Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Orthodox Christian Parenting, hosted by Faithtree Resources Executive Director (and mom of four!) Michelle Moujaes, is a weekly podcast for parents and grandparents navigating the holy struggle of raising kids in the Orthodox Faith. Each episode offers honesty, encouragement, and practical wisdom from the Church—creating space to exhale, freedom from the pressure to be perfect, and openness to grow as you raise children who are deepening their knowledge and love of Christ.
Welcome back to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring the timeless wisdom of the church into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Mujaias, and I'm so glad that you're here with us today. And I'm especially excited because we have two familiar voices returning to the podcast, Paul and Cindy Karos from Minneapolis, Minnesota. If you've listened before, you'll remember that Paul and Cindy are lifelong Orthodox Christians. They're ministry leaders, they're sought after speakers, and they're dear friends of mine and my husband will lead.
Michelle Moujaes:Together, they've raised three children who not only remain really connected to the church, but who love the church and who live their faith with real joy and intentionality. Today, we're diving into a topic every parent wrestles with, gratitude and overcoming materialism. We live in a world that constantly tells our kids and us that more is the key to happiness. More stuff, more accolades, more accumulation, more awards. But how do we as Orthodox parents cultivate hearts of gratitude in our homes?
Michelle Moujaes:How do we teach our children to value people over possessions and Christ above all? Paul and Cindy have lived this out beautifully, not perfectly, but beautifully, and I can't wait for you to hear their wisdom today. Paul and Cindy, welcome back to the podcast.
Paul Karos:Yeah. It's great to be back, Michelle.
Michelle Moujaes:It's fun to be with you. And I just wanna start with the big picture, which is why is materialism such an issue that every generation faces?
Paul Karos:Well, you know, it's it's really the culture that we're in, and every culture probably has had different elements that were challenging to Orthodox Christians. Right now, materialism and I think now we can actually put in materialism and experiences are both this sort of cultural wave. And you said it well in your introduction that if you have more of them or more unique elements of them, you will be more content and you will be more happy and you'll have made it. You might even be more respected or more liked. And that's very intoxicating.
Paul Karos:So I think that's the culture that we're in. I think that's why as Orthodox families, we face it like everybody else does in our in our culture.
Michelle Moujaes:It's like there's this unwritten scorecard amongst parents. Right? Like, it's kinda like me against you. How many points do you have? And I think social media makes it way harder even still.
Cindy Karos:Absolutely. There's no question about it. And somehow, I think we need to look at ourselves when we think about parenting in a world like this. What's our motivation? Is it important to us to have everything?
Cindy Karos:Is it important that we have everything for our children? Because if that's where we start, then that's probably going to be taught to our children. And it's an important distinction to really think about and talk about as a couple.
Paul Karos:And I think you mentioned that part about the social media and whatnot. That has intensified it. No question.
Michelle Moujaes:For
Paul Karos:sure. Because seeing what other people have, that whole element of what gets created jealousy or some greed or whatever it might be is intensified by that you know, social media, public access to all of that and seeing who you think is all happy online and and things of that nature, of course, that's huge.
Michelle Moujaes:With this idea of more being so powerful in the world that we live in, what can Orthodox families do to actually, like, put the kibosh on that? I mean, the the we would have to have, I would say, not only an intentional plan, but a really well thought I mean, you're taking on the world. So what does that look like to try and change the tide on this Almost it feels like a need for all the things. If
Paul Karos:you start it in a simple way, it's to say as a family, our Orthodox faith and the fathers and saints of the church really do teach us that needs over wants is the movement that we want to head toward. I like that. We're going to have wants. Of course, we're going to have wants, and we're going to fulfill some of those wants. But that in terms of our family life, if we can guide our families more toward needs, in other words, your home, your food, your clothing, needs, that's where fruit is going to really come from.
Paul Karos:And to recognize that what the world teaches on this is not true. We have to be able to say as parents, you know what? This part of our culture, it just isn't true that if I have more experiences or unique experiences or if I have, you know, the most toys win, these types of things, they do not bring that kind of joy. And I and I got to tell you, my whole life has been in finance up up until my ministry work. And I was a Wall Street person for thirty five years, and I I was I lived in that world.
Paul Karos:You know, I had the five star hotels, the five star restaurants, first class travel, every type of sort of luxurious element I experienced for many years on my on my life on Wall Street. And I will tell you, it does not bring peace. I've experienced it firsthand. It doesn't bring contentious, and it doesn't make you more happy. It's really truly a lie of the world that we have to be able to say, look, we're not going to judge people at all.
Paul Karos:We can't do that. That's not right. But we can recognize that that lie that the world teaches is it just isn't true. And that's gonna help a great place to start.
Michelle Moujaes:Then help me understand this. If we wanna highlight for our kids that all the stuff doesn't bring happiness and all the stuff doesn't bring that piece that you spoke about, how do we find a balance? Is some of it okay? Like, for example, so let me let me tell you what's big here in Los Angeles culture. Everybody I know is on a traveling sports team or they are doing, like, junior Olympics.
Michelle Moujaes:Like, it's a big deal. You almost feel like you have to do that if you wanna get your kid into college. But Wow. Sports aren't bad. Traveling teams aren't wrong.
Michelle Moujaes:So what do you do with that? How do you find that balance and then teach it to your children that more is not the answer, but we can still participate in this life that, you know, God has put us in?
Paul Karos:In our upcoming book that we're working on, we we talk about what the church says is the middle way.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Paul Karos:That's where we thrive as Orthodox Christians is the middle way. We don't get extreme on either side. And you kind of said it there. You know, sports can be very good. There's incredible virtues to learn in sports, teamwork and obey your coach and give honest feedback to your coach and and be happy for your teammates and do your part and training all these things.
Paul Karos:These are very good virtues to learn. But the culture is way beyond the middle way. So we do have to be a little different than the culture. And we have to be willing to let go of what the what the culture may be teaching is what you said. Hey, if you don't make the top team, you're less than.
Cindy Karos:I would even take a step farther back. You know, I think it's important as parents that we start with what is our goal as parents. Our goal is to help ourselves, our spouse, and our children get to the kingdom.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Cindy Karos:Right? To be more Christ like. So for each of those things that seem to be getting out of control, is that getting us closer or farther away from our goal? But you need to have that goal to start with as as a couple. And you also need to know that it's a long journey.
Cindy Karos:Right? And so you may be doing some things early on when the kids are young, and when the kids get older, you might do things a little bit differently. But it's important to know that with all those crazy things that you mentioned, Michelle, it's you you need to ask yourself, am I going too far out of the way, and is that gonna help me get to the kingdom? Is it gonna help my kids get to the kingdom?
Michelle Moujaes:How will we know when we're too far out of the way? Because I know a lot of really faithful orthodox families that struggle with that balance. Right? So how how do you like, is there a template or a framework that you guys use to make decisions on whether or not you were outside of the middle way?
Paul Karos:Well, this is the beautiful part of our faith that, you know, we really do have the ability to look at any element of family life because family life is our arena. Family life is our arena to grow in Christ likeness, to struggle toward inner transformation in Christ. This is the arena we have. So the inspirational part of our faith is that every part of our life as a family, we can sit down and say, you know, what what would the church say about this? What would the Lord say about this?
Paul Karos:And let's look for the good, and let's stick to that. And then we'll know when we're off the middle way because there's little symptoms. You know, one of them is that your family just feels completely out of control. Yeah. It's too much.
Paul Karos:Or that our anxiety as parents about whether our kids are gonna make a team or not make a team. That was a big one we struggled
Cindy Karos:More of our issues
Paul Karos:than our kids. Yeah. Sure. You know? Right.
Paul Karos:And so it's it's really taking those little inventories on whatever element of life we're talking about. You started out with materialism. That'd be another one. You could take a little inventory of what, you know, where's our head at as parents on materialism? And do we feel like we have to have the newest toys, the newest everything else?
Paul Karos:And that's that's the best place to start because that will then help us with our own children. So I think you'll know you're off the middle way through some of these symptoms. You're not feeling right. Your anxiety levels are higher. Your frustration levels are higher.
Paul Karos:You're feeling out, you know, that there's nothing left in the tank. These things are good symptoms to say, okay, we don't have to panic here, but we do need to attend to this Right. And figure out as a couple what what's what's out of whack and what can we tweak?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. And also, are you going to church? Are you engaged in community life? You know, are you participating in the sacraments in the life of the church? I think those are good, like, practical calendar things.
Michelle Moujaes:You know, where's our money going? Are we working so hard to make every dollar so that we can buy the latest sports equipment for the traveling team? Like, those are great kind of litmus tests. But it makes me wanna ask then, is it wrong to want nice stuff?
Paul Karos:Is it wrong to want nice stuff? You know, without giving just a yes and a no, I think the the way we can look at it is, you know, where does our excitement come from? And where where do we get excited? If our excitement comes in our in our kids sense it that, hey, when we buy this new thing as parents, we that's our whole excitement instead of like, oh, this is going to be great for our family. Thank you, Lord.
Paul Karos:This is really gonna be helpful for our family, this purchase. But if it comes if our excitement is coming from material purchases or luxurious experiences, well, that's gonna be where our kids are gonna wanna do. Okay? No. So does that mean we don't do those things?
Paul Karos:Of course, we are going to do some of those things with our family. But it's our reaction. It's our thanking the Lord for that experience and not just like, oh, it's just the greatest. We've made it, man. This is the greatest thing in the world.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Paul Karos:I don't if that does that make sense?
Cindy Karos:I think it does. And I think whether you have money or you don't have money, it's always nice to have nice things. I mean, there's nothing wrong with nice things. But when the nice things become the most important thing, that's where our challenges start. And we think we have a mission of teaching our kids how to steward God's gifts well, and money is one of those gifts.
Cindy Karos:Right? And I think we had the benefit of getting married later, having children later in life, and we had experienced a lot of worldly things and recognized that it didn't bring happiness necessarily. And we also recognized that we loved giving. And so one of the ways to give, whether you have money or you don't have money, is to be careful with how you spend money. And so having those extra dollars, to give Right.
Cindy Karos:Versus spending them is something we wanna teach our kids.
Michelle Moujaes:That's And
Cindy Karos:there's you know, that's an important piece. We wanna when they leave our homes, we don't want them to be focused on what they're gonna buy, but what they're going to give. And we only all of us only have so many dollars just to do that with.
Michelle Moujaes:I love the idea of, you know, the saints of the church, hear that if you have two coats, you stole one from your brother, which is such a beautiful, like Yeah. Aesthetical journey to aspire to. But I feel like Yeah. Is. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:I'm of sure. Us are kind of far. I have a lot of coats in my closet. And so Hey.
Cindy Karos:We live in Minnesota. There are a lot
Michelle Moujaes:more seasons and so many more coats. The question becomes, if the ideal is that, how can we as parents move toward that? And I'm just gonna say it because I'm sure someone watching besides me is thinking it, but without becoming so extreme or kind of like the odd family who's, you know, not living in this culture. So okay. Help me find that balance.
Paul Karos:Well, so we that's that's I think a good benchmark of I'm gonna be in this we are to be in this world and not of this world. And the middle way. Remember the middle way because the fathers really talk about that middle way, and you're really getting to that either extreme is gonna hurt us. And so one thing that Cindy and I have done with families and couples is we have like a scatter plot. If you can manage like the X Y axis.
Paul Karos:Right?
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Paul Karos:And we show this to couples just to get them thinking. And the X axis is monthly spending as a family. So the left side might be $4,000 a month. And way out here, I've seen families at $50,000 a month. A month.
Paul Karos:Okay. And then the y axis is pressure to succeed and move ahead and make more money. Okay, that's the low to high. And so it's in mathematical terms we taught, we call it the regression. The regression goes lower left to upper right.
Paul Karos:So the more you choose to spend as a monthly spending as a family, the higher the pressure is to move ahead and make more money. Okay.
Michelle Moujaes:That's so good.
Paul Karos:Isn't that good?
Michelle Moujaes:That's
Paul Karos:so Every family has got to kind of decide where they want to be on that. And there's freedom. There's no perfect answer. Husband and wife, that's for you to sit down. But what we're saying is and this is really practical.
Paul Karos:There are really five things that really impact a family budget and will, a large part, decide where they're going to be on that 4,000 to 50,000 a month thing. Okay. And that is number one is the size of your home or the cost of owning your home or rental. Number one is your biggest item. Number two is going to be the kind of car you choose to purchase.
Paul Karos:You're to buy a brand new $80,000 car or you're to buy a used $15,000 car. Whichever you decide, this will impact that monthly nut that you have to cover, which puts pressure on how much you have to earn as a family. How often you eat out and what kind of restaurants you choose to eat out. Third, huge impact of family budgets. Fourth is travel.
Paul Karos:How often? How luxurious? These are big decisions that can make huge swings on a pressure on a family's finances. And fifth is clothing. You can go from never having a brand item to only buying brand items.
Paul Karos:And this has a major impact. So these five things and there's others, of course. But these are the big five that husband and wife should come together and decide where are we going to be on this? And all we can say is that Orthodox wisdom is the more simpler, the more freedom.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Paul Karos:Simpler. Yeah. The more freedom.
Michelle Moujaes:That's really important. Let me say that back because I want everyone to hear that. In orthodoxy, we hear the simpler you live, the more freedom you have. Basically, the simpler you live, the more freedom you have. That's gold right there.
Paul Karos:And Saint Paisios adds to it. He says the more simple you choose to live as a family, you'll experience less anxiety as a family and less restlessness as a family. So we don't have to be extreme. But if you want to compare it to what the world is telling us, I think we would say it's gonna you may look extreme. Just by tweaking it and going away from the what the world is encouraging you to do, it may it may seem extreme.
Paul Karos:It's not extreme. It's just coming back to the middle way. The world is extreme right now on these topics.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. How does fasting play into this and all of the wisdom that the church gives us through the aesthetical practices? Like, how does that help us make decisions in our family? And did your family fast as a family?
Cindy Karos:Okay. We did fast, and it was a journey. We didn't start day one with the perfect fast on every single time. But what by the day end, we got there, and it was a slow journey. We'd add a little here, add a little there.
Cindy Karos:But the reality is, I would tell you that fasting could be the secret sauce Oh. In parenting. I I mean Yeah. I I wouldn't have known that on the front end. Okay.
Cindy Karos:I I was just doing it because the church asked us to do it. Didn't really even understand it well enough. But when I look back now, fasting teaches our kids so many things. It teaches them to do with less. Right?
Cindy Karos:I mean, you could have a really beautiful abundant meal. Well, when you're fasting, you're the idea is to just have a little and just have enough to nourish you instead of, like, going crazy on
Michelle Moujaes:things. Right. Right.
Cindy Karos:Right. So it teaches you that. It also teaches you a little delayed gratification.
Paul Karos:That's a big one.
Cindy Karos:Because if you have a period of time, let's say it's a Lenten fast, and you are waiting until the forty days are over or a holy week or whatever it is, you've delayed that kind of gratification to have a really meaty steak or some really great meal that our fast is asking us not to. But I think one of the real unexpected sort of bonuses of fasting is teaching our kids how to say no to temptation. Right? Okay. So if you're tempted, like, you've decided you're not gonna have meat during Lent, during, like, the holy week or whatever it might be.
Cindy Karos:Mhmm. If you can actually say no to a hamburger when your when your buddies are all having a hamburger, that's a really great skill. And hopefully, they'll be able to use that, like, that resilience to be able to say no to to cheating or to lying or, heaven forbid, an adulterous affair someday. Yep. You know?
Cindy Karos:And so I think it's a it's an amazing thing. Who would have ever guessed that giving up certain foods on certain days was gonna make that big of a difference to all those different life lessons?
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. I love that. Oh, so good. All right. So let me ask you this.
Michelle Moujaes:I know one of the things we've talked about a lot in our conversations has been this focus on gratitude and real thankfulness. I mean, the word that we use, the Eucharist means thankfulness. So tell me about that. How did you actually implement lessons around thankfulness with your own children?
Paul Karos:Interestingly, on thankfulness, one of the things that I'll never forget this discussion in Monothos about joy. Okay? And this monk told us that there are a few things about joy that cultivate joy. Somebody asked the question, how do you get joy in your heart? And he said that the fathers talk about four things.
Paul Karos:One is to clear your conscience.
Michelle Moujaes:K.
Paul Karos:You got something on your heart, clear your conscience. Two is whatever happens to your life, look for the good. All things lead to good. Even our suffering, our difficulties, something good can come.
Michelle Moujaes:So good.
Paul Karos:Three was to do your life with humility and sacrifice to others. It brings joy. And he said, and the big one is gratefulness and gratitude, thankfulness. That that set cultivates joy in our heart. So this is a big this is a very important thing to cultivate joy in our heart comes from being thankful.
Paul Karos:So how do we do it? We did it in lots of different ways. One way was in nature, where we would, go out there and literally say, oh, just listen to God's nature, guys. I mean, you know, and and that's something I love to do, and Cindy loves to do too. But just being in awe of nature creates gratitude.
Paul Karos:And pretty soon you start to realize, well, I'm part of creation too. So I should thank God for creating me too. Every year at major holidays, we do this thing where we go around the table, and we'll just know, who's ever there, aunts, uncles, whoever, and we just go around. Everybody shares what they're grateful for in their life this last year, and what they're looking forward to in the upcoming year. Just kind of, let them express their gratitude.
Paul Karos:After communion, I kinda you know, we've mentioned this before, Cindy and I love this. But after communion to whisper in their ears, you're white as snow. Fresh start. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord.
Paul Karos:To to teach our children through our own experience to thank God for these things. And even to thank God when they've been through a tough experience, a friend rejection or something after they start to come out the other end of it, not right when they're in it, but as they're coming out the other end of their bounce back to actually see, you know, it kind of feels like we can thank God that look at how much we're learning from even this tough situation.
Cindy Karos:Well, and I always important when our kids are down for whatever reason. It may not be about the circumstance, but it's it's a good time to think about what can we be thankful for a difficult situation or in a different time in our life. Know we could focus on those really horrible things, but do we have some things that we can be thankful for? And ask them to really look outside of what is going on to find some things to be thankful for. I'm grateful Paul, as you may or may not know, is blind.
Cindy Karos:And for someone to not be able to see things, he's been really grateful for things that we would take for granted to see. And so having him just be joyful about what it looks like outside on a sunny day or whatever the case is, it really teaches. And we feel that joy about something that we may take for granted.
Michelle Moujaes:So I know that we're closing in on our time, but I wanna ask this question before we move to our listeners' questions. So I know one of the things that as we go into the holidays or into Christmas season in America, it is so focused on things and again, accumulation and all of this stuff. And I think one of the things that I love that you guys have done so well is you really have invited your kids into a different way of thinking about the things. You never really had the value on the stuff. So if they had it, great.
Michelle Moujaes:If they didn't have it, great. And I can see in your kids, they don't seem quite as interested in, let's just say, the brand names, the labels, the extravagant experiences, and yet are totally, content and fulfilled and enjoy their lives so fully. So for those of us who are not there yet and haven't really started that journey as intentionally, what could we do going into the Christmas season to kinda like upset what we've done for the last ten, twenty, fifteen years of like, you know, everybody expects a big thing or whatever How that looks like for can we kind of backtrack on that if we haven't had the history of really cultivating that intentionally?
Paul Karos:Well, I'd start small, but I would say, look, you know, how do I how do we as parents feel about this message that the world gives us that the brand names that, you know, and being therefore liked by others or respected by others, brand names will make us more happy or more content or more joyful. As as Orthodox parents, we really are called to look at the world, see it for what it is, not condemn the world. That's not our job. We don't condemn the world. God will take care of whatever he's meant to do even with us.
Paul Karos:But we can say that is not true. This is not in the middle way. And so the need for brand names and thinking that that's going to make us somehow more excited and more happy, we have to be willing to say that's wrong. And I think that's something as parents that we decided early on is that we don't believe in that, even though we've lived, we both of us lived in that world for a number of years. But we realize it's an empty path.
Michelle Moujaes:Sure. I don't get
Cindy Karos:the impression that we don't have things that are named brand. I mean, clearly do. But, you know, I thank my parents for this lesson a long time ago. We had moved to a new school district, and, everybody there had Adidas tennis shoes. Adidas?
Cindy Karos:Adidas and Levi's jeans. Okay. I had neither. Right? So I told my parents, I need to get a pair of Adidas tennis shoes.
Cindy Karos:And they were like, we're not gonna pay for those. You're welcome to save your money. So this is gonna age me. But I saved my babysitting money 50¢ an hour
Michelle Moujaes:Oh my goodness. Until I
Cindy Karos:got my $26, and that's what it cost to get a
Paul Karos:fair Fifty two hours of babysitting money.
Cindy Karos:Adidas shoes. Okay? Wow. So I was so excited. Couldn't wait to wear them to school.
Cindy Karos:I did. And guess what? After a short period of time, it didn't make me cooler. It didn't make me happier. It didn't make me anything.
Cindy Karos:And I actually started to think kind of a waste of money. Not that I didn't continue to buy things that were name brand, but I had that lesson early on. And, again, maybe being older parents, we realized that if we said no to something, it was not gonna change their life. I think today in the world, as parents, you feel somehow judged that if you don't get those things for your kid, you're a bad parent.
Michelle Moujaes:You kinda suck.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. Absolutely I get are not. So I think you need to start by just, you know, making some choices.
Paul Karos:And And maybe you do one brand name and and, you know, again, in balance in the middle way, you know, doesn't have to be all or nothing. But if it's all, if it's all, that's that's gonna
Michelle Moujaes:damage everything. And that the joy would come from that. That's right. So two quick questions before we, turn to our viewers questions. So the first one is what encouragement would you give to parents who feel like their kids already have too much stuff or are too focused on stuff?
Paul Karos:You know, first thing I'd say is don't panic.
Michelle Moujaes:Don't panic. Yeah. Don't
Paul Karos:panic. Yeah. Take a big deep breath. Yeah. You know, talk talk to each other as a couple.
Paul Karos:Talk to Christ. But but the point is to begin to change. Change yourself a little bit. Say, you know, maybe we bought into this a little too much. Maybe it mattered more to us than our kids.
Paul Karos:And how do we wean our kids in a different direction? Gently, patiently take a couple of years and do it. Don't don't worry about it.
Michelle Moujaes:I love
Paul Karos:that ying and yang. Yeah. And and start to really realize that the true inner peace, joy, strength really does have nothing to do with material needs that are material items that are over our needs. They're just short term wants that get pleasure and they they're fleeting. You know?
Cindy Karos:I I would I would actually say when we realized that that we've done too much or we have too many things in the toy closet, first thing we wanna do is give them a lecture. Like, do you realize how many toys you have?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. For sure.
Cindy Karos:And there are kids who don't have any toys? I mean, really, what we're doing is blaming the kid for what we bought. So I think Oh. Knowing that to start with is kind of an important piece. But I I would also say we did many times would maybe before the holidays or whatever, we would go through the toy closet or the collection and gather things to give away to kids who didn't have things.
Cindy Karos:Do that. Or or really just try and identify, you know, giving things away is a a really helpful thing.
Paul Karos:I forgot that. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:No. I like that.
Paul Karos:That was
Cindy Karos:a helpful tool. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:The idea of just taking one step at a time, don't panic, but get a little closer to where you'd wanna be. Recalibrate. I love that.
Paul Karos:That's it.
Michelle Moujaes:That's I love it. Okay. Well, let's look at any questions we have from our listeners. Here is a question from Basma, and she is in Oklahoma City. She asks, my daughter is obsessed with expensive things from skincare to fragrance to clothing to shoes to the right kind of backpack.
Michelle Moujaes:How can I lead her toward heavenly things instead of all these trends?
Paul Karos:Wow. What a beautiful mom. Mean, I
Michelle Moujaes:can bet every mom of girl right
Cindy Karos:mom Yeah. In the world. We certainly had Yeah. All three of our kids were focused on that too.
Paul Karos:I I think asking some questions over time to the child and just say, hey, you know, Julie, whatever her child's name is, you know, just out of curiosity, I can tell this is really important to you. What what about it is important to you? And and really understand the kid. Maybe it's all about peer pressure and shame or that they feel like they're being left out, or maybe you're going to learn a lot by and no judgment to your child. Just learn.
Paul Karos:Spend a few days just learning without even advice. Just get to know what is going on so that you can then at least know what to do to start with that. Would say,
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. I mean, the skincare and it's so expensive.
Paul Karos:Yeah.
Cindy Karos:I don't even use good skincare on my skin. I mean, seriously. But I I do think that if your child has already gone down that path, maybe having them spend their own money to help that realize, Cindy? I mean, seriously, that stuff is so expensive. If you had to spend your own money, that's not gonna continue.
Cindy Karos:And then I I really wanna make this point. Many of our friends are in different spots. So let's say some of her friends are spending that kind of money, and we can't ever judge them. We can never say, oh, they're wasting their money. We don't waste money.
Cindy Karos:I mean, you've gotta be really nonjudgmental because as Orthodox people, we don't judge what other people do. We focus on what we can do. Right? Maybe helping them recognize that by not spending the money, they can do something for somebody else. And I would say for those who haven't gotten to Basma's situation, they've got younger kids, try not to get there.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
Cindy Karos:Say no. We asked our kids recently, what was it that caused you to be more conscientious? And they said, well, you said no. And it didn't really matter, they said. Mean, we were up just fine.
Cindy Karos:We had friends just fine. So don't be afraid to
Michelle Moujaes:say That's great.
Paul Karos:No. Yeah. No is a very important thing. And, you know, ultimately, that little girl, there's a little spiritual disconnect that somehow she needs to know that she's loved by Christ. She's a precious child of God, and no external thing will change that.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I love it.
Paul Karos:And that real goal is to become a godly woman, and that isn't really related to your looks. You are beautiful inside and out just the way you are. And the world's gonna tell you that you gotta get more beautiful on the outside. And as a family, we don't believe that. We believe your beauty is inside.
Paul Karos:Beauty is inside, not outside.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. I actually just wanna add one piece to that. When we were doing work on one of Faith Tree's products called the Digital Tsunami, which is helping parents navigate with orthodox strategies this modern digital age, one of the things we found in our research was that when we allow, especially our girls to go specifically on Instagram, if they delete a certain picture or if they, take a selfie and then wipe it out immediately, they get ads from guess where? Sephora. So it's an algorithm meant to pick up on those cues and really feed into our children's insecurity and make sure that they want more fragrance and skincare and makeup and what have you.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. This last one comes from one of our team members and then we will thank you for your time. Thank you for your generosity and wisdom. This question is how can parents balance giving our children good things, whether gifts, experiences or opportunities without feeding into materialism? And I know you've answered it, but is there any last thought that you'd want to throw in there?
Paul Karos:You know, the only thing I would say is when we do give something that's nice, focus on its functionality and how it might it might help the life a little bit. And then at some point to to to thank God to even if it's an hour or two later to see, you know, was just thinking about it, John, that that gift is so is so beautiful that God was able to buy that. We should just thank him. You know? That's great.
Paul Karos:Just just thank you, Lord. Thank you for giving us the ability to do that. May we use it for good, Lord. See, so that the thankfulness come yeah. Thankfulness comes and that's good for meals too.
Paul Karos:Right. Instead of like, oh, what a meal. It's just so good. Oh, what a meal. Thank you, Lord.
Paul Karos:Oh my gosh. It's just so good.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Yeah. Paul and Cindy, thank you always for joining us and for sharing not just your wisdom, but your lived experience. Every time I talk with you, I feel like I'm drinking from, what is it? A fire hose?
Michelle Moujaes:Not a water hose. Fire hose.
Paul Karos:Yeah. Yeah. Us with you too, Michelle.
Michelle Moujaes:I walk away encouraged and inspired, and I know our audience does as well. So thank you, and God willing, we'll have you back here again.
Paul Karos:And thanks for fighting the good fight, Michelle, for for everybody. It's it's beautiful.
Michelle Moujaes:Thanks, guys. Thank you. And for those of you who are just tuning in, I hope this conversation gave you both some hope and some practical ways to help your family cultivate gratitude and really resist that pull of materialism that we all experience. And remember, our children learn most from what they see in us. When we practice Thanksgiving, that's what they're gonna learn.
Michelle Moujaes:When we choose contentment, that's what they're gonna learn. And when we put people in relationships above things, we're showing them the life in Christ that we want them to embrace. If you want more practical ways to do that, don't forget. You can download your free digital discussion guide to go deeper on today's topic, and it's just a perfect opportunity for reflecting on your own or with your spouse or talking through with friends or your church community. And the last thing, if this episode encouraged you, please consider sharing it with other parents or another family in your parish because when you do that, you're helping more families discover the podcast and to be strengthened by the wisdom of people like Paul and Cindy.
Michelle Moujaes:Again, we thank you for joining us on Orthodox Christian Parenting. Every week, we're here to walk with you as you raise your children to know Christ, to love Him, and to God willing, spend their whole lives trying to become more like him. We'll see you next time.