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“Words of Wisdom” is an initiative to document and celebrate the stories, insights, and wisdom of Singapore’s senior citizens. It's powered by Folklory, a service dedicated to preserving stories through audio podcasts, who will collaborate with 60 seniors aged 60 and above to create a series of 60 podcasts, each capturing a unique slice of Singapore’s rich history and culture. Find out more info at Folklory.com
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:04
Unknown
Hello there. This is Terence from folkloric. What? You're about to listen to a podcast from the Words of Wisdom project, where we spoke to 60 Singaporeans over the age of 64 as Ju 60 and captured their life lessons for the next generation. We hope you enjoy it.
00:00:24:06 - 00:00:54:07
Unknown
And we're here today to record this fuckery with Laurence. How we'd like to start this. Maybe for you, Laurence, to introduce yourself and tell us what you do. Sure. I'm Laurence, and I'm currently, in a career or second career of, counseling and executive coaching. But prior to that, I, spent almost 40 years in investment banking, private banking and corporate finance.
00:00:54:09 - 00:01:30:17
Unknown
I see, I see. So, maybe that's a good place that we can start, right? Since we we started talking a little bit about your career. Can you talk about how you got into finance in the first place? Like what was it that drove you to, to this industry? Well, I guess when I graduated, from, the University of Singapore, then, there are many options I can go to and end up in finance because one of my classmates, referred me to one of financial institutions.
00:01:30:19 - 00:01:57:20
Unknown
And then I applied, and I got a job, and then I stuck with it. Okay. But what was it? Was there anything that attracted you to do the field of finance, as opposed to any other place that had a job? Oh, I think it's interesting because this back in the, mid to late 70s. And financial, markets development, Singapore was, rapidly taking, route.
00:01:57:22 - 00:02:23:21
Unknown
And, these were the days where I think people wanted to get in there, although not many people had, clearly a full idea of what it is all about because it was quite new at that time. Okay. So I mean, starting out fresh in finance and, and understanding that, you know, it's a quite an intense industry to be part of.
00:02:23:23 - 00:02:51:15
Unknown
What were the, the early years in banking like for you? I think it's, a very good place to learn new things. And you suddenly realize, what I learned in business administration were very much theories. And when you actually hit the ground, doing your work in finance is quite different and is very fast paced.
00:02:51:17 - 00:03:20:02
Unknown
So my first job was in bond dealing. Okay. And I was doing trading and sales and, you know, whatever learned, from my university, course was inadequate, I thought. I see my boss is obviously, aware that, I had mentors, I had, colleagues who could help, and. Oh, so training that he sent me to.
00:03:20:04 - 00:03:42:10
Unknown
Well, what do you think was the, the missing link between, you know, what you learned as theory in, in school and what you actually had to apply in your first few years in the workplace. Well, I think when we studied in School of Finance, you know, those days research was not a big thing at universities.
00:03:42:12 - 00:04:17:07
Unknown
So often you have a time like, where you depend on your textbooks. It could be anything from three to 5 or 10 years old. And things have moved on. And when I look back in the 70s most of the major developments were coming out or out of New York in London. And there were a lot of finance professors in the US and UK as well, where they were coming up with a lot of new theories and putting, putting that into practice, for example options theory.
00:04:17:09 - 00:04:49:06
Unknown
Where do you find them in the 70s? And they started to move into Wall Street firms and put that into practice, what they have developed as theory into practice. And that totally changed the financial market forever. So true. So I mean, what what what do you think are the most important lessons that you learned? Working in finance for that many years?
00:04:49:08 - 00:05:17:14
Unknown
I think the important thing is a willingness to learn. Because there are so many new things. And, unfortunately, I guess in the financial markets, there's a lot of big egos around and a lot of people don't want to us or b b c nor, admit that they don't know enough. Okay. We just go very quietly and learn from other people.
00:05:17:16 - 00:05:45:00
Unknown
Friendly people and move along. So, I think I had started off in a Japanese organization where the structure was very good in that the bosses take all the responsibilities, and then you learn in whatever they ask you to do. So I had therefore and, space to learn without fear of making mistakes. That subsequently in other cultures was a bit different.
00:05:45:02 - 00:06:08:04
Unknown
If you go to a British or American firms, they expect you to know whatever they hire you for. And you just have to try and experiment and see how it goes. So, people were developing all sorts of theory, for example, trading all sorts of theory on how to raise money, and all sorts of theory.
00:06:08:06 - 00:06:30:10
Unknown
You never know until is put into practice. Of course, during the period I was in banking you get all kinds of scandals as well. You get, junk bonds and scandals that come out of it. You got options that people carry too far with people not knowing what they are. And people begin to learn from them.
00:06:30:12 - 00:07:03:17
Unknown
So, that carries on in different ways into crisis. For example, in the.com, crisis in the year 2000, you get, also in the global financial crisis and post Asian financial crisis earlier. A lot of them, structures that support new theories, but not everybody understand what it means. And they were just attracted by greed, how to make money.
00:07:03:19 - 00:07:31:16
Unknown
And people are willing to spend money and hire people to try and do those things, without fully understand the full consequences of what actions and the whole market is doing. I see. So was there a, a moment in your career where you felt the most inspired or like very excited about any particular thing that you were doing?
00:07:31:18 - 00:07:59:01
Unknown
Well, there was a period when I was very young, when you go into the 70s, into the 80s, where you get, attracted to, trying to make money, partly as a social conditioning that we all get brought up. Money means everything to us. And all my colleagues, myself are not excluded. Where do you all have this ambition to try and make $1 million at least a year?
00:07:59:03 - 00:08:25:06
Unknown
And people were willing to step over others to get up there. And so, while you're learning, you're also watching your backs as well from other people. Yeah. And greed became the from the 80s onwards, especially a big thing. And I think that's typified by you remember the film in 1987 called Wall Street. Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:25:08 - 00:08:51:00
Unknown
Gordon Gekko character. Is greed is good. So I mean, yeah, I think definitely a lot of, interesting stories and from, from those years working finance and all. But so what advice would you have for a young person who might be just starting out in this field of finance? What what advice would you give to them?
00:08:51:02 - 00:09:25:07
Unknown
Well, I think, understand the meaning of money or the hidden meaning of money helps. Start with whichever career you're going into. And, yes, of course people are attracted to the financial sector because generally it pays higher than most other sectors. Maybe the exception is it is this again, depends on what area. But a lot of people go in there beyond the necessity or meaning of getting security out of money.
00:09:25:09 - 00:10:03:06
Unknown
Or enjoyment, because you can use money to spend yourselves a family, but people get into the wrong idea of, wanting to have power, control over people and the things around you and most people with one status as well. And money, I suppose for a lot of people they think they can buy status. So keeping up with Joneses or going beyond the Joneses is the thing that people often get conditioned and in the fast moving sector, like the finance people usually get caught in that.
00:10:03:08 - 00:10:33:13
Unknown
Yeah. One is therefore, you know, sit back a bit and reflect and say, why am I in this? Why am I in this job? Are you just looking at a job to bring money back to provide for family and, enjoy that? Or are you going to build a career that will magnify your self esteem? And the sad part is people get drawn into it without knowing that.
00:10:33:15 - 00:11:07:11
Unknown
And and then they find themselves, losing the self esteem when they lose their jobs. Why you got into counseling was a couple of acquaintances who are in investment banking. They, took their lives. They, they died by suicide because they lost jobs to the banking license and so forth. And, so that's why I thought if I can help somebody to understand that, giving them hope that even if you lose your job, it's not the end of the world.
00:11:07:13 - 00:11:39:14
Unknown
I see. So, so I mean yeah I did want to ask you about that, that, that career transition that you spoke about. Like when did it happen and was it a very natural thing for you or was it really out of the blue that it happened? It came out when I started to plan retirement. And obviously in finance the easy route to do something to occupy myself in retirement was to teach finance or do something along those lines.
00:11:39:16 - 00:12:08:11
Unknown
But the two incidents since that came out were acquaintances. I knew, kind of died by suicide. It gives me a joke that yes, there's lots of pressure in financial, financial jobs. It requires people to manage in society is their worries. Yes. Stress for some people, depression, even, but a lot of people don't ask for help.
00:12:08:13 - 00:12:37:09
Unknown
And they therefore try and do with the situation themselves. And often if they put the entire self worth in the job that they have, just lost, compounded by losing my license, then in some cases, broken families because of extramarital affairs and so forth. People think there is no hope and they think the only way is to end their lives.
00:12:37:11 - 00:13:07:18
Unknown
And I thought I could be in a position which I did after I went for school counseling to go back to the banking sector and work out anyone who has issues to talk, wanting to talk to me. To, help them manage stress, depression, relational issues, performance anxieties. That there's always hope that your life is not all dependent on one job.
00:13:07:20 - 00:13:28:17
Unknown
So did it, did it were you worried about this transition that you know, with I mean, thinking like what you mentioned, money isn't the biggest factor in making the decision, but the idea of like your identity being tied to a job as well. Did you have to worry in, in that transition that you were making?
00:13:28:19 - 00:13:56:11
Unknown
Okay. Well, when I was, looking to retire in identity in the job, wasn't something that I was worried about because I had thought about it for a long time and plan it. And I wanted to become, in the end, people help. It help people, look at life differently. Okay. So, for example, we come back to the meaning of money again.
00:13:56:13 - 00:14:25:15
Unknown
It's more to look at it as a means to achieve something else is worthwhile in a life that you can enjoy that more money with loved ones. You can give it give money away for a purpose. Whether it's charity or some other work. There's more fulfillment that way. Then looking at people who have accumulated a lot of money and then you can't go with that money or whatever wealthy health.
00:14:25:17 - 00:15:00:09
Unknown
You can take it to you after life. Yeah. That's true. So I mean, I think it's very interesting that you've successfully made that transition. Were there any skills that you picked up from your years in finance that, transferred very well to your current job? I mean, your current role as a counselor. Well, it helps when I could explain to people or illustrate stories from my banking career, how what they're going through, how they're feeling.
00:15:00:09 - 00:15:31:23
Unknown
Especially if you have a bet. Job assessment by your bosses. Okay. How do you feel? Right. And then how do you move ahead in your career? How do you relate to difficult colleagues? How do you, relate to new challenges? Like, for example, automation now is about AI. How do you adjust to hold new, environmental challenges?
00:15:32:00 - 00:15:56:05
Unknown
How do you manage your stress? Because you can take away all the stressors. You have to learn how to manage those stressors internally and respond appropriately. And so, it helps when I could share those experiences I have with people helping. So that's not difficult. The most difficult part is actually going to school and learning.
00:15:56:07 - 00:16:25:03
Unknown
Psychology. And understanding the different theories of, helping people. And then use that appropriately. And of course I have to go through a minimum of ten hours of counseling, hours of minimum to get my credits. Got it. Got it. Okay. I mean you mentioned a little bit earlier about how, relationships, or even people's romantic relationships.
00:16:25:05 - 00:16:42:12
Unknown
A big part of, like, what makes them happy or, you know, upset as well. For you, like what? What do you think about when you hear the what love. What does that represent for you? Okay. Before I go into that, this is not to say that, housing hours is 100, not ten. Okay. Those. Yeah. Okay.
00:16:42:14 - 00:17:12:02
Unknown
Now, the word love, in the English language is very limiting. A lot of people have this hazy idea what love means. I think the Greeks have it better. In categorizing that into four areas of love. One is eros, which is physical love. And I think most people generally understand what that is. They're physically attracted to somebody.
00:17:12:04 - 00:17:34:03
Unknown
They, I mean, their sexual love as well, and so forth. And how people like to hug and touch and hold hands and so forth. That one is easiest to understand. The other aspect of love by the Greeks is called filial piety is really about friendship and companionship. And and my wife and I are in marriage.
00:17:34:05 - 00:17:55:20
Unknown
We, we train people, we pay for marriage and also, doing marriage, mentoring and counseling as well. We always ask young couples to say for a do more than looking at your physical love, Eros, but also develop a companionship, a friendship. Find the, and make it, you know, make your spouse a best friend, basically.
00:17:55:22 - 00:18:26:12
Unknown
I see. And then the third aspect is called agape love. The Christians who know this very well, we mean sacrificial love. And what it means, in particular in marriage and relationship is how are you willing to give up on your personal rights for the sake of your partner or your spouse? In other words, do something that may run contrary to your behavior and so on, but you're willing to change evening to make things better for the relationship.
00:18:26:14 - 00:18:52:14
Unknown
That's agape love. And of course, last one. Is so gay, which is, loving for parent for a child. So combining all this for developing these four areas helps one to demonstrate what love really is. I see, I see. So for you I mean you mentioned something quite interesting earlier about how to make your spouse or partner your, your best friend.
00:18:52:14 - 00:19:18:23
Unknown
Right. What, what advice do you have for your people in terms of doing that? Well, one has to be very intentional. A lot of people get married and they say, I hope my marriage will work out well, or they have this idea or expectations rather, about a marriage like fairytale that they will live happily ever after.
00:19:19:00 - 00:19:43:06
Unknown
So a lot of couples ask, my wife and I, what's the secret? And then we've been married for 43 years. A secret to our marriage. And we always say it's hard work. So it starts from the very beginning. Being intentional to do something, to develop the friendship, the companionship, doing together things together helps as well.
00:19:43:08 - 00:20:14:02
Unknown
Because shared experience can bring forth, very, high emotions. Or even low emotions when it's a very sad experience. So high and low emotions help to store memories. Very well. Okay. So for example, if you want to ask somebody about what's happiest day of your life or you said is their life on the most traumatic day of your life, they can easily recall.
00:20:14:04 - 00:20:40:15
Unknown
But if you ask somebody when you brush your teeth this morning, where do you start? Left, right or top or bottom? Nobody generally think about that. So in developing that friendship path, planning, making time doing things together. Helps in the bonding. We call it oneness in the Christian marriage. I see, I see. Okay.
00:20:40:15 - 00:21:06:19
Unknown
And, I think you answer a little bit about the secret to longevity of a marriage. But even before that, right, like for young people who are looking for love, or, you know, in the early days of dating, you know, what are the most important qualities that you think they should look for in a partner? Who? We all tend to get blinded by the physical attraction first.
00:21:06:24 - 00:21:35:21
Unknown
There's nothing wrong with that. That's a universal love. I mentioned. But, the second character part, is important in the extent, to the extent of this person's willingness to change for the sake of the marriage or the relationship. A lot of us, well, we today and how we behave today is a result of, many, many years of conditioning.
00:21:35:23 - 00:22:07:24
Unknown
The moment we are born to adolescence to young adulthood. And, people are not willing to change. They tend to, basically say, I'm like that. I can never change. So don't ask me to change. But if one is willing to change for the partner, this is where the love kicks in that if you have a bad habit that is going to be in the way of building the oneness or the bonding, then will be the change.
00:22:08:01 - 00:22:37:17
Unknown
So it's difficult. But as I say, habits can start to change after 21 days of trying. And your partner can encourage you to change, not to criticize you and say why are you so slow in changing but to encourage you step by step to move forward. That will help. So husband and wife, we work as a team and tackle a common problem, a common problem in this case could be a bad habit.
00:22:37:19 - 00:23:04:21
Unknown
That stands in a way. And rather than accusing each other and say it's your fault is your habit. You know, you. I want you to change. Decorate as a team, looking at a common problem and say, okay, we have an obstacle that will, prevent us from growing together in marriage. Let's work on it. Come up with solutions and options and, and then, the most important thing is acceptance and forgiveness.
00:23:04:23 - 00:23:36:22
Unknown
There are some things that we try very hard may not change, but, that, can be accepted by a partner. Is not life threatening or relationship threatening. Why not? But forgiveness helps. It kind of, cause a clean slate to happen, and then you can build from there. The worst thing you can do every time you have a conflict is you bring up skeletons from the closet, accuse your partner and say, oh, you did it again.
00:23:36:24 - 00:24:11:20
Unknown
One time you heard me. Yeah. Yeah. Very true. So I mean, in terms of, outside of romantic relationships, right? Just thinking of the relationships that we have. Have, friends and extended family, you know. For you, over the years, I'm sure you've had your fair share. Friends and acquaintances or even colleagues who became friends. What do you see as the common thread in terms of the values of the people that you hold near to you?
00:24:11:22 - 00:24:39:06
Unknown
Well, I think the key is, whether people want to remain connected. We don't have to be, buddy buddies entire life. They would you would have what we call concentric circles of friends. Right. And friends do have their own quirks, their habits. So we need to, have, need to understand where they come from. Yeah.
00:24:39:08 - 00:25:02:18
Unknown
And they accept who they are. Right. But friends are the ones who step up and, when you have difficulties of challenges, for example, along the way you may lose a job, which I did for a while. I agreed to disagree with my bosses and I left. Right. And so friends, they come round and say to encourage me and say don't worry, you're going to get a job.
00:25:02:18 - 00:25:25:09
Unknown
Another job again and you can come back stronger. Right. And so those are the things where friends therefore to encourage of course, the most important for me was, friendship or relationship with God. And you understand the purpose to even if I was laid off for a period, there's a purpose in that. And being drawn closer to God.
00:25:25:11 - 00:25:50:14
Unknown
And then over time, as I kind of h, friends formed the community that can help in aging. Because the worst thing can happen is to live alone and die alone. Yeah. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. But, communities help. So it requires us to, make the effort, to connect. Not just wait for your friends to call you.
00:25:50:16 - 00:26:19:18
Unknown
Yeah. Do you think that social media has helped make that easier or harder? Well, to the extent of able to connect people easily, like WhatsApp or similar kind of things, fine. But, there are downsides to social media. Yeah. People do send fake news and, not they're not very good around. You always have to ask people, please verify those information first before you read.
00:26:19:20 - 00:26:45:12
Unknown
Yeah. So, I mean, just thinking into young people who might be listening to this in the future and, or, you know, there's a lot of young people who also, they lament, not being able to find real friends these days, even though they're connected all the time and all. What advice do you have for young people who feel very disconnected from society around them?
00:26:45:14 - 00:27:16:02
Unknown
Well, make the effort to do face to face meetings. Because, hiding behind a phone or the, the laptop or the iPads. Not going to help because you have to develop some amount social skills to connect, to understand, things like body language and stay in the tone of language. And, and that's a major part of communication.
00:27:16:04 - 00:27:42:13
Unknown
Right. And then don't judge how you learn to in communication, learn how to actively listen as well because social media can be one sided. Yeah. And, we want to be able to have a two way communication. So is live we doing face to face? It helps. And you make you feel more confident and your friends to accept you who you are as well.
00:27:42:15 - 00:28:10:05
Unknown
So choosing to accept your friends who may have differing views or differing styles and habits. We can just move on along because find something in common should be a common interest, common view of things. Or just being part of social group. Helps a lot. Okay. Let me speak your interests. What's your favorite activity to do.
00:28:10:05 - 00:28:32:19
Unknown
And catching on with old friends. Well most of the time is revolved around food. Okay. And food is a good place to start because people can come and share what, what they have been meeting on social media and, and say, hey, why don't we just go together and eat together. And then that being available making time.
00:28:32:21 - 00:28:58:06
Unknown
Because in this current lifestyle we tend to be very busy, but we have a wonderful tool called a calendar. And we were to block time and say, I'm going to make time because we have the same all time for everybody. So it's prioritizing and say, okay, I going to connect my friends and do more often. Just the same with families as well.
00:28:58:07 - 00:29:21:14
Unknown
We use this with clock to time put em on site. So actually, since retirement, my wife and I, we're busier than ever because our current kids chop it up very fast. Because you you make a point to connect people, especially those you haven't seen for a long time. Ideally, perhaps the outer circle of acquaintances. Yeah. Why would you want to connect with them at least once a year?
00:29:21:16 - 00:29:47:23
Unknown
So we try and do that particularly for me. All classmates. From primary or secondary school even. We don't see often. We probably see once a year. Yeah. And I try to make it a point to make myself available when they have a class reunion, special with everybody I see. And because among these groups, I've seen people who had, died alone.
00:29:48:00 - 00:30:09:15
Unknown
And we wish we had done more for some of these classmates. Very true, very true. You know, thank you for sharing a lot of your stories and going down memory lane and talking about your relationships with people. Because we're doing this for as G60 and there's going to be a lot of young people listening to this.
00:30:09:15 - 00:30:35:01
Unknown
And also in the future, people even in the future coming back to revisit this as a time capsule. I wanted to ask you, since we're at SG 60, what are your hopes and wishes for Singapore in Singaporeans for the next 60 years? The most important is unity. And not quoting this because the Prime Minister and others are saying that.
00:30:35:03 - 00:31:11:04
Unknown
But we have a very diverse, community in Singapore. You know, by race or religion and, language as well. The key thing is find common ground so we could be united. Right. And in this particular case, we are such a small nation where we are going, the unity helps a lot. We may have differences in, policies or political, alliances, but we can still say that we are Singaporeans, right?
00:31:11:04 - 00:31:37:12
Unknown
So that's important. And, the the soul of the nation is very important for us. And it the underlying things that unite us, the unity we all want to do well together. Individually as well as family, as you, as community and as a nation. That's a common desire. Right. And we try not to harm anybody down because we want to move forward.
00:31:37:14 - 00:32:04:15
Unknown
Everybody should, not be left behind. Come along. So that's, that's the important part. And that comes from compassion. You see people who are left behind. It's part of my counseling work. One of the groups that I had mentor before are the poorest, levels of, society in Singapore. Usually single parent families, usually women.
00:32:04:17 - 00:32:33:22
Unknown
Many children. And they earn so little that even with government subsidy, a subsidy from different charitable organizations, they barely, have meet, have ends meet. And, these are the people that we should be compassionate about and try to help, but we can't. They often don't come out and say they need help. But if we were to see people like that, you should try and help.
00:32:34:03 - 00:32:45:08
Unknown
Or at least start with befriending them and get to know their life story. Everybody has a life story, which is wonderful.
00:32:51:19 - 00:33:22:21
Unknown
Hello again. I hope you enjoyed listening to that for me. Words of wisdom is a project by Charlotte Coal powered by Phil Cleary and supported by our Singapore Fund. To find out more, please visit our website at Folklorico Comm. That's f o l k o r y.com. Goodbye.