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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00] Sonia: Welcome to Sisters in Sobriety. Today, we're excited to have a very [00:01:00] special guest, Hillary Scheinbaum, the brilliant mind behind GoingDry. co. And Going Dry is a platform that revolutionizes how we view and experience socializing without alcohol. And it has a mission to create more inclusive and enjoyable experiences.
[00:01:16] Sonia: Hillary and her team organize non alcoholic parties. Pop up bars, panels and private events. They also curate non alcoholic menus for bars, restaurants, and hotels, and provide engaging mocktail classes and sessions from New York city to Maui. Going dry is making waves and changing the conversation around sobriety.
[00:01:39] Kathleen: Hillary is also the author of the bestselling book, the dry challenge and the going dry workbook exercises and activities, which offer valuable resources for those on their journey to sobriety. Today we are excited to delve into the inspiring work of going dry, explore how to enjoy a vibrant social life [00:02:00] without alcohol and learn more about Hillary's personal journey and insights.
[00:02:05] Kathleen: Welcome Hillary.
[00:02:06] Hilary: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
[00:02:09] Kathleen: Yay! Can you start just by sharing a little bit about
[00:02:14] Kathleen: your personal journey
[00:02:16] Hilary: admit, I'm not 100 percent sober, although I drink significantly less than I used to. Um, but back in my former life, I was a red carpet reporter, and I was regularly interviewing every celebrity, like the Kardashians, and Brad Pitt, and Meryl um, every housewife that you've seen on Bravo.
[00:02:39] Hilary: Uh oh. And that was like my quote unquote day job, but it all started at like 5 p. m. and would sometimes go until 2 a. m. if I was attending after parties after these red carpets, and then movie premieres, know, late and into the, the morning hours. So during the day, I was also [00:03:00] freelancing in the food and beverage space, primarily, and a lot of that was, you know, was about Um, so I would cover like the new cocktail trends. Um, I would go to wine tastings. Um, everything in that like realm um, basically open to being covered by, you know, yours truly. Um, and I was writing for Eater and USA Today and Am New York, which is a local New York paper. Um, and eventually I actually had a column in.
[00:03:31] Hilary: Forbes about women in the wine, beer, and spirit industries. So all of that um, when a friend and I had dinner in late 2016, and he asked me, A, did I have any New Year's resolutions? I said, no, because I don't believe in, you know, changing on January 1st. I think that you can do it anytime of the year, anytime of the week, anytime of the month.
[00:03:54] Hilary: And B, he asked me if I had heard about this thing called Dry January, to which I [00:04:00] kind of like, internally scoffed because it was so Not in alignment with my career or my lifestyle Um, you know being a 20 something in new york and just having fun with my friends and going on dates and not having to um, so with all of that, um on new year's eve 2016 um, I was wishing him a happy new year and I Proposed that we engage in a dry january vet You And so, he agreed, and the premise was that whoever drank in the month of January would have to buy the other person, the winner, dinner, anywhere in New York City, which is pretty pricey.
[00:04:43] Hilary: Um, and, long story short, he ended up drinking about, like, three weeks in, two and a half weeks in, and I made it the entire month, and I felt so amazing. Like, It sounds so cliche, but it changed my [00:05:00] perspective on so many things and it ended up changing my career and my life and, um, nothing was ever the same.
[00:05:08] Hilary: So, uh, since then I've done dry January every year since and certainly a number of sober months in between um, longer stretches of time well. and and yeah, it's, it's kind of set off a domino effect in, you know, both my life and my career yeah, ended up writing a book and now a second book yeah,
[00:05:28] Kathleen: that's incredible. What does, what does moderating then look like for
[00:05:33] Hilary: it's interesting. I think that it has evolved over time. So, you know, the first year, I don't think a lot of things changed. And in present day, if I am interested in having a glass of wine, I will have about half a glass and that's it. A lot of what I preach trying non alcoholic beverages as a substitute for [00:06:00] alcoholic ones, whether you you know, completely sober or if you are doing a dry month or even if you are currently drinking and you want to alternate just to drink less.
[00:06:09] Hilary: and so often I will compare you know, original version of a cocktail to the non alcoholic so that I can speak. You know, in an educated way about what is the most comparable.
[00:06:23] Kathleen: Mm-Hmm.
[00:06:25] Hilary: recently, I think, it's getting better, like, there, um, is a bit of a difference between wines, specifically, and especially red wines are really hard to match the taste and the body and things like that.
[00:06:37] Hilary: So I want to, I always want to be honest when people ask me, they're like, what's your favorite non alcoholic wine? And I'm like, all right, well, this is going to be the closest you're going to get to this one. But if you like this, you, you know, almost like being like a non alcoholic song in a way. But, um, but yeah, I, I, it's very rare that I drink.
[00:06:57] Hilary: And even on, you know, the occasions where I find [00:07:00] myself being like, here's a reason to celebrate. I'm like, this is great because I'm not going to have a hangover tomorrow. So
[00:07:06] Kathleen: So not having a hangover, I guess, was, a benefit of your first dry January that you did. But as you've done that every year, what are some of more of the unexpected benefits that you, you've discovered since
[00:07:21] Hilary: Yeah, hangovers are killer. Um, I think a big one for me, especially the first year, was my quality of you the first time I did a dry I didn't think much about how alcohol was affecting my sleeping patterns. Um, even if I was just like drinking on the weekend, it really didn't occur to me that it was like carrying over and also.
[00:07:46] Hilary: Um, I was getting like four to five hours of sleep a night and being able to just like run on adrenaline as like a 20 something. And it wasn't you know, ten days into my first drive January where I started [00:08:00] sleeping like seven to eight hours a night. And I realized like, oh, it's not just because I'm anxious know, live in a crazy busy city and loud near my apartment.
[00:08:09] Hilary: It was a lot to do with, you know, waking up in the middle of the night and just how alcohol affects your body you're first dozing off and then suddenly your brain and body is in overdrive and, you know, everything's kind of kicking in. So, that was a big thing too.
[00:08:26] Kathleen: So sleep was better. It sounds like anxiety. Like you noticed that your anxiety Um, my skin was much
[00:08:33] Hilary: like, my friends are always like, what are you using as far as skin care? And I'm like, you just stop drinking. It's the best.
[00:08:39] Kathleen: Mm
[00:08:39] Hilary: It'll do far more
[00:08:40] Hilary: like, cleanser. Um, think, like, financial savings is a big one.
[00:08:45] Hilary: Even, it's so funny because a lot of, I shouldn't say like, you know, every now and then people will say, like, Oh, it's fine, like, we're bringing our booze, it's, like, less expensive. Or, you know, somebody else is buying cocktails bar, like, and treating you to them, like, that's so nice. But [00:09:00] also, the um, transportation to get to and from somewhere.
[00:09:04] Hilary: Also like the munchies at night, the next morning when you're eating something greasy and getting it delivered because you're too hungover. All of those expenses obviously do not exist when you're not and
[00:09:17] Hilary: yeah, there's just so many. I think like a lot of my friendships and relationships changed at first, not necessarily for the better, but in the long run for the better because weeded out people who not, like, respectful of my goals, and also that I realized we didn't have as much in common with when, you know, we weren't drinking together.
[00:09:36] Hilary: So, a lot. A lot in a short
[00:09:39] Sonia: Hillary, do you, when you look back now that you've had some time, do you think that there was an issue either by the volume you were consuming or did you ever use it as a crutch or was it more just something that you use
[00:09:52] Sonia: to socialize?
[00:09:54] Hilary: more to socialize. I think that in general, I always say, like, [00:10:00] being a red carpet reporter, it's not, I don't know if confidence is the right word, but, like, you don't. You're not scared or like nervous about talking to people. I know that alcohol is obviously a social lubricant, but when you are so like thrown into these extremely like anxiety producing situations where you have to spit out questions on your toes and it's with a celebrity and there's also a publicist who's about to shut you off.
[00:10:27] Hilary: I don't think that really, um, was like a qualifier for me, but at the same time, like I definitely, you know, used to go out a lot in my 20s, but I wasn't drinking every night. Even if it was like, there was an open bar for work, or like a wine tasting, a lot of times I'd be like, spitting it out in the buckets, which isn't the most attractive thing, but like, I wasn't, having three hour wine lunches just because, and
[00:10:54] Hilary: It's, it's definitely a far cry from where I am now, but. Yeah, there were definitely, [00:11:00] you know, days and weeks that I didn't drink either.
[00:11:02] Sonia: So how long into this experiment did you start thinking about going dry?
[00:11:08] Hilary: so, 2017 was my first Dry January, and then my book, The Dry Challenge, came out in December of 2020, and it launched when Obviously, we were not allowed to gather, especially in New York, um, things were very strict and I never had like a book launch party or was able to really like celebrate my book with other people.
[00:11:33] Hilary: And so when things finally eased up a bit in New York and regulations were a little bit more chill, I invited, this is going to sound ridiculous, but 45 friends to a spin class. and said, we are celebrating, it was literally for, I was applying it, like no drink November. So it was November of 2021, almost a year after my book published.
[00:11:55] Hilary: And I said, we're coming, we're coming together. We're celebrating my book. We're going to do, um, an [00:12:00] activity that does not involve foods. And then we're going to have some non alcoholic beverages after class. And the entire class was full. And afterwards, feedback was just like, Obviously people were so excited to gather again, but they were relieved that it wasn't for, centered around drinking.
[00:12:17] Hilary: And so from November, 2021, I just kept on throwing these non alcoholic events. And so they would range from workout classes to, going and getting like IV drips or like vitamin shots and meditating and, um, you know, just having different experiences that where people, even like dinners. non alcoholic happy hours on rooftops and just having like an invitation where people could gather and not feel the pressure of drinking or even if they wanted to drink like they could do that after but you know this was kind of a space where people were creating friendships and like definitely catching up with old friends too [00:13:00] and you know able to enjoy themselves without all so um i made it i guess i changed the name because i was just like oh we're getting together like for doing this.
[00:13:11] Hilary: And then I just finally gave it a real name in February, but it had been going on for far longer than that.
[00:13:17]
[00:13:17] Kathleen: so how would you describe then the primary mission and goals of
[00:13:22] Kathleen: GoingDry. co?
[00:13:24] Hilary: So first off, once like the dry challenge came out, because obviously I used to work in booze to a degree, writing about it, like promoting it, um, all those things. I think that, first of all, I've had like a mini identity crisis, and then I think everybody else had like an
[00:13:42] Hilary: identity crisis for me. Um, but I was still like socializing and going out to these bars and realizing that a lot of them did not have non alcoholic beverages that I was, providing to my events.
[00:13:54] Hilary: And so, I started kindly pestering [00:14:00] beverage directors and bar owners and telling them, I am your consumer, like I'm showing up here and if you want me to buy a Diet Coke that's fine and I will because I love it. But also you could be making more money if you had something, more elevated here.
[00:14:15] Hilary: You could, and they do, people in New York charge 18 for a non alcoholic cocktail. So it was a bit of a personal, almost like selfish reasoning, but also realizing that there are other people in New York after throwing all these events that were also looking for the same experiences.and so the mission primarily is just to have more inclusive options when it comes to menus, when it comes to spaces, when it comes to events, and just like creating friendships and relationships and kind of, not like giving people the tools.
[00:14:49] Hilary: I'm not sitting there and like lecturing people and telling them, here are some, here are my tips of the week. But instead,
[00:14:55] Hilary: just opening the doors to allow that to happen.
[00:14:58] Kathleen: it sounds like for [00:15:00] those who are sober curious, or who are moderating, or who are sober, you you don't like prescribe what you need to be, but it's like here are the options for you of like how to still engage and socialize
[00:15:13] Hilary: Totally. And even if people just want to take a night off, I think. A lot of times, especially in multiple, cities and, and all kinds of industries, and I can only speak for, you know, SMB and media, who go to, you go to networking events, you go on dates, you go to cocktail hours, and you're almost, like, obligated to have a drink in hand that, you're being served, and if there aren't options, it's, like, okay, I want to be in this space, but now I feel uncomfortable or I feel like I don't fit in.
[00:15:45] Hilary: And, yeah, I think it's just like really important to have those spaces where, where we can be. I think all spaces should be that way, but I'm working on it. So one by one,
[00:15:55] Sonia: So Hillary, what challenges did you face when you first started going
[00:15:59] Sonia: [00:16:00] dry?
[00:16:01] Hilary: I think for me, um, the first time I did a dry challenge was obviously the most interesting. some of those challenges like that I faced included like answering questions that I just wasn't ready for. You know, like, are you pregnant? Are you sick?
[00:16:17] Kathleen: Hmm, mhm,
[00:16:19] Hilary: the point of this if you're gonna drink again on February 1st?
[00:16:22] Hilary: And that last one I really didn't have an answer to because it was just an experiment for me to begin with and I didn't know if it would benefit me at the end of the day, which very much it did. so I think those were all challenges and, learning experiences. I think with launching, going through i.
[00:16:42] Hilary: co. You know, I think there's just like a different mentality for everyone, right? Like, I'll always have open doors. I think sometimes people who I'll continue to invite to my events just have no interest in non alcoholic beverages. Sometimes I'll talk [00:17:00] to, bar owners and say that they are in the business of selling alcohol.
[00:17:03] Hilary: And I'm like, but I think you're in the business of hospitality. But, it's not my job to tell them what they're there for. But, I, I make my argument and if they don't agree, then that's okay too. So, there's definitely been pushback. I don't think it's, it hasn't always been like warm and fuzzy, but I'll take the warm and fuzzy moments when I can, because those are always wins.
[00:17:25] Hilary: I will say that I have partnered with, a few different hotels, including the Four Seasons in Jackson Hole, up next is the Four Seasons in Santa Fe. I've worked with the Fairmont in Maui, and they have been all so great. you can go to, Jackson Hole and order a glass of Eason Zero Percent, which is non alcoholic wine.
[00:17:50] Hilary: And they have a full cocktail menu, non alcoholic cocktail menu, um, that's available as well. And I think, you know, the more and more that people [00:18:00] have these things available, the more people who are ordering them and the more people who are catching on. Even like, especially with travel, I think a lot of use vacations as, um, an opportunity to overserve themselves.
[00:18:13] Hilary: And, um, I think it's great that like Chase in their lounges, you can get non alcoholic cocktails as well. We all have seen the people who are drinking at 7am in the airport. And so I think having non alcoholic beverages again is a huge plus. so little by little,
[00:18:32] Kathleen: I love that and I, I have seen more non alcoholic beverages grow but it is such a treat to be able to go to a, a beautiful upscale hotel and have like a full menu, right, of non alcoholic beverages. What sort of feedback have you received from venues that have collaborated with goingdry.
[00:18:57] Kathleen: co? [00:19:00] Right.
[00:19:04] Hilary: first and foremost, the beverage directors, some of them are like aware of the non alcoholic options, some of them have heard of some or they've tried some and some are just like completely in, I don't want to say in the dark, but maybe a little bit in denial.
[00:19:18] Hilary: But overall, I tend to have tried more options than most, and so I think that the feedback is. overwhelmingly positive because I'm only presenting them with the best of the best and saying like here's something again like going back to tasting traditional cocktails and being able to compare it like I already know what I'm up against and I already know what the best match is um and I obviously want to give them that choice too I will ask them like what are your consumers typically ordering when they come in what are they asking for but my I always use the example too of like It's so much better to have it on your menu and have people be able to point to it and say I want that, because you're not going to walk into an [00:20:00] Italian restaurant and order something that's not on the menu.
[00:20:02] Hilary: people would look at you like you have five heads. So when people say to me, oh, we can make anything non alcoholic, I always say put that in writing. Like, make it official. Um, so I think that has been also feedback that bars, restaurants, and hotels have appreciated and have come back and said like, okay.
[00:20:19] Hilary: That's right. People are ordering it now because they know it's
[00:20:21] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Mm
[00:20:23] Sonia: So when you're curating these menus, what are you taking into account? are there, some menus you've done where you have like, Oh, you know [00:21:00] what? We're going to offer pre made, um, mocktails or pre mixed. and some where you're like, we need a higher end red wine, alcohol free wine. So how do you go
[00:21:10] Sonia: about figuring
[00:21:11] Sonia: that out?
[00:21:11] Sonia: Yeah.
[00:21:12] Hilary: it's a great question. So first, I take a look at what they already have in terms of both cocktails and non alcoholic options. if they want to make, a lot of people want to show off their venues bartending skills. So if they want to make those from scratch, whether they're using a non alcoholic spirit or they're using like a base like tea or something else, um, I look at the ingredients that they already have on the menu so that I'm not walking into like their kitchen, their space, their home and telling them like you need to purchase like 10 fresh pineapple every week.
[00:21:44] Hilary: that's none of my business and I don't get too deep into the margins of people, but like I also want to make it approachable for the people behind the bar who are already on a daily basis, and either in a time crunch or that sort of thing. So That's [00:22:00] one thing. Second of all, if they already have non alcoholic cocktails on the menu, my first question is, would you be open to adding non alcoholic beers or non alcoholic wines?
[00:22:10] Hilary: I think especially in the beer category, I think that it's the most advanced of the three. I mean, you can make anything taste like a cocktail, but the non alcoholic beer has been around and has been growing and evolving, I think, for longer than non alcoholic wine, which. and still laugh in some ways.
[00:22:29] Hilary: So, those are the first few things that I look at. The ingredients that are already on the menu that can easily be, used for a non alcoholic beverage and whether they have non alcoholic wines available and non alcoholic beers. Um, because, yeah, when you're craving a beer or you're craving a wine, that's what you're gonna, I don't know, like, sometimes people will switch up and say like, oh, okay, I'll have a non alcoholic cocktail, but, Admittedly, I know, and like my friends too, they'll be like, Oh, I would have had a non alcoholic wine, but the only thing they have is the foolproof version.
[00:22:58] Hilary: So I guess that's what we're [00:23:00] ordering.
[00:23:00] Kathleen: I was shocked to learn this week that my, so my boyfriend is not sober, but he has really, really changed how he drinks and how much he drinks. Um, and Sonia, you'll be interested to hear this too.
[00:23:15] Kathleen: Good. The other day like I thought he was drinking beer and then he
[00:23:19] Kathleen: wasn't he was drinking non
[00:23:21] Kathleen: alcoholic beer and
[00:23:22] Kathleen: I was like, what?
[00:23:23] Kathleen: Why and yeah, I was like what and he yes, apparently he has it in his home And it wasn't even like he was showing it off to me being like look at me not drinking Like it was just an afterthought and he said to me, you know Kathleen Non alcoholic beers have really evolved over the
[00:23:42] Kathleen: years
[00:23:42] Sonia: so you guys are coming next week. I'm going to get him some non alcoholic beer.
[00:23:47] Kathleen: exactly.
[00:23:48] Sonia: excited.
[00:23:48] Kathleen: Do you know what brand he was
[00:23:50] Kathleen: No, I have
[00:23:51] Kathleen: no idea.
[00:23:51] Hilary: I'm gonna put a, I'm gonna put a bet and say that he was probably drinking athletic because
[00:23:57] Sonia: Oh,
[00:23:58] Sonia: yeah.
[00:23:59] Hilary: [00:24:00] It's like the highest selling beer in Whole Foods. Like beer, period. Not non alcoholic. Yeah. They're out of Connecticut. They have like, blown up. Don't quote me on this, but I feel like they are worth like half a billion dollars.
[00:24:13] Hilary: And they've only been around for a couple of years.
[00:24:15] Kathleen: And it tastes like, cause I don't like beer. So I never did even when I was drinking and I can't imagine I would now, but it tastes like beer, right? Like,
[00:24:22] Kathleen: is
[00:24:22] Kathleen: that it? It tastes like
[00:24:23] Kathleen: beer.
[00:24:24] Hilary: I gotta admit, I'm not the biggest beer drinker, like, on a regular basis anyway, but yes. And I also feel like a lot of them have the taste of beer, but it doesn't have thataftertaste that I don't know what it is. But that would always get me and I was like, this is too much. And, um, a lot of them don't.
[00:24:41] Kathleen: Wow. Well, I'm glad you mentioned that. He'll be very excited that there'll be non alcoholic beer at Sonia's house next week.
[00:24:49] Sonia: I'm excited. I'm looking on Amazon right now. I think I'm going to get a variety pack of
[00:24:54] Kathleen: let's do it. I'll try a
[00:24:55] Kathleen: beer first time in 20
[00:24:56] Kathleen: years, a non alcoholic beer. I know. I know. [00:25:00] Okay. So I have a question about, organizing non alcoholic pop up events at bars.
[00:25:06] Hilary: Yeah.
[00:25:07] Kathleen: how is this different to organize it when it's non alcoholic than you would normally?
[00:25:14] Kathleen: Would you think?
[00:25:16] Hilary: I feel like there's only positives. Like you're not gonna deal with belligerent people or like people who are getting like
[00:25:26] Hilary: feisty or like weird. I don't know. Maybe people will get weird, but like in a good way. I think it's just like a more positive experience,
[00:25:34] Kathleen: Does it wrap up at a normal time or is
[00:25:36] Kathleen: it like, does it go later? Like it lets it go earlier? No. Right. It does it. It's like at a
[00:25:41] Kathleen: normal
[00:25:41] Kathleen: time.
[00:25:43] Hilary: I try to get to sleep as early as possible,
[00:25:45] Hilary: but I feel like the ones that I've thrown, they usually will start at like 30 and wrap by like 8, 8
[00:25:50] Kathleen: gosh. I love
[00:25:51] Hilary: like the stragglers. And then it's like, okay, we're on home. Like, see you later.
[00:25:56] Hilary: yeah, we had, so last year for sober [00:26:00] October had, um, a Sober October, like, party on a rooftop called, um, Unlisted.
[00:26:06] Hilary: It's on the Lower East Side. And we served, three different non alcoholic cocktails. One was, like, this matcha goodness. I don't even remember, I think it must have been, like, with free spirits or full air was in it. and I remember just people were just sipping it all night and not feeling, obviously, a buzz.
[00:26:23] Hilary: Some people were like, are you sure this doesn't have alcohol in it? Because it was almost, um, placebo.
[00:26:28] Hilary: It's no, there's nothing, there's caffeine in the matcha, but like, you're, you're fine. Like you're, you could drive if we drove here. Um, and yeah, some people were just like, this is, this actually tastes good.
[00:26:41] Hilary: I'm like, what did you think it was going to taste like?
[00:26:43] Kathleen: Like Earth. It's going
[00:26:44] Kathleen: to taste
[00:26:44] Hilary: It's all the good stuff. Right. Right. Um, I will say though, like one of the funniest things that I've, funny slash weird things is I'll teach. like non alcoholic cocktail classes, sometimes at this gym called Chelsea Piers.
[00:26:59] Hilary: There's a [00:27:00] few different locations in New York and I've taught them like in other spaces too, but at Chelsea Piers specifically, like I was making a Paloma and I had these like non alcoholic spirits on the table and I purposely don't give all of the information on the instructions because I don't want people skipping
[00:27:18] Hilary: ahead. it's like like kindergarteners, you're like
[00:27:20] Hilary: don't touch, follow directions. And I remember somebody went to go like pour themselves a shot of like non alco I don't remember if it was for the Paloma or for the next drink, but like non alcoholic gin and they took it like a shot and I was like, sir, that is,
[00:27:36] Sonia: I
[00:27:37] Hilary: I don't know what that's going to do to you.
[00:27:38] Hilary: I mean, clearly it's not going to give you a buzz, but that's not what that's for. Um, so yeah, interesting, interesting
[00:27:45] Kathleen: For sure.
[00:27:50] Sonia: the taste of alcohol.
[00:27:51] Kathleen: I loved
[00:27:51] Kathleen: gin. Oh my God. Gin
[00:27:53] Kathleen: was my favorite.
[00:27:54] Sonia: Ugh.
[00:27:56] Kathleen: whiskey, Sonia. I know!
[00:27:59] Sonia: [00:28:00] Gross.
[00:28:01] Kathleen: the cocaine I was doing that
[00:28:03] Kathleen: let me
[00:28:03] Sonia: Yeah. You couldn't
[00:28:04] Sonia: taste it. Your palate was numb.
[00:28:10]
[00:28:10] Hilary: what to say.
[00:28:14] Sonia: Hilary, can you talk to us a little bit about the difference between the events you've had in different cities, so the difference between New York, for example, and Maui?
[00:28:24] Hilary: Yeah. so so Maui, I took three journalists with me to, um, the Fairmont to experience a drive trip. It wasn't just an event. It was like a five day excursion. Um, so that one was interesting and actually really cool because it really showcased, everything from like, we took, um, Alaska Airlines that, and they now have like non alcoholic beer on board.
[00:28:49] Hilary: So it's definitely more inclusive than a lot of other, flight menus. then we landed in Maui, we had non alcoholic, cocktails at like happy hour and [00:29:00] dinners and stuff like that by the pool, etc. But we also, we were able to do all these non alcoholic, well, just activities, right? Not non alcoholic activities, activities.
[00:29:10] Hilary: Like we went and volunteered, um, we went and, you know, had a spa day, we had like other, cool things that we were looking forward to and got to participate at. And then. It was just like a really, cool experience. I think very eye opening for, um, the women who came along. So that's, that's Maui.
[00:29:29] Hilary: I think in, did one in Atlanta at the end of January of last year, of this year, sorry, and it was so cool. I have never seen so many people walk into a non alcoholic bottle shop in a matter of two hours. It was mind blowing. I made a few like free spirit cocktails for the guests and I signed books and everyone was just like super excited and like the foot traffic was amazing which is like you expect that in Manhattan all the time but this was like you know like a bottle [00:30:00] shop which people were just like driving there are like weekly um non alcoholic beverages and their staff is amazing they like knew everything so very like community oriented Same thing with Charleston.
[00:30:14] Hilary: I had, like a two hour period where I was serving decent 0 percent wines after people's cycling classes and their yoga classes. So people were like coming out of these, very sweaty workouts and, greeted with wine, but everyone was like, Oh, it's non alcoholic. That's great. Cause there, there is a gym in New York that actually.
[00:30:40] Kathleen: I won't name but they have a bar like and they serve alcohol and they that's like their whole shtick is that like you can work out and then take shots afterwardsIt's so interesting, I actually was part of a gym in Toronto that had a bar also, and This was years ago, like 15 years ago. So, it's [00:31:00] weird.
[00:31:00] Kathleen: How is
[00:31:01] Kathleen: that
[00:31:01] Kathleen: healthy?
[00:31:02] Sonia: it's like a work hard, play
[00:31:03] Kathleen: Yeah, for
[00:31:04] Kathleen: sure,
[00:31:04] Hilary: I feel like that has very much subsided especially for like
[00:31:09] Hilary: Gen Z like never participated in that and I think Millennials like were, for lack of a better word, raised on that culture and have realized that, like, it just doesn't work.
[00:31:21] Kathleen: Mmhmm.
[00:31:23] Sonia: were raised on that culture. I don't,
[00:31:25] Kathleen: We're Gen
[00:31:25] Kathleen: X,
[00:31:25] Hilary: as a
[00:31:26] Hilary: millennial, I can attest that I feel like that was part of, you know, the 2011, 12, 13, 14, 15, like, vibe was like, I am. I'm a boss and I'm gonna like go out and then I'm gonna go to work and then I'm gonna go to my SoulCycle class and then just like never ending, like never a time to rest.
[00:31:50] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:31:51] Sonia: Yeah. Like I'm going to sleep on my office floor and then I'm going to go. Yeah.
[00:31:56] Hilary: Yeah,
[00:31:57] Kathleen: I'm curious, Hilary, now that we've talked a little [00:32:00] bit about beer, but what are some of your favorite, non alcoholic beverages, like maybe pre mixed or in wine. just give us a little, little sprinkling of what your
[00:32:12] Kathleen: favorites
[00:32:13] Kathleen: are.
[00:32:14] Hilary: Yeah, so I briefly mentioned, Free Spirits. They make, um, non alcoholic, um, gins and bourbons and a Milano and tequila and now they also make canned cocktails. So I think they're great. I always, my party trick, I don't know if you guys are Taylor Swift fans, so I apologize if you're
[00:32:35] Kathleen: I am very much a Taylor Swift fan.
[00:32:37] Hilary: oh great, you're gonna love this.
[00:32:40] Hilary: So I make this,cocktail that I call the French 89 in honor of Taylor, and it's like non alcoholic gin, it's non alcoholic sparkling wine, it's lemon juice, and it'sthe best. So if I'm going to a party and I have things available. That's what I will make if I'm bringing something. I typically bring I [00:33:00] don't know, the canned cocktails because it's like a little bit less time intensive and also like just carrying things in New York is trouble.
[00:33:08] Hilary: there's a site called betterroads. com. They all, they have like bundles that you can like search through and they have beers, they have wines, they havecanned cocktails, they have spirits. Um, I think they're great. And, Who else am I loving right now? Oh, Duomo is a brand. They're a non alcoholic elixir.
[00:33:26] Hilary: They're one of there's like this wave of like functional beverages and this is one that has 17 functional beverages. So they have B12, so you're gonna feel like really good. and they have three really great flavors too. So yeah, there's just, there's a lot out there. It's
[00:33:48] Sonia: Brown on, So he recommended that Aplos Ume Spritz. That is like the best thing I've ever had. I have it at my house so we can test it next week. But it is, that is like my [00:34:00] favorite, favorite pre made, like pre mixed
[00:34:03] Kathleen: Now you also like pre made mocktails that taste like leather boots, so am I to trust you on this one?
[00:34:11] Sonia: that one is so good. It's smoky. It's not leathery. It's smoky.
[00:34:16] Sonia: There's, there's something
[00:34:17] Sonia: different about that.
[00:34:19] Kathleen: Okay
[00:34:19] Sonia: my God.
[00:34:20] Hilary: I just met Derek
[00:34:21] Hilary: in person in New Orleans, so I, he was at
[00:34:25] Hilary: the cocktail, I was
[00:34:26] Hilary: there, I gave, I was on a panel, so I like spoke about non alcoholic beverages and hospitality and it was my first time meeting him in person because we've been like internet friends, uh, for a bit and yeah, it was so much fun.
[00:34:38] Sonia: Yeah. No, he has some really interesting takes on it because he was like, a bartender Before and after and so yeah, So I am super excited to talk about your books and your workbook So what motivated you to write the dry challenge and the going dry
[00:34:55] Sonia: workbook?
[00:34:56] Hilary: So in a weird way, I [00:35:00] hate saying this, but it's kind of true. So like, when you're doing Dry January, you're talking about doing Dry January. And it's not even something that I personally like, noticed, because A, I was explaining, especially the first time, I was explaining to people, oh, I'm doing this and that, and then continued on to it's obviously Dry January, and I feel great, or people were like, what are you doing tonight?
[00:35:20] Hilary: And I'd be like, well, I'm going to the bar, but I'm not drinking because it's Dry January. So the memes are kind of true, I try to be as like, not the cliche, but whatever. I, I'm proud of it. So I talk about it. Um, and I feel like the dry challenge was just like a compilation of like everything that I was telling people, like in terms of benefits, in terms of like random statistics that I would read, in terms of like tips and that sort of thing.
[00:35:49] Hilary: So it really like stemmed from that. It was almost like, here's everything that I learned and everything that I've researched and everything that could potentially help somebody who, is. It's [00:36:00] engaging in a dry January and, from somebody who, like, didn't plan to do this initially but, like, now has mastered it in, her own way.
[00:36:08] Hilary: one of the stats, this is so crazy, it came out of the UK, which obviously they have a younger drinking age than the U. S., but, this, like, supplement company did a survey and found that, um, the average person spends nearly two years of their life
[00:36:26] Kathleen: Oh
[00:36:26] Kathleen: my
[00:36:27] Kathleen: gosh,
[00:36:28] Hilary: Yeah.
[00:36:28] Sonia: I
[00:36:28] Sonia: definitely
[00:36:29] Sonia: already have done that
[00:36:30] Hilary: and I was like, that's crazy because in the span of two years of your life, think about how many things that you can do and like how many, you know, I was even thinking like my, I think I can grow my hair like six inches in two years.
[00:36:43] Hilary: Like that's insane.
[00:36:46] Kathleen: Mean you probably could still grow your hair that much
[00:36:49] Kathleen: if you're
[00:36:49] Kathleen: hungover
[00:36:51] Kathleen: But The point being yeah, right. Like the point being is like, how many things, if you think about that, how many things has someone accomplished [00:37:00] or can accomplish in two years? Like you can't accomplish that much
[00:37:03] Kathleen: when you're hung over.
[00:37:05] Hilary: Right. And.
[00:37:07] Hilary: Yeah, so, and that's an average. it's certainly more and certainly some people are less, but I thought that was shocking. Um, but yeah, that's where the premise of the dry challenge came from. And then, going dry is really more about the reader. So it's 70 plus prompts and exercises and activities where people can, track how they're feeling and, and write that down and come back to it.
[00:37:33] Hilary: And I think that's really important too, because I think whether you're doing a dry month or dry six months, you will remember like certain details, but I think the sum of what you gather is like, Oh, I felt better. Or maybe I like lost a few pounds or like, but I don't think that people always remember the significant details of like, I felt proud of myself.
[00:37:57] Hilary: Like when I walked away from the bar and [00:38:00] I did not spend, 100 like I usually do. And then the next day, whatever it is. And when you tally all those things together, I think it's really, and significant to, look back on that and be like, wow, what a difference in my, my days, in my weeks, in my months, in my year.
[00:38:15] Hilary: Like, it really
[00:38:16] Kathleen: Yeah, it really does. And as a psychotherapist, I love a good workbook. Let me tell you, love a good workbook. So how do you envision people integrating the workbook in their daily lives?
[00:38:29] Hilary: I think, in a few ways. for one,ideally, like, they would do maybe an, an activity, you know, an interactive, journaling every day. If
[00:38:39] Hilary: they don't get to it, that's okay too.
[00:38:42] Hilary: I also think that, if they want to pick, it's supposed to be chronological, but if they don't, it's fine. I think just having, something, if you don't have a partner who's, like, keeping you accountable, I always say, my number one tip is, like, to recruit a friend if you're doing a dry month or a dry period of time.
[00:38:58] Hilary: Um, and if, you don't have that [00:39:00] person, then, you know, here's kind of your judgment free guide
[00:39:05] Hilary: and, help in your hands
[00:39:09] Kathleen: So ideally they're doing it every day in chronological order, but no judgment if you don't and it's okay just have it as a tool to use.
[00:39:18] Kathleen: Yeah.
[00:39:20] Hilary: It's not like a bible. I also say if you're in recovery and you're not drinkingfor life, obviously the dry challenge and going dry is not necessarily like the guide for you because it will talk about if you drink again and stuff like that. Um, but. And it also, the point that I, what I'm really thinking about in my head right now is like a lot of the times when people say like, oh I'm going to, and we're talking about like social drinkers, when they say oh I'm gonna embark on a dry challenge, dry month, and they have a drink in the middle of their month and I always say it's okay, just start the next day and [00:40:00] like end the month strong.
[00:40:01] Hilary: Um, but obviously it's not the same advice that I would give somebody who's in recovery and I'm not, a medical doctor
[00:40:07] Kathleen: Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. And it's interesting because Sonia, gosh, I've heard her talk about this so much, but let's say someone were to drink in the middle of Dry January and Sonia likes to talk about What can we learn from that? What can we learn from that? Right. And so I think that still applies, like whether it's like sobriety you're aiming for, or just dry January or what can we learn from that
[00:40:32] Kathleen: experience?
[00:40:33] Hilary: Yeah. And the, cause the truth of the matter is, is like, alcohol's everywhere. It's literally like at sports events. every part of dating is like, Oh, look how romantic this is. It's all over pop culture. Like every, anything I watch on TV that's not on a kid's channel has like an alcohol commercial.
[00:40:53] Hilary: Um, it's everywhere. It's part of mourning. It's part of celebrating. It's part of all the above. It's so hard to [00:41:00] ignore those things, and also, like, if you do drink, it's not the end of the world. doing a dry month is not about being perfect, it's just about, seeing how going without alcohol can impact you, and, like, what your relationship is with alcohol.
[00:41:17] Sonia: So hillary, what advice would you give to someone who's starting with the dry challenge or the going
[00:41:24] Sonia: dry workbook?
[00:41:25] Hilary: well, starting with what I just said, like, being just, kind to yourself during the process, because it is hard to give up alcohol. Um, with it being everywhere and also, like, being something that bonds people, together. So I think it might change, like, how you socialize and things like that.
[00:41:42] Hilary: that's one. Second of all, I think it's important to do things with a friend. Of course, if you don't, then you have a guidebook for it, but if you can recruit somebody who is, going to cheer you on and you're going to do the same for them, I think that's important and it can be very motivating.
[00:41:57] Hilary: You can make a bet like I did, I found that to [00:42:00] be very motivating but it's not 100 percent necessary. trying non alcoholic beverages is a great way to, um, replace your foolproof lens. And,I really, really think it's important to take the reins on, making social plans for you and your friend group or your partner or, whatever it is that you enjoy doing that does not involve alcohol.
[00:42:23] Hilary: I would always say, like, bring that to your friends. do you like to shoot hoops? Like, ask your friend to go do that. Like, when was the last time you, went outside and, went to, I don't know, a basketball court to do that? do the things that you enjoy. You can go to the bars with your friends, which is something that I did, but if you have a hike, if there's like a hike available to you, do that, get out there and like still hang out with the same people, just switch your atmosphere,
[00:42:48] Kathleen: So like plan ahead. And yeah, yeah, I get that. So Hilary, can you tell us about your new, your new
[00:42:57] Kathleen: book?
[00:42:58] Hilary: I can tell [00:43:00] you that it is really about the reader, like there are, there's so much in there that I think people will have opportunities to reflect on like different parts of their journey. Okay. I know that's. It's not like giving that much, but I promise there's like a lot of good stuff in there. Lauren Bostic, she is a podcaster and New York Times bestseller and an entrepreneur.
[00:43:24] Hilary: She wrote the foreword, which is really exciting because she's not herself sober, but she went on a stint with her husband and they both gave up alcohol for a bit. so again, I think it's important to obviously see other people who have done this, who are successful and creative and social and.
[00:43:42] Hilary: they've had really positive experiences doing so, um, and yeah, I don't want to give too much away,
[00:43:49] Kathleen: It's a surprise!
[00:43:51] Hilary: if you go on Amazon. com, you can see like a few of the little clips and pieces of the book. It's very colorful.
[00:43:58] Hilary: It's very bright. [00:44:00] on Amazon. com. It's supposed to be like, uplifting. It's not, it's not like a sad journal where you're like, I didn't drink today and I don't know where my friends are. It's like, this is great! We're gonna feel good!
[00:44:14] Sonia: that's awesome, Hillary. Thank you so much for coming on the pod and we're gonna link to all of your resources so people can find you and find your events and we just really appreciate you coming
[00:44:28] Sonia: on.
[00:44:29] Hilary: Thank you guys for having me. This
[00:44:30] Kathleen: And thank you all for joining Sisters in Sobriety, and we will see you next week! [00:45:00]