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In this week's episode Pastor Matt Brown, Justin Pardee and Stephanie Keen walk through Luke 15 and discuss the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, what it means to count the cost of following Jesus, the movie Risen, C.S. Lewis, how God likes to party and who the older brother represents in the parable of the prodigal son.
Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
We went to a place. He took me to this place for coffee. I kid you not, you walk in, it's a coffee bar, a real bar, a restaurant, a bowling alley, and it has a swimming pool.
Justin Pardee:Are you describing heaven?
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. I know. Was like, that sounds like
Matt Brown:That's why I told Wyatt. This is some rich guy's version of heaven and he he built this place.
Justin Pardee:Dude, the only thing that is missing is a little Oompa Loompa in the corner making chocolates and inviting me to jump into a chocolate river. Well, hey, everybody and welcome to The Debrief, a weekly q and a podcast from your friends here at Sandals Church. I am smooth. Justin Pardee?
Stephanie Schaefer:I'm regular old Stephanie Keen.
Justin Pardee:And we are hanging out here with the soulful voice, pastor Matt Brown.
Matt Brown:Glad to be here. Love you guys. Thanks for listening.
Justin Pardee:Yes. Well, hey, we are continuing our streak of five star only reviews in iTunes
Stephanie Schaefer:I feel
Justin Pardee:so which is great so far. We're up to a 122, and I'm just praying, man, that we continue on with only five stars. Because at some point, somebody's gonna come along just to be a stinker and leave us with a number one. But in the meantime, we celebrate and we thank the Lord for his many blessings. And two of my favorite reviews that came in over this last week, one was from g g quilts and this is what she says, I hope the debrief continues way past the end of 252.
Justin Pardee:What are your thoughts on that?
Matt Brown:Yeah. If people keep listening and we'll keep doing it.
Justin Pardee:Alright. We'll keep going strong into the future. And then, Rockabelly Aldana, she said, blah blah blah, a bunch of great stuff. PS, you guys are hilarious to which I say, you're welcome.
Stephanie Schaefer:He tried to salute you but you can't see that.
Justin Pardee:Oh, yes. Salute. I did that. We're on radio, bro. Yeah.
Justin Pardee:I don't know. Man, I just wanted her to feel what was in my heart.
Stephanie Schaefer:I I let her know.
Matt Brown:Yeah. For that to happen, you need to use words.
Justin Pardee:Okay. Great. I salute you.
Matt Brown:Well,
Justin Pardee:here on the debrief, we are super excited to take your questions every single week.
Stephanie Schaefer:We sure are. So if you want to submit a question to here here on the debrief, just send that in at sandals church dot com slash the debrief and we will get your questions in front of pastor Matt.
Justin Pardee:Excellent. So you're ready to jump in to some q and a, p Matt? Alright. So, we got a couple of questions based on some last episodes. So we're gonna do some follow-up here on that.
Justin Pardee:So this one came in from Ryan. Here we go. In an earlier episode, you used the term cult when discussing Jehovah's Witness members and you cited their use of a different bible or book as one of the reasons for giving them that label. So the LDS community or Mormons, refer to themselves as Christians, but they also have a different book and prophets that they follow. So would you use the same label for Mormons?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So first off, let's go back to Jehovah's Witnesses don't have a separate bible. What they do is their Watchtower Society in New York City, just on the other side of the bridge, I believe it's in Brooklyn, they have a group of translators that translate the Bible into their own translation. So they have the Bible, but they translate it into their own translation. And what they do is they don't publish their, I may be incorrect, but the last time I checked, they don't publish their scholars, we don't know where they are.
Matt Brown:And they don't they don't open the process up to people who are educated, you know, across a various scope of denominations. And so it's a it's a really an in house project. And so they do that because there's they don't believe that Jesus is God, they believe that He's an angel, and so they have to manipulate and massage the scriptures to communicate what they believe. And so so yeah, I use that word. So and again, let me just say this, Job witnesses, great people, faithful people, work really hard, a lot harder than a lot of us at Sandals do Mhmm.
Matt Brown:To share God's word and share what we believe. And so we need to be careful that we don't ridicule or put them down or whatever, but we do disagree with them theologically. And Christianity as a whole, this is not just Sandals Church, has not accepted them as a Christian denomination. And the same is true with Mormons. And so Mormons are a little more outright in their specific rejection of traditional Christianity.
Matt Brown:I mean, Joseph Smith, when he received his original re revelation Mhmm. From the angel Moroni, states that all religions, all all Christian denominations have gone astray. And so from the very onset, Mormonism has sought to be its own thing. And so in in Joseph Smith's eyes, he was trying to reestablish the church, that's why they're the Latter day Saints. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so but in reality what he did is he created a new religion known as Mormonism. And so ultimately, know, Mormons were very very exclusive in terms of, you know, they didn't function or operate with other Christians. They're changing that, that's why you don't hear the word Mormon anymore, it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Yeah. You're seeing less and less of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and more and more of Jesus.
Matt Brown:And so Mormons have worked very very hard at sounding very very Christian. But the reality is, is once you get beneath the surface, there's very very different things. And so Mormons are great people, we love our Mormon neighbors, we wish them the best. They're great Americans, they're great philanthropists, they're generous people, they're wonderful people, so we don't want to say anything bad about them at all as people, but we do believe that they would fall into the realm of a cult. And by that, they have their own rules, they have their own teachings, they are not a Christian denomination.
Matt Brown:And so, whereas the Jehovah Witnesses don't believe that Jesus Christ is God, Mormons believe that He is God, but He's one of many gods. And for us as Christians, we believe in one God who exists in three persons. And we don't understand exactly how that works out, but somehow God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and those three distinct personality and or persons, are separate in their personality, but they are not, separate in their person. And I realize that's really confusing, but that's what, you know, the Christian scholars for the last about sixteen hundred years have hammered out, and that's that's been the Christian testimony. And so we don't believe in the Trinity because we want to, but we believe in the Trinity because that's what the Bible communicates, this idea of one God in three persons.
Matt Brown:And God will explain all of that, and we'll figure that all out when he returns. And so, you know, we just accept that by faith, and so, you know, again, Mormons are great people, but yes, they have their own books, they have their own teachings and their own rules, and and for the most part, they're great people because they believe that they're saved by works. Mhmm. And so they're they're trying to earn their salvation, which looks different from what ours looks like, but they're trying to earn it. And so they're working hard to be the very best people they can be, and that's great.
Matt Brown:The problem is the gospel says no matter how hard you work, you can never be as good as you need to be, and that's why Jesus Christ died. You know, there's some other distinctions. I believe that Mormons believe that the moment Christ sweat blood, that our sins were paid for, we disagree with that. Jesus Christ had to die on the cross. And so it was His death on the cross that we preach, and that's why Paul says we preach Him crucified.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, we have some some distinctions there, and, you know, Mormons have tried to be different. They don't put crosses anywhere, they have a stake. You know, it's like this stick standing out of their things. Don't they don't rally around the cross. And so they have their own reasons for that, but that's just to say that they see themselves, if they're honest, and they will they will admit that they are different.
Matt Brown:Yeah. And so, and I think that's a good thing. And so, like I said, we wish them well, you know, they're great neighbors, they're great Americans, great citizens, great people, but we're not saved because of our comparable greatness to each other. We are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for us on the cross. And so ultimately, that's what we're talking about.
Matt Brown:We're not comparing ourselves to each other, but we're comparing ourselves to Jesus. So
Justin Pardee:So really quickly, you talked about the Jehovah's Witness having the separate translation. We have a couple different translations of the Bible that we look to. Right. The difference there being Yeah. How they're formed?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So the difference is is that their process for translation is an open process.
Justin Pardee:Okay.
Matt Brown:They bring in scholars from all walks of life, all denominations, they come together, you know, you have people from different opinions that come together to create what they believe is the best, it goes to committee, you know, they wrestle over it, and they try to come up with, you know, the best translation possible. And what's neat is, whatever just like in our Supreme Court, so our Supreme Court, there's a ruling, you know, I'm gonna use this example, forgive me, but the issue of gay marriage, right? Sure. So gay marriage is now the law of the land. I'm not making a statement on whether that's good, right, wrong, or indifferent.
Matt Brown:We believe that marriage is between man and woman, and that's what the Bible teaches. However, the Supreme Court entered their ruling. And so you had five justices who said that they believe that it's right. You had four dissenting justices. And so the beauty of Christian denominations is is when there's a translation and there's a disagreement, they will put whatever the five scholars, you know, the Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Whatever the majority of the vote was, they'll put that translation in. But in the subtext, you know, down below, the minority opinion will be down there, and they'll say, we think it could also mean this. And so there's a transparency and an authenticity to the translation, whereas what the cults tend to do is this is the only translation.
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Matt Brown:This is the only way. And so here's why we need to have multiple translations, and it's gotten carried away. But the reality is, we don't use the King James English. We just don't. We don't talk that way, you know, it's Shakespearean English.
Matt Brown:And so what happens is, and the reason I don't preach from it, is because then what you have to do is you have to translate the English into a modern language that we can understand. And so what what translations are trying to do is because all language evolves, it's always changing, it's always developing, you know, it's it's always morphing. And so we think about just like the word gay. For for most of American history, it meant happy, good time.
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Matt Brown:And now that word means a a sexual identity, you know, homosexual identity. Right. And so the word is completely changing its meaning, and so same word, but the meaning has changed. So what the translations are trying to do is they're trying to keep up with English as it changes. And I think that's a good thing, and so it's a helpful thing.
Matt Brown:Yeah. It's gotten out of control. And the other thing, the bottom line is, right, the Bible's the most sold book in the history of the world. So unfortunately, there's money involved. And so translations make a lot of money.
Matt Brown:And so like, you know, my denomination Baptist, they came out with their own translation, the Broadman Holman, or no.
Justin Pardee:HCSB or
Matt Brown:something Yeah. Like It's called Hardcore Southern Baptist translation. That's right. No. So it's the Holman standard.
Justin Pardee:Something like that.
Matt Brown:HSE. Anyways, they did that because the Sunday school board has to pay NIV rights for using their translation, and it got very very expensive. And so it became cheaper.
Justin Pardee:Holman Christian Standard
Matt Brown:Bible. Holman Christian Standard Bible, or hardcore. Yeah. Like that one better. So they came up with their own translation so they don't have to pay NIV all those royalties.
Justin Pardee:Boom. Well, take it NIV. Yeah. Hey, so this next question, I'm very excited. You guys remember from his fantastic review, Undercover Eskimo?
Justin Pardee:Well, he's back with a question.
Matt Brown:Yes. He has come out from the Eskimo.
Stephanie Schaefer:And he told us his name is John.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. That's right, dude.
Stephanie Schaefer:So, John says that in Luke 13, Jesus tells the parable of the great feast.
Justin Pardee:The book And that's what you preached on like Yeah.
Stephanie Schaefer:Two weeks ago? Yes. The book Matthew recounts a very similar parable told by Jesus in Matthew 22, but it ends with one guest not being properly dressed and seemingly thrown into hell because of it. Here's the verse. But when the king came in to meet the guest, he noticed a man who wasn't wearing the proper clothes for a wedding.
Stephanie Schaefer:Friend, he asked, how is it that you were here without wedding clothes? But the man had no reply. Then the king said to his aides, bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen. What did he mean by all that?
Stephanie Schaefer:Is there a different audience or scenario that than the parable that we read about in Luke?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Absolutely. And so you need to understand this. So, you know, each gospel author is trying to commute communicate a specific point. So Matthew is writing primarily to a Jewish audience, where Luke is writing primarily to a non Jewish audience.
Matt Brown:And so so there's a couple things that work here. So even when I preach my messages, I can preach the same message very differently when I preach to our college and young adults crowd, versus maybe how I would preach it to the cultivate, you know, women's crowd versus, you know, talking to pipeline, and that's just within the context of our church. I would completely flip it, my examples, my illustrations, like if I spoke in Idaho. And so as Jesus travels for three years, you know, he's talking about the same principles over and over and over again, right? Because he doesn't just say it's something once, and you get it down, he was talking about, you know, his agenda.
Matt Brown:And just like a politician, right, a politician travels from state to state, and goes Yeah, and just upset. And we everybody gets upset. Well, they're saying the same things over and over, and it's like, yeah, but they're saying the same thing to different Yeah. And they're adjusting it. And so Jesus is is is sharing the same principle, the same story, but he's adjusting it to the audience in a way that specifically communicates what they need to hear, or maybe communicates a specific twist on the end of the story that they need to hear.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, we need to interpret these stories separately, and we need to consider them. Although the story is the same, we need to understand that there's different points here. So in Matthew, you know, it's a very very confusing thing, because this guy gets into the party, which is weird, and then the king shows up, and he's in improperly dressed. And so we have to be really, really careful as we we unpack that story, because, you know, pastors will get into, well, you know, typically the history of, you know, parties, the king would provide clothing for people to wear, and and and we don't know that. All we know is that he was supposed to be wearing something.
Matt Brown:He was supposed to be wearing some kind of outfit that was expected to be worn at this party. Mhmm. And we know that he knows this because when he says, why don't you have it? He says nothing. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:There's no reply. He doesn't say, didn't know. He doesn't say, I didn't get it. It didn't come in the mail. Like, has nothing to say because he knows that he has violated the principles by which you can be a part of this party, and so he's thrown out.
Matt Brown:What's weird in that verse is Jesus calls him friend. Mhmm. And the kings refers to him as friend. So so that that's a little complex there. And so I think it shows God's heart is, look, man, I I wanted you to be here.
Matt Brown:You were invited to be here, but you have chosen, for whatever reason, to not participate in this party, and you've not chosen to to to put on the clothing that's been requested. And so we need to understand this, no one is getting into the party that Jesus is throwing, unless they are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. And so that's our covering. That is the robe that we wear. Revelation talks about the robe that Christ wear wears is a robe dipped in blood, and it's his blood.
Matt Brown:And and that is how we get into this great banquet, this great feast. You know, ultimately, the end of time is this wedding between Christ and his church, this marriage between God and earth, what was always supposed to be. There's this separation between heaven and earth, and all of human history is moving towards this place where we will be one once again, where all brokenness will be healed by God's beauty. But the mechanism by which that happens is the blood of Jesus Christ. That is the covering one needs.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, Matthew is writing to Jews, and so what Jews need to understand is they must be covered as well in the blood of Jesus. And they don't get to choose the wedding attire, the king does. And so God will choose the mechanism by which people are saved. And so, yeah, it's a different story, and you guys are stumping me, Eskimo, with, you know, questions on different gospels. But we just need to understand that that Jesus can tell the same story with a different point in a different gospel.
Matt Brown:And and he's free to do that. Right? He's God. So
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Totally. I love that. Okay. So here's another one we have from Mark, and man, this is such a good question.
Justin Pardee:So Luke fourteen thirty or yeah. Luke fourteen thirty three, Jesus says, you cannot become my disciple without giving up everything your own. Mark wrote in and he said, there are people in our church that have literally given up everything to go on mission for potentially a lifetime. If I'm not willing to do that, should I question my devotion to Jesus, or is this just a reminder to make sure that Jesus is taking top priority in my life?
Matt Brown:Well, it's both literal and figurative. So we're all called to the same thing. We're all called to abandon everything and to follow Christ. And so we we dealt with it, you know, the passage, I don't remember if it was in 14 or 13, but where Jesus says, unless you hate your mother and brothers for my sake. And so what he's trying to do is he's trying to contrast the level of love and devotion that we must have for Jesus in comparison to everything else.
Matt Brown:And so we can't add Jesus to our life. What you know, inviting Jesus into our life is subtracting everything else. And so he we're we're going to be a slave to something. We're going to be a slave to things, to ourselves, to someone else, or we're gonna be a slave to Jesus. We're all going to be slaves.
Matt Brown:The question is what are you gonna be a slave to? And so we need to be a slave to Jesus, right, because he's the good master, he calls his friend, he loves us, he cares for us, he provides for us, he does all these things. But ultimately, he's not in this position where He's gonna negotiate with us. And I think that's the principle. And so many Christians are so frustrated because God's not doing what they want Him to do.
Matt Brown:And and the reason they're frustrated is they they fail to understand, you know, the the contract of the gospel, right? Die to self. Mhmm. Die to yourself and come follow me. And so this is something that's repeated over and over again, that's said in multiple different ways.
Matt Brown:And so what's sad is, is that we see that this is something that missionaries do, and we don't see it something that we should do. And so the reality is, my house, my cars, my money, everything that I own is Jesus'. If he asks for it, you know, I give it. So, you know, my wife and I, we tithe to the church. When when missionaries need support, we try to we try to be a financial support to them.
Matt Brown:When the church needs a building, right? Those are those are my responsibilities, because everything I own is Christ. And so I don't pray about whether or not I give, I pray about whether, you know, what is the amount that God is asking me to give, and we try to do that. And so everybody should do that. You know, your job is a resource.
Matt Brown:I mean, the the reason you go to work, the reason that you, you know, do so many things that you don't wanna do, because a lot people work jobs that they can't stand. Yeah. The reason you do that is so that you can fund the ministry of your king. Mhmm. So that you can see souls saved.
Matt Brown:That's why we do it. I I I, you know, I I'm not I don't wanna work my job so that I can make a bunch of money and retire and go sit on a beach. There are some people that think that's heaven. I think they're gonna be very very disappointed for all of history, you know, all eternity, because they they chose unwisely. Yeah.
Matt Brown:And, you know, think about the pearl the the story of the pearl of a great price. You know, once you discover a field with this pearl in it, right, you sell everything that you have to buy that, or excuse me, I'm mixing the stories up. Once you find this pearl, you sell everything to go. Get that pearl, or if you find a treasure in the field, sell everything you have so you can get the treasure. And the truth is Jesus is the pearl, Jesus is the treasure, and so we have to abandon everything for him.
Matt Brown:And so this is the run of the mill, typical calling for all of us, and we all have to ask ourselves this question, you know, have I have I given up everything? Have I died to self? And Jesus says, right, you're a fool if you don't first count the cost before you build a tower. He says that you have to count the cost before you say yes to Jesus. And so, you know, it's an amazing thing.
Matt Brown:We don't we don't earn our salvation, but at the same point, it costs you everything.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:I mean, what you're giving up is your life to inherit your soul. And I think it's a great exchange.
Stephanie Schaefer:So For maybe some folks who are listening in who maybe haven't decided to start following Jesus yet, What are some ways that they can look into counting the cost?
Matt Brown:Right. And so so there's two different callings that Jesus gives. You know, the first is come and see. And so that's why we need to be so so careful. So I so the come and die, which we're talking about, that's for believers.
Matt Brown:The come and see is, come check me out. You know, come to me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew eleven twenty eight and twenty nine. Come and see that I'm good. So that's part of counting the cost, right, is seeing what is the reward.
Matt Brown:What is the benefit? What do I get out of this? Well, you get Jesus. You become an heir to the king of kings and the lord of lords. You become a child of God, and you inherit everything that he has that he's going to share with you.
Matt Brown:Right? It's a good deal. Mhmm. But in order to get all that he has, you must give give up all that you have. And it's this great exchange.
Matt Brown:And so the first thing is is you've got to come and see that the Lord is good. You know, God is saying, you know, I I wanna show you all these things. So so for the person that's not a Christian, I would say go slow, take your time, you know, keep praying, and and and evaluate, is this something that you want to exchange? Is this something that you want to be a part of? I think, you know, coming and dying is a small price to pay for eternal life.
Matt Brown:I mean, it's like, you know, Justin, you give me $1, and I'm gonna give you a billion. I mean, right? It it's a ridiculous exchange, and yet people hold on to that dollar so tightly. Oh, I don't know. I don't know if I'm gonna give up this buck.
Matt Brown:And it's like, are you kidding me? In comparison to what you're you're gonna get. The apostle Paul says, you know, he's given up everything. Position, title, finances, reputation, marriage. He give up everything, and he says he considers all things scubaolin, and that word is human excrement, you know, or crap.
Matt Brown:He compares everything in the world to crap in comparison to what he has in Jesus Christ. And so when he evaluated, he's like, of course you can have this poo. Absolutely. Because that's what it is in comparison to what Christ Jesus is offering me. And so I think the reason that Christians struggle with this is they haven't really evaluated what it is that God's offering.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. You know? And so so what's amazing is, you know, the game shows where do you want what's in your hand or behind door number two? Yeah. What's amazing is God shows us what's behind door number two.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. You know, Psalm sixteen nine, pleasures forevermore are at the right hand of God. Eternal pleasure is at God's right hand.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:He's telling you, everything that you want is behind door number two, or you can keep what's in your hand. And what's so sad is, right, the rich young ruler keeps what's in his hand. The Pharisees, they keep their power in their hand. You know, people take their sexuality, well, this is who I am, and they keep that in their hand, and they say no to Jesus. And Paul says, I said no to all those things.
Matt Brown:Why? Because he found the treasure. He found the pearl of great price. And to him, he's not the fool, we are. And so so that's what I would say is is, you know, for those of you who are not a Christian yet, it's really cool you're listening to this.
Matt Brown:Mean, that's cool. Have Christians that we can't even get
Justin Pardee:to They're listen priced to tuned in for
Matt Brown:the Yeah.
Justin Pardee:Sweet jokes.
Matt Brown:Yeah. So just check Jesus out. So the movie Risen that came out, I didn't like it. But I I would definitely see it. And the thing I like I liked about the movie Risen is, the first portion of the movie is really cool.
Matt Brown:It's like CSI Jerusalem. They're trying to, you know, find this missing dude named Yeshua. And it's really really cool, and so the Roman soldiers are trying to to find him. But then it ends with his resurrection. And the thing I liked about it is they made him so compelling.
Stephanie Schaefer:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Like, everyone says, like, why they're like, why would you give your life for him? And they're like, well, have you met him? Because once you meet him, you're gonna know, and that whole movie flips, because instantly the Roman soldier is willing to give up everything, reputation, salary, safety, everything, just to be with Jesus. Because he's so compelling. So it's not a great movie, I would give it like a b.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. But but I like how they presented Jesus. It's a little weird though, because Jesus is one of my favorite characters on The Fear of the Walking Dead. So he's he's the English teacher in The Fear of the Walking Dead and he's the savior of the world and risen. Totally.
Matt Brown:So that was hard for me to like connect that.
Justin Pardee:Right. One of the things that I would even say to Mark too when he was he's asking about like, I'm not am I if I'm unwilling to go across the other world, it might not even be the unwillingness or just an ability or something like that. And then, Stephanie and I had the opportunity to travel and visit India last year and the whole time I was there, I just felt so drawn to the people and I literally was like, man, I want to bring my family here and live in the city and be a part of what we're doing. And obviously, that's not what I'm doing. And I don't want to toot my own horn here but like it's just been tax time and that's such a great time every year to almost to like really evaluate counting that cost.
Justin Pardee:So cool because my tax guy, he he's a member of Sandals Church and when he put all the numbers together and showed me like what our charitable contributions just were this year, like, gave me a good old pat on the back.
Matt Brown:Oh, cool.
Justin Pardee:And it was just a cool reminder that, you know, even though I'm not necessarily physically picking up and going, man, over the last two years, like, you can look at my finances in all their glory, everything that the government sees and see that our family is making intentional steps to give up the life that we want, you know.
Matt Brown:Right. And there's two people, and so we talk about this. We're gonna talk about this our upcoming missions conference at our church Oh, yeah. Which I want people to come and hear David Platt speak, which I believe that's open, right?
Justin Pardee:Yeah, Wednesday Yeah, totally, Wednesday.
Matt Brown:Yeah, so
Stephanie Schaefer:April 20.
Matt Brown:April 20. Next Wednesday, right?
Justin Pardee:Yep.
Matt Brown:Next Wednesday. Yeah, so they can come and check that out. But you know, everybody in our church has to decide to be one of two things, a goer Mhmm. So they pick up, sell everything they have, and they go, or they stay here and they become a sender. And so every single one of us, and so that's like, you know, you know, Tammy and I picked up, left Huntington Beach, came to Riverside, planted a church.
Matt Brown:We left everything there to plant this church here. But now that we're here, you know, we're sending a 100 missionaries to India.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:So how are we gonna do that? Tammy and I take our finances. You know, we we give to the church first, that needs to be our first priority. Mhmm. And so we do that, and then we help send people that are going.
Matt Brown:So every person needs to pray about, am I a goer? And that that that needs to be processed not just with you, but with people. You know, is it your gift set? Can you learn other languages? Do you have a skill set that we can use over in that country?
Matt Brown:Right? Yeah. That needs to be a community decision. Or am I a sender? You know, do we need to, you know, cut our cable bill, get rid of our cell phones, you know, down download some of our costs so that I can give more money so that people can go.
Matt Brown:Right. And and we all need to be a part of that, either going or sending. And the reality is it takes way more senders than goers.
Justin Pardee:Oh, yeah. Totally. Totally.
Matt Brown:And both are important.
Justin Pardee:Awesome. Well, let's jump into Luke chapter 15 and, this is kind of a a shorter chapter and it seems simple on the surface level, but we got some really great content and questions coming from here. The first one is actually from our new content producer who joined our debrief team this week, Josh. And, he asked this. In a previous episode, and I actually think it's one or two episodes, Pastor Matt, you've talked about how there comes a point where God has given someone the chance to repent, and if they don't, he'd give up on them.
Justin Pardee:But Luke 15 seems to indicate that God is always willing, waiting, and seeking us. So how can we know if we are too far gone?
Matt Brown:Well, so what we have to do is we have to balance chapter 15 with chapters thirteen and fourteen. And chapters thirteen and fourteen, Jesus write 13, the narrow door. The narrowest door. You know, many will try to enter, but few will. Chapter 14, I sent out the invitation, you reject it.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. You rejected the invitation. Why? Because the time of the banquet was here. So they reject it.
Matt Brown:So he says, go out into the streets, find the blind, the lame, the crippled, all those people. There's still more room. Go find the weird guy in the hedge. Remember that whole story? So go find them.
Matt Brown:So thirteen and fourteen are saying, look, you don't have forever. And then 15 really isn't stating that you have forever, it's really stating why why God why God has gone after the the blind, the lame, the crippled, the people in the hedges on the highways. Why is God turning to the outcasts? And 15 really, you know, and I know Claude's perspective this week was we have value. I thought that was a great message and a great point, because so many people don't feel like they have value.
Justin Pardee:Totally.
Matt Brown:But what 15 really is about is not our value, but it's about God's heart. So 15 is why. Mhmm. Why? Because God loves us.
Matt Brown:And he's yes, we all have value, and again, great message. I thought it was one of Claude's best ever. Totally. It was fantastic. But what it's really demonstrating is God's heart, and what it's revealing to them is why they're not getting in heaven.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. Why is the door narrow? Because they won't repent. Why aren't they invited to the party? Because they refused the banquet feast.
Matt Brown:Why again, verse 15, because your heart is so far from God's. So not only will you this is 15. Not only will you not come to the party, but you're mad that he's inviting others.
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Matt Brown:I mean, how how ridiculous is C. Lewis writes this book, and if, I mean, you ever really wanna get tweaked, read C. S. Lewis's book, The Great Divorce. It is this bizarre book.
Matt Brown:So CS Lewis, great great scholar, philosopher, maybe the most brilliant Christian of the last century, has a different take on the end time, or not the end times, but on heaven, because he believed in a thing called purgatory, and that is the church the Church of England's official position. And so we as a Sandals Church, we we don't agree with this purgatory, like this intermediary waiting place for people to figure out, you know, yes ultimately, or no ultimately. And so we can get into that at a later point. But the the whole book of The Great Divorce is these people that are on this this I can't remember, it's a train or bus.
Justin Pardee:I think it's a bus.
Matt Brown:Yeah. It's a bus. And they're they're in this like like this bar waiting, this station, and they're talking, there's conversations. And some people leave the bus and come back, and some never come back. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And what it is, it's it's this journey to to the gates of heaven. And and in this, the the story that just creeped me out, it's this this this mother and her child, and the child going into heaven, leave leaving everything behind to to to choose God, and the mother is demanding that not only, you know, she won't repent, but she's demanding that if her son truly loved her, that he would turn around and go to hell with her. Mhmm. And it's this horrible story, but it just shows you the depths of human selfishness Mhmm. And self righteousness, that this mother, she's she's claiming to love her son, but the truth is if she loved her son, she would want him to go to heaven.
Matt Brown:But the truth is she loves herself, and she's demanding that he go to hell with her. And it and she doesn't know that, but it's just it's just crazy story. And so the reality is these Pharisees are like this selfish, self centered mother, is not only will they not go to the party in heaven, but they don't want you to go, and they don't want Stephanie to go. And they're mad. And you shouldn't get to go, because we know party's an idiot, Stephanie, you know, Bergdorf Center.
Matt Brown:Right? We know that. Right? You guys you guys are unworthy. And if God if God was who he really says he is, he would never let you in the party.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. And Jesus is saying, no no no no no. God is who he says he is, you just don't know him. Mhmm. And he's gonna tell this story about the character of God's heart.
Matt Brown:And God is seeking that which is lost, and that's why Jesus is there. I'm here to get that which was lost. And so this is where churches get backwards. Why do churches die? Because they forget the heart of God.
Matt Brown:Yeah. They care only about themselves, and they don't care about lost people. And we've we've heard this at Sandals, people, oh, the church is too big. Why? They forgot that God is about seeking that which is lost, and they become about themselves, they only care about them, and they don't care about these new people with messed up lives that are, you know, gonna, you know, are gonna tweak their kids, and and are gonna, you know, mess up their marriages, and destroy their small groups.
Matt Brown:And what's happened is, they don't realize how they've shifted far from God. Mhmm. And and Christians do this. Right? We get all excited about being found, and then we forget.
Matt Brown:And we get mad when the church continues to seek that which is lost. Because Jesus tells the story about, you know, God being the seeker, but ultimately, as we end the gospel and we go into the book of Acts, Jesus calls us to be the seekers. Yep. So we join in the hunt, and we join in the find and looking for that which is lost.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So as he starts off, the very first thing that he does when he's talking about lost stuff is talk about a lost sheep.
Stephanie Schaefer:He does. So in verse four, says Jesus says, if a man has a 100 sheep and one of them gets lost, what will he do? Won't he leave the 99 others in the wilderness and go to search for the one that is lost until he finds it? Is just is Jesus saying here in this parable that God will, quote, leave those who are following him to seek after those who are lost?
Matt Brown:Right. And so, know, we we we have to remember this is a fake story. Yep. There are no 99 sheep, there is no one. This is a story.
Matt Brown:Bad. A fictional story to prove a point. And so, you know, I was sharing with you when we were talking earlier about when you lost your son at Disneyland Yeah. Because you're a bad father. So we talked about that.
Justin Pardee:Listen, I
Matt Brown:had Yeah.
Justin Pardee:Kids there.
Matt Brown:Jesus' story, he has a 100 sheep and loses one. Justin has two kids at Disneyland and loses 50% of them
Stephanie Schaefer:50%
Matt Brown:is the card, bro.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. My wife listens to this podcast. Yeah.
Matt Brown:She should So not trust you anyways, you know this, is that, and every parent knows this, when you have a lost kid, those who are safe and secure become irrelevant. And it's not that it's not that you don't care about them, it's that they're okay. Yes. And so the principle of the story is is the 99 are fine. So we we need to not overanalyze the story of, oh, the shepherd left them.
Matt Brown:No. They're safe. Mhmm. They're safe, they're secure. They're not going anywhere.
Matt Brown:They're okay. What happens in this moment is the 99 are irrelevant because one is lost, and every parent knows this. You know, I've heard I've had parents tell me, you know, this statement is, you will only be as happy as your most unhappy child. And that's the truth is because as a parent, right, you care about the one kid that's hurting, you care about the one kid that's sick, and it's not that the other ones don't matter, it's that the one that's needy needs your attention. And so the idea here is something's wrong with the sheep, because he has to pick it up and bring it back.
Matt Brown:Something's gone wrong. Mhmm. Right? You know, the idea is not just that the sheep wandered off, because if it did, it would have followed the shepherd back. The sheep needs to be picked up and carried.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Been year ago. Something's wrong here, something's gone tragically wrong, and we need to remember that. And the heart of God is to be compassionate for this sheep that's really not an illustration about animals at all, it's it's about people. And people have been wounded, they're broken, and something is deeply deeply wrong, and so the shepherd has to go and get them.
Matt Brown:And that's why Jesus Christ came, he came to seek and to save that which was lost. The shepherd came to us in our brokenness, and he's saying this is the heart of God. This is why I'm sitting at this table around these sinners. This is why I'm sitting with the tax collector who, yeah, is a traitor. They make the wrong choice.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, tax collectors two thousand years ago, you know, they were defeated by Rome. Tax collectors chose to be employed by Rome to collect taxes on their behalf. And so they were traders, you know. It's your own brother, your own your own friend. The guy down the street now is taking your money and giving it to the evil, awful, horrible Roman Empire, and they they were considered sellouts, the worst of the worst.
Matt Brown:And then, you know, the other, the sinners, as you know, prostitutes, and you know, people who are filthy. And and and we all have these categories in our life, like, we all have people in our lives who are like, oh, well you know them, stay away from that person. These are the people that Jesus and this is what's important. In the in the original Greek language, it makes it clear that this is something that Jesus does habitually. So it's not like this one time Jesus went crazy and hung out with people in Vegas.
Matt Brown:He is habitually hanging out with people in Vegas. Now here's a here's a caveat, because a lot of Christians get stupid. Right? And they're the missionary at the drinking party. K.
Matt Brown:Listen. Jesus isn't participating in sin with him. He's inviting sinners to participate with him. So we need to be very very clear on this, because Christians get stupid, and they go to participate in sin with sinners. That is not what Jesus is doing.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. The accusation is that He is connecting with them. Yeah. He's eating with them. He's fellowshipping with them.
Matt Brown:So as Christians, we need to invite sinners into our life to be a part of our life, to be a part of our friendships, to be a part of what we're doing. We don't need to go be a part of what they're doing, because then we're just as lost as they are. Right. So we need to be very very careful with that illustration.
Justin Pardee:Yeah, man. And Jesus is clearly like living such a compelling life that
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Justin Pardee:That the sinners are saying, yes, of course. I would want to come be a part of that. Okay. So verse seven is actually kind of hits on a very similar topic of what we're talking about right now. Jesus says, there's more joy in heaven over one lost sinner who repents and returns to God than over 99 others who are righteous and haven't strayed away.
Justin Pardee:And Claude, when he was preaching this weekend, he said that Jesus was What he was doing here is being sarcastic to try and essentially make the same point that you're making to the Pharisees.
Matt Brown:Right. Yeah. And Claude hit it out of the park here. Look, man, no one's righteous. No one.
Matt Brown:And if you believe your own press, that means you you you you're a son of hell, or a daughter of hell. I mean, to know God is to know yourself, to know your heart, and to see what's inside you. And the truth is, every single one of us at the core of our being has a desperately wicked heart. You know, there are philosophies in the world that start from this principle, human beings are inherently good. That's not what the Bible teaches.
Matt Brown:The Bible teaches that, you know, human beings are inherently bad, and if you don't believe me, have children. Right? Have multiples, know, and they'll, you know
Justin Pardee:They'll get lost at Disneyland on purpose.
Matt Brown:They'll try to hurt each other. You will. Yeah. But thank you for trying to make yourself feel better for losing your kid. So Blame your kid for that.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Blame your kid for not being where they're supposed to be.
Justin Pardee:Listen, I was in a candy shop. Okay? There was a lot going on
Matt Brown:I know.
Justin Pardee:In my situation. Oh, wow.
Matt Brown:Yes.
Justin Pardee:I guess that didn't I thought that was gonna help me make No, there. No.
Matt Brown:We all know your idolatry. Understand Okay. Now you made me get lost.
Justin Pardee:I apologize.
Matt Brown:So no, none of these guys are righteous. Absolutely none of them. That's why they're not going to the party. But it you know, right? They're gonna be thrown out.
Matt Brown:The door is narrow, they're not getting in, everything that he said, he's mocking them. The 99 the only reason the 99 are safe, according to the gospel, is if they've repented of their sins, is if they've been found. And so what he's trying to say is, look, man, God is not celebrating your righteousness. What God celebrates is your repentance. You need to repent.
Matt Brown:You know, you need to get right with God. And this issue is so important, and we'll get to it when we talk about the prodigal son. The word repent or repented is used in the book of Luke and Acts, I'm gonna say 25 times, I'm close.
Justin Pardee:Okay.
Matt Brown:Let's say 14 times as a verb, 11 times as a noun. So it's either you need to repent, or you have repented. It's an action. So for Luke, the gospel is a person who repents of their sins and places their faith in trust in Jesus Christ. A person who asks God to forgive them of their sins.
Matt Brown:You would only do that if you believe that you're a sinner. And so, right, you only need a savior if you need to be saved. And so for him, this is just key key key key. So what is all of heaven waiting to celebrate? Everybody repenting.
Matt Brown:Right. Everybody being found. Everybody seeing a light. And so Jesus is saying, look, you guys have missed the point. You've missed God's heart.
Matt Brown:God's heart wants to see sinners repent. He wants to see people saved. And the truth is, right, Pharisees got convicted by John the Baptist's message, some of them were baptized. Pharisees even got convicted by Jesus's message, just the vast majority of them rejected it. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:But most people who heard Jesus talk, man, they repented. They knew. Right? Peter, when he calls Peter, Peter says, depart from me Lord, from a sinful man. When Peter interacts with Jesus, he instantly knows, okay, there's something deeply deeply wrong with who I am, and you've got to be kidding that you're asking me to be like your captain, because I'm the biggest idiot on earth.
Matt Brown:What does the apostle Paul say? Here's a trustworthy saying, Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, and I am the worst of them all. So everybody who ever changed the world, everybody who became a great person understood how great they're not.
Stephanie Schaefer:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And that's what's so key here, and what's so sad is, you know, once you start believing you're impressed, you start believing that you're awesome, that's when you're truly lost.
Justin Pardee:Man, when you look at chapters thirteen, fourteen, and 15, it just sounds like Jesus so desperately wants these religious guys to get that truth.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Absolutely. And he cries over Jerusalem. Yeah. I mean, he weeps over Jerusalem.
Matt Brown:Right? Because Jerusalem kills all the prophets. Mhmm. You know, he says, how often I've wanted to hold you in my arms, but I can't. Because you've always killed the prophets, you always will, and you will kill me there.
Matt Brown:Right? The the most holy city on earth is the most evil city on earth. Mhmm. You know? And if you'll experience that today, if you go with me to Jerusalem, it's a beautiful place, and it is an awful, ugly place.
Matt Brown:Murder, and anger, and rage, and just it's this conglomeration of such a multitude of feelings. Right? It's supposed to be the center of peace, and it's the most violent place on earth, and and probably, you know, in the end, we'll start World War three or four, or whatever the final war is, the final one. Yeah. It will start there, so.
Justin Pardee:Well, we have a one last question from and it's about actually kind of the these religious leaders, the Pharisees. And this question comes from our friend John Brown's group. Now, this comes from his whole group, and their group is called Brown Town, which I think is pretty awesome. Mhmm. So, if if your community group has like a sweet nickname or a a
Matt Brown:title gang It's gonna be hard to beat Brown Town. I'm Brown
Justin Pardee:Town. Yeah. If you guys have a sweet name, here's what you do. Just let us know. Don't know.
Justin Pardee:Tell us. Sounds awesome and we'll do This will
Stephanie Schaefer:my like first order of business at community group this week because
Justin Pardee:be talking to
Matt Brown:my group.
Justin Pardee:Oh, yeah. So go to your community group this week before you like start asking all the questions about real self god and others. Come up with a sweet name for your group, and then write in and let us know what it is so that we can celebrate your sweet group. And then go out and care about lost people. Okay.
Justin Pardee:Last
Stephanie Schaefer:share Brown Town's question. Yes. So in verses 28
Justin Pardee:Brown Town.
Matt Brown:Okay. You're not on the worship team for a reason.
Stephanie Schaefer:You don't want no beef, boys.
Justin Pardee:It's true. Yes.
Stephanie Schaefer:Alright. In verses twenty and thirty two, it says, the older brother was angry and wouldn't go in. His father said to him, your brother was dead and has come back to life. He was lost, but now he is found. So was the older son saved, or was he a representative of the Pharisees who were not?
Matt Brown:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So k. We we need to back up.
Matt Brown:So the story of the Particle Son, I'm I'm guessing everybody listening to the podcast listened to the message this week. If not, you know, you need to read Luke 15. Here's the story. It's great. So, you know, so Jesus tells a parable of two sons.
Matt Brown:The first son demands his inheritance, which in the Old Testament, think it's like Deuteronomy twenty one seventeen, where it it shows that the inheritance of the oldest son is two thirds, and the second son is one third. I think that's the right verse. So the younger son demands his inheritance, so he gets a third of it, basically saying, dad, you're dead, goes off, wastes all of his money and and living, and, you know, comes back. And and and and so we'll talk about repentance in a second. But he comes back, you know, he says, look, I've sinned against God, I've sinned against my father, I need to go back because I would rather be hired.
Matt Brown:I was right?
Justin Pardee:Yep. Yeah. Cool.
Matt Brown:You. Bible trivia.
Justin Pardee:I'm gonna buy you a cookie after this.
Matt Brown:Dude, I was stretching Yeah. For that That would that was definitely on the perimeter of my theological scope. That was I was
Stephanie Schaefer:like, Deuteronomy is on the perimeter of most of our theological So you're well beyond.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Maybe I should have notes. That'd be good. So so so he tells this whole story about the son who repents and comes back. But the whole point of the message of Luke 15 really isn't the prodigal son, which is typically what we preach on.
Matt Brown:The whole point of Luke 15 is the the son who's not happy that the younger brother is repenting.
Justin Pardee:Right. Exactly.
Matt Brown:He's not celebrating. And so let me say what I'm gonna say, and then you can remind me of the question again, because we've kind of gone on this little journey. You know, the the what's amazing is is where's the father? The father is waiting for the son. So he's off waiting for the son.
Justin Pardee:Waiting for the younger son.
Matt Brown:For the for the younger son to come home. What's amazing is the the older son is not with the father. And so the assumption of the crowd who's critical of Jesus is that they're right with God. And what Jesus is trying to demonstrate is that they're far from God. And so so in the story, right, the father sees the son, he puts the celebratory robe on the son, so it's it's not it's not the robe that he left, it's a better one than he ever wore, and that's what's crazy.
Matt Brown:I mean it's amazing, right? This this robe is reserved for dignitaries Yeah. For kings and lords and people who who come and are to be celebrated, and here's the son who deserves a beating for what he did. Mhmm. I mean, right, the law says, you know, Mosaic law says that you could take this kid to the local elders and they could kill him.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. Cause he ashamed the family, he's embarrassed the family. This son could be disciplined severely, if not killed for his sin. And what does God, what does Jesus teach us that the heart of God is? Because he's repentant, and that's the key.
Matt Brown:Everything hangs on this one thing. So so the prodigal son is a picture in a story of what repentance looks like. I have sinned
Stephanie Schaefer:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Against God and against my father, and every single one of us has done this. We have sinned against God and the people that we love. I have sinned against God and my wife, God and my kids, God and my parents, God and my small group, God and my church. Like, my sin has affected every relationship that I have. I will go back, and I'll do whatever it takes.
Matt Brown:He's counting the cost, do you see it? Mhmm. But what's he got to lose? He has nothing. He's he's going to eat, you know, the garbage that's being fed to pigs.
Matt Brown:And for the Jewish audience, right, that's the worst, most embarrassing, it's the lowest of the lows. And what he's saying is, man, even if I have to be a slave for my dad, it's better than what I am now. And that's the gospel. Even if I have to be a slave of God, it's better than being the wealthiest person on earth. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Because God is going to treat me infinitely better. And it's the exchange, counting the cost. He counts the cost, he repents of his sin. And what's amazing, and I love this, is he goes back to his father, right, and he tries to recite this whole spiel. Father, I've sent.
Matt Brown:Right? He's got this whole preplanned prayer of repentance, and the father's just like, stop. Because he knows. Mhmm. He knows.
Matt Brown:And he puts his robe on his son. Here's what's bizarre, he puts this signet ring on his finger, a ring of authority, signifying he's an heir to all that is. It's bizarre. He's squandered, he's wasted everything that he's been given, just like you do, just like we do. Right?
Matt Brown:We've wasted our talents. Yeah. And God's like, no no no, you're still a child, you're still an heir. You still inherit. I mean, it's it's mind boggling.
Matt Brown:And then he puts sandals on his feet because he's not a slave, but he's a son. Mhmm. And so are we. We're not slaves. I mean, we are, but we're sons and daughters of the king of kings and lord of lords.
Matt Brown:Here's what's bizarre. Christ Jesus is not only my savior, but he's my brother. What?
Justin Pardee:Right. Wow.
Matt Brown:He's my brother. Mhmm. I am a child of God. Mhmm. And Jesus makes room with his glory and his authority for me alongside him.
Matt Brown:It's it's amazing. It it is it is the greatest exchange ever. And what's so sad is instead of being moved by the gracious act of God, the self righteous person who's never repented, is judging the Father. And what does the Father say? He says, everything I've had is always yours.
Matt Brown:It's always been for you. But your brother who was dead is alive. He was lost, but he's found. Mhmm. So let's celebrate.
Matt Brown:And the story ends with what?
Justin Pardee:Cliffhanger.
Matt Brown:No, it's not, because ultimately the audience rejects Jesus.
Justin Pardee:Oh, got it.
Matt Brown:They are they are the unrepentant, self righteous older brother, and they're mad. They're mad. And, you know, Jesus tells another story about, you know, the parable of the vineyard owner who hires people early in the morning, and they work all day, and then he hires some the last hour of the day, and he pays them all the same. Mhmm. And the people who worked all day under contract are mad, because they thought they would get double or triple, but they didn't.
Matt Brown:And and what he says is, didn't you sign up for what I told you I would pay? Then why do you care how generous I am? And what's amazing is, unrepentant self righteous people are mad that others receive grace Mhmm. Because they they haven't received it. It's it's it's it's it's it's tragic.
Matt Brown:I mean, here's the reality is Jesus is not preaching the prodigal son to reach the sinners who are with him at the table. He's trying to reach the self righteous who are gonna go to hell. Yep. And it's so sad. It's so tragically, tragically sad, because, right, the door is narrow, because the only way through it is repentance.
Matt Brown:So here here's the gospel according to Luke. Repent, believe, be baptized. Repent, believe, be baptized. So be sorry for your sins, believe that Jesus Christ can pay the penalty for your sins, and be baptized. And so it's this formula of of of turning from sin and turning to God, denying your life and identifying with the life of Christ, which is his church.
Matt Brown:It's this beautiful, beautiful formula. And baptism, right, is this picture of your own burial. You're dying to self, you're being put down in the tomb with Christ. It's this beautiful picture, and you're being pulled out, raised to this new life. Right?
Matt Brown:The prodigal son was dead, but now he's alive. He was lost, but now he's found. And so we kinda do we have more questions, or was that This is one quote. Okay. I got one more, but I don't think I covered their question, because you asked me specifically what you said
Stephanie Schaefer:Was the older son saved, is the question. Or is he representative of the Pharisees?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Think he's represent representative of an unrepentant Pharisee. And so what here's what's sad is, and I don't know that everybody would agree with me on this, but I think he's lost and he's going to hell. And what's sad is, everything God ever had was for him. He's the oldest brother, he's the firstborn, he's the one that God loved, he's the seed of Abraham.
Matt Brown:All that I have is for you. But what? How how do you get into the party? Repentance. Repentance.
Matt Brown:And so I I think that's it's absolutely important. And for Luke, everyone's a sinner. Luke is going to make that clear. We all need to be saved, every single one of us. And we and we come at those conclusions at different times in our life.
Matt Brown:And, you know, here's the beauty, you know, the thief on the cross, right, he he he gets it right at the end, and and there's hope for us, but we all have to repent of our sins. You have to be you know, the word is metineo, there's this complete changing of one's mind, the way that you think about something. You know, for example, you know, you talked a couple weeks ago about, you know, when we talked about pornography a little bit. I used to really, really struggle with that, you know, starting in, like, junior high, you know, all the way through college, and I wrestled with it and wrestled with it. And the problem was, the way I looked at it needed to change.
Matt Brown:So people that struggle with pornography, they see it as something good. And what needed to happen in my life is I needed to see it as something evil and sad.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so once that change of my mind flipped, I no longer had the temptation to do it, because I truly believed that it was something different. And so that's what needs to happen is, you know, sin needs to look differently in your perspective. It needs to lose its appeal, and its grip, and its hold, because you've seen the light. So that that that's where I wanna tell the story. So like, so we talked about the sheep, we talked about the sons, but we didn't talk about the woman.
Justin Pardee:And her coin.
Matt Brown:So it's But what does she do to find the coin? She lights a lamp in the house. Because a house in the ancient world, most houses had no windows. What does that mean? It's dark.
Matt Brown:So the only way to find it is with light. And so who's the light? It's Christ. And it it's just such a beautiful thing. And that light bulb, when it turns on in your life, and this is my prayer for everybody, is that is that the light of Christ, it's not an internal light.
Matt Brown:Right? That's self help crap. Yeah. It's not an internal light. It's an external light.
Matt Brown:Jesus is the light of the world, and he needs to shine on you, and that's gonna reveal two things to you. Number one, that you're a sinner, but number two, that you are a valued sinner, and God wants to save you. And so there's two things that need to happen. You know, in in metineo, in repentance, teaches you two things. One, that you're broken, but two, that you are beautiful and worthy of repair, because God bought you, he has redeemed you with the most expensive purchase in the history of the universe, the blood of his son Jesus Christ.
Matt Brown:And, you know, I I I think about I was thinking as I was listening to Claude's message, you know, there are things that I want in this life. You know, maybe I want a new house, and oh, love this house, but then I find out how much it costs. I don't want it that much. Right? And there's things like that in in all of our lives.
Matt Brown:There are things that we really really want, but once we understand the cost, we're like, no. I can't imagine anything in this world where I would say, yeah, I would kill Ethan for that. I mean, literally, all all that is in the world and everything the world has to offer, like people people say, we're gonna give you everything. It's gonna be king Matt. But you have to give up your son for that.
Matt Brown:Right? Something is deeply wrong with me
Justin Pardee:He is.
Matt Brown:To do that. But what's amazing is that's exactly what God did for me. He gave up his only son for me. And so what that tells me is I have this incredible value that I I can't even understand my own worth. Like, we we we always talk about that, like rich people, like, Oh, he's worth Donald Trump's worth one point Right.
Matt Brown:$6,000,000,000. What are we saying? His value is this. You know, Justin, we can't even comprehend your value, because it's not it can't be quantified monetarily. It's price less.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:And so like the Smithsonian in DC has some artifacts, and and what and what the d and what they'll do in the Smithsonian is when they bring an artifacts, they'll put values on it. So like the Hope Diamond Mhmm. Or whatever. And they'll say it's worth, you know, $8,000,000, or a billion dollars, or this. And what's amazing is they brought in the earliest manuscripts of the Bible.
Matt Brown:The oldest we have. Some of them date all the way back to like, you know, a 100 years AD. So seventy, eighty years after the death of Christ. Think about how old those manuscripts are, right? And so what they do for insurance purposes is they have to put a price on them.
Matt Brown:And when they brought in these scriptures, they're priceless. All the money in the world is not worth these because there's only this one. Right? And that's the way Jesus is. All that is in the universe, everything that is you can't put a price on it because it is God's one and only son.
Matt Brown:And and again, we talked about Mormons at the beginning. That's where we differ with Mormons. Jesus is one of many of God's sons, which to me, slights the sacrifice. Mhmm. Jesus is the one, the only, there is no other.
Matt Brown:And this is why it's so important, right? So for Jehovah Witnesses, he's a created being. Well, if he's created, God can make another one. Mhmm. He's not created.
Matt Brown:He is the one and only begotten son of God. It's just him. God has no other son, and never will, and he gave that up for us. Yeah. And it's just beautiful.
Matt Brown:And so every person that's depressed, discouraged, they feel like they don't matter, they feel unloved, they feel unseen. God sees you, God is seeking you, and God wants to purchase you with the blood of his son, Jesus Christ. I mean, is, I just hope that everybody can just, like, literally be in tears as they think about their value from God's perspective. Not from the world's, you know, but, man, it's just really incredible. You were gonna ask something else, like
Justin Pardee:I No. This is good stuff.
Matt Brown:Alright.
Stephanie Schaefer:So we that was all of our questions for today. So I just wanna thank everyone who's sent in questions. This is also like a really awesome conversation. I think we're both still sitting here kind of soaking it in right now.
Matt Brown:Thank you, Claude. Sorry to cut you off. Thank you, Claude, great messages this weekend.
Justin Pardee:Oh, totally.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. If you wanna check out Claude Hickman's message from this weekend, head to sandalschurch.com/watch, and you can see his sermon and all the great stuff that Matt has been talking about. And if you would like to submit questions here on the debrief, maybe out of that message, or as you look at this chapter a little bit more, just head to sandalschurch.com/thedebrief. You can submit a question right there.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. There's a big red button that says ask a question. Hey, we are thinking about making a quick change, and if you've listened this far into the debrief, this may affect you. We're thinking about changing when we publish the debrief, from Tuesday evenings to first thing Wednesday mornings, so that we can make, do, some improvements and some the podcast even slightly more awesome. Here's the deal.
Justin Pardee:If you listen to the podcast every single Tuesday, right when it comes out and it would totally crush your vibe, ruin your week, whatever, if we started publishing Wednesday mornings instead of Tuesday afternoons, you send me an email, let me know. Make sure that it's like this like your favorite show about to get canceled by the networks. So you write in, send me an email p r d sandalstritch dot com. If enough of you guys say it makes a huge deal to you, we'll keep it on Tuesdays. But if, you're willing to let us publish on Wednesday mornings to make it slightly better.
Stephanie Schaefer:We'll offer you some great benefits.
Justin Pardee:Exactly. Then, totally cool. If you're if you're willing, just chill out. Don't no need to no need to do anything. Alright.
Justin Pardee:Pastor Matt, it is time to close this week's debrief with your thoughts on an inspirational quote. You you got a sweet one for us, Steph?
Stephanie Schaefer:Oh, I sure do. This week's inspirational quote, all's well that ends well.
Matt Brown:I like that. My thoughts on it?
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Let's pause. Everyone reflect.
Matt Brown:All is well that ends well. Yeah.
Justin Pardee:I don't even know that I fully understand what that means.
Matt Brown:I don't either.
Justin Pardee:Like like It's great. Cool. It's over. That's good. Like
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. Or is it like, oh, anything that turns out well was good all along?
Justin Pardee:Is it like Well, what
Matt Brown:I don't like about that is it kind of absolves you of your stupidity throughout the process. So if you survive in the end, was it still okay? You know, no. You know, Justin lost his kid at Disneyland and that needs to not happen again.
Justin Pardee:Well, yeah. So that was not But since he bought
Matt Brown:him home But it is well because it ended well. Yeah. But Boaz was traumatized. True. And I too By Kylo Ren because
Justin Pardee:of you. I too was traumatized by that candy shop and I might not ever Your
Matt Brown:wife is traumatized right now as she listens to this podcast and I would suggest that you get real with her
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. Before this summer.
Justin Pardee:I did tell her did tell her most of the important details of that story. So that's how it goes.
Matt Brown:I used to tell my kids when I watch them, there's two rules. You can't disappear on my watch or die. You can only do that when your mother's watching it.
Justin Pardee:I think that's that's wise.
Matt Brown:Right.
Justin Pardee:Yep. You would be yeah. Moms are serious.
Matt Brown:Oh, dude. Yeah. Serious. Don't die while I'm watching you.
Justin Pardee:Yep. And let that be advice to you guys, our friendly listeners. Don't don't die this week.
Matt Brown:So let me say this, next week, read up, study up. So Luke 16 is crazy. So we're gonna have that there it's gonna blow your mind. So there's there's yeah. So just read it, try to figure it out.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. And, know, the parable of the shrewd manager is brutal to try to interpret. So put on your theological caps and
Justin Pardee:Act now and send your questions in.
Matt Brown:Yes.
Justin Pardee:So See you guys next week.
Matt Brown:Bye, guys. Bye bye. Smoooo.