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Interviewing indie founders about their journey and their products. itslaunchday.com
Dagobert Renouf (00:01)
Hey Justin, welcome to Launch Day.
Justin Chu (00:04)
Hello, Great to talk to you.
Dagobert Renouf (00:07)
Yeah, you know me too. So you're the first person who is making games. And that's like, well, that's new. That's a new thing. So can you tell us a bit about yourself? Like, how did you become an indie game maker?
Justin Chu (00:25)
Yeah, okay, yeah. ⁓ It's pretty long story, but I've always been someone that's into games, like video games, board games, played Magic the Gathering and stuff like that. Pretty big nerd, I would say. ⁓ But I've also been a software developer. ⁓ I really got into the indie-hacker space years ago. I always had the natural itch. ⁓
Dagobert Renouf (00:32)
Yeah, we've got time.
Justin Chu (00:51)
And then it was, I think saying Cortland Allen's ⁓ posts on Hacker News, like the very beginning, like the launch of IndieHackers, like when he was like, yeah, when he was hustling himself and like posting these ⁓ interviews.
Dagobert Renouf (00:56)
Yeah.
How long ago is that?
it like seven years ago something? Eight years? It's been a while now.
Justin Chu (01:08)
feel like it was like
20, I want to say 2016 or something like that. it was like nine years ago, something like that. I just started working and I was like, it like basically gave me like something to look towards because it just inspired me. Cause I was like, just started, you know, working full time as a software developer. was like, this can't, this can't be it, you know? And it gave me kind of a North star, which I really appreciated. And.
Dagobert Renouf (01:13)
Wow. Okay, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Justin Chu (01:37)
So naturally I was like, what kind of like businesses like make sense for me? ⁓ But I was still working full time and I was like, well, I'm struggling to find motivation to work on these projects. I wanna do something. So like, let me do something fun. So think the first thing that I ever did was like a...
Dagobert Renouf (01:55)
So that's interesting, you were struggling with motivation. Like you thought, okay, I wanna be an indie maker, I wanna do some things, I wanna build a SaaS or some shit. And so what do you mean you didn't find motivation? What was blocking you, think?
Justin Chu (01:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
It was work, cause I really dedicated myself to my job when I was working. So it was like nights and weekends and stuff like that. it was like, I remember working on kind of like, quote unquote boring, like enterprise tech or something, the backend stuff that isn't not something that I'm actually a user of. And for me, I think I've always had that.
Dagobert Renouf (02:16)
Yeah. Yeah.
Justin Chu (02:34)
it's to build something that I understand as a user and then it would benefit myself as well. And that's just like the creative part of my brain really kind of clicks when that happens. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. So I think my first like game adjacent project was like, yeah, they mentioned I played a lot of Magically Gathering. I was doing tournaments and stuff like that. So I built like a deck builder. So you could like...
Dagobert Renouf (02:41)
Okay.
Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. I get it, yeah.
Okay.
Justin Chu (03:01)
plan your decks and stuff like that. That kind of ties into one of my games, which involves deck building. But ⁓ that was kind of my first taste. I was like, ⁓ I did something cool, shared it on Reddit and the ⁓ Magic subreddit, and it did really well. And that was very motivating for me. was like, ⁓ OK. That got some traction.
Dagobert Renouf (03:20)
Yeah, it's an amazing
community, like the indie games and like the gaming is like, think even better than indie hacking community. Cause like in the hacking community, there's like a bunch of scammers, like as part of every, there's like a lot of cool people, like a lot of scammers, you know? So it's kind of like, but if you like indie games, like it just seems, and actually like launch day, I was very inspired by,
Justin Chu (03:24)
huh.
Yeah.
you.
Dagobert Renouf (03:48)
you know, long time ago, something called Humble Bundle, which is this platform that like, originally that was just like a bundle of like, I think, nine ⁓ indie games or something, or something like that. And you could pay whatever you want and you got all the games, plus it was given some money to charity. And that was a massive thing. I remember like 15 years ago when they did that. And I was thinking about it when doing launch day. I was like, this is the kind of thing, you know? So yeah.
Justin Chu (03:52)
yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Exactly. Yeah,
it's let indie makers kind of bundle together to provide something kind of like that's easy for consumers to do. that's a great deal. But it's cool to bring the creators together. And yeah, I totally agree. Like gaming industry. So actually, I work right now at a startup. So I'm working on my indie stuff on the side. I work at a startup that is in the gaming industry because I'm like, hey,
Dagobert Renouf (04:26)
Yeah.
Justin Chu (04:39)
Let me learn more about the industry and working on a startup was a great way to do that. And I've learned a lot about the gaming industry and it is like, is.
Dagobert Renouf (04:46)
So I'm just curious, what
do you mean startup in the gaming industry? So not a gaming company, so what is it?
Justin Chu (04:53)
Yeah, we do scalable multiplayer servers and we're starting to branch out into other areas, but ⁓ some recent games like Stormgate and Splitgate to launch using our dedicated servers. So we're doing the Kubernetes platform for... Exactly, exactly. But I get to work directly with the people working on the game and it's so inspiring just seeing people...
Dagobert Renouf (05:09)
yeah. So still like the backend kind of expertise that you have. Okay, I see, but in the gaming industry. Okay, I see, cool.
Justin Chu (05:23)
It's like a large scale passion project of all these people working on this cool game. They love it themselves and it's like, I don't know, it's a really cool community, very tight knit too. People know each other and support each other. Very much like, know, kind of the best parts of the IndieHackers community.
Dagobert Renouf (05:32)
Yeah, man.
Yeah,
wow. Cool, yeah, I really wanted to do games before, when I was in my teens. Then I kind of like started, I didn't see a clear path, so I started doing websites and then here I am, but yeah, cool. So I guess you were kind of the same, like starting as an engineer and then, so you started indie making with these deck organizer builder ⁓ app. And so...
Justin Chu (05:54)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dagobert Renouf (06:09)
But I guess it's kind of hard to monetize, especially at this project. Was it just like free, this first one? Was it paid? Yeah.
Justin Chu (06:15)
Yeah, this one was completely free. It was more like, hey, I want
to learn. I think AngularJS was like the cool tech back then. So I was like, ⁓ give me an excuse to build Angular. And then I learned so much like front-end. I always enjoyed doing like front-end dev as well. So it gave me an outlet for that because I was doing mostly back-end work. But yeah, there was no real monetization paths. Like, maybe I'll throw in some premium features or something like that. But yeah, I never even got to that point. Yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (06:23)
before react.
So
that was the first one. Then you kept working. So how do we go to there to now where you have like three games in a bundle? Like how do you get there?
Justin Chu (06:45)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah?
Yeah, it's a mix of two things. One was, I don't know if you've ever played Jackbox games. They're kind of these like party games that you play on your phone and you connect to like a big screen and it's like...
Dagobert Renouf (06:59)
⁓
Oh, no, I don't really play a lot, but okay, I see what you mean. Yeah.
Justin Chu (07:08)
Yeah, yeah,
so it's very casual like it went, it got really popular during COVID because, you know, people were at home and it was a way to play, like play casual games with friends. But even before then, like one of my friends showed it to me and it was like, ⁓ like, a, was like, I could, I could build something, you know, like this, the web interface at least. the game.
Dagobert Renouf (07:27)
But is it like
online? So everybody's home, phone and TV, but it's also online. So the TV is kind of like the common thing. Okay.
Justin Chu (07:33)
Yeah, it was.
It was like, yeah, could like share. So during like playing remotely, you could share your screen and then everyone is joining and then they join from their phone. It's just like a browser based like, like connection. And I was like, ⁓ that's so cool. It like the experience of playing that game felt just as fun as playing a board game in person or playing a fun like couch co-op, you know, multiplayer game. And I was like, wow, you can really do a lot with.
Dagobert Renouf (07:50)
Yeah, I see, okay, I see.
Wow, okay cool. Yeah, so that's
like a kind of like a variant of, you know, playing online on an Xbox or Switch. It's just like more like board game style feeling. Okay, cool.
Justin Chu (08:08)
Yeah, exactly.
Mm-hmm.
So then my wheels started turning and I was like, ⁓ like I have the skills to like do the web, like the web dev for it. ⁓ there, there's a lot of polish with, with that. And they have a whole like, you can like buy it on the Xbox store. And then you're like, you know, they all these nice animations and stuff like that. But I was like, the trade off there is like, you can't really like go to like a bar or like a pub or something like that and play the games. And my original inspiration was like.
Dagobert Renouf (08:40)
Yeah.
Justin Chu (08:42)
⁓ I, one of my friends would often like, ⁓ go, Hey, let's meet at this brewery or like this bar. And then like, Hey, Justin, like bring, bring some board games or something like that. Cause I had a large collection of like board games. So I would, I'd be lugging around this bag filled with games, you know, not the coolest look at, at like a bar or something like that. So I was like,
Dagobert Renouf (08:53)
Okay. Yeah.
Okay. There's
a bar just next where I live where they have like a whole wall full of board games and you can just pick. Yeah, okay.
Justin Chu (09:07)
huh. Yeah,
yeah, no, exactly. So yeah, would be lugging this huge bag. People are like spilling beer, you all over my cards. I'm pretty like, that would, I would die a little inside each time that happened. And I was like, okay, like, is there a, can I blend some of these ideas, like some strategy board games, more casual strategy board games and like the portability of just like, I just have it in my back pocket. I can play it with my friends, you know, there's like a lull in the conversation or it's like,
Dagobert Renouf (09:18)
yeah, my God.
Justin Chu (09:36)
We want to hang out for a long time and sometimes a game is nice. You don't want to force it always, but it's a nice option to have, I think.
Dagobert Renouf (09:37)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, it's even just when you're just two of you, with your girlfriend or something can be nice also, instead of just always watching Netflix, you know, it's good. Cool.
Justin Chu (09:50)
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, no, totally. It's
nice to have options. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (09:58)
And so it gave you
the idea, did you have an idea at this point what you wanted to do? ⁓
Justin Chu (10:02)
I first started with a, I was like, let me, know, naturally I feel like the first step is like, ⁓ what have I done that work or what have I seen that works? And then like, let me create a digital version. There's a lot of like code names and games like that where people have made digital versions. So my first one was like a, there's this game called Game of Things. ⁓ And then I basically created a, you know, I added variations and stuff like that.
I actually, I played that with friends, I never actually launched that, it was like, okay, but it was a good proof of concept. And then I started working on my own original games.
Dagobert Renouf (10:34)
Wait, so you created
the whole game from scratch? Or was it an existing concept?
Justin Chu (10:40)
It was an existing, an existing like party, like physical party game. And I was like, let me create a digital version of that.
Dagobert Renouf (10:44)
Okay.
Okay, and so you made this whole proof of concept for you and your friends of like, okay, and how did that work? Like was it this thing with the phone and the server and the web app, like the TV app?
Justin Chu (10:56)
It's
pretty much. Except the difference was there was no main TV and it was every like I would log in on my phone. I would log in. I own the game on my account and then I would click host or create game and then and then I would text my friends ⁓ the link and then they would join. And so we would just be playing on our phones. There's not like the TV, but so you lose a little bit of the immersion, but you gain the portability of like, I don't have to, you know, have an Xbox or a
Dagobert Renouf (11:13)
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.
For sure, you don't have to stay home. Yeah, yeah, okay, cool. Okay, and what did you learn from that? Because I guess that's interesting you say that, because that means you first was inspired by this whole thing with TV and mobile, which is I guess more complicated. And did it make you feel like this was unnecessary? Because sometimes that happens, like you build something, like I didn't need to build that. Like that sounds a bit like this, you know. So.
Justin Chu (11:25)
computer here to host it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
it's... ⁓ I would say it first came out of like, like what's the... You you always hear the advice like, what's the most stripped down MVP that you can build? And I was very much taking that philosophy.
Dagobert Renouf (12:00)
No, for sure. But once you
saw that it was enjoyable for people, you know.
Justin Chu (12:05)
Mm-hmm.
And I like, oh, this could work. And there is the benefit of like, we can never play those jackbox games like at a bar or something like that. But now, like the games that I make would work in that setting. Yeah. It could be a little more impromptu and less like plan ahead and like organizing and stuff like that, which I tend to appreciate. Yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (12:27)
Yes, what you mean.
Okay. So, okay. So you have your first proof of concept. What year is there? What year are we in now?
Justin Chu (12:36)
Oh man, this
will show how long I've been working on this. It was probably like 2016 or 2017 where the first proof of concept came out. Yeah. And this has been something I've worked on like in between jobs. There was a stint during COVID where I quit my job and was focused full time. We can talk about that more too. And then I kind of was like, oh, I have more to learn. then I...
Dagobert Renouf (12:46)
wow, okay cool. Okay.
Justin Chu (13:02)
decided to start doing freelance work part time and then I was like, this is a cool startup. So then I joined the startup, but I've been continuing to work on it ⁓ nights and weekends.
Dagobert Renouf (13:09)
Okay, so
it's been between side project, full time when you didn't have a job. Do you still have a job now?
Justin Chu (13:16)
Yeah, yeah, so I'm still working full-time at the gaming startup.
Dagobert Renouf (13:20)
Cool,
Okay, so you keep learning from these different startups you work with in the gaming industry. So when did you release the first game then? Like when, how does that happen?
Justin Chu (13:31)
Yeah.
That's one thing that's like in the gaming industry. It's so focused on like, this game's live on Steam or it's like, ⁓ get ready for this launch date. And that feels very waterfall. I don't know how familiar with like waterfall software development, but it's like, ⁓ put all your eggs in one basket. And then it's like, it's so scary. So I've been really trying.
Dagobert Renouf (13:52)
And after like,
yeah, you spent four years and then after one week maybe you're dead. Yeah, and that's it.
Justin Chu (13:57)
Exactly.
Yeah. it's, that's like too stressful for me. And I'm like, I want to like, you know, something from the IndieHackers community. It's like, I want to marry like cool parts of both, both sides, you know, the gaming community and the IndieHackers community. And like one thing that the IndieHacker community really embraces is like, Hey, launch fast, you know, iterate and like, you know, have you can improve and launch again and stuff like that. So very much I took like a,
Dagobert Renouf (14:21)
Yeah, and that reminds me of,
I guess, the goat of, like in indie making community, we have pillar levels. In indie gaming, they have, is it Steve Baron? Or like the guy who did ⁓ Stardew Valley? I forgot.
Justin Chu (14:37)
yeah, yeah, yeah. Or
I mean a recent one is the creator of Bellatro. It's just a single dude who did Bellatro and it's this like incredible like poker themed roguelike game. If you haven't played it, you should totally play it. It's like so inspiring for like indie game devs, yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (14:49)
God. Okay. Yeah.
Yeah, I was thinking of the guy from Stardew Valley because he did it this way. He did like early access for like four years. That's what I was thinking, you know? So that's kind of like what you went for, like being more like long-term and start shipping in public before it's finished.
Justin Chu (14:59)
yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, no, that's...
Yeah. Yeah. would, you know, cause a lot of my marketing. So one thing I chose and you know, I w we'll see, you know, how, how good of an idea this ends up being, but like, I'm like, okay, I'm not going to do a steam store. I'm not going to do a app store. I'm going to be launched on my web, you know, my website, just like all the other indie hacker products. Right. So I'm avoiding the like built-in marketing of these stores, but I don't have to pay the kind of 30 % tax, you know, that all of these stores, you know, have. And, know, it's like.
Dagobert Renouf (15:28)
Okay. Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Justin Chu (15:42)
I don't know. There's, there's something elegant about like, it's just a website you go to. It's like, pure.
Dagobert Renouf (15:45)
It is elegant, like now the
thing that's scary is distribution, because I guess these stores give you distribution, which is then way harder. so what was this first game? I'm curious, I wanna ⁓ see.
Justin Chu (15:49)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, it's
called Seize the Castle. It's like, it's a very simple game. So it's like, wanted there to be strategy. it's not like, I personally really like strategy games. So like, I wanted there to be enough like strategic decisions for me to bank on, but I wanted it to be like casual where I could play with my friends who don't really like playing like board games and stuff like that. So it's a very simple game where it's like one player is king and the rest are clans.
Dagobert Renouf (16:20)
Okay.
Justin Chu (16:27)
control clans and then you're basically deciding to team up to steal money from the king or you're fighting amongst yourselves or you're attacking the villagers, which is the life total for the king, and then it rotates and every player gets to be king for one turn. So it's this very fast-paced strategy game that works for up to six players, which is pretty rare for lot of board games. ⁓ Yeah. If you... I mean, I can...
Dagobert Renouf (16:51)
Is it still online? I'm looking for it but I can't find Siege the Castle.
Justin Chu (16:56)
It's on my homepage if we take a look at my website. I mean, I can pop it up if you want to take a look. Okay.
Dagobert Renouf (17:02)
Yeah, yeah, you can show us. It's going to be easier.
Justin Chu (17:10)
Yeah. So like my whole thing has been kind of a platform with like a collection of games, which is like the inspiration of, yeah. Yeah. So it's, so it's this, so it's like, you're, yeah, exactly. And okay. Yeah. And I can talk through my strategy there. So it's like, if you look at mobile games, cause it's very much a mobile first, you know, experience is what I kind of aim for. with mobile games, like on the app store, I'm sure you've probably seen it's like people.
Dagobert Renouf (17:15)
Yeah. yeah, Siege the Castle. Okay, cool. I love that you made boxes like a board game. Really cool.
Mm-hmm.
Justin Chu (17:39)
Consumers expect to pay nothing for the games essentially and it's like, the whales will fund it with the in-app purchases and stuff like that.
Dagobert Renouf (17:45)
It's like five minutes and you know, it's either super addictive or just five minutes and you forget. Yeah.
Justin Chu (17:51)
Exactly.
like, like personally as myself, like I've played some mobile games and I get addicted and I'm like, I have to delete this off my phone. This is like, this is like ruining my life or something. Whereas like for board games, it's like, oh, this is something I bust out when I want to have a fun experience with friends. And that it's kind of like a hangout game. That was kind of like the vision I always had in my head. I want, I want it to be a positive experience. Like I don't want it to get to a breaking point where it's like, I, this game is like bad for me. Um,
Dagobert Renouf (18:00)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah.
Justin Chu (18:20)
And
also the business model of like, a single cell sale to a single user and they get to own it and share it with their friends. Their friends don't have to download anything. They don't have to pay for anything. Really like means a lot to me. Yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (18:31)
⁓ that's, yeah, when you say it like that, that's a unique thing.
And that's cool, because I can tie into, like, your personality is that you're the guy who brings the game. You're the fun guy, let's say the guy who makes it, you know, who, kind of like event organizer guy, Loki. And so, these people who are like that, they can have that opportunity, I have this game, and then I can, that's awesome, that's a very unique value proposition for a mobile game, yeah.
Justin Chu (18:41)
Exactly.
⁓
Yeah.
Yeah, you nailed on that. It's like I'm selling to people, people like me that are like, hey, I like having a collection of games and I like kind of feeling out the group and understanding like, hey, this game would work really well in this group. there's like a deep fulfillment of like, ⁓ people are having a great time for this game that I shared. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, you nailed it. But yeah, yeah, this was the first one.
Dagobert Renouf (19:12)
Yeah, yeah,
Yeah, I see, I see, I get it. Okay, cool.
So Siege the Castle was the first one. And
so can you just show us the game, just to get an idea?
Justin Chu (19:26)
Yeah, yeah, we
can. So I'll show what so basically like to play, you just create an account and then I own all three of my games and basically you'll see the game that you own. can can try out Seeds of the Castle, Space Colony. There's like free trials with like lower player counts where you can just test out the platform and then like actually playing the game. So this one's my very this one's my very first game. There's a lot I still want to go back and improve.
Dagobert Renouf (19:37)
For sure.
Justin Chu (19:55)
But I think at the core it's a very fun game. ⁓ We actually need three players to play this, so we won't be able to play a true version of this game. if you wanna, here, I'll send this over if you wanna check it out. And then what I do to test is you just do a, I'll join from another browser and then I can show you what the actual gameplay looks like.
Dagobert Renouf (20:04)
Okay.
Can I play on my phone so I can show at the same time to people? Cool.
Justin Chu (20:24)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Yeah, and like you can, I mean this UI is a lot, but you can actually customize the rules. My idea for this was like, I mean that looks like way too much, but it's like, you know how you have house rules for like board games or something like that? It's like, I wanted to allow that level of flexibility within the game. So I always had everything.
Dagobert Renouf (20:38)
Awesome.
Okay.
Like what
kind of rules? Because you can customize every rule in the game.
Justin Chu (21:01)
It's,
which really, you know, as I added more things, yeah, these are for the nerds. Yeah, they're like the huge nerds like me that like want full, but it's like all the individual rules that you'll see. It's like, you can tweak the numbers behind them. Okay. Yes. Yeah. huh.
Dagobert Renouf (21:05)
I guess when you're like a game kind of nerd, it's awesome. Okay, cool. Okay, cool.
Okay, so I joined the game. my God, it's awesome. So it started, I'm just showing, it started
automatically. Wait, is it gonna, I'm just not sure it's gonna focus, so let me show it focuses properly. Yeah, it seems to be in focus. ⁓ Wow, it just did that automatically after just following the link. Awesome, and so now what do I do?
Justin Chu (21:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. So with this game, I've moved away from this model, but it was like, the host kind of facilitates the flow of this game. ⁓ now it's like, OK, now this is the main core game loop. Very simple. It's like you have four options. It's almost like multiplayer Rock, Scissors, where you're like, hey, my seat.
Dagobert Renouf (21:54)
And what I just want
to point out is that it's actually live updating at the same time. I don't have to refresh anything. It's really like what you're showing, I see it at the same time. That's really cool. How did you build that actually? How did you build this live thing? OK, cool.
Justin Chu (22:03)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's WebSockets. Yeah, it's like a Node.js backend.
WebSockets is the transport. then I'm using AngularJS 1.x for the UI.
Dagobert Renouf (22:16)
Old school. my
God. ⁓ yeah. That's why that's how you know that goes to show the technology doesn't matter. You don't need to follow the latest trend. Yeah. Yeah. I use WebSocket too for the live chat on lunch day because there's a live chat where people can talk during lunch day. Cool.
Justin Chu (22:22)
Yep. Yep.
yeah. Yeah, it's a great,
technology. Yeah, and then from here, you basically just select one of four actions and then it'll actually, yeah, we can do one just to test. ⁓
Dagobert Renouf (22:42)
Okay,
I will do pillage because that sounds cool.
Justin Chu (22:47)
And I built out this little animation to show the, Hey, did your action succeed or not? Yeah. It looks better on, on, on, on the phone. I definitely optimized for, yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Dagobert Renouf (22:56)
No, like it's like, yeah, yeah, for
sure. Yeah, people play on the phone, yeah.
Justin Chu (23:01)
But yeah,
so then, you like you see the results. So it's kind of like simultaneous action. So there's no waiting and then you see the results of your action. So that's how I kept it very fast pace. normally with games, it's like simultaneous. Like I try and design with mechanics that are like work better on the digital media than, than, ⁓ you know, physical. It's like, Hey, what could I do better? Like we lose the tactile nature and like the analog, like getting off your phone and stuff like that. But
Dagobert Renouf (23:12)
Okay, cool.
Mm-hmm.
Justin Chu (23:30)
What we can gain is unique mechanics that you can't have on a regular board game. Because that's generally, I think, the best comparison for my games.
Dagobert Renouf (23:36)
Yeah, yeah,
Okay, so what's the... Just to... So I get it. So what's the goal of this game? How do I win? How? Because I just try to pillage because that sounded cool, but...
Justin Chu (23:44)
Yeah. Yeah, so.
So yeah, so the way the game works is like you have life points. So like here you'll see troops for the clans. You also have troops. And then ⁓ you're trying to get the most money without dying. Because as soon as someone dies and loses all of their life, then the game, the round ends and it moves.
Dagobert Renouf (23:56)
Yeah.
It's over. And you cannot, I
guess you cannot win. I mean, you cannot earn troops. ⁓ can you?
Justin Chu (24:11)
There is a way to slowly, there's a bolster action where you can defend against attacks and then you gain troops. So there is a little bit of a way to slowly go back.
Dagobert Renouf (24:18)
Okay. But it's mostly, it's kind
of like a, so how long is a game? Because I already lost like 10 troops, so it seems like this game is going to be over in three minutes. Okay.
Justin Chu (24:26)
Yeah.
it can end very quickly or it can drag on. And that's actually one of the challenges of the game design is you want it to feel like the right length. since the game is a little more casual and there's a little bit more randomness, generally in board games, you want it to be a little bit quicker. So each round generally will be five, maybe 10 minutes max. And then there's rounds equal to each player. So everyone can be king once.
Dagobert Renouf (24:56)
so there's like three rounds. Okay, cool. Okay, I get it.
Justin Chu (24:57)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah,
yeah. And the king starts with a number of villagers. That's their life point. And they cannot ever gain more life. But they also start with 20,000 gold in their bank that you're trying to steal from them. So it's fun asymmetrical design.
Dagobert Renouf (25:18)
And why did this guy protected the village? Like he protected you, the king?
Justin Chu (25:22)
So yeah, so the other, so the king decided to protect, I want to protect my villagers, which is what keeps me in power is like kind of the theme behind it. ⁓ But then I tried to then siege the castle, which is like, but it requires at least one other clan person to siege with me in order to successfully siege the castle and steal the money. Yeah. And you can't, I mean, you could.
Dagobert Renouf (25:30)
Yeah.
⁓ yeah, and you cannot and you don't... ⁓
Justin Chu (25:48)
You could like say, hey, hey, we're gonna we're gonna go see you. But then the king knows and then he can.
Dagobert Renouf (25:48)
But the idea is like it's kind of like rock, paper, scissors in a way. Okay, cool, but like... Awesome. Yeah, yeah, six is maybe even better probably, because then... Yeah, okay, cool.
Justin Chu (25:55)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's like a fancy rock and roll scissors. Yeah. That goes up to six players. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
I would say this game works best with, yeah, four to six is like the sweet spot. Yeah, three is like, it's not as exactly, exactly. And it's generally faster rounds too, because there's just like so much going on. Yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (26:10)
Yeah, because then you have high chance of two people doing siege or something. Yeah, okay, cool.
Yeah, and I just clicked how to play. I'm just showing quickly, but you can see the rules of the game here that you just explained. So that's really cool. Awesome. OK, so that was your first game.
Justin Chu (26:30)
That was my first game, ⁓
Dagobert Renouf (26:33)
And
how did it go? How did you launch that game? How was it?
Justin Chu (26:36)
It was,
it was good. I have a friend, people enjoyed it. I had some people who like...
Dagobert Renouf (26:42)
Wait, maybe if you can stop sharing your screen so we'll see each other full screen, then we're gonna share again. Thank you. Yeah.
Justin Chu (26:45)
yes. Yeah, let's do that.
Yeah, so it was pretty good, I would say. what I wasn't getting at this point, when I was like posting about this guy, I wasn't really getting sales. ⁓ So like all throughout this-
Dagobert Renouf (27:00)
Okay, so just
to recap, you added a payment. How much is it actually, one game? mean, how much was it?
Justin Chu (27:06)
⁓
It starts at $12 at launch, so I always launch my games at $12. It's like trying to find that sweet spot of like, yeah board games generally is like $20 or more, but mobile games are obviously less and I wanted to price it, you know, what I felt the value was and then, you I run, you know, sales like, you know, discounts and stuff. I do Black Friday deals.
Dagobert Renouf (27:23)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And bundles. Okay, okay. So you
launched it at $12. And what did you do? You posted on Reddit? Where did you post it? Because you don't have distribution, so that's the stressful part.
Justin Chu (27:31)
Yeah, so it was like, exactly,
exactly. So yeah, during COVID, when Jackbox was popping off, I had already been working on this game and actually was getting to a point of polish where I was like, hey, it's, you my friends are enjoying it. ⁓ Let me post about it on Reddit. This feels like the right time. You know, I was, this was like one of my first like projects where I'm trying to make money. So, you know, there's that natural hesitancy and stuff. go, all right, COVID is too good of a, you know, time to not share this with the world.
And I posted it and I got a bunch of sign ups, people were playing it, but I had the free trial and then the purchase and I think I got maybe a handful of purchases from that, but it was like, a lot of people checked it out, but no one kind of converted. And looking back...
Dagobert Renouf (28:20)
I wouldn't have put the free
trial. I wouldn't have put the free trial. I'm not saying, I'm just saying, now when you say it like that, I'm like, ⁓ shit. ⁓
Justin Chu (28:23)
But it was like, yeah.
Yeah.
I told like, like looking back now, it was like, I was, what I was worried about was like, Hey, who's going to trust this random website? And like, you know, cause, cause I'm not on steam and I'm not on like a trusted kind of like platform that takes payments and stuff. Like it feels, you know, faceless and like, you know, sketchier, guess. so I was like, as a consumer myself, I would, I would want to try it before I buy it. Cause there's like, there's no reviews and you know, there's not like a, ⁓ clear trust, I guess being presented.
Dagobert Renouf (28:43)
Okay. ⁓
Okay,
Justin Chu (29:00)
⁓
And that one of the tweaks that I've made to my landing page that has actually led to sales, because I do like Black Friday posts nowadays and stuff, ⁓ is I have like, I did a booth at this games conference and I have a picture of that and I kind of like took that personal touch of like, these are the people, know, this is me who's behind these games and stuff like that. And it legitimizes it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Dagobert Renouf (29:23)
This is, yeah, yeah. This is the whole idea of launch day. That's why I
required interviews. Someone like, can I just not do the interview? like, no. The point is to connect with the person. There's so many products, so many games also, but if you start telling your story, then you're 1 % of the people who do that, because most people don't. And you become interesting. Yeah.
Justin Chu (29:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no. Absolutely.
It's like the story behind like these indie, whether it's a game, whether it's a, you know, a tool or something like that, like that makes people want to support you. That makes people want to like be a part of the journey. It's like, yeah, I totally agree with your idea. That's like why I wanted to be a part of this. It's like, even though, you know, games aren't like the perfect fit for this audience, it's like, this is the type of community and the type of like, this is how indie makers should be coming together.
Dagobert Renouf (29:59)
Yeah, exactly.
Justin Chu (30:13)
like, you helping each other out and stuff. yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (30:14)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, cool. So you started to get some sales, and then how did it go for the next few years? Did you keep selling it? How did you? Because launching is always kind of like the easy thing, but then what's hard is the long term.
Justin Chu (30:24)
it.
Yeah.
Yeah. So, yeah, the Siege of Castle launched it really well, like in terms of like on Reddit, like got a lot of signups and stuff. like, I just have to improve the funnel. ⁓ So I was like, I was really pumped. was like, ⁓ this is going to go good. Let me do another game. My thesis has always been like, let's get to, you know, at least three games and then, you know, we'll have this compelling bundle. That's why people aren't buying, you know, because I was following the Jackbox model, the Jackbox. Yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (30:53)
But I kind of agree with you.
You can make just people pay a bundle and they can even, it could even be a lifetime deal and they get the new games in the future and you become known for that. And yeah, wow, cool.
Justin Chu (31:07)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Exactly. So, so in my head, it was like, I just have to do more games and, it'll eventually start to start the, the, the flywheel will start to spin. ⁓ yeah. And then, and then, I,
Dagobert Renouf (31:17)
Yeah. More value, yeah. And it's also every
time you launch a new game, there's a new reason to, a new shit to talk about. So that's like marketing, that's really, yeah, really cool.
Justin Chu (31:25)
Exactly, exactly, it's
like, yeah, every game launch is an easy kind marketing opportunity. People love hearing about new games. Like that's just an easy path. And then it's like, I've never heard about your platform before. Like, look at these other games. And it's like, it'll only get, I think, I'm very optimistic on the long term, as long as I stick with it, which, you know, it's been like eight plus years. So I'm pretty stubborn.
Dagobert Renouf (31:37)
Yeah.
So
is it because it's... Okay, so you're still smiling about it, so I guess it's really your thing. And so, how... Does it take so long to make a game, or was it because you're doing other things and so you don't have that much time?
Justin Chu (32:04)
Yeah, it's,
I would say ⁓ if I was 100 % full time on it, I think I could pump out games in like, depending on how good the idea tests. it's like the unknown thing is like, I have this, I get inspired by these game ideas. I build out a prototype and then I'm play testing. And sometimes the play tests go really well and it's like, ⁓ this, I can get this ready faster.
Dagobert Renouf (32:07)
What's taking a long time?
So
you play test it, that means with your friends all the time.
Justin Chu (32:30)
with
my friends and something I started doing like a year or two ago, was, there's like a Seattle, I'm in the Seattle area. ⁓ There's a Seattle board game designer kind of meetup group that's like once a month that I go to. I don't go every time, but I go and I'm talking to these other, you know, some newbies like me, and then some like designers of games that I'm like, shit, I see that all over the stores. And it's like, you know, it's really cool. So getting feedback from all these people and play testing.
Dagobert Renouf (32:48)
Yeah, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
Justin Chu (32:59)
regularly is like crucial to game design.
Dagobert Renouf (33:01)
Yeah, because I guess between
game makers, everybody's happy to try games, guess. Everybody's always trying. It's like indie makers are always trying out new sass. It's just, OK, I get it.
Justin Chu (33:07)
Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah. And the level
of feedback is so different because it's it's one layer deeper or maybe multiple layers deeper of like really thinking through the, you know, it's not just like, this is, you know, just like cramming all these things in because that's like, you know, a lot of times you'll just get a ton of random advice. It's more kind of catered to like, hey, what a game designer would kind of needs to hear sometimes or like helps you kind of.
Dagobert Renouf (33:36)
I wonder
if there's not a risk in that, because...
For example, me when I was getting feedback on launch day, feedback from people who was just like, who wouldn't launch on launch day and who wouldn't use it or who don't give a shit, but they're entrepreneurs and they're like, oh, you should do it this way. you know, sometimes it's very dangerous. And like if you're not like, it's easy to feel like, oh, maybe they're right and then you lose your kind of like vision. So does that come up also? But maybe, I don't know.
Justin Chu (33:43)
Mm-hmm.
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, no, that's like, that's a really good point. And it's, it, I think you it's, it's very hard, but like you have to, you yourself have to have your confidence of your vision. And then you like, when you, when you get advice from other people, you have to like, you should always consider it because it always can help you think about it differently, but you should never default, just accept it. You should question it, take a look at it. And like, is there anything I agree with? Is there something like that's making me think about it from a different angle? And you, yeah, you should totally be like, Hey, is this person an actual
Dagobert Renouf (34:30)
Yeah.
You need to...
Justin Chu (34:37)
Like my third game for example is around stock trading and stuff like that. I'm getting feedback from people who would, I don't think would ever play that game. And it's like, okay, like if I want to expand the game out more, then I will consider that. But if I want to go a little bit more focused on the theme, then I'm going to stay true to my vision. So you really have to filter it yourself. And it's very hard to do and I'm still learning for sure.
Dagobert Renouf (34:51)
Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, after launch it's easier, but before launch it's harder. Because after launch you can get actual users and then it's much better. But when it's just feedback before, like people giving you advice, yeah, because it's so hard to have confidence before you have customers. Because you're like, maybe I'm crazy, maybe nobody's going to give a shit. Yeah.
Justin Chu (35:03)
Yes, yes, yes.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Exactly. And actually where I got the confidence was, so there's this Gen Con conference, it's like the biggest US board game conference. And I was like, all right, this was in co during COVID when I quit my job. And I was like, I'm full time on my stuff for like, it was like, it ended up being like nine months. ⁓ So I, I prepped this booth paid, it was like $2,000 for the booth, I think, I think back then it was the first Gen Con after the COVID, you know, I think they lost one year.
Dagobert Renouf (35:31)
Okay.
Cool.
Okay.
Man, that must be cool. mean, that's expensive. That must be cool to have a booth and you just, I don't know, that sounds cool. Like even if you're an indie maker, like, hey, here's my size and for two days you're just like, hey, what's up? I don't know, that sounds cool.
Justin Chu (35:51)
due to COVID.
It was,
yeah, it was very cool, but also incredibly, I mean, I'm a high stress person and it was like, my God, I've never done this before. And I'm just like scrambling, scrambling, scrambling. My exactly, Yeah. I mean, one thing that was shocking was like, like my games are like on the, you know, use the internet, right? ⁓ I was like, how much to get internet at your booth? Because like the cell networks sometimes get clogged, you know, at these conferences.
Dagobert Renouf (36:11)
Yeah, because you're trying to do maybe doing too much to try to grab people's attention. Yeah, okay.
Yeah, because there's too many people like in stadiums.
Justin Chu (36:30)
It would have cost $15,000 to get internet at the booth. Yeah. so then. Yeah, this was pretty, this was, yeah, this was like before Starlink was readily available and, and they actually ban you from having your own hotspot and stuff like that. It's, it's, it's, it's a, yeah, I have, I have thoughts about.
Dagobert Renouf (36:35)
my god. Just get a Starlink for two days or something, I don't know. Before. Yeah, yeah, okay.
⁓ fuck this.
But I
know the events kind of like industry is fucking ruthless. it's, know that, because like you always like, I want to go to this cool conference. Why the fuck is it $3,000? And it's not because.
Justin Chu (36:55)
Yeah, yeah, it is ruthless. Renting.
Yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (37:03)
the guy organizing the conference is making money is because everybody else is making money. Like the owner of the place, like the caterer, the food is gonna be, everything is like insanely expensive because they know, like it's like B2B, like they're selling to Microsoft so they don't give a shit. And so then when you're going there, you're like, why the fuck is it so expensive? It doesn't make any sense. Yeah, yeah.
Justin Chu (37:07)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
It's true. think
renting a, renting a chair where they'll like give a chair for your booth. was like $40 to rent a chair, like one chair for the booth. And I was like, what a lot of people do is they buy stuff at like Target and then, and then they return it after the event. And that's actually cheaper than, than like renting from the vendors there. Exactly. exactly. ⁓ But yeah, at that, at that event.
Dagobert Renouf (37:35)
Okay, I see ya.
For sure, yeah, yeah. my god. Or just bring your chairs from home, like who gives a shit? I don't know, I'm kidding. Yeah, well. Okay.
Justin Chu (37:55)
That ended up being a really good experience. mean, it was a lot of work, but I was able to pitch my game to people who were looking to buy new games, and it was such an exhilarating kind of experience. It kind of had that product-market fit in like, I'm selling to someone who wants to be sold to at the right moment, and it was to the right audience. ⁓
Dagobert Renouf (38:16)
Yeah, I guess it's super,
super qualified, someone coming to this. so I guess it's B2C, right? And this convention is like just random people coming to buy games. Like it's not gonna be like.
Justin Chu (38:22)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep, exactly. Exactly.
Yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (38:27)
Other
game designers, I mean there's gonna be both but okay cool. Yeah people who go there, they're like in the mood to buy shit. Yeah, I knew like when I started entrepreneurship like super long ago, was working with a guy and he was doing like stickers to decorate your walls, know like some designs things like, kind of like designer things. ⁓
Justin Chu (38:34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dagobert Renouf (38:49)
and he was selling online and Google ads and shit and one day he just did this big fair, where it's like, know, a home decoration fair like in France, the whole weekend. And we're like, everybody's just coming to see the new trends, but like the public. And he said it was insane. He has this printer, like this actual printer and thing to cut the material.
and he just made like the same as like three months of e-commerce sales in one weekend. And so then he just started, fuck e-commerce. And he just did like all the fails in France. He's like, fuck this, I'm just making money like this now. You know, so yeah. People are in the right mood to buy in these things. They're like, yeah.
Justin Chu (39:13)
Wow, that's so cool.
Yeah, that's awesome. It's. hmm.
Yeah. People are there to have an experience. And part of that is like, what's this cool new stuff? And it is so satisfying to, to like pitch to someone in front of you and you see their eyes light up and then they buy it. It's like, it's, it's really, really cool experience. And the two highlights from that event, it really built my confidence. One was someone walked up.
Dagobert Renouf (39:38)
Yeah.
Justin Chu (39:46)
to booth and was like, ⁓ like he was telling his friend like, I've played this game before. Like, I love this game. And I was like, wow, that was like crazy to me. And then one other person, cause I had a demo area to try the games, actually designed like a physical version of my second game. And then one person came in was like, this was my favorite game of the convention. And I was like, wow, that was like, that was, yeah, that really was very impactful.
Dagobert Renouf (39:52)
my God. Yeah.
cool.
Wait, can you show a picture?
Do you have a picture of this physical version of the game? That sounds awesome.
Justin Chu (40:15)
⁓
I actually have it. I prepped it next to me here. So we haven't. Okay, first I'll show you ⁓ Seeds of the Castles physical version so you can get an idea since we haven't shown the other one, but like.
Dagobert Renouf (40:28)
Also you made a physical version of each game.
Justin Chu (40:31)
Yeah, this one I'm still kind of testing, but yeah, so you can see there's like, you know, the different actions.
Dagobert Renouf (40:36)
Holy shit, wow, that's like, and
do you get that when you buy the mobile version or is it like a bundle, special bundle, like a special thing?
Justin Chu (40:44)
I haven't
yet productized the physical versions because there's so much logistical overhead and stuff like that. But I do plan to. Eventually I want to do Kickstarter for physical versions and then it's like, you can get the digital versions for free or you can back only the digital versions. And Kickstarter is where all the new board games launch. So it's a really cool ⁓ way for that.
Dagobert Renouf (40:50)
Yeah, yeah, the logistics is a nightmare.
Yeah, yeah, I have a friend who just looked
like a designer and it was a very cool design.
He made a lot of money in Kickstarter from that. People are just eager for this stuff. Because I think when you mix indie plus actual physical products, it's a bit more magical. It's like, it's somebody who made it. It's even cooler than Sass, I guess.
Justin Chu (41:26)
Yeah, no, absolutely.
I think.
Yeah.
My long-term vision for a physical thing is ⁓ you can basically print out these custom NFC cards, which is like the tap to join a game essentially for myself. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So now that iPhones all have that, it's like, okay, my cousin actually runs a company that I helped actually freelance at for a bit, but he does custom prints for ⁓ these NFC cards.
Dagobert Renouf (41:51)
like the Apple Pay and shit, like all these chips to automatically, yeah, okay.
Justin Chu (42:06)
And one of his customers was like this guy doing like these NFT. This was back when NFTs were crazy. And then they printed these really premium NFC cards to like signify your ownership of the NFT. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. NFC is... ⁓
Dagobert Renouf (42:16)
Yes, NFT and NFC are different things just for people.
Dagobert Renouf (42:32)
yeah, wait, it's my phone, I guess, because I use my phone. Hello, guys. Okay, wait. Do I have battery? Shit, what's happening? my God, you guys are seeing everything. Yeah, no, have batteries, it'll be cool. I guess it's heating up. my God, fucking old MacBook Air, eight gigs of RAM, this shit. ⁓ Okay, let me see.
⁓
Okay, good. I'm sorry for the interruption.
Justin Chu (43:03)
Cool. No, no,
you're totally good. Oh yeah, I think we were talking about NFC. NFC is like near field communication. It's like a tap card, kind of like how your credit cards can tap to pay. But I want to do these collectible physical cards that you can buy at a board game store. it's like, know, unique art, it's like collectible, but then basically you link it to your account. You get ownership of the games when you buy it, and then you link it to your account, and then you can tap.
Dagobert Renouf (43:27)
Mm-hmm.
Justin Chu (43:31)
players can tap to join your game quickly so I don't have to like text out a link or something like that. So it's kind of a fun physical tie-in. Yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (43:37)
Okay, the special card. Yeah, okay, yeah, I get it. Maybe
a card is a bit easier to send. You can just send in an envelope, I guess. Yeah, cool. Less logistics.
Justin Chu (43:45)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah,
I want to do like another conference again, and you maybe in the next year or two. And it's one thing I didn't have was physical products to sell. And I would have sold so much more if I had more physical things to sell because people really want like something to exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (44:01)
Yeah, yeah, for a live event you can just prepare a bunch and then go sell them. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, cool, awesome.
Well, cool, man. So now you have three games. Can we just look at the three games quickly? And then if you can tell a bit like what's the vision for what's next.
Justin Chu (44:13)
Yeah.
Yeah, let's...
screen.
So yeah, basically my second game was Space Colonies. This was a two player, like I wanted to build a good two player game that I liked. So this one's like actually has the most strategic depth. ⁓ It's simple in terms of mechanics, but it's like open information in a way kind of like chess. So there's a bit of a chess element to it very, very lightly. And then there's a bit of a, like a wagering system that is kind of like betting in poker, like doing the right size bet.
Dagobert Renouf (44:54)
Okay.
Justin Chu (44:55)
So those are two games I enjoy and it's like I wanted to kind of bring that into this game where you're basically moving ships into a... Actually I can show it real quick. ⁓
you what it actually looks like that might be. And we don't have to actually play this one, but we can. I just want to show what it looks like.
Dagobert Renouf (45:18)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Justin Chu (45:20)
So yeah, there's like, you have your ships and you're like moving to these planets to gather resources, but then your opponent can actually move to those same ones and then you do like a wager battle and then you're like big gold to see who gets to gain control of the planet. And it's simultaneous turns, it's very fast paced, but this one gets very, like you really have to think and calculate in your head, which I wanted one that was very strategic like that. So.
Dagobert Renouf (45:21)
Okay, cool.
Yeah. ⁓
You're okay.
Justin Chu (45:48)
So it's a great kind of thinky two player game ⁓ that I feel really good about this design. Personally, I think this is one of my favorites.
But I think something people will enjoy is the third game, which I've been working very hard on. Yeah, so it's a game called Bullish, and it ⁓ is a deck builder. So alluding back to the beginning of this, ⁓ chat, yes, it is a deck builder mixed with real-time stock trading. So you're building a deck of traders, level one traders, level two traders, and...
Dagobert Renouf (46:14)
Yep. Yeah, the original thing you wanted to do, yeah.
Justin Chu (46:26)
cards like happy bowl and panic chicken that allow you to manipulate the stocks. And it's this like chaotic game that there is like strategy to it because you can either be like, hey, I'm tanking the market like screw you guys or I'm going long on this bank stock.
Dagobert Renouf (46:34)
my God. Cool.
this is fun, this is funny,
yeah. It's turning this thing that we all hate, losing our savings because of assholes, but we can make fun with it. Yeah, okay, cool. Yeah, okay.
Justin Chu (46:51)
Yes, exactly. Exactly. It's,
I was inspired during the whole GameStop craze. That was like my, my, ⁓ I mean, actually let me share it. Let me share this card that I haven't added yet. This is going to be like an after launch card that I add. ⁓ but it, I have a roaring kitty card that I'm going to add, ⁓ alluding to the whole GameStop, mania that happened. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ but
Dagobert Renouf (46:59)
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
yeah, I saw the movie, the movie was cool, yeah, really cool. super interesting.
Justin Chu (47:20)
But yeah, do we have time to do one quick round of this game? It would be cool to show this one off if you think we have time.
Dagobert Renouf (47:28)
Yeah, we do. Let me rejoin because I'm struggling with my fucking laptop. So let me just close and reopen and don't do anything. yeah, I'll be right back.
Dagobert Renouf (47:40)
Yeah cool, we're back. Yeah okay, let's look at the last one. Let's do it.
Justin Chu (47:45)
Okay,
cool. I just sent over the URL and then I will share my screen. This one does work with two, although again, it works great with, actually this one works great with three, it works great with four, five, six. You could even go higher.
Dagobert Renouf (47:49)
Okay.
Justin Chu (48:04)
But yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (48:04)
Let me try that on my phone.
Justin Chu (48:14)
I'll give you so we can actually like play through it maybe around or two, but I want to give you a quick quick. Yeah. I see you joined. ⁓ So, yeah, I, I tried to level up this game and really like do a little bit more world building and like thinking through the theme. Yeah. Yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (48:18)
Okay, okay.
So cool.
Yeah, I see the design, wow, the Safari Times, like the fake newspaper.
Okay, trade and manipulate stocks in real time. Timing is everything, there will be five rounds. Okay, this seems like the funniest game for sure, okay.
Justin Chu (48:45)
And then, yeah, the key mechanic is using cards, so it's like tap and select. That's how you buy or sell stocks. So I built out this tutorial to help showcase the UX.
Dagobert Renouf (49:00)
And how many players is it?
Justin Chu (49:02)
⁓ I actually have been I've tested up to like six or seven But I think it could it could easily go up to like eight or ten It'll be pure chaos at that point, but ⁓ but yeah
Dagobert Renouf (49:12)
So you say
time the market, but is the market just generated by the other players?
Justin Chu (49:18)
Great. Yeah, that's a great question. there are three things that change the stock prices. One is there's these hidden industry trends, which are randomly generated each round for the the bank or the finance industry and the entertainment industry. You don't see it unless you have a card that allows you to see it. And then players buying and selling a stock will. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, now you got it. And then ⁓ players buying and selling will heavily impact the stock price. So we're like
Dagobert Renouf (49:23)
Okay.
wow, awesome. Which is like in real life, like insider trading. Okay, you have the insider trading count. Okay, cool.
Justin Chu (49:48)
picture where like these big hedge funds that are like market makers and stuff like that, that's kind of like the power we hold within the market. And then we also have cards that allow us to tank a stock or boost a stock or, you know, tank all stocks or boost all stocks. Yeah. And then, and then you also, you also get a draft new cards and you get some upgrades. This isn't like the key part of the game is the real time stuff. And this is like, gives you a little bit of strategic ⁓
Dagobert Renouf (50:00)
Wow, I want to use, I'm sold. Okay, cool.
Okay.
Justin Chu (50:17)
Freedom and then you can see these are this is the full pool of cards that you can ⁓ See, but you'll be able to see what the cards do as you're drafting them. Yeah Cool ready to jump in do a quick round or two. All right, so I actually I had so much fun designing these stocks I did these logos and Mike Yeah, so it's like there's the the travel stocks cruise and air air plus there's a national bank and little John
Dagobert Renouf (50:25)
Yeah, yeah,
Yeah, let's do it. Yeah.
Yeah.
Justin Chu (50:47)
a nod to Robin Hood. I had to do an AMC type reference and then a music.
Dagobert Renouf (50:54)
Did you promote
it in like the, cause there's still subreddits about the Robin Hood thing. Did you promote it there? Did they like it?
Justin Chu (50:58)
Yeah, yeah. I am going to.
this dude, this is like my first like big mark. This is my first marketing push and then I'm going to be doing more and more marketing after the fact. So you guys are getting a good sneak peek of like pre-launch essentially. Yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (51:08)
Awesome. Okay, cool. This
is awesome. Okay, so I'm ready. I wanna see.
Justin Chu (51:14)
Okay,
so now we're going. This is the first real-time trading round. All right.
Dagobert Renouf (51:19)
And so, wait, wait, just what should I do now? What's the thing I should do?
Justin Chu (51:22)
Yeah, so every three
seconds the prices will ⁓ update based on all of those factors and you can start buying stocks if you see like one of the industry trends is looking good. Like I'm going to buy a little bit of air because I see that going up. I'm going to pump that up. Hopefully you're not going to abuse me for that. ⁓
Dagobert Renouf (51:39)
I see.
Justin Chu (51:41)
And then, okay, so I see this ticking up, so I might, all I think that goes here, I'm gonna.
Get a little grumpy back.
Dagobert Renouf (51:50)
And what's this dog's got?
What do they do, these ones? It's just trading?
Justin Chu (51:54)
they
the the top row is trading and then the bottom row is like the manipulation like the special cart yeah
Dagobert Renouf (52:00)
Yeah, yeah.
Justin Chu (52:08)
Alright, 10 seconds, 10 seconds.
Dagobert Renouf (52:08)
I'm just trying to buy
some shares.
I'm buying this one because it's going solo, I think it's going to be better. Okay, are we good?
Justin Chu (52:20)
you ended with exactly Bricky and that's, I've never seen that happen before. All right, so.
Dagobert Renouf (52:26)
Okay,
so exactly break even. Okay.
Justin Chu (52:30)
So there is a... So one thing that I tried to do is like it's pretty hidden information. You don't know exactly what players are doing so if you're in the lead you'll start to see a little bit. So now you see like hey the journalists are writing about like oh I'm heavy on air so you can maybe punish me for that next round.
Dagobert Renouf (52:47)
And how would you punish me? I don't want to just be clear.
Justin Chu (52:50)
So
you could punish, like, if you think I'm continuing to invest into air, you could, like, use your manipulation stocks to tank that. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah, there's a recap. You can kind of see what I was doing. Yeah. But not, you don't know exactly what they're buying and what they're holding. That's the hidden aspect, but you can see what cards they're actively using.
Dagobert Renouf (52:56)
to drop it, to tank it. Okay, I see, see. Okay, cool. Let's do another round, I guess. Yeah. And you cannot see what other people do. Yeah.
So where do I see the chords that you use? Like on my side? Is that the chords I use? This thing?
Justin Chu (53:23)
So like,
yeah, so some of them are yours and it's small, but you can see the name. like you can see. Yeah. And then Jchu is the cards I played.
Dagobert Renouf (53:29)
yeah, I Daigo, Jchu, yeah okay, I get it. I get it, okay.
⁓ okay.
Justin Chu (53:36)
So now you get
a free upgrade, can pick cash, can pick drawing more cards, or you can promote your cards to make them more powerful.
The cash is king now.
Dagobert Renouf (53:49)
I was gonna do that too,
I'm just going to take the shark because it just seems cool, but I have no idea what it does. I see. Okay, get it. Interesting. Panic chicken.
Justin Chu (53:57)
You
And the card you draft will always
go into your hand at the next, at the start of the next round. you, know, because we only play.
Dagobert Renouf (54:09)
I just took the funniest
card. I took the shark and the chicken because they're the funniest.
Justin Chu (54:15)
Yeah,
yeah, love those are those are two of my favorites for sure. I for the shark I use Saul Goodman from ⁓ Breaking Bad. mean, I work with an artist in Brazil. He's really great. And we yeah, Saul Goodman from Breaking Bad was the yeah, It's expensive, but.
Dagobert Renouf (54:26)
my god, yeah, you're serious about this. It's not AI bullshit. my god.
So all these designs we see, it's with
an artist, it's not AI.
Justin Chu (54:35)
Yeah, yeah, no, it's all with artists. mean...
Dagobert Renouf (54:38)
Even the
logos and shit.
Justin Chu (54:40)
Yeah, yeah, well, I use some AI to prototype ideas and then I actually polish the designs myself because I have such a strong vision that I need it to be this way and I enjoy doing the art stuff.
Dagobert Renouf (54:56)
I see. I'm just trying to distract you while I play. Yeah.
Justin Chu (54:58)
Yeah, I know.
Lost 30 seconds.
Dagobert Renouf (55:03)
Okay.
Justin Chu (55:04)
Let's just go all in on my favorite stock. Let's see.
I ran out of money.
Dagobert Renouf (55:15)
Do I keep
my chords between rounds?
Justin Chu (55:18)
Sorry, what was that?
Dagobert Renouf (55:19)
Do I keep my chords between rounds?
Justin Chu (55:21)
⁓ you'll draw a new hand, so it'll shuffle into your deck, and then so you can get some of the same cards. if you save it, it does not. Yeah, you discard all the cards at the end. Yeah, good question. Ooh, nice bounce. You have a good bounce background.
Get some money on FCXN.
Dagobert Renouf (55:38)
Ok, so
I'm still in the game, but...
Justin Chu (55:42)
Yeah,
he's still in the game. It ramps up because the later rounds become way more swingy than the early rounds. So there's a natural kind of build up as we get better cards and more money in the stocks. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, let's do it.
Dagobert Renouf (55:55)
Okay, that's cool man. Well, we should wrap it up, that's awesome.
⁓ I love it, man. Maybe I should do, ⁓ you know, launch day games or something. Yeah, that's awesome.
Justin Chu (56:09)
Yeah, yeah, dude,
I hope to inspire other people to do more like B2C and like game, you know, more fun projects like that. I think it's doable. It is hard, but my vision for myself is like, what do I want to be doing if I'm like retired and stuff like that? What do I want to be doing? And like, I would want to do something like creative and fun like this. So it's like, hey, let me try and see if I can make it work earlier. I don't know. That's maybe I'm too...
Dagobert Renouf (56:30)
Yeah.
Justin Chu (56:36)
hopeful but it's it's been a fun fun to work on it for sure.
Dagobert Renouf (56:39)
No, but
that's what makes people want to play. That's the spirit, Cool. That was awesome to have you. So I really hope launch day is going to bring you some traction. I think it can because I hope I'm representative of people who think it's cool and who would be tempted to buy it. yeah, I wish it's going to be good for you. Cool.
Justin Chu (56:43)
Yeah.
Yeah, that would be awesome. Yeah, absolutely.
But honestly, it's just an honor to be a part of this. I just want to, know, first and foremost, I want to support what you're doing. I love the idea and I want to support indie makers and make more communities like this a thing. So thank you for what you're doing here.
Dagobert Renouf (57:13)
Yeah, Awesome.
Yeah, you're welcome, Cool. Cheers.