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The Pilot Project Podcast is an aviation podcast that aims to help new pilots learn what it takes to succeed in the world of flight, to help people in the flight training system learn what they may want to fly, and to give Canadians and the world a peek into life on the flight deck in the RCAF. We want to help pilots succeed and thrive! We interview real RCAF pilots for their exciting stories as well as the lessons they've learned along the way. We'll learn their tips to develop resilience and the tools it takes to make it in flight training.
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Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and mission aviation pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. And with me today for a special series to mark International Women's Day and Women of Aviation Worldwide Week is CC one thirty j Hercules pilot, major Sam Baim. Sam, thanks so much for joining us today.
Sam:Thanks, Brian. A big fan of the podcast, so I'm happy to be here.
Bryan:Yeah. I'm glad you're here. In today's episode, we'll be exploring her unexpected start in the Royal Canadian Navy as a Mars officer, now called naval warfare officer, her transfer to the RCAF, and the road through flight training that led her to the Hercules. We'll also talk about what it was like to be the only female j model pilot in the RCAF during a big chunk of her career. But before we go into any of that, let's go through Sam's bio.
Bryan:Major Sam Baim joined the Canadian Armed Forces in 2007 under the regular officer training plan through the civilian university stream. Although she successfully completed aircrew selection in 2006, the pilot trade was unfortunately closed at the time and she was enrolled initially as a Mars officer, now known as naval warfare officer. In 2015, she successfully transferred to the RCAF and completed her wings qualification in 2017. Sam was posted to four three six transport squadron to fly the CC one thirty j Hercules where she spent the entirety of her flying career to date at both the captain and major rank. She deployed numerous times to various theaters of operations such as Europe for four op reassurance deployments, including as air task force commander, as well as an open skies deployment in Bosnia, The Middle East for two op impact deployments, as well as for op Aegis, and Africa for two op presence deployments, including as tactical airlift attachment commander.
Bryan:Notably, Sam commanded the first mission to evacuate personnel in the twenty twenty one Kabul noncombatant evacuation operation for Op Aegis. Sam participated in numerous exercises domestically and abroad including CruiseX in Natal, Brazil in 2018 and multiple green flag, storm flag exercises in conjunction with the United States Air Force and eighty second Airborne Division. She is also a member of Elevate Aviation, a nonprofit organization aimed at advancing the success of women and underrepresented groups in the aviation industry through partnership and mentorship. Beyond aviation, Sam has been a member of the CAF International Women's Soccer Team since 2007, competing in multiple international military soccer tournaments, including the two thousand eleven World Military Games in Rio De Janeiro, Brazil before transitioning from a player to the coaching staff in 2020. She is currently attending the joint command and staff program at the Canadian Forces College in Toronto and will be posted back to eight Wing Trenton following completion of the program next summer.
Bryan:At home, she is supported by her service spouse of eight years, Mary Lou, and has a two year old daughter and an 11 year old stepson who she hopes will also develop a passion for aviation. So let's talk about your early days Before the military and before ROTP or the regular officer training plan, what first sparked your interest in aviation?
Sam:So it's interesting because I wasn't really a child that grew up dreaming about being a pilot. I remember as a young kid, I think what probably first sparked my interest in flight in general was going to hot air balloon festivals with my grandparents. I always found that really awe inspiring just watching the different balloons as a young child, like taking up and, you know, floating in the air. But I never really had, you know, that burning desire growing up where I saw myself in the cockpit. And there was no particular dream of, you know, I'm going to be a jet pilot, I'm going to fly big air mobility planes.
Sam:I didn't really have an idol or an icon that I looked to in that space. It wasn't until I started looking at joining the military that I really decided that pilot might be a cool thing to do.
Bryan:Really? That's interesting. That's a pretty unique inspiration. Like, I've never had someone come on and talk about hot air balloons. And actually, that's kind of funny because when you said that, totally, like, sparked a ton of memories of when I was a kid.
Bryan:And like, as a kid, when you happen upon like, it sounds like you were actually going to some of these, but I can remember sometimes by chance, like, holy cow, there's like 50 balloons in the air. And it's just something like really, really cool about seeing that.
Sam:Yeah, and really reflecting on that. Again, I wouldn't have associated that with a desire to get into a career of aviation until later in life. Now in my career, I started thinking about, oh, I wonder if there was something from a young age that really sparked that interest. And that's really the only conclusion I can draw from that really young, you know, five, six year old Sam watching hotter balloons in the sky.
Bryan:That's really cool. Growing up, did you see women in military aviation or, like, in aviation in general? Or did you feel like you were stepping into something you hadn't really seen much of before?
Sam:Truthfully, I didn't think much about it. Yeah. Even when I was joining, I wasn't really looking at, Oh, what's the demographic of the military? What's going on? I never did cadets.
Sam:I didn't do air cadets. So it really wasn't until I had my foot in the door in the forces then obviously, as highlighted in my bio, I started in the Navy that I really started to see the sort of difference in representation between the genders, let's say.
Bryan:Mhmm. Once you started noticing like the levels of representation, did you think much of it or was it just like, oh, I guess that, you know, this is a male dominated world and that's just sort of how it is? Or did you think much about that kind of thing?
Sam:I think at first, that was kind of what I thought. I had the, you know, preconceived perception that, operational trades were probably going to be male dominated just because of gender norms and stereotypes and whatnot. It wasn't until later on when I really started to reflect on what were really the barriers to accessibility, let's say, for these types of jobs or operational functions that women were facing.
Bryan:Yeah. And, you know, eventually we're gonna talk about some of that, I imagine, with some of your advocacy work, which I'm really looking forward to. You mentioned that when you joined the CAF, under ROTP, that that's when you started thinking about becoming a pilot. Were there any other trades that you were interested at that time, or were you pretty hard set? Like, I think I'll be a pilot or probably nothing?
Sam:Yeah, I think the standard went to the recruiting office and was told I needed to pick three things. Truthfully, I can't remember what the other two really were. I think I had pilots, nav, and intelligence officer for some random reason. But I think once I started down the path of joining, my heart was really set on getting into pilot just because I thought that it was a cool thing to do.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. It's funny reflecting back on my own top three. I know pilot was number one, and I think my other two were combat arms. Like, I know artillery was one of them, and I can't remember what the other one was.
Bryan:It's definitely a reflection of, like, the times with Afghanistan going on because, like, anyone who knows me knows it's a really good thing I did not end up in the combat arms because I'm not built for that. So you ended up going to aircrew selection in 2006, but then you found out the pilot trade was closed. What did that feel like at the time?
Sam:It was a little disheartening, obviously, because at that time, we were still doing CAPS, for the selection. It was quite difficult to get through.
Bryan:Sorry. Can you explain what CAPS is?
Sam:Yeah. So that was the Canadian automated pilot selection system. It was the computerized simulator that we had to fly, to basically go through selection. And it rated you on a, hands and feet, competency level, I believe. Less of like from a flying skill perspective and more just, Could you meet the threshold of increasing difficulty with the tasks that were given in it?
Sam:And failure rate was quite high at selection at the time. So I think once or I was told it was. So once I was successful doing that, I really thought that I was a shoo in to get what I wanted. So I was coming on a high and then had the rug pulled out from me a little bit when I was told by the recruiting office that, that wasn't gonna be an option for enrollment.
Bryan:Yeah. So did you like you got through air crew, they tell you like, hey, you passed for pilot. That's awesome. Congratulations. Did you go through like all the medical testing at DRDC and all that stuff?
Sam:Yeah, absolutely. Because we did that pretty much back to back. So once you passed your career selection in Trenton, you were put on a bus straight to DRDC, did all of that medical was all good to go. So again, I was pretty confident at that time that, you know, that vision was going to become a reality. And then the rug kind of got pulled out for me right to as I was about to enroll.
Bryan:Yeah, I imagine that must have been really difficult. Joined actually, I swore in in 2006. So right around that time, I must have been one of the last ones that kind of squeaked in before they closed the trade. And it was like rapid fire. It was like, alright, air crew selection.
Bryan:Yep. You passed. Okay. Straight to the medical. Yep.
Bryan:You passed. From there, you feel like you're basically a shoe in. I got the job offer after a couple months and and I was in like a month later. So, you know, what how did you deal with that? Like what how did you approach that?
Bryan:You know, finding out that this wasn't happening at least at that point?
Sam:It was disappointing, like I said. The other sort of thing that was going on at the same time was I had been accepted to universities with a sports scholarship as well. We talked before this. Sport was obviously a big part of my life growing up and actually led me to joining the CAF in some ways. But I was going to go to university and play soccer.
Sam:I obviously wanted to go straight to university out of high school. So my options became pretty limited in terms of I needed to accept a trade to get my foot in the door, or I would have had to delay another year and, you know, reapply, for the following year's ROTP program or start school on my own dime and then try to pick up, mid university.
Bryan:Yeah. Which is pretty intimidating. I actually was lucky enough to I did my first year on my own. Well, I shouldn't say on my own. My parents helped me pay for it.
Bryan:But, then got picked up. But that's like not a sure thing. Like, I feel like it's a much easier route in to get in from the get go and be in the military and start your university. So, as we mentioned in your bio, you ended up enrolling as a Mars officer, which is now known as a naval warfare officer. You know, how was that pivot mentally to switch from the idea of, like, I'm gonna join as a pilot to now you're an officer in the navy?
Sam:It was interesting. Like I said, the in my three choices, obviously, none of those were Navy. The Navy was wasn't really ever on my radar, to join. I didn't really look into any of the trades. And it's funny, you mentioned it in the outline that you sent, but I was really sold if you want to use sold as the term on picking that trade because I was told that it was the pilot of the sea.
Sam:And there was a lot of talk about how, you know, once you get your foot in the door in the military, it's super easy to switch trades. You just got to like get in and get a service number and get your basic training done. Then you'll be able to transfer no problem. But I think you're really going to like Mars because it's the same thing as Pilot except a ship, not a plane. So I bought off on that more than one reason.
Sam:But yeah, Pilot was still I was from the get go, I was still determined to get that that trade transfer and, you know, see that dream all through.
Bryan:Yeah. And we'll hear about how easy it was or not to switch. But it's funny just for the listeners, the reason she kinda sounds amused about saying, like, oh, it's the pilot of the sea is in brackets after I asked that question on the outline I wrote, I've heard some people get sold on this by being told it's like the pilot of the ship. Because I was curious, like, okay, is that really something they tell people? Did you find as you caught like, you only did we'll get into the training you did.
Bryan:You had pretty limited experience as a Mars officer, but did you find that was true, or did you not really think it was like a a very good analogy?
Sam:I mean, I understand why they said that. I think you can draw parallels between the skill sets of the two. Obviously, vastly different in, you know, the scope responsibilities, the operational environment, the list goes on. But I think from a, you know, operational and leadership perspective, there are similarities.
Bryan:Yeah. So you ended up, completing the naval environmental training program or NETP and the Mars three courses. Could you just tell us a little bit kind of of what those involved?
Sam:Yeah. So the training, has changed quite a bit since I went through, obviously, in the, you know, 2011 to, well, the early twenty tens time frame. So it looks a little bit different now. But back in the day, your NATPO was basically your Navy 101. So you learned about Navy history, naval language because they have their own words for things just to confuse everybody.
Sam:Basic naval stewardship. We did damage control school so fire, flood, that type of stuff. And then when we move into Mars three, that was more of your basic bridge watch keeping, sub navigation, day sale type of activities. So moving more towards into the actual operational roles or skills that would be employed by Mars officer, now NWO.
Bryan:Yeah. You talked about damage control with, like, fire and floods and stuff. Like, what's that training like? Is it pretty intense?
Sam:It was a lot of fun, actually. Yeah. And, I mean, we had soup at 10AM every day, so that made it even better. But no, the damage control school in the Squamalts, you know, it's state of the art. They actually use it for astronaut selection as well just because of its capabilities.
Sam:You you are fighting live fires. You are, you know, waist deep in floodwater. So it's it's not just, you know, playing the game and imagining it in your head. You're actually immersed into those, environments, which makes it a little bit more real from a training perspective.
Bryan:Yeah. That sounds kind of like an adventure, to be honest. Like, you know, you're in a controlled environment, so it kind of sounds like exciting and and maybe a little fun to take on that challenge.
Sam:Yeah. It was a lot of fun. It was probably one of my, more favorite memories of, the training system is getting to do that.
Bryan:That's really cool. It actually, it all sounds kind of interesting, even like the bridge watch keeping and all that stuff. How did you feel about it after doing those courses? Like, were you starting to feel like maybe this is a decent fit, or were you like, I I gotta get to pilot as soon as I can?
Sam:I I think in retrospect, I wish I would have given it more of a chance. Like I said, I was pretty closed off, I would say, in my approach towards it just because it wasn't what I wanted to do at the time. So, you know, and, hindsight's twentytwenty. But I think I wish that I would have been more present and engaged in the skills that I was learning. Not to say that I didn't take it seriously because it was still my occupation at the time.
Sam:But I do wish that I would have given it a little bit more of a chance because the the skill sets I mean, planes obviously operate in a much faster environment than ships do. But the skills, that you use on the bridge, do translate to what we we do see in the cockpit. So.
Bryan:Yeah. And then you mentioned something that I just wanna quickly highlight for the listeners. You mentioned one of the great things about the Navy is they have an extra meal in the day called, soup every day at ten where you get to have hot soup. So I imagine that was pretty sweet.
Sam:Definitely one of the perks of Yeah. Being in the Navy.
Bryan:Yeah. So this interview is partly about women in aviation, but what was the representation like in the Navy and what was it like serving in the Navy as a woman?
Sam:So I remember showing up to Venture, which is the Naval Officer Training Center in Squamold. And at the time, think there were about eight or nine females going through training out of however many officers in total there were and thinking, Oh, wow, there's not many women here. And it was around the same time that women had just been allowed to serve on subs. And so there was a lot of of inclusivity expansion, I would say, happening within that environment. That was the last, I believe, operational trade that women were sort of excluded from up until that point.
Sam:So that was a big win for that. But no, I didn't find much of a difference other than we were, you know, outnumbered. Mhmm. Which is funny because then when I went to the Air Force, obviously, it was even, you know, more marginalized, let's say. So Yeah.
Sam:In retrospect, I was like, oh, actually, Navy had pretty good representation.
Bryan:Yeah. It's funny. I don't know why, but I seem to recall at basic training that a lot of the women in our platoon were navy. It seems like for some reason, the navy has more appeal to women in some way. I don't know if that's still true or or maybe it was just chance at that time.
Bryan:But it seemed like a lot of the people who are even in what we call purple trades, which means that trade can be in, like, army, navy, or air force seem to often gravitate towards the navy.
Sam:Yeah. Not to sound simplistic, but, I mean, the navy does have the nicest of the uniforms. So if I was purple, that might be a a winning future, for me.
Bryan:But Yeah. That's fair. Good uniforms, long, interesting, history with traditions and stuff. So so how challenging was the transfer process from the Navy to the Air Force in 2015 once you actually managed to get that rolling? I'm guessing some listeners may be interested in perhaps pursuing this one day.
Bryan:So can you walk us through the process in broad strokes?
Sam:Totally. I wouldn't necessarily recommend following my process for transferring just because I did it in a slightly unconventional way. When I was going through and I'm sure we'll talk about it later, I was also a member of CISM, the CAF International Women's Soccer Program, which bought me a little bit of time in the summers. Really, what I was trying to do was delaying getting to my occupational functional point, OFP, in the Navy because at the time it was easier to put in voluntary occupational transfer if you weren't qualified. And that was particularly true because, as you know, Pilot was closed and Mars was red at the time, so they were already short people.
Sam:So it was a difficult space to sort of navigate trying to get into a trade that had too many people from a trade that didn't have enough people. So getting out was quite hard. From a process perspective, it's really just about putting in the application. I had supporting letters of recommendation. I sought out OJT opportunities that would sort of help augment that application to say, Yeah, I would be suitable to work in an air operations environment.
Sam:But other than that, it was really just about being patient and waiting for that sort of window of opportunity to present itself to be able to get those application processes in.
Bryan:How long was the process from flash to bang? By the time you put in your application and how long did it take to find out that you were actually going to get the voluntary occupational transfer?
Sam:I would say it took just over a year. Okay. Between the window opening, getting the applications in, doing my interviews because I had to re interview for the application process itself. There was some confusion. They actually sent me back to Trenton to redo aircrew selection, which I obviously didn't need to do.
Sam:And then sent me to Toronto to redo the DRDC portion, which I didn't need to do. So basically just got a trip to Ontario from BC, which was nice because I'm from Ontario.
Bryan:DRDC stands for Defense Research and Development Canada. It's a facility in Toronto. And at least at the time when Sam and I were going through aircrew selection, it is where all aircrew who passed aircrew selection went for their medical screening. I'm not sure if that's still the case, but that is how it was back then.
Sam:But, yeah, it wasn't necessarily difficult from any of that perspective. It was really just the patience of, trusting the process and waiting for, the decision.
Bryan:Yeah. And I guess you would have had to wait, like, to start this until the trade opened back up?
Sam:Yeah. Correct. So, I really didn't have that window until I put that application in. And I had had friends in the PSO, the personal selection office, who were, you know, sort of had an earmark out for it, because there were rumors for a couple of years that it was going to open back up just because the backlogs at the training system had sort of alleviated themselves and we were looking to bring in more people. So, again, was just waiting patiently, with that those papers in hand to slide them under the door once the window opened.
Bryan:Yeah. Because just for background for listeners, basically, at that time, there was all kinds of delays and bottlenecks happening in the training world. Like, they used to I was in OJT at Borden at the time with four hundred tactical helicopter squadron, the reserve squadron there. And at the time, they were still a, operational squadron. They're now a maintenance squadron.
Bryan:But I remember we'd be sitting in ops and you could check this tracker for, like, what course you're loaded onto to go to Moose Jaw. And they would do regularly every now and then every few months, they would do what was called zero loading the course where they'd put no one on it, and you'd find out you were delayed another three months, six months, seven months, whatever. So there was a ton of of stuff going on behind the scenes, and I guess that that stuff finally cleared up, and then you got your chance.
Sam:Yeah. Absolutely. And haven't looked back since, so it's been good.
Bryan:Awesome. So you did get into the air force. You got your transfer to pilot trade. You arrive in Portage La Prairie for phase one of the Grove. What did it feel like to finally be on the road to hopefully attaining your wings?
Sam:It was really validating just, you know, having waited so long to sort of have that, that dream at that point be realized. Like I said, I kind of put all of my eggs in the basket, in retrospect. Like I said, if I could go back, I probably would have done some things differently in the Navy, but I I was really dead set on getting that opportunity. So needed to make the most of it.
Bryan:Yeah. I mean, it's easy to look back and say, you know, I wish I had done this or that differently. Right? Like, you were we have a lot more you have more wisdom, you have more time. But I think, you know, especially when you're young and you're chasing that dream and you're so focused on it, it's really hard to like, if that's the dream and that's your goal and it takes a certain type of person to succeed in that career, I think, like, it's natural that the majority of your focus would have been on just achieving that.
Sam:Yeah. Absolutely. Definitely learned a lot about perseverance and resilience during that time. But, like I said, once once I was given that opportunity, that was, definitely something I was gonna, go all in on.
Bryan:Yeah. So we talked about the fact that you didn't go to air cadets or, anything of that nature. Before you started your flight training, had you done any flying had you had any flying experience, like, outside of being on airliners? Like, you did you gone up in a Cessna for an hour or anything like that?
Sam:No. I had no previous flight experience before, showing up to phase one.
Bryan:Okay. Cool. Because I love to talk to people who showed up with, like, literally nothing because that's what the course was designed for. Mhmm. So, you know, what was that like?
Bryan:What was it like when you went for your first flight with the RCAF, and and how did you find starting out as someone with no experience?
Sam:I think, you know, the the folks who showed up with the PPL is
Bryan:PPL is private pilot's license.
Sam:In the previous experience, if it was just, some exposure training, had a little bit more of an appreciation from the study perspective of aerodynamics and all of the things that we start to touch on in phase one that you later expand on in further on training. From a flying perspective, it was thrilling, honestly. The Grove is a pretty sweet little aircraft to have your first flight on. At the time, it was the the Mercedes of the trainers, you know.
Bryan:Yeah.
Sam:Even the folks who had been in Cessnas were obviously impressed by its capabilities. So Mhmm. Really cool opportunity to get to to fly that as my first aircraft.
Bryan:Oh, it's a it's quite an aircraft to start out on. Like, you know, I started out on a Katana, was the first airplane I flew. And, you know, I can't even remember the speeds or horsepower anymore. But, you know, vastly dwarfed by by the GROBE. Like, of course, you know, as you move on, you fly the Harvard, you fly operational aircraft, and they make the GROBE seem like nothing.
Bryan:But to start out on a GROBE, it's actually, you know, retractable gear and it's it's aerobatic. It's fairly fast and maneuverable. Like, that's quite an aircraft to start out on.
Sam:Yeah. For sure a lot of fun.
Bryan:Yeah. What fundamentals did the Grove phase drill into you that still matter today?
Sam:I think really just the focus on the, you know, the aviate, navigate, communicate and the core concepts of, you know, straight and level, the the foundations, the basics of aviation. Because when, you know, things are getting crazy in the cockpit or you know, you get it, you find yourself in a situation that you may not want to be in, really have to go back to the foundations of flying and create that sort of pause and space for yourself.
Bryan:Yeah. Aviate, navigate, communicate. For non, aviators out there, that's like the core of what you do at all times. Whether it's an emergency or just normal flying and things get busy, First, you aviate and make sure the aircraft is going where you want it to go and that you're flying it in control. Then you navigate, which means obviously you know where you're going and what's coming next.
Bryan:And then you take the time to communicate, talk on the radios, whatever it may be. And it's just such a like, it's like, you know, crawl, walk, run. It's like the same sort of thing. Like it's so basic that but you have to build that into a habit because when you first get exposed to this stuff and you get overwhelmed, like your instincts might not be you might be like, oh, I gotta talk on the radio. I gotta tell them what's going on.
Bryan:And meanwhile, like, you're descending without meaning to or or whatever might be happening. So, yeah, it's totally fundamental and essential. Phase two on the Harvard and Moose Jaw is where things get more intense. It's a super challenging course. What was your biggest hurdle there?
Sam:Phase two was a lot of fun for me, actually. I think that was really where I found my stride.
Bryan:Okay.
Sam:In pilot training, I agree that that is where people have typically the most challenges or find it the most intense, but I honestly had a really good time. I really enjoyed flying the aircraft. I had great instructors while I was there, and I felt comfortable in that environment. So I think the biggest hurdle, which most students feel, is just being prepared for the next two events in every phase of your flying because you never know what you're going to do. Towards the end of my flying, I was double turning quite a bit.
Sam:So based on the weather or who was available, it's like, Okay, I need to be ready for my next you know, two Clearhood missions or my next two IF missions or my next two form missions.
Bryan:Yeah. And for the listeners, IF is instrument flights, form is formation flights, and Clearhood is visual flights.
Sam:So really just being mentally prepared to switch on and off depending on what the, you know, the task of the day was and always, you know, thinking ahead and being ready for what's next.
Bryan:Yeah. Things get challenging once you start double turning or flying twice in a day. And like you said, the instructors want you ready for depending on the weather, you know, they want you ready for an instrument flight or or two instrument flights. They want you ready for two visual flights or clear head flights. I was double turning during the nav phase, so I had to have two maps and routes memorized and, you know, ready to go and prepped a day.
Bryan:And it gets to be a lot, but it is fun when you kind of hit that stride and you're getting really good, like, continuity in your training. And if you're doing well like, you're if you're struggling, I imagine that would be very, very stressful. But if it's going well for you, it's kinda just fun. Like, you go out and fly every day and do the course and it flies by.
Sam:Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, I I think that the instructors, you know, they know that too. Like, the expectation really isn't that you're double turning. So I think, you know, for those who need that extra little bit of not necessarily time in the cockpit, they're not double turning everyone for the sake of putting people in uncomfortable situations.
Sam:Striking that balance. The one thing I'll say is that with double turning, it went by super fast. And in retrospect, I wish I would have, you know, almost been a little bit more present and really enjoyed what was going on. Because, you know, once you leave that airframe, unless you go back to being an instructor there, that's it. So and like I said, I really enjoyed flying the aircraft.
Sam:Yeah. I'm at a point in my career now where I can say that without the threat of getting posted back there at an instructor tour. So it's safe space. But yeah, I guess really, my recommendation too is for people listening that are gonna go on training is, just taking the opportunity to be present and really appreciate, you know, the things that you're getting to do on a daily basis because it is, unique and it is special.
Bryan:Oh, man. If I could get one more flight in a Harvard, I'd be so happy. That's such a cool plane. And I totally echo your sentiments on it's so easy to become extremely focused on the course and passing and all the all that stuff, which makes sense. It's a it's a make or break course and you're working very hard and it's very important to you.
Bryan:But, man, like, you you have to try to take that time to enjoy it. Like, look outside every now and then and just be like, wow. Like, this is really cool. This is a beautiful view. This is an amazing plane.
Bryan:Like most pilots in Canada would like give almost anything just for a flight in a Harvard. And you get to go and do however many I don't know how many hours they get it now, but, you know, you get to fly this plane every day for months and months, and that's an amazing opportunity.
Sam:Yeah. Absolutely.
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Bryan:I found phase two went pretty smooth for me, but I still had to deal with, like, some self doubt, self induced pressure. Did you find you encountered much of that, on that course?
Sam:Maybe a little bit to start just when we were going through the academic phase and, you know, thinking as someone who didn't have any previous experience in flying, it is a pretty big leap going from the GROBE where you're handheld and they're basically like, Keep this plane straight and level and don't fall out of the sky. To then really being in control of the aircraft with a much greater performance than the GROBE, the things that you do with it from aerobatics, NAV into formation. So not too much, but definitely didn't take any of that for granted. And a lot of preparation went into it to make sure that I was prepared and ready to, you know, succeed in those environments.
Bryan:Mhmm. During Moose Jaw, were there many other women on your course or at the school at the time?
Sam:So on my course, I actually, I remember this pretty distinctly. I received my course loading from the career manager at the time, and it specifically said in it, Oh, there's two other women. We'll see how this goes, as if it was like a recipe for disaster that there were going to be three of us. But I think it was just indicative at the time that there weren't a lot of women going through. So I think we were the first course that had that amount of people.
Sam:And I mean, three of 21 is not a significant number, but it just goes to show how few women at the time and and even now, go through the the training system for Pilot.
Bryan:Yeah. I think there was, like, one per course or so around the time I was there. When I was there in 2010, Moose Jaw could have a bit of like a macho atmosphere. What was the atmosphere like there as a woman in 2016?
Sam:Yeah. Again, I I don't think it was certainly wasn't a toxic or a bad environment. I think the machoism is more a result of the type of personalities that typically are in trade. So I think there was a lot of type A or people who thought they were type A personalities, which kind of can come across as macho. But I didn't feel in any way isolated or discriminated against or treated any differently, just based on the fact that I was a woman there at the time.
Bryan:Awesome. Yeah. And I didn't really mean to imply necessarily like or to equate machoism with like toxic masculinity type thing. Just more that it was kind of like, I don't know how to explain it exactly. Like, I think you know what I mean.
Sam:I do. Yeah.
Bryan:It was just like a a go getter, male dominated space. And I was just kind of curious what that was like as a woman.
Sam:Yeah. And I think just based on, like, growing up in sport and being hyper competitive and sort of my life experiences up until that point, certainly the limited exposure that I had in the Navy was still, you know, experienced in that type of environment. So I didn't feel out of place or I didn't feel like there was much difference for me that might not be everyone's experience. But now I had I had a good time on phase two.
Bryan:Awesome. It was a comfortable environment for you.
Sam:Absolutely. Yeah.
Bryan:Great. So moving to phase three on the King Air, how did crew coordination and multi engine flying change your perspectives on aviation and flying?
Sam:Yeah. So the, the Herc was actually always my first choice. So I knew that I wanted to go back into a multi engine crew environment. I like working with people.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Sam:It was a little bit of a transition just because you get so comfortable. I mean, we have an instructor with us on phase two, but it's kind of, you know, the simulated, like, single pilot cockpit where you're kind of operating on your own and making decisions to now really having to focus on that crew management aspect of flying. Phase three was pretty heavy on that. And then ironically, most of the multi engine flying is actually single engine, especially in the simulator phase. So it's kind of a funny anecdote there.
Sam:But yeah, crew environment definitely It's not necessarily something that is natural or inherent, especially when you're looking at the clearly delineated roles and responsibilities of pilot flying, pilot monitoring. So, I had a and I had a really great course, really great coursemates, really great to phase three partner for the simulating and flying phase. So, it it worked out quite well. It was pretty natural.
Bryan:Yeah. I agree with what you said in terms of, like, that being it's kinda like a big thing to get used to, but then once you once you get used to it, it's like it's great. Like, I also wanted to fly multi engine. I wanted to fly in a as part of a team. So you get into that rhythm and you start working with this person, you get used to them and how it all works and how you fit together.
Bryan:And and then it's a great experience.
Sam:Yeah. It's just one of those things where at the beginning, you're like, I could do this myself because I'm thinking of it right now, but that's not my job. It's not part of my checklist. So are you gonna wait or, you know, make some, like, joking, passive aggressive comments to the guy you're flying with to to make sure they're doing it. But, yeah, once you once you work out those those relationships, it's a really great environment to be part of.
Bryan:Yeah. And aviation kind of involves a lot of moments like that. Like this is I think I know, but this isn't my time or, you know, if you're mentoring someone, letting them get it and figuring out when to speak or when to let them kind of do their thing. So it kind of like, it's a it's a moment of growth that that's going to keep serving you.
Sam:Yeah, for sure. And, you know, obviously, there's the, you know, the technical aspect of flying and the procedures and whatnot, but a lot of it is technique. And so people need to find their own way and their own comfort level and and whatnot in the cockpit. And, I mean, that's part of mentoring.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Would you say that operating in that multi career environment was the biggest learning curve, or was there anything else, like, on multi that you're like, oh, this is new. This is a big thing to to learn and to get around.
Sam:I think the combination of all of the things was a learning curve. There's nothing really that stands out distinctly as being more challenging than the other. You're kind of forced with figuring it all out at the same time to make it work, especially when you're still going through flight training. Obviously adding another engine adds complexity to the systems knowledge and the operation of the aircraft itself. And then while you're figuring that out, trying to figure out, like, whose responsibility is what, who needs to be working on on this, especially in emergencies.
Sam:Just, yeah, just finding the good flow of having, you know, that good cockpit management
Bryan:Mhmm.
Sam:As a team.
Bryan:Yeah. And then I guess there's the whole taking the airplane to different airports and going into the mountains and going to The States and all that all that new stuff. But it's it's sort of all, like, you know, it's step by step. Right?
Sam:Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, on phase two, I think the furthest we went was Saskatoon for the night. And then on phase three, you did the Canadian cross country and the American cross country. So definitely getting exposure there for which is obviously very relevant for a career in the air mobility community.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So you went through the course. You passed the course.
Bryan:What is it like for you when you marched up on parade and received your wings?
Sam:That was a really special day for me. Just because again, it really validated the fact that I had committed so much time in pursuing that as my career dream. I turned into that person who was a 2LT for I was that 2LT that was a 2LT for eight years or whatever I was. So it was a little bit of a running joke too, but it was really, like I said, really validating, really special, to finally hit that milestone in my career and then, you know, fresh start move forward, with something that I was actually passionate about.
Bryan:Yeah. Did you find on that day that there was anyone in particular that you felt grateful for, like on your journey?
Sam:Yeah, I had a really great support network. You know, all the way through, obviously my, my dad wasn't able to make it to the wings ceremony, but my mom was there, obviously, family support, as everyone in the calf knows is, you know, the backbone to being successful in this career. So I was really happy that she was able to be there. And just my peers and colleagues who turned into friends and brothers and sisters that I still talk to today and still have relationships with, the bonds that you form on that type of training and these type of environments is really special. So really just a big family collection of support networks that help enable you to reach your goals.
Bryan:Yeah. Going through those courses, they it really, really creates some very strong bonds with the people you go through those experiences with. It's such a time of, like, high stress and pressure and fun and, like, all these, like, big life experiences. So it definitely bonds you in a special way.
Sam:Mhmm.
Bryan:So I think this is really cool. You flew with the multi engine utility flight or MUF flight in Trenton before going to the Hercules operational training unit or OTU. I always thought that was a really neat thing. Basically, pilots, get a chance to if they're waiting to get trained on their operational aircraft, they fly a bigger King Air than they train on in Portage, and they get to do all these various flights. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about sort of what those flights tend to be and how important that transition year was for you.
Sam:Yeah. I was quite I was quite lucky, getting a spot there when I got to the squadron in, the 2017. There was about a year a year and a bit wait to to get onto the OTU. So I was employed gamefully at the squadron. I was doing scheduling at the time.
Sam:And then a spot opened up at the MUF. So I was able to fly there for about eight months leading into my OTU. And it was a really great opportunity to transition from the training environment to what operational flying was going to look like for the Air Force. Day to day flying, not anything significantly challenging. We're moving people from A to B or potentially a part for an MRP if it was hand carryable.
Sam:But a lot of it was flying out to Greenwood, picking up SAR crews to come out for simulator training in Trenton, moving VIPs or senior leadership from Ottawa or Winnipeg or whatnot, wherever they needed to go. Not great legs on that aircraft, but definitely capable in terms of short range transport like that. So actually, it's funny. I think Skye mentioned it in her episode, and I don't know if it's a rite of passage, but I think my first flight with the MUF was also flying the CDS. So looking back, I'm like, maybe they did that on purpose just to add that extra bit of challenge or experience to it.
Bryan:And for those who are curious, the CDS is the chief of defense staff, the highest ranking officer in the Canadian Armed Forces.
Sam:Yeah. Was really great. And it gives the gave the opportunity to, you know, work on the local flying procedures for the area. Less skill fade, waiting that long, like straight out of the OTU and then going or straight out of wings training, sorry, waiting for the OTU, just keeping that sort of hands and feet and basic, like aviation skill set, and airmanship, situational awareness, all all the foundational things that really free up that that brain space to focus on, you know, Herc specific things when I when I got into that cockpit.
Bryan:Yeah. Did you find that the MUF expose you to anything that, like, you don't encounter in an environment when it's purely training?
Sam:I think it's just the reality of, like, doing real things, you know, like having real people on board the training environment. You know, we're not flying passengers or whatnot. But when you're sitting in the left seat and you're flying and the weather is crappy, and the CDS is in the back, obviously, you want to have a good flight. So just those sort of like imposed pressures or perceived pressures, we could say of, you know, doing real missions versus being assessed.
Bryan:Yeah. And those perceived pressures, those are very real, right? Like, we we'd study them in human factors and in in, you know, incident, studies and stuff, when people when those pressures start to stack up and people make decisions that maybe they wouldn't normally. So it's kind of cool to get a little bit of early exposure in like a relatively safe environment to that.
Sam:Yeah. It was really great. It's a really great opportunity.
Bryan:Yeah. And Sam mentioned, Skye. That's Skye Simpson, who's another J model pilot. I love Skye. We went through training together.
Bryan:And, any listeners who haven't checked out her episode should definitely check it out. It's one of the, the early episodes from our our early time on the show. And for the curious out there, you can find that at episode 16. So when you started the Hercules OTU at four thirty six Squadron, what was your first impression of the J model Herc?
Sam:I'd have to say my first impression was that I was going to be very busy.
Bryan:Yeah.
Sam:I mean, the aircraft itself, like super powerful, very maneuverable for its size. That's one of the key factors of why it's such a workhorse for the CAF and how we employ it. It's super versatile. But with that, it's a lot of training. There's a lot of different skill sets, lot of different operational environments that we operate in, a lot of different tasks that we accomplish, whether it's the Strat flying things from A to B, or tactical flying, airdrop, airland, all that.
Sam:So there's a lot of currencies, a lot of skills that we need to pick up on the OTU on top of the basics of understanding your aircraft systems knowledge. It's a pretty advanced platform in terms of the avionics that are on it. So it was a busy OTU for me, but well worth it because it it's also a lot of fun.
Bryan:Yeah. And you folks don't have a flight engineer on the J model either. So it's really like all that's being managed by the pilots, upfront anyway.
Sam:Yeah. Absolutely. We typically, local flying, not so much. But when we're on the road, we'll take with us a tech crew member, which is a technician from the squadron who's trained to do on the road type of functions with the DRMIS and then
Bryan:Unfortunately, despite my best efforts, I can't find the actual meaning of the letters of the acronym DRMIS, but what it is is a deployed maintenance system that allows technicians and maintainers to service the plane and maintain the service records while on the road. At least that's the best of my recollections. Any maintainers, please feel free to chime in and let me know where I'm wrong.
Sam:Obviously, if there's a snag on the aircraft that, they're able to address, remotely, then they're able to do that or facilitate MRP repairs and whatnot.
Bryan:And MRP stands for mobile repair party and is when parts or technicians need to be flown in to fix a deployed aircraft.
Sam:So but not a dedicated FE. So all of that type of management, while it's taken on by, you know, systems like the FADEC and whatnot.
Bryan:FADEC is full authority digital engine control, and it's when computers basically monitor and manage all aspects of the engine and its performance.
Sam:It's still up to the pilots to be monitoring and managing those systems.
Bryan:Do you remember your first operational sortie on the Herc?
Sam:So operationally, I actually think one of the first ones that I did that's memorable anyway was CruiseX.
Bryan:Okay.
Sam:So we could talk a little bit about CruiseX now if you like.
Bryan:Yeah. Sure. Let's let's jump to that.
Sam:So CruiseX is the largest, multinational military air combat exercise in Latin America. It's hosted by the Brazilian Air Force, Started in 2002. Happens, I think, every other year. So I was fortunate enough to go there in November 2018. I had just come off the OTU in October 2018.
Sam:I had done maybe a couple of local trainers, one trainer or a training trip down to Laughlin in The States. But this was probably my first time really doing like Strat and then operational. I went down an ops officer, which is pretty typical for April fleet where a new FO is going to go on a major exercise and do an ops function. So map making, mission planning, all that coordination stuff, because it gives you that opportunity and experience of where we actually fit in the planning cycle, reading air tasking orders, so ATOs, airspace coordination orders, ACOs, and just in this environment, interoperating with a different military. So really great experience.
Sam:And then I was also able to to fly a couple of missions, which was pretty cool too.
Bryan:Yeah. And and learning how to read those, you mentioned it, ATOs and ACOs, they're they're basically it's like learning how to read computer code at first. Like, they're a totally different it's all shorthand. It's all block capitals. It takes some getting used to.
Bryan:So that's a that's a really good experience to have. Did you do any flying on that one?
Sam:I did. I did a couple, flights, during the exercise. So the mornings were typically part of a package, because we're doing a large force package. They have red air simulated in there too. Fighters often participate.
Sam:So we were obviously doing the sustainment airdrop portion of that flying interfly with the Brazilians. A few other countries that I can't remember so long ago now. So I did I was able to go on one of those missions. And then in the afternoons, it typically just a single ship professor sortie. So I was able to do one or two of those as well.
Sam:But a really unique experience, obviously flying in Brazilian airspace. That was my first time, you know, going oceanic to to somewhere else and flying in another airspace. So really learning the ins and outs and the considerations for that. And again, just working with with other countries, which we we do quite a bit of.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. I actually did a I can't remember if it was one or two week exchange in Brazil to fly with them on their p threes. Mhmm. Such a cool group of people.
Bryan:Super hospitable, beautiful country. It's one of those really amazing experiences that you can have in the RCAF when you get these chances to work with other countries and go to these places that, you know, you've never been to before. It's a really neat opportunity.
Sam:Yeah. Definitely worse places to spend, you know, two weeks on an exercise
Bryan:For sure.
Sam:With the air force.
Bryan:Yeah. So you have over twenty four hundred hours and have flown in 52 countries across five continents. Is there one arrival or departure somewhere in those 52 countries that you'll never forget?
Sam:Yeah. I wouldn't say that there's one in particular. I think if I had to, you know, pick one, I would say Kabul for, OpAges. I know we're gonna talk about that Yeah. A little bit later, so I won't I won't give that away.
Sam:But, I think what makes the Herc particularly unique is just the global reach of this aircraft and the different operating environments that we work in. Alert is another one. Just landing on the snow up in the highest, most northern inhabited place in the world is something that, you know, it's easy to take for granted because we do it on a weekly basis. But it's a pretty cool experience. Highly recommend to anyone who's able to get up there, if you're a calf, to go and get boots on ground up there to experience it.
Sam:The only other one that I would say was pretty interesting was there's a landing zone, an LZ, called Mande Bay in Kenya. And I remember reading the giant report, which is a colloquial term for a portion of the airfield suitability and runway report. And it said, Overfly the runway before landing to scare off the baboons, essentially. So it's like in the middle of the Reserve National Park pretty much of Kenya. So a lot of safari, let's say, animals were seen on the way in.
Sam:I think we saw giraffes and then obviously the baboons when we got there. So pretty, pretty interesting experience there.
Bryan:Wow. That must have been one of those approaches. Like, sometimes you go to a really cool place and you have to, like, extra focus on, like, actually flying because you just wanna look out the window and see the cool stuff.
Sam:Yeah. Absolutely. And it was a it's an LZ, so it's not like, you know, an international airport. It's really in the middle of nowhere, unpaved, short strip. It's actually not even wide enough for us to turn around on.
Sam:So we actually have to land and then reverse the duration of the runway to get back to where we need to go. So, really cool, spot to go into as a relatively junior FO when I went there. But, yeah, pretty memorable.
Bryan:Wow. And Sam mentioned LZ, that's landing zone, and she's just basically highlighting the difference between, like, you know, a landing zone being like a not a prepared, regularly used airport versus just sort of well, like you said, it's a big patch of level dirt basically. Right?
Sam:Yeah. Absolutely.
Bryan:So between 2019 and 2025, you were the only female pilot flying the CC one thirty j in the RCAF. When did that reality hit you?
Sam:So when I first got there, like you mentioned, Skye was there, and she was a really great role model, for me. It was kind of interesting because once she left, I didn't really think too much about it because I already, you know, I had already sort of established myself at the squadron. So it was kind of interesting because people would come up to me and be like, Oh, you're the only female in the RCF right now that's flying this platform. And I would think about it and be like, Oh, yeah, it's kind of cool. But it's also kind of sad in a way where we had talked about it previous to this interview.
Sam:And I verified the stats before coming on here because I didn't want to give badgen. But right now, it is only 6% of female pilots for the trade. So I think out of the fourteen sixty overall, there's only two at all ranks.
Bryan:Oh,
Sam:wow. So pretty, you know, small group of folks in this trade. So while, you know, it was kind of cool from one perspective to be like, Oh yeah, you know, you're the one and only, it just highlights, you know, the the need for us to, be visible and to advocate that, you know, this is a viable career option for, for women. Get them into the to the cockpit.
Bryan:Yeah. So when you realize that, it kind of, like, lit a fire to maybe advocate for for some more of a more equal representation in this trade?
Sam:I would say so. I think, you know, leading up to that, I was, you know, just finding my place myself. So I wasn't going to, you know, show up to the squadron and start kicking down doors or doing anything like that. Really needed to establish myself first. But I think as time moved on, and I started getting more involved in the advocacy, you know, it's finding for me, it's finding the balance because I don't want to be treated any differently.
Sam:Like, I don't like the term where people are like, Oh, you're a female pilot. I'm just a pilot, you know, I do the same training system to the same qualification standards as anyone else. But I think that language does matter in that sense, where if we're trying to highlight something from an empowerment or a recruiting perspective, then it's important. But I also don't want to use that language to diminish or like highlight variance in any way. Mhmm.
Sam:So just trying to strike the balance.
Bryan:Yeah. You know, and that's an interesting point to bring up right now because it kind of like lends itself almost into this this whole episode. Right? Like, we're here, like, talking about International Women's Day and Worldwide Women of Aviation Week. But you're also you're not just here because you're a woman.
Bryan:You're here because you are an experienced, highly trained professional pilot. So it is interesting when you you wanna highlight issues, you wanna discuss representation and things like that. But at the same time, it's not like that's all you are is a female pilot and, like, that's why you're on the show or that's why it's important. You know what I mean? It's it's a very interesting dichotomy.
Sam:Yeah. Absolutely. And that's why I said, like, the gendered language, it's important to you know, words matter. So don't want to use it to undermine the credibility. But like I said, it can also be empowering by signaling that representation, because visibility does matter.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Have you ever had to face assumptions about you in your profession because you are a woman?
Sam:I've had some funny run ins. You know, we fly a lot, outside of Canada. I've done a lot of flying in Africa and The Middle East. So there have been lots of times where, you know, I've been talking with a handler or getting off the plane and people are like, Oh, are you like the flight nurse? Or are you the whatever?
Sam:Like some very stereotypical, like gendered job. I'm like, No, I'm actually the aircraft commander. So if you want to get paid today, sorry, but you're going to have to deal with me type of a situation. But yeah, so some interesting ones like that. But I think you know, within the the RCF, I haven't really experienced too much of them.
Bryan:I'm very glad to hear that. When you encounter those things, how do you ensure your professionalism speaks louder than the assumptions these people make?
Sam:I think it's just, you know, taking your role seriously. Like I said, like, I'll often try to deescalate any tension with a little bit of a joke. Mhmm. But at the end of the day, like I said, like, as the aircraft commander, if I'm on the road, the plane and the crew, that's my responsibility. So the handler, whoever is going to have to deal with me in some capacity.
Sam:So really just maintaining that professionalism and not biting too much into the, you know, the gendered assumptions or anything like that.
Bryan:Yeah. Which I imagine there must be days where that's frustrating.
Sam:Yeah. For sure. But I think, overall, again, the more that, these people interact with female pilots or female crew members, the more it becomes normal, right? It's less of a shock to the system, I would say, when we show up and we land somewhere. It just becomes commonplace, which is really what we're hoping to get to where everyone, you're seen as competent or professional, irregardless of race, gender, sexuality, whatever, you're just there
Bryan:to do a job. Yeah. You're just seen as another pilot.
Sam:Yeah. Absolutely.
Bryan:Yeah. So as we get ready to close this episode, looking back at the closed pilot trade in 2006, what does your path to wings say about persistence and resilience?
Sam:I think that it's really, really important. You know, like I said, the fact that I was able to achieve wings and then moving into my career where I am now, I don't know that I would have envisioned that for myself early on in my career just based on how long I felt like it took for me to get my feet moving under me. But at the end of the day, I think it's really important that if there's something that you're passionate about or something that you want to pursue, then I think that it's worth doing. Even if at the end of the day it doesn't work out, you're better off having tried than to not do so. So I think that it was a really important, phase in my life.
Sam:Lots of lessons learned during that period, and it's only made me, you know, better off today, both as an individual and a leader in the CAF.
Bryan:Awesome. Okay, Sam. That is gonna do it for part one of our chat today. I really enjoyed hearing about your start in aviation, kind of hearing how you went from, you know, checking out hot air balloons to jumping into a grove with no flight experience. I think that was super cool.
Bryan:Also hearing about some of your adventures in the j model was awesome. In part two, we're going to shift to hearing about some of your, command opportunities such as being the aircraft commander for the first Canadian aircraft conducting evacuations in Kabul, leading air task forces, and shaping the future of women in aviation across the RCAF. So thank you so much for being here today. Sam is currently in staff college and is very busy, and she jumped on this opportunity last minute. So thank you so much.
Sam:Thanks, Ryan. Look forward to part two.
Bryan:Awesome. Alright. That wraps up part one of our chat with Sam. Tune in next week as we continue along on our journey through Sam's career, including the unique experience of being the first Canadian aircraft to take part evacuation of Kabul, some command opportunities she's had, as well as the advocacy work she does within the RCAF. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show?
Bryan:Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show? You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF and mission aviation aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts.
Bryan:That's all for now. Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you. Engineer, shut down all four.
Bryan:We're shutting down all four engines.