Living Centered Podcast

Have you ever wondered if therapy could be right for you and your partner? When is the right time? Should we do individual or couples work? Why do we find ourselves in the same cycles over and over?   
 
Today, we're bringing in an expert to help us get to the bottom of your questions!  Mickenzie and Lindsey sit down with Onsite Clinician and EFT Trained Couple's Therapist, Matt Wade. Taking a deep dive into how our attachment can impact our partnership, Matt shares his personal story and how it informed a major career pivot to work with couples. Together, we'll explore how couples' work can repair and strengthen your relationship and help you overcome the patterns of conflict and hurt that keep you stuck in your partnership!  

In this Episode:  
5:19 – Who is Matt Wade?  
8:17 – How the pain in Matt’s story and marriage led him to Onsite  
17:35 – How Matt pays forward the healing in his marriage for other couples  
18:58 – What is Emotionally Focused Therapy?  
20:46 – When to do couple’s therapy and when to do individual therapy  
26:12 – How attachment plays out in couples  
31:07 – What are the steps to creating a solid foundation in your relationships?  
35:53 - The role of disclosure in couples’ work  
39:38 – How to assess if it’s time to leave a relationship  
43:15 – Matt's practice for staying centered in his partnership  


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Creators & Guests

Host
Hannah Warren
Creative Marketing Director at Onsite
Host
Lindsey Nobles
Vice President of Marketing at Onsite
Host
Mickenzie Vought
Editorial and Community Director at Onsite
Editor
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What is Living Centered Podcast?

So many of us go through life feeling out of touch with ourselves, others, and the world around us. We feel disconnected, overwhelmed, distracted, and uncertain of how to find the clarity, purpose, and direction we so deeply, so authentically, desire. The Living Centered Podcast in an invitation to another way of living.

Every episode, we sit down with mental health experts, artists, and friends for a practical and honest conversation about how to pursue a more centered life—rediscovering, reclaiming, and rooting in who we truly are.

Matt Wade:

I think people often find, oh, this is not about that thing. Because it's never about the thing. It's not about the toothpaste not being rolled up from the bottle. Right? It's not about the dishes not being put properly in the dish washer. It's generally some attachment wounding that that that is coming alive.

Mickenzie Vought:

Welcome to the Living Centered Podcast, a show from the humans at Onsite. If you're new to this space and just beginning this journey, we hope these episodes are an encouragement, a resource, and an introduction to a new way of being. If you're well into your journey and perhaps even made a pit stop at Onsite's Living Centered Program or one of our other experiences, we hope these episodes are a nudge back toward the depth, connection, and authenticity you found. In this series, we sat down with some of our favorite experts and emotional health sojourners to explore the relationships that make up our lives. From our friendships to our families or families of choice to our relationship with ourselves.

Mickenzie Vought:

Part practical resource and part honest storytelling that will have you silently nodding me too. This podcast was curated with you in mind. Let's dive in. Hey friends. Welcome to another episode of the Living Centered podcast.

Mickenzie Vought:

Today, Lindsay and I get to introduce you to our friend, therapist, and Onsite alum, Matt Wade. And this conversation was a really beautiful gift. I really enjoyed getting to know him more. I think every interaction I've ever had with him, he just shows up with so much authenticity and so genuine, and he just has an inviting presence. And so it totally makes sense why he is an incredible couples therapist, and we got to talk about all the things couples.

Mickenzie Vought:

And we talked about the way that couples therapy can enter into people's journeys and kinda help them through change and crisis and navigating and building a new relationship. But, also, we talked a lot about the intentional small actions we can take within our partnerships that will bleed out into creating health in our relationships and then our other relationships.

Lindsey Nobles:

Yeah. Matt did something in this conversation that we really value at Onsite. As a therapist, he also spoke about his own journey and story and how his accomplorship has really been a springboard for learning lessons, some of them the hard way, and being able to bring those lessons to other people. And so I really appreciate his vulnerability and his passion for couples, and it's been hard earned. So I think you'll love this conversation with Matt.

Mickenzie Vought:

Matt, thanks for joining us.

Matt Wade:

Thank you.

Mickenzie Vought:

I'm really excited about this conversation. And I think to kind of kick it off, I would love for you in Onsite fashion to introduce yourself, not by what you do, but who you are. So who are you, Matt?

Matt Wade:

Yeah. You know, I get to be a husband. I get to be a dad, 2 amazing kids, and, I think that that really is my my priority mainly, right, is just showing up for them the best that I can Yeah. And then getting to do what I do every day, which is the mental health world. Right?

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah. And when you I think you have such a unique story of how you got into the mental health world. So would you be willing to share that story with us?

Matt Wade:

Oh, of course. Yeah. So I was a pastor for around 23 years. And while my wife and I were on staff at a pretty, pretty large church, Yeah. Our marriage imploded while we were there.

Matt Wade:

And, we happened to see an interview with Donald Miller, and he was debuting his book on scary clothes. And he mentioned this place called Onsite. Well, I thought Onsite was primarily for recovery from drug and alcohol addiction. I didn't know that it was a just a mental health facility as well. Yeah.

Matt Wade:

And so come to find out, at that time, someone who worked at Onsite, I was their campus pastor. And so I text this person in service, and I said, I have to go. And she said, I've got you covered, and she gave me the dates. By the way, today is the anniversary of when I came out of Onsite.

Lindsey Nobles:

Wow. How many years ago?

Matt Wade:

Yeah. That would be this would be 9 years ago now.

Mickenzie Vought:

Wow. That's incredible.

Matt Wade:

So I just realized I realized today we're recording. Just realized it's the anniversary. It's pretty wild. And so she said, I've got you covered. Let's go.

Matt Wade:

And 2 weeks later, I found myself in a world that, I don't know, I mean, it it shook me and, obviously, transformed my life to the point that I eventually changed my career, if you call it a career, a vocation, a calling, whatever, to just do this for the rest of my life because I saw how powerful it was. And at that moment, you know, our our marriage had hope. Before that, it did not.

Lindsey Nobles:

I love that. You talked, Matt, about sort of, you know, making contact with someone, asking for help when you're in this moment of crisis. And especially as a leader, a pastor, I think especially that role carries this weight of being sort of a symbolic leader that, you know, like everything's supposed to be perfect. I think a lot of times people in the mental health profession suffer with that as well of, like, I'm supposed to have it all together. But behind the scenes, a lot of times, things are not altogether.

Lindsey Nobles:

So what was that like for you, and what do you wish that you knew now sort of in the time before you got to crisis?

Matt Wade:

Oh, that's that's a couple of big questions there. First one is, helpers don't get help, and they should. Right? The second thing is, I always kind of liken it to whenever I find myself drifting, generally, that's the moment that I have to reach out for help right there. The issue is is that we wait until the drift has gone too far.

Matt Wade:

Right? And that could be from marriage. That could be from be too much alcohol use. That could be, from a relationship that's getting whatever that may be. Right?

Lindsey Nobles:

Yeah.

Matt Wade:

I I found that something was going on, and this happens really big time in the ministry, is that secrecy is a key to a lack of health.

Lindsey Nobles:

Mhmm. Yeah.

Matt Wade:

When I start holding things tight to the vest, when I start holding things tight and going, I can't let anybody know what I'm thinking, more or less what I'm doing. Mhmm. Right? I can't let someone see this side of me because my vocation, my income, my reputation, my integrity is tied to this. And so the moment I let go of that, what's gonna happen?

Matt Wade:

Right? We all understand the fear of the unknown. I get that. But before that happens, chances are is I'm pulling a secret close to me, and the moment I pull the secret close to me, danger is evident. It is imminent.

Matt Wade:

It is going to happen. So I I I'm not sure that I answered your question, but that's the answer that I have to give.

Lindsey Nobles:

Yeah. I think for so many people, whether or not you're a pastor in ministry, a mental health professional, like, that that secrecy, that shame component, it is the beginning of things starting to go off the rails because I think what happens and, you know, this better than I do because of the work that you are doing now, It is like the things fester in darkness, you know, it's like it gives it room to grow and breathe. Whereas if you can begin to voice it, even though that feels so scary and, like, you're risking everything in the I think our fear is that it's gonna make it more real if we say it out loud. Yeah. But the truth is that then we have people that can speak into it and begin to help us combat it and create plans out of it.

Lindsey Nobles:

Mhmm. I feel like that's, yeah, so true of all of us.

Matt Wade:

Absolutely. And, you know, when we talk about risking and and kind of moving to the space of bringing things out of darkness into light, per se, if we wanna say it like that, It's almost like we are more comfortable sacrificing public image than private integrity.

Mickenzie Vought:

Oh, that's good.

Matt Wade:

I'm okay with preserving what you think of me than who I really am. But the issue is is that I don't know of anything that stays in darkness forever.

Mickenzie Vought:

Mm-mm. No. It will come out.

Matt Wade:

Yeah. It will. And it's like, if I can choose to just say, here's what's happening. Here's where I am. Let the cards fall where they will.

Matt Wade:

At least at that moment, I can be free. Right? The freedom is the is the goal there, is I want to be free. And, you know, I I ultimately did go to my leadership and say, here's where my marriage is at. Here's what's happened.

Mickenzie Vought:

Mhmm.

Matt Wade:

What are the next steps? That was the most painful but most freeing conversation simultaneously that I've ever held in my body, in my mind, in my heart.

Mickenzie Vought:

And what was the timing of going to Onsite versus like having that conversation and reaching out for help?

Matt Wade:

There was too much time. Let me say too much time passed. Yeah. Too much time, probably a year to year and a half. Mhmm.

Matt Wade:

Because I didn't know what well, other things the the other ideas, I just didn't know Onsite existed. Yeah. Right? Totally. That was one thing.

Matt Wade:

It was it was a lack of knowledge. Mhmm. The other part was total fear of even honestly, had I known about it, I probably would not have went that direction just because of fear.

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah. Yeah. You said that you went and kinda had this experience at Onsite, and then it kinda changed the trajectory of where your vocation went, where your calling went. What was your schema or experience with therapy with by yourself or with your wife before that?

Matt Wade:

Yeah. So before that, we went to, who is a, I guess, like a distant mentor right now. I don't It's not like every day I sit with this person, but I read their stuff and every now and then get to spend time with them, but we went to a guy named Kenny Sandifer, and it was the therapist that actually our organization provided. And, you know, Kenny's just a country boy. He's a cowboy.

Matt Wade:

And so when we walk in his office, I'm like, what kind of church budget therapist have they sent me to? Right? Because he's in cowboy boots, and I had no idea he is like the guy, right, for emotionally focused therapy. Mhmm. And so that's the type of therapy we found ourselves in about a year before I went to Onsite

Matt Wade:

Okay. Maybe now that yeah. That that helps me with the timeline. Yeah. But about a year to year and a half of who went to Onsite, we were in therapy, but here's the deal.

Matt Wade:

I was still holding a secret while we were in therapy. We're wondering why why is it therapy moving us forward? It's because I've learned that there is no intimacy where there's secrecy. And so I had to, in a roundabout way, say here's here's what's really happened. Here's what's got us in this mess.

Matt Wade:

Right? Yeah. So that's when I go to leadership and say, here's where our marriage is at. This is when I go to Onsite While I'm at Onsite by the way, and I'm I'm kind of piecing a timeline together.

Matt Wade:

While I'm at Onsite, her dear friend Jim Cress pulls me aside and Angela Thompson pulls me aside and says, hey, If your marriage is going to heal, this is what's gonna be required of you. And I was, like, you can't be telling me that. Please don't tell me I've got to go and say this. I've got to go say this out loud. What?

Matt Wade:

And so that was kind of the catalyst for me eventually getting the guts to face, I guess, face the music. And, yeah, and even when I we went we when we went back to our couples therapy work, after coming out of Onsite, we went continued our couples therapy work. I remember our therapist even there with Kenny saying, I just want you to know today that somebody's probably not said this to you, so but I'm proud of you for the bravery it took for you to be truthful. And I I hang on to that, And now I I get to share that with my clients when they come forward and say, here's where we've been. Here's what's happened.

Mickenzie Vought:

As Matt was telling his story of reconciliation in his marriage, I was struck by his willingness to enter into the grief and pain of other couples' stories on a consistent basis. While having walked through it himself, I imagine it might be difficult to work with couples in situations that so often hearken back to tender parts of his own story. I asked Matt to explain how his past has informed his desire to work with couples.

Matt Wade:

I've never heard the question that way, but I I think it's because of the gift that was given to us, I wanna give that to other couples. I wanna provide a safe place, and, actually, I've changed that now. We don't necessarily have a safe space. We have a brave space. I we're offering a brave space to people, because it's not safe in here.

Matt Wade:

This office is not safe for your nervous system. It it disregulates the heck out of you. Right?

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah.

Matt Wade:

It's scary as hell to come in here and go, here's my mess. And no wonder therapy takes so long for couples because there haven't even you know, we spend 90% 90% estimated around 90% of emotionally focused therapy is spent in de escalation. It's just getting us to come down. Right? To get the nervous system regulated than couples work.

Matt Wade:

And so part of that is I wanna be able to provide that brave space for people so they can come in here and fall apart and have a pillow to fall on whether than concrete.

Mickenzie Vought:

You've mentioned emotionally focused therapy a couple of different times. Can you give us maybe an overview of what that is and why you've decided to come specialized and really work with couples through that modality?

Matt Wade:

Well, first, it's an experiential model.

Mickenzie Vought:

Mhmm.

Matt Wade:

And we love experiential with Onsite. Right? That's our thing. Right? So I actually do, EFT, emotionally focused therapy, and I do psychodrama and gestalt work, which is gestalt work, the empty chair type stuff.

Matt Wade:

Right? It's close to psychodrama, but there's not physical people in the room with you. Mhmm. But emotionally focused there, but EFT is an attachment based model, experiential. It's also systemic in nature.

Matt Wade:

So you're working both experientially and systemically. So we're working from your family of origin, your attachment wounding, and trying to create, basically this attachment security through your partner. And so we use that through emotion regulation, through some you know, a lot of, basically experiencing your partner restructuring the relational bond in a way that's secure, that's safe. Doesn't mean we don't get dysregulated, doesn't mean we don't lose it sometimes. It just means that we have a base to come back to in our partner.

Matt Wade:

So EFT slows all of that down, through an unbelievable amount of steps and stages and all that. Right? 3 steps, 12 stages, and 5 different moves that you make within the model to get a couple regulated for each other so they're not escalating. And either one one person has a tendency to dial it up, one person has a tendency to dial it down. In my world, we call it a pursuer and a withdrawer, or an anxious or avoidant attachment, or fight or flight.

Matt Wade:

We live in these states. And so EFT kind of brings its center, right, and tries to regulate the couple so they can turn to each other and have a secure base.

Lindsey Nobles:

Matt, like, even from your own story, it had me thinking about, like, when is the time for, like, couples therapy versus individual therapy?

Matt Wade:

That is the perfect question because it is like it needs to be answered often. So let me I wanna answer it by talking about obstacles to couples therapy, if I can do that.

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah. That's great.

Matt Wade:

An obstacle to couples therapy would be an undiagnosed or unmedicated disorder. Right? So if I have generalized anxiety disorder or major depressive disorder, bipolar, borderline personality disorder, schizophrenia, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Right? If I have that activated in my life because of trauma or whatever, if that comes in the room and it's not regulated some way, that is going to be a major obstacle to couples' work.

Matt Wade:

So we spend the first four sessions just doing assessment on is this are you guys good candidates for couples work right now?

Lindsey Nobles:

Four sessions.

Matt Wade:

Four sessions. My first session is 90 minutes. The second session is with 1 person. The 3rd session is with another person, and the 4th is everybody back together for me to kind of say, here's what our treatment goals are. Here's kind of a plan moving forward.

Matt Wade:

Now every EFT therapist probably does this differently, but this is how I have found that works in our practice. Why? Because I've gotten myself into some situations by not doing proper assessments, and then having a disorder that stays alive in the room. And if the it's it's almost like a disorder, and I hate to call it that because people have there's a lot of shame around that word. So let's say it's like if you have a a 100 bricks sitting on your chest and you can't breathe.

Matt Wade:

I need you to go offload the bricks in individual work so that your marriage can breathe in the room. You've got to be able to share the air in the room, but the disorder often takes up the air, if that makes sense. So we often recommend, I want you to go to this psychiatrist to work on med management. I want you to go to individual, do some individual work, and here's the type of individual work that I think you need, whether it's cognitive behavioral, dialectical behavior, maybe it's to go to Onsite. I send untold amount of people to Onsite to do the Living Centered Program or Healing Trauma.

Matt Wade:

We're actually working now even to get some of my clients to the Onsite's Wellness House, which is gonna be our the program. I say hour. I just I just I'm it's I'm an alumni. So hour.

Mickenzie Vought:

You're bought in. I love it. Yes.

Matt Wade:

I'm bought in. I love it. Right. I just I do. I believe deeply in the work.

Matt Wade:

So point is, we want to move people toward individual work so that we have good couples work.

Lindsey Nobles:

I imagine if, like, that sometimes that's frustrating. Yeah. Like, you know, it's like you're like, no. I just want to work on this thing. Like, this is the pain point I'm feeling.

Matt Wade:

Right.

Lindsey Nobles:

And now you're telling me I need to go do all this other stuff. Yeah. How do you overcome that? And it's like people have to believe and have hope that it's worth it on the other side? How do you give them a glimpse of that?

Matt Wade:

Yeah. So I think part of it is is I do I do share a little bit of our story. Because I think the vulnerability that connects us, of course, I don't share every detail of everything, but I do remind people that before we could do proper couples work, I had to go take because, again, the secret kept a big wall upright. So once we were able to go do our own couples work, and Amber was able to go to a lady named Lori Lokey, and we know Lori because it's Bill Lokey's the late Bill Lokey who is, a dear friend of all of us. Right?

Matt Wade:

Yeah. She went to Laurie for a while, and I I went to another person for a while, Angela Thompson. And, so I share our story about this is why it's important for us to go this way before we come this way. Right? We need to take care of intrapsychic before we take care of interpersonal.

Matt Wade:

So in other words, take care of what's between the ears before we try to take care of what's between the chairs because that will help us tremendously to even do that kind of work in the room. And, again, you're right. Some people push back and go, but we just know if we can just work out this one problem. And so once we get through those four stages of assessment or those 4 sessions for assessment, I think people often find, oh, this is not about that thing. Mhmm.

Matt Wade:

I because it's it's never about the thing. It's not about the toothpaste not being rolled up from the bottom. Right?

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah.

Matt Wade:

It's not about the dishes not being put properly in the dishwasher. It's generally some attachment wounding that that it is coming alive in the room.

Mickenzie Vought:

As Matt mentioned attachment, I harken back to the first episode in this series with Ryan. So much of how we show up in our relationships is determined by our earliest experiences and our understanding of ourselves and those around us. As a couples therapist, I asked Matt to speak specifically to the dynamics and cycles that couples can find themselves in when their attachment styles are in conflict. And furthermore, I was curious if he could explain a pattern where continual wounding over time can reveal itself years into a relationship. How we can be 15, 20, 30 years into a relationship and just start doing that attachment work.

Matt Wade:

If you could imagine your life is like a magnet. Okay? And, all of life is like the shrapnel, like a pile of shrapnel. Right? And it's from maybe my my dad left, my mom left, and and that was kind of my story.

Matt Wade:

My mom left when I was 14 months old. My dad and I weren't very close. My grandmother raised me, but she and I were in a car accident in 1993. A drunk driver hit us and killed her. I was with her.

Matt Wade:

Oh my gosh. 3 years later, my mom dies in a car accident. My grandfather dies in the process. Both of my great grandparents. So from 11 to 16, there was a lot of, abandonment.

Matt Wade:

Some of it unintentional, what I call involuntary abandonment. Right?

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah.

Matt Wade:

And so those woundings and I was sexually abused when I was a young boy, several times in my neighborhood. Mhmm. And so if we look at those tragic things happening, and and for some it may not be as deeply as tragic, but trauma is trauma. Right? It whatever level you put it on trauma is trauma.

Matt Wade:

So if we can imagine our lives like a magnet that we drag it through from the day we are born and even sometimes in utero, and there's studies even on how we're impacted even in utero with trauma. So let's say before we are born, all the way through the day we get married, we're dragging it through. Right? Maybe a coach spoke negatively to us. Maybe a band director.

Matt Wade:

Maybe a teacher talked down to us. Maybe an uncle. Whatever it may be. Right? You guys get the idea.

Matt Wade:

We're dragging all of this through one day, and we bring this pile of stuff to our partner and go, hey. Will you love all of this? And by the way, if you bump into this, I'm gonna make you pay for it.

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah.

Matt Wade:

And that's what attachment is. It's all of this stuff brought to this person, and we're saying, please don't trigger this. Please don't hurt me again. Please don't wound me again. I've got all of this, and I just need you to love this.

Matt Wade:

Right? And so it that's kind of what attachment is. It's kind of what's wired together is fired together is the cliche statement in therapy. Right? What's wired together back there gets fired, in our relationships.

Lindsey Nobles:

I love that shrapnel illustration. I never have heard it spoken like that before, and it's just such a visual of, like Yeah. How we are functioning as we walk through the world. And I think about how many people actually have issues in their coupleship and then end up divorcing, and then it just adds to the pile. Yes.

Lindsey Nobles:

Yeah. And then they find another magnet that attracts it.

Matt Wade:

That's right.

Lindsey Nobles:

It just cumulates. I think it it's helpful to, like, really be aware of the fact that so much of what we argue about is like this historical stuff. Yes. But until we go back and, like, uncover it and do the work of untangling ourselves from it, that we're gonna continue to find people that will take it in and then it becomes a bigger problem. Which is just crazy to think about.

Mickenzie Vought:

Or we're gonna attract people that make it worse. Like

Lindsey Nobles:

But, yeah, the solution is always, like, well, if it's not working for you, like, move on. But the truth of the matter is, like, we're not working for us, you know?

Mickenzie Vought:

That's good news.

Matt Wade:

Oh, gosh. Yes. Yes. We're not working for us. In fact, I don't know how to to say this any other way than if I am trying to move on from whatever, and the moment I meet someone and they make me feel all the feels, that's just wounds attracting wounds.

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah.

Matt Wade:

If they may oh my god. I'm so in love. I know this has only been a week. It's like, no. You're so wounded because something in you is coming alive because something in them is coming alive.

Matt Wade:

And it's probably a deep need attachment, for healthy attachment. But if we don't slow that way down and do work around that first, we're gonna find ourselves right back in the same situation. Now someone can always push back and go, yes, but we met and we were only together a week and we've been married for 50 years. Bravo. That's not normal.

Matt Wade:

Right? Well, I'm so happy.

Mickenzie Vought:

You are the exception.

Matt Wade:

You're the rule. You're the rule. That's right.

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah.

Matt Wade:

And so, one of the statements again, cliche therapy statement, but it's true. If it's hysterical, it's historical.

Mickenzie Vought:

Yep.

Matt Wade:

Right? If it causes something to do this in me, like I as as Megan Reordan Jarvis says, a beehive in my chest. Right? Mhmm. If it causes that in me, it's probably historical.

Matt Wade:

That's an attachment wound. I need to go to explore that before I try to bring somebody else into the equation.

Mickenzie Vought:

So much of this conversation was centered around helping couples who are experiencing difficulty or conflict in their partnership. But I wondered how individuals entering into a relationship could start from a healthy foundation. Here's what Matt had to say.

Matt Wade:

Obviously, go to therapy. Right? That's that's obviously. That's step 1. Or find a good coach or what whatever whatever works for you.

Matt Wade:

Right? And both of those worlds are very vibrant now, and it's it's good. And therapy is not as taboo as it used to be, thankfully. Right? Mhmm.

Matt Wade:

Secondly, I I used the term a good relationship is like good barbecue. It's low and slow. Mhmm. Just go low and slow. We're not trying to win a race here.

Matt Wade:

Right? We're we're trying to discover one another. We're trying to discover, is this person even compatible for my life? So, again, go to therapy. Go low and slow.

Matt Wade:

And once you go, you know what? I think I wanna take the next step of this. Go to couples therapy. Start exploring. Are we compatible even with the way we live our lives?

Matt Wade:

Because unless you're because hopefully, you're not just moving in together a week later and trying to figure all this out as you go. And, again, whatever. People do what people do. But I think there's a slow methodical way to do this healthy so that you're not kind of re wounding and opening up old wounds again. Yeah.

Matt Wade:

I think that answered the question. I

Mickenzie Vought:

think so. What would be some signs that my life's not compatible with another person's? I'm just

Matt Wade:

Oh, my.

Mickenzie Vought:

So fascinated by that.

Matt Wade:

That's a good that's a good one there. I would say, again, if that thing comes alive in me like the beehive earlier, if something's going on there, you know, we joke about red flags, but they're there for a reason.

Lindsey Nobles:

Yeah. If I have that

Matt Wade:

thing in my gut that goes something's just not right here. It's okay to say, you're not for me. I'm not for you. I'm out.

Lindsey Nobles:

Just do

Matt Wade:

that. Right? It's okay to do that. So I would say look for those red flags, pay attention to your gut. And, yeah, pay attention to the beehive.

Matt Wade:

I love Megan's thing or pay attention to the beehive.

Lindsey Nobles:

I had some friends that, got married a couple weeks ago, and they were talking about doing couples work before their marriage.

Mickenzie Vought:

And I

Lindsey Nobles:

just, part of it, they, like, went through sort of their histories with each other. And even friends that have done our coupleship program, which we are bringing back this fall. We're so excited. The idea of doing the kinda intimate work that we do at Onsite with someone that is, like, in your day to day and, like, knows your bullshit

Matt Wade:

Mhmm.

Lindsey Nobles:

Is scary. You know? It's not like it's gonna I mean, I think it you know, like, for people that come into our living centered program, you have this, like, amazing experience. You get to kind of present yourself. I don't think most people are thinking like this, but in some ways, you're protected because nobody can say, like, hey, that's not really how you are.

Lindsey Nobles:

That's not really coming across.

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah.

Lindsey Nobles:

You totally own your narrative. And the idea of sort of going there and going back into your history and telling your story with this accountability partner Yeah. Is a whole different kind of intimacy.

Matt Wade:

A whole different type of vulnerability. Right? And we know the word vulnerable comes from the Latin word wound. So I'm opening myself up to be wounded by even being vulnerable with you. Right?

Lindsey Nobles:

Right.

Matt Wade:

So, yes, it's a whole another level of intimacy. But even this past weekend, I did a a 3 day workshop with a couple where they had done some previous discovery outside of therapy. Mhmm. And that previous discovery, not having someone sit with them and create a brave space to do that, actually gave them signs of maybe we shouldn't do this relationship together. Mhmm.

Matt Wade:

Right? So I think if you can do that in a safe place or in a brave space to have someone slow all that down, to kind of hold space and kind of put that in a container of, yes, that is their history, but that doesn't mean that's who they are now. Or is that going to be too much? Is that going to be an obstacle for you to enter into a relationship with this person? We need to explore that because it may be hitting something in that other person that they cannot get over.

Matt Wade:

Right? That they can't handle. They can't contain that. So I think doing that kind of work, it's very scary. Yes.

Matt Wade:

It's very vulnerable. Yes. But I think it does paint a real picture of the life that you're entering into and why not know on the front end rather than discovering it 5 years in.

Mickenzie Vought:

If you or a loved one has experienced betrayal trauma or done couples work before, you may be familiar with the term disclosure. As Matt revealed, there are elements of a disclosure he had to do with his wife in the confines of a brave therapeutic space during their journey. I wondered if Matt could illuminate what that process looked like practically for the individuals he works with and the role that he plays as the therapist in the disclosure process.

Matt Wade:

One of the things, again, when we do our individual work, a lot of times the secrets are revealed in the individual time. Right? And that that disclosure could be a gambling addiction. It could be a pornography addiction. Right?

Matt Wade:

It it may not just be an affair. Yeah. I'm not minimizing an affair, but I'm just saying it may not just be that because, generally, when we talk about disclosure

Mickenzie Vought:

That's what I think of immediately.

Matt Wade:

Affair. Right. So the disclosure could be a lot of things. The disclosure could be I mean, I've had one person say, you know, I've been saving and hoarding money for my for my spouse for a long time, and it's like and and and wondering where did our money go? Well, I actually have it.

Matt Wade:

I've just been hiding it. Right? So even something like that is a disclosure. Right? Yeah.

Matt Wade:

So part of that is working with the individual over several, possibly sessions, on how do you want to disclose this. Right? It's not just, hey, next session, you've got to drop a bomb. Yeah. Right?

Matt Wade:

It's it's we take time to kind of unfold that story and even kinda lead up into that to there being an eventual time where we go, today's gonna be the day where you're gonna come in during your session, and we're gonna unfold this thing, and we're gonna do it methodically. Every story is different. Every way is different, but, ultimately, we're gonna take time to unfold that through a series of sessions. We're not just gonna light a fuse in 1 session and bomb, and now your 50 minutes is up. God bless.

Matt Wade:

You'll have a good life. Right? See you next week. Day.

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah.

Matt Wade:

It's scary. I mean, that's awful to send somebody home with that. So, generally, I will block off at least a 3 hour minimum to kind of work on that. When we do disclose, it'll be a longer session. And by that by that time, the other partner has a clue that something's going on, of course, if we're blocking off time.

Matt Wade:

People aren't stupid. Right? So they know something's coming. But even in that, they're preparing their body and their mind of, oh, my gosh. Something's going to happen in this session because this is not normal.

Matt Wade:

And so they're kind of prepared for something, Elaine. Rarely does somebody blindsided by that, you know.

Lindsey Nobles:

Yeah. A big part of it too, Matt, isn't it, like, making sure that you're, like, have everything that you need to reveal sort of together and thought through so that you're not like once you do it, that you're not leaking out other information after the fact. Continuing to wound. Yeah. Where people feel like, gosh, you know, like, we did this big thing and then now I'm still getting pieces of the story or whatever.

Matt Wade:

Unfortunately, it still leaks. Trauma leaks and drops. Yeah. It it the first one is gonna be a big release. Right?

Matt Wade:

It's gonna be, I got that off my chest. Unfortunately, I do prepare my clients for I just want you to be aware that more things can happen along the way, and that happens often. Yeah. And it's very difficult because you get that that one wound, that that gaping hole in somebody's heart, and you're you're just triaging that. Right?

Matt Wade:

And you're trying to stop the hemorrhage. But, ultimately, there are times where other things comes out, and, and it's hard to prepare for that because even they don't disclose that to the therapist, even though we look and say, hey, is there anything else that we need to be aware of? Sometimes it just doesn't happen. So it's it's kinda hard to know that it's all gonna come out at one time.

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah. I think I've used this quote 1,000 times on our podcast, but there's an Esther Perel quote where she talks about that most of us in the Western world will have 2 to 3 serious relationships in our lives, and some of them will be with the same person. Are and throughout this conversation, I've thought about the work that you do. And when couples come in and have do this hard work together where they're kind of disentangling attachment, finding their own healing, like the result is a completely different relationship if they choose to move forward. So how do you or how do we know whether or not, hey, this is something we should move forward in or no, we should actually uncouple?

Mickenzie Vought:

We have reached these irreconcilable differences, quote, unquote. Like, I just wonder when you meet that point, what does that look like for someone who's maybe listening today going, I want to do this work, but I'm afraid of one of these two realities. Maybe I'm afraid of building something new because this dysfunction is at least known or having to leave someone?

Matt Wade:

Yeah. Great question. Well, first, Esther is so right about that.

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah.

Matt Wade:

In fact, that Kenny used to say to us, we're not going to rebuild an old marriage. We're going to construct a brand new one.

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah.

Matt Wade:

Right? So it wasn't even we're not even building on the rubble. We're we're just we're excavating. We're clearing it all out, and we're starting over. And I understand that's not completely possible because you have history.

Matt Wade:

Right? Yeah. And the wound is still there. But, yes, the idea of a new a new relationship. I've I've probably in 25 different guys for my poor wife, right?

Matt Wade:

You know, I don't know what version I'm getting married to this week, right, or married to this week. But when it comes to knowing when to call it

Mickenzie Vought:

Mhmm.

Matt Wade:

There's a term we use in EFT called a burned out pursuer or a withdrawer that is completely withdrawn from the relationship. And I think when we get to that place, that's where the decision making is really difficult. Yeah. It's I I don't have any I don't think I have anything left in the tank to give to you, or I'm so far wounded I've withdrawn so much from the relationship that I've reclused from the relationship. Now people can come back from it, but it is very difficult.

Matt Wade:

And it I think in those seasons of marriage, in those seasons of life, I think that's where we have to come to a place of where do you feel like the relationship is at? How do you feel like the relationship can recover? Because I'm not sure that the therapeutic process at that point is gonna lead them to full recovery. You know, I'd I'd it's just so hard to tell about

Mickenzie Vought:

It's so individualized. Yeah.

Matt Wade:

It is so individualized based on because I've had burned out pursuers and withdrawers who were so far withdrawn come back, and it's great. But most of the time and and that could be me as a clinician. I hope not. Right? Mhmm.

Matt Wade:

But most of the time, it's very difficult to pull those back toward each other, and and that's when the relationship will ultimately dissolve.

Lindsey Nobles:

We've been talking a lot about, like, kind of navigating conflict and, like, tension in marriage. And I think a lot of us just wanna be good, like, better in relationship. You know? And maybe nothing is wrong. Nothing is broken.

Lindsey Nobles:

Yep. We just know that we could be a better spouse, a better friend, a better partner, a better coworker. So like, do you have any sort of like basic relational tools that you could share that would help us like this week, just be a little bit better in our relationships?

Matt Wade:

Absolutely. So my wife and I practice this one, so I'm not giving you something we don't practice. Okay? And she kind of makes fun of it sometimes, and we kind of joke, which is a beautiful thing now because we can laugh about it. She'll go, you're doing that therapy thing, aren't you?

Matt Wade:

And I go, I am. I'm doing it, and it works every time. Whenever we feel something get what Sue Johnson calls a raw spot, and a raw spot is that that attachment wounding. Right? Whenever I get something bumped up in me, from whatever, from my attachment woundings, I have a tendency to want to go, if you would just right?

Matt Wade:

To start off, if you would just or here's what you did. So one thing is that we have implemented in our relationship is I will say to her, okay. Hold on a second. I'll go, the story I'm making up in my head is that your anger with me by the face that you just made at me. Can you help me with that?

Matt Wade:

Yeah. And as practical and as corny as that sounds, it kills the negative cycle, or it slows it down from actually coming for us like a storm. Because the moment I go into blame the negative cycle, my negative interactive patterns gonna start up, and we're gonna start doing this dance of going back and forth with each other and defending our positions. So a practical tool is the story that I'm making up in my head, so there's no blame, I'm taking responsibility. So the story I'm making up in my head is fill in the blank.

Matt Wade:

Can you help me with that? Now what I'm doing is I'm actually reaching to help my attachment need and not reacting out of my attachment wounding.

Mickenzie Vought:

That's so practical.

Matt Wade:

Yeah. It's practical. It's easy.

Lindsey Nobles:

Just giving voice to your assumptions. You're asking your partner to, like, yeah, like, either verify or negate, like, is this true? Is it

Matt Wade:

That's right.

Lindsey Nobles:

Is this real?

Matt Wade:

That's right. Yeah. And it also makes them aware that they could be doing something

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah.

Matt Wade:

Without calling them out or shaming them for it. Yeah. So that's a very practical way that we we kind of help conversations as well.

Mickenzie Vought:

Well, while you're here, I'm just gonna use it for my personal marriage therapist. The I think I am having a current, tension point. I think my husband and I are really trying to find moments of connection in a very busy life. I know that lots of people will relate to this. We have 2 small children, we just have a lot on our plate.

Mickenzie Vought:

And I think the conversations right now in our home is how do we share the mental load? How do we each take on what needs to, you know, go on to keep our lives moving, but also how are we creating moments to reconnect back with one another? Because I think in this season, it's one of our like, core beliefs is that we want to stay connected to one another. We know that that's possible. And also, it's really hard because life is crazy with toddlers, right?

Mickenzie Vought:

And we found ourselves having just logistical conversations all the time, like, in the spare moments in the evening, like here's this, do this, and we weren't connecting. And so we started having these Friday meetings where we lay out our whole lives and all of our schedules. But I would love your encouragement any other way of how do we get outside of logistics to find moments of connection as someone who has children and is, you know, a marriage therapist? Please enlighten me. I would love that.

Matt Wade:

So it's it's all hard work. That's the first thing. It's just hard work. Mhmm. So Amber and I, we were about to hit our 20 years of marriage, thankful to Onsite and EFT, etcetera.

Matt Wade:

Right? And this saving grace for us in a busy busy season of life. Right? Kids, we're launching a whole coaching platform in 2025 we're working on. She's launched her own business.

Matt Wade:

I mean, there's so much going on. Right? So I I get what you mean. The intentionality of that means we do get up an extra hour early. Yeah.

Matt Wade:

And we just do. And I hate every second of getting up an extra hour early, but we get up. Yeah. We have shared experiences. You know what I found to be a very practical thing that and, again, it doesn't work for everyone, so I'm not trying to make my way of doing it everyone else's way of doing it.

Matt Wade:

Even if it's taking 10 minutes to go outside and just hold her hand. Mhmm. Just go for the dang 10 minutes. Yeah. It's 10 minutes you would have spent scrolling on your phone, vegging out, trying to get the kids to shut the hell up.

Matt Wade:

Right? And it's like, just take 10 minutes to go hold their hand. Put the devices down. You know, the thing is we already know what to do, but it doesn't feel connecting enough.

Mickenzie Vought:

You think you need, like, 3 days on a beach in Mexico when 10 minutes holding hands could do it?

Matt Wade:

A 100%. Because this is the word we wanna use here is called attunement. We're trying to get attunement. We're trying to say I see you, I hear you, I wanna be with you. Shared experiences are great.

Matt Wade:

3 days on the beach is great, but I can have a shared experiences shared experience sitting at my kitchen table playing sequins or playing phase 10 for 30 minutes. So very practical ways. And, you know, the Internet is full of card games for couples. But the thing is, they buy them and they sit on a shelf, and they wonder why they don't connect. Pick up the damn cards.

Matt Wade:

Just pick them up. Pick up the cards and do what they say. Intentionality is what creates connection. You know, we are so intentional about connecting with all kinds of people in our life except the person that we share a bed with. That is so bizarre.

Mickenzie Vought:

Mhmm.

Matt Wade:

We're so intentional because it's common. We treat it as common. They'll be there tomorrow. Chances are, if we keep going that direction, they will not be there tomorrow. So we have to be intentional about it.

Matt Wade:

There is no magic sauce. There is no magic wand. And if there was a magic wand, we would miss the process anyway. We would miss the journey of it. Hold hands.

Matt Wade:

Take time to slow down and kiss your partner. Grab them on the face and say, I want you to know that I love you today. I see you today. Thank you for being a good dad. Thank you for being a good wife.

Matt Wade:

Amber texted me 2 days ago, and she said there's some things that we needed to do financially, and I just wanted you to know that I appreciate that you took an extra weekend of intensives to even help us make that income. I appreciate how you provide. We've never spoken to each other like that in our past. Well, mainly because I didn't make money. That's beside the point.

Matt Wade:

Well, because I didn't make money. There's something to be grateful for now. Right? But the point is, it's the intentionality. She didn't have to say that to me.

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah.

Matt Wade:

Right? It was I learned something from my couple this weekend, and I go and we go on a walk, a 10 minute walk. And I said, I just want you to know something that I learned something from my couple that I'm falling short in in our relationship. And and and here's what it is, and I shared what it was. And and the act the the fact is Amber loves to really chat, and sometimes it annoys the hell out of me because it's just chat chat chat.

Matt Wade:

Right? And sometimes she can feel that I'm annoyed. And when I when and I'm a pursuer in our relationship, she's a withdrawer. So naturally, when she finally does come forward to talk and I act as though it's annoying me, guess what she's gonna do? She's going to shut down and withdraw.

Matt Wade:

Now disconnection happens, and there's only gonna be so many times she can handle that. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Lindsey Nobles:

Totally.

Matt Wade:

So me saving me even going back to her and saying to her, I wanna own my crap here and go, I've made you feel like that you're an annoyance to me. Mhmm. That's on me. Immediately, we start repairing what is ruptured. So I I say look for those moments of repair, hold hands, sit in the grass together, do the goofy thing.

Matt Wade:

Right? Do the ridiculous thing. And I I think that's how we do it. It's the intentionality of just just showing up.

Mickenzie Vought:

Yeah.

Lindsey Nobles:

I love the sort of ending on the idea of intentionality because we started on the idea of, like, what goes wrong.

Matt Wade:

Yeah.

Lindsey Nobles:

We talked about drifting, and I just remember the concept of drift is things drift when there's not, like, effort to move them in a forward direction. And so, like, drift happens if we're not intentional, and that's when things go wrong. So Yeah. Let's do it. That's like, take the effort and be intentional and tell people we care about them and do all this.

Matt Wade:

Absolutely. So Intentionality is like the moorings. Right? It's the anchors. Yeah.

Matt Wade:

That keep us with each other. That's that's the kind of thing that hold us from drifting too far apart. Because, you know, no marriage drifts toward health. It drifts toward a lack of health. And so those intentionality, those are the moorings, the anchors for us.

Lindsey Nobles:

This has been awesome today, Matt. Thank you so much for sharing your story and all your wisdom.

Matt Wade:

Thank you.

Mickenzie Vought:

I think so much of what you were saying here at the end just reminds me about those small two degree shifts that we think it needs to be a big action and the way that we maintain and continue in health is just small, intentional things to repair. So thank you so much for chatting with us, and we are so grateful for the way you show up in the world and the way you're helping people, and being such an advocate for Onsite. So thanks.

Matt Wade:

Thank you, guys, so very much. I'm so grateful for you.

Mickenzie Vought:

Thanks for listening to the Living Centered Podcast. If you're enjoying the show, we'd love for you to consider leaving us a review or rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you listen. It only takes a few seconds to navigate to the show in your app and select the stars to begin your rating. It helps more people find the show, and we really appreciate it. Thanks so much.