Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Every parent has wondered: Am I doing this right?
In a world full of parenting advice, strong opinions, and endless information online, it can be hard to know who to trust. Hosted by clinical psychologists, researchers, and moms, Dr. Leslie Roos and Dr. Lianne Tomfohr-Madsen, You're Doing It Right is a podcast for parents who want trustworthy information without the judgment. As parents of young children themselves, Leslie and Lianne understand the joys, challenges, and total chaos that come with parenting, bringing both professional expertise and humor to every conversation.
Each episode features conversations with experts about the questions families are actually asking, from sleep and screen time to behaviour, emotions, relationships, and family wellbeing. Together, they explore what the research really says, what it means for everyday family life, and how to cope when things don’t go exactly to plan.
This podcast is not about perfect parenting. It is about helping families feel more confident, more supported, and a little less alone. The are so many wonderful ways to parent and chances are, you're doing an amazing job.
~You're Doing It Right podcast was supported by funding from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada (SSHRC)~
Narration
Welcome to the Parenting Podcast, You’re Doing It Right. If you've ever found yourself awake at 3 a.m. wondering whether you're doing something wrong, this episode is for you. Hosted by acclaimed psychologist Dr. Leslie Ruse and Dr. Leanne Tomfer Madsen, this episode of You're Doing It Right tackles one of parenting's most searched and stress-inducing topics: sleep. Filled with research-backed guidance.
Practical strategies and plenty of reassurance, this conversation will help you navigate sleep with greater confidence, compassion, and a little less stress.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (00:42)
I wanna tell this story of when you were trying to keep Leo in his room and you were sending me like constant text messages just sitting on the floor outside his bedroom, just being like, You gotta go back in there, bud.
Dr. Leslie Roos (00:54)
And it was it was going well. But then, you know, we've been away for the past week and so now it not last night did not go well again. That's also normal. Yeah.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (01:02)
And then they get a tooth…and then you're like, all right, well, there goes the next two weeks.
Dr. Leslie Roos (01:10)
Welcome to You're Doing It Right, the podcast that's here to remind you that even when it doesn't feel like it is a parent, you probably are. I'm Dr. Leslie Roos, a clinical psychologist and professor at the University of Manitoba. My work focuses on supporting parent mental health and strengthening family relationships, starting as early as pregnancy. I spend my days researching what helps families thrive. And when I'm not at work or even while I'm still at work, I'm also a mom of three wonderful, chaotic, super busy kids. So I'm right there in it with you.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (01:39)
And I'm Dr. Lianne Tomfohr-Madsen. I'm a clinical psychologist and a professor at the University of British Columbia. I study parent mental health, sleep, and early family well-being. In my lab, we look at how stress and early experiences shape both parents and kids. I'm also a mom of two kids, so I'm right here with you.
Dr. Leslie Roos (01:58)
Between us, we've spent decades in research, clinical work, and supporting families trying to answer one big question. So, in this podcast, we'll talk all about that research and work.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (02:09)
And turn it into practical, usable strategies you can try in your real everyday life.
Dr. Leslie Roos (02:14)
This is you're doing it right.
A really common challenge that I hear from new parents, also experienced parents, is that they're not sleeping well or they feel like they haven't had a decent night's sleep in three years. It's hard to even know what normal sleep looks like anymore. And I think that's something that so many people can relate to.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (02:34)
Yeah, and because when your sleep is off, everything can feel a little bit harder than it needs to. I think we all know that when we haven't had a good night's sleep for one night or for three months, your patience can be lower, emotions can run higher, and even small moments can start to feel overwhelming. And when your kids aren't sleeping well, parents generally aren't either.
Dr. Leslie Roos (02:56)
And I think so many parents wonder, is this my fault? Am I doing something wrong? Is there something wrong with my kid? And that's especially true because there's so much conflicting advice out there about what good sleep is supposed to look like.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen
And parents looking for sleep advice don't have to look very far. Open social media and you'll quickly find an endless stream of experts, influencers, and well-meaning strangers all sharing their thoughts on how kids should sleep. The challenge? Not everyone is saying the same thing - it can be so confusing. Take a listen.
Social Media Montage
Singing…
“Sleep has 60 million views, and so many of you sent it to me that I had to comment. Till what age should the child then sleep with the mom and dad if it all's seven? Where'd you come up with that number? ⁓”
“Some people just inside their bed that I think they sleep on. not sure who's sleeping on that bed. Just keeps coming back. Most of all people said remember everything is a phase. Or maybe they said maze. Maybe they said set up a maze room if you set up a gate. Maybe it was bait if…I'm not sure maybe the kid and the parent and the dog, or are they carrying them back? At which point the child remember. You'll be amazed. If your children can't get to your room if you put out bait little candies, they get distracted on their way to get a time for you. Yada yada.”
Singing…
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (04:00)
The truth is that sleeping challenges and how kids sleep differently from how their parents want them to is just really common. And that's especially true in the early years. It's not always a sign that something's wrong. It's just part of normal development.
Dr. Leslie Roos (04:15)
We want to move away from rigid expectations about my child has to sleep this way, or if they don't look like this, then something's wrong, towards a more compassionate, realistic understanding of sleep.
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (04:26)
I it's really important to always go back to what families want for themselves because there's so much chatter and so many opinions about what you should do for sleep.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (04:38)
We're really excited to be joined today by Dr. Elizabeth Keyes, who is a dear, dear friend of mine and an absolute expert in parent and child sleep.
Dr. Leslie Roos (04:47)
She is an assistant professor in the School of Nursing at the University of British Columbia, Okanagan, and a registered nurse with a strong background in community and public health. She leads the Slumber Research Lab, where her work focuses on infant sleep, parent-child relationships, and the mental health and well-being of families. Her research is grounded in developing practical, evidence-based solutions, including digital tools that support families in everyday life.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (05:12)
And what's so compelling about her work is that it reframes how we think about sleep, not just as a routine or a milestone, but as something deeply connected to early relationships, development, and overall family well-being.
Dr. Leslie Roos (05:25)
And her research looks at how we can support healthier sleep in a way that strengthens relationships, which can often get overlooked.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (05:32)
Ultimately, her work is about creating accessible, family-centered supports that help both parents and children thrive.
Dr. Leslie Roos (05:39)
Thank you so much for joining us today, Elizabeth. Could you introduce yourself a little bit? You know, who are you? Where do you come from? What do you do?
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (05:48)
I am a registered nurse and an assistant professor in the School of Nursing at UBC Okanagan campus. So we're located on the traditional unceded territory of the Silk Okanagan Nation. My clinical background is in public health and community health. So I used to work in nurse-led well-child clinics in public health, and that's where we do vaccinations and growth and development kind of conversations with parents.
And as well as also on the school health team where we did a lot of health promotion.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (06:19)
Elizabeth, I know this story, but I'm wondering if you would share with all of our listeners how you became interested in sleep.
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (06:26)
yeah, this is a story. So it's a little bit of personal and a little bit of professional. So when I started my nursing career, I didn't have any children. And then after about five years, decided to try something new and you know, create a human. And over the course of my own parental leave, I was really struck by how hard sleep was. And I remember really vividly thinking, like, ⁓ my gosh.
How do people cope with this? I also remember thinking at the time, I'm a public health nurse. I should know what to do when you have this trouble sleeping. And then when I came back to work after my parental leave was over, the health services was implementing a new policy about really strict messaging on bed sharing. And over the previous year I had
really realize that a lot of people, you know, some people want a bedchair and and co-sleep because that's what they want to do. It's their parenting philosophy, it's their cultural practice. Also a lot of people do it in response to not being able to get any sleep. And so it's a coping strategy. And at the time, like this is 15 years ago, the public health messaging was like, no, never, thou shalt never co-sleep. And I remember thinking, how could I tell families
that message, but then also as like their public health nurse not offer any supports. I remember that as a pivotal moment of, you know, I'd been thinking about going to graduate school and doing some research and I was like, I think we need to do better as nurses and we need to be able to offer more supports for people who are struggling with sleep because I cannot in good conscience just say, No, you can't do that and then walk away. Like that's so harmful. And
You know, in subsequent research we have heard from people that they just don't bring up their sleep concerns with their healthcare provider because they don't want to get that lecture. And so a big part of my kind of mission since then has been to develop better supports for for families, especially with young children who are struggling with sleep.
Dr. Leslie Roos (08:46)
Sleep is always an adventure. It's rarely straightforward. When you talk about supports for families, what are some of those supports that you try to develop that you think are can be helpful for families?
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (08:59)
It's really important to always go back to what families want for themselves because there's so much chatter and so many opinions about what you should do for sleep. And I think one of the key things is really helping parents navigate through all that information. I did a study and we called it information overwhelm to try to pick out like what really is important to them and what's sustainable to them. Because there's many ways of doing
things and you know, I don't think that there's one perfect way. Routines are often very, very helpful for sleep and not just bedtime routines, but daytime routines. And I think a lot of parents already know that. The problem I think that a lot of families encounter is the implementation of those things in the practice. And so I think coming up with troubleshooting plans and making plans in advance for like then what is helpful.
There's so much stuff like and it depends on the age group too. Like another thing I think that is really helpful for parents of younger children, like babies, is thinking about their cues. Babies also have sleepy cues. And it's a lot easier to put a baby down for sleep when they're not already crying and have completely gone into that state where they need help just down regulating themselves. So
understanding some of the earlier, more subtle signs of sleep E cues when your baby needs a break. I I think is helpful too, especially in the early early periods.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (10:36)
Let's talk about why sleep feels so hard. What are some of the reasons that families struggle with sleep from the day you bring your baby home all the way till the time they enter preschool?
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (10:45)
One of the reasons is you don't know until you don't know, like until you encounter it. So I don't think we do a good job preparing families for what it might feel like when especially they have a newborn and they're trying to figure out people don't know. I remember my own prenatal classes. We didn't really talk very much about what sleep actually looks like in a family. Another thing that makes it challenging is
Everybody is trying to do it by themselves. We've done some research that's starting to show that social support is really, really key in being able to navigate sleep challenges and the differences between baby sleep and adult sleep. And so whether or not that's good social support and connections and practical supports with a parenting partner or other family members or your community so that you can have a little bit of
rest even if it's not timed to when the baby is resting. I think that's that's really important. And I think kind of the third thing is that we hear a lot of perfect scenarios and you should do this and you should do that. And I think that can be really hard for parents because you can't actually control sleep. So you can't control your own sleep and you can't control if your baby or young child sleeps.
Dr. Leslie Roos (12:05)
I can remember like a passing comment while I was eight months pregnant of someone saying, like, well enjoy your sleep while you can, because you're never gonna sleep again. I was like, well, that's probably not. And also that's not super helpful to not be preparing women who are most commonly the primary caregiver about, you know, what it's like for their sleep to be so damaged. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (12:28)
Well, and I also wanna just briefly mention when you're pregnant you're going you're sleep deprived, you don't have good quality sleep, your body is going through these tremendous changes. I remember talking to a parent and they were explaining it like you're running this marathon after with a new baby and you haven't slept well in months already. So that's really important to think about and address. And also I think we tend to feel bad asking for help and like we should be
The perfect parent or the perfect mother, and the perfect mother is self-sacrificing. And so of course you don't need sleep, but you know, it's really important. I've had so many parents talk to me about the difference between getting good sleep and how much of a difference that means to their parenting. We know that sleep is really tied into mental health as well. And I think we've done some research, and if you help get the parents the sleep that they need,
It actually can either prevent or reduce the depression symptoms later on and that's pretty long long lasting and that's a pretty powerful tool.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (13:32)
We know that sleep is both important and also challenging to have control over when you're parenting young kids. What do common sleep struggles look like?
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (13:41)
We know quite a few parents and families encounter kind of small or very small sleep problems. We know probably at least half of families will encounter some sort of sleep problem or difficulty in the first year, what is a severe sleep problem. Oftentimes in babies at at least it's their babies waking up more than three times a night and or they're spending like more than an hour awake at night or they're sleeping like
kind of less than like nine-ish hours. All of those kind of indicators are usually hanging with parental perception of a sleep problem. And so if those things are happening and you're not able to feel like you're able to do anything about it, that's when I think it's more of a problem than just your average kind of speed bump, like sleep speed bump.
Dr. Leslie Roos (14:37)
You know, you talk about the importance of getting sleep and all those pieces, and your kid not waking up tired. You know, personally, I had one kid who had colic, and so we would regularly be up for like two hours at night.
And just screaming, not able to go to sleep, but like very distressed and you know, somewhat dissociative as parents. It's like a lot to manage. And one of the things that was a concern too is like my kids not sleeping. And so as a parent, you know, I also feel really guilty about that. What do you say to parents who are, you know, doing their best? Like, are they messing up their kids if their kids aren't sleeping one?
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (15:08)
I don't think parents are messing up their kids if their kids not sleeping well because I'm gonna go back to the original point, you can't actually control if your baby's sleep. You can't. You can set up the conditions and try to make it happen, but ultimately like you it's just like pooping, like you cannot make them poop. Like you're gonna set up the conditions and you're gonna do everything that is within your scope of control to do, but ultimately like it's their job to fall asleep. You can kind of do it for them.
sometimes, especially, you know, I you're bouncing on the ball or trying to soothe them. But parents are not like it's it's not their fault if their kids are not sleeping well. For families who, you know, baby has colic or is crying a lot, the baby is kind of a fussy eater also, baby's kind of a fussy sleeper. Like these you know, you can have one of these, which sometimes you can cope with, but if you have all three of them, that is really hard. It's really hard on you. It's
Probably really hard for that little person that's trying to figure it out. And I think in those situations, we really need to do a much better job as a community and health services of helping them and giving them supports. Because when you have kind of all those things happening all at once, you're not able to get the sleep that you need. So you might not have the patience. You might just be kind of walking through your day without actually in
being able to enjoy it. And I think in those situations respite care can really be helpful. So again, it that's where you links to the social support and, you know, whether or not it's extended family members, partners, so that you can each take a break or something more formal so that, you know, even having a babysitter, gr grandma, grandpa, or someone to trade off with so that you can actually get the sleep that you need is helpful. And that's a super hard situation, Leslie. I'm sorry that you had to go through that.
Dr. Leslie Roos (17:02)
Really good that I had my second kid to not make me too confident as a child psychologist that you can follow the books and everything will be easy. We don't have control over everything. And you know, the best that we can do is sort of try to set up these conditions to encourage things to go the right way, bring in some routine, take care of ourselves. Those same principles actually apply across a lot of different parenting things. You know, in the context of, you know, with my colicky tricky baby experience, it was one of those times where
I never thought I would co-sleep, but I ended up doing some safe co-sleeping because I actually couldn't control it. I was falling asleep like on top of my baby because I couldn't stay awake enough to put him down in the crib safely. So that was interesting to figure out that a little bit. And then at about five months, we did like classic sleep training, which I also never thought I would do. And it was magic. He actually started sleeping like 12 hours a night until he till now, till he's eight years old. He's my best sleeper. So it challenged so many assumptions that I had.
About shoulds or what type of parent I wanted to be. I feel like sleep is one of those areas where it's so emotionally charged for families.
News excerpt
Anchor…A new poll shows a child with nearly half of us not getting enough more.
Sleep can impact. Gwen Baumgauner has more…
Reporter
The latest poll from the National Sleep Foundation children's sleep habits can affect the overall family's sleep health. Families need to encourage healthy sleep behaviors together, according to Dr. Joseph Djurges.
Dr. Djurges…That by definition, it's something that happens consistently. It shows the best bedtime routine is simply consistently.
Reporter…Gwen Baumgauner CBS News
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen
These are such great points. And I want to talk about navigating through this complex subject because sleep can feel like a really personal struggle, but it's actually incredibly universal.
Dr. Leslie Roos (18:46)
I thinkthat what a lot of parents don't always know is that there's a huge range of what's normal. So newborns, for example, can sleep like up to 18 hours a day, but it's only gonna be short stretches of time. So for some kids it might be three to four hours. That doesn't sound too bad, but for some like my firstborn, it was forty five minute sleep cycles. She never, ever napped the entire time.
And like the mental pain of being desperate for like an hour and a half nap so I could get anything done. And then it would be like 40 minutes, and I would be like so on edge, and she would wake up and like maybe I could have left let her chill, but I didn't. And then she woke up and it was so draining. And so that's that like frustration, the difference between how you want it to be and how it is that can be overwhelming. And other people have kids who are great sleepers, and then they get a bit older, they start climbing out of their crib, and all of a sudden.
They're cool sleeping or bedtime's really hard again. And so all of this is normal. All of this is like aligned with biological expectations, but it's so crazy making that we it's something we think we really need to talk about.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (19:51)
Yeah, and it's not about doing it perfectly, it's about repetition and predictability. So sleep tends to build more sleep and that continues as kids grow. Todders, for example, still need around 11 to 14 hours a day. We know that infants can sleep about 18 hours a day, but as kids get older, routines become even more important.
Dr. Leslie Roos (20:10)
And in the preschool years, you know, we see more things like bedtime resistance, fears about waking up in the night, night terrors, wetting the bed, all sorts of things can disrupt sleep with totally normal ways. So things can shift pretty quick.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (20:23)
That's why it's important to understand that sleep isn't just a behavioral issue. It's relational, it's developmental, and it's deeply connected to what's happening in your family system.
Dr. Leslie Roos (20:33)
And I think that's one of the reasons why I love Dr. Key's work so much, because her research in the slumber lab, it's not just it's like a routine or something to fix, but it's a core part of family well being. And the goal's not to get sleep to look one way. It's about to figure out a way for family sleep that works for you.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (20:50)
Her work really highlights that sleep affects everything. Parent mental health, child development, and the relationship between parents and children.
Dr. Leslie Roos (20:57)
This is really moving away from a one size fits all approach with research focusing on personalized accessible supports for families that can work in real life and respond to all sorts of different situations that you might find yourself in.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (21:10)
And that's exactly what we're gonna dig into now. What's normal, what's helpful, and how to think about sleep in a way that feels a little less overwhelming.
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (21:18)
People like to think of this as like black and white and there's no gray in the middle. I think this has been at the root of a lot of the work I've done is helping families kind of think through what is most important to them and what their priorities are right now, helping translate some of the studies because some of the studies, you know, that people will be making claims about are out of context. And so really examining those
I think it really helps for families to have a trusted, credible source, whether or not that's like a family friend that has just gone through things or a healthcare provider that is knowing what they're talking about, like that, I think can be very reassuring for families in trying to figure out the best kind of approach for them. And also recognizing that situations might change. What you did at four months might not be working very well.
at nine months or you know three years.
Dr. Leslie Roos (22:18)
There's lots of right ways to do it. And if it's working for your family, it seems like you can survive taking care of yourself to a livable degree. That's okay. I always want to emphasize to families, you know, if it's really not working, there are a lot of other options that we can always talk about. There's lots of good ways to do it, but the one that your neighbor's doing or your sister did doesn't have to be the one that you're doing. I think
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (22:40)
As parents, you need the awareness of is this actually working for my family? Does it align with my values? Am I okay with this? Or am I ready to try something new? It can be challenging to try a new routine. And so what do you recommend?
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (22:54)
Probably the one thing that I do recommend is consistency. So I think thinking about like what you can actually change that is sustainable. Like, you know, it doesn't have to be forever, but like to see a change, you're probably looking at like at least two to four weeks of consistently kind of practice. Some babies will do it sooner. That's a nice but but like if you're just trying to change your routine, like
Really getting enough energy and like capacity to prepare yourself that you're just gonna you keep doing it, like you keep going and that change takes a little bit of time. What I often have observed is families who are in the thick of a lot of sleep deprivation, it's almost like you're in this whirlpool and you just can't get out of this continuous sleep deprivation. Nobody makes good parenting decisions at three AM
Especially if you're like, ⁓ now I'm gonna do this like it it really helps to like come up with a plan. It also, you know, and and the consistency and talking with your supports about like what actually feels good and what do you feel good about doing and what can you do to change. 'Cause even like sleep training can be very effective for a lot of babies. But what is not very effective is trying it and then being like, No, I can't do it and maybe maybe you needed to try it just to see if it would
work or not. So I generally recommend like, you know, small changes that are manageable, like, you know, and that you can make consistent
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (24:26)
I see a lot of people coming home from the hospital with a book that's telling them to start bedtime routines with their two-week old infant. And then sometimes I see those same people when their kid is three and they're still breastfeeding and co-sleeping. So I'm curious, when should you start bedtime routines at what age?
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (24:43)
After about four months or so around there, you can start introducing a bedtime routine. You can introduce your own bedtime routine too. It's can be really helpful for kind of general sleep health. You generally want it to be around 30 minutes or so, a reasonable bedtime routine that you can do consistently. You don't have to commit to it for 18 years. You could just commit to it for a couple months. It might change. If you have
a couple different people putting the baby to sleep. It's good that you're talking to each other about what the routine is so that there can be consistency. Consistent bed times and wake times. So we often think about consistent bed times. But you know what I think sometimes happens is families will get into, we had like a really bad night's sleep. And so then you let the the child kind of sleep in a little bit more to catch up because you feel bad and you want them to be rested. But what that does is it shifts their
biologic like their inner clock, their body clock a little bit, because now they have they've slept in maybe an extra hour, which was amazing in the short term for your morning. You actually got like maybe a cup of coffee uninterrupted. But consistent wake times is important. This is important for teenagers too, because they'll they sleep in a lot on the weekends and then they have trouble falling asleep Sunday nights. Routines are just good in general. So a lot of
Parents will sometimes want like an exact schedule and we tend to discourage a clock based schedule and maybe trying to follow a little bit more a routine based schedule. So less tied to the clock but more tied to like periods in the day. Getting enough physical activity during the day is helpful for kids too, so that they are tired. And I think it is important to know that
kids are a little bit more sensitive to the light in terms of that are emitted from screens. So making sure that there's no screens around them doesn't have to be their own screen. It can be our screens that we're on too can be one thing that can be helpful.
Dr. Leslie Roos (26:47)
If you find yourself in a situation where there's something about sleep routine that's really challenging, your kids in your bed every night at four and a half, which I have with one of my kids. I think parents are times we're like, is it too late? Is my kid always gonna have these challenges? Is it too late to try to start something new? Any thoughts there of if you're a parent who's, you know, sort of given up on improving some part of their their kid or family's sleep?
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (27:09)
It's never too late. But what I also think about is is it a problem for you or is it a problem for other people? And so if you enjoy your kiddo coming and snuggling at like, you know, four and a half years, I now grieve a little bit of that. I had a little bit of a snuggler and now they're not. They're too old and I'm like,
Dr. Leslie Roos (27:31)
Okay, so you would say like there's nothing wrong with that.
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (27:34)
Like well, if it's if it's working for you and you're able to do it safely and it's not stressing you out and something you like and you want to do, then it's not a problem. If it's a problem and you're tired and you're like, I just I just want my own bed, then what I would suggest is like thinking about maybe you don't have to make the big change all the way, like that they're never coming in your bed. But maybe there's a smaller change that you could make that maybe is a little bit easier. So
You know, maybe it's a pass. Like it depends, it's developmental too. Like maybe, you know, they get a pass that they can do it once that you can start to use different rewards to encourage them or incentives to encourage them to stay in their bed. If the problem is that they're not comfortable sleeping in their room, then maybe you could go to their room and help them learn how to be more comfortable. Maybe just even focus on the falling asleep in the first part of the night over time that usually will translate to
If they can do it at the start of the night, they probably can do it at later periods of the night when they have their little mini awakes or would just encourage that and then maybe try to think of different ways that you could encourage them to stay in their own space if it's a problem. I think we create so many problems with these shoulds. Like you should not do this, you should not do that. And if your family like sleep is so social culturally kind of shaped that if it's not a problem for your family, then
You don't have to tell anyone that you're doing it. Like
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (29:06)
Thank you for giving parents the space to see that there's not one right way to teach kids how to sleep, and that sleep can be really challenging. Tell us more about how we might imagine different approaches or possibilities.
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (29:18)
I think it's a balance between like this message of, you know what, you're doing it right. If it's not a problem for you, it's not a problem. But also like validating if it is a problem, you deserve attention to this matter and you should feel like you can ask for help.
Dr. Leslie Roos (29:34)
I also think of the like sleep when the baby sleep things and I'm like, I would like to like shower when the baby sleeps or drink a cup of coffee. There's like like a whole laundry list of things that I would also like to do while the baby's sleeping. So I that's another one that I always found unhelpful.
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (29:49)
Well it would be great, sure, if someone else is gonna unload my dishwasher for me. And I think then that just circles back into like how important the social support is for families because maybe you want someone to hold the baby so you can do all those things while they're awake so that you can actually sleep when they're sleeping. Or maybe you want someone just to take them for a walk so you can have a nap and you know they're safe. I remember having a shower. Put the baby down, you're like, Okay, they're asleep and then you go have your shower.
But had auditory hallucinations that they were crying and then you'd like run out and check and there's no there's no crying actually.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (30:28)
I'm
right here with you. It's amazing how your mind can play tricks on you, especially when you're sleep deprived. I hear this from parents a lot.
Dr. Leslie Roos (30:37)
Any key takeaways that you want to leave us with, things that you would really want to to say to a family that's struggling or wondering if they're doing it right when it comes to their kids' sleep?
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (30:47)
What we've heard in a lot of the research that we've done is like it's really important that if you're getting help and it should be non-judgmental, it should be culturally kind of humble and sensitive. So it's not just one right way of doing things. So I think my key takeaway for parents would be like you deserve that. You deserve nonjudgmental support. ⁓
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (31:10)
Exactly, parents deserve help. You should feel comfortable asking for help or seeking support or expertise.
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (31:16)
Yeah, and you deserve sleep. Like it's a basic human fun like we can squeeze it, but as parents we're always trying to focus on like what's best for the children. But you also deserve things that are good for you. And so it's it's okay to want those things, like sleep. Like it's a very basic thing. And yeah, if you know a a family that's going through it, reinforce that. That it's okay for them to w to want to sleep too. Like they don't need to be
self sacrificing at a cost to their health.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (31:47)
There's no magic button to just make sleep an easy thing.
Dr. Elizabeth Keys (31:51)
No, I would be a millionaire if there was.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (31:56)
I love the realness of this conversation. It just normalizes the fact that sleep is an issue for most of us. Well, all of us in some capacity, in some way or form.
Dr. Leslie Roos (32:05)
Yeah, for sure. And I think, yeah, that would be helpful to put in that like some of the other folks and influencers out there will be like licensed clinicians, but they're a little fringe or take things more into their own hands in terms of interpretation. And one of the things that we're trying to do that's a bit different is, you know, we are experts in this, we are clinicians and researchers here, but we also know that like if I was really had a question about sleep or screen time, because I don't personally research that as my core area, I would actually go to one of my friends and say, hey.
What does the research say on this? So it's like we're bringing really specific topic experts to these discussions with our frame.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (32:42)
If sleep's been hard lately, if you're exhausted, second guessing yourself, or wondering if you've done something wrong, we really want you to hear this. You haven't.
Dr. Leslie Roos (32:51)
There's no one perfect approach. Sometimes things are really hard and you're doing absolutely everything you can. So there's not even a perfect way to navigate things. Just trying to take small, thoughtful steps, trying something new when you feel really stuck, talking about it will help you figure out what fits your child and your family and the reality of your life right now.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (33:10)
When those small steps matter, they build over time. If this is something you're dealing with right now, you're not alone.
Dr. Leslie Roos (33:16)
So give yourself permission to let go of perfection and hold on to what feels supportive and sustainable and reasonable for you right now. Don't hesitate to ask for help or support.
Dr. Lianne Tomfohr Madsen (33:25)
And we'd really love to hear from you your stories, your questions, the parts that still feel messy.
Dr. Leslie Roos (33:30)
And next time on Your Doing It Right, we're stepping back to look at something bigger, family wellness, not just individual mental health, but how the relationships with the family and within your community shape how everyone is doing. Until then, take care of yourselves and each other. This is Your Doing It Right.
Narration
Listen to episodes from Your Doing It Right wherever you get your podcasts, including YouTube, and visit Your Doing It Right Podcast.ca. Connect, follow, and reach out to Your Doing It Right with your questions or comments on Instagram at Your Doing It Right Podcast.
Another Everything Podcast production. ⁓ Visit EverythingPodcast.com, a division of Patison Media. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast.