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There’s a moment every young mom hits (usually sometime around 2 AM) where exhaustion meets confusion, and the question quietly surfaces: “Am I doing this right?”
Sleep training can feel like one of the most overwhelming parts of early motherhood, especially when advice pulls you in opposite directions. In this episode, we slows things down and reframe everything through a grace-centered lens, reminding moms that the goal isn’t perfection, but peace, wisdom, and responsiveness to the child God has uniquely entrusted to them.
Sleep training can feel like one of the most overwhelming parts of early motherhood, especially when advice pulls you in opposite directions. In this episode, we slows things down and reframe everything through a grace-centered lens, reminding moms that the goal isn’t perfection, but peace, wisdom, and responsiveness to the child God has uniquely entrusted to them.
Rather than offering a rigid formula, we'll gently walk you through a bigger picture: understanding your baby’s cues, embracing the natural rhythms of growth and change, and letting go of pressure to “get it right.”
Episode Highlights
00:00 — Life updates and why sleep training is worth revisiting
05:00 — What people really think about sleep training (and why it’s confusing)
15:00 — Learning your baby’s cues and building simple rhythms
20:00 — Why writing things down changes everything
30:00 — Handling disruptions: regressions, teething, and tough nights
40:00 — Encouragement, Scripture, and trusting God with your child
05:00 — What people really think about sleep training (and why it’s confusing)
15:00 — Learning your baby’s cues and building simple rhythms
20:00 — Why writing things down changes everything
30:00 — Handling disruptions: regressions, teething, and tough nights
40:00 — Encouragement, Scripture, and trusting God with your child
Please send us your questions if you'd like to have them discussed on the podcast: themindofachildpodcast@gmail.com
The Mind of a Child is an early child development podcast that exists to encourage and equip parents to raise their kids to love God and love others. If you're looking for Biblical principles, practical parenting solutions, and science-backed research, our discussions are specifically tailored for you. Our hosts are Leslie Dudley Corbell and Diane Doucet Matthews, who each have a combined 50+ years of experience in the early child parenting space.
Creators and Guests
What is The Mind of a Child?
The Mind of a Child is an early child development podcast that exists to encourage and equip parents to raise their kids to love God and love others. If you're looking for Biblical principles, practical parenting solutions, and science-backed research, our discussions are specifically tailored for you. Our hosts are Leslie Dudley Corbell and Diane Doucet Matthews, who each have a combined 50+ years of experience in the early child parenting space.
The Mind of a Child is produced by Rockwell Productions (www.rockwell-productions.com).
[00:00:00] Leslie Corbell: Hello, I'm Leslie Dudley Corbell. And I'm Diane Doucette Matthews, welcome to the Mind of a Child.
We are so glad y'all joined us today. You know, it's been a while.
[00:00:17] Diane Matthews: Yes. We've been busy. I know. What have you been doing?
[00:00:20] Leslie Corbell: Well, I have been taking care of my now nine month old grandbaby. Wow. Every day while his mother works, and it's been so much fun.
[00:00:29] Diane Matthews: Nine months.
[00:00:30] Leslie Corbell: He's nine months old now.
[00:00:31] Diane Matthews: You know? I think he, I thought he was just like six months.
[00:00:33] Leslie Corbell: Yeah. No, I started taking care of him when her maternity leave was finished.
[00:00:37] Diane Matthews: Oh, that's
[00:00:38] Leslie Corbell: right. So that was November.
[00:00:39] Diane Matthews: Okay. So
[00:00:40] Leslie Corbell: yeah,
[00:00:41] Diane Matthews: we're both in New Seasons because my new season is, uh, my husband's retired and so we were, we went through the retirement parties and then we went on a little vacation, and now we're back in town really living retirement life.
[00:00:57] Leslie Corbell: That's great. That's great. You know, it, it is all [00:01:00] such a blessing. It is. Yeah. And it's
[00:01:02] Diane Matthews: different.
[00:01:02] Leslie Corbell: It is different. Yeah. Yeah. Days look different. Very different now.
[00:01:06] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:06] Leslie Corbell: Um, and so. We thought it would be fun to visit a topic that we've talked about before. Mm-hmm. Revisit it and add some more information.
Kind of go a little bit deeper on it. And that topic is sleep training,
[00:01:24] Diane Matthews: because it comes up so
[00:01:25] Leslie Corbell: often. It
[00:01:26] Diane Matthews: does. It does. And we,
[00:01:27] Leslie Corbell: I'm, yeah.
[00:01:28] Diane Matthews: What I'm seeing it lived. Well, you're living it, you're experiencing it
[00:01:32] Leslie Corbell: right
[00:01:32] Diane Matthews: now, but we see. See it often, and we hear people talk about it all the time. Yeah. I mean, it's a daily issue with a lot of young moms or moms with young children.
I always correct myself on that one.
[00:01:42] Leslie Corbell: Right. That's, you know, that's never thought about that. Yeah. But it is moms with young children or grandmoms
[00:01:48] Diane Matthews: or grandmas
[00:01:48] Leslie Corbell: with young.
[00:01:49] Diane Matthews: That's true.
[00:01:50] Leslie Corbell: Yeah.
[00:01:51] Diane Matthews: Uh,
[00:01:51] Leslie Corbell: for me, one thought was, you know, they. I see a pendulum swing in so many areas of child rearing, whether it's [00:02:00] sleeping, eating, feeding, just feeding them solids.
I mean, there's always a pendulum swing from one generation to another generation, and so. I thought it would be good to really talk about it. 'cause there's a lot of nuance that sometimes those pendulum, pendulum swings don't pick up.
[00:02:19] Diane Matthews: That's right. That's right. Mm-hmm. And so what do you think the real change of perspective might be like?
You, you are thinking a lot about it because you're with Samuel every day, and so what do you think maybe those little nuances that need to be brought up? What, what are, what are a few of those?
[00:02:38] Leslie Corbell: One thing. I think people sometimes, you know, they clinging to, they're so desperate or tired, or exhausted or uncertain.
Mm-hmm. Maybe don't really know what to do, and they're so hyper worried about getting it right.
[00:02:54] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:55] Leslie Corbell: That sometimes they hear some advice that's put out there [00:03:00] from, I'm gonna put quotes around it. Experts including me and you. Right. I mean, we're not. And, and they, they take words that are said and clinging to those like a laugh life raft, right?
Like, okay, this is gonna get me through this night somehow. And so we're, I thought it'd be important to speak into this and get a little bit more of the big picture going, what is it we're really trying to accomplish here? What is our goal with all of this so that we can. Kind of get rid of all that. You are the expert of your child.
[00:03:30] Diane Matthews: That's right.
[00:03:30] Leslie Corbell: And so I wanna empower parents to know that they are the expert on their child, and if sometimes relaxing into it a little bit more.
[00:03:38] Diane Matthews: Mm.
[00:03:39] Leslie Corbell: Can.
[00:03:41] Diane Matthews: Lead you through it, right. And encourage them. So let's think a little broader and just, uh, just kind of imagine when people hear the word, you know, sleep training, what do they think of, what do you think of, what do I think of what, what do the general public, when they hear sleep training, what do you think they think of?
[00:03:58] Leslie Corbell: Well, un unfortunately for [00:04:00] me, I have a very negative view of the term sleep training because I tend to think of adults who are being rigid. In imposing a, a, um, a schedule on a child. And so that's, and, and I think of I'm, I, I mean, I think of that pendulum. Part of the pendulum is the part of the pendulum that comes to my mind first.
Okay. And so what I would like to think of that somehow in that definition is some sort of wisdom maybe that, that parents have. Balanced or overlaid with some sort of responsiveness to the infant need.
[00:04:38] Diane Matthews: Hmm. Yeah. And you see what I think of is just helping the child. Uh, develop good sleeping habits so that they'll be well rested and well fed so that they can flourish.
You know, I, I don't really think of those negative things.
[00:04:55] Leslie Corbell: Yeah,
[00:04:55] Diane Matthews: yeah. But what do you think the general population think of, you think it's more negative?
[00:04:59] Leslie Corbell: [00:05:00] Um, I think there's probably a, a, that pendulum swing. Yes. I think there's, that's I think either that someone has a very negative view of it and, oh, no, no, no.
That's. Mean and harsh and you know, adult let adult expectations being imposed as a young in infant or there might be people swinging to the other side of the pendulum that says, oh, well, we'll just go with the flow and, and we'll just whatever happens, you know, maybe go remove boundaries, right? That actually could be healthy and help the child, the infant grow and develop as well as.
The healthy development of the family. Yeah.
[00:05:33] Diane Matthews: So I think
[00:05:33] Leslie Corbell: there's a balance there that doesn't always get addressed.
[00:05:37] Diane Matthews: It doesn't get addressed well. We know that there's a lot of different ideas, but let's think of things that I, I'm just gonna mention a few things that I think most parents would agree on. I think as parents or grandparents, in our case, you know that we really want our kids grandkids to feel love, and we want them to feel safe, and we want them to be well [00:06:00] rested.
That's one thing. Um, we know that, uh, what works for one baby is maybe not gonna work for another baby. Mm-hmm. You know, when you think of sleep training, you know, it's, it's different for each child. And then, uh, also within a year, babies' sleep needs. Or not even need. It just changes so much within a year.
You know, I mean, it just changes. And I mean, we can't do anything about that. It's just gonna change. And so as moms and grandmothers, we need to be very, uh, sensitive and observe what those cues are. And then I think another one that we all agree on is, um, we, uh. We don't want our kids to be sleep deprived.
Mm-hmm. You know? 'cause we know that that could be very harmful and it's cumulative, you know? So anyway, so those are some things we all agree on.
[00:06:52] Leslie Corbell: Yes. And I'd even add to the one about the sleep changes. Just, I think that we all agree on this too, but just to develop even that idea, there's sleep [00:07:00] changes, but even in that, you may think.
You're in for a smooth sailing ride. Mm-hmm. All of those sleep changes have worked out. You've gotten every, everything down to a schedule, a routine night after night, and it's, there's gonna be a night that, that is my son-in-law. It's gonna be the worst night you've ever had. That's right. Come up.
[00:07:20] Diane Matthews: Yeah.
[00:07:20] Leslie Corbell: And so you have to be ready and flexible within all that and almost. Not welcoming of it, but it's, it all goes down to the adult perspective.
[00:07:29] Diane Matthews: And I, you're right. Mm-hmm. And I do think that you need to prepare yourself for change. That was one thing mm-hmm. That I wanted to make sure that we talked about and touched on, uh, repetitively.
That change. Change is the name of the game. Yes. With children change. Yes. And welcome it. 'cause if not, you're going be That's right. You're gonna be. Stressed out, you know? So change. Okay. So Leslie, you've touched on it all already, but how do you think a change in the perspective of sleep changing can be really helpful for the parent?
[00:07:57] Leslie Corbell: Well, I think just like with you and you and me, we [00:08:00] have different perspectives on that, even that term. Mm-hmm. And so parents are gonna bring. Different perspectives into it, whether it's based on their beliefs, their history, their personal perspective. So that's one thing is that we've got to, you know, look at that.
And so it seems to me that if we can look back and see the big picture, and I kind of touched on that already.
[00:08:20] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:21] Leslie Corbell: See the big picture, what our goals are with this. Move forward with that in mind and not really get zoomed in on the micro details. Mm-hmm. But really see the big picture and the macro.
[00:08:33] Diane Matthews: Okay.
[00:08:33] Leslie Corbell: Picture of what's going on.
[00:08:34] Diane Matthews: So what's the big goal, and we already mentioned it once, but let's just nail it down before we move on. What is the big major goal? The macro.
[00:08:42] Leslie Corbell: The macro is to give our child sufficient. Um, nutrition and rest mm-hmm. To help them grow and develop into. I, I, he, healthy young children kind of ease them into this whole idea of [00:09:00] day and night,
[00:09:00] Diane Matthews: right?
[00:09:00] Leslie Corbell: Because there is order in our day and in their night, and so that's gonna be, and the patterns of families may be different. The rhythms of the family, the activities that they do, they're, so we're gonna, we're easing them into that,
[00:09:13] Diane Matthews: I know, easing them into it
[00:09:16] Leslie Corbell: because when they're born, they sleep, it's all, but they gradually begin to wake up more and more.
[00:09:25] Diane Matthews: There's so many methods out there. There's so many ways to choose. They can be very structured, they can be very flexible, and, you know, you, you, I, I guess young or. Parents with young children have to make a decision. So they're either very structured, you know, on one extreme, and then they have the very gradual, gentle, and then they have the very, the very other extreme that's, um, what, what is it called?
It's uh. Um, let me, let me make sure I say it right. It's the attachment oriented [00:10:00] method that there's no rules, nothing. I mean, just whenever the child wants to sleep. Whenever the child wants to eat. So, I mean, there's a variety of choices out there, and I think we need to ask ourselves as moms, grandmothers, whatever, you know, do we want structure?
Do we want a little structure? Do we want total flexibility? You know it, that's a good question to ask ourselves. Now I'm gonna talk a little bit about my experience. When I was first, when I was, uh, uh, a mom, my first child, I didn't ask myself that question. I really didn't. And I didn't get enough information.
And so I think the only information I heard was, well, you know, when they're hungry. And so what happened was I was feeding my poor baby every time I felt like he was hungry or cried or I, I didn't know how to read cues or anything, so I was feeding this poor child every [00:11:00] hour and a half to two hours, 24 7.
Can you imagine how exhausted I was? And he was. I mean, fatigue had set in. And so, um, I think by the, I think a friend really felt sorry for me. And so after a while, um, they, she brought me this book that was, um. It was how to, you know, regulate sleeping and feeding. And I think it was just a godsend for me and it was very helpful.
And it was a Christian oriented book and it talked about God's order and rhythm and a child. And it was, it changed our whole. Household for the better, very, very much. And um, some of the scriptures, 'cause it would, it, I, I'll go to the scriptures in just a second, but it was, it really talked about how God is a God of rhythm and God is a God of order.
And boy did I need that. Uh, [00:12:00] but you know, you go to Genesis. And you look at creation, very orderly. You know, day, night, work, rest. And then I have so many scriptures right here that I, I just marked that, you know, even Ecclesiastes, there's an appointed time for everything, you know, and you can read through that.
Those are just so enjoyable to read through Jeremiah. Uh, fixes the order of, you know, the stars in the moon and the sky, you know, just everything. I think the one that I, I go to most often just thinking about this is, um, in one Corinthians, uh, I think it's 1433, for God is not a God of confusion or disorder, but of peace.
And so. The, the whole idea was just order. And boy did I need it. And it fitted, it fit my personality too. So, um, after that. It, I, [00:13:00] I, I bought into it and it was really, really very good for our whole family. So that was my experience. Yeah.
[00:13:09] Leslie Corbell: Yeah.
[00:13:09] Diane Matthews: So what was yours? Well,
[00:13:10] Leslie Corbell: I wanna speak more into my grandmommy experience.
Talk,
[00:13:14] Diane Matthews: talk back about your old, your, when you were mommy too.
[00:13:17] Leslie Corbell: Well, I wa when I was a, when I was a mommy, as I recall, I, I don't. Think I had strong gifts of structure.
[00:13:25] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:26] Leslie Corbell: I mean, I had routine. Mm-hmm. Like I did things in a routine, but I didn't necessarily structure things. And so, you know, to the good of the bad, it, it, it.
God has redeemed anything that maybe I didn't do so well, which is Amen. Which is a big point I wanna make sure we make. Yes. That, you know, there's no one right way to do this. But what I think, how, how he's blessed me and there, looking back, there might've been ways that God was wanting to grow me. Mm-hmm.
And get in my, in strengthening my ability to, uh. To, to structure [00:14:00] things and to, but I was, I was, felt a little out of, out of water also know mm-hmm. Little, kind of had a lot of things I was managing at the time. And so now though, I, he's given me an opportunity to see things Mm. With more clarity in, in this child.
So Samuel is so precious. So like I was saying, I started taking care of him when he was six months old.
[00:14:23] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:23] Leslie Corbell: You know, every day. Well, his mom works, so I'm coming into this basically with a, a new six month old. I really wasn't caring for him around the clock, and so I had to learn a lot about him. So, of course, great input from Madeline throughout telling me, you know, a little bit about what his cues are and what his routines are, but it really wasn't.
Incumbent upon me to learn it and to learn him.
[00:14:50] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:50] Leslie Corbell: To get to know Samuel. And so what helped me with this and what I think could really help other moms of young children. I [00:15:00] started writing down when he had a bottle. When he played, when he napped, when he had a bottle and just kind of just kept going with the routine.
So one. Mm-hmm. So I could report into Madeline, let her know how his day was like All, all good,
[00:15:14] Diane Matthews: all good. Grandmothers
[00:15:15] Leslie Corbell: did. Yes. Yes. And so she would know kind of what his day was like.
[00:15:18] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:19] Leslie Corbell: But it also was helpful to me because then I could observe him. So if I can see, well, he eats about every two hours.
Okay. These seem to be his cues and behaviors. That he's communicating to me that he's ready for a bottle.
[00:15:31] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:31] Leslie Corbell: And so he's been so easy. And I don't know, sometimes that's caused me to think, is it just because his temperament is easy or is it because he's such an effective communicator and he has taught me his language and I've learned it.
[00:15:47] Diane Matthews: Hmm.
[00:15:47] Leslie Corbell: So I think sometimes we can miss our baby's language and miscommunicate. Maybe we create challenging moments for [00:16:00] ourselves. Wow. So this has been really helpful to me. So I, I wrote it down. And so his routine now to nine month old is, he wakes up in the morning, he has a bottle, he plays for two hours.
He has another bottle. He plays for two more hours. He has a bottle, and he takes a nap. And so he has, and then we repeat that. Mm-hmm. So he has a morning nap and an afternoon nap. And so, you know, I've learned that, okay, you don't want to. Uh, go immediately to tummy time after you've had a bottle. Mm-hmm.
Because then you're gonna spit up
[00:16:33] Diane Matthews: mm-hmm.
[00:16:33] Leslie Corbell: Everywhere. So we have table time and books and things immediately after the bottle. Yeah. And then we move to the floor and play. Mm-hmm. And that gets him hungry and tired and ready for the next round. So it's been really helpful in that regard to me. I think another thing I've learned, and I, as far as we're talking about understanding baby's cues, is knowing whenever they are.
Finished with the bottle, you know, so he drinks a full [00:17:00] bottle each time and he lets me know when he is done.
[00:17:03] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:04] Leslie Corbell: And so it's always the same amount if he's short a half ounce or short an ounce. I let Madeline know that. I think that, and typically he then wants that missed ounce at an afternoon bottle.
So he's, it's, it's been really fun and I've learned a lot about baby communication.
[00:17:20] Diane Matthews: Baby communication, and that's important.
[00:17:21] Leslie Corbell: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's a res and so that's what I wanna bring into. It's a responsive. Type of care responding to their needs for sleep and to eating.
[00:17:30] Diane Matthews: Yes. Yes. And um, what we were gonna talk about a little bit was schedule and routine and my sample schedule.
What, what I had learned. Yeah. Thank the Lord. Pretty early on was, uh, more the feeding wake and sleep schedule, which, um, you know, I started trying to remember back, 'cause it's been so long. I mean, my youngest is 30 plus now, so it's been quite a few years. [00:18:00] Uh, but you know, that. This method is still very alive today.
Mm-hmm. A lot of people are still doing this method and I thought, well, what's the purpose of this? Um, and I think the purpose is to help and remember, this isn't a rule, it's a tool. Because, you know, I started thinking back, did I do this all the time? Well, of course not. You know, it's just, it's almost like, well, we have a goal to work out every day and if we're sick we just don't do it.
But we get back on the bandwagon and we, you know, okay, what's my goal? And it's the same thing with this, 'cause we're gonna talk about distractions later on. It's just kind of what, what's my goal and what's the purpose of it? So the whole idea is of, of feeding First is. And this helped me so much. Mm-hmm.
Because Feeding First, it's the baby's alert. Ready to eat and the, this tummy's empty and it can eat a full bottle. Mm-hmm. It won't be snacking, which my first child snacked and snacked and snacked and snacked [00:19:00] and that was not good for the baby or for mommy. So that, that feeding first will allow that baby to fill that belly, you know, completely.
And um, and then the baby. The other thing is, you know, the baby learns to, uh, fall asleep because you know, you're feeding, you're awake, you're awake, you're gonna play, do whatever later on. Not when they're infant, but then they're gonna fall asleep. A bottle. So they're gonna learn how to self-soothe or without the mommy eventually, you know, post three months, four months, whatever you, six months, whatever you choose to do that.
And then I thought this was a real big one. And, um, it helps you differentiate the cues between being hungry and, um, being sleepy. Because if you're kind of following that feeding, waking, sleep. [00:20:00] You know, then that, you know that well, the child ate right when they woke up and then they play and then they're going to sleep.
Well, you know, you're looking for sleep cues, not hungry cues, you know, so clues, cues, I always get that confused. Clues are cues, you know, but it is cues. So anyway, for me, simplified the, the method and the same thing. It's just to create order. And for my little simple brain, it was just three things. If it got, if I got distracted, if I got off balance, it's like it's not a rule, it's a tool, and I could go back to it that it made sense for, for our schedule.
[00:20:42] Leslie Corbell: In this episode, we are talking about birth through 12 months. 12 months, yeah. And it changes as your baby grows. And that's why I think it's so helpful to keep a written schedule.
[00:20:54] Diane Matthews: Oh yeah, definitely.
[00:20:55] Leslie Corbell: Through your day. So that you learn those cues.
[00:20:58] Diane Matthews: Yeah. '
[00:20:58] Leslie Corbell: cause babies will drop [00:21:00] a nap. Oh my goodness. They'll drop a feeding.
I mean, you're working, you're going from a 24 hour feedings. Sleeping cycle to, you know, more daytime feeding. So there's a lot that there's a lot of change that's happening here. Yeah. And I, and that's why it's so helpful to write it down.
[00:21:17] Diane Matthews: And I did wanna say this. Yeah. Write it down. Or, you know, there's so many apps out there that you can just plug it in on your phone.
Yeah. So many young or. Girls with young children, they just use apps. Yeah. And they just plug it in their apps. My app was pen and paper.
[00:21:31] Leslie Corbell: Yeah.
[00:21:31] Diane Matthews: Your, your app is pen and paper?
[00:21:32] Leslie Corbell: Well, it's my phone so I can, so it's a shared document with my daughter. Oh,
[00:21:36] Diane Matthews: okay. So it is,
[00:21:37] Leslie Corbell: so then she sees
[00:21:37] Diane Matthews: it. Yeah. Yeah. Sees my phone.
So whatever works. But yeah, I would, I would definitely say write it down so that they will know for sure. So let's talk about disruptions. Mm-hmm.
[00:21:47] Leslie Corbell: Yeah.
[00:21:47] Diane Matthews: You know, what are some different disruption? Interruptions. Mm, disruptions interruptions. Either one
[00:21:53] Leslie Corbell: occur. Some nights it might feel like an eruption.
That's
[00:21:59] Diane Matthews: right, too. [00:22:00] All those words
[00:22:01] Leslie Corbell: work, huh? Yeah.
[00:22:02] Diane Matthews: Uh,
[00:22:03] Leslie Corbell: well there are the, there are the big, the typical common ones like illness. Oh yeah. Teething. Gas in their tummy. Yeah. It's things like that can occur to cause disruption. You said
[00:22:16] Diane Matthews: illness, but that's real common in little ones.
[00:22:18] Leslie Corbell: Yeah.
[00:22:19] Diane Matthews: Yeah.
[00:22:19] Leslie Corbell: Things like that.
But there are are also some developmental milestone ones that occur. What it, was it four months? Six?
[00:22:25] Diane Matthews: Yes.
[00:22:26] Leslie Corbell: Six months, eight to 10 months, 12 months. I mean, that's practically the whole year. I
[00:22:30] Diane Matthews: know. Well, but right at four months is like the first Yes, big one. Yeah. So like my youngest grandson right now is four, like just moving through the four months.
Okay. Big. Regression.
[00:22:43] Leslie Corbell: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:43] Diane Matthews: And it's kinda like Uhoh, that's the first big one. And you kind of go, what's going on? But yeah, that's a big one. And it's their brain's really developing and you, I thought you, uh, communicated it real clear, just like if you have a big project, but they're so curious and they're learning new things.
I like the way you described [00:23:00] it. Well, that's from
[00:23:00] Leslie Corbell: Madeline. That was from her. And then she came up and she said, well, you know. When she was looking at Samuel having, he was working on, uh, I think it was when he was pulling to stand, she said, you know, and I understand that because if I have a project or a presentation at work, I might stay up all night or, or wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it and practicing it and going over.
And so just like a, a baby would when he's, and, and part of it can be that they're so proud to learn something and so curious about it and makes
[00:23:27] Diane Matthews: sense to
[00:23:28] Leslie Corbell: me. Yes. And so her comment was, you know. You can balance some of that if you shift your perspective and think, I'm gonna be so happy when my baby unveils this new milestone to me.
They're working on it, they're so happy about it.
[00:23:43] Diane Matthews: Well, and you really think, I mean, they, there really is scientific proof that there, there, there's a lot going on in their brain. It is a big brain, you know, uh, what, what would you call it, Leslie? Um. Growth spur, you know? Yeah. For lack of, of a, a better word.
Mild. Yeah. Yeah, [00:24:00] yeah. Uh, going on. But, um, yeah. Can you just see the little one? Oh, well, let's see. I stood up today. I'm gonna practice this in the crib tonight. That's right. And they, they did, and I'm gonna start crying so mom and daddy can come see, you know? So you just never know what's going on. But yeah, they're gonna happen.
And, um. Yeah, they're just maybe not gonna wanna take their nap that day and they're gonna look around and be more curious. Mm-hmm. So actually, uh, I watched Benny just a couple of days ago and yeah, he was just looking around. He was breaking his neck, looking around, so I pulled out the stroller and just strolled them around the whole house and just pointed out different things and went outside and he loved it.
You know, it's just, they're curious.
[00:24:40] Leslie Corbell: Yeah.
[00:24:41] Diane Matthews: And so, you know, as we mentioned earlier, change. Change is learning. That was my, my degree was, uh, education. And that's the one thing that they said, you know, learning is changing, you know, it's changing things. You're just gonna develop and change. Mm-hmm. So they're learning.
[00:24:57] Leslie Corbell: They are. And it's so fun, so, so precious, so [00:25:00] sweet. Mm-hmm. And you know, you talk about education and so sometimes I think it can be helpful when we're going through these types of things like sleep routines. Feeding times. Sometimes we just need some education ourselves on what are typical amounts of food that a, that a baby's gonna eat during the day.
How many bottles, how many ounces? How much can their bellies hold? Mm-hmm. You know? 'cause you don't wanna overfeed because then you're gonna get a lot of spit up.
[00:25:28] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:28] Leslie Corbell: But it, so you don't want to, um. You wanna start learning how much sleep do they need if they start, if you start having struggling with, with nap time or anything.
So we thought we'd include a little bit of that about mm-hmm. What are the, the amounts of time. Yes. And that, and so baby sleep needs by age newborn to three months, 14 to 17 hours per 24 hours. That can kind of give you a ballpark to know what you're shooting for. Um. They could only be awake seven hours.[00:26:00]
I
[00:26:00] Diane Matthews: know. Is that like, is that something a little bitty baby? You know, it's seven hours. That's it.
[00:26:05] Leslie Corbell: And that's a good thing to know. I know. And be aware of with newborn. Because otherwise you might be thinking, oh my goodness is, is my baby. Okay. Well, they never wake up.
[00:26:12] Diane Matthews: And then if you just let 'em sleep and sleep and sleep, then they're not gonna get enough nutrition.
Yeah. That's why the pediatrician says, wake them up.
[00:26:19] Leslie Corbell: Yes. Every two hours and
[00:26:20] Diane Matthews: give '
[00:26:21] Leslie Corbell: em a bottle,
[00:26:21] Diane Matthews: wait to feed. They need that. Nutrition. So
[00:26:24] Leslie Corbell: four to 12 months, they kind of go with more like 12 to 16 hours per 24 hours,
[00:26:29] Diane Matthews: but not a whole lot more. Mm-hmm. Yeah. They're not awake a whole lot more after that.
[00:26:32] Leslie Corbell: Yeah.
Um, and, and these can vary by child and, and then feeding needs by age 'cause that, you know, we wanted to include feeding with the sleep training because that's an important consideration. It
[00:26:44] Diane Matthews: goes hand in hand
[00:26:45] Leslie Corbell: in hand, hand in hand. During this first year. It really does. Uh, so. Most newborns will eat every two to three hours and drink one to two ounces of milk.
When they reach two weeks, the amount increases. Um, so we [00:27:00] talked about here, since newborn sleeps so much, some pediatrician will encourage you, waking them up. And as your baby grows, your stomach gets bigger, they'll gradually eat more. And I think this is a big goal 'cause you wanna start reducing those nighttime feedings, but they've gotta then eat enough during the day Yes.
To do so if they get the calories because, and then, because that's the most important thing. We wanna make sure they're getting their nutrition.
[00:27:21] Diane Matthews: Yeah. And then, uh, six months, uh, introducing soft foods. You can, yes. But don't. Mm-hmm. Eliminate or back out right on the milk or you know, the bottle.
[00:27:33] Leslie Corbell: And I'm gonna add in there, I actually didn't give soft foods to Madeline until she was a year because breast milk had all the nutrition that a baby needed.
Mm-hmm. It still is what they want you to mostly give. And I thought, you know, if God created that and provided this for young children to grow. I'm just not even gonna bother. So I actually didn't,
[00:27:50] Diane Matthews: some things that I read though was, um, if they're, if they're watching and they're so interested and they're grabbing the food, why not?
Right? I mean, [00:28:00] it's just introducing them to it, but don't. You know, uh, substitute that for Right, right. The breast milk. Right. Or the milk. It's for
[00:28:08] Leslie Corbell: fun. If you wanna do it, it's something you wanna do. Do it. Yeah. But it's not a, a must, but don't
[00:28:13] Diane Matthews: substitute
[00:28:14] Leslie Corbell: the bottle.
[00:28:14] Diane Matthews: Yeah, for sure.
[00:28:14] Leslie Corbell: For nutrition needs.
[00:28:15] Diane Matthews: So, so good.
That's great information. And once again, with change, you know, all this disruption, um, you know, invite, change, invite it, uh. That is what their life will be characterized as children observe, and we're gonna talk about it, observation, wisdom, and discernment. Uh, so that you can appropriately create the atmosphere for them to, uh, demonstrate and, and walk through that change instead of trying to hold them back, you know?
Mm-hmm. I think that's a part of being a mom and even a grandmother. Mm-hmm. You know, just letting them venture out. Don't try to keep 'em back. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes, you [00:29:00] know, moms wanna do that, you know. So, um, let's see. Other, I
[00:29:04] Leslie Corbell: think we were talking about disruptions too. Mm-hmm. I wanna kind of go back to that 'cause we didn't really fully cover disruptions.
We talked a little bit about, um, some that can occur with the developmental milestones and with the illness, but how to handle those disruptions because I don't, I don't think we should walk past disruptions without giving some. Suggestions as to how to handle those.
[00:29:28] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:28] Leslie Corbell: Because I think that's what sleep training is all about really.
Okay. If you think about it. Okay. Um, or, or at least in some people's eyes, that's why they go, that's why they seek out help with sleep training. 'cause I don't know what to do when these disruptions occur. And so I think first the perspective shift of, you know, they're gonna occur, even if you go do sleep training, you're still gonna have disruptions.
Like we said, just welcome the change. Yes, welcome. That comes along. But, uh, when Samuel was going through some, one of his. I don't remember [00:30:00] if it was the six month regression. Must have been right in there, six to eight, one of those 2, 8, 8 month regression. It was eight month, 4, 6,
[00:30:09] Diane Matthews: 8,
[00:30:10] Leslie Corbell: 10, 1 of the many, whatever you wanna call it, one of the many Uhhuh.
Um, she began going to his crib and patting him, reassuring him in a soothing voice. You're mommy's here. You are safe. It's time to go back to sleep. Only picked him up if he cried for a prolonged amount of time, let's say 10 minutes. And then she picked him up to reset him and then put him back down. Pat, pat, pat, pat, pat.
And he went to sleep. That was one night of doing that. And I said, well, you know, Diane one time said it might take three nights and second night. He slept.
[00:30:50] Diane Matthews: Yeah.
[00:30:51] Leslie Corbell: And he actually woke up but put himself back to sleep. So I think I wanna include that just to say these nights are gonna happen. [00:31:00]
[00:31:00] Diane Matthews: Oh, definitely.
[00:31:00] Leslie Corbell: I mean, there's gonna be the disruption, there's a way to, to greet that moment.
[00:31:06] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:06] Leslie Corbell: And know that in a few nights it's gonna go back like as the way it was. That's right. And this may occur. Again, in another month. Mm-hmm. You may have another night like this and maybe two nights that happen like this.
Stay the course, stay the routine, be present in that moment, say a prayer. Mm-hmm. Out loud in that moment. Mm-hmm. For you, for the baby. For all who are there in the room.
[00:31:31] Diane Matthews: Yeah. This may not be necessary to say, but keep the lights off.
[00:31:35] Leslie Corbell: Yes.
[00:31:35] Diane Matthews: Keep it dark, keep it quiet, you know, keep it
[00:31:38] Leslie Corbell: soothing.
[00:31:40] Diane Matthews: Very soothing.
Yeah, I would just pat and not pick him up if I didn't have to. And yeah, so,
[00:31:47] Leslie Corbell: and if this is what I was gonna say a minute ago and a few, few nights later, she did say, well, I kind of miss our nighttime party. He doesn't,
[00:31:56] Diane Matthews: he doesn't get up anymore. He doesn't
[00:31:58] Leslie Corbell: anymore.
[00:31:59] Diane Matthews: That's
[00:31:59] Leslie Corbell: [00:32:00] funny. But we, I reassured her. She reassured me.
Maybe a week later that Oh, yes, actually he did get up for a party one night
[00:32:08] Diane Matthews: and they have many, many more years to experience those parties. Trust me. I did wanna say this too. Yeah. Uh, that research on Infants sleep shows that overt tiredness, and I, I wanna talk about this too. Mm-hmm. Can raise stress hormones in the child and make sleep more fragmented.
Mm-hmm. I believe it. I believe it. You know, remember. I've said this so much and my mama said this to me so much when my kids were younger, that a well-rested baby sleeps well. And you kind of go, okay, well duh. You know, but, but you know, if you think about it, how can a well-rested baby? How can you first, um, make sure that you have a well rested baby?
And I think that, that, that's what I wanna talk about for a little bit. Sure. [00:33:00] Um, and. I've heard, I've heard it many times and I've heard it since. Uh, but what I looked up and I researched some, some different, um, organizations like the, uh, the A a P and Harvard Center on Developing Sleep, uh, Chi Child Sleep and the National Sleep Foundation and Clinical Pediatric Sleep Specialists.
And the bottom line was, and, and. I think I say this because sometimes I hear, oh, well children, they're just gonna sleep. They don't really need guidance or help. Well, I, I just, I just wanna say, I wanna encourage anybody out there that thinks that, that they'll just sleep whenever, you know, we don't need to encourage that.
I think we do need to encourage children to sleep because this was their bottom line. Um. Infant infant sleep does develop [00:34:00] through growth plus guidance. We do need to guide them. So across medicine, neuroscience and lived experience, there's broad agreement that babies aren't meant to manage sleep on their own.
At first, how parents help may differ. Definitely, but offering guidance in the first year is widely understood as normal and loving. So I just, I, I just wanted to put that out there, just, um, to encourage mamas to keep trying to help whatever that looks like, you know?
[00:34:34] Leslie Corbell: Yeah. That, that's, that's nice. I think that's, that's very encouraging.
[00:34:38] Diane Matthews: Good. I want it to be encouraging.
[00:34:40] Leslie Corbell: Yes. Yes. Absolutely.
[00:34:41] Diane Matthews: Great.
[00:34:42] Leslie Corbell: I, I think too, you touched on something. In that, that we, I think we as moms could need help ourselves in that moment. And I think that's where we were going at the beginning with this whole idea of a shift of perspective.
[00:34:59] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:59] Leslie Corbell: Because sometimes it's, [00:35:00] we need to think about what we're bringing into this moment.
We are here to guide them. In these, the sleep and into the day and night and and under and ease them into the order and into our families, right, that we have. Sometimes I think we can bring things with us that may be the Lord is using this moment to. Strengthen something to grow something in you. Mm-hmm.
So that you can do that. So I think sometimes when moments are challenging, it can be because we're fighting something. Mm. And that there's something in us being exposed in that moment
[00:35:40] Diane Matthews: that needs to change.
[00:35:41] Leslie Corbell: That needs to change in this broken world. That's right. You know, because it should, God is a God of order and a God of peace.
Teaching your child to sleep and ease them into the day and night should be. A peaceful time and an [00:36:00] just an expected part of the day and of the routine, but it does sometimes get hard, which is why I think things like sleep training come about. So I would just encourage moms. I would've encouraged myself when I was, yeah, a mom of young children.
I can see it differently now as a grandmommy to a young child that we. It's just that whole responsiveness. Am I willing to see my child, to know my child? We're the experts, the moms are the experts of the child.
[00:36:32] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:32] Leslie Corbell: You know, your child, you study your child, you get their cues, you're communicating with them.
We've gotta step into that ourselves, I think.
[00:36:39] Diane Matthews: Yeah.
[00:36:40] Leslie Corbell: A little
[00:36:40] Diane Matthews: more. I would, while you were, I'm, I'm not, I didn't cut you off there. Yeah, no, go ahead. Well, 'cause what I was thinking when you were saying that it was like. Um, I was thinking back to when my first born, you know, I was, um, I didn't, I didn't know what I needed to know.
I wasn't slowing down. Um, just some things that needed to, I [00:37:00] didn't have a routine. I didn't have a rhythm, you know, I think the Lord was wanting to teach me so much and. Just, um, just to gain knowledge and wisdom and, you know, what's distracting me? There's, of course there's millions of distractions out there, but personally as a mom, what, what could be distracting you?
Uh, you know, we've mentioned social media and all that stuff. There's so much that can just fatigue, fatigue. I mean other, um, relationships, there's so much that can keep us away from being clear minded and hearted to observe what's going on with our, with our child. And so, uh, yeah, I think that's a good point that we need to, um, you know, bring up and talk, you know, just what we're mentioning is just we need to be able to observe.
And notice the [00:38:00] cues on our child. And if we're not, then there's some self-examining that needs to take place and we need to say, the Lord help me. Yes. You know, what is it that needs to change? Yeah.
[00:38:10] Leslie Corbell: I think that as he's designed it, we, as I said, again, I'm just gonna say it again, you can listen to all the experts.
[00:38:17] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:17] Leslie Corbell: And you can hear what they say. But really trust that you are the expert of your child. You have been. Given this child to stew or develop mm-hmm. Bring him up to the glory of the Lord. That's right. And really embrace that.
[00:38:35] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:35] Leslie Corbell: And, and have confidence.
[00:38:37] Diane Matthews: Yeah.
[00:38:37] Leslie Corbell: Have, have confidence that your baby's gonna let you know when they are hungry and when they are sleepy.
[00:38:42] Diane Matthews: Yeah.
[00:38:43] Leslie Corbell: And be ready to respond to that. With a loving, um, structure that you are setting up
[00:38:51] Diane Matthews: Yeah. For the child. Yeah. I think of the, uh, verse in James that says, God says, ask for wisdom and he'll freely give it to you. You know? So even if you think, oh, I [00:39:00] just, I don't, I don't see it. I don't understand it.
Well, ask the Lord, he'll give you wisdom for sure.
[00:39:09] Leslie Corbell: Well, I wanna close with a scripture in. That's Psalm 1 39, 13 through 16 for you formed my inward parts. You knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you for I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works. My soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed substance in your book were written. Every one of them. The days that were formed for me when as yet there was none of them. And so I just wanna tell all the moms, your baby is fearfully and wonderfully made. Amen and knitted together in your womb. You know your child. Your child is unique.
Gift to the world. For God's story, a [00:40:00] story of of redemption, a story of salvation that Jesus Christ was sent for you, for your baby. To restore us in relationship That's right. To redeem us for God the father. And I just, I, I think when we can step back, see that everybody's picture of this zero to 12 month period of time, as far as sleeping goes.
Is gonna look different every, every story. But if we can look back and see the bigger story that God has created and have faith in him that he is seeing through all these details, and as you said, we'll give you wisdom for this. Mm-hmm. In this moment to zoom out. And don't get lost in the weeds. That's right.
This time flies so fast. It does fly
[00:40:50] Diane Matthews: by.
[00:40:51] Leslie Corbell: It does fly by.
[00:40:52] Diane Matthews: Yeah.
[00:40:52] Leslie Corbell: So much.
[00:40:53] Diane Matthews: So let, I'll just close this in prayer.
[00:40:55] Leslie Corbell: Okay.
[00:40:56] Diane Matthews: Thank you. Thank you for children. Lord. Children are a [00:41:00] blessing from you. May we guide them with love and truth as you want us to. I pray for children who are less fortunate. Um. In less fortunate situations, Lord provides sufficient care, love, safety, nutrition, and sleep for each one of them.
And may we be quick to help those in need and be grateful for the little ones that you have given to us. Lord, give us wisdom and discernment to raise them up in your love and admonition. And it's in Jesus's powerful name that we pray. Amen.
[00:41:38] Leslie Corbell: Thanks for listening. Check out our Instagram at the Mind of a Child Pod, or you can email us at the Mind of a Child podcast@gmail.com.