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Interested in conversations about the nature of reality, multidimensionality, truth, being, religion, spirituality, life, love, consciousness, and language?
Wondering how to thrive in an uncertain and rapidly changing world?
Do you want to learn about things you've never experienced or heard of?
If so, we might just be for you!
Wendy Frase 0:00
Welcome to wake up call for the soul with Bill and Wendy. Hello, Bill.
Bill Frase 0:06
Hey, Wendy.
Wendy Frase 0:06
Well, we're back again with this ongoing conversation. It is a new day, but we will continue a little bit the conversation that we had last time, which was on sacrifice, and you took a hard stance last time on sacrifice, if the listeners want to go back and listen to that, but today we are going to talk about is love really the answer. You alluded to that in the last episode, but we didn't want to go any further, because you brought forth this possibility that there is another way. So if sacrifice isn't necessary, what's the alternative?
Bill Frase 0:53
The alternative is love. But I'm guessing that a lot of listeners to this podcast may be rolling their eyes. Hence the really in the title
Wendy Frase 1:04
is love really the answer, right?
Bill Frase 1:08
Because I think we've all heard this before that, oh, we just need more love. We just need to be more loving. And what I'd like to do is dig in on this subject of love in a way that I am pretty confident is not one that happens in most conversations about love. Because when, when I hear most people talking about love, they seem to be talking either about a single thing, that love is just love, and there's just one kind of love. We really only have one word for love, in a way, and I think that that leads people to think that there is only one love, or that all loves are the same, or that they are essentially the same. The other thing is, is that there are people who think that there's a gazillion kinds of love that there are. There's motherly love and brotherly love, and love between romantic partners and the love between parents and children and blah, blah. There's all these different kinds of
Wendy Frase 2:06
love of ice cream.
Bill Frase 2:07
There you go. Right food, chocolate, right. Take your pick. And what I'd like to do in this conversation is to break down either this single idea of love or this ridiculous multiplicity of loves into two types of love, to attempt to put all of those loves into two distinct categories that represent two very different qualities of love. So that's what I'm hoping to do in this episode as a foundation then for what we are anticipating would be our next conversation, if this goes the way we plan.
Wendy Frase 2:47
And but like, I'm a bit confused right now, just because last time we were talking about sacrifice and sacrifice and myth, Love came into that idea,
Bill Frase 3:00
not that I'm aware of. I'm not aware
Wendy Frase 3:03
you're gonna say something about myth in the beginning, when we were transitioning to discussing love, yeah, well, I
Bill Frase 3:10
was just going to go back to the original idea that brought us into that conversation, because when we talked about religion, we talked about religion in the context of myth. And myth is the idea that irreconcilable things can be reconciled, but nobody knows how they get reconciled. In these stories, that the things that lead to this reconciliation in a lot of the stories, I think I called them nonsensical, or they, yeah, they're nonsensical. They just don't make sense. And so we don't know exactly how these reconciliations happened, but these stories, these myths, put forward the possibility that reconciliation is possible, and that's why I like Rene's idea of this realization that, oh, the mechanism of reconciliation is sacrifice. We murder someone in order to achieve peace by blaming them and then exiling them, murdering them. And whether it's an individual or group, is kind of, I mean, it's just a scale of the violence and awfulness that is the murder or the exile of a surrogate victim,
Wendy Frase 4:11
and that kind of love is conditioned by ideas that sacrifice is necessary for progress.
Bill Frase 4:20
Yeah,
Wendy Frase 4:22
because we talked about even sayings last time, no pain, no gain. So sacrifice necessary for progress, and that's where we get to today's discussion, where no love is necessary for progress, or just love is the answer,
Bill Frase 4:39
because I've posed things in this format, that the problem with sacrifice is that it doesn't actually reconcile anything. It doesn't achieve anything you talked about that in our last episode, we go to war, and nothing really gets any better. It's usually worse and but we have these stories, these ideas, is somehow through cost, loss, sacrifice, things are going to get better because of the myths that are ruling the human world.
Wendy Frase 5:07
Yes, and the more complex the world has become, the more simplicity we seek. I've heard that before, and that has resonated with me, and I think of love as simple, but you have different ideas of love. Let's dive in. Let's dig deep now and talk about the two different kinds of love that you see.
Bill Frase 5:30
All right,
Wendy Frase 5:30
that makes sense to me, I must add, because I'm kind of bought into this whole ideas that you come up with, but they're not ideas. They resonate with me. So let's go bill, let's dig in.
Bill Frase 5:42
So for the purposes of this conversation, we'll talk about the first kind of love, and we can call it created love, conditioned love, or conditional love, or natural love.
Wendy Frase 5:58
I like that idea, natural love. I kind of resonate with that. But what is the definition?
Bill Frase 6:03
Okay, so if you like natural love, then that's what we'll go for. So All right, thanks, Bill. Sure. I just, I want to be inclusive if I'm going to define a thing.
Wendy Frase 6:11
No, no. So other people might resonate with created love, conditioned love. I like natural love.
Bill Frase 6:18
So natural love, for the purposes of this conversation, is the substance that is the essential nature of human beings,
Wendy Frase 6:32
our our nature. Now, I think I feel like,
Bill Frase 6:36
hence, natural maybe,
Wendy Frase 6:38
and right, we're all born. I believe, well, there's that word belief again, so I feel I resonate with you
Bill Frase 6:47
can believe. I don't care. I've got my own prejudices, belief. But you can believe whatever you want,
Wendy Frase 6:53
that when children are born into this world, they have love, this, this natural love. We all come out as loving beings. It's just we're corrupted by this world
Bill Frase 7:08
well, and that's one of the key things. Is that when we see newborn infants, most of us feel a lot of love for these newborn infants. We right, and we, in our own sense, I think, feel their love in return, whether we can articulate that, or we're consciously aware of it, or not, it just seems to be part of the package. But that's part of the challenge of natural love. Natural love, one of the issues with it is that, and this is why I use the word created, is because it is created, it doesn't have an independent existence. It is a love that is part of creation, which means that being a part of creation, it has the capability of being conditioned or becoming conditional, meaning that conditions can impinge themselves upon this love and cause this love to not be as loving. If I can pack as many love words in there as I can.
Wendy Frase 8:09
When I think of conditional love, I often think of it as the children start growing up well, I will love you if you behave better, or if you do this, or if you love me back. And a child and a parent might not actually mean that, but the child is picking up on that, and they might feel more love if they behave this way, or if they act this way, or if they're this kind of person, and so that starts the beginning of our conditioned love experience in this world, we,
Bill Frase 8:53
as human beings, with this conditioned love, we have The ability to engage the flow of love toward ourselves and toward others, but we also have the ability to make choices that cut off the flow of that love toward ourselves and others. And so that's that dynamic that you're describing is, is that I'm a child, I experience the love of my parents, and maybe my parents believe that their love is unconditional for me, and yet I do something they don't like, and it don't feel like love. It feels like something else. I mean, it's love, but it's love with conditions.
Wendy Frase 9:29
and messages, subtle messages, whether they be verbal or just feelings.
Bill Frase 9:34
Yeah, well, we're all psychic and empathic So, and especially children, because their minds haven't developed all these defenses yet, so they pick it up. They even if they can't articulate it or verbalize it, children know that something has changed. This love that I thought was unconditional has now got conditions to it. It's like, well, if I want this love, then I guess I need to play the game of aligning myself, my way of being, my behaviors, with these conditions that I'm experiencing in the world. And this is what we call the human condition, the fact that we are all experiencing these conditions, instead of something that is more unconditional, something that just flows to us because we exist. Yeah, and so this is the the fact of natural love. The key fact of it, for me is that it is created, and therefore it is subject to what we could call conditions, pollution, corruption. It can be turned on and off like a faucet, and we choose that, and other people choose that, and we're aware of it. And then we have choices to make. Do I change who I am, who I think I am, who I am being, what I am doing, in order to get more of this conditioned love.
Wendy Frase 10:53
And then we grow up and we go to school, and we experience it from teachers and friends and in the workplace then, and perhaps romantic partners. So then it goes on and on, and we're conditioned in whatever way we're conditioned, and that's why we're all so messed up and the world's so chaotic. So hopefully,
Bill Frase 11:19
yeah, think about, I mean, yeah, right, you talked about simplicity. Well, what's the most simple thing? Leave the faucet running. But what do we do? We turn it off and on, and we don't just turn it off and on randomly. We have rules for when we turn it on and when we turn it off. And everybody's got all these rules, and they're running all these rules all the time. That's complicated. That's a massive water works because people are turning wheels over here and they're shutting it off over here, it's
Wendy Frase 11:43
and then we're reacting to different things coming at us. The faucet being turned on and off. I like that analogy.
Bill Frase 11:50
I can't get the water. I'm dying of thirst. Yeah, I'm in the desert over here. Where's my oasis?
Wendy Frase 11:56
Wow. So now, since you were saying conditional love, I'm starting to see a picture of unconditional love.
Bill Frase 12:08
Yeah, so while we all may think that all loves are or are not created equal, the next love that we're going to talk about the second type, category or quality of love, as far as we can tell, appears not to be created at all. And so this second type of love, we'll call it uncreated love, unconditioned or unconditional love, or divine love.
Wendy Frase 12:41
And I've all also recently, just recently heard it called Source love, which I really resonate with that, okay, growing up in the church, I heard God's love, but I like this more inclusive idea, source love,
Bill Frase 12:56
yeah, we can call it source love too. We can call it, you know,anything we want,
Wendy Frase 13:02
anything
Bill Frase 13:03
anything
Wendy Frase 13:04
because it's just a language, what each person resonates with, to under to understand the contrast of these loves.
Bill Frase 13:11
Yeah, and if this love is unconditional, then it shouldn't care what you call it, right? Being the nature of unconditional love?
Wendy Frase 13:17
Yes,
Bill Frase 13:17
We'll go to the definition.
Wendy Frase 13:19
Let's, let's do it
Bill Frase 13:20
all right, the substance that is part of the essential nature of I'm using a word here, divinity, the ultimate source, creator, origin, that which is greater. Take your pick, God. Whatever word, it doesn't matter. It's unconditional. You're not going to be judged for picking the wrong word here. So the substance that is a part of the essential nature of this vast, awesome ground of being that permeates everything,
Wendy Frase 13:55
hmm, yeah, soaking that in, I under I understand what that is mentally, hopefully I experience it personally as well. I'm not even sure what I want to say about that, because it's, it's it is the answer. I think I have more questions some up eventually, of like, how can we get more of that? How can we move towards that. That might be for another episode, but, yeah, that's exciting that there is a different kind of love than a lot of us think of, the conditioned love, the love that's just out there in the world today. Because it's not the love that we think of, well, it's not the love that we should experience. So should think of and experience. I want to experience and be surrounded by this unconditional love, this source love, this divine love. What. Ever you want to call it.
Bill Frase 15:03
And so the key difference between this love this second love we're talking about, source love, unconditional love, is that because it is uncreated, it is a love that has existed and that does exist outside of what we might call this creation, the cosmos. All that is, meaning that it has always existed. It existed before we had things like time and space here. So because it is not a part of creation in the same way as natural love. It doesn't have a beginning and it doesn't have an end, and so because it doesn't have those things, it is unconditional. It cannot be stemmed. It cannot be stopped. It human beings can refuse to allow it or experience it, but in terms of its beingness, it is, it is.
Wendy Frase 16:09
So, it's out there, available?
Bill Frase 16:13
It is, right.
Wendy Frase 16:14
To all of us?
Bill Frase 16:15
I found your statement really interesting, that I want this love to be all around me.
Wendy Frase 16:20
Yeah,
Bill Frase 16:20
I'm like, well,it is,
Wendy Frase 16:22
Oh! it's out there. I just, need to experience it.
Bill Frase 16:27
It's everywhere, right
Wendy Frase 16:29
Then the next step is the experience of the love,
Bill Frase 16:32
right
Wendy Frase 16:33
But it's out there, but we don't experience it,
Bill Frase 16:40
Right and that's one of the differences with this love, is that while we automatically get natural love as part of our birthday package, coming into this world, this substance of source, divine unconditional love, it is a gift, and it is a gift given freely. That's why it's everywhere available. But in order for it to be received on this planet at this time and these conditions, people have to want it. They have to desire it. They have to allow it in, because it is a powerful, transformative gift, energy. I already said powerful, but it's a power. It is, it is beyond nature. It is, by definition, supernatural love.
Wendy Frase 17:37
Now I feel that some people out there might be saying, all right, Bill's in la la land, because, unfortunately, I don't experience it. The world's chaotic and messed up. Now, I like this idea, but I know it's not an idea. It's reality, but and it's truth for me, as you we talked about in the truth episode. I'm buying into this because I do feel that the human invention. What do you say the human
Bill Frase 18:11
the fabricated world of human invention?
Wendy Frase 18:13
Yes, that's what
Bill Frase 18:16
I love, complexity, and I like accuracy in my speech.
Wendy Frase 18:19
It's a little hard for me, the fabricated world of human invention, we have created this idea of natural love. We don't necessarily know it, but the love that we feel and that we experience is really not source love. It's the part of this fabricated world of human invention
Bill Frase 18:42
for most people, most of the time, my sense is that that is true. And looking at the world, it to your point, it appears to be that that is actually the case, unfortunately at this time, hence why we're doing this podcast, because I would love for more people to know about this whole unconditional love reality that is available.
Wendy Frase 19:04
And I'm starting to have a little bit of an aha moment, because just the question is love, really, the answer. I'm starting, in my mind, anyways, to see that this possibility, that kind of love you're talking about the second kind of love, really is the answer. It's just, how do we get from point A to point B?
Bill Frase 19:31
I think a big part of that is probably going to be in the next episode, in terms of of what I would call individual practice,
Wendy Frase 19:43
Yes, that sounds good, but I'm starting to get there in my brain here that we're moving in that direction,
Bill Frase 19:49
yeah, but I think before we go there, I just, I think it's might be helpful. It might be helpful to mention that natural love. The first type of love in its current condition, it can be purified. There are many things that people are doing that they can do to purify this love, to get it into its most pristine quality possible. Because natural love isn't bad, no, it's just corruptible. That's all. It's natural. It's part of nature.
Wendy Frase 20:22
So there are some parts of natural love that really are better than other parts, like the conditional love.
Bill Frase 20:30
Yeah, I mean natural love and the conditions on this planet. It's a it's a mixed bag, mixed bag. It's a really mixed bag that you have these high beautiful things, of people jumping into rivers to save people who have fallen in, risking their lives, people first responders who are running into the fire to save people, mothers who are unconditionally loving their children. You know, beautiful acts of generosity and kindness and all these things. And this is beautiful. It's a wonderful thing, but you also have it in absolute depths of degradation, with war, with violence, with murder, with ecocide, take your pick. There's so many ways that it's gone wrong, and it's all that's that full gamut of awesomeness to horror.
Wendy Frase 21:21
I like that point because I don't know if we stressed that earlier, that natural love can be wonderful, and loving people are out there, and there's so much good in the world, and you distinguish this source love even a little bit different from that wonderful natural love,
Bill Frase 21:41
when we're talking about source, unconditional love, this love, it doesn't have a ceiling. I talked before about how in natural love, it can be purified. It can be brought into a pristine condition. But it stops there. It has a ceiling on on the possibilities and potential for its further development, because, again, it's natural, it rises to the highest level of nature possible, but it's not able to cross that threshold into the supernatural, that which is beyond the realm of nature, and that's where, for me, Divine Love is the real thing, because Divine Love, it doesn't just offer purification, it offers transmutation, transformation, the actual changing of a natural created being, aka what we call humans, from limited natural Creatures into beings with limitless potential for continuous development, progress, growth and contribution.
Wendy Frase 22:46
All right, I'm listening to you here, Bill, and I am really agreeing with pretty much everything you're saying. But I'm wondering, from a listener perspective, how do you know so much? And maybe this isn't the time to get into it, and probably not. But I know over the years, Bill you have brought forth these ideas which you feel are truth, and I know for me, so much of what you say, and have said over the years, they've it's just resonated with me. So I can buy into this, because I've always been a seeker and a searcher, and just experiencing love, and hopefully some of this unconditional love in my mind. This all really makes sense. This is aha for me, and so I buy into a lot of what you're saying. But I'm wondering if any listeners are wondering, well, you sound like you know what you're talking about. How do you know what you're talking about? But maybe they're saying, No, he doesn't know what he's talking about. So I don't know.
Bill Frase 24:09
I mean, I think the thing I can talk about in this episode, at this point, is that I have been engaging in a practice for well over a quarter century now, and in that practice, I have been seeking to allow this unconditional source love to enter into my being and work a process of transformation within me. And because of my experience in engaging in this practice over the past quarter century plus the perceptions experiences that I've had in my practice, lead me to feel that these things that I've been sharing are not merely what I would call mindful opinions or ideas or beliefs or beliefs, even facts or things you've read these things are deeply and personally true for me, and I have seen my perceptions, my awareness grow and expand as I have engaged in this practice to where, as we've said in previous episodes, there's lots of things that people believe are rock solid realities, that I don't see them as real at all. And then there are lots of other things that people think don't exist at all, that for me are rock solid realities. And the only thing I can connect to the fact that my experience of life and reality appears to be significantly different from most of the people I interact with, suggests to me that something is happening to me and that this love may actually exist, because when I ask for it, I have perceptions that give me the sense that I am receiving it, and then I have these long term outcomes that suggest that I am not who I was five years ago. I'm not who I was, 1015, 2025, years ago. I'm not saying anyone else has noticed, but I've noticed, and that's my perception for myself, and that's why I feel confident in inviting people to a practice similar to the one I've been engaging in for 25 years, because I'm a fan of what works, and I don't keep doing things that don't work. Generally speaking, I'm still working on some stuff, the whole being right thing. I need to let that go. Okay, I get it, but again, I feel that I'm aware of these issues that I have because of the love I've received, that I now have more conscious awareness of them to say, Hmm, you know what? Maybe it's time to clean up this stuff that I just thought was a part of me. It's a journey. It's a process. And so that's why I feel confident saying the things I say with the confidence that I say them, because I have nothing in my experience to cause me to doubt in any way that what I'm doing is working
Wendy Frase 27:08
Well, thank you for that. I think that that could be very helpful to listeners, because I've known you over all these years, and I've seen your progression, and I think that's what hopefully everyone wants is progress in their lives towards this bigger better truth. I like to Yeah, towards this bigger better truth. It's not just an idea for us. It's this truth that we found and are experiencing, not perfectly. I'm still a human being. You're a human being. We're on this journey to experience more of this source love and hopefully allow ourselves to be transformed and others as well. So it is very exciting to share these differences between natural love versus source love. And I don't even know what else I want to say at that point, but we've been talking about it so much over the years that I sometimes wonder how other people would think if they're hearing this conversation. Yeah, probably that we're a little bit crazy.
Bill Frase 28:29
I hope so. I mean, in an insane world, crazy people are the only ones who are saying so yeah, I people call me crazy. I'm thinking, Oh, I must be on the right track. So, yeah, send me all of your Bill your crazy comments. I'll just soak that stuff in and be like, Yes, I'm on the right track. Keep going, Bill. Keep going. Keep going. And I think another point just to bring in at this point is, is that, because in the last episode, the question was, is sacrifice necessary for progress? And you just brought up this idea of progress, and I'm suggesting that it is this, this unique and largely unknown quality of love that is the answer. I am suggesting that this is the answer. And I'm sure people are sitting back saying, Okay, Bill, it works on an individual level. But how does this work in terms of if sacrifice is the mechanism that is allowing the current world to, quote, unquote, work as it works. I mean, do you really think that people are going to take on this love and change the world? And yeah, that's what I'm suggesting, that that as each of us allows ourselves to be changed by this love. I mean, first of all, people have to be aware of it. So this episode, for me, is basically consciousness raising, just making people aware of like, oh, this is a possibility?
Wendy Frase 29:47
That's what they say. Even if you have an issue or an addiction, being aware that you do is the first step,
Bill Frase 29:54
yeah, in the 12 step process, yeah, the recognition that I have a problem, right?
Wendy Frase 29:59
So. Hopefully we're bringing a little bit of awareness of this possibility.
Bill Frase 30:05
Yeah, yeah. And in that awareness, then I'm going to go back to our first full episode, the truth, facts, belief episode. Part of the idea that I had shared in that episode, which is going to come up over and over and over again is this idea of resonance and that, and this idea that the universe is not a bunch of separate things. It's not people aren't separate. People aren't separate from what they think is outside of themselves. All of these separations are illusory. They are false. And the the mechanism by which change happens in a unified cosmos is resonance, and so the fact that I am doing my best to resonate with this essence of love is an invitation to everyone throughout the entire cosmos to resonate with this love. Again. Free Will reigns. People have choices. So there are people in this cosmos who are like, Whoa, I like what you got, Bill. And then there's all kinds of other people in the world who are like, I want nothing to do with that choice. But as more and more of us make these choices, as more and more of us resonate with these limitless possibilities and potentials that are available, they become more and more available to other people in subtle ways, and over time, more overt ways. And so for me, yeah, love is the answer. It's the way that we change from a world rooted in separation and sacrifice into one that is rooted in unity and love.
Wendy Frase 31:43
So if you feel, or anyone else feels, that we are all connected, then that means what each of us do individually matters, and I have heard this saying that you can't change anyone else, it's ourselves. So I have to work for myself on my own love, my own natural love, progressing and also this receiving of this source love, so that I can be changed and transformed and add to the energies and the connection to this world. Because whatever I do, I hope that it leads me to be a better person, and all my interactions with every single person and being an animal and tree on this planet will be changed because of what I do inside and receiving that love. So that's what I am taking away from this conversation.
Bill Frase 32:42
Yeah, part of the idea of sacrifice is that in order to get other people to change, you have to force them, you have to coerce them, you have to bribe them, you have to do something to manipulate or control them or dominate them. And the idea of unconditional love is that we trust this love to act as an invitation for everyone and everything to change. And again, people have the choice of whether to accept that invitation or not. But if this love is truly unconditional, then that means that the invitation is not going away. The invitation is never leaving. The invitation continues perpetually, now and for always, for each and all of us to change, this love is the invitation for change. So no, we're not making people change. We're inviting people to change through resonance.
Wendy Frase 33:37
And as you said at the beginning, source love, divine love. God's love is all around me. It's there.
Bill Frase 33:44
It permeates every I don't even know what to call every minuscule space of the cosmos is permeated with this love so that anyone who asks for it at any time can have it, can experience it, can receive it, and can allow it to work within them. And again, our idea is the next episode, we're going to dig in on more of the specifics of what does that practice actually look like,
Wendy Frase 34:09
I can't wait, can't wait to talk to you about that.
Bill Frase 34:14
You know, I thought about some takeaways for this episode and and one of them is that I think that a lot of people have given up on this idea of love working because they've seen it just not work so many times in their personal lives, in the world and everything. And my thinking for this episode is that we're inviting people not just to any love, but to a love that cannot be corrupted a love that is not constrained by the limitations that human beings try to place upon it. And so it's this idea that, you know, because I think a lot of people will be like, well, we've tried love and it hasn't worked, but my claim is that we haven't taken it far enough. We. Haven't really gone all the way with the thing
Wendy Frase 35:02
that's right, because we're bogged down with all the reminders of the conditional love that is out there. That's all we've been seeing recently and all our lives
Bill Frase 35:10
exactly right. And so this understanding, this awareness, this even possibility, even if, even if listeners like I don't even know if this thing is real, that's fine. This, this practice that we'll talk about. It's an experiment. It's an experiment to see, well, if I, if I engage in this practice, what changes? The reason I keep doing this practice is because I keep seeing positive change.
Wendy Frase 35:35
Okay, well, that'll be for the next episode.
Bill Frase 35:37
Oh, yeah, definitely.
Wendy Frase 35:38
Well, it was great talking to you today, Bill.
Bill Frase 35:42
yeah, it was good talking to you too. Wendy, yeah, thanks. This was enjoyable for me
Wendy Frase 35:47
until next time.
Bill Frase 35:48
Until next time. Thank you so much for listening to wake up call for the soul with Bill and Wendy, we hope you'll join us next time.