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Guest: David Marvin, Teaching Pastor at City Bridge Church, Texas, and former leader of The Porch ministry for young adults.
Description:
In this inspiring episode of SermonCraft, Chase Gardner sits down with David Marvin to explore the art of preaching with authenticity and impact. David shares his journey from his first sermon in 2006 to becoming a teaching pastor and author, emphasizing the importance of finding one’s unique voice in preaching. He discusses the influence of prominent preachers like John Piper and Matt Chandler, and the significance of using personal experiences and societal context to connect deeply with the audience. David also delves into the practical aspects of sermon preparation, including the critical role of a sermon prep team and the iterative process of brainstorming, writing, and refining messages. The conversation highlights the challenges and rewards of preaching, offering valuable insights for both new and experienced communicators looking to enhance their craft.
Key Takeaways:
- The importance of finding and honing your unique preaching voice.
- Strategies for effective sermon preparation, including the use of a prep team.
- The role of personal and societal context in making sermons relatable and impactful.
- Insights into managing the challenges that come with public speaking and pastoral responsibilities.
Recommended For: Communicators, pastors, ministry leaders, and anyone interested in the art of preaching and teaching with authenticity and excellence.
Creators & Guests
Host
Guest
David Marvin
previously led The Porch, a Tuesday night ministry for thousands of young adults that meets across 14 locations in nine states. He received his master's degree in biblical studies from Dallas Theological Seminary and was on staff at Watermark Community Church for 13 years helping lead, teach, and build into the next generation of young adults. In addition to his role as a pastor, his first priority is serving as husband to his wife, Calli, who is a licensed counselor. They reside with their three children, Crew, Monroe, and Bear in Dallas, Texas.
What is SermonCraft?
Transform your preaching with SermonCraft! We interview some of today's best communicators to learn their secrets to captivating talks. Say goodbye to endless prep. Find your voice. Master your message.
Every episode is like a masterclass. Are you ready to revolutionize your sermons? Tune in to SermonCraft – where the art of preaching is made practical and tactical.
This is a podcast for communicators who teach regularly and want to become better and more confident in the art and craft of preaching.
We interview some of today's best communicators about their unique processes, habits, and secrets of turning a blank page into a captivating talk so that you can stop wasting valuable time in sermon prep, find your unique voice, and use the gift that God has given you with excellence and joy.
Join us as we unpack the concepts that helped us the most. Are you ready to change your approach to teaching?
Preaching is the bible poured through personality, and God has made each of us uniquely differently. And so it's a tragic thing if somebody tries to be Francis Chan or tries to be somebody else that it robs the church of getting the unique voice that you have.
Chase Gardner:Well, welcome to this episode of the Sermon Craft Podcast. This is a podcast for communicators who want to become better and more confident in the art and craft of preaching. And so we interview some of today's best communicators about their secrets of turning a blank page into a captivating talk, so that you can stop wasting valuable time in sermon prep, find your unique voice and use the gift that God has given you with excellence and joy. My name is Chase Gardner. I'm a professional speaker with 10 years of preaching under my belt.
Chase Gardner:This week, I'm so excited. We have David Marvin. I've never had the opportunity to meet David, but I've watched tons of his sermons. He led a really popular ministry for young adults called The Porch for years. And now he's an author and the teaching pastor for City Bridge Church in Texas.
Chase Gardner:And David has this amazing ability of saying hard things, true things, but uncomfortable things to our current culture in a way that makes people lean in and listen. Sermon craft podcast. Further ado, thank you for joining us on the Sermon Craft podcast.
David Marvin:Transform your preaching with Sermon Craft. This is a podcast for communicators who teach regularly and want to become better and more confident in the art and craft of preaching. And now your host, Chase Gardner.
Chase Gardner:Well, thanks for coming on. I we were just talking, and I was telling you how I've watched you from a distance at the porch for years years years. And, actually, I was a campus pastor over a staff, and we would kind of text back and forth on Tuesday nights when that was happening. So I've watched lots of your sermons. You have no idea who I am, but you have this amazing way.
Chase Gardner:You you figure out the what what the culture is really going through. You discern questions that our culture is asking, and you expose them in a really good way. And then you you answer them with the gospel in every single sermon. And you do it masterfully in a way where you can say hard stuff, but you have the trust and you have, just the authenticity where I think any single, audience member or congregation can can accept it and really learn from it. So I'm pumped to talk to you and kinda geek out about sermons.
Chase Gardner:So let me let me start with the first question. How when did you know that you were called to preach? Not necessarily be a pastor, but did you feel a calling to to preach God's word?
David Marvin:Yeah. It's a good question first, man, like I said, a second ago, I love the podcast idea, the name, just the craft preaching and teaching. I think it it's a need that doesn't really exist right now in the church. So it's fun to get to be on here and it's kind words. In terms of being called, I always joke that people will ask, when did you get the call to ministry?
David Marvin:And I'll always joke that they call and leave a voicemail because Yeah. Like, I've opened up one door after the next after the next and the philosophy that a lot of people have, having a direct call. I think God calls all of us to be on mission, to be a kingdom of priests and to be people who go and engage the world around us with the gospel. The first time that I taught was 2,006 at a camp called Kanika. Mhmm.
David Marvin:Right.
Chase Gardner:K. I've heard the name. Are they all over the US, or is there just one?
David Marvin:No. There's several, but they're all in Missouri. Okay. And somebody just said, hey, will you teach? And so I, of course, freaked out.
David Marvin:John said we can talk to people. He's prepared and people who are super kind and encouraging. Looking back, I'm sure it was a terrible message.
Chase Gardner:Was that the very first sermon you ever gave?
David Marvin:Very first sermon I ever gave.
Chase Gardner:Oh, wow.
David Marvin:So a few hundred people. Again, I'm I I don't even know what I talked about, but I remember did 3 points and had 3 illustrations and had scriptures that backed all of those up. And so then I I still do kind of something similar. And, but, yeah, that was the earliest that I remember teaching and then had people affirm it. And then they added me to the speakers kind of for that summer.
David Marvin:And and then, yeah, I never planned to go to ministry. I wanted to go to law school, graduate from Texas A and M University, had somebody from Watermark Church in Dallas reached out and said, Hey, Kanika called us and is gonna talk to you. If you'll come here, we'll pay you and disciple you for a year. So, I was going to do a program for called Teach for America, which is basically a resume builder and then go to law school decided, you know, I'll just go get my master's from seminary and then go to law school. That'll be my resume builder, and that was 14 years ago.
Chase Gardner:Oh, wow. That's crazy. Now what were some of your formative influences? Like even before you went to that camp, what sort of style did you grow up on? Is there any like pastor or preacher that really helped formed your preaching in the early years?
David Marvin:When you say early, you mean, like, grown up or do you mean more just kinda early in ministry or maybe both?
Chase Gardner:Like, when you preach that first sermon, who were you taking notes from?
David Marvin:I feel like that was in the the young restless reformed era. Remember that? Yeah. Like, everyone is obsessed with John Piper and church planning and Mark Driscoll and a bunch of those guys who were kinda in that era, early 2000. So I feel like Piper was so iconic and so influential.
David Marvin:Yeah. That I would probably say him. I mean, Matt Chandler
Chase Gardner:Yeah.
David Marvin:You know, a great gift to the church still, an incredibly gifted communicator.
Chase Gardner:He's saying remember the the very first Ipod I had. I had a John Piper and a Matt Chandler list. And I had, like, the the American dream is not a dream. It's a nightmare. I'll show you a tragedy.
Chase Gardner:Like, I I have that memorized in my head from Passion one day.
David Marvin:Oh my gosh. And collecting seashells and Yes. And Yes.
Chase Gardner:And they're 30 foot in trawler in Punta Gorda, Mexico. I remember that also.
David Marvin:Yes. So, yeah, I'd say those guys, you know, Andy Stanley, his book on communicating for a change, I believe that is. Again, all these names are hard to mention because they they elicit a response in different people. So it's nice listening is like, about Andy, I'm I'm just more saying you can learn from everyone. You can learn from stand up comedians.
David Marvin:You can learn from politicians. You can learn from people who are getting on a stage and communicating. And candidly, I think we should. I mean, if we have the greatest mission, greatest, most important message, and the fact that, you know, Dave Chappelle, which again, I'm not endorsing Dave Chappelle. There's people who are prolific in their craft of getting in front of a stage.
David Marvin:We should be students and people who are committed to excelling still more to do whatever we can by any means possible to reach as many as possible with the most important message ever, which is the gospel. So Yep. Yeah. I'd say those guys, JP, you mentioned John McCluta. He and I have worked really closely together.
David Marvin:And part of my early years at Watermark, I mean, this is gonna sound crazy to people and I hated it at the time, but part of my job was to write a message every single week, even if I wasn't teaching. It was, hey, I want you to go write a sermon and it's due by Friday at noon, even if you're not teaching next Tuesday at the porch. And in the time, but it flexed that muscle where I had to grow in the craft of writing and creating sermons and using the outline that you referenced. I don't know if we're recording that, but the outline that that I sent over to you.
Chase Gardner:Yeah. We'll go through that. Do you feel like you you you knew what your unique voice was early on? I mean, I I sounded like Matt Chandler and John Piper to the point where people were like, why are you yelling at me? So, like, my context was just completely different.
Chase Gardner:How long did it take until you found your voice?
David Marvin:I think this is the hardest thing for young preachers is finding your voice. Like, and I know you know that because you're a preacher and teacher
Chase Gardner:and you
David Marvin:have to go through it, but you have to have reps. You have to have good coaching, and you have to have a commitment to being you. I mean, I've said before that if God's gonna use me, he's gonna use me as being me, not me trying to pretend to be Chase.
Chase Gardner:Mhmm.
David Marvin:Preaching is the Bible poured through personality, and God has made each of us uniquely differently. And so it's a tragic thing. If somebody tries to be Francis Chan or tries to be somebody else that it robs the church of getting the unique voice that you have. So, I think it's a combination of you have to get reps. You have to have people that will give you good feedback and truth tellers that are like, Hey, you sound like Matt Chandler.
David Marvin:You sound like John Piper. And, and so I think it takes a while and I think you just have to get reps and you have to be committed to opening the scriptures and asking God, Hey, speak to me and speak through me and my story, my journey. And so I know that doesn't exactly answer that, but I'd say probably think at least 5 years of consistent teaching before I discovered my voice.
Chase Gardner:Yeah. I mean, I've given I've been basically preaching almost full time since 2013. But even la I think 2 years ago, we did a sermon series, and we do a run through on Thursday. We record on Thursday night for the satellite campuses. And I even got off stage and they're like, that wasn't you.
Chase Gardner:And I was like, I know. It wasn't me. Like, it didn't feel like it. So I still kinda lose my voice sometimes. What what role does you talked about feedback and you talked about, like, having to write sermons even though you weren't giving them.
Chase Gardner:What role does a team actually play in your sermon prep now? And is it different than when you were at the porch or what does that look like?
David Marvin:Yeah. So we actually have a precise process that I I could talk ad nauseam about. So I have a sermon prep team that I do the same that I did in the porch. Yep. I have a sermon prep team that we meet depending on when I was teaching Tuesdays, it looked different than now teaching Sundays.
David Marvin:Right. And so I'll do what we do for Sundays. Every Monday, 2 pm I get in a room and we'll brainstorm the next sermon that's coming up that Sunday So we're going to book the chapter and let's break it down Let's brainstorm If we're a sermon or a topical series and we're covering any number of things We just finished now we're in a series called generous.
Chase Gardner:What
David Marvin:does it look like to be generous with our lives and stewards what God entrust us with? So we would then go ahead. What's the right angle to take this message on stewardship or on investing in eternal rewards. And then we'll ideate and brainstorm. And that room, I think of it like oceans 11.
David Marvin:Like you want in oceans 11, if you remember the movie, every person that's on the team is on the team because they bring specific gifts into the room. So you got the guy who is jumping from the ceiling and you got the computer genius that sits in the car and then you have the guy who's, you know, suave and has good looks and can get his foot into the Brad Pitt. And in that room That's
Chase Gardner:me on the team.
David Marvin:Yeah. That's exactly right. In that room, you want a collection of people that bring different things to the table. So you want somebody that's gonna ruthlessly be committed to representing the feminine voice and the women in our body. You want somebody that's young.
David Marvin:You want a scholar. If you're deficient or maybe your strength is not being scholarly, you want a scholar in the room who's gonna have all the commentaries, or maybe a lot of times preachers are good at that, but they're not good at illustrations. So somebody who's created in the room to be a part of it. And so we'll meet for an hour, brainstorm is a lot less probably efficient than if you were to sit in on it. You would think a lot of people would imagine, oh, you're going through and you're gonna have the outline done.
David Marvin:No. It's more like whenever you go to start the lawnmower and you haven't mowed the grass in a while, you gotta pull it a few times. Yeah. And just try and pull it, pull it, pull it, and then eventually it gets that's how I think of sermon prep is I'm just trying to start the lawnmower to get my heart around whatever subject that we're covering. So there's debate.
David Marvin:There's, hey, is that really what Paul means? I mean, what are the things that people actually interface as it relates to this truth and let's really flesh those out. So we'll do that for an hour. I'll take it and I put it in the crock pot. 2 days later, I block all of Wednesdays.
David Marvin:So Monday, I've got an hour. Wednesday, I pick it back up after it's been in the crock pot of just ideating and I will walk.
Chase Gardner:Have you found that that because I I just came on I firmly believe this after in, like, the past 2 years, where I will do a bunch of study, and I will do a bunch of research, and I'll write down some ideas, and I will let it cook. And I will do it months in advance. I'm already working on sermons in January February. And I find if I do that, if I actually let it cook, when I go to a blank page, there's an outline already there. It's so much easier.
Chase Gardner:Something happens in, like, the subconscious.
David Marvin:1000%.
Chase Gardner:Yeah. Yes. So weird.
David Marvin:I'm not as disciplined as it's you in that. Like, I can't I can't plan sermons weeks ahead. I know different people are able to do that. I can How many times ideas, illustrations.
Chase Gardner:How many times are you preaching per year?
David Marvin:Last year, I think it was, like, 48.
Chase Gardner:Yeah. That's why you And
David Marvin:that was a comment. Yeah.
Chase Gardner:I'm at, like, 25. So yeah. Yeah. That makes
David Marvin:sense. Yes.
Chase Gardner:So then so then Wednesday is your sitting down looking at a blank page and typing it up?
David Marvin:Yes. Wednesday from 8 to 5, I'm pretty committed to blocking. I try to not have any other meetings on that. And I'll just go. And for me, it takes a while.
David Marvin:I gotta get like a running start. If I have 2 hours here and then 2 hours there, I just can't write a sermon. I've gotta have extended runway. And so I'll write, and then I'll do a run through Thursday at 1:30. And where I'll give the message just like it's a Sunday to a team.
David Marvin:Yep. Yep. In an empty auditorium. And then we do our the guy co written apart.
Chase Gardner:Yeah. We do ours Thursday at 2. And it's funny that you mentioned the team because we have a very there's 3 guys that we bring in there. Sometimes other pastors and stuff, but we know what they're gonna say before they even say it. Like, I'll be giving the sermon.
Chase Gardner:I'm like, and so we actually have taglines. Like, I'm real big on transitions and outlines, and there's a guy named Clay that wants to drip the point all throughout. And one guy, I'm just like peaks and valleys. I know. I gotta get more peaks.
Chase Gardner:I gotta get more valleys. And then Aaron's like the genius. He's gonna sum up my whole sermon in, like, a a very pithy saying. So so you go through the the whole sermon, lights on, on the stage, just like you're giving it on Sunday. Yes.
Chase Gardner:That's awesome. We do that.
David Marvin:That's awesome that y'all do that. Yeah. I don't know how many people that do that.
Chase Gardner:We used to you'd be surprised, but I thought that I was the only one and then a lot of people do it apparently, but we used to do Saturday night services. So we have 5 multisites. So I would do the 1st Saturday night service. We record. We don't go live to our multisites.
Chase Gardner:So I'd bring some guys in the room in between services, which seems like not a lot of time, but I actually got pretty good at making those. I do everything they say, like, pretty much everything they say, and it's good to be able to do that on the fly. But now we do it once COVID hit, and we record on Thursday. So I can't at this point, even when we did a church plant, we would do a volunteer service, and we would do one worship song, and it was just so I could do the the sermon. So all of our volunteers would hear it, and then I'd go back and change it.
Chase Gardner:But I can't imagine giving a sermon for the first time in front of the congregation. That would freak me
David Marvin:out. Totally. Yeah. I totally agree. Now, yeah, once once you start doing it, I mean, it's painful.
David Marvin:It's like a kick to the groin every time, you know, because jokes are not funny to a room of 4 people. Things are not engaging, but it's
Chase Gardner:The facility is cleaning the stage behind you on, like, stage right?
David Marvin:Yes. So confused. The the facilities person is always confused on what are they doing right now. But, but you're right. 30.
David Marvin:It's so valuable.
Chase Gardner:So then after you get that feedback, do you go back and retype it? How do you do you just keep it in the back of your head until Sunday morning, or what does that look like?
David Marvin:Yeah. So I used to do it on Tuesdays at 3 to teach the porch that night. So and I honestly liked that a lot better because I am the type of person who does well with, like, my back is against the wall. I can procrastinate. So now I've got 3 days and I will then I'll take it.
David Marvin:I'll take the feedback. Similar to you, I know what different people are gonna say, kind of I had know their bias. And I think that's important as you learn to filter the bias, different people. But I'll take it and then I'll go make changes and try to be done by the end of the day and just put it back in the Crock Pot. But I think like any teacher, you're still thinking and an illustration, my favorite illustration that I had for this past Sunday came as I was driving in
Chase Gardner:to
David Marvin:the office. And so God still will bring different things to mind. And, yeah.
Chase Gardner:That's crazy.
David Marvin:What do you what do you do?
Chase Gardner:I don't well, I can show you my manuscripts. My manuscripts are crazy. No one has man I do manuscript and I but I rarely look at it. Uh-huh. So I actually just write in the margin.
Chase Gardner:Hey, Clay said this, and I will it makes it more natural for me. I hate I print my sermon on Monday because I have to give it to the the tech team for the slides, and other pastors actually use my sermon. So there's one here. There's people in France, all that sort of stuff. So it has to be done, and it's a rough draft.
Chase Gardner:And then it's a it's a living document. I can actually bring it in the shot.
David Marvin:So I
Chase Gardner:have a cut day where I actually literally draw it out, but there's like little stuff that people said and like everything. It's just a mess. No one, but I I live with this document. I I used to run it probably 5 or 6 times. Now I just run it 2 or 3 times, but I know, hey.
Chase Gardner:This is the page with the big large blocked out rectangle. I know what's on this page. I know where the transitions and stuff are. So when my team gives me feedback, I just write it in the margin instead of retyping it, and it just makes it more natural. But, yeah, we're not here for me, David.
Chase Gardner:We're here for you. Right. So when so when you sit down on Wednesday to type a blank page, you do have a sermon prep template, and we can put that in the shot. So is this, you something that you came up with, you and and and Jonathan, or how did this come about? And can you kinda walk me through it?
David Marvin:So it's an adapted version of what DTS Dallas Seminary provides. Okay. And let me see which one that happened. So basically, you start with an image, subject, need. I mean, I'm happy to walk through each of those, but generally, I'll start with some sort of image that captures where we're gonna go, whether that's a story or this past weekend, I was talking about wedding registry or during engagement.
David Marvin:How my favorite part
Chase Gardner:Now do you come up with it's what a lot of people would know as an introduction or you kinda do the introduction and the tension with the image and the need. Is that something you come up with first or is it something you come up with after the body of the message is done or it just depends week to week? Think
David Marvin:it happens after. I mean, typically, I'll go study the passage, try to break down the passage, and then you from there can go, hey, what's the need? Or what's the what's its state if we don't understand this passage? And then you flesh out the need, and then I'll try to get to an illustration that teases that tension or allows me to segue into that tension.
Chase Gardner:That's awesome. And then so there's the the subject. Tell them what you're gonna talk be talking about. So it's kind of the road map and the preview. Then you set up the text and then you get into it.
Chase Gardner:And this was surprising to me and something I'm gonna try. But it's not just 0.1 explained once. Like, there's there's 0.1, there's an explanation with supporting ideas, scriptures, some more ideas. Then you explain more about 0.1. Then you explain more about 0.1 and then add an illustration.
Chase Gardner:And I didn't notice you did this until I read this, And I thought back to all your sermons. I'm like, he actually does this. This is crazy. This is why these talks are so good. So you you labor the point, but you do it using different means with illustrations.
Chase Gardner:Why why do you think where did this idea come about? From not just saying point 1 illustrating it once, but really massaging it and spending time in it.
David Marvin:So I think the most important thing in any preaching and any message or that that in my opinion, most preachers have to work the hardest at is is intersections. So I think of each point includes an illustration and intersections, intersections and illustrations. Intersections is how you connect to the lives of everyone in the room. Beau Hyboulds had a saying that when you preach in prep preparing, you should think of an empty boardroom and then fill that boardroom with the different stereotypes of people that are represented in your audience. So fill that empty you see the boardroom, there's all these chairs.
David Marvin:In one chair, there's the empty nester couple that is wondering what place they have in the church. And the next chair is a single mom who's got 3 kids. She's just trying to make it. Her story involves painful divorce and the next chair is a college student and the next chair is a young married couple. And then you wanna do whatever you can to try to think through the different stages they're in and how god's word connects to them.
Chase Gardner:Have you found that hard? Because when you're at the porch, it's a pretty homogeneous I mean, not really. I mean, you have Christians and non Christians. But now at a multi generational congregation and you can't really talk to everyone. That's one that's one of the hardest things is you have to choose not to talk to you.
Chase Gardner:Have you found that kind of a growing pain in the past few months?
David Marvin:It's definitely different than the rifle shot of the 25 year old, you know, believer or nonbeliever. But honestly, I I really enjoy it. I've enjoyed it more because you're getting to speak to such a broader audience in that sense. And that's really what all the explanation stuff is, is I'm trying to connect how, whatever we're covering in this scripture connects to those various people, those intersections that I like, and then an illustration to help hopefully drive it
Chase Gardner:home. That's awesome. And do you do you follow so then you have 0.2, which is the same as the 0.1 when you do the explanations, the intersections, and illustrations. And then the summary. And one thing that you do do, which I love, is there's always a finishing image.
Chase Gardner:There just always is, and it's beautiful. I remember I think this was the finishing image when you talked about sex, and you talked about it blinds and it binds. And you can do this in Texas, but you had a gun on stage. I don't know if I could do this in North Carolina. Probably.
Chase Gardner:You know, we're still in the south, But it really was powerful. And I don't I think you might have did you open with that or did you close with that?
David Marvin:I think I did both. Yeah. Yeah. But if I can do it.
Chase Gardner:Yeah. And that's very comedienne esque. Right? Comedians open it and then they tie kinda tie it up at the end.
David Marvin:It's exact.
Chase Gardner:But the finishing image is so powerful. A lot of people stall out, or you always wanna bring it back to the gospel, but I think some guys just do without thinking about it, and you can just you can just tell, alright. They're gonna get to the sinner's prayer somehow or they're gonna get to, you know, Jesus is the greater Abraham here. And it doesn't I mean, it's always good. I mean, always talk about Jesus and lift up the gospel.
Chase Gardner:But the thought that you guys put into this closing, man, it just makes messages. Stick with me. I know. Are you rigid on this? Do you ever have 2 point messages?
Chase Gardner:Do you ever have 4 point messages? Does the text kinda determine
David Marvin:that? Yeah. No. I'm not I'd say I have a bias toward that, but there's times where I have a 2 point or you have a 5 point or I've had a 10, you know, it just kind of depends on the text. The other thing that I'll try to include is just personally something how how this impacts me or how I'm wrestling with this.
David Marvin:It's always better if you're transparent and you're saying, here's where I don't honestly believe this is true, or my heart is still battling with this. And so I'll try to include that. And then I don't know if you're this way, I saw your outline Something that I learned from from Matt and from Ben when we had them at the porch, specifically Ben Sewer is he he will color code. And I thought this is helpful. Yes.
David Marvin:If it's if it's an illustration, I want it in green.
Chase Gardner:Yeah.
David Marvin:And it's been a while since I see green on my page. I know I need to work that in or he then will color code comedy that he'll try to work in, hey. It's been a while since I've had something comedic.
Chase Gardner:Yeah. Actually, the the 2 pastors I've had on this week, they all do color coding. And I think part of it is because that's the outline they inherited from the person that they learned from. But also, it's I call it marking the text. However you do it, it's super important.
Chase Gardner:The guy actually before me, every other word would be a different color. And it's weird because he would full manuscript. You would never guess it in a 1000000 years, but it was to help draw his eye to where he's been. So if you look at my manuscript, again, it's not about me, but I'll do little stuff like that and draw through the page and circle words. A lot of it doesn't make any sense at all, but I know what this page looks like.
Chase Gardner:So I I do full manuscript, but I walk away from the notes often. So it's just a way for me to not get lost. Like, some guys, I mean, they'll just write paragraphs and paragraphs. I'm like, I could never follow that. I I just need to look at the page and not get lost and, like, this one only has, like, 3 sentences on it, you know, because I had to cut so much.
Chase Gardner:Do you have a process for cutting?
David Marvin:That feedback time. I mean, typically, they're pretty good at probably like y'all, I will give more. I'll give a 120% of the message knowing, hey, we're gonna come in here and we're gonna cut different stuff. Mhmm. And, so they'll help think through and help cut.
David Marvin:And so that feedback time is invaluable.
Chase Gardner:Yeah. Do you
David Marvin:do you follow an outline?
Chase Gardner:This is the outline, but yeah. You can kinda see it. I mean, that yeah. It's just roman numerals and stuff. So there is an outline, but, no, I don't have a I'm kinda artsy fartsy.
Chase Gardner:I'm so weird. So I just approach, I don't have a way. I've tried to lock into ways, but it just depends on how the text is, how it's hitting me. Sometimes I won't have an introduction at all. I'd I wanna shock people at first.
Chase Gardner:So whatever that is, I want them to lean in. So I could just say, open your bibles. Let's read Luke 1. That's gonna shock our congregation because we don't do that a lot of weeks. Sometimes it's a story.
Chase Gardner:Sometimes it's I'm I'm I'm blessed because I'm I'm speaking 25 weeks a year, you know, when I'm not guest speaking other places. So I have time to kinda massage it and but when I was church planning, I did 51 weeks a year. Yeah. I kinda had a okay. This is what I gotta do because I just gotta start.
Chase Gardner:You know? But yeah. So once you go through that, here's the outline, and this is what you take up on stage, or do you have a iPad? Or do you use paper?
David Marvin:I use an iPad. And did did I send over, like, an actual outline? You did. Yeah. From
Chase Gardner:Palm Sunday, I think.
David Marvin:Yes. So I'll take that on an iPad up there and that but I used to do paper. It doesn't really matter. It's kind of the same thing. And then same as you, I have all of it there, but I often won't look at it.
David Marvin:It's just more case you're losing your place, writing out transition statements. I think you alluded to this a second ago. It's funny you said that I'll write those out because you can finish a point and you're like, well, where am I going next? And it just early on himself to go So we see that now we see what he references next.
Chase Gardner:I circled the man. That's the first thing I noticed because I think that's what takes a sermon from like an a to an a plus. It's you effortless effortlessly move from from one section to the next very conversationally. It's not every guy's style. You know, some people are like, hey.
Chase Gardner:I'm gonna do 3 points. This is what we're gonna do. That was point 1. Here's point 2. But that's still a transition.
Chase Gardner:That was point 1. Let's move on to point 2. And the transitions, I think, just help people realize this is not a lecture. This is actually a conversation. This is this is heart to heart communication, so I love that.
Chase Gardner:If you're listening and you don't do transitions, I mean, I tell all the guys on the team, you need to write your transitions out, even if it's just a sentence like this, but,
David Marvin:and that's wild. I'd say this thing a lot.
Chase Gardner:Yeah. Well, once you're up there, I mean, a lot of this, I think is from me. I mean, your first sermon was rather good because they called you back. My first few sermons were so bad. They were horrible.
Chase Gardner:And I wanted to teach, but I didn't know how. And it's the worst thing in the world to stand on stage. And and it's not just a comedy set. Like, you are speaking on behalf of God. Like, you're you're proclaiming these glorious truths, and the worst thing in the world is to not have a good sermon that connects.
Chase Gardner:And so I think I've just noted down, hey. When you're up there and you don't know when the next section is, that feels bad and the audience doesn't like it. So let's they're kinda like guardrails or or life vests that help you stay afloat. You know? So then you get up and you preach this.
Chase Gardner:Before we get into the rapid fire, do you do anything special on Sunday mornings? How do you feel Sunday afternoons and Monday?
David Marvin:Special Sunday mornings. I'll get up. I'll get here at 7. Our service is at 9 and 11, and we'll spend time just with the outline and honestly just praying and trying to pray, God, If there's anything that needs to be included or doesn't need to be included or anything that somebody here this morning needs to hear that I don't have, Would you make that clear and just really try to pray through the audience? I found that, like, the more that I am focused, not on myself, but on people who are walking in, the people who this may be the first time they've ever been to church and it could be the last, you know, they're at the end of the rope and they're giving God one last chance or the person's their marriage is just collapsing.
David Marvin:And so just I'll try to spend time praying through praying over our people and then with the outline. And so then we'll do a, call it a cue to cue, which is kind of a walk through around hate, the flow, and then we'll spend time in the green room on our knees, Brian, just forgot to work, move, and then, and then we'll go out. So and then afterwards, I I feel like I'm pretty wiped.
Chase Gardner:Yeah.
David Marvin:At 1 o'clock, you end up getting done. You've had all the conversations. I'm I'm a mixture of white and energized. Right. Because you're like, man, that was awesome.
David Marvin:Thank you, god. And also, I need, like, an hour of just just kind of and then I'll pop back in. So honestly, I'll I'll typically, like, go exercise to do something Sunday afternoon, and then I'm back in kids and family just to kind of I don't even know what the right word is, but just kind of get back into that headspace.
Chase Gardner:Yeah. No. It's definitely a shift. Well, let me ask you just a few quick fire questions before we wrap up and ask for any advice that you might have. Have you ever bombed during a sermon?
Chase Gardner:Your first one was pretty good, but have there ever been any cases on, like, the porch? Because I have a few that I I'm just kidding. I have none that you've been in.
David Marvin:No. But I did have a sermon where I was supposed to teach. Well, I'm sure I bombed. So say, depends on who you ask. But I would say it was even worse than bombing.
David Marvin:I did a message I run through and it was so bad. Everyone was like, this is probably 2010. Yeah. 2012, somewhere around there. It was early on.
David Marvin:And it was so bad that I was like, man, this is complete rewrite. Again, this is Tuesday, like 5. I got 2 hours. Yeah. And I'm sitting there and I'm trying to write it with JP.
David Marvin:And I was like, dude, I don't think I could and he he he it was this incredible leadership. He was like, hey, do you want me to teach tonight? Do you want me to take it back? And I was like, I think you should. And, and he got up and I don't even know what he talked about, but it was so bad.
David Marvin:It it it was like a marker of lack of preparation on my point. That was pretty pivotal of like, oh, hey, you gotta put the work in. Can't just rely on get big. Can't just rely on Right. God will give it to me.
David Marvin:Gotta put the word in. So it was worse than Bauma. I didn't even go up and teach because
Chase Gardner:Dude, I've had nightmares about that. That's crazy. There has been some there was a few weeks where when we do Thursday nights, I only have an hour or 2, and I've literally taken my manuscript and put it the bottom half on the top half and said, no. No. No.
Chase Gardner:You have to start here. So there's been crazy changes, but what's the most distracting thing to ever happen in the congregation while you're preaching?
David Marvin:I mean, we've had this is actually, I think, good advice for people, especially if they're, we've had different medical, like somebody has a seizure or somebody has Tourette's or somebody yells out during a lot of the racial tensions. Yeah. 2020, somebody yelled out an f bomb about from, like, the up in the balcony area. That was upset. Mhmm.
David Marvin:And it was just random. But I think I think one thing that is good for younger communicators or people who are learning to communicate to think through is you almost have to walk through those situations in advance.
Chase Gardner:You got
David Marvin:a role play in your mind. Here's if somebody starts having a seizure, this is what I do. I just say, Hey guys, we've got a medical problem right here in the 3rd row, and we've got a medical team that's gonna address it And so let me just pray real quick Everything's gonna be okay You just you're in charge of the room and you've gotta own it. Or if somebody's yelling out expletives, you go, hey, Sony clearly is charged about that, and we're gonna have our team care, and we wanna care for this person. So thank you for sharing that.
David Marvin:We'd love to talk more about the message, but just walking through so that you're not doing it in the moment and you're prepared. You're kind of like, you've role played what to do because that happens. It happens everywhere. Yeah.
Chase Gardner:Yeah. It does happen. Have you ever dealt with anxiety or depression? It's actually pretty common in teachers or public communicators.
David Marvin:So my 6 weeks, not 6 weeks, recently discovered that we're having a 4th baby and they have conclude that she is trisomy 13. So we're gonna give birth to a daughter apart from a miracle of God in January that will shortly after she's born likely go to be with Jesus. And so that's kind of where we're at as a family and praying for a miracle And I shared that actually with the congregation 3 weeks ago just because it's kind of like it feels inauthentic to go, Hey, we're gonna cover Jonah and Jonah calling out to God from the pit and his desperation. And let me just share where we're calling out to God in our desperation. But the week after I found that out, I was teaching and it was so fresh and we just weren't worried.
David Marvin:My wife in particular, her thing, when you were journeying through something like that is like by nature of my job, it's so public. You've gotta bring, you know, you either have to step away and go, hey, guys. I'm gonna take a sabbatical or you just bring everybody in and go, hey. We're praying. Cried more tears than than we knew we even had.
David Marvin:But we weren't ready or she wasn't ready yet because it was so fresh for me to share. And it felt like way crippling anxiety. I would say I had a panic attack on stage. Yep. Like a people didn't even know it.
David Marvin:Or people may not have even realized it, but it was like shaking and I just had to pray. I mean, it was the most bizarre. I've never experienced anything like it before. Yeah. And, and so that was a very recent example of just clinging to God in the midst of that anxiety And I'd say that we're still on the stage of asking God, may we spare our daughter So I wouldn't say wrestle to back away from this current season that we're in depression in general but certainly anxiety waves throughout just life have been part of our story.
David Marvin:And I wrote a book on anxiety as a part of that, because my wife is super passionate about that. Yeah. But, yeah, that's a surreal thing to have to and I didn't know that's actually I don't know that I'd say it's comp, but that's a thing. I remember a friend of mine who leads large church in town telling me he had a panic attack on stage when he was teaching. Yeah.
David Marvin:Front 10,000 people. And I was like, man, I don't wow. I don't know what you're talking about. I can't imagine that.
Chase Gardner:Yeah. I wanna I wanna have you on for another episode because I had 2 panic attacks on stage last year. I actually just dealt with. And I preached on anxiety 2 years ago and was like, what's the big deal? Like, you can just get over it.
Chase Gardner:Like, I don't know. Don't drink coffee. You know? And then I had crippling anxiety for about 9 or 10 months. We're on the other side of it now about 4 months.
David Marvin:I would love to hear more about that.
Chase Gardner:Sorry. Yeah. Sorry to hear about what you and your wife are going through. It is hard as a pastor. How have you rectified that?
Chase Gardner:Because it's not like as teaching pastors, you can get it's hard to when I first got the job, it was only 3 years ago, and it was weird to see people on target or at restaurants. Like, look at me. How do I know you? Oh, we go to your church. You're shorter off stage.
Chase Gardner:That's what I always get. But there's just you you do live a public life, and there's an aspect of that that, I mean, praise the lord. Like, I need to be above reproach. There's no secrets in my life. You know, that that it actually has a sanctifying effect.
Chase Gardner:But when you are going through suffering, it's hard. You know? It's hard. Was it is it different in your current position than it was when you had people all over the country? And you probably still do, but just a wider audience, you know, is it different being plugged into a local church?
David Marvin:It's definitely diff but I would say it's not probably as public or especially because Dallas, there's just so many young and olds can't go. You just know if I go to that area of town, kind encouraging way. Yeah. You're just gonna get bombarded people. And that's awesome.
David Marvin:It sounds like who would complain about that? So, but if you stay in the suburbs and you're like at a park with kids, not gonna be a ton of young adults that are coming to hang and I wanna hear. But yeah, I think it is interesting for pastors that you walk through grief publicly, you walk through life publicly, and there is a real sanctifying. So that's a good way of putting it. And and then it also brings challenges that I think are hard probably for spouses too, in elect.
David Marvin:It's wasn't the profession that they chose, but my wife is going to have to publicly walk through that as well. She went to the doctor 2 days ago for our 1 and a half year old and receptionist by the desk was like, oh, I know who you are. And I've been praying for Mottie. Who's our daughter. And she probably as an introvert struggled more with that than I do as an extrovert.
David Marvin:It's less hard, but to your point, it's real.
Chase Gardner:Well, to close, what advice would you give to young preachers or even pastors that have been preaching for years years and maybe have lost the spark? What would you recommend for them? Just words of wisdom.
David Marvin:And I think you gotta have a team around you. You gotta know your gauges personally. I like, I'm kind of addressing more or less preaching bleeds into preaching that you gotta know, are you running on empty? Are you doing too much? Are you running on fumes?
David Marvin:Just gotta widen that circle and make sure that you monitor your gauges because you teach, like, I've referenced teaching 48 times last year. The reason I know that is it was just too much. Yeah. For me, at least, it was too much. My sweet spot is 30 to 35.
David Marvin:And if it's 28, man, that's awesome. And so I think just knowing your gauges, knowing where you are, bring other people into it And then as it relates to sermon craft build a team that you wanna make sure that have a strong team around you, and you may have to go recruit from the body. Like that's something I'm currently doing here is I don't know on my staff that I have that the ocean's 11. So I've gotta ask volunteers that may have a job that's somewhat flexible to come and be a part of that. And and then, man, point people to Jesus, take your energy from God's word and bring your energy to God's word, not your puppy story or not something else, but God's word that's alive and active.
David Marvin:Be that thing that brings to light the message and then point back and put people's face and have look at, think about how profound that verse is and what he's actually saying there. So I think bring your energy to the text and how you prepare and take your energy from the text and how you communicate.
Chase Gardner:It's awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us, and we'll have to have you back on at some point. Talk about some more stuff.
David Marvin:Such a fun and really respect what you guys are doing. So thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to Sermon Craft with Chase Gardner, available to download wherever you get your podcasts.