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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: Welcome to the hundredth episode of We Not Me. To celebrate this milestone. We wanted to do something special and to get to the core of the we, not me spirit. Our first guest for this special episode is Gillian Coutts, who was our guest on episode 12, and since that time, she suffered a life event that nearly killed her. It left her physically and mentally challenged, but her spirit and her capabilities served her individually and her network, including our second guest, her business partner, Jenny Steadman, stepped up to support. This episode is at times hard to hear. It's inspiring, emotional, challenging, and uplifting. It's pure We Not Me. Enjoy.
[00:00:42] Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:55] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:00:57] Dan: For the hundredth time, Pia.
[00:01:00] Pia: For the hundredth time, will you be quiet?
[00:01:02] Dan: Will you be quiet? No, that's about a thousand at least.
[00:01:05] Pia: true. Now this, we're celebrating our century.
[00:01:09] Dan: We really are. Yeah, exactly. Amazing. And I was just gave me pause for thought because, I'm sure it did you, but you sort of, when you set out on these things, I actually was on a podcast this week and they're doing their second podcast, and I was able to say to them, look, we did our second podcast once. You know, we did our second episode. And, uh, but that's a long time ago. And, uh, yeah, it's a, it's a hundred, a hundred conversations about connection, uh, between humans. Wonderful.
[00:01:36] Pia: And I think, know. I hope our listeners think the same thing, but I think the conversations are getting richer and richer. I feel like we are having conversations with people that have got incredibly interesting things to say about the people that they work with or the things that they observe. And yeah, I feel. Just privileged is probably the best way I would describe it to be in this position, to have these conversations, and learn something every time.
[00:02:02] Dan: Yeah, no, absolutely. I I, I think that's a good point. And people accept the invitation. They come on the show and they give their all. It's it's quite exposing sometimes. And but I think that this need for. We Not Me has only grown in that time. I don't, you know, we have division in society, we have enterprises under pressure trying to work out how to, do less with more. And the answer we say is teams and building as you've been reading recently, I think at Adam Grant, building that collective intelligence. And that's, you know, that's just. It's never been more important and it's so, it's wonderful to be here and thank you Pia for your wonderful conversations, your great questions along the way.
[00:02:40] Pia: thank you. Oh, we could do a bit of mutual love,
[00:02:42] Dan: I know a bit of a pat on the back across the airwaves.
[00:02:44] Pia: Yeah, And we did really wanna make this special, didn't we? 'cause it was the hundredth and really wanted to make this something that was real, authentic, and touched our hearts and. About a couple of months ago, I got a phone call from Gillian Coutts and I hadn't heard from her from quite some time, and I did know why that was the case. Because she was a guest on our show talking about compassion back in 2021 and was actually traveling around Australia and then six months later at the height of her career suffered a really awful stroke, which she escaped with her life quite narrowly, uh, and just came out the other side.
[00:03:31] And hearing her story and the journey that she went through, and just knowing what an incredibly wonderful, authentic and, even in the midst of all this awfulness, she's got this lightness and spirit, which is really infectious, yeah, she was exactly the right person. to bring on board for this hundredth episode.
[00:03:52] Dan: Yeah, exactly. And why don't we just take a little zoom back, Pia, and uh, hear a little bit of that first episode that we heard her on in episode, It was episode 12.
[00:04:02] Gillian: The reality is as humans, none of us get out of bed to piss each other off. We really don't. Like we are, we get out of bed. We just want to be happy. Nobody wants to suffer. We are all the heroes of our own journey. And I think that if you can keep holding that in mind, even in the most annoying conversations, how is this person, the curiosity, how is this person just trying to get their needs met? And can I. Have empathy and calm and compassion for that because I just want to get my needs met too?
[00:04:32] So if we can just drop some of the, the other blah-blah-blah that goes over the top of all of that, when we're pretending that's not just how things are, then that can be super helpful and actually a hell of a lot less effort.
[00:04:44] What I think is really interesting as well is when we come from that place of, I wonder what's going on for this person? Courage is another interestingly from a complex system, courage arises and with courage teams can do anything.
[00:04:55] Dan: What a wonderful person. And no spoilers, but that same spirit exists in Gill today as we're about to hear in this conversation with her and her business partner, who's also a wonderful person, Jenny Steadman. So let's go and hear this really moving conversation now.
[00:05:12] Pia: As this is the hundredth episode, we have two remarkable guests joining us today. Gillian Coutts and Jenny Steadman. Welcome both of you.
[00:05:25] Jenny: Great to be here.
[00:05:26] Pia: Oh, it is. And oh, I can't, I'm holding myself back 'cause I really wanna dive into, the events between when we last met, nearly, uh, it was, I think it was 18 months or two and a half years ago, in December, uh, 2021. But I'm gonna hold myself back and instead I'm gonna throw you to the lions, you know, that's just normal. That's what we do. And you know, as our little sort of warmup event, Dan is going to do the conversation starter cards, but you can confer, you're allowed to confer with
[00:05:56] Dan: you are. But we will hear you inferring. So, okay, so I've cut the cards and I have a nice green card for you. Family meal times are like, what are, What are your family meal times like?
[00:06:08] Gillian: I think for me, uh, is around the tv, watching TV and eating something, you know, whatever is on the, the menu. But when we have guests, that's when we ate at the table.
[00:06:22] Pia: That's quite British. You know, the British show you some dining rooms like that, you know, and that's when they entertain guests,
[00:06:28] Gillian: Yes,
[00:06:29] Pia: They sat in front of the TV for the rest of the year.
[00:06:32] Gillian: Yeah.
[00:06:33] Jenny: Speaking from experience
[00:06:34] Pia: That's right.
[00:06:36] Jenny: for me it really represents the chance when the four of us get to talk about our day and what's happened. And typically for the kids, it's telling us I had this, and then I had this, and then I had this. So yeah, it's quite good. I really, in fact, I love it. I love that time of the day.
[00:06:52] Gillian: Having a, uh, 14-year-old. If you get anything out of them at 14, it's like, well done.
[00:07:00] Jenny: Yeah. I feel very lucky with these conversations that we have,
[00:07:03] Dan: Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing. Normally the conversation goes, what did you have today? Maths? How was it good or, alright. And what did you have after that? Oh, you know, physics, how was it? Alright. Yes. That, so you've, it sounds like you've done very well there, Jenny.
[00:07:18] Pia: It is deep and meaningful.
[00:07:19] Jenny: Not exactly, but it's beautiful, anyway. It's probably about the only time in the day where the four of us can get together.
[00:07:25] Dan: Wonderful. Okay, And Gill, one final question for you on that. What's on the TV?
[00:07:29] Gillian: Oh, it's mostly, it'll be some sort of series, Netflix or Apple or something. Like, we don't really use, that much news,
[00:07:41] Dan: We've had to cut back our consumption of the news, actually. It's just sort of negativity being mainlined into your house sometimes, isn't it? it's this thing to be very deliberate about, I think.
[00:07:52] Pia: And here would be my confession, which is we don't have a TV. So we have a screen, but we haven't had a TV in the house 10 years.
[00:07:59] Jenny: Oh, Pia. I went for 13 years without a television and it was great. Although I missed out on the whole Seinfeld friends era, and I had no idea what people were talking about, but yeah, good on you.
[00:08:11] Pia: So we, but it's always attached to a laptop, so it takes a bit of sort of, you know, bit of setting up and
[00:08:16] Dan: Little bit of, uh, there's a little sort of energy you have to get over. So Yeah, you have to invest a little bit first. Yeah, definitely. Why don't we, just to continue, we have a little glimpse of your lives as they are now. Gill, you in particular, we're gonna hear some specific details about your recent life, but why don't we start first with you, Jenny? Tell us a bit about you and how you got to this place.
[00:08:38] Jenny: Oh sure. I am a co-director of Potential Project here in Australia with Gill. So we're both co national directors. And have a very varied background. My working career started as a classical musician. I used to play in the Sydney Symphony Orchestra and then a lengthy background in human resources, leadership development. I looked after recruitment of the paid staff for the Olympic Games. I was a venue staffing manager at the games. Gill and I actually first met back then a bit before 2000 when we were both working for the Olympic Committee. And I worked in the energy industry for a long time and I looked after organizational strategy and transformation.
[00:09:18] And for about the past, it's hard to remember now, maybe six years with Potential Project, which I absolutely love. And really how I got to Potential Project was partly because of breast cancer actually, and which is again very similar to Gill, what you went through as well. But I got breast cancer when I was working in my organizational strategy, corporate role. I loved the job that I had, but it was enough for me to stop and think, am I really making a positive difference in the world?
[00:09:48] And we often hear people say that they realize their second life begins that moment when they realize that they in fact only have one. And it was then that I thought, actually it is time for me to, for a start, be more available for my family in those early stages anyway, and also to really be making a positive difference in the world. And so with my kind of parallel background in meditation and mindfulness, it really linked in very nicely with what we do at Potential Projects. So I've married the two together and here I am today on your podcast.
[00:10:19] Pia: And Gill, so we last spoke from Lightning Ridge, December, 2021. And then six months later, a very big event happened. So bring us up to June first. Tell us a bit about you and then, and then let's, then, then we need to talk about what happened and the journey from there.
[00:10:37] Gillian: Well, I started, I mean, I continued the work of compassion and mindfulness and leadership about and stuff. and then probably went through till June the 20th. And I woke up and I was going about, I think I had about 12. presentations for that week, and I felt really sort of, I just felt funny in the back of my head, like, migraine or something coming on.
[00:11:07] And I still got up, got dressed, went into the venue for the first. I'm gonna presentation, there you go, um, was taking place and I just thought, oh, actually I feel, I still feel a bit, like, I've still got a headache. So I sat down and then it was time for the presentation to start, and I just thought actually this is more than a headache, and I started. Sort of saying some reaching anybody to be able to say, I'm really, really feeling sick.
[00:11:41] And someone said, actually, you've got a stroke, because you are all of like, I didn't realize, but my arm and my leg and my, speech and my eye, everything had gone droopy. Then I suddenly almost like Suddenly say, actually I'm not in control of it anymore. and so I actually said, okay, I really need help. And basically I went to an ambulance, and the ambulance got me to the hospital. And by the time we'd walked in the or, wheeled in through the door, I was unconscious. So I don't know what happened after that.
[00:12:20] Pia: And gosh, it sounds so trite. That is a complete life changing moment because I mean, you have had a fantastic career educating people on mindfulness, compassion. You know, you've been going at a million miles an hour. You had all these presentations. You were like, woo-hoo. Just about to take off with your booster rockets, and then life deals this unimaginable blow. So, what happened to, you've now gone to sleep in the story,
[00:12:49] Gillian: Yeah, and I've gone to sleep for about three and a half weeks,
[00:12:52] Pia: Three and a half weeks.
[00:12:54] Jenny: That was really significant. Uh, I remember having a phone call with Gill's husband, Steve, late that evening to let me know what had happened. And as Gill was saying, she was going into a week of vast number of presentations because this was her last week of working before heading off on this planned three month holiday around Australia. So there was so much being packed in. And what happened as far as a work perspective is concerned, it was absolutely my commitment that I would not let a single thing go. And so there was this mad rush to be picking up everything. Like the very next day Gill was due to be MCing a conference. And so I contacted them and said I'll MC instead, if you wish. And they said, yes, please.
[00:13:38] Gillian: And they haven't, hadn't not necessarily know of you though as well, so it's been.
[00:13:44] Jenny: It was very much a trust thing for them. Yeah, that's right. And of course, all of the other clients, it was just, I read over my diary just before we got onto this podcast recording today just to remind myself of what it was like back then and it was phenomenal in terms of the, amount of focus that needed to go into all of this. And then of course, there's the deep concern about what has happened to my beautiful friend and business partner and my concern for you, Gill, and for your family. It was a really crazy time.
[00:14:20] Pia: So did you write it all down You said you had a diary.
[00:14:24] Jenny: Yeah. No, it's in, no, in my journal I
[00:14:27] Dan: Oh, and you journaled So you saw everything there.
[00:14:30] Pia: It's, sometimes those things that, you know, you're in such a blur, you can't remember everything that happened, so that's actually quite fortuitous you wrote it, read it all down.
[00:14:38] Jenny: That's right. And Gill is actually talking of writing. She's writing a book about this at the moment and I think we were saying the other day, Gill, that the journal writing that I did around that time might be useful input for what you're doing with this book.
[00:14:50] Gillian: So the, what I understand is on a practical level, Steve, got power of attorney. So, he was there on whether I lived or died. And they, there was probably for the first week, I think he was really worried that he was gonna be making the call to switch me off. And so, that was a whole like, just, I can't imagine what that meant that I must have been feeling like. But by the second week I had showed signs of recovering, and they were really cautious to keep people's expectations low. Like I, I was a I couldn't breathe by myself, so they said, look she might never breathe again. But it's lovely that she is alive. I mean like really like, anyway.
[00:15:46] Pia: Wow. Uh, well, and thank you for that.
[00:15:49] Gillian: Yeah, that's right. And so basically because I was going to survive it then became each milestone was a tick. And so, you know, I started to breathe and then I, I got, um, I had this trachea for quite a while, maybe two or three months. And then I had a a p peg? Peg, that you have in your stomach, so you are, eating and stuff. So I didn't start eating until about two or three months it just, it was so, it's just exhausting actually thinking about it because It was so much effort to do just being alive.
[00:16:33] Pia: Which I was gonna ask you that, I mean, you you literally went from really high functioning, like you're just about to present and you know, and we've all done that, and you're like, Ooh. Can you remember anything about the actual coma itself? You know, Is this the reveal that, that, you know, your brain goes into these amazing places, or is it just black and then that's it.
[00:16:54] Gillian: No, I had the most bizarre dreams. Like I had this dream. Where basically I had the same dream but in different states. So in one dream it was about Sydney. Another dream was about Adelaide, like really weird. And that was all of this. I'd gone into the hospital and my husband had come. In different, Places. I would just say to the people, you just have to let me through the door, whatever the door was. I don't know that bit. Um, and I'll meet Rasmus who have happens to me, how do you say it? He's the
[00:17:36] Jenny: founder of Potential Project.
[00:17:38] Gillian: thank you Jenny. And so I was so sure that I would meet, um, Rasmus and he would tell me what happened next. And it was the real weird thing because it just, it was like hours, an hour, like not, but like just went on for ages. And because of, and is, you know, um, three and a half weeks. It was a really long time.
[00:18:05] Pia: And can you remember waking up the first time you woke up?
[00:18:08] Gillian: Okay, well, I'm not sure. I remember talking or listening to someone, my mum actually, listening to um, Ann of Green Gables. There you go. Mom had decided to buy it because she was sick of just saying other things that are going on in the hospital and blah, blah, blah. She said, I, I'll, I will ring, I will read her this book and I'm going to read it for her until she wakes up or, and we're, and there on afterwards. so yeah, I think it was something like that.
[00:18:44] Pia: that's a bit surreal to wake up to. You've been traveling all around Australia in all those different cities, waiting for your boss to open the door, and then your mom's reading Ann of Green Gables. Whoa.
[00:18:55] Gillian: know that's
[00:18:56] Pia: That, that I think some people would pay, pay for a trip like that actually.
[00:19:00] Dan: A bit trippy.
[00:19:01] Gillian: Yeah. And the real, really weird bit was someone asked me, I was at the end of my, like the end of the trip around Australia, whatever. And someone said are you ready to die? Like, sort of that like, are you ready to die? And I said, oh, well I can come and do whatever you want, but first I've gotta work. I've got to go to, um, north. Northern Territory. There's some, people I need to work with there. And once I've done that, I can work, I can go from this or work well, like I can go and die. So I was like
[00:19:38] Pia: once you've been to Northern Territory, that's a good ad for them, isn't
[00:19:41] Dan: for the top end.
[00:19:42] Gillian: mean, um, And something about Aborigines, but I was very weird. Like, well,
[00:19:49] Pia: I remember a story that my dad told me. So he got injured in the war and got septicemia, and he remembers seeing a war with his name on it, saying You are dead. And he thought. I'm not going to die. And that was apparently the time when his health turned.
[00:20:06] The, the journey when you're doing it on such a granular level, hour by hour, day by day, week by week, you know, you've climbed Everest probably about 10 times since that. Tell us a bit about that journey.
[00:20:20] Gillian: Well for me it was really practical. Can I speak? 'Cause I couldn't speak for the first month, three months, sorry. And so all of that sort of stuff kept really here and now. Like it was really, it's only all about this And then when I was slightly, like maybe four or five months down the track, 'cause I was still in hospital for the eight months. So it was really long. So I started looking at the business, at sort of almost like, from afar because it just, I didn't connected with it. So, Jen, do you wanna talk about. How it was, right. What it was like actually having me so distance.
[00:21:03] Jenny: I just threw myself into it fully. Like I was determined I was gonna be doing everything that I did beforehand, and I was going to do my best to do everything Gill did beforehand as well. So I was very much just fully trying to do everything that I could at that stage.
[00:21:19] And I'd visit Gill in hospital each week and. As Gill has said already, it was about the first three months or more that you couldn't speak because she had the tracheostomy tube in her throat 'cause she couldn't speak during that time. So as far as the business was concerned, I would go along and I'd do my best to tell her about things. But it, they were hard times trying to, for us to both trying to communicate. It was quite one way, because I was saying things but you weren't really able to indicate much back because of the words.
[00:21:50] We had, we had the, a board for a while there that had the letters A, B, C, D, right through to Z and it had a couple of words and we tried to point to the letters to get the words and I took my laptop on one occasion and tried to see if we could communicate that way. But then I remember the day that you could speak because they'd taken the tracheostomy tube out, and it was amazing. It was like a miracle, like one of those moments where something miraculous has happened. A person who couldn't previously speak for some time could now speak.
[00:22:22] And so then we could start to have a conversation back and forth about business, but Gill had so many other things that you needed to focus on and understandably so. But it was lovely at that point to be able to at least be able to tell you a bit about things and answer some of your questions and then start to be able to hook in other people to talk to you. So Rasmus, who Gill was referring to before, our founder of Potential Project, who's based in Denmark, it was great that day that I, I was able to go to the hospital and,
[00:22:53] Dan: he came through the door.
[00:22:54] Jenny: Came through the door. Yeah, well, on this occasion it was just a video call, but that was lovely to start to get that. And of course there was so much love going juul's way from all of our colleagues around the world. We'd set up a WhatsApp group and an email distribution sort of network, and there were vast number of messages going into Gill from our work colleagues around the world, which I hope was helpful for you and I'm sure it was.
[00:23:21] Dan: Gill, I hope this isn't too personal a question, but you had tasks to do. You had functional things to focus on. how were you feeling at that time? what was your mindset like?
[00:23:30] Gillian: The reality is I was really optimistic because my dreams had always been about getting better and getting on with life, or getting to the door, like whatever that door was, I was at the door So I really felt that at some stage I will be better. And it was a bit, I mean even now I have a slight load of maybe like going on in my head, but the reality is by about, five months or so, five to eight months, I started to realize actually, I'm not going to get better, so I'm not going get better in my, my, arm doesn't work at all. Like I just, I could show you that it just hangs there. In fact, it doesn't hang there. It kind of curls up. And so that's a bit devastating.
[00:24:22] Basically my leg, I can use my hip, but I can't do anything my, my leg or my feet. So all of that has to be kind of like, basically I have a shuffle where I drag my foot along the ground, and so that's reality.
[00:24:43] When I started, I couldn't speak very much. I said, it's so nice, Jen, that you say we had these magical moments. I still couldn't actually speak very much though. It was like, um, I've got, like, people said, okay, you are good at this. You can do the three syllable words. And I sat, I cannot tell you, I sat and sat and went them all and read them all. And I would have, say five times to get it right. So it would be what? Uh. Oh, straight. Like it was so, it was so, just so at the start, it was really bad. It got better throughout the, um, the, about the trial, throughout the time as gone on. But it, yeah, a lot of stuff like that was little by little.
[00:25:35] Pia: And that's incredible patience. Because you could, when you get such a shock to the system, and you grieve the body and the what you did, that can it could just be such a brutal, emotional and mental journey.
[00:25:49] Gillian: And, and I think hope is a thing that you hang on to. And I think Jen and I have talked a lot about helpful and hopeful and acceptance, acceptance. That's right. Um, And how it is important to have both of those, because you can actually be too helpful, too hopeful. And that's just stupid. But you need to be accepting for what it's like today.
[00:26:18] And that it's so easy to say, like, I would've used to give speeches on hopeful and acceptance. And like, I, now I think, oh, what the hell you knew, knew nothing about. That is really lovely. Thank you. Thanks very much. You have no idea.
[00:26:38] Dan: Your profession and your passion gave you a good set of mental tools. You've sort of touched on this. You have no comparison with someone who doesn't have those, but how do you use those, that toolkit if you like, and that may not even be the right word, but I hope you know what I'm referring to, these abilities, sort of, of awareness and so on. So how did you use those to get through this difficult time? And Jenny, you may also have some thoughts. I'm sure you've talked about along the way.
[00:27:03] Gillian: Because I did mindfulness or sort of my whole life, my whole, like every moment was being in the moment. So like, it was good for the first three months, but then I thought that I'd forgotten how to do mindfulness, and I just forgot about it for another five months. Like I didn't even remember that I did mindfulness. So it was like, what the hell? I Oh, that's right. I used to do this.
[00:27:34] Dan: I know this.
[00:27:36] Gillian: So I'm really, I don't know what that's about, but that was really hard. And then for the next maybe, probably, it's been about three months that I've been actually more on the wagon and doing it every day. But before that, it was really hard because in my life I have, I get up, say hi to my son as he goes on to school. the, carer comes in, does something with me till you know, 12 o'clock or 1230, and then I have a downtime and then three to six another carer comes.
[00:28:14] That's been such a long time. I've just been so, overcome with those sorts of like doing stuff. And so it's only been in the last three months that I've actually been able to say, actually this matters to me and I'm going to keep trying it.
[00:28:32] Jenny: And I think as well the muscle memory that you've got of, all of the mindfulness practicing that you've done in the past or just being mindful, but more than that, it's everything else that goes around with it. The understanding of, even though you said that you didn't know really anything about acceptance beforehand, but you still brought that into your life, the acceptance, just that patience with what you were having to deal with. I just saw that in spades with Gill. There was just. So much of those mental strategies accompanying the work that we do and the way that we aim to live, that you certainly lived during that time
[00:29:12] Gillian: Well that's good that you should see it because I didn't really feel it, but yes, I feel I
[00:29:18] Jenny: Yeah, I could see it most definitely. Yeah. And you've talked about active hope, which was not just that you were hopeful for the future, but you were looking at what is the thing that I can do today? Even if that thing today is something quite small, at least it's something that I can do. If it's the speaking exercise, if it's that little bit of movement I think that's good for all of us to remember that maybe we don't have to conquer Everest like you've talked about beforehand, but we can at least do something in the direction of where we wanna head.
[00:29:46] Gillian: Yeah. That's right. It sounds so much, um, admirable when you talk about it, Jimmy.
[00:29:53] Pia: And what's. what's changed about the relationship you have now with the team that has to support you at home and Jenny at work? And what's changed in you and what's stayed the same?
[00:30:07] Gillian: I've got, we've got a whole new person in our life called a carer. And so every day they come, and I feel about, I feel glad about that because it means that I don't have to put pressure on my family to look after me. But at the same time, they hate it that we have the thing. And like the 14-year-old says, tell me which one's come today 'cause I'll tell you whether I like them or not. Like this whole new thing. We've got a whole thing.
[00:30:41] And so, My husband, without exception, deserves an award. Like he's just been over and above the most amazing friend. We'd been together for 20 years and I thought I knew him. if the same thing that happened to me actually happened to him, I don't know that I would've been still around. I don't know how it would've gone, but how it is now is absolutely amazing.
[00:31:14] Jenny: It is so strengthened your relationship.
[00:31:17] Gillian: Absolutely. Actually losing all your capacity to make money and making yourself refundable on somebody else is the most, biggest lesson for me. I'm really kind of embarrassed about it that I had thought that it didn't matter whether or not my husband made money because I made the money for the family and he could lose a job, get a job, whatever.
[00:31:44] And, and the reality was he really struggled for a long time at getting a job and keeping a job and stuff it was really hard time. And so I wouldn't have thought that he would actually. Be able to make it work. And the fact that he has, and he also has kept my son together, and we, you know, we had to move, we had six weeks to move the house where we were in Crows Nest, where we, own a place to a apartment because that's the reality. We can't live in the house anymore, because I can't climb stairs.
[00:32:28] And so, he had to do that in six weeks. So he so many things that he's had to manage that I'm just hats on. But also, my heart's open to him in a way that it never was before.
[00:32:44] Pia: I mean, that's leaves me to think, well, that full circle on compassion, it's like a whole different level, isn't it?
[00:32:50] Gillian: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm still working on that.
[00:32:54] Pia: Yeah. Well,
[00:32:55] Gillian: I, yeah, and, and you're right, it is. It's absolutely what, what it almost like it's, I know it's what should happen, but it is actually having to learn out how to do it all over again.
[00:33:10] Dan: And so in the broader community, you are now what we would call a disabled person. You know, you're sort of, you I guess that's how you're seen, and before you were phenomenally not, uh, you know, so if physically very able and, uh, how has that, what's that transition been like?
[00:33:28] Gillian: You know, I can't get outta bed without having chew on. I can't, Have a shower without having a, um, brace on my arm. I can't, um, when I go outside, I can go to the grocery shopping or the cafe, but that's because they're within one building either side of it. if we go anywhere else, we have to have a wheelchair.
[00:33:53] And it feels like in North Sydney, there's not many people. I think there's two people that I've met that have been, disabled visually. So I know incredible number of people are disabled in a different way. it's made me feel a bit lonely and stuff, and Jenny's been great at trying to help me find other people that are also a wheelchair. and that's great, but there's also a reality of I'm different. And so people make some different abuse, different, what is it called?
[00:34:30] Jenny: So I think you mean they're making assumptions about you and they're forming opinions about you based purely on what they're seeing or maybe what they're hearing and not understanding the bigger.
[00:34:41] I remember when you said to me the first time in your wheelchair with assistance, you got on a bus, and I don't know if you've done it more than once now, and if I remember correctly, there was someone who maybe was a bit impatient or something, but the thing that I remember you saying was what they didn't know was that this was my first time of having to do this.
[00:35:00] And in some ways it highlighted the assumptions and the lack of patience. And yet we've also got stories of such Love and contribution and giving that I think would be really important to talk about as well.
[00:35:13] Gillian: That's right. Yeah, that's right. People just don't know. Um, not, nor they should, should they, like, in some ways I don't want them to know either. But the reality is what are all, all of the things that you have to go through each day just to even go to the shop.
[00:35:31] Pia: The effort that is required. And you've talked to me about this. So, sometimes, it seems like your speech can be impacted a little bit by, and, um, and so yeah, what are some of your beliefs have you challenged with that? Because I imagine that's, I mean, God, I have days, well, I can't, that's called a menopause. Can't remember half the words that I'm meant to be saying. So I must be, that's something to really adjust to for somebody who was incredibly articulate. It's not that you're not articulate, but it was easy. It was just easy, whereas now you've gotta work.
[00:36:06] Gillian: Absolutely. and there didn't mention, I'm, Jenny mentioned that I'm writing a book and I dunno whether I'll end up with the book, but I'm starting to write down the story. And, I can't tell you every single word requires me to say it out loud to try and remember how would you spell it.
[00:36:28] It's like to, like today I was talking about work and so even the work, the, the, the thing of work, like W, O, R, R? R, K, all of that. And it's like, like that is real. That is, so I would, it'll take me two, half an hour to write two paragraphs. It's exhausting,
[00:36:55] At the moment, it's what I can do. So in, in some ways it's like, well, I'm doing it anyway because like there's like, I'm not gonna get the book any time soon, but I can, and I can. I know you can use. speaker to text, you know, that thing? Anyway, talk to ta text, but I can't see the, I can't see the words before I think of them. So actually that doesn't necessarily help because I dunno what I want to say. So it's interesting because it means I have to actually write, I mean, I have to do, and I use what funny, I have to do it with my left, uh, thumb. And the thumb is on the non do dominance,
[00:37:44] Pia: Dominant
[00:37:45] Gillian: hand
[00:37:45] Pia: Oh, so is it the opposite part of the brain?
[00:37:48] Gillian: Uh, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I, like all of my right hand has been blocked completely,
[00:37:56] Pia: And what has happened to, in the stroke? What actually physically happens to the brain?
[00:38:01] Gillian: No, so this is an interesting thing. They, um, so show you pictures of your brain and like, probably about Halfway in, from your face to your back, it's about the middle of your head. So if that gives you an indication. And, it's unclear how much of the brain was actually, what actually happened. So like, we can see it, but we don't know exactly what things are that will be permanent or things that we will back sometime. There's movement, eyes, like your, it shuts down about a quarter of my eye on both sides, but that you can't see on your right. All of these things that we just go, oh, what a pain.
[00:38:55] Pia: Sometimes, really understanding what happens at that moment. Like you're just about to do a presentation and then, you get a blockage,
[00:39:02] Jenny: And a bleed.
[00:39:03] Pia: You know, that's the, that's the mechanics of it.
[00:39:06] Jenny: Before we leave the what's happened in the past, one thing that I think is really worth mentioning, and this really ties into the We Not Me, is that there was a great outreaching of support from Gill's million friends because she has been someone who has given of herself so significantly to people throughout her life, and all of these people really wanted to be able to give back to Gill in some way.
[00:39:29] And Gill also saw that she had an opportunity to. Attend some quite groundbreaking rehab that was being held in Cyprus actually last year. And so we did some fundraising and just to see the significant support of people to help Gill to get there. And so Gill and I both went to Cyprus last year for her to access this rehab, which was an opportunity for you to really experience some hope there. And the hope that you've still got in addition to everything else. But is this. Treatment in America that you're looking at doing as well.
[00:40:03] Gillian: Yeah, so there's been, a trial in Australia, which has been seeing this, that, um, you can start to take for arthritis, and it's very well known. If you take that same drug, but in a different way. You take it under in your neck, under your skin, they believe it's actually, takes, is it helps people, people who've had stroke.
[00:40:30] And so, so it's like, it's so weird because you watch the videos and there are hundreds of them where they're given this drug and literally. It almost wakes them up. It, it's, they can have like their their muscles in their arm start to work. And maybe there's their your leg and your your feet no longer, uh, having, a droop. Uh, like so many, and it happens within three minutes. I just don't believe that can be possible. How can it possibly be belief? And what it is it's an anti floral. Does anyone know? Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And if any of the things about your brain are relating to that that,
[00:41:24] Jenny: inflammation?
[00:41:26] Gillian: Thank you. That can be a almost in instant it goes away. So I'm Like, it's so incredible. I just don't believe it. But people have done it in Australia and they're doing a trial, and the trial is finished, but they'll find out what they find out. But, there is the same doctor in America doing it. And so for me it feels like. even if I went and got some help and it got rid of my pain, for example. that'd be worth it.
[00:41:59] Pia: That sounds amazing, Gill. So we wish you every luck with that, that therapy going forward. Jenny, what about Potential Project?
[00:42:07] Jenny: I'm so excited for what we are continuing to do with Potential Project here in Australia. We've got some great contracts that we're working on with some fabulous clients, and it's just so wonderful to see the impact that this work is continuing to have with people out in the world. So it's a great opportunity for Gill to come back to when she's ready.
[00:42:28] And as well, we are able to work with clients, particularly for those who are wanting to hear about people who are putting things like acceptance and patience and living with the difficulty into action. So yes, Gill and I are working together now, and yet when she's ready to come back, there's a very thriving business that's there going ahead, and I'm loving the work that we're doing and the difference that we are making.
[00:42:50] Pia: I'm excited too and I am just blown away. Well blown away by your openness. So thank you for just bringing us into that story. 'Cause I think that's an incredible privilege. To hear it, to understand it, and it could be any of us. But your grace and your bravery are amazing. So, you know, as a, mate, I'm, I am, yeah, very touched and I know that, I'm sure that our listeners listening to this will also be touched by this. So, you know,
[00:43:19] Gillian: you.
[00:43:20] Pia: keep going girl. Keep going.
[00:43:22] Dan: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and I'm sure that everyone listening will hope that if anything like that does happen, they've got someone like Jenny and Steve alongside them to guide them through it. It's a lovely We Not Me story. So thank you. Really amazing. Thank you for being on our hundredth episode, Gill and Jenny. It's been, a joy and many other emotions to have you on the show. So, uh, thank you. It's been wonderful.
[00:43:44] Jenny: for inviting us.
[00:43:45] Gillian: Thanks, so bye.
[00:43:47] Pia: I think both of us were pretty moved actually listening to her. You know, we know her as a dear friend. I. But to, be able to ask sort of those types of questions that, you know, maybe you might not have had the opportunity to ask was an incredible privilege.
[00:44:04] I was really struck that whilst it's a singular person's journey, there's lots of, we, not me moments, you know, right at the point when, um, you really want at the point where you are having a stroke that somebody is next to you going, I think you're having a stroke and actually does the appropriate thing to save your life essentially, 'cause I think it's a ticking bomb. with something like that and being able to act really quickly and know what was going on.
[00:44:29] And then her wonderful husband, Steve, who, you know, it was a really dear thing to hear that relationship hadn't been pulled apart by a traumatic event, they'd actually, they'd found a, a different level to relate to one another and probably a different level of love and respect. And that was really heartwarming,
[00:44:47] Dan: So impressive. And, yeah, I, uh, since we spoke to her, it's been, she's been on my mind a lot and I just, um, keep coming back to this amazing lightness with which she deals with this, I'm sure she has dark times as well, but, you know, that sort of struggling for words. The way that she has a little chuckle to herself or a giggle about using the wrong word, or when she gives up and someone has to cue it up for her, I think that lightness is impressive.
[00:45:13] And actually, I suspect she might be underestimating that mental toolkit that she had, that, that way of dealing with things, which she'd worked on through her life and, and this brain that's now been walloped by this, the rest of it I think is working exceptionally well and is in such, was in such a healthy shape in terms of the way that she copes with challenges that it was wonderful to see that.
[00:45:36] Pia: And I think also you know, you're reminded that it is a lonely journey. Even when you're surrounded by people, you are on that, you know, you're first on the bus, you're the first time you get out to the cafe, the first this, that, and the other, you know? To get that independence back. It's a slog, but, an incredibly graceful human being. Just the grace of the way.
[00:45:57] Not, not trying to downplay that actually, it isn't utterly shit some of the time. Like she could be really like, you can't, but there's a chink of light always somewhere in this whole thing.. and she's alive. And I think she's, knowing her. she's gonna do some amazing things. You know, it's still early days.
[00:46:16] Dan: What a way to celebrate our hundredth episode. And, uh, thank you to Gillian and I I I really also, just before we close, really want to mention Jenny as well. I just found that she was just an exceptional, support her in this. But I really actually liked the way that in the preparation for the show, she was owning that space and making sure that Gill had the support that she needed and the space to be her.
[00:46:39] There was a sort of dealings there that was required at the time just to make sure that we had our act together around this. And, you know, sometimes you need to do that in a group is just crank it up a little bit to say these things have to happen. And, and she's so lovely as well, but I thought she was just clearly an exceptional person and Gill is lucky to have her as a, as a business partner as well.
[00:46:58] So, um, thank you to both of them. But that is it for this episode. Uh We Not Me is supported by Squadify. Squadify gives you and your team the data they need to connect and perform. You can find show notes where you are listening and also at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. We Not Me is produced by the wonderful Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:47:23] Pia: And it is goodbye from me.