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Whether communication comes naturally to you or not, it’s a skill that you can grow and improve at. In this episode, Alex and Ben continue their conversation on the fundamentals of great communication by breaking down 5 more actions you can take to improve at communicating. They also talk about some of the communicators they admire and lessons they’ve learned from watching them.
Information isn’t the gap between failure and success—action is. Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching helps you create a plan and execute on what matters most for your business. Apply today at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
Episode Recap:
- When the unexpected happens, you can fall back on the fundamentals of strong communication
- To improve as a communicator, focus on these actions
- 3. Find your voice and style
- Pay attention to the communication styles of people you admire
- 4. Identify your intent
- Think about your message as an answer to “why” or “how” questions
- 5. Practice the way you plan to perform
- 6. Communicate with people, not at people
- 7. Evaluate and improve
- Communication is a skill, and that means it’s something you can grow
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Okay. So I wanna share this story because I think it connects to everything we talked about in our first episode on communication. I think it's really gonna set us up for what we're about to talk to you today and why simplicity is so helpful whenever you're playing the role of communicator. So I was the emcee for a 4,000 person event that we did for Entre Leadership called Summit, and there were just amazing speakers. Obviously, Dave Ramsey was speaking.
Alex Judd:John Maxwell, I think, was at this one. Henry Cloud was at this one. Peyton Manning. The lineup was just bonkers. And two of the speakers, one was, Sarah Blakely, first ever self made female billionaire with a b, and then Jesse Itzler, who's her husband.
Alex Judd:And Jesse is the founder of NetJets. He's an ultra runner. I I would honestly just say the best biomarker for Jesse is, like, genuine character. Like, the guy is a wild man, and just has such a powerful message. So the two of them were speaking as well, and they're a husband and wife couple, but they were speaking separately.
Alex Judd:And so Jesse literally, I think, showed up fifteen minutes before he's about to be on stage. And and, you know, the audience is all eating lunch at this time. He shows up in the green room, and I'll never forget. He shows up, and his his hair is, like, everywhere, and he's, like, dripping. He's wet.
Alex Judd:And and Sharon Ramsey, like, kinda walks up and introduces herself to him. This is Dave's wife, and she says, well, you're all wet, honey. And and he says, I was just out surfing. And it's like, he literally came from surfing to give a talk to 4,000 people. Right?
Alex Judd:Unique style, he has about him. And so we talk for a little bit, then we go, and I'm gonna introduce him. And and I get the energy hype cause I know he's gonna come in energetic, give his bio and everything. And and then he comes running on the stage all energetic, and he's off into the races. So Jesse has, I don't know, it's probably like eighty five to ninety minutes of talk time that he's gonna be operating on.
Alex Judd:Meanwhile, I go back to the Green Room, and I'm just kinda getting prepared to then, come on after Jesse to introduce his wife, Sarah. And I know that Sarah's you know, it's gonna be a very, like, standard bio in the minute by minute. It was gonna be a pretty quick introduction, and then I was just gonna bring her on. So Sarah's in the green room as well, and, kind of everyone's just kinda getting prepared for where we're at in the event. And we get a message.
Alex Judd:So this is on a different floor than where the stage is. We get a message, I think, like, 50 in that the producers backstage are are like, hey. It's kind of like he's wrapping up. He technically has thirty or thirty five more minutes left, but it kind of feels like he's, like, landing this plane. And so maybe y'all should bring Alex down here, like, just in case.
Alex Judd:And so we're like, okay. And we're, like, kinda hustled down the stairs. And then literally, I get, you know, backstage and she's like, thank you all so much. This is amazing. Goodbye.
Alex Judd:And, like, and everyone's clapping and everything. And I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm like, Sarah is not even down here right now. She's upstairs still. And so I'm like, oh gosh, what is this gonna be like?
Alex Judd:And they literally like basically like pushed me out there and Jesse hands me like his notebook, his microphone and everything as he's walking upstairs. Like, what am I supposed to do with this? This isn't part of the gig. Right? Like, wasn't supposed to do that.
Alex Judd:And and meanwhile, I look over and they're like, we're gonna have to get the mic on Sarah. And so, like, literally, the producer just looks at me and literally goes, like, I don't know what to tell you. And he's just like, just vamp. Just go. And I'm like, okay.
Alex Judd:So I need to figure out something to stay here. And it's like in moments like that where you are expected to communicate and you're like but it's nothing like what you expected, What do you do? That's when simplicity is so helpful. Mhmm. You gotta lean into your fundamentals.
Alex Judd:You gotta know, man, now's the time where I gotta read the energy of the room. I've gotta be able to tell a great story. I've gotta maybe be able to engage the audience and ask them questions. Because if someone told you just generally, hey, you've got one person in front of you and I need you to fill five minutes in a way that's engaging, you would be able to do that. And what's crazy is that 4,000 actually doesn't change too much about that.
Alex Judd:You just have to have the composure of yourself. So so I start going on this story and then, like, applying some of the things that I heard Sarah say to things. Meanwhile, thankfully, I'm literally looking out and people are taking notes on what I'm saying. Like, wow, this is going pretty well. My first ever talk at an Entre Leadership Summit.
Alex Judd:This is great. Meanwhile, I'm looking over and they're putting Sarah's mic on her and like trying to get her all situated and everything. Then like literally, I I do have the audience do a hand raise thing which is like, how many of you feel like you're accidental CEOs? And then give those people a word of encouragement and I say, well, our next speaker is gonna be great for that. Then I list her bio and I mean, probably six or seven minutes in, I look over, I'm like, they better have it now.
Alex Judd:And they look at me and they give me a thumbs up and I say, ladies and gentlemen, Sarah Blakely. She comes running out. And, oh, man, I I still get nervous telling that story. But, again, the reason why we start this episode this way is because communication is a complex activity. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And sometimes it's that you need to give a prepared talk, but sometimes as a leader, there's times where you didn't even expect you were gonna have to do it. You just need to be able to communicate. Mhmm. And it's in those times where the fundamentals that we're talking about, certainly in the last episode, but also in this one, are are gonna be really, really valuable and really helpful.
Ben Loy:Yeah. That I'm I'm gonna butcher the story, so I'm gonna just spare the details and just do a flyover, but that makes me think of, like, Erwin McManus. And I think one of the he shares a story of, like, one of the first times that he ever shared in front of a large audience. I mean, I think it's, like, tens of thousands of people and it
Alex Judd:was And he is a brilliant communicator.
Ben Loy:He's so good. Yeah. But it was he he shares a story and if, man, I'll have to find a clip or something we can maybe put in the show notes. But he, he talks about how, yeah, he he did not ex it was an unexpected moment. Like, the the speaker that they had didn't show up and he was at this event and they were just like, here you go.
Ben Loy:The story he shares, I mean, he has he he had already been speaking, developed his style, knew what he wanted to talk about. But if if you're not prepared and and haven't put in the reps in those moments, yeah, they're just gonna ship on by,
Alex Judd:you know. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Loy:So the the third point on this, was like find your voice and your style.
Alex Judd:Mhmm.
Ben Loy:At that point in in your your career or in your your journey as a communicator, Did you already have a good grasp on what that looked like?
Alex Judd:No. And I I I would honestly say I don't know what our marker for good grasp is, but I am still learning what my communication voice is. Mhmm. Right? Like, and I'm certainly much further along than where I was, whatever that was five years ago now, but I think I still have room to grow.
Alex Judd:I would say there were certain things that I knew about myself. I knew that, man, if I can combine energy and thoughtfulness, that's where I'm in my sweet spot as a communicator. I knew that audience engagement is, like, one of the tools that I have in my tool belt. I I knew that extemporaneous was part of my style. Those were things that I I would use and and kind of lean into.
Alex Judd:But if you would go back and and look at, you know, previous videos or recordings of me communicating or if we were to go back in time and listen to me, you would definitely say, oh, he's kind of copying Dave Ramsey. Right? Right? And it's because that was like the primary example that I had at that time. And whenever I worked at a church before that, I was copying the brilliant communicator that was the lead pastor at that church.
Alex Judd:Right? And and people would literally say, oh my gosh. You're like his mini me. And it's like, alright. That wasn't actually me.
Alex Judd:That was me somewhat playing a little bit of a character, which certain personality types definitely lean into more than others. And so that actually kinda ties into the actions associated with this. But one of the things that we need to remember is the best communicators. What's crazy is if you make a list of I did this once of the people that I think are some of the most effective communicators, it's like, man, on my list, I had Tim Keller, I had TD Jakes. I had Brene Brown.
Alex Judd:Oh, goodness. I I I think I had Marie Forleo on there. She's a brilliant communicator. I had John Maxwell on there. Dave Ramsey was on there.
Alex Judd:And it's like, we were to look at this list of communicators that I had and then ask, what do these people have in common in terms of how they communicate? There is, like, very little, like, very little they have in common in terms of the manner in which they communicate. Some have more similarities than others, but they're like you would not look at any of them and be like, oh, that person's exactly like that person. It doesn't work that way. Right?
Alex Judd:And so as I was reading through this list, I remember Craig Groeschel was on there too. And and, like, I was looking at this list, and I was like, what is but if I was to identify one thing they all have in common, it's like, oh, they're all just really good at being themselves. Like, that's what they're good at. Yeah. And so that's what we're really talking about here is, man, the more you get confident in who you are and just speak as that person and teach and communicate as that person, the more genuine and authentic your teaching and talking is going to be.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery is what they say. But, like, who you're interested in isn't necessarily it's not bad to to look to them or to, I guess, copy them in in some aspects. Right?
Alex Judd:It's I I would say it's a clue. Right. Right? I I think the principle I I like to remember is interest is an indicator. And I would say, especially in the realm of speaking, what I like to challenge people on is admiration is an indicator.
Alex Judd:So who are the communicators that you admire, that you find yourself just captivated by and listening to? And a lot of times, that's an indicator of the type of speaker, teacher, communicator you want to be. That can be really helpful to ask yourself the question, who do you really admire as a communicator? And then go one step deeper and ask, what is it that you admire about them? So I I would ask you that question.
Alex Judd:Let's just do a a live training on this right now. Like, who are the people that you are interested in and admire as a communicator?
Ben Loy:I'd say Matt Chandler.
Alex Judd:Okay. Big one. Brilliant pastor in Dallas. Yeah. And
Ben Loy:I've, like as far as speakers or communicators who I have I have listened to, like, just the scale of content I've listened to from a specific he's probably the most I've listened to. Like, I've there was a time when I was in the Coast Guard and didn't have a solid of a church community, was moving a lot, and it was, like, that was, like, one of the places that I went just to hear truth. And not recommended, obviously, like, a local community is is preferred, but, I just I abs I I listened to so many of his sermons and so much from the village church.
Alex Judd:And and I wanna call attention to people how how noteworthy it is. Like, don't don't spend too much time on this question. Who are you admire most or interested in most? You could just answer it the way Ben just did and just say, who do you listen to the most? Because that that's how you'll answer that.
Alex Judd:Because think about this. You have thousands, literally of thousands of options of who you could listen to whenever you're looking for a sermon in that season of your life. And for whatever reason, the one that caught your attention that you didn't just come to once, but over and over and over again was Matt Chandler. That indicates something. That is, like, not a coincidence, and you should, like, really, really pay attention to that.
Ben Loy:Yeah. And what's so interesting is, I mean, I like I said last episode, it wasn't until recently that I was like, oh, what is it about the communication style of his communication style that I find compelling? Like, what what what are the frameworks and tools he's using? What are the patterns I see in the way that he communicates?
Alex Judd:Okay. So how do you answer that question? What, like, what do you come up with when you think about that?
Ben Loy:Oh, well, I mean, one of the things and he he probably hits all of the points that we've already covered, but, I mean, like, his message is always really clear. He he's really good at stating, like, this is the point of of my talk, and then, like, let me elaborate on that. He's energetic. I I think he is effective. Like, I mean, I would say he's so effective that I'd never even really asked the question, how is he communicating?
Ben Loy:And I was just, like, absorbed in what he was saying. So
Alex Judd:That's right.
Ben Loy:I mean, I I think he checks all the boxes in that respect. I think
Alex Judd:One one thing I would say just to pause you there on this, that's a principle for people to remember is, like, as a communicator, I love Seth Godin's line. Do you wanna be a wandering generality or a meaningful specific? And the thing that you you really gotta understand is, like, your communication and your style is not going to be for everyone.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:I think Matt would probably be on a first name basis with him apparently now. Pastor Matt. Yeah. I think he would be the first to say my communication is not for everyone. Right?
Alex Judd:And I know people that are like, if you think of a really effective communicator, I'm sure you could find someone that's just like, I can't listen to that guy or I can't listen to that woman. I just can't do it. Right? And that's because it's not for everyone. You're going to double down on something specific, but that's way better than trying to be everything to all people.
Alex Judd:Yeah.
Ben Loy:Well, and and that goes into confidence. That's right. That's right. Like, that's like, are you confident enough to say that what I am sharing might not be for everyone, but it's what I believe and it's a truth worth sharing.
Alex Judd:Yeah. And even the way that
Ben Loy:I'm sharing it.
Alex Judd:Yeah. It's like if you don't want it this passionate, there's a bunch of other places because he is he is energetic is almost an understatement. Oh, mean, he is his volume, it gets up there and he if he's just deeply emotional. Right? All of that.
Alex Judd:I love Matt Chandler as well. Yeah. It's like there's some people that are like, I I that's too much for me. And it's like, okay. That's fine.
Alex Judd:Right? But what would be such a shame is if that's who you are, then for you to change who you are to be like, I wanna make sure everyone likes this message.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Yep. I'm gonna flip it on to you now. Yeah. What Pick one of the people that you named and, like, what was it about them that you that that interested you or that you observed in their communication style?
Alex Judd:Oh, gosh. Do I have to pick one is what I would
Ben Loy:say? Yeah.
Alex Judd:Says the guy with the clock in front of me. Gosh. I I would say John Maxwell. Like, let's park on John Maxwell. I'll never forget.
Alex Judd:I I saw him give a talk on personal growth. It was whenever I was an employee in Entre Leadership, but it was a a summit as well. And I'll never forget just watching how he just, man, like, were so leaned in. People were simultaneously almost on the verge of tears to, like, there were actually people crying in the room to just cracking up laughing. And he just looked so relaxed and engaged.
Alex Judd:So if I were to identify some of the things that he's really good at that I really admire from a communication perspective. The first I would say is spontaneous connection with the audience. I and, you know, I I've listened to a lot of his talks and teaching on communication as well, so I know I know he does this. People will you know, he says someone has asked him once, like, so, like, what are you gonna say whenever you get out there? And he's like, don't know yet.
Alex Judd:And they're like, what do mean you don't know yet? And he's like, I'm not out there yet. And he's like, I define what I'm gonna say when I get out there, like, the minute I get out there because I'm, like, reading the room and then figuring out what does this room need. Is it a joke? Is it is it, you know, encouragement?
Alex Judd:Is it a a pause because they just came off something really energetic? He's like, so so his ability to, again, be confident enough to meet the room where they're at, I think is just so good and therefore connect with him, which connection is his goal. Storytelling would be number number two. And what's crazy about John is, you know, it's rare that I've heard anyone listen to a John Maxwell talk and say, I've never thought of that before. That was revolutionary to me.
Alex Judd:That's actually very rare. More often, what people say is not I've never thought of it before. It's more I've never thought of it like that. It's never hit me quite in the heart. And what we know to be true is the way to people's action is through their emotion.
Alex Judd:And, man, that guy gets people emotionally engaged like nobody's business. And then number three, people love being around people doing what they love. And what's so cool is that you do a great job of leading and communicating when you just love it. Like, you love the topic. You love the practice of it.
Alex Judd:You love what you're doing. People find that, like, irresistible. And and when you watch this guy talk, it's like you're like, there is literally nowhere else on the planet he would rather be right now. He just loves it. And what you just find is like, oh my gosh, this room of 4,000 people is smiling.
Alex Judd:Like, everyone is smiling right now. And because he's loving this so much, everyone in the room is loving it so much. I just think that's so powerful. So I I would say John Maxwell for those reasons. Maybe if we could tag this and send this to him, that would be a great way to get him to come
Ben Loy:out of the podcast. So interest is a really great indicator. We've we've identified that. What are what are some other tools that you've identified as great ways to develop your voice and your style?
Alex Judd:Yeah. I mean, I would say the greatest tool is reps. You know? I what what we're not advocating for here is go off into a cave somewhere and have solitude time where you just sit and say, what's my style? What's my voice?
Alex Judd:I would say pay attention to who you're interested in. Watch them. Listen to them. And don't just listen to the message. Listen to the way they give the message, and then find reps where you're trying to feed that in.
Alex Judd:And that could literally be like, hey. We have people coming over for dinner. And at some point, I'm gonna tell this story, and I'm gonna tell this story really well. Do not give a speech at your dinner party is what I would say. But think about good storytelling and pay attention.
Alex Judd:I mean, it's wild. Like, we all know that person at a dinner party that it's like, this is a great story told really well. Mhmm. And we also know those people at the dinner party that's like, that was such a great story. It just wasn't told well.
Alex Judd:And then we also know the people at the dinner store at the dinner party that are like, that wasn't even a good story. Like, what and it's like, our goal is let's be the person that has a great story to share and we can tell it really well. That's what I say. But I just reps. Right?
Alex Judd:And and then reps plus evaluation, you're gonna find your style, I think.
Ben Loy:How how do you remain authentic while also learning from other speakers?
Alex Judd:You know, it's interesting. I feel as though this is something that I've thought about as it relates to to speaking for me, I actually got here kinda through a backdoor. I was thinking about the topic of freedom. And when we think about the topic of freedom, what's interesting is in my time talking to people about the topic of freedom, the times where they feel the most free are often the times where they also feel the most present. And I actually believe that.
Alex Judd:And pay attention to that. How that applies to the context of your talk is when were the times in the talk that you gave that you felt most present, that you just you weren't trying to adopt some other personality. You weren't trying to impress people. You know? You you weren't trying to accomplish some side motivation or objective.
Alex Judd:You were just there doing what you were doing. And and that's I I honestly think it's one of the reasons why stories capture people's attention is because oftentimes, a communicator is most present in storytelling. Mhmm. Because they're they're literally just recounting something they went through. Right?
Alex Judd:You know, the great thing about stories is you really don't have to remember anything because you were there. Right? And so it's just recalling the thing that you were actually there for. Yeah. But what's so cool is you can grow as a communicator to where the same level of presence you feel and experience in your storytelling, you can apply to your content.
Alex Judd:You can apply to the way you stare at data. You can even apply it to the way you tell stories that you weren't a part of, which is really cool because then, I mean, the world is your oyster in terms of possible content because it doesn't always have to be personal experience. You can authentically reiterate the experiences and learnings of others to make a point.
Ben Loy:It is an amazing feat. And I I honestly think that you do this well when sharing other people's stories. And most of the communicators I look at that I would say I look up to do the same thing. It's like they can share someone else's story but still take their audience and, like, bring them into that moment.
Alex Judd:Well, thank you for thank you for saying that. I think it's something that I've worked really hard at. And and what I would tell people is if that's something you wanna be able to do, put yourself in that position. Mhmm. I mean, it's honestly one of the greatest gifts, and it's why I just I I would love for everyone to experience this, particularly in a in a preaching capacity.
Alex Judd:Right? I don't I don't preach for a living by any means, but I have been asked, to teach messages at churches before, and I just love doing it because of the preparation process. If you're teaching a message on Peter, it's so fun to, like, be like, pretend like I'm Peter. And and Jesus is not saying this to someone else. He's saying this to me.
Alex Judd:If I'm Peter, what am I feeling? What am I thinking? What am I afraid of? What am I hoping for in this moment? It's a whole different way of looking at the bible.
Alex Judd:But if you do that back work, man, then when you teach the message on Peter, it's like you bring a whole level of contextual depth to it and emotion to it that that you can't bring if you're just saying, like, this this is what happened to some person somewhere.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I feel I feel like we're just gonna keep calling out pastors from redemption to
Alex Judd:be There you go.
Ben Loy:But, like, Jake Jake Slobotnik does this really well. Like, he he will take a passage, and he will even tell the audience or the congregation, be like, okay. Like, close your eyes. Imagine you are this person, like, in this culture at this time. I've heard him do that multiple times, and it it is extremely effective.
Ben Loy:Like, not only doing that yourself ahead of time, but even in the moment, like, is taking the audience and he is landing the plane to, like, connect them directly with the story that he's telling from scripture.
Alex Judd:It's so good. My my recall in this regard isn't isn't that good, but I'm I'm so glad you brought this up because I remember he did a message in the revelation series that we were going through. And and I'll never forget, he had this, like, underwater illustration, which this is crazy. This was months ago, and I can remember the way that he framed his message on revelation because of the illustration he used. That's the power of illustration and story.
Alex Judd:Right? I mean, this happened a very long time ago, and and I just remember, like, man, you could hear a pin drop in that room and the way that he wove it in and out. And it was a very complex topic. I mean, the book of Revelation in general is a very complex and and fraught with pitfalls topic as a communicator.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:But he attached it to something that he knew people could relate to, engage with, would find enjoyable. And I never I'll never forget, man, leaving that Sunday. And Aspen and I had a conversation on our takeaways from the points associated with revelation that he made, which unfortunately, can't remember as many of those right now. But then we also had an entirely separate conversation of how brilliantly communicated it was. And that's the gift that, you know, the hard work of preparing your communication gives to your audience is it can take all these really complex, challenging, maybe even emotional issues and present them in a way that people can actually metabolize them.
Ben Loy:This segues into the next point, which is, identify your intent. Like Mhmm. Telling stories is a really great vessel for connecting your audience with with your intention or or giving message.
Alex Judd:If that's your intent, I would say. Yeah. You know? Because, like, some people don't maybe you're presenting a message where it's like, what we need is the information, and you're telling me a story. It's, you know, I have known leaders that do this.
Alex Judd:It's like, it should have been an email is correct, but they, like and it was, like, basically just an update, but they felt this need to share a story associated with the update. It's like, the information you're trying to give me, which is what you're actually trying to accomplish here, that's your actual intent, didn't require a story. All you had to do was, like, say what you needed us to do. Right? Yeah.
Alex Judd:You know? And so that's why I think it's so crucial that we get clear about what we want to accomplish. And there's a great framework that Craig Groeschel has that that I I find really helpful because it simplifies is what do I want them to know, what I want them to feel, and what do I want them to do? Before you prepare a message, before you're about to communicate to a group, before you have a meeting, it's what do I want them to know, What do I want them to feel? What do I want them to do?
Alex Judd:And that's just a great way of listing your intent, and then you craft your message based on your intent.
Ben Loy:That's just a great model to keep you accountable to. Like, yeah, is is this story relevant? Or maybe the story is relevant, but maybe some of the details I have in the story don't need to be mentioned or I don't need to be, like, educating people on something while also trying to to share the story. Right? Like removing details to get to, okay, what what is the point of this story?
Ben Loy:What is the point of this illustration? And what do I want to communicate through the story to my audience? And, yeah, no feel do is a great way to keep yourself accountable to that.
Alex Judd:That's right. And and this is where it becomes like a puzzle. And, man, here here's one that I'm sharing as a practitioner that I'm certainly growing in this area, but I still have work to do. Andy Stanline takes me to task in this arena because if you ever hear him talk about effective communication, one of his first things that he will say very assertively is, you have to say within your time frame. Disrespectful.
Alex Judd:Like, if if if you've got thirty minutes and you and the audience are operating on this unwritten contract of thirty minutes, it is disrespectful to be like, I just wanna share I want to share this story so bad that I am gonna go over time. It's like you are literally making it about yourself at that point.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Right? And if you find yourself, which I I I can be very guilty of this, going over oftentimes, where where are you suffering? Sometimes it can be a pride thing where it's like, you think that, man, people have to hear this information so bad that they can't make good decisions with their time, you have to, and you're gonna keep them. Or it's an indictment on your preparation. Because if you can't get it in the time frame that you had, well, you had that time frame.
Alex Judd:Right? You you knew. I've got sixty minutes to do this talk, but you you were almost gluttonous with the content that you had. Right? You you weren't willing to edit in order to fit the prescribed timeline.
Alex Judd:And, man, it's it's difficult because you love this stuff, and you've spent time on this stuff, and you really want people to hear this stuff. But, heart of accomplishing your intent is doing it within the boundaries that you've been given or that you've even established for yourself.
Ben Loy:Mhmm. Something you mentioned recently was, like, the one point sermon.
Alex Judd:Mhmm.
Ben Loy:And I think that's probably a good question to ask is, like, maybe some of the points I'm trying to make here aren't don't don't even necessarily need to be in the same talk. Like, maybe I could maybe I could prepare a talk on the the other or the the whole other point I'm trying to make in this in this talk. Maybe if I just removed it and establish that as as its own topic so I can really focus on what my intention is in this moment. I feel like that could be a really helpful question to ask.
Alex Judd:That's exactly right. And that's why having multiple avenues to be able to communicate is really helpful. Right? I I can definitely be guilty of that if I'm not careful, and I've actually received feedback on this as a communicator is I'll go a couple times to churches in a couple different places around the country and and preach a message. And one of the pastors of the churches that I spoke at one time, he gave me some feedback on the back end because I asked for it.
Alex Judd:I was like, what feedback do you have? He said, Alex, it feels like you only have a couple times a year to preach a message because he's like, it's like you're trying to take take every spiritual truth that you've learned in the past year and pack it into thirty minutes. And he's like, he's like, I think it would be better if you just chose one of them and, like, taught on that one. And I was like, oh, man. That's that's so good.
Alex Judd:Right? And that definitely applies to motive and intent and all of that. But it's why, you know, I I'm very grateful and it's a real gift that we have the podcast format right now. We have our experience talks. We have our event talks that I'm teaching out.
Alex Judd:We have our growth rooms that I get to teach at. And what I often find myself doing now is, like, there's more that I wanna say, and I'll say, oh, that'd be a great podcast conversation or that'd be a great growth room or that could be our twenty twenty nine experience. Right? That we could do that theme. Right?
Alex Judd:But but what's so cool is the the minute you start communicating, you turn on a content water hose because you start to look at the world that way. And then, man, the issue will probably not be I don't have enough content. The issue will probably be I I don't have enough opportunities to share, which is cool.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Opportunity. And then I like that you have acknowledged there's a difference in the formats Yes. Of of those opportunities. Like, now, right, like, the way what you're sharing and the format in which you are sharing in a growth room is wildly different than how we're talking right now on the podcast That's or how you would give an experience talk.
Ben Loy:And I I guess as a as someone who wants to learn and develop as a communicator, seeing past like, oh, communication goes beyond just standing at the front of a room of any given number of people and sharing a message. Like, there's multiple formats on what that looks like and there's multiple areas and even methods in which it is appropriate to share specific things. Right?
Alex Judd:Yes. And I mean, that's something I can definitely grow in. Right? Sometimes I bring speaker Alex to the podcast, and it's like, why are you yelling at us? Am I gonna feed you?
Alex Judd:Right? And, so understanding the medium that you're operating in, I think I could actually grow in that area a lot. Can I say one more thing on intent that I think is really important? This is something that I learned years ago at a training for speakers that I just found really helpful. And it it probably if we're talking about what do you want them to know, what do you want them to feel, what do want them to do, this probably falls under the category of what you want them to know and how you orient and organize your message.
Alex Judd:It's helpful to think about your message as an answer to questions. And oftentimes now, which, yeah, I'm gonna give you give away my my, basically, my outline formula. I like to think about why questions versus how questions. These are decision oriented messages versus action oriented messages. A lot of times, I think why people's messages aren't clear is because they haven't defined is it why or how, and they're either answering a question that's that no one is asking Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Or they're they're mixing they're mixing content associated with why and how. So let's think about a really simple example here. If you are talking to a room of smokers that is like, I wanna click quit smoking. Tell me how. And you give a presentation that's five reasons why you should quit smoking, they're gonna be like, we are convinced.
Alex Judd:You don't like, we don't need five reasons. Right? We're good. Right? Conversely, if you've got the proven playbook for how to quit smoking that is bulletproof.
Alex Judd:Right? Like, you know, if someone walks these steps, but you're talking to a room of avid smokers that don't think they need to quit, you're giving them a how message and they haven't been convinced on why. And we do that a lot, especially as it relates to business and leadership. A lot of times what I often see is leaders, and this is something I've actually coached, some of our team on recently, is your communication was so good, but you answered the question how before you answered the question why. And, you know, if you're trying to get customers on board with something or if you're trying to get our team on board with something and you just go into how we're gonna do this, but they're not, like, literally jumping out of their seats saying, we should do this, then you're probably gonna have lethargic effort at best.
Alex Judd:And so understanding what's the question you're answering and orienting your message around that. Yeah.
Ben Loy:That's good. I'm, like, fighting the urge to take notes right now.
Alex Judd:I'll just
Ben Loy:have to go I'll just have to go back and listen to this podcast and take notes. Yeah. That's that's great. And I think it also when you can identify why it you establish in a in some way, you're establishing yourself as an authority figure. And if you don't if you haven't answered that and you come in and you're just like, this is how we're gonna do this, there's a certain level of of even trust of like, yeah, you haven't even you haven't led these people as a as a public speaker.
Ben Loy:Like, you're not leading. You're just presenting.
Alex Judd:And and we did this in this podcast. Right? This is like inception. It's the dream within the Right? So how did we start part one in this podcast?
Alex Judd:We said there's three principles that you need to understand about communication. There's a difference between talking and communicating. Communication is a kingpin skill, and communication is complex. What what are we doing right there? We're telling the audience, here's why everything you're about to listen to in these two episodes is so important.
Alex Judd:We're answering the question why with those three principles. And then now what are we smack dab in the middle of? Well, we're smack dab in the middle of how. Right? We gotta remember who it's for, understand the standards, find your voice and style, identify your intent.
Alex Judd:Now we're answering the question how. But if we don't first preface it with why, there's a pretty good chance there's people listening to this podcast that are like, well, I'm not a communicator. I don't I don't need to listen to this one. Yeah. Then they'll check out.
Ben Loy:Yep. Let's move on to the next one.
Alex Judd:Okay. So next one is really related to your manner and your message, actually. It's practice the way you plan to perform. So it can be helpful to think about your communication as a performance. Like that's your game day, right?
Alex Judd:And what do we want to do? We want to practice like we're going to perform at the game. So often what I see is people in their practice time, a lot of times people take communication very seriously, and so they do practice. But their practice is like them mumbling to themselves or them reading their outline or them, you know, just kind of casually talking through what they're going to say to maybe a friend or something like that. And I just don't think that's anywhere near as helpful as just doing it.
Alex Judd:Like, just run it. And it's awkward and that's okay. Let it be awkward. But right? Like, you know, I would say run it in the mirror, run it for your dog, run it for the empty chair, run it for your spouse, run it for your friends.
Alex Judd:Right? Because if you really care about the audience grasping the message, you have to focus on the manner you present the message. What I often see is that, man, a lot of people fail because the only time they worked on the manner with which they present is the presentation itself. And if manner is one of the single most important things to people absorbing what you're trying to share, why would you not practice that? I think we often overestimate how much we need good content, and we often underestimate how much we need a good manner, like, the way we present.
Ben Loy:Why is it or I guess why do you think it is that that's overlooked so much in public speaking specifically? Because I feel like if I picked any other activity, you just go, duh, like Yeah. Go do it and you're gonna get better at it, right? Yeah. And But for some reason, I feel like there is a certain level of, like you said, a lot of people a lot of people don't want to or are really uncomfortable with the idea of staring at a mirror or a wall and just practicing.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I mean, it feels incredibly vulnerable. Mhmm. Right? I mean, I I do this for a living.
Alex Judd:Right? Like, years ago, I said, man, for a living, I wanna communicate, teach, write, lead, and work with people and make a living doing it. And now I look up, and I'm like, praise god. I get to do that. Awesome.
Alex Judd:And I do this for a living today, and still the first time I'll talk Aspen through a message that I'm working on or about to give, I, like, I feel vulnerable. I don't feel nervous. I just feel vulnerable because it's like, these are genuine thoughts and stories that I have that I'm sharing for the first time with someone. And, like, it's kind of like a second grader when they come home from school and they had an art project, and they hold it up to their parent. They say, here, I made this.
Alex Judd:And it's like the way the parent responds at that moment. Like, that's what it feels like. Right? It's like, do you like what I made? And so that's why who we practice for is really, really important, and we wanna have people that build our confidence and help us improve and all of that.
Alex Judd:But, yeah, I think it's vulnerable. I think you feel exposed. But what I often find is that, man, if I'm willing to endure the level of vulnerability and exposure associated with practicing with people, then the the level of vulnerability and authenticity that I bring to the actual communication itself is just it's so much more real because it's so much more human because I've, like, emotionally wrestled with this stuff. And oftentimes, I mean, I I, you know, I I practice a lot of what I do for multiple different people, but Aspen is one of my go tos, and her perspective is just very different than mine, and, it's so helpful. Like, I have avoided some serious, serious mistakes by running running stuff through the Aspen filter first and then her being like, have you thought about how this type of person might hear that?
Alex Judd:And then being like, ruh roh, no. Like, and go back to the editing board. Yeah. So practice the way you perform.
Ben Loy:I mean, that really bridges the gap between all of the other points. What is it? It's three Cs and two Es. Yeah. And effective, right?
Ben Loy:That's right. Like, you're only going to know if you're being effective if you do it in front of people who can give you feedback on whether or not it's effective. And that's that's both, like, in the moment when you're actually giving the talk and in preparation. If you're not giving it to people and asking questions and and hearing from a human being who has perspective and and sits in a different seat than you do, you're you're taking a big risk on your effectiveness when they when push comes to shove.
Alex Judd:It's an I I think it's an exercise in humility. And I would say, you know, I've learned this a lot from the teaching team at the church that we go to is I know for a fact they have a rhythm where they have their communicators share what they're planning to share on a given Sunday with the teaching team Mhmm. To be critiqued and and for alternate perspectives to be offered. And it's like in the multitude of counsel, there is wisdom. Right?
Ben Loy:Yeah. Yep.
Alex Judd:Do I have time to share a quick story on how this played out recently?
Ben Loy:Yeah. Go for it.
Alex Judd:Okay. So this episode will air after our long game leadership experience in Austin coming up, and so I I feel good about sharing this story. I don't wanna let the cat out of the bag beforehand, so we gotta put a put put this clip in the vault until we do it. So long game leadership is the theme. I'm giving the opening talk on long game leadership, and I have spent a lot of time thinking about and praying about how I wanna open this experience.
Alex Judd:I haven't shared this with you, I don't think yet. And one of the things that I wanna sure I do is what I want them to know, well, what's our functional definition of long game leadership? And it's expanding your time horizon in service of others. So we're gonna start with that functional definition. And then I was like, what would be the best way to really kind of orient them not just around playing the long game, but around practicing long game?
Alex Judd:Because that's what I want us to do at this experience. And how do I jolt them into that mode? And in prayer, I kinda had this thought of, like, well, Stephen Covey says we should start with the end in mind. And what if we pair that quote with another quote that's a stoicism quote that says memento mori. And memento mori means remember that you will die.
Alex Judd:That's like the alternate version of of, of start with the end in mind. Right? And so with that, I'm like, well, why don't we spend most of the first lesson talking about our funeral? And let's look at three questions. Let's look at, when's it gonna be, who's gonna be there, and what are they gonna say.
Alex Judd:And when's it going to be? What I'm gonna tell people is like, no. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna predict your death. We're not doing witchcraft here. But but I am gonna reflect on the psalm that says, Lord, teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. Right? That God says, man, I don't just want you to count your days. I want you to make your days count. And and when we recognize the finitude of how limited our days are on this earth, how much time we get with, you know, the kids that are under our household, right?
Alex Judd:How much time we get with our parents? Like how much time do they have? How many more Christmases do we get? How many more Thanksgivings do we get? How many more books do I get to read?
Alex Judd:Right? Like all of this stuff, when we actually reflect on that, it changes not when we think about death, it changes the way we live is what I want to share with people. So so that was one of the exercises I I had planned, and I'm calling it a number your days exercise. And the way I had it in my original draft that I ran Aspen through was literally like a bullet point that said the average American male lives to be 75 and the average American female lives to be 82. How much time do you have left?
Alex Judd:That was the workbook. And Aspen just like looked at it and she was like, Alex, like, I know that you can think about this stuff very pragmatically, and I think, like, I think a lot of the people in the room will be able to do that. But she said death can still be a really hard topic for some people. And, like, I think this is gonna be, like I think it's really good, and I think it's necessary. But I think that, like, there might be some sensitivity in this room that you should really acknowledge.
Alex Judd:And I was like, oh my gosh. That would have been I mean, this is the opening talk for us spending three days together. Right? I I could have gotten off on a really bad foot with a certain portion of people that approached the topic of death emotionally different than I am. Yeah.
Alex Judd:Now that's where you have to think as a communicator. Okay. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna compromise the message, Cause I actually think the message is really important, but the way you communicate the message will impact people's ability to receive it. So that has all been reworked and I'm gonna give the Aspen iteration, not my first iteration at the experience next week. Yeah.
Ben Loy:Wow. A topic like that is just often there's either no there's a spectrum between no baggage to so much baggage that people carry. And I mean, someone who grew up, this is just hypothetical, like someone who grew up on a farm who sees life and death on a regular basis and sees it as a cycle of life is gonna process that much differently than than someone else, right, who who does hasn't had to think about that in their life, hasn't had to face the reality of that or or even, like, taking the time to to dwell on that topic.
Alex Judd:So I mean, and and it's why, you know, especially with emotionally fraught topics, it demands prayer to to be like, god, give me a heart to care for everyone in the room. Because I don't know. There could be an a person in the room next week that they flew to Austin from a funeral of someone they love. And it's like, if that's the case, like, man, I I I really like you know? And and so this goes back to interest as an indicator.
Alex Judd:If you wanna grow in what we're talking about right now, there there are pastors out there and and leaders too, but I would say the most accessible recordings we have are pastors that take on very difficult topics for a living. And they do it in a way that does not sacrifice the truth but is also not insensitive or demeaning or some superiority complex or over moralizing. And and it's just a really good exercise to go find someone that does that well and listen to them and be like, what were the what were the strategies and tactics behind how they do that? Because it's it's a incredibly intentional act. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And so one thing that I would tell people in this is the more sensitive the subject, the more intentional your preparation has to
Ben Loy:be. Mhmm. Mhmm. I think I feel like we've already brushed over this topic multiple times, but this goes into the next point, which is you're communicating with people not at people. Yeah.
Ben Loy:Right? That's exactly right. I think we've talked over the higher level idea of what that means. Let's jump into the the practical.
Alex Judd:When I was in high school, it was legitimately something I had to learn that, like, you know, it turns out that when I don't send every text message with all caps, people, like, actually respond to me. Right? And, like, I used to literally say in high school, I used to say live life on caps lock. Like, that was a phrase that I, like, held on to. Right?
Alex Judd:And and I've and then I one day I was like, well, I wonder what happens if I don't do that. And people, like, actually replied to my text messages. It was amazing, like, because they didn't think I was yelling at them. And what's crazy is one to one comparison to my speaking as well. If you were to look at my speaking from ten years ago compared to now, right?
Alex Judd:I was communicating from stages ten years ago. If you were to look at it then, it would have been me communicating on caps lock. And people would say, Man, that was a lot of energy and I just feel like I got lambasted by a fire hose. But they didn't really feel like they had space or ability to respond at all. Like, whether it's even non verbally, verbally, there was just it was no dialogue.
Alex Judd:It was me talking at them. Now I that is still my default that I have to intentionally work against. But when I'm at my best now, I'm not talking at people. I'm talking with them. And it changes my tone.
Alex Judd:It changes my complexion. It changes the way I make eye contact and connect with people. And so that's really what we're talking about is connect with people, not at them. And and the practice of it is what we just mentioned. It's your tone.
Alex Judd:It's your complexion. It's your volume. It's it's your nonverbals. I think nonverbals are very important as well.
Ben Loy:So six was communicate with people, not at people. And the last point is evaluate and improve.
Alex Judd:Yeah, that's right. So we've already mentioned this multiple times but if you're getting reps communicating then, man, number one, if you can get a recording, you're gonna you're gonna be your toughest critic, and I'm saying that actually is a good thing. Right? You should look back and watch your communication because what I'll often see is maybe this is a personality wiring thing but like you can kind of envision how it went and been like, that was awesome. That was just amazing.
Alex Judd:And like have this little picture or video in your head of how it went And then you watch the actual video and it's like very different than what you envisioned happening and you're like, Oh gosh, I've got some work to do. And so evaluating yourself, it can be really hard to watch recordings of yourself, but man, that's a great way to grow. It's game film is what that is. But then also evaluate and improve by, you know, talking to people that were there for what you did. And this can be formal evaluation like, hey, clear, confident, concise, energetic, effective, red, yellow, green, those five qualities.
Alex Judd:How did I do? Or one of the things that I like is like really informal evaluation, which is you talking to someone that might not even be part of your team or something like that, might not even be thinking about the subject of intentional communication at all. Maybe you just ask someone that was in your audience, just ask them, hey, what did I'd just be interested to know, what did you hear me say? And what's crazy is you know if you got a green, if you crush clarity, they'll be able to tell you, well, here's the main point. If if you're yellow or red on clarity, they might be like, you know, I don't know, but it was just so good.
Alex Judd:Like, well, it wasn't actually that good. It might have been energetic, but it wasn't good because, they should be able to rearticulate to you at least one of your main points or your overarching point or something like that. So even just talking to people, ask them, how how did it make you feel like this message? You know? And they can say, like, man, made me feel like I got a lot of work to do.
Alex Judd:It's like, well, was that your intent, or was your intent to inspire people? Because if they're leaving feeling ashamed that they haven't done enough, that's actually not what you wanted to accomplish. So thinking about what your intent was and asking really good questions to the people that heard you speak and then seeing, did I accomplish what I wanted to accomplish?
Ben Loy:What are, three questions you could ask someone, whether formally or informally, to to dive into that.
Alex Judd:I'll reiterate it. What did you hear me say? Mhmm. Like, that's that's a really good one because I I think I can't remember who first said this quote, but he said, the greatest illusion about communication is the idea that it's actually taken place. And it's like we think we communicate something.
Alex Judd:One way to confirm whether you communicate something is ask them, what did you hear me say? The second one we already mentioned is, what did that make you feel? And, you know, people will reveal a lot to you about your affect in terms of how it made them feel. And then ask them, hey. What do you wanna do out of this?
Alex Judd:Right? And and a lot of times, people will say, you know, I don't even know. I don't I I just thought it was good. You know? And it's like, man, that means we probably could have spent more time on the practical application portion of what we're talking about versus if they're like, man, I've got a list of three things that I really wanna get after.
Alex Judd:I wanna do it differently because of this communication. So so, again, what did you hear me say? How did it make you feel? And what are some what is something you wanna do different out of this time today?
Ben Loy:Well, I've had a lot of fun in this conversation. I mean, this is just something I'm I've, yeah, I've identified as, an area I want to grow, and I'm I feel very much like a student. So it's just fun to be able to then a pleasure to just be able to sit across from you and and ask you these questions and and dive into this. In closing, is there anything else that you want to share on this topic?
Alex Judd:I would say I've had fun as well, and so I'm I'm excited. We've got a lot of content on this topic, so hopefully, we can kinda weave this into maybe one of our future product or service offerings if people find this valuable. But the final thing I would say is just something we've already said in part one, which is communication is a skill, And that's awesome because that means you can grow. And so I would just challenge everyone, don't don't feel like you need to become a master communicator tomorrow. Just start communicating.
Alex Judd:Have some intent and then have a framework to to evaluate your communication. Maybe clear, confident, concise, energetic, effective. And don't be surprised just in doing those small things with intentionality that you start to grow as a communicator. Thanks, Hawks. Thanks, Ben.
Alex Judd:Well, there you have it. Thanks so much for joining us for this episode. If you want any of the information or resources that we mentioned, that's all in the show notes. Hey. Before you go, could I ask you for one quick favor?
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Alex Judd:Are you a leader that wants to grow your business in a healthy way, serve people exceptionally well, and glorify God in the process? Go to pathforgrowth.com to get more information about our community of impact driven leaders and schedule a call with our team. Hey, thank you so much to the Path for Growth team, Kyle Cummings and the crew at Pod Circle, and the remarkable leaders that are actively engaged in the Path for Growth community. Y'all are the people that make this possible. Y'all know this.
Alex Judd:We're rooting for you. We're praying for you. We wanna see you win. Remember, my strength is not for me. Your strength is not for you.
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