you are improving over a given amount of time. But yeah, it's not personally, you've got to be thick-skinned.
Shaun Lunt:
Yeah. And again, you might not agree with what the boss is saying or the person in charge is saying, and you don't have to. It's how you approach things as well. If you're in a team environment and your coach is spraying you, you're not going to spray him back or you're not, you're not going to have that emotional response because-
Barrie McDermott:
You're not going to win, are you?
Shaun Lunt:
You're not going to win. Now it's like at home and you're telling your kids off, they're never going to win either. Even when they're right, they're still wrong. So for me it's how you approach things. If someone said something, and again, we've talked about you say some stuff and you don't realize how that person's going to take it, just say to that person, oh, please can I have 30 seconds of your time. Just explain to me, I don't really understand what you're saying. And again, it could be taken the total wrong way how that person said it.
Barrie McDermott:
So asking questions is important.
Shaun Lunt:
Yeah. But yes, so it's-
Barrie McDermott:
No good as a leader just pointing out what you've done wrong. The follow-up to that is right, help me fix it.
Shaun Lunt:
Yeah. Again, we can all say when something happens on sky, and we can say, you shouldn't have done that. But it's totally different when you're in the heat of the moment when you're in that battle. So it's explaining why they're doing something wrong. Again, I use it with my kids. If I tell them off, if they're doing something wrong, I don't just say, you're doing that wrong. I'll explain to them why it's wrong and then they understand it. So if they do it again, that's when you can give them a good bollocking. But again, at least they know wrong from right. If you don't know you're doing something wrong, well, it's not wrong in my eyes.
Barrie McDermott:
And if you want to be a leader in your environment, any environment, how do you think the best way to go about that?
Adrian Morley:
Well, I think you need to be honest. I think you need to give honest feedback to your players or to your staff, try to set them goals. You could have a conversation with them and ask where they're going wrong, where they think they can improve. And as I say, ultimately you want the company to do better or the team to do better. And when they're performing as well as they can, that's exactly what will happen.
Shaun Lunt:
Again, for me, it's about living what you preach. It's about putting it into practice. If people see you doing it, they will follow. So for me, what I do is I've got a little stick man on a piece of paper and I've got three morals, integrity, non-judgmental, and accepting of anyone. And they're the three things that I believe that if I stick to those morals and I'm doing that on a daily basis, that I'm becoming a mentor and leading people in the right way.
Barrie McDermott:
So if we do get a second series, hopefully we come back. What improvements do you want to make? I personally want more food on the table. Although it might distract me, but I want more food, more fruit on the table. What about you, Lunty?
Shaun Lunt:
Probably a better known props either side of me.
Barrie McDermott:
Well yeah, maybe.
Shaun Lunt:
Maybe.
Adrian Morley:
How about special guests from different environments.
Shaun Lunt:
Absolutely.
Barrie McDermott:
Better chairs, less squeaky.
Shaun Lunt:
Yes.
Barrie McDermott:
Things you can play with when you're bored. And Moz being on time and instead of turning up late and wanting to go early.
Adrian Morley:
Keep them on the toes. That's me.
Barrie McDermott:
Why do you keep tapping your watch?
Adrian Morley:
Hey, because I've got places to be mate.
Barrie McDermott:
Places to be. In other words, Mrs. Morley needs you home.
Adrian Morley:
That's right.
Barrie McDermott:
Well, hopefully you've enjoyed it. Adrian Morley, Shaun Lunt, my name's Barrie McDermott. This has been Changing Rooms, brought to you by our good friends at Elect. Hopefully we'll see you again where we have more food on the table. We have better guests, less squeaky chairs. You have better props at this side here. And hopefully we'll see you soon. Like and subscribe and try and find us somewhere, anywhere.