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What started as an exploration of the devil in their show, The Exorcist Minute, has grown into something much greater. Find all the original episodes of the show and more right here in The Devil's Details with Lester Ryan Clark and Kynan Dias.
Coming up on the devil's details. Is it too late to get seven bowls of wrath to go? Revelation chapter 15. Good morning, Star, and welcome to another episode of the Devil's Details, a show where we dig up, decipher, dissect, and deconstruct the many forms of the devil. One of my names is Lesser Ryan Clark.
Kynan Dias:And I sometimes go by Keenan Diaz.
Lester Ryan Clark:And we're just two lost souls hitchhiking down the highway to hell. Keenan, am I wrong or take a look at this map here. I Mhmm. Isn't there supposed to be a river here?
Kynan Dias:Oh, we done took care of that. Don't you worry about that.
Lester Ryan Clark:Why are you saying it so suggestively? What did you what do you mean? We took care of the river of the river Euphrates.
Kynan Dias:Maybe we maybe we had some bowls. Uh-huh.
Lester Ryan Clark:Uh-huh.
Kynan Dias:Now you might think then we picked up the river with the bowls. Yeah. Yeah. But you would be you would be vastly mistaken.
Lester Ryan Clark:Be be be sorely mistaken. Oh, jeez. Oh, jeez. Well, hang on. Let's let's let's ask this guy if he knows what's up.
Lester Ryan Clark:He's he's he's kinda putting his his two arms up like like he's he's trying to flag us down. Excuse me, sir. We were just wondering what happened to the river. Oh, what's how does how does Moses sound? Oh, he sounds like Charlton Heston,
Kynan Dias:doesn't he? Right. Yeah. Exactly. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Get your car off the road, you damn dirty driver. Jeez. I'm sorry.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Sorry, Moses. Yeah. It's a bit busy, I guess.
Lester Ryan Clark:I know. Yeah. Alright. Well, I don't know. I I hang on.
Lester Ryan Clark:Let me let me check the the glove compartment here. Mhmm. Look at this. The holy bible. When in doubt and, when when, your map doesn't work anymore Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Bible is the next best thing. Yeah. Let's, crack this baby open and oh, and look here. It it opened right up on chapter 15 of Revelation. So let's have a read.
Kynan Dias:It's the shortest one, luckily.
Lester Ryan Clark:It is. Yeah. You know what they say? They say the the the shortest route to somewhere is a straight line. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Let's see let's see how straight this this thing is. This is Revelation chapter 15. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire. And them that had gotten the victory over the beast and over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name stand on the sea of glass having the harps of God.
Lester Ryan Clark:And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the lamb saying, great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are thy ways, thou king of saints. Who shall not fear thee, oh lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy. For all nations shall come and worship before thee, for thy judgments are made manifest.
Lester Ryan Clark:And after that I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened. And the seven angels came out of the temple having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave under the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God who liveth forever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power and no man was able to enter into the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. Oh, boy.
Lester Ryan Clark:Did we so we got we got seven sevens. We got we got we got more sevens here.
Kynan Dias:More sevens here.
Lester Ryan Clark:This is I'm back in Vegas, and and we just hit the jackpot, I think.
Kynan Dias:Do you wanna try to remember the sevens by memory here? We've got seven seven pillars.
Lester Ryan Clark:Uh-huh. Seven pillars.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Seven pillars. We got seven bowls.
Lester Ryan Clark:Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Kynan Dias:Yep. We got seven seals.
Lester Ryan Clark:Seven seals. Uh-huh.
Kynan Dias:Seven angels for that. We some other angels.
Lester Ryan Clark:Now we got seven more angels. Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. I think these yeah. I'm pretty sure these different. Are
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Those the the other ones had the trumpets. These are the these are the the angels with the plagues.
Kynan Dias:That's right. They sounded the seven trumpets as Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yep.
Kynan Dias:So this says it's gonna be the last of our plagues, maybe the last of our sevens. We'll see.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. Yes. Yes. Right. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Not seven beasts. No. There's only four beasts, but those aren't even beasts.
Kynan Dias:No. Yep. Seven heads, though.
Lester Ryan Clark:Seven heads, 10 horns. Okay. So this is this is also one that I'm not too familiar with. How about you?
Kynan Dias:No. I've never heard of seven bowls and seven vials or any of that. So doing this show is the first time I heard it.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Lester Ryan Clark:So yeah. So so folks, chapter 15 is is very short. It's only eight verses, but very important. It is the calm before the storm, the preparation for the final and most severe judgments. After chapter fourteen's preview of victory and judgment, chapter 15 sets up the seven bowl judgments that will be poured out in chapter 16.
Lester Ryan Clark:This is the point of no return in God's wrath against a rebellious world. This is the popular view, by the way. Mhmm. This is yeah. So, yeah, so let's look at these these seven last plagues.
Lester Ryan Clark:So are we so we're talking, like, this is the, like, the after this, no more plagues. These are the seven final ones.
Kynan Dias:That's what they're promising us. They're gonna pour them all out. Yeah. Okay. Alright.
Kynan Dias:I'm looking forward to how you might interpret these these wraths as something different than God's wrath. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. Alright.
Kynan Dias:I'm waiting. You did.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's like a challenge at this point. It's like, yeah, try your best. Alright. Yeah. Let's see this.
Lester Ryan Clark:Okay. So, yeah. So John sees, quote, seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them is filled up the wrath of God. These are explicitly called the last plagues, the final climactic judgments. After these, God's wrath is complete, filled up.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? He's completely full. Right? Mhmm. He'll never ever ever get angry again.
Lester Ryan Clark:Ever. But, yeah, popular inter interpretation sees these as the bowl judgments, most intense and devastating of all the tribulation judgments. We've already seen the seven seals back in chapter six. Back in chapter six.
Kynan Dias:Oh, six. Six. There we go.
Lester Ryan Clark:And and the seven trumpets, in chapters eight and nine Mhmm. The bulls are the final series of, these things. Worse than what came before, they are poured out rapidly one after another, bringing the tribulation to its catastrophic climax. The fact that they're called the last and that they fill up God's wrath means that it is no more judgments after this. These bulls complete his judgment.
Kynan Dias:Alright. Good.
Lester Ryan Clark:There we go.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Yeah. This is pretty nasty.
Lester Ryan Clark:Pretty nasty. Right? Saving the best for or the worst, I guess, for last. Right? Now before showing the angels with the bowls, John sees a vision of victory.
Lester Ryan Clark:People standing on a, quote, sea of glass mingled with fire. Those who, quote, had gotten the victory over the beast and over its image and over its mark and over the number of his name.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. This so we had seen a sea of glass before when John first gets to see Christ in in heaven in the throne room. Yes. So this is potentially now, as as all this terrible stuff is happening, the the earth is becoming more like heaven.
Lester Ryan Clark:There we go. Mhmm. Mhmm. And, yeah, popular interpretation identifies these as the tribulation martyrs. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:The people who are standing in victory. Right? They are believers who refused to worship the beast or take his mark during the tribulation. They were killed for their faithfulness and are now in heaven. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:The sea of glass echoes, right, just like Keenan said, chapter four verse six where there's like a sea of glass before God's throne, and they have harps of God, instruments for worship. Despite suffering and death, they're now celebrating. They've won. They have overcome not by defeating the beast militarily but by remaining faithful unto death. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Their victory was refusing to compromise and now they're vindicated in heaven. And then we got this we we got a mention of the song of Moses and song of the lamb. Right? Mhmm. So the victors are singing, quote, the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the lamb.
Lester Ryan Clark:So this these are the two kind of like major acts of deliverance in our in our biblical story. Right? So we got after God delivered Israel from Egypt through the Red Sea, drowning Pharaoh's army, Moses and the Israelites sang a song of victory. Right? This is Exodus chapter 15.
Lester Ryan Clark:And then the song of the lamb, obviously, this is Christ's death and resurrection. Mhmm. So these are these are the two songs of deliverance, and they're kind of like commingling commingling in heaven now.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. Right. So we've often like had callbacks to just the old testament like in Daniel or something like that, and then in other chapters or in other parts of the same chapter, we talk about Jesus, but but this is like these songs are united here.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. And now John sees, quote, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven opened. Seven angels come out clothed in pure white linen with golden sashes. These are priestly garments showing that they serve in God's temple. One of the four living creatures, remember those are the, the cherubim, from before, right, gives each angel a golden bowl quote, full of the wrath of God who liveth forever and ever.
Lester Ryan Clark:Okay. This interests me because even in the English translation, these living creatures which we have decided now are cherubim. Mhmm. Cherubim, which we have decided now are a type of angel. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Thanks to Saint Augustine and Thomas Aquinas. Right? Mhmm. Even this translation, the English translation of the book of Revelation seems to think of them as separate beings. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Seems to not it's not saying one of the four living creatures who are also angels, right, gives each angel a bowl. It doesn't it it it specifies angel as the as the the beings receiving the bowl. Right. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:So it almost feels like these quote unquote living creatures, these the the the beasts, were never meant to be referred to or thought of as angels?
Kynan Dias:That's what I thought. Yeah. But then they're described as as as how cherubim are described in other places.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. But what what I'm saying is Mhmm. All of that came after. That was after, you know, Thomas Aquinas did his whole little, you know, pokedex. Okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:And he decided as well, these are these are angels too.
Kynan Dias:Right? So they're not so they're not angels anymore. They're beasts.
Lester Ryan Clark:I mean, well, I I don't think they ever I wonder if they ever were.
Kynan Dias:Okay. Great.
Lester Ryan Clark:Because he would he John would say Mhmm. The angels handed the angels bowls.
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. And he doesn't say that. He says he
Kynan Dias:says agree.
Lester Ryan Clark:The living creatures hand the angels yeah. The the living creatures give each angel a bowl. Mhmm. So
Kynan Dias:Yeah. I agree. Alright. I'm glad. Okay.
Kynan Dias:There
Lester Ryan Clark:we go.
Kynan Dias:You know, 10 chapters, but great. I'm glad.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. But I get yeah. Yeah. Popular interpretation sees them as as as cherubim. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. But also popular interpretation has them having four heads, which I think is is also a misreading of this.
Kynan Dias:Okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. But yeah. But this is this is the the preparation for the final judgment. Right? The temple opening shows that this comes directly from God's presence.
Lester Ryan Clark:There you know, the angels are dressed dressed in priestly clothing, and these bowls are full of God's wrath. Mhmm. Whatever that means. And I but I think the bowls are meant to to it's to show that this isn't this like, this is this is the full wrath because we're gonna pour all of it out. We're not Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:You know, these these aren't the the dixie cups of judgment.
Kynan Dias:Or you mean there's like a fountain or a river that that replenishes. Yes.
Lester Ryan Clark:And each of the living creatures gave the angels a, you know, a small ladle. No. Right. They got
Kynan Dias:the bowls. The bowls are,
Lester Ryan Clark:you know, and they they gathered around the water cooler of wrath. No. This is these are these are the bowls. This is where the judgment is, and and and it's being emptied out completely.
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Alright. And then what do we think of the temple filling with smoke? Right? The temple filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no man was able to enter into the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. That's interesting because I thought I thought, like, we had our people who were our saints who were, you know, the martyred people. Like, they they've been around, but I kind of just assumed that that as soon as things start going, they get to, you know, move on and have their own, you know, their own day in heaven. But I guess this is saying they know they have to wait around, and I I don't know. Are they helping or are they just witnessing?
Lester Ryan Clark:I'm not sure. Mhmm. It seems to be the idea that that the smoke is it it's it's meaning that this act can't be interrupted. It's like it's it's like the temple closing its doors.
Kynan Dias:You can't stop what started here.
Lester Ryan Clark:Exactly. Right? So it's so it's like it's like putting a sign outside the door and say, like, meeting in progress or something like that. Right? I mean, not to be, you know the others were meant to be funny, but, like, that's I I, like, genuinely mean that.
Lester Ryan Clark:I think I think it's like it's like, no. Don't come in here. Like like, important stuff is happening.
Kynan Dias:No. I think you're being revered. You're not saying, like, the science says, if the temple's a rockin', don't come a knockin'.
Lester Ryan Clark:I'm not saying.
Kynan Dias:You're not saying that? No. No. That would be crass.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. Yes. That'd be that'd be unseemly
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:And and and not characteristic of our show. But no. It's like for me, it's it's it's kinda scary. It because like you have all of these, you know, it's like it's like the the martyrs are singing, the angels come down, the then they're singing, and and all of this celebration, and then, okay, now we're handing out the bowls of judgment, and suddenly the screen goes dark. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:You know, suddenly the temple fills with smoke. It's like, okay. Like like Mhmm. Scary stuff is happening now.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. Mhmm. Sorry. And there's nothing you do about it.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. Yeah. But, yeah, that's kind of the popular interpretation. Right? Now now that the final judgments are being poured out, no more intercession, no more mercy, this it it's it's it's go time.
Kynan Dias:Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Mhmm. Okay.
Kynan Dias:So final final.
Lester Ryan Clark:Final final.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. Armageddon.final.version4.finalfinal. Yes. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:We're almost to Armageddon. We are. So so okay. Great. So I can start using that term, I guess.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Yeah. Because because because I don't know about you, but Armageddon Nancy.
Kynan Dias:Alright. Alright.
Lester Ryan Clark:But, yeah, let's look at what some modern historians and some scholars say about this chapter Mhmm. And what it's supposed to tell So again, it's very very brief, but very very powerful. It's a transitional chapter that shows both the vindication of resistors and the inevitability of empire's judgment. Chapters 12 through 14 showed the beast's power and the call to patient endurance. Chapter 15 says, here's what victory looks like.
Lester Ryan Clark:Here's why empire's destruction is certain. This is John's assurance that resistance isn't futile and empire's fall isn't wishful thinking. It it is as certain as God's own glory. Right? That's what he's saying.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? Again, revisiting those plagues. Right? John sees seven angels having the seven last plagues for in them is filled up with the wrath of God. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:This echoes our plagues of Egypt. Mhmm. We're we're bringing all the hits back. God's judgment on Pharaoh's empire that enslaved Israel. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Egypt was an empire. This is another example. Just as those plagues forced Pharaoh to release God's people, these plagues represent the complete judgment on Rome and all future empires that enslave or oppress. Mhmm. So for first century readers suffering under Roman oppression, this was hope.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? God's judgment on empire is as certain as his judgment was on Egypt. Rome will fall as surely as pharaoh fell. Right? So making that callback to, hey.
Lester Ryan Clark:You know, I know it's really, really tough now under Caesar, but remember what happened to pharaoh. Mhmm. And, yeah, for for readers today, this establishes that empire's collapse isn't optional or uncertain. It's inevitable and complete. Just as Egypt fell, just as Rome fell, every empire that's ever existed has fallen.
Lester Ryan Clark:Britain fell at one point. The Soviet Union fell. Right? This pattern is absolute. The seven last plagues aren't about a future tribulation.
Lester Ryan Clark:They're about the certainty that oppressive systems contain the seeds of their own destruction. Empire's judgment is filled up complete, assured. The question isn't whether it will happen, but when. Mhmm. Right?
Kynan Dias:And I
Lester Ryan Clark:think I was like, that is the best way to say it. I was trying to say it last week, but I think that that's that's a better way to say it is they contain the seeds of their own destruction. Mhmm. If that makes any sense. It's just I think so.
Lester Ryan Clark:The the way that oppressive systems operate, they will eventually eat themselves. Mhmm. And, yeah, John sees those who, quote, had gotten the victory over the beast and over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name standing on quote a sea of glass mingled with fire. Right? So again, these aren't people in some future tribulation.
Lester Ryan Clark:They're John's community. The the the first century believers who refused to accommodate Rome. They got the victory not by defeating Rome militarily, but by refusing to worship the emperor, refusing to participate in the imperial cult, refusing to take Rome's mark. Right? That's, you know, like the economic system.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. This sea of glass, this is this is the the trials that they endured, right, mingled with fire. Mhmm. Suggests, purity, clarity, stability. The fire, represents the testing and the persecution.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. So we had seen the seal, the the the the sea of glass, up in heaven, but I don't remember if it was it was mingled with fire in this way.
Kynan Dias:I don't believe so. Right. It just seems to be like the natural state of things up there. Mhmm. But this is when it's coming out of the out of the tribulation, the survival through the tribulations.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's almost like
Kynan Dias:And end of the survival over not God's tribulation necessarily, but of the the Satan's tribulations.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. It's almost like a like like a metaphor for a chemistry lesson because it's like Mhmm. Like melting the earth into glass. You know what I mean? Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like and that's that's we're creating a mirror of, you know, the the sea of glass up in heaven, but we're doing it through fire, through, like, hardship and and struggle. Mhmm. But, yeah. Okay. Talking about Moses.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? The victors sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the lamb. Right? So connecting Exodus with liberation from the beast or Rome. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? Exodus 15 records Moses and Israel singing after God drowned Pharaoh's army in the Red Sea. Right? Quote, I will sing unto the Lord for he hath triumphed, triumphed gloriously. The horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
Lester Ryan Clark:That was the original song of liberation from empire. Now John's community sings the same song celebrating liberation from Rome through the lamb's pattern of sacrificial resistance. The song proclaims, great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are thy ways. All nations shall come and worship before thee for thy judgments are made manifest.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? So this is Exodus theology. Right? God judges empire and delivers the oppressed. What he did to Egypt, he'll do to Rome.
Lester Ryan Clark:The pattern repeats. Faithful community sings the ancient liberation song because they are experiencing this ancient liberation pattern. Mhmm. Right? For us today, this is cleaning the Exodus tradition for contemporary resistance.
Lester Ryan Clark:Every liberation movement can sing the song of Moses celebrating when empire falls, when systems of oppression collapse, when justice finally comes. The African American spirituals that sang of Exodus during slavery understood this. The liberation theology movements understood this. Right? You sing the song of Moses when you see empire's power broken, whatever empire means in that context.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. When the when the oppressor's army drowns in its own violence, when liberation comes, and you sing the song of the lamb because the pattern of Jesus faithful witness unto death followed by resurrection and vindication is how that liberation happens. The song combines the ancient pattern of Moses and Exodus with the new pattern, right, the lamb dying for resurrection. Mhmm. To say God liberates the oppressed by judging empire, and he does it through the pattern of faithful witness even unto death.
Lester Ryan Clark:So I like this. I like that I mean, you know, we we we joke about the the structure of of Revelation, but we are bringing the two versions of victory Mhmm. Back into one. Right? We have God didn't let us down.
Lester Ryan Clark:God, you know, delivered us from Egypt. Mhmm. And it was and it was through, you know, the the through Moses and the great miracle of the of of the sea parting and everything like that. And that was that was like this this big epic thing. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:But what can I do? What can you know, what about me? Right? Mhmm. And then we look at the song of the lamb, and it's like, ah, okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, following the pattern of Jesus, meaning, you know, it it it is the what would Jesus do. Right? Mhmm. Standing up for what is just, calling out the unjust, and not backing down and and even dying for it. Right?
Kynan Dias:Yeah. So, again, this is this is part of the reason why it might be, you know, interesting or rewarding to put this book last and to see this as as the ending. Again, it's not written that way. That's the end of the bible. You can see why, you know, when we start to unite both both the old and new testament together, we could see it as, you know, this fits here.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:And just wait till you all you will not believe what the last word of revelation is.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, yeah. Oh,
Kynan Dias:yeah. Just wait to everybody. You'll see.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. We're saying it like like like we hold the keys like we're keeping it from. Like, you can you guys can just go look if you want.
Kynan Dias:No. No. No. No.
Lester Ryan Clark:No. No. No. Okay. Okay.
Kynan Dias:They gotta hear from us first.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the name of the beast was Frankenstein.
Lester Ryan Clark:Okay. I wanna talk about this temple imagery though. Mhmm. So we got the temple of the these are all I again, I don't know I don't know how it was in the original Greek, but Mhmm. And and and how close the English translation is, but there is a lot of the blank of the blank of the blank.
Lester Ryan Clark:And as I'm reading, I think I'm done, and then there's one it's like I'm going it's like I'm going up the stairs Mhmm. And there's one more step.
Kynan Dias:The temple, the tabernacle, the testimony in heaven.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. The temple of the tabernacle. I can't even I'm look. I'm doing it slowly. The temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. Do you know the do you know Sing in the Rain very well? There's a tongue twister about Moses in there.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, no. I don't.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. So the so in the movie, they're silent movie stars, then sound comes to film, and so they have to do elocution lessons, you know? Uh-huh.
Lester Ryan Clark:So Like the rain in Spain in the
Kynan Dias:middle the Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So their version is Moses supposes his tozes are roses, but Moses supposes erroneously. Now Moses, he notices his tozes aren't roses, so why is it that Moses supposed them to be?
Lester Ryan Clark:And which chapter of revelation are we
Kynan Dias:gonna see that? Hopefully, Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. Hopefully. I've been waiting. Right? Right along with fuzzy wuzzy was a bear.
Kynan Dias:Was he?
Lester Ryan Clark:Fuzzy wuzzy had no
Kynan Dias:hair. Did he not?
Lester Ryan Clark:No. No. Wasn't very fuzzy, was he? Okay. But So the the temple of the Tabernacle Of the testimony in heaven Great.
Lester Ryan Clark:Was opened. Mhmm. I I've said that so many times now. Don't even know what that means. But yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:So, but, yeah, it is opened, and the seven angels come out of the temple having seen having these seven plagues. Right? They're they're clothed in pure. Okay. This is what I mean.
Lester Ryan Clark:This okay. And that right. I gotta I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna read it as it is written.
Kynan Dias:Okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:And you tell me Mhmm. How this sounds, Keenan. Mhmm. Okay. I'm starting on starting on verse five, and I'm gonna go through to verse six.
Lester Ryan Clark:K. And after that I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened. And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues clothed in pure and white linen.
Kynan Dias:That sounds great. You did it perfectly.
Lester Ryan Clark:Okay. But in in in an English language or English proficiency test, I would then ask you
Kynan Dias:Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:What was clothed in pure white linen? The seven angels or the seven plagues?
Kynan Dias:The seven plagues. Yes. Yes.
Lester Ryan Clark:That is how it is written here. Okay. Listeners, listen to this. This is verse six, and the seven angels came out of the temple having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen. Not, and the seven angels clothed in pure white linen came out of the temple, halving the seven plagues.
Lester Ryan Clark:That is how it should be.
Kynan Dias:I don't think John's accepting notes.
Lester Ryan Clark:No. He's not. This is oh god. I'm gonna get like like, when I end up, yeah, at the pearly gates, it's like, so you didn't like chapter 15 very much.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Well well, I guess who we got over here. Yeah. But I don't know
Lester Ryan Clark:that that it the seven angels came out of the temple Mhmm. Having the seven plagues clothed in pure white linen.
Kynan Dias:That's correct.
Lester Ryan Clark:I know what it what it's trying to say. Mhmm. But it it, like, threw me it it it keeps on throwing me off no matter how many times I read it. Mhmm. Yes.
Lester Ryan Clark:But so I'm I'm just trying to I'm just trying to say, listeners, this is a tough one to read. And we read Paradise Lost and Paradise Redeemed. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Okay. Alright.
Kynan Dias:We got these plagues.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. We got these plagues. And and and they're looking real nice because they're all
Kynan Dias:They're beautiful.
Lester Ryan Clark:They're they're clothed in white linen. Yes. So, yeah, for first century readers, right, this is saying that Rome's fall isn't just random chaos. It's divine judgment. It's righteous.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's necessary. It's coming from from God's very nature, and it is just and holy. And I think we get that from the fact that these are that this is like an organized ceremony. They are clothed in white linen, and they have these bowls, and the bowls are full. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? So Right. So it's not like it's it's not, you know, God cast his hand out and and, like, set just because he could do that. He could just say, it's like, let there be seven plagues. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:But it's we make a big to do of it. We dress the angels up. Right? When when was the last time we talked about what angels wore? Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? Mhmm. So they are wearing specifically this is like a ceremonial thing, and they have ceremonial bowls, meaning meaning this is official. This isn't this isn't just like happenstance. This isn't a coincidence.
Kynan Dias:Okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:And, yeah, for contemporary readers, this means empire's collapse isn't just historical accident or or or, like, you know, the economic cycle. It is the moral structure of the universe asserting itself. When the current big capital e empire falls, and it will, it won't be random. It will be judgment. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:The natural consequence of building power on violence and exploitation and injustice. Right? The the the bowls full of wrath aren't God throwing a tantrum. They are the inevitable result of systems that violate truth and justice, oppressive power. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:I guess you could almost think of it as so these bowls of wrath, we keep on talking about how full they are. Mhmm. Right? Who's filling them? The lord.
Lester Ryan Clark:Or is it us? Okay. So maybe these bowls are just kind of, like, set aside, you know, in their ceremonial places, and they get fuller and fuller and fuller because of all the violence down below. And this is the angels being like, alright. Gotta dump the bowls now.
Kynan Dias:Okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:Or this is god being like, okay. Like, look. You've you've you you guys are you you have filled these bowls so much with blood with violence that now they have to be poured out. Right? Almost like they're they're not bowls for, like, pouring things into.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's almost like they're they're for, like, catching rainwater or something like that.
Kynan Dias:Okay. Pouring them back down?
Lester Ryan Clark:And pouring them back down. Right? So violence begets like, violence upon like like, this is this is the fruit of your hateful actions.
Kynan Dias:Okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:But yeah. And then the temple is filled with smoke. Temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no man was able to enter into the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. Mhmm. So I have never associated God's goodness with smoke.
Kynan Dias:Well, I guess I guess sometimes we do with, like, incense and, you know, you know
Lester Ryan Clark:It's actually rituals,
Kynan Dias:muds smoke. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Mhmm. But that's like that's like prayers going up to God. Mhmm. That's like it it kind of like a visual, like, helper for, like, when we're praying and it's like, oh, oh, it's all rising.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's all it's all going up to God. Mhmm. But God himself I mean, like, I know, you know, we we've talked before in the in the Paradise Lost season about how God is is often depicted within a cloud. Right? Like, he's unknowable.
Lester Ryan Clark:He's he's unseeable. Like like, nothing can reach him. He's Mhmm. He's he's unfathomable. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:That's a hard word to say, unfathomable. Right?
Kynan Dias:Right. And as unpredictable as the weather or something.
Lester Ryan Clark:Exactly. Right? Mhmm. And I guess we could think of it in that way that now that now that the last final judgments are being poured out upon us Mhmm. The the entire temple kind of becomes God in in that, like, it it gets filled up with the cloud.
Lester Ryan Clark:Alright. But there's an additional element. Right? Nobody can enter until the plagues are complete. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:This means no intercession, no stopping the judgment, no turning back. Right? Empire has reached the point of no return. For first century readers, this said Rome's judgment is certain and unstoppable. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:We are past the point where Rome could repent Mhmm. Or where it could like change course. And for us today, right, this speaks to the irreversibility of empire's collapse once it reaches a certain point. Right? There comes a moment when systems have been have have so thoroughly corrupted themselves, have so completely committed to violence and exploitation that collapse is inevitable and no intervention can stop it.
Lester Ryan Clark:I I did not expect this today, but we we actually just got the news Mhmm. Today that Greg Bovino, border control commander, a former border control commander, he he was the senior official, for the US border patrol. He has been fired. Mhmm. And I just cannot help but think of that as we are going through, this chapter.
Lester Ryan Clark:It it it I guess I guess also between this episode and the last episode, we we did have another ICE related death Mhmm. With Alex Preti Mhmm. Was was shot in Minneapolis. Mhmm. Was murdered in Minneapolis.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. And I just keep on thinking about this passage passage how this this ramping up of the violence cannot this type of thing cannot be sustained. It can't it it doesn't have the legs to stand on. And and and, yeah, the the collapse is inevitable. I tell my students because a lot of them are afraid and and, you know, a lot of them wonder about this and wonder about the future.
Lester Ryan Clark:And I say, even though, you know, like, you know, I can't I can't say for certain, but I say, evil like this is doomed to fail. It's it's already standing on on really, really skinny legs. Mhmm. The the only way they're gonna win is if our president takes over the whole world and then lives forever. And neither of those things is gonna happen.
Kynan Dias:So Alright. Yay. Yeah. Players looking up. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. And already, we can see things starting to fall apart. Right? Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:What is that famous poem? The system the center doesn't hold. Right? Mhmm. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Things fall apart. I think he was was talking about good institutions decaying. So maybe maybe maybe not a good quote for for for this instance. But Mhmm. But yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:But yeah. Like like, when the temple fills with smoke and no one can enter or intercede, it means the system has passed the point where reform is possible. Only collapse remains. This it's not sadistic. It's realistic.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Some systems become so broken, so committed to death dealing that they cannot be saved, only survived. The question isn't whether they'll fall, but whether we'll go down with them or stand apart on the sea of glass having refused participation. Mhmm. There is going to come a time when suddenly, magically, everyone was against this.
Kynan Dias:And then fifty years after that, everyone will say, oh, maybe it wasn't so bad.
Lester Ryan Clark:Was Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's a cycle. But but what I'm saying is and and that's not even my quote. Like, I'm I'm actually, like, I I stole it from somebody. I I saw it on Facebook. Somebody said, like like, in a few years, everybody like like, everybody will say, it's like, oh, this was all terrible.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, I I, you know, I was against this. And Right. Well Mhmm. The problem with that, though, and this is what I tell my students, is, like, maybe you could say that after World War two. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Maybe the Germans could say it's like, we had no idea about the camps. Oh my gosh. We had no idea. The problem with trying to say that today is that we have receipts. The Internet exists.
Lester Ryan Clark:Nothing is ever erased. So you can you can scrub your your profile all you want. You can you can take down all those pictures of you standing in front of Alligator Alcatraz and that little, you know, avatar that says, I love ice raids and, you know, and all and, you know, your your little ice ice baby memes, and you can you can take all that down. Mhmm. But somebody saved it somewhere.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. What's his name? Lizard guy.
Kynan Dias:Lizard guy. Steven Miller?
Lester Ryan Clark:No. No. That's the guy. That's anal polyp guy.
Kynan Dias:Steve Irwin? No.
Lester Ryan Clark:No. He cared about lizards. Was a man. Yeah. Zuckerberg.
Kynan Dias:Oh, okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:No. I'm I'm trying to say Mhmm. Zuckerberg probably has it, like, a hard drive or somewhere.
Kynan Dias:Sure. You know? Right. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:So so yeah. So there's no like like but that's I I I think that's another way to to look at this is, like, once the collapse starts, there's no there's no it's like, hey, I was just kidding. You can't you can't walk back. Like like anybody who who filmed themselves Mhmm. Doing Elon's little salute.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. You're not like, you can't be like, I was just kidding. Mhmm. You can't you can't walk that back. Like Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, there's not like, he can't walk that back. Like, that's that's gonna that's gonna be in the history books. Right? And jeez, what a picture. Because it's like, it's it's right in front of the presidential seal of The United States Of America.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right?
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:That is gonna be in our great grandkids history books. Mhmm. And we can't erase it. We can't, like, pretend it didn't happen because, you know, everybody's Mhmm. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:But but yeah. I mean, so, you know, there you go. Popular belief chapter 15 is talking about, like, these seven bowls of judgment. Right? They're the final, you know, wave of God's wrath.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? It's the most severe. Right? But what we could look at this as is these these last seven plagues are the last kind of death throes of an oppressive system. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? I think I've talked before about extinction burst. Right? Mhmm. And if if you don't know what that is, Google it and it will make you feel better.
Lester Ryan Clark:Alright.
Kynan Dias:Well, when we when you find out next week, because you are not allowed to read the Bible without our permission. Yes. What these what these plagues are. We'll see how how well they line up with what Lester's sources are saying.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Yeah. Wrath.
Lester Ryan Clark:My prediction? Mhmm. It'll be up for interpretation. But folks, this has been another episode of the Devil's Details. I've been Lester Ryan Clark.
Lester Ryan Clark:You can summon me on all the socials as Lester Ryan Clark.
Kynan Dias:And I've been Keenan Diaz, and you can invoke me on Instagram and Letterbox as Howdy Keenan.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Find more of our shows and other really cool podcasts at truestory.fm, or you can drop us a message at banana for scale mail. That's mail@Gmail.com. We got a Facebook listener group, banana for scale. That's community for all of our shows, including this one.
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Lester Ryan Clark:Alright, folks. Until next week. Love and hisses.