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Record Live is a conversation about life, spirituality and following Jesus in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Are Adventists really the remnant_
[00:00:00] Hi there, everyone. I'm Jared. And I'm Zenita. We are your hosts of Record Live, a podcast where we talk about church, faith, and living well. We believe as followers of Jesus, faith is more than just a set of beliefs. It's a way of life, something we put into practice. Let's go live.
Jarrod Stackelroth: You guessed it, folks. It's that time again. It's Record Live Time. Zanita, it's great to have you back on Record Live and brother Jesse, you are a friend of the show, a regular guest. It's awesome to have you as well.
Jesse Herford: Thank you, brother Jared and sisters. Zanita, it's great to be here.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Now, some of you may know that August is signs month and And what you see before you [00:01:00] are folks who do work on record live sometimes and record things, but this is the Signs team, your friendly neighborhood Signs team and Jesse and Zanita.
Jarrod Stackelroth: , I have a very great privilege to work with on Signs. Signs of the times has been around for 138 odd years. , it's always been a key part of outreach for the seventh day Adventist church in the South Pacific division. And so. We celebrate signs every August. And so we got Jesse as the associate editor of signs of the times to join us on record live today and have a chat about a, a very Adventist.
Jarrod Stackelroth: topic, I suppose, it's a Christian doctrine that sometimes is a bit obscure, not sort of mainstream people talking about it all the time, but it's, , carries some weight in our faith tradition, especially, and we thought it would be interesting to talk about it. Good to talk about with Pastor [00:02:00] Jesse.
Jarrod Stackelroth: , and also we brush up against these concepts all the time in Signs Magazine. We're trying to explain our Adventist beliefs to a broader audience, but in a way that's invitational and Interesting and carries some relevance to the modern world that we live in. And so you're going to see that in, in real time today, as we explore this topic.
, . This is what we're trying to do. We're unpacking topics in such a way that makes them accessible to a broad audience. So today we're tackling the remnant, uh Adventists, really the remnant. That's a good question. And hopefully by the end of our conversation today, we will have answered that a little,
Jarrod Stackelroth: definitively. Definitively answered, Jared. Definitively answered. There will be no need for you to watch, read, or do anything else except this podcast slash live stream. This will be it. This is the way to do it. You'll know [00:03:00] everything that needs to be known and everything that's ever said will be right here for your enjoyment
Zanita Fletcher: in 30 minutes
Jarrod Stackelroth: in 30 minutes.
Jarrod Stackelroth: I think we've talked ourselves off enough.
Jarrod Stackelroth: I'm just kind of joking people like don't get too upset. We're just having some fun today. It is a heavy topic sometimes for some people, but we're going to have some fun with it. So without further ado, Jesse. We're going to hit you with that first question. What is the remnant?
Jesse Herford: The remnant is a special group of people is talked about particularly in an Adventist setting. in Revelation as it pertains to end time events, but is not exclusive to Revelation. It is a, I would call it a,, a design pattern that we see throughout all of scripture, [00:04:00] but that we only really kind of zoom in on as Adventists typically, , as it pertains to the books of Daniel and Revelation.
Jesse Herford: Now, if you were to ask any Adventist, , worth their salt, those who are passionate about the remnant, They might bring up Revelation 12 verse 17. That's probably we find the traditional view of the remnant. Now, in case you need a reminder, , Revelation 12 verse 17 says, Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
Jesse Herford: That's the NIV. And so this is, I think, where the idea of, or the traditional idea. Let's say of the remnant is probably most encapsulated. It is focused on end time events. It is a group of who are the seed, the offspring of the woman who is, , talking about the church here, the, the rem.
Jesse Herford: Church, the [00:05:00] true church, and these people are in opposition, they're in a war with this figure, the dragon, who is traditionally characterized as the devil or the Satan, in opposition to that, to God and in opposition to God's remnant church. And the thing that sets them apart, is this twofold old thing at the end , of the verse, they do two things.
Jesse Herford: They keep God's commands and they hold fast to their testimony about Jesus. Now, depending on your translation might depend on exactly how that comes across. ,
Jesse Herford: the KJV says, they who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. So the commandments of God typically is interpreted as the 10 commandments and the testimony of Jesus Christ is an Interesting one, because on the one hand, it attests to faith in Jesus, which is a true faith in Jesus, but then a traditional view would go further than that and say the testimony of Jesus Christ is, fully expressed in the spirit of prophecy, which we, , Talk about , as Ellen White [00:06:00] and Ellen White's testimony.
Jesse Herford: So that would be a, probably a run of the mill traditional answer to, to who is the remnant.
Zanita Fletcher: You mentioned, Jesse, that there are two kind of identifying markers for the remnant. First of all, that we keep the Ten Commandments, and second of all, that we have the testimony of Jesus. Uh, I have heard many Adventists, I was raised in the Adventist church, so I've heard it here and there, claim that we as Adventists are like the remnant.
Zanita Fletcher: but reading Revelation 12, I would kind of draw the conclusion that a large amount of people from various denominations or faith backgrounds could fall under that. , am I missing something with that?
Jesse Herford: No, you're not. Uh, There are many interpretations for this. In fact, , there is a document that I will point people toward from the Biblical Research Institute. if you Google Remnant SDA Church, it's one of the first results that you'll find. And it actually outlines six different interpretations, which we don't have time to go through today.
Jesse Herford: The main sticking point, I think, for a lot of people who are [00:07:00] unsatisfied with the traditional interpretation Interpretation is, as you say, it doesn't say specifically that those who keep the 10 Commandments, it says those who keep the of God. And I think it's that open endedness that has created some of the controversy and has created some of the extra interpretation.
Jesse Herford: interpretations that we see, , there's actually, a lot of debate about what this actually means. The traditional view, I would say, probably maybe even the extra traditional view, like the really hardcore view would point to the Sabbath as being a big element of this, because, , you know, if you've been part of the Adventist church for a while, you'll know that the Sabbath is often the one that we kind of hold up as we're the only ones who are doing this.
Jesse Herford: It's nobody else is doing this, therefore that makes us unique and that's not to denigrate the role of the Sabbath. , I believe in the Sabbath and I think the Sabbath is hugely important, , but we aren't actually the only ones who observed the Sabbath. The Jews have observed the Sabbath for millennia and there are many other Christians around the world who also observed the Sabbath.
Jesse Herford: So, , perhaps in a late [00:08:00] 19th century, 20th century perspective, that might've been a more, , , unique characteristic for us , as an Adventist church. , but it isn't so much anymore, but that doesn't mean that it's necessarily not true. Now there is some, , debate about what the remnant is. Is it an invisible remnant?
Jesse Herford: it a visible remnant? Is there an invisible remnant inside a visible remnant? It's sort of, it gets to the point of remnant inception a little bit when we talk about it. Sometimes the terms become so confused that it's different. Difficult to know what we're talking about anymore. For what it's worth, , Ellen White actually seems to somewhat support the idea of an invisible remnant all around the world.
Jesse Herford: I'm happy to share some quotations. There's one particular one from Prophets and Kings that I think is really interesting. , if I just pull it up here, Prophets and Kings, , she says, Among Earth's Scattered in every land, there are those who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Baal was an ancient Mesopotamian [00:09:00] storm deity.
Jesse Herford: , in opposition with Israel. Like the stars of heaven, which appear only at night, these faithful ones will shine forth when darkness covers the earth and gross Darkness, the people in heathen Africa, in the Catholic lands of Europe and of South America, in China, in India, in the islands of the sea, and in all the dark corners of the earth, God has in reserve a firmament of chosen people that will yet shine forth amidst the darkness.
Jesse Herford: Revealing clearly to an apostate world, the transforming power of obedience to his law. Perhaps not some of the language I would choose to describe Africa or Europe, but you know, this is a different time. , this is not the only, uh, part where, , Mrs. White So it seems to support this idea as you've raised Zenita of a remnant being outside of the Adventist denomination, though within the Adventist denomination, there certainly are proponents that, , the unique characteristics of the church mean that we specifically are the remnant and nobody else is.
Jesse Herford: , though how they deal [00:10:00] with quotations, like, , the one here, I'm not sure.
Jarrod Stackelroth: It seems, Jesse, sometimes we've even encountered, , a more hardcore view than that, and perhaps it fits into the invisible remnant within , the remnant or whatever, that, even if you're an Adventist, it doesn't guarantee you're part of the remnant, like there'll be a shaking and , the bad Adventists will get the flick, you know, there's a really hardcore, , sort of group that.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Will be left over, but I just want to, I just want to back and, , in your first, , sort of definition of the remnant, you mentioned that you see it as somewhat of a theme and it seems in the quote you read from Ellen White, she's linking it to the prophets of Baal that were left around when the time of Elijah, that there were prophets, , he was discouraged.
Jarrod Stackelroth: God said, Hey, there's a certain number of people left in Israel that are faithful. can you just tell us how this theme of the remnant plays out through the Bible? , because we can get probably a misconception of certain doctrines if we just rely on one verse.
Jarrod Stackelroth: But if we [00:11:00] understand how this theme has been developed and unpacked till it gets to revelation, maybe it gives us some other anchor points to understand this theme in a bit of a, , more balanced way.
Jesse Herford: Yeah, you're absolutely right. We should not be basing an entire theology off one verse. But the good news is, , there isn't just one verse. , there is a, a design pattern that goes all the way through the Bible that helps us to understand. So I think Noah is somebody who is singled out by God as somebody who can do something, , very specific in a world gone astray. And it came to pass Genesis six, verse one, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were fair.
Jesse Herford: Okay. Took them wives of all which they chose and the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man for he is also flesh yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years, et cetera, et cetera. But Noah, verse [00:12:00] eight, found grace in the eyes of of the Lord. So here you have a figure who is unlike all the people of his generation, a wicked generation.
Jesse Herford: , The earth was also corrupt before God. The earth was filled with violence and Noah stands apart from all of the other people in his generation. He has a family that are also faithful. And so God says, Hey, it's through Noah and Noah's family that I want to save the earth and all that's in it. And so we see the flood narrative.
Jesse Herford: Come to pass as we go on to the rest of Genesis. This actually happens a few other times. Joseph is Seen as a remnant figure, , he is like Noah, part of a family that, , well, you know, the brothers, They're jealous. There's some family drama. And, , he is, , basically a fish out of water.
Jesse Herford: He ends up in Egypt as a slave. And he's a, he's a faithful man in an unfaithful land in a land full of gods who are unlike his and, , rather than condemning this [00:13:00] land. And he actually saves it and he saves all the rest of the peoples around him, including his family through his faithful actions.
Jesse Herford: , as you go on through the kingdom of Israel or the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, we see this particularly, , in post exile. There a remnant of faithful people because the theme that is often repeated in these stories, , through of Judah is the unfaithfulness of the people is the reason for the destruction of the kingdom.
Jesse Herford: The unfaithfulness of the king, of the king's family. Of the people worshipping other gods, , doing injustice, all these sorts of things. uh, , Amos talks about this. Micah about this, that there will be a remnant of Jacob, that there'll be a remnant, a root, a seed, a, an offspring, , somebody who will, , right the wrongs of the past and who will bring Israel back to its former glory.
Jesse Herford: And this is where we see, , particularly in Micah. , the echo of the, , the Messiah, the promise of the Messiah who is to come, who is [00:14:00] also a remnant. , if you look at Micah chapter five, the NIV's little subtitle for chapter five is a promised ruler from Bethlehem, which should tip you off as to what he's talking about.
Jesse Herford: , verse seven and eight of chapter five, the remnant of Jacob will be in the midst of many people. Like dew from the Lord, like showers on the grass, which do not wait for anyone or depend on man. The remnant of Jacob will be among the nations in the midst of many peoples will be like a lion among the beasts of the forest, like a young lion among flocks of sheep, which balls and mangles as it goes and no one can rescue.
Jesse Herford: So this is, this is triumphal language. This is conquering language and the ruler that's promised from Bethlehem will save Israel and will be a conquering King. So you could talk about Jesus. , Jesus is also portrayed as the remnant, and we see the remnant in the New Testament as well. God's people are characterized as a remnant, those who are faithful to God amidst the pagan [00:15:00] Romanized world.
Jesse Herford: And so there's a natural flow then, because obviously Revelation is very much situated in the first century, and so there's a natural flow on if people , for the, the persecution that God's churches is undergoing in the first century. And then we see that in an eschatological sense in, in revelation.
Jesse Herford: So that's sort of from Genesis to revelation. There is a flow there. It's not just, it's not just revelation.
Zanita Fletcher: Is it through these stories, like the story of Noah and the story of Joseph, that we have this perception that the remnant is only a small. minority of people, because I guess another thing I've heard, I think the Jehovah's also believe this, but I've heard that only 144, 000 like faithful people will make up that kind of remnant.
Zanita Fletcher: , but anything in the Bible that actually suggests that's a small amount of people, because when I think of signs and telling people about, Adventist beliefs, , to me, the concept of a small remnant and only a [00:16:00] small amount of people making it is It seems a bit like a contradiction to a God who was like, very graceful and very kind and generous and full of mercy.
Zanita Fletcher: , do we actually know that or?
Jesse Herford: Well I mean, the 144, 000 is an entirely other topic. It's it's a big biblical number. You have 144, which is 12, Times 12 times, , a thousand, a hundred thousand, all that sort of stuff. So yeah, there's, there's that as well. The idea of the remnant being a small number amidst a large number, I think is probably a reflection of the underdog kind of status of Israel.
Jesse Herford: You have Abraham, who is a small in a big world, who then goes on to found a nation that is a small fish in a big world. I mean, the nation of Israel exists alongside the Hittite Empire, the Egyptian Empire, the Babylonian Empire, the Assyrian Empire, later the Persian Empire, and then the Roman Empire.
Jesse Herford: It's only really in, the era of David that we see, , the nation be a economic [00:17:00] military powerhouse. It's short lived. And the rest of the history of Israel is as a small fish in a big pond, a nation, which as we all know, was supposed to be the nation through whom all the nations of the earth would be blessed.
Jesse Herford: And so I think this idea of the remnant being a small group of people amidst a large group, I think is indeed. How God works in the world. God doesn't work through economic and military might. He works through a small group of people. And this is how the Christian Church starts, as a Judaic sect, right?
Jesse Herford: As an obscure cult. , in the midst of this pagan world , of many different gods is polytheistic world. It's not popular for the first 300 years of its existence. It's not until centuries later that Christianity is legalized. So for the first couple hundred years of Christianity's life, it must have felt like we're a remnant because everybody else hates us, , to, to larger [00:18:00] or lesser degrees, of course.
Jesse Herford: But I think that to your question, Zaneda. Is that what God wants? Does God, is God just interested in, , a small group of people, the exclusive people? We're kind of verging almost on like Gnostic philosophy, the idea that, , there's only a small amount of people who get access to the real truth and everybody else is excluded.
Jesse Herford: That's not the God, of the Bible. You know, we talk about 2nd Peter 3 verse Nine, saying that God is not slack concerning his promise as some, some men say he is long suffering, not willing that any should perish. But that all should come to repentance. God wants all peoples to find wholeness and healing and , , the culmination of their entire life longings , , in the person of Jesus , as their savior and as their king.
Jesse Herford: I don't think it's God's. Will or his desire to be a small God for a small group of exclusive people. God wants to be the God for all, but I think it's probably more a reflection of the fact that [00:19:00] we're attracted to power and we're attracted to doing things the way we want the way of the God of the Bible, the way of Jesus is kind of a remnant way because it goes against our nature of how we operate in the world.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Yeah. Just in that space, I was listening to, I think the Bible Podcast recently, and they were reflecting on when Jesus said, you know, small is the road and narrow that leads to life and how it's difficult to find.
Jarrod Stackelroth: But then in other places, Jesus talked about the many people that will come to follow his example. His way sort of thing. And I think of, I think it's Isaiah that, you know, , the, the nations will be gathered. , , it's this big picture of many people. And so there's always that. And I think it's something to reflect on, will it be lots?
Jarrod Stackelroth: Will it be many, If, if it's not necessarily clear, or if it's not, if we can't look at the [00:20:00] remnant and say, well, as a definition, that means it's only a tithe of people, it's only 10%, or it's only 144, 000 or something, you know, If it's only 144, 000, we're a bit, a bit of trouble because the Seventh day Adventist Church has 28 million members or something worldwide.
Jarrod Stackelroth: So, you know, , that's a very small number. , so I guess the question is, if it's not, a small set amount, or if we can't actually predict what the remnant is, to what value does , the doctrine itself have? What can it give to us or, or help us with in our lives to, to aim to be the remnant or to live in that kind of way?
Jesse Herford: Yeah. there are sections within the the church that, the church is apostate and that there's a very, there's a very narrow way to be part of, , God's remnant. , but it's a self defeating kind of thing to try and try so hard to be [00:21:00] part of God's remnant, whether it means,, emphasizing a specific kind of behavior or, trying to, to be a certain way to try and eliminate It's in or trying to do whatever to be part of that exclusive group.
Jesse Herford: I think that's, that's a self defeating, , exercise. So when I, when I think of, revelation verse 17, it talks about those , , who hold true to the commandments of God, who observe God's commandments. And I'm reminded of Jesus's famous statement in the gospels where he says, a new commandment I give you.
Jesse Herford: To love one another as I have loved you when we talk about the remnant, often we talk about the 10 commandments, but often skip over the commandment that Jesus gives us a new commandment. I give you. And if we're serious about being followers of Jesus. Then we should be serious about that commandment, perhaps even more serious than the 10 commandments.
Jesse Herford: I don't know if, , if you don't want to go that far, that's absolutely fine. The 10 commandments came from the mouth of God. The new commandment also came from the mouth of God. So, , we probably shouldn't pit them against each other. But what Jesus [00:22:00] does say in the Gospels is that this.
Jesse Herford: Encapsulates all of God's commandments, not just the 10, but the 600, whatever that we came up with subsequently, , in the Jewish faith. And so if that one commandment to love each other isn't the encapsulation of all of the commands of the Old Testament, And the remnant are the people who hold to the commands God and the testimony of Jesus, then those two things seem to marry together to me, at least on a practical level, we could debate theologically but on a very practical level, to me, the remnant is the people who are more like Jesus than the other people who are trying to just keep the commandments.
Jesse Herford: I have no issue with the 10 commandments and nor should any of us. They're fantastic guides for life. And, , I think, , , , , uh, not, stealing and killing and all that sort of stuff. That's great. Keeping the Sabbath, fantastic. , but Jesus actually goes beyond just don't murder your [00:23:00] neighbor and says, actually Give them the cloak off your back, turn the other cheek, all these things that we see in the teachings of Jesus. So I think on a very practical level, the remnant are the people who are serious about living of Jesus, being like who he is, becoming like who he is. And that is the work of a lifetime.
Jesse Herford: I don't think that there's any point where any of us are going to be able to say, I have graduated, I've got my diploma, I'm now part of the remnant. I'm done. Very good. , I'm satisfied. , I've achieved remnant status. I don't know that that's possible. But I think it's like we should all strive for.
Jesse Herford: It's something that I, I, I want to strive for every day.
Zanita Fletcher: kind of like that story in Um, Jesus says that I don't know you to a group of people and they're like, but what do you mean? We kept all your commandments. But he was like, but you didn't have love. So yeah, it's a cool point, Jesse.
Zanita Fletcher: , Jesse, you're aware, and you've kind of just tapped into this a little bit. You're aware we like to keep things practical on record live, but I guess coming from like the Signs team, so this is our aim to [00:24:00] share things with people. , you mentioned , obviously going on that journey of , learning to love better and be a better person.
Zanita Fletcher: But how can we go about, sharing this kind of message? With people who are new to faith, who don't know much about God, like how should we approach that in a way that isn't going to make them, , act out of a sense of like fear or think that God is like a certain kind of God that he isn't.
Zanita Fletcher: Do you have any tips for that?
Jesse Herford: I'm, I'm only hesitating because I'm like, ah, should I go there or should I not? I think I will. , we haven't even touched on Babylon yet, right? Part of this is come out of Babylon, right? And we often characterize come out of Babylon, like, , don't go to church on Sunday or, X, Y, Z, you've got a whole list of things of, of, , reasons why either myself as an or a whole denomination could be apostate, , Babylon is the apostate church.
Jesse Herford: Okay, cool. But Babylon is actually, again, a much deep, , design pattern that runs all the way through the Bible. It's not just in Revelation. And Babylon, to me, at least, represents [00:25:00] everything that we as human beings think we need to do in order to be happy, to grasp power for ourselves, to lie, cheat and steal if necessary, to make sure that I have what I need, that my family is taken care even if it's at the expense of somebody else.
Jesse Herford: That's Babylon. Babylon is the ultimate encapsulation of evil, the ultimate encapsulation of selfishness. And unfortunately, even Christians are like Babylon. Israel is often compared to a type of Babylon in the Old Testament because it gets to this point where it is powerful. It is , it is prosperous and it becomes like everybody else, the call for the remnant is to not be like everybody else, to be , the kind of human being that God wants us to be, to be the kind of human being that, the Psalmist talks about in Psal chapter.
Jesse Herford: Eight who talks about how we are crowned with honor and glory, just a little lower than the angels that God has given us the authority to rule and reign alongside him in partnership with him [00:26:00] and being in partnership with God means to do things the way that God does them to live according to his will.
Jesse Herford: to the wisdom of God, , to be the kind of human that God intended you and I to be. And that's where wisdom comes into it. , and I do think that the wisdom literature of the old Testament is really helpful in this, the Psalms and the Proverbs, practical knowledge of how to live our lives, but also the call of Jesus to lay down our life for those around us.
Jesse Herford: The reason why these things are so hard is because they're not natural. You could argue. is natural. You could argue that Babylon is the way things should be, but I reject that Because Satan didn't create this world, God did. And God created this world and us to be, to live and to thrive according to God's character and God's wisdom.
Jesse Herford: And to be part of the remnant is to live according to God's character and his wisdom. Again, to be more like Jesus. So I realize that's a very high level perspective.
Jesse Herford: I think if [00:27:00] we're to boil it down, , how can I be a remnant? How can I communicate the message of the remnant? I don't think it's to say if you go to church on Sunday, then you're outside of the remnant. Or, , if you aren't part of the Seventh day Adventist church, you're not part of the remnant.
Jesse Herford: Thing is to say the way that we have expressed God's character, God's love and God's heart for humanity through the. The Seventh day Adventist Church, this theology, and not just , their theology, but through their practice, that is the most beautiful revelation of God's character. And it doesn't mean anything if it isn't lived.
Jesse Herford: I think that's where the rubber really meets the road. , when people see the way that we live and see the kind of fruit, of our lives, the invitation is to be part of that. And the invitation in that sense is to be part of the remnant.
Jarrod Stackelroth: So we finish this conversation where we started. Are Adventists really the remnant? Give us the too long, don't read version, Jesse.
Jesse Herford: Adventists aren't always the remnant, but they can be.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Awesome. Let's [00:28:00] aspire this week to live like the remnant , I think , I resonated with what you said there, Jesse, about the character and the heart of God. Let's try and encapsulate that. And to be. Be more like God so that we can be a blessing to the world that we live in and the spheres of influence that we are stewarding.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Well, we've run out of time. Thank you Jesse for joining us If you're interested in signs of the times you can check out signs mag. com We've got all our stuff there and I suggest that you read it for yourself, share it with a friend. That's what Signs is all about. It's a really good, opportunity to break down some of these sometimes difficult theological concepts in an accessible and loving way for your neighbor.
Jarrod Stackelroth: So thanks for joining us, Jesse. thanks Zenita for joining us and we'll see you again on Record Live next week. God bless. [00:29:00]