A Podcast for Coaches shines a light on one of the most elegant, underrated business models in the world: one-on-one coaching. Mark Butler hosts the show, and he's been a coach and advisor to every kind of online business you can think of, having helped businesses earning everything from $0 to $25,000,000+. Although Mark believes every online business model has merit, he worries one-on-one coaching is viewed as a stepping-stone business for people who aren't ready or able to scale. But it's not true, and A Podcast for Coaches sets out to show people--through clear teaching and rich, current stories of successful coaches who love their business--that one-on-one coaching is one of the most gratifying and lowest "hassle-per-dollar" businesses in the world.
Hey, it's Mark.
This is a podcast for coaches
and I'm doing a thing now where
in order to, Make the experience
of the podcast a little richer.
I'm just gonna have my friends come
on occasionally and we just chat.
Oh, fun.
That's what this is.
This is gonna be tough
for you and I to chat.
Oof.
Yeah, we, we, we barely ever do.
So everybody, this is Jesse
Mecom, my very good friend.
Friend since 2008.
Eight, yeah.
That's getting up there.
Yeah.
A lot of the audience
already knows you, I think.
Oh.
Some of them listen to beginning balance.
Jesse and I have a podcast
together called beginning balance.
We started it in 2021 Okay, at which
time I just hefted it onto my shoulders
and I've been carrying it ever since
you're you've carried that podcast
Yeah, yeah, I've told this audience
that that podcast is the most consistent
thing I've ever done That's pretty
awesome because I'm not in charge of it.
Yeah And acknowledging that is a win.
It is such a win.
I'm trying to figure out how to work
that into other areas of my life.
Jesse is the founder of a
company called YNAB, which
used to mean you need a budget.
Now it means you're not a budget.
Don't relegate yourself to such things.
You are not a budget.
You are so much more spend, save and give
joyfully without guilt or second guessing.
That's I've been saying that a lot.
Oh, that's so good.
Yeah.
I got oohs and ahs at a thing.
It was fun.
Yeah.
Oh, you know what I should say on
this recording to this audience,
if anyone appreciates the work I do
today, they need to thank you because
in 2013, when I was limping away from
my first attempt at self employment.
That was, that was pretty good though.
Like it wasn't limping.
No.
I mean, what I can tell you is
that I had a lot of personal debt
and I owed the IRS a lot of money.
I'll, we'll stand by the limb.
It at least felt like a twisted ankle.
I was like, yeah, okay.
I'll give it to you.
I may not be very good at this.
After all, you gave me a job as the
YNAB staff writer, about a year after
starting as the staff writer, I came to
you and said, I need to make more money.
I want to make more money.
Which I only knew
because of your software.
Yes.
You were on a mission during that year.
I was on a mission.
That was like a Mark 2.
0 to 3.
0 to 4.
0.
, we made some changes.
Kate was very patient in the process.
There were comments on the YNAB
blog, which is where I would
write every day where people would
say, I feel bad for Mark's wife.
You were just, you were just in it.
I was, it was such good writing,
, material to have you just like
blogging your personal transformation.
Yeah.
I was basically live blogging my,
it was reality TV . It's reality tv.
So anyway, anybody who appreciates
what I'm doing now should thank Jesse
because you gave me the softest possible
landing from my self-employment.
You'd built, I mean, you had started
building a coaching business inside YNAB.
You start, you were like,
yeah, that's the thing.
I said, I want to make some more money.
And I said, I think we could
do this coaching thing.
You were very supportive
of it, which is amazing.
I think within six months, the coaching
practice inside YNAB was paying for itself
because it was paying more than I cost.
And, , but then you realize that
you're not a coaching company.
Yeah.
It's just, it was a, we were just,
you could sniff the, , The focus fade.
You know, you just, it just wasn't right.
Yeah.
Wasn't right.
You were right.
And you were right to say that.
But then again, you gave me another
very soft landing out of your
company back into self employment
and anybody who's felt served by
me in the last 10 years, 10 years.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
So that's the most
consistent thing you've done.
I mean, you, yeah.
And it's, well, what's good for you
is you get to kind of It's, it feels
almost new every day in the sense of
like you get to do your favorite thing,
which is figuring out why people think
the way they do what they're doing.
You get to do it in a space that I
think you enjoy, which is kind of
the money business intersection.
It just, I think it checks a lot
of boxes and migrating toward now.
Oh, let's not forget.
You get to set your own
schedule and be an entrepreneur.
I forgot those two things that
are really important from Tik TOK.
Yeah.
I hate, I hate, I hate when
people talk about entrepreneurs,
like it's some romantic thing.
Oh, I refuse.
When people are, when people tell
me, Oh, you're entrepreneurial.
I always say, no, I'm not.
Don't say that.
Yeah.
I own a business.
Which is funny.
A person listening to
this would be like, why?
What's your beef with that?
I don't know.
It's, it's, it's yeah.
First of me, it's too much of a meme.
Yeah.
It's way too much of a meme.
And also I actually, for me, the word
entrepreneur means something specific.
An entrepreneur takes capital and puts it
at risk in hope of creating greater value.
I don't do that for the
most, I don't really do that.
What I do is I operate as a self
employed person, a technician, and I
get paid well for being a technician.
I'm in that sense, highly risk averse.
I'm not going to borrow a million dollars
and go do something or, or that, or am I?
I would call that.
Entrepreneurship.
Yeah.
I'm a self employed technician.
Even as a coach.
I'm a self employed technician.
Yeah.
Cause it's just another
kind of technical work.
So anyway, you've been very supportive
and , it's, yeah, it's been, it's
been fantastic, but I brought
you on the show today because,
You run a company with how many
employees were one, one 70, maybe one 70.
I want you to free associate about the
idea of coaching and how you, you would
or wouldn't use it in your company.
I'm not saying about coaching, like,
Oh, a manager coaches, a team member.
Right.
Right.
That's great.
Okay.
We could talk about that.
I'm actually curious to get your
perspective because so many people in my
audience, I think would love, for example,
to say, why NAB hired me to coach?
Oh, I got you a team member or to
coach a division, a team or something.
And I just want you to kind of free
associate about why, why not, in what
circumstances, how you think about
it as as the owner of the company,
if at all higher level coaching.
The higher the level, the more the
coaching is just like, yeah, it's
irresponsible for you not to be coached
by someone external to the organization.
Really?
Okay.
Say more about this.
, Todd, , has a coach
Todd is the CEO of YNM.
Yep.
Todd has a coach now.
He has a coach meets with her.
I don't know how often,
but, , she's external.
I've never spoken with her.
She has Todd's back.
She couldn't give a rip about me.
I don't think, and that's, I'm
saying that in a very positive way.
Yeah.
She has Todd's back like that.
Her job is to make Todd the best he
can be, how did Todd End up in a
coaching relationship with his coach.
He was referred by, I think the then CEO
of help scout, , service we use similar
software company size, that kind of thing.
They had a relationship just like,
Hey, we're both, you know, leaders in
similar size oriented software companies.
And I think it was when I was pitching
him the idea of being CEO he might've
gone to Nick and who was a CEO.
And I've been like, so
I'm, I want to get some.
Instruction.
I want to get some coaching.
And then Nick said, Oh,
I recommend these guys.
And I honestly couldn't
tell you the name.
It's just, I think like kind of a
small little coaching operation.
Oh, it's like it's a firm,
a firm, a few people.
I don't know.
I really don't know the size.
It doesn't matter.
Cause he just works with one woman there.
So, okay.
A referral from a friend.
Do you have any sense of the structure?
Some regular phone call Okay, yeah But you
don't know whether it's weekly monthly.
I don't yeah, that's okay It doesn't that
doesn't really matter so much But you
from what you know of it todd that's the
setting in which todd can say anything.
Yeah get support around Do
you think do you do you know
whether it's ceo I think it is.
Yeah.
Yeah Ynab pays the bill.
Yeah How do you feel about that?
Great.
Did you ever feel any resistance to it?
No.
He said if you weren't willing
to pay for coaching for the
CEO, I wouldn't take the job.
So this was in the transition to CEO.
Yeah.
I was like, well, if I
do this, I want coaching.
It's like, absolutely.
Oh, good.
And he's just like, if you don't do this,
like Tim, Tim, that was a signal of I
don't want to put words in his mouth,
but he said something to that effect.
And it was just like, that
would be a signal to that.
You don't think this is that
valuable position, you know?
And I was just like, no, yeah, do it.
We, you know, YNAB has a training
and development budget for
every team member for Todd.
It's obviously larger than it is for
someone that just started, , cause
we're trying to develop people.
What are some ways that
people use the training and
development budget conferences?
A lot of the time, especially if they
can all go to the same conference or
a lot of them go, and then you kind
of have a little bit of a twofer.
It's like we get to have a team meetup.
We're all remote, right?
So team meetup bonding.
And you get to go, you
know, learn up your game.
Some of them have ended up
speaking at those conferences.
Like that's, that's a sign
of development, right?
Yep.
Yeah, our support team, they've gone to a
conference, I think pretty regularly where
they've, that's kind of leveled them up.
Some lots of books and things like that.
I don't think there are
formal coaching relationships
except at the exec team level.
If there are I'm unaware of them.
How long ago did you establish a
training and development budget?
I don't I don't know that
we've ever talked about it.
Gosh, maybe 2015 It's eight
years ago nine years ago.
Do you have any memory of what?
Was the catalyst?
Yeah, probably someone being like hey
if I buy a book for My job like does
wine i'm cover it and we would just
be like, oh that seems reasonable But
then it's obviously like well we can't
Just, you know, cover everything.
So yeah, I think that's
where we carved it out.
Chance would be able to give
you all the details on that
because that's an ops thing.
So he, he's over that.
Does chance, do you and chance
is the, what is chances title?
Head of operations, head of operations,
which is essentially people.
Do you and chance have conversations
about The size or an intended use of
the training and development budget.
Todd and Chance do.
Todd, of course, Todd's CEO.
And do you, as the person who ultimately
is signing checks, well, first of
all, do you think of it that way?
No.
Todd thinks, you think of Todd doing that?
Yeah, he signs the checks.
Good job.
Good job being a leader.
Yeah.
Because I still totally think of it being
like, well, Jesse's, it's Jesse's money.
I, it is my money.
I and Taylor's.
I've on my Colby index, I found
out that I am very happy to have
other people do things for me.
Yeah, I can attest to that.
So Todd and Chance talk about how big
the training development budget is
and should be and what it should do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You have some guidelines.
Hey, we, we mean it for it to
be used for things like this.
Someone wants to like, I don't know,
some QA specialists is like, I want
to up my game on writing this kind of
code or this, this, you know, whatever.
And it's just like, Oh yeah, go
take that course, do that thing.
So you, you have to let them decide.
, I always like to push decisions down
as local as you can get them, you know?
So, but then there have been times
where we've decreed things like in
2013 or 14, we decreed that we would
use , Gino Wickman's traction, which is
in effect coaching via a book, right?
And We just decreed it.
But you never worked with a
traction implementer, for example.
I tried once.
He gave me his pitch and I was
like, that is not a cultural fit.
Like this would not fly.
Oh, I think I was in the room.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He just, the vibe wasn't right.
It wasn't.
Yeah.
Like obviously your coach has
to, you got to have a vibe.
It's like a therapist.
Just as important.
You got to find the right one.
Yep.
So we, we rolled it and I do think if
I would have found the right person,
it would have been so much better
to have an external implementer.
So it's not Jesse with some
new harebrained idea because he
happened to read a book, you know
Which is a thing that happens.
Yeah, it's I I didn't read a read books
for a year just to prove a point to
the execs And I stuck to it to be clear
because the exact execs kept coming
to you and saying oh great Just chill
out with the books You guys got to
hear this this is so amazing okay, so
You're happy to see this money being
spent on training and development.
Yeah.
Do you have any feedback from
Todd about how it's helped?
I actually don't.
I guess I could, I could ask Todd.
I have access to Todd.
Yeah, I should ask him.
Just be like, so how's, how's the,
like, what have you gotten from it?
I mean, Todd is a Zen teacher.
, literally, he is a Zen teacher.
So he's very used to
having someone, guide him.
We'll say that.
And I think he sees it as valuable when he
was a principal of a school, when he was
assistant superintendent,, he regularly
talks about this mentor of his and I
cannot remember his name, but he quotes
him at least once in every quarterly
meeting we have where he's just like,
you know, so and so said, and it's this,
it's this mentor of his very meaningful.
Now that wasn't a formal coaching
relationship, but you can see that Todd
really appreciates guidance from a mentor.
from a wise person that has his back.
So maybe he's just wired to
kind of, kind of want it.
I've, I tried harder with our head
of marketing to have her get some
coaching and it took a couple of years.
For it to finally, finally
find someone where she's like,
Oh yeah, this is clicking.
I like this.
Was she quote unquote
dating in the meantime?
Yeah, in a sense, but off and on.
Cause it's like, Hey,
are you going to do this?
Oh yeah, I need to.
So what I'm asking is, did she
meet with coaches and then be
like, ah, that's not a fit.
That's not, yeah, I think
she tried a Vistage meeting
once, which is peer coaching.
Oh, that's hilarious.
I, I would not imagine Lindsay liking it.
Yeah, it didn't go well, you know,
Fresno of all places, her energy.
She's probably laughing all the time.
She's like, that was not funny.
I love that.
She's a great time.
So she, yeah.
So I think she finally found
someone that just, I think it's an
informal and they've just, they
agreed like, yeah, I'll help you out
and we'll, we'll do this regularly.
And she's liking it.
Taylor joined a Vistage for a while
and got some mileage out of that.
Taylor's part owner in YNAB and
our tech, technical fellow.
Now he used to be head of technology.
He's a technical fellow.
And that is his real title.
Yeah.
He gets to dig deep on things that
are kind of cutting edge and figure
out how YNAB will be affected slash.
So he was in Vistage.
He was in Vistage for a few years and
then bowed out just what didn't feel
like he was getting value out of it.
And now he has joined an EO group.
And he's really liking
that it's pure, it's small.
It's very strict.
Like if you're late, you owe the money.
Like there's, there's some things just
like, you need to respect our time.
If your phone goes off, like mine did
when we were recording, that's a problem.
If you miss a meeting, one meeting next
one, you're out and that kind of thing.
Like it's serious, but they're
serious because they're, They
want the investment to pay.
So he's been using EO for members
of the audience who don't know
what EO or EO are pretty similar
organizations or similar intent.
Yeah.
I call them CEO clubs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taylor's not a CEO, but
it's, it's a place where.
Key, key people in organizations can go.
And in our world, we would
call it masterminding.
Yeah.
Collaborating.
Yeah.
It's probably more formal than what
people call masterminds or how I've
heard them because people are like,
Oh, I'm in a couple of masterminds.
And I'd be like,, how can
you have the time to do that?
You know?
Yeah.
But it's cause it might mean like
a once a month call or something.
What does Vistage cost?
A couple thousand a month?
Yeah, it kept going up.
It might be 2, 500 a month or something.
Is EO comparable?
I don't know on EO.
Yeah.
Vistage also gives you, you're
the chair of the Vistage group
in your area also meets with you
for a couple hours once a month.
So you do get coaching from the chair.
You still do that?
No, I don't anymore.
I I think I was done with
Vistage a year and a half ago.
Oh, you don't do Vistage?
I don't.
I didn't know you stopped.
Yeah.
I, so this, the Vistage format
is you meet all day, once a month.
First half of the day is a speaker.
And then the second half of the
day you're at processing issues,
talking through things always depends
on your group, you know, why did
you, you were in that for years?
Yes.
And I think I was in that
for nine, nine years.
Why did you stop?
I felt like I had gotten
what I needed out of it.
And it really.
change when I was no longer CEO.
Cause then I just was like a lot
of that, that you're learning from
the speakers or whatever is like
how to do this, how to do that.
And it's just like, I'm not, I'm not
boots on the ground anymore doing that.
You know?
My chair, Dwayne, he
still invites me to stuff.
I, Hey, maybe you'd like the
speaker, you know, maybe just
pop in, listen to the speaker.
And it does give you a little bit
of whipsaw sometimes, sometimes.
This speaker says you should, you know,
do this, this speaker says you should
do this and all of them are great,
super polished presentations and you're
like, Oh my gosh, content overload.
Yeah, it is a little bit of content
overload in companies that do Vistage the
staff on that in those companies regularly
caught day after Vistage, meaning like
what's, what's coming down a little bit
like day after Jesse finished a book.
Yeah.
So you got to be careful with that.
You know man, a great speaker that spoke
that I remembered was his name's Cujo.
That's his call sign, not his name.
He was a fighter pilot,, high
functioning fighter pilot.
And he spoke for three hours about
the power of briefing and debriefing.
It was so good.
It was so good.
So you'll get these, I mean, some of
those speaking engagements that I went to
Edgar Parker spoke about true alignment.
His book is not good to read.
It's so dry, but his speaking, how,
your core values express your brand
and that expresses to your customers,
that changed YNAB trajectory.
Like that helped us, helped us
realize we were much more like an
Oprah Winfrey vibe than we were
a personal finance management.
You know, like we started
learning, , Oh, we're, we're
helping people self actualize.
We aren't helping them manage money.
It was a breakthrough for us.
So I'm very grateful.
I did all those a lot of
people in my audience would
want to be those vista speakers.
Yes.
Yes.
What's that like?
You need to get endorsed.
You need to get approved.
You need to buy Vistage the company.
Yeah.
But do you go through Vistage the company?
Yeah.
You would need to contact chairs.
And I think chairs actually.
They protect chairs quite
a bit from solicitation.
Yeah.
Essentially.
I remember, Oh, I don't know how many
years, five, six, seven years ago,
Dwayne reached out to me, the chair
of your Vistage Group, fantastic guy.
And he said,, let's work together.
I'll help you prepare your presentation.
I want you to be on the circuit.
I think you have a lot of value to add.
It wasn't a fit for my business model.
Yeah.
That kind of marketing wasn't
really going to serve me now.
Interestingly, as I'm moving more and more
into coaching, I'm starting to As it's
become a bigger part of my life It would
probably make more sense for me to look
back at the potential there but People
didn't solicit in their presentations.
No, you are not.
You're not allowed to.
Yeah.
You need to add value from your
presentation requiring no sale, you know,
but there are a lot of speakers that
were, that is their, their sole lead gen.
I would have to be.
Yeah.
And they've done a thousand of them, you
know, it takes a special kind of person
that enjoys the road warrior thing.
So these chairs will come together
and be like, Hey, listen, I've got
six vista groups in salt Lake city.
And we can do it.
Boom, boom, boom.
And then the speaker's like,
okay, you have my attention.
Cause they don't have to do
the back and forth as much.
So there's this interesting
little economy market forms.
Vistage pays you, I mean, a pittance for
the speaking, I think maybe 500 bucks.
So it probably doesn't
even cover your travel.
Well, they'll cover your travel.
Oh, they will.
Yeah.
But it is not, it is not a moneymaker.
No, you know so Vistage
knows that it's lead gen.
Yes.
They just don't want you
pitching in your presentation.
They would, they want to protect
the integrity of the experience.
Yeah.
It's interesting for me to make
that clear to my audience, because I
think my audience is often under the
impression that they have to have a
directly transactional intent with
almost anything that they do, but in
Vistage and in many other scenarios,
you actually don't have to go in.
With a very transactional intent,
you can just trust the whole thing
to produce transactions naturally.
A lot of the speakers will obviously have
some kind of a lead gen Follow up thing
so they'll say hey I can send you x Just
you know, so they're allowed to do that.
Absolutely.
Give me your email address.
I'll follow up with this and this.
I didn't experience one even
medium pressure kind of a sales.
Well, it doesn't have to,
because if you think about the
environment that creates that.
In this, in our community,
we talk about high trust.
That's an extremely high trust
environment where the speaker is vetted.
The speaker has skin in the
game because if they don't do a
good job there, they get rated.
They're going to get rated.
They potentially lose the lead
stream, the lead flow from Vistage.
You have, High value targets sitting
in that room I mean 14 CEOs sitting
there for three hours and you can't
be in Vistage unless your top line
revenue is above a certain point
Yeah, pretty pretty good size.
So you've got a three hour opportunity to
build trust with people who can absolutely
pay your fee Yeah, so the incentives are
all set up to make those pretty great.
, that's a good example of the kind of
marketing that I would encourage a
coach to think about where I would say
You You could wisely spend two years
preparing yourself to be a Vistage
speaker and have nothing happen in
those two years, but that's worth it.
Yeah, I don't think it'd take two years.
Yeah.
But yeah, you need to become, somehow
become friends with a Vistage speaker.
And you're going to do it
pro bono three or four times.
You're going to get rated
and then you can be approved.
And then you need to actually
be selected by the chairs.
They have to reach out to you and say,
Hey, are you available these dates?
You can't go to chairs and
say, Hey, I'm available.
Oh, you can't.
No.
So it's truly wait to be reached out to.
It's just wait to be reached out.
Oh, that's interesting.
And so when I would get them, I
mean, I just didn't, for me, I was
talking to him about remote work
and why that would be, a good thing.
And I was talking to a lot of pretty
old school CEOs and it was, it was
a fun presentation because I got to
make them very uncomfortable, but it
didn't directly translate into , Hey,
YNAB offers financial wellness.
You know, I would have to give a
presentation to CEOs that's about how
their kids could do better with money.
That maybe would start to do it.
But to go there and give a presentation
about how financial wellness affects
the bottom line of their company,
it just, It just wasn't, yeah, it
certainly wasn't worth your time.
No.
And if I could give that presentation,
I would, but I don't think
it's attractive to the chairs.
It's too narrow, you know?
There's a lot on sales, how to sell.
There's a lot on legacy planning.
I think you can go in and kind of see
what the, what the topics are in, in
vestige maybe, but it would be worth.
Taking a vicious chair out
to lunch and asking them.
Does EO do anything similar?
Do they do guest speakers?
I don't think so.
I went and spoke at an EO group once,
but it was like friend of a friend.
He's just like, Hey, you
should come talk to us.
And I did for an hour.
It was totally informal.
I think EO does more like you have those,
those meetings and then they do trips.
I think they're more like travel oriented.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Where you'll go on these big trips.
So you said at the highest level, so maybe
the executive team, but would there be
any other scenario in which someone I
don't know what the best way to, you
know, rank and file another YNAB team
member would come and say, I'd like to
get some coaching around X, Y, or Z.
What do you think YNAB
would say about that?
I think it's been the T and D
budget and it makes, it kind of,
you know, passes the sniff test.
I think a manager.
Probably be okay with it.
Yeah.
I'm not sure what individual T and
D budgets are, you know it would,
yeah, we've, I don't know if we've
ever been approached like that.
I've wondered about a
company like YNAB having.
A staff, it's essentially a staff
therapist, just sort of like, Oh
yeah, I'm going to go meet with, I'm
going to go meet with Mark, right?
What do you, what comes to
your mind when I say that?
If it was the same therapist that to me
would start to be kind of problematic.
Oh yeah.
Okay, good.
Why?
Yeah.
I think they would start to kind
of cross pollinate a little bit.
Like, if you're talking about family
stuff,, Maybe it's okay, but if
you're, you're like, Hey, I'm coming
to this therapist for work things
or we should say coach, by the way.
I mean, yes, coach.
Then the coach, it's like, I'm having
a problem with my manager and then
that manager is saying, I'm having
a problem with this team member and,
and the, the coach kind of knows both.
And so I think it would be
hard to be above the fray.
Yeah, you're totally right.
No, I can tell you this.
No therapist would ever do it.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, they would probably,
'cause they'd be like, I can't,
ethically they can't do that.
Like, I can't give, I, yeah, I, I
think ethically, I, I remember, I,
I have a great therapist and I was
like, oh, you need to see so-and-So,
and it was all about like, well,
what kind of a relationship do you
have with so-and-So like, what?
Because they just don't want it close.
Like they don't want any, where
like they know something about
you that you didn't tell them.
I have not had that insight They
don't want to know something about
you that you didn't tell them.
That's so good I don't know how that's
never that's never occurred to me.
I don't know It was I was
surprised how many walls Flory
my therapist was throwing up.
I was like, what is the deal?
I'm trying to refer somebody.
Yeah It's like she was playing
hard to get in a big way.
I said to Ann once, and my therapist
that I've worked with, I said, I
would love it if you'd meet with Kate.
She just shook her head.
Yeah.
She didn't even, she just, she's
like, cause she knew that I knew.
Yeah.
She said, she's got to go
find her own therapist.
Yeah.
Interesting.
So my my thesis for this, by the
way, folks, is that sometimes coaches
fall into the trap of believing that
there isn't a market for coaching.
Oh, no.
And I just wanted to bring in
a civilian here and be like,
no, there's money being spent.
Absolutely.
I would guess that for example, Todd's
coach is not an expensive, not cheap.
Oh, not at all.
Yeah.
I couldn't tell you
exactly, but not cheap.
Yeah.
If she has 10 Todd's, she's doing great.
Yeah.
I love that you said that because
I often tell this audience, it
doesn't take a lot of relationships.
It doesn't take a, in this particular
business model, I may never have
more than a hundred clients total.
Yeah, absolutely.
In my career.
Yeah.
Because that's the nature of the model.
There's, there's an interesting
thing about the person that wants
coaching and can't afford it.
I get that.
But when you're dealing with
someone that has the means they do
start to kind of look everywhere.
For that up level they look for the
therapist, they look for the tutor for
their kid, they look for, I mean, if I
wanted to get into long rifle shooting
where you want to hit something a mile
away, which is absolutely worthwhile, I
would find, I would find someone that's
like, just teach me how much, like when I
wanted to learn how to butcher a chicken.
I just found the guy, the
chicken coach, if you will.
But you, you're like, I'm not
going to mess around with YouTube.
That, that's the thing.
It's like, I'm not going to
mess around with YouTube.
Let's cut to the chase.
There are a lot of people like me that
maybe aren't quite as neurotic, but a
lot of people like me, they're like,
I want to get the best I can get.
I don't want to waste my time.
I don't want to spend my wheels.
I mean, I'm really good
at lifting weights.
I know all the movements.
I totally have a coach and will never not.
It's just outsourcing.
That is.
Is fantastic, you know, and like
again and again and again, you get
those kinds of people that just,
yeah, like let's cut to the chase
and find someone great and get there.
Well, it's another thing I've
said on this podcast and I will
say it a million more times.
The people who buy coaching are the people
who are already converted to coaching.
Yes.
Your job is not to convert
someone to coaching.
Yeah, you don't want to coach that person.
I caught a clip of Noah Kagan.
You know who Noah Kagan is
He was, he's early at mint.
com and early at Facebook.
And now he has, he owns app sumo.
He's hard to track.
Cause he just kind of keeps,
he just does a lot of stuff.
I think he decided he wanted
to be a YouTube creator.
A little while ago.
That's how I, I, I funny guy.
I caught him on Tim Ferriss's podcast,
a YouTube clip of him on Tim Ferriss's
podcast, and they were talking about
coaching and Noah Kagan was like,
yeah, I just have a bunch of people
that I can pay a thousand dollars
an hour for, Whatever it is I need.
Yeah.
So if it's a people issue, I go to
this person and pay him a thousand
bucks an hour I want my audience to
know that that is the real world.
Yeah.
That's out there.
, I'm not saying it's easy to
become that person but it exists.
The market is there.
We're not trying to make
a market that isn't there.
It's there.
No, yeah, absolutely.
Folks, that's Jesse Mecham from YNAB.
Thanks for having me.
Thanks for being here.
Everyone should use YNAB.
Absolutely.
You got to love how you spend your money.
Spend all this time earning it.
Let's also love it when we spend it.
Awesome.
That's a podcast for coaches
and we'll talk to you next time.