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In each episode, we take people through what we call a ‘discovery call’ during which we learn about their business, its opportunities, potential areas of development, and strategies to move forward, including those they may have missed. Using this discovery call format in each episode, I speak with folks I’ve met over the years whom I’ve learned from, to revisit these journeys. We won’t hold anything back and will reveal crucial strategies, insights, and potholes to avoid—all vital for the success of any business, regardless of its size.
I look back at us building a very successful business and everything we're talking about goes back to person to person things. If I can't picture having a beer with you, odds are we're not going to do a lot of business together.
Don Cameron:Numbers don't run a business. Sure, they're a factor in success, but if not paired with a strong foundation of purpose, values, humility, and a willingness to learn, numbers are just numbers. Such is the case for Nick Wagner, an Ontario based entrepreneur who, with a financial wind behind him, is hell bent on a humanistic approach to business. That approach carried Nick and his co founder of Premise LED to rapid growth, which was fueled by a competitive edge, and eventually to an 8 figure buyout. The key to his success is the relationships he built, be that his partner, team, or even customers.
Don Cameron:In this episode, he'll share why those relationships were so important to him and how even when he faltered, he never compromised on those values. I'm Don Cameron, and this is The Pathways to Growth, a podcast where I use my four decades of experience as a CFO consultant to analyze success stories from businesses across the country. Let's meet Nick Wagner. Can you walk me through a little bit of just your personal background?
Nick Wagner:I grew up in a family of four kids in Oakville, Ontario. I come from a family of either salespeople or politicians. I got into high school thinking about university and my father telling me, well, can't afford it, so you can't go. This of course was when my brother was in university getting a wonderful education. At that time, was working at Beaver Lumber.
Nick Wagner:They offered me a full time job when I graduated high school and offered to put me into their management training program. That was my first little taste of structured, serious work. But I was always very ambitious and sort of driven, constantly looking to make the next move. You know, in my adult life, I think I've had six jobs, maybe seven sort of after the age of 20. And they were always these big steps up.
Nick Wagner:Each time was a progress. Yeah. Just was always sticking my nose in things and self educating and I haven't spent a day in a classroom since I was 17 years old. You know, I've been very much mentored at all stages of my career and was always very open to it, hungry for it. What was the motivator or the thing that started you along the path to creating CORE, which became Premise LED?
Nick Wagner:I had lost my one and only job in my life. And I had a very good friend through business who had a business opportunity. And I jumped on that. Wasn't exactly a big success, but it gave me that taste of doing more than just being the sales guy. Like actually trying to figure out how do you run a business.
Nick Wagner:Once that died, I was back looking for work and I remember Googling. I literally wanted to try and find what was a hot market that wouldn't shrink on me and up came LED lighting. I then Googled Toronto LED companies and I found a little lighting company and a week later I was their national sales manager. My gosh, yeah. I just sort of pushed my way right into their business and spent two years there.
Nick Wagner:And during that time met my future partner, Marcus. We kind of found ourselves working on projects together and driving back and forth to job sites and going, man, we could do this so much better than the guys that own this company. Why don't they do this? And why don't they do that?
Don Cameron:The company, Premise LED, jumped on the disruption that LED tech was having on the commercial construction markets. In just eleven years, the team that Nick and his partner Marcus put together took a bite out of it with significant profitable growth. So much so it caught the eye of the private equity sector.
Nick Wagner:And eventually we went out and found a lender, a private lender who would give us some startup money. And we went and bought a container of not even LED CFL light bulbs, just so that we could get some cash flow started. And that's where it started. Two guys selling light bulbs out of the trunk of their car.
Don Cameron:Every once in a while, you meet somebody. And while you may not realize it at the moment, they're a true partner who can get you through difficult times. Marcus, for instance, stepped up for Nick at a time when he needed it more than ever, solidifying their bond as associates, but also friends.
Nick Wagner:You know, think everybody starts a business thinking it's going to be wonderful and glorious and just this sprint to success. Once you get into it, you realize it's really nothing like that.
Don Cameron:Right.
Nick Wagner:It's an incredible grind. So for Marcus and I, we were able to kind of help each other through all that. We both did everything in the beginning. And so we could spell the other person when they were sort of running out of energy. You know, another thing happened in the early days of our startup about a year into our business, my wife passed away.
Nick Wagner:Oh, okay. Quite suddenly and unexpectedly. And sort of what happened in the following months, you know, how much Marcus stepped up and showed that he was my partner and that we were going to get through it, was just phenomenal. And it created an incredible level of trust, you know, and then you realize that there's going to be ebbs and flows as an entrepreneur and a startup. And if you have to absorb them all alone, it's tough.
Nick Wagner:But if you've got a partner who can pick you up when you're down and vice versa, the lows don't get very low, you know? So I'm a big proponent of partnerships while at the same time being quite terrified of them because you hear stories of people who don't get that good match. Yep. And it really hurts the business.
Don Cameron:Yeah. Somehow along the way, you guys both understood that each of you will be good partners to the other. And that seemed to come from right from the start.
Nick Wagner:Yeah, absolutely. When we started, when we incorporated, we were fiftyfifty partners, not a little bit one way or the other. It was fiftyfifty. And we said from day one, we're coming in together and we're going out together and that's just the way this is going to be. And we stuck to that, you know, for eleven years.
Nick Wagner:Trust me, there were plenty of times where we screamed at each other and stormed out of the office. But then a short time later, when you calm down, you realize that's my partner. I'm going to succeed with him. And that's the only path. And once you get all that crap out of the way, you get back to focusing on business.
Nick Wagner:Like
Don Cameron:all relationships, a business partnership takes effort and commitment. Nick and Marcus understood this. When you succeed, your partner succeeds, and vice versa. So it's essential to take the relationship seriously and put in the work. This show of commitment and care was extended to the entire team at Core, which had now become Premise LED.
Nick Wagner:We went from sort of nothing to about a $3,000,000 company. And then we sort of hit a little bit of critical mass, expanded our sales force. And all of a sudden the next year we went from three to, I think it was 7,000,000. Marcus and I sort of decided at that time that, you know, we were always going to try and be ahead of the curve. We started trying to proactively hire for the company we were going to be in six months.
Nick Wagner:That allowed us to get people in, spend some time training them, trying to see if they were a fit. And I'm not going to lie, we turned over a bunch of people because we had a very specific go to market strategy. We were hyper customer focused. We had sayings in our office that every employee could have told you, you know, things like, you know, the answer is yes, unless there's an earth shattering reason why it has to be no. Right.
Nick Wagner:Right. I mean, are just too hard to get. They're too hard to keep. And we always said to our employees, you know, our customer service people and such, I said, you know, don't be afraid to make a mistake. I said, everyone in here is free to go ahead and make a $10,000 mistake, right?
Nick Wagner:Yep. You won't lose your job as long as you were trying to do what you thought was best for the customer. You're fine. Now we're going to talk about how not to make that mistake again.
Don Cameron:Yep. Yeah. Learned from this one. Yeah.
Nick Wagner:You had to empower them to try and be a word we used to always use, awesome. Yep. Right? And we used to call it the awesomeness. And that's what it was, was just this idea that anyone in the company could try and go above and beyond because we genuinely wanted people to succeed.
Nick Wagner:So as we built out sort of the team below us, probably another year goes by and Marcus and I are in China and in Hong Kong for a couple of lighting shows. And we walked through the show and we see that there's just been this huge breakthrough in new products coming. The LED industry, although it was already starting to do well, was about to explode. We were sitting on a patio bar on Victoria Harbor in Hong Kong. And I said to Marcus, we're in trouble.
Nick Wagner:We got to hire a sales manager. I can't be the company's top salesman. Sure. We kind of nodded as we slowly sipped our beer, realizing what was coming. And I said, actually, I know exactly who we need to hire.
Nick Wagner:At that moment, I sent an email from Hong Kong to a gentleman by the name of Gary Pounder, who was a customer of ours that I had gotten to know. Okay. Yep. And I said to him, I'm getting on a plane tomorrow to fly back. The day after I'm having lunch with you.
Nick Wagner:Marcus and I have also always been very honest with ourselves about what we're not good at and what we don't know. We were doing all the purchasing, but neither of us really had a great background in purchasing. We were winging it in accounting. Again, didn't understand how any of it worked, just knew there was always money in the bank. And we started to understand that to do it properly, we had to get more talent around us.
Don Cameron:I know you have an interesting story about how you came to build your relationship with your banker. Can you tell me about that?
Nick Wagner:We started off with RBC. We were growing, we had an operating line and we had a wonderful account manager and we were coming up on another spurt of growth where we wanted to up our line and they brought in a regional vice president. I told her a bit about the business and the challenges and why we need the money. And she looked at me and said, Have you ever thought of just slowing down? No, no.
Nick Wagner:And I remember looking at my account manager and I kind of bit my tongue for a second and I said, You know what? Get out. I said, You don't understand anything about what's going on here. I said, You need to leave. And at that point it was Marcus saying, well, you know, my brother knows this guy Adrian at Scotia.
Nick Wagner:And we interviewed with Adrian and here was this young, aggressive banker, right? Who wanted to make things happen, who wanted to go to bat for us and be our advocate in the bank, right? And it was like, this is what we need. If you're going to work with us, you're going to have to live and die with us. You're going to have to treat it like it's your company.
Nick Wagner:You're going to have to commit to doing this, right? Because we don't have room for people that aren't all in and that served us well. I mean, we were very upfront, I think, our key service providers that you are coming into the inner circle and that's that. Yeah.
Don Cameron:And that's an important part of it is you need to learn our business and our culture and what makes it tick. After that, apply your skill, but don't come the other way along. If you don't understand our business, like the RBC banker is a good example of doing it the wrong way. Yeah. So you found Adrian to be that kind of banker.
Don Cameron:Absolutely. He cared first, didn't he? That's what I've noticed with him.
Nick Wagner:A %. And I, Yeah. You know, it's funny, we, I think we convince ourselves in business that that's a rare thing. I actually think there's lots of it out there. It's just that finding the connection with someone.
Nick Wagner:Again, I used to have a saying with customers when we would interview new customers or present to new customers and I'd say to them, you know, listen, if I can't picture having a beer with you, odds are we're not going to do a lot of business together because you're not going to get me, I'm not going to get you. And it's just not going to be all that it can be. And I think most business relationships start that way where, it's a decent fit and this could be good. And maybe it is some degree of good for an extended period of time. But when you get that right personal connection, all of a sudden it's like, this can be way more.
Nick Wagner:We can help each other. We can make this whole thing go faster. And that was 100% that was Adrian. From
Don Cameron:the first time I met Nick, I could tell what an authentic personable guy he was. He loves people and he's good to them. Nick's approach to relationships has been a key pillar in the success of his business strategies. We touched on it a bit with his partnership with Marcus, and we heard it again when he talked about setting his team up for success. Finding a fit in your hiring is incredibly important.
Don Cameron:Simply hiring based on skill won't result in a strong team. Shared values and enabling your team to do their best is critical. His care for building and nurturing connections doesn't end at his internal team. Nick just spoke about the importance of making the customers feel cared for. Clearly, he did a great job because he convinced Gary Pounder, a former customer, to join the team.
Don Cameron:But it doesn't end there. A lot of Nick's success in solidifying his place in the market can be attributed to his relationships with suppliers.
Nick Wagner:When we got started, we found a factory that we liked. We had been researching for months before we actually started doing business. Then we found one particular factory where I kind of hit it off with the account manager, whoever over in China. And he knew we weren't even a business yet, that we weren't anything. Right.
Nick Wagner:But his personality was such that he was happy to invest time and get to know me. And they ended up becoming our biggest supplier for many, many years. And various staff at that company became good personal friends of ours.
Don Cameron:Same thing, part of the family, Yep.
Nick Wagner:Yep. And there were times when we were in trouble and we needed them to work a miracle and they always did. And there were times where they really needed us to do something, take a delivery of something, order a little extra of something. And if it was important enough for them to ask, it was important enough for us to do it. And so that really became our style.
Nick Wagner:And actually, I never really thought of it that way. That really is the theme through the whole company is- Yep. That it's just very personal, that everything matters on both sides of the equation. We found that over the course of the years, we talked to some of our competitors of similar size and we'd say, How many factories do you deal with? They'd be like, 30.
Nick Wagner:They'd be like, How many do you deal with? And we'd be like, Five. It's like, we'd be like, What are we doing wrong? And then what we found out is that we were doing it right. You know, we were trying to have our factories be successful with the idea that if they were successful, they'd be a better supplier to us.
Nick Wagner:And I believe that. It's the same thing with customers, you know. You need your suppliers to make money and you need your customers to make money so that they can stay as your suppliers and as your customers.
Don Cameron:I even noticed that during COVID because you did get a lot of concessions and accommodations and whatnot from the factories, which gave you that advantage during COVID that you had stuff that you could actually deliver because you'd had that historical relationship. So there's a good example too, of when problems arise, the serendipity is of the relationship that you built before that.
Nick Wagner:It really was amazing how quickly people were willing to help us, even though they were going through difficult times too. Yeah. You know, and it is funny too, because I think in this day and age, you know, we all think about technology and with AI coming on and so many different ways to interact with your customer without a live human being. Right? Yeah.
Nick Wagner:And yet I look back at us building a very successful business and everything we're talking about goes back to person to person things. Yep. Right. We're not sitting here talking about our website. It was a great website.
Nick Wagner:Our ERP system, which was a wonderful ERP system, but we don't talk about it as a cause of our success. Right? Yep. We talk about it as a tool we used.
Don Cameron:Yeah, was the catalyst to make you more successful because it combined and connected everybody who made the success.
Nick Wagner:Exactly. But it still always comes back to, you know, that time we went out for dinner with someone or that time we went to a hockey game or that time that guy was in trouble and called us and said, Hey, I really screwed up on a job. And we'd be there and help him out. Right? It is funny how we think business has changed so much, but really only certain parts of it has changed.
Don Cameron:Yeah. And you feel that's going to continue. That's not something that's on its way out.
Nick Wagner:It was funny when times are tough, you kind of see the reality a bit more clearly, right? Yeah. Again, another saying I always had was, you know, all other things being equal, people buy from who they like.
Don Cameron:Even with a great team behind you, a firm foundation and shared values, there are still bound to be learning opportunities in any business. The success they saw from their approach had delayed the inevitable for a few years. But while they aren't the only things that matter, numbers and finances do serve as an important piece of the puzzle. This is a lesson Nick and Marcus learned a few years into premise.
Nick Wagner:We sort of realized we were coming up on a double down moment where we were either going to have to borrow a lot more money so that we could get a lot bigger. Or we were going to have to look at an exit. But again, Marcus and I, at that point, we didn't want partners. We didn't want anybody to tell us how to do what we already knew how to do. We had really gotten our business into a groove where it was performing and we didn't want to disrupt that.
Nick Wagner:But by the same token, we hadn't really made a ton of money yet. And so the idea of going many millions of dollars further into debt was a challenging thing for us. We went to Adrian and sort of said, you know, we might have to borrow a lot more money, but we're also thinking maybe maybe we'll sell. And he kind of looked at our books and said, Guys, you're not ready for either of those things. Yeah.
Nick Wagner:We're like, What do you mean? We're this great profitable company. He's like, Yeah, but you're a mess. Your books, like we just never paid attention to that. We were sort of a company that ran without math.
Nick Wagner:We, of course we did math. We calculated, you know, payroll, we set our pricing and all that, but we never really dug into it because every month there was a bit more money than there was the month before. Right. And all our bills were paid. So we're like, ah, profit, let's keep going.
Nick Wagner:And if you're just gonna keep doing what you're doing, I guess it's not such a big deal. But when you start contemplating a big change, like reinvestment or selling, all of a sudden it matters completely. And so our banker said, Guys, enough's enough. You need a CFO. I said, A CFO.
Nick Wagner:Okay, a CFO. So like a fancy accountant. I get it. We've got an accountant, but now we're gonna get a fancy accountant because I have no idea what a CFO does.
Don Cameron:This is actually the first time I met Nick. He had come to me when I was working as a fractional CFO to get their books in order. His banker Adrian, who I'd worked with before, astutely said that the finance function was now an important need for their future success and suggested they call me. Turns out they caught this just in time. While they had a finance team in place, the business itself had outpaced their experience and capacities.
Don Cameron:I joined the team and within nine months, we trained them up and installed a next level financial and business operations system. This enabled us to treat every month end like a year end and to forecast all of the businesses' needs accurately and quickly. This fostered further growth and proved invaluable during the COVID-nineteen pandemic and then ultimately in the sale of the business. That said, what was most crucial to their success was the attitude. They went into the situation recognizing it was a weak spot for them, and instead of getting hung up on being stubborn, Nick came through to the other side more knowledgeable.
Don Cameron:His willingness to learn, listen to others, and his decisiveness makes Nick a good businessman. And he's proof that you can be successful without sacrificing your values at any point along the way.
Nick Wagner:I thought it was about just cleaning up our books, like fixing our ledger, but then realizing it is so much more than that. It's amazing how far you can go. You know, we were at basically a $25,000,000 company, spitting out a good amount of profit, but not really understanding where the profit came from and what things ate into it and what things could be improved and what things are sort of immovable objects. Amazing. That was a real turning point for us.
Nick Wagner:At that point, we kind of knew we're probably going to sell.
Don Cameron:You've heard me talk about serendipity. Oh yeah. It sounds like there's lots of serendipities that you see along your path.
Nick Wagner:Yeah. You look back and you're like, Jesus, that's how could all of that happen that way? Yeah. Right? Yeah.
Nick Wagner:We got so many good breaks and there was a point where the, you know, again, we'd always say to ourselves, if we hit something, challenging period or we'd say, it'll always work out. It always works out for us. Something will happen. It'll Because
Don Cameron:if you're far enough along, that's what happens. Yeah.
Nick Wagner:Yeah. And I think, I think the fact that we were always proactive, we were always ahead of the curve in terms of reinvesting in the company and, you know, we never really took a lot of money out, that the company was healthy and pliable and the people we brought in were talented and nimble. And that just created a situation where we could trust it. Yep. Right.
Nick Wagner:We could just trust it. Something good would happen.
Don Cameron:To me, Nick is both fearless and humble. So I'm not surprised when he chalks some of his success up to luck. From my vantage point, sure, they had good fortune, but it was their pattern of wise decision making that put them in the right places at the right times.
Nick Wagner:Business karma, right? I got to tell you, I do believe that that's what happens that, you know, our customers, we showed them how good we were, right? Yeah. We used to love it when people would come to us with problems because a customer's problem is an opportunity. Yeah.
Nick Wagner:You've got a chance to be their savior. And I loved that. And then we taught our staff to do that. The flaw in almost every business out there that I've seen, and I've worked for enough and been involved with enough is that they all talk the talk. They all say these things.
Nick Wagner:Yeah. They have mission statements and all these things, except when the rubber meets the road and it gets hard. And we had to face that a couple of times early in our business where Marcus and I had to look at each other and say, okay, are we going to eat this loss to do the right thing? And I guess the first time we said, yes, we're gonna. It went well for us.
Nick Wagner:And we got a lot more business out of that customer. And then we
Don Cameron:went, Oh, wait, maybe this works.
Nick Wagner:This is actually how it works. Yeah.
Don Cameron:For a guy who hasn't been in school since he was a teenager, Nick has never tired of learning new lessons which inform his decisions. And so it came to be that he knew selling his company was the right but still painful decision.
Nick Wagner:When you make the decision to sell the company, there's initially the emotional part of it, which is a lot trickier than you think it's going to be. Now, it's not just you stopping, but it's the company continuing without you. It is something if you've never been through it, no matter what you think, you are not prepared. You are just not prepared.
Don Cameron:Despite the difficulty of letting go, Nick found solace in watching the success of a team he spent so much time nurturing and growing.
Nick Wagner:I had the heads of other lighting companies trying to call me. Yeah. Saying, I'll hire your staff. It's almost like a proud father moment, right? You see the staff you've trained, most of them who had never worked in lighting before they came to us, than a handful, get snapped up and offer great jobs where they're going to be looked at as a high performer, a new great asset in their company.
Nick Wagner:So that for me made me very proud.
Don Cameron:Yeah. I mean, that's a success over and above the dollars and cents of it all at the end of the day, for sure.
Nick Wagner:Yeah, absolutely.
Don Cameron:As he ponders his path to success, Nick is happy to share his experience and insight with anyone who might be considering a similar trek. His first piece of advice, always be open to learning.
Nick Wagner:The ability to be honest with yourself about your skills, about your product, your services, the ability to really be frank with yourself, I think is absolutely critical. You should be your harshest critic, but you should also be quick to forgive yourself.
Don Cameron:Next is putting people and real relationships above everything else.
Nick Wagner:I used to have a saying in the office that said, if I don't hear raucous laughter by 10AM somewhere in the office, I'm going to come out and dance like a monkey until people laugh and that's fun.
Don Cameron:We're to make it happen.
Nick Wagner:We're going to make it happen. Going to a place every day that is fun and enjoyable, where you feel safe and valued is critical. Right? I mean, in the beginning with a small business, it's you and maybe you can get it up off the ground, but eventually you're going to need a team. Yep.
Nick Wagner:And they're going to have to want to share in your success. My point would be, be honest, be happy and be fun, be fair and be generous when you do start making money. We always paid, I think, well above market rate and tried to reward our people, not just with money, but with many other things. I think you have to do those types of things.
Don Cameron:And finally, and not surprisingly, Nick suggests you find a good partner.
Nick Wagner:I'd say that if you're going to find one, make sure you can trust them with your life.
Don Cameron:Having played a small role in this story, I must say I'm very proud to share Nick's journey with you. People start businesses for all sorts of reasons, but they all have different measures of success. For Nick, yes, it was about making a living, which he definitely did, and then some. But it was also about working with people, getting to know them, and learning important lessons from everyone he encountered. Keeping staff and customers happy while sticking to your guns is not always easy.
Don Cameron:But Nick Wagner proved it can be done, and I hope you found his story as inspiring as I did. Thanks again to Nick for being on the show and to you for listening to A CFO's Diary Pathways to Growth. You can follow and learn more about this podcast at savvycfo.cpa or wherever you get your podcasts. Also make sure to rate and review. I'm Don Cameron, and I hope our pathways cross again.