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The smart way to create a compassionate and professional lactation private practice, hosted by private practice IBCLCs Annie Frisbie and Leah Jolly.
Leah Jolly is a private practice IBCLC with Bay Area Breastfeeding in Houston, Texas.
Annie Frisbie is a private practice IBCLC serving Queens and Brooklyn in New York City and the creator of the Lactation Consultant Private Practice Toolkit.
Tune in each week to learn all the ins and outs of running a successful private practice lactation business!
Connect with Leah and Annie:
On Instagram: @lactationbusinesscoaching
On Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lactationbusinesscoaching
On YouTube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLv3-4pMgjlzbXD9KWFCIV3-1LipsTbgsj
Leah: Hey Annie.
Annie: Hi Leah. Ready to talk?
Leah: I am so excited about today's podcast. I feel like we're really going to reach those people who are just starting out and you can learn from our journey, like skip all the hard stuff and get to the good stuff is what I'm hoping that we'll get to help all these new LCs starting out.
Annie: I hope so. And we came up with this idea because some variation of this question gets asked of me and Leah, and I'm sure any of you that have done this for a while, you've been asked things that tie into this category. So we're going to be answering the question - what do you wish you knew when you first started out? But before we do that, Leah has a marketing moment.
Leah: Yeah. So today we're going to talk about Facebook again. I think it's just such a valuable platform and we want to use it as efficiently as possible. So I'm sure most of you know now that you can touch the three little dots on a post and you can save the post. If it has a link in it, it'll give you the option to save the link. But another layer to that is when you go to save the link, you can actually separate that into different folders. And what I do is I am scrolling through Facebook, I have a folder specifically for things that I eventually want to share again on Facebook, cause sometimes an article will make the rounds and everybody's posting it and it'll be really popular, but you could loop it back around a month or two later and it'll be really popular again, and you start it at that time. So what I do is I put that in my little folders, so just as I'm going and it's so, so fast and then I know it's all categorized so I don't have to scroll through everything I saved. Like every recipe I saw and every cute idea that somebody posted. It's just a folder just for that. So it has saved me so much time when I'm going back and I'm like, Oh I need to share something. Then I just have my whole list is already done and it's a great way to just get more content.
Annie: That's a great one because I save things in Facebook all the time and never go back to them. So if I had folders I would go back to them.
Leah: Yeah, cause they're more organized. So you're like, okay I'm looking for recipes for tonight's dinner. Okay well I have a whole folder for just recipes and then I have a whole folder for this kind of content stuff.
Annie: And I like how you're applying that to finding ideas about things to share on Facebook. And you might even find you saved something from a long time ago because you liked it and maybe it didn't really get shared widely. And you could say it doesn't have to be brand new to be worthy of sharing. So you might say, let me share this today or something that's never gets old. So that's a great one. So keeping track of stuff, I'm a fan of anything that gets you more organized. So let's talk about what do you wish you knew when you first got started and we've talked a lot about the business of being a lactation consultant and how important it is to be mindful about how you're structuring your business. But as far as what that actually looks like and we both feel like sometimes the best way to learn is by seeing what mistakes people made and where they got off on the wrong foot. So any business owner will have those stories. And so today we're hoping you can learn from some of the things that we did or didn't do in the beginning, and maybe even save you from making some of the mistakes that we made.
Leah: We're trying to save you from having to go down the bumpy path that we have all journeyed along. So I would say. Okay, so one of them when you were just saying like organization and learning and everything in the beginning, and this might be just because I was doing more just paper charting in the beginning. So I had everything paper and we had like a million handouts and trying to keep track of what handouts and what needed to be printed off, and what I didn't have and then I wouldn't have what I needed when I was there. So I love being paperless and being able to send my care plans with just attachments that I'm not having to figure out printing. And any other thing I'll say is a lot of families really appreciate this too. Cause I remember when I was doing lots of paper handouts and my families would get back to me and be like, Oh I know you left something to do with the bottle feeding but I can't find it. Can you send it to me again? And I'm like, okay, and then I'm having to do extra steps to resend the thing that I just left at their house and they're like, Oh, somebody threw it away or we can't find it or...
Annie: And on that, some of those paper handouts that you can buy have copyright on them that prohibits you from sending electronically. So some of them you might not have permission to scan it and email it to a client.
Leah: Yes. So that was totally the case because I have two or three, like I had a paced bottle feeding one handout that was like that. Like oh, I can't send it to you now or I have to find other resources. And so that was just always so complicated. So I'm so happy now and I actually, ... ironically is what I want to say ... I was cleaning out some folders and I found this giant folder that I had shoved in the bottom of my filing cabinet with just a thousand printed handouts. I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this is still shoved in the back of here. So it was liberating. I put it in the big recycle box and I was like, you are gone. Be free with the other pieces of paper that are being recycled because I was so happy to let that all go. So that's something that I can definitely say changed over the lifetime of my practice and really has helped me stay more organized and more efficient is to really utilize being more paperless with not just my charting but also my handouts and what I'm sharing with families and having it all be electronic now. It's really great. It is really worth taking the time and if you have to find a way to carve out three or four hours to just sit there and say how am I going to organize myself? Make yourself some folders. If you've got G-Suite, then you've got the Google drive and if you're in the US that need it to be HIPAA-compliant, the drive is HIPAA-compliant. So what folders do I want in there? Do I want one for handouts? Do I want one for letters? Do I want one for marketing? Do I want one for pediatrician reports? So kind of thinking through like what are the different buckets that I could put things in and make folders for them. Dropbox also has HIPAA-compliant option. You have to fill out a form and sign it and mail it into them or even fax it to them, but you can have Dropbox, be HIPAA-compliant too, if that's something that you need. I'm pretty organized digitally, so my computer, I know where everything is. Also don't be afraid to use the search feature when you're trying to ... I'm 80% organized, but I know I've got some things in the wrong spot. computer search features are really powerful for finding information quickly, but you have to know what's there. You have to at least know that it's in there. So my supplies is where I'm always like, I've got two gloves left. Oh my God, I didn't order them on time and so I wish my console bag was like one of those smart refrigerators so that when I go to open it, it's like, Annie, it's time to reorder gloves, or Annie, did you know you're running low on five French feeding tubes?
Leah: That would be so amazing.
Annie: If somebody invented it, I would certainly buy it.
Leah: Okay, I have a side question for you. What kind of wet gloves do you use?
Annie: I get the ones on Amazon. I get the purple ones. The nitrile ...
Leah: Yes, that's what I used too.
Annie: But recently somebody brought it up on a Facebook group about those gloves. The babies don't taste good. And I was like, oh my gosh, I think every baby I've had since I bought this new box has made a face during the oral exam, and I wonder if they changed something and they don't taste good to the babies.
Leah: Are yours dark purple or light purple?
Annie: They're like in between. I don't know.
Leah: So mine are really, really dark purple.
Annie: Oh, okay. I think they're wrong ones.
Leah: I don't even know the brand. I was just curious cause I went to a client's house. She was a nurse and she had this other box of gloves that were nitrile gloves and they were way cheaper, but they were blue and I definitely felt like those tasted terrible. They even kind of had a smell. I don't know. Ooh, I don't like those.
Annie: I've never had a problem with the purple ones, but this time I did, so I don't know.
Leah: I'm going to have to check my new box. I just got a new box too. So I totally agree with the inventory thing. And now that I have an assistant, we actually run an inventory list.
Annie: So smart.
Leah: And then I have more than one consultant, so it's not just me and so she'll check in. She'll be like, hey guys, can you give me your inventory list? And we just check off like I need this, I need this, and let her know I'm running low on this and that and then she orders it for us. So it's so awesome. But the list of what you're going to have in your bag and how much you want to have of those in your bag I think is really, really helpful. And then I have your glove situation. I carry a tote in my car because I can't carry everything in my bag. So I carry a tote in my car. I have an emergency hand pump, like a sterile pack, hand pump, because if I walk in and I don’t know, I just feel like Oh my gosh, there might be a chance that I would need an emergency hand pump,, so I have but I don't want to carry that in my bag cause it takes so much space. So anyway, I just have a stash and in there I have super cheap tiny box of my emergency gloves, because I have had that happen where I've rolled up in a consult and I'm like Oh my gosh, I have one set of gloves left or something. So, I at all times have my backup gloves just in case.
Annie: I do backup gloves too. When I refresh I buy two and one goes in my consult bag and the other one goes to my car, and the deal with it every time I deal with the trunk of my car and then once that one goes into my bag, theoretically that's the trigger to order two more boxes.
Leah: Theoretically, yes
Annie: I love the spreadsheet idea and there's so many different ways that you could share that and make it accessible by everyone. I really need to do something like that. I have to fit everything in one bag because if I'm parking, sometimes I have to walk 10 to 15 minutes from where I parked. I can't just like run down to my car. So I've really scaled down. I do keep a change of clothes in my car. I learned that the hard way ...
Leah: Been pooped on a few times.
Annie: I got pooped on by a twin and the reason we realized the twin pooped on me is because the other twin started laughing hysterically and I was like... this was an older baby. They were like five months old and I was like, this is hilarious and amazing. But I love that. The sister was like tee-hee. Ha ha ha! You just got pooped on.
Leah: That’s hilarious. I've been pooped on, peed on, puked on, pretty much all the “ons”. I've even been hosed with overactive letdown. Yup, been totally hosed down. So I definitely agree with the extra set of clothes in the car is super, super important. The bag, I think that's another thing I could say is that in the beginning - and I think we've might've mentioned this on the podcast before - like buy all the things and you just go crazy on Amazon. Like I'm going to need everything that's breastfeeding related or bottle-feeding related, and put it all in my bag and what you realize is that you really don't use that much. You're going to have like a handful of supplies, but my bag does not have that much in it anymore, whereas in the beginning I was carrying around so much stuff that literally I never touched. I thought I needed because I just like, Oh...
Annie: Does your bag get heavier every time you go to a consult? I mean, not a consult. I'll start that over.
Leah: To a conference?
Annie: Do you find your bag gets heavier every time you go to a conference? because it happens to me.
Leah: Yes. You're like, oh now I need to get this and this and this. But I really now have pared down my bag. I used to carry a small, literally luggage bag that had wheels cause I thought that would be super helpful, but the issue was I was carrying so much stuff that I was never ever getting to use. So that would be another "wish I had known" I didn't need to buy a billion things and carry that all around and I've even heard of lactation consultants carrying breastfeeding pillows and stuff with them. I couldn't imagine carrying that.
Annie: That would be unfeasible for me.
Leah: I couldn't imagine having all that.
Annie: I do carry a baby doll.
Leah: Yes, I do too.
Annie: And back when I had children who were potty training, I was carrying Chuck's Pads just cause I was buying them for home to put under their sheets in their beds. But I don't do that anymore either. I use what they have but I got a very tiny baby doll so it doesn't sound like here's my very preterm baby.
Leah: It fits in the bag.
Annie: It's better. The big baby doll I don't know, just walking around with the baby doll hanging out in my bag, it's just weird, or if it's in the front seat of my car.
Leah: I know. I always say that somebody's going to break the window and be like, you're a doll. I do have one that I use for my teaching classes. One time my mom got in the car and an arm and a leg were hanging out and she was Leah, you cannot do that even though I know you don't have a baby. She's like, that is so traumatizing. You have to put that baby where we can't see it. It was so funny cause I didn't realize. I just know it's a baby doll but she was like Whoa, that's too well.
Annie: It's like that moment. I've had this recently where the client had a high chair and she had a teeny baby but she had a high chair. She had a baby doll in the high chair and she had it. Every time I went to see her - I saw her four times - and every time I did this double-take. I'm like, why is this five-week-old in a highchair? It was just a baby doll. It's an interesting decor choice that really freaked out the lactation consultant. So another thing I wish I knew when I was first starting out was where I should most effectively market myself. And part of it just was I was a little scared to market myself because I was new, but also where is the best place to find people. And my husband, he's also a small business owner and he said something to me very early on where he was like, I know your problem. Your problem is that it's all new business and for the most part that's true. Oh my gosh. It is like a gift from the world when somebody says, I want to have you come back, I'm having my second baby. And they actually call you and you get to go and see them again and you hopefully get to see the first baby is like a cute toddler now. Those are the best visits, but that's like a handful, and most of them are people that have to find me cold and people that sometimes don't even know that they need a lactation consultant. And so I feel like the mistake I made was by starting out marketing myself on parenting groups that I was in myself from having my own kids. So I already, I had an in that if you don't have children then you're not part of those parenting groups, and some of them won't let you in. They'll ask you questions like, do you actually have children and they won't let me in, or they don't want anybody in doing marketing. So they're like, don't tell us about your businesses. So there could be some kind of really weird rules with those parenting groups. You also open yourself up in the parenting groups to getting people asking you for free help or the mini consult that it's a bad idea. So when he told me that about it's all new business and how hard I was working for so little reward, I was like, let me rethink. How can I get to this new business? How can I warm this market up a little bit? And so I started marketing, I sent a bunch of letters to pediatricians and I also really thought about my pediatrician report as a marketing tool. And so in the early days I was spending way more time on my pediatrician report than I am now because I really wanted to impress these pediatricians with look how much I know and look how much I'm doing and all of that. So those are some things I kind of learned in my first year or two of private practice is the best way to market myself. I mean, I know you're the marketing expert.
Leah: I had a different approach just because of my background. I had done medical sales in the past and just literally would go door to door to physician's offices and what I would call "beat the streets". I would just pull them all up and go to every single one. Maybe if you would click, but that was something that I did early on is that I really made a lot of face-to-face contact with everybody in the community, from pediatricians to doulas to midwives to literally anyone. I even do still to this day, I do a little class, literally 15 to 30 minutes, like what's the top thing you need to know, like for a mom fitness group. And I mean I saturated every avenue that you could possibly hear about. They would have pregnant moms. There are new moms there. I tried to get in front of, really face-to-face because I felt like it just so solidifies you're a real person and you're out there. So I would highly recommend anybody starting out to take the leap. It's so hard to do. I know, cause it's really intimidating but to go and get in front of people face to face, I feel like that was really impactful on my journey as a business woman.
Annie: That's a good one because I think it's going to be scary. Maybe the first couple of times you do it, especially if you're not really a natural marketer or not somebody who wants to do it, but you can kind of just set yourself up and say, the first time I do this, it's probably going to be horrible, but that's fine because just like if you're trying to learn how to ice skate, you learn by falling down. You're going to learn by doing it wrong and or doing it not the way you would want to do it in the future, and just keep changing what you're doing based on how the last one went. Do it a little different next time.
Leah: The other thing that helped me, because this is one of the things that I learned in my sales training was that it's more of a numbers game than every single one of them is going to go perfectly right. Every single one of them will not go right. You just have to get enough of them, and then there will be a ratio of ones that go right and ones that go wrong , or not go wrong but you just don't get the feedback that you hope, or you don't want the referrals that you hoped for. So it's more of a numbers game. So just push yourself to get the volume of reaching out to more and more people in your community versus every single one of these has to go perfect. And if I do three of them and they're all not great, but if you do six of them and two of them are great, you know what I mean? So there's really this numbers game to it and that can kind of take the pressure off. So I think marketing, we've talked about this before too, but buying tens and tens of marketing materials, like I'm going to get all the pamphlets and the handouts and the fancy tri-folds and all this stuff that sometimes the paper stuff just doesn't pay out as much as you had hoped it was. It looks beautiful. They usually are lovely and they fund to design and look at, but I have found them to not be, so we've really cut back on our paper stuff.
Annie: And also, you know, even if you felt like you didn't have the most, you weren't like the zazziest version of yourself when you saw that pediatrician and you feel like, Oh, I really was tripping over my own words and didn't represent myself. You're going to back that up. Hopefully that's not the last chance you have with those people. You can do things like send a regular newsletter, write some things up for pediatricians about like, here's some new research on breastfeeding. Have you seen this yet? And that can be a great thing to send out just like every other month or four times a year or twice a year, just to put yourself in front of people. My husband, he sends two emails a year. So he does lighting rental and lighting work for film and television. So twice a year he sends one email to everyone, all the producers and DPs and everybody he works with just to say, I've updated my gear list. Here's where it is. He's got a very different, they're expecting good things from him but he's like, twice a year, I'm going to just put myself top of mind to you again in this way. And so just because you walked in the door and they rolled their eyes at you, or put their cards in a drawer and you haven't heard from them since you walked in, what it does not mean is that they were like, Oh, Annie Frisbee, lactation consultant. I'm never going to call her. They forgot about you, so remind them of you.
Leah: I think if I did actually speak to anybody other than just the receptionist, which is like a lot of times it's just the case. You're going to just speak to the receptionist and hand them stuff to take back to the doctor. But whenever I got in front of somebody from the office, I always sent a thank you note, a handwritten thank you note that was just like thank you so much for taking the time and I really appreciate it and I look forward to collaborating with you in the future, and so that was always a really powerful marketing tip as well.
Annie: That's great.
Leah: I know one of the other things that I was glad that I had done, and I'm now glad that I do even more, was to really connect with other lactation consultants, and not just from my area, but ones that have expertise in different areas. I mean, I can say we're all happy to help and support the next person. And I wish that I had maybe more confidence calling or asking for mentors - not mentorship officially, but like, hey, I'm dealing with this really challenging case. Would you talk it through with me? Sometimes as a new LC, that's really intimidating to call somebody who maybe you look up to and you're like, they're not going to want to take the time to talk to me. But what I have found over the years, I've done more and more of that and one, I've learned so much and two, they're usually so happy and willing to help and it's such a great way to grow your knowledge base is by hearing what other approaches would be or other ideas, that kind of thing.
Annie: Yeah, I agree with that 100% and I used to think in the beginning, well first because I was new, but then even as I got more experience, people would ask, will you be my mentor? I'm trying to become a lactation consultant through Pathway 3 and I need a mentor and I was like I can't do that cause honestly - teaching, it's not the thing that brings me joy. I think there are people that are way better at it than me and it's also just because of my schedule and the thin margins I have because I'm homeschooling my kids. What I don't have time for is let's have regular meetings to go over your learning objectives. I can't do that and I can't charge you enough. What I would need to charge you for my time is not what I think any student lactation consultants should be paying for mentorship, and that only has to do with my schedule and how I can't. I have these family obligations that prevent me from being able to give all the time that I think a Pathway 3 mentor needs to give. Then I had somebody reach out and say, I am a lactation consultant but I've only worked in the hospital. Can I follow you and watch you do a home visit and see how you do it. And I'm like, yes, sure. That works. You're just going to come. You're just going to observe, and we can talk about it afterwards but I'm not responsible for learning objectives. I also don't have to give you a chance to do hands on work. you're just watching it, and I had that happen. That was great and we had an amazing vibe with this client there. The IBCLC came with me for four visits and it was so nice having her there that the client is now going to become a lactation consultant, an IBCLC.
Leah: Oh my God. That's so awesome.
Annie: That was super cool. I mean, I think she could have done it whether or not, but I bet seeing two of us kind of brought her to that point of like, this is cool. And it's nice when I have the hospital ones come because I have never worked in a hospital and I have two children who were both born at home. So I've also never personally experienced hospital birth, so everything I know about it is what I hear. . But I've learned what my clients have told me, but I also know I bring a tremendous bias which is tempered by the fact that I have made connections with hospital lactation consultants who have really changed my perspective on what happens in the hospital for the good. So now I have every benefit of the doubt when somebody tells me the hospital lactation consultant was like this, I'm like, what she heard and what was actually said are two different things and now I understand why. I was like, why don't they all teach laid back in the hospital and then I had breakfast with some of my colleagues who work in the hospital and she's like, because the babies are drugged and can't move., Laid back is too comfortable for these babies. I was like, oh, I never thought about that cause I've never seen a day one baby, except for my own.
Leah: And so that kind of elaboration, that's something that I just think is so, so valuable if you're starting out collaborating with other LCs, collaborating like you've done with hospital LCs, if you don't have experience in that, I think those things can be so powerful in shaping your practice and your knowledge base and these biases that we all come into this with, it helps us see the other side of things. Is there anything else, Annie that you can think of that you're like, Oh, I wish I knew this early on?
Annie: I guess I would say one last thing that I wish I had known when I first started out, which is something I did do when I first started out, but I think I did it because I like it and not really realizing how glad I would be that I did it. So I just did all the conferences and then I kept doing them even after I had my 75 SERPs to recertify, just because I personally like conferences and now that I've been doing this for I'm past my recertification, I've gotten hooked on conferences. So even though unless IBCLC changes their rules, I'm going to have to recertify by exam in 2021, I'm still going to the conferences. I'm still watching gold. I'm still watching. And so I'm really glad I got myself basically hooked on conferences starting in year one of my private practice, because it's just always good.
Leah: And I would say if you're planning to go into private practice, you need to have a plan for your ongoing training. I mean, of course we have to get it through SERPs, but there's just another level of that. if you're in the hospital, oftentimes they're providing a lot of training, a lot of structure, but you have to provide that on your own and you have to take the time to make that happen because you can really stagnate in your skills and in your knowledge base, cause the field of lactation is growing and we're learning more and it's always changing. And if you want to be well-respected and sought after, you really have to make a commitment almost creating your own ongoing curriculum of how you're going to up your skills over and over and over, because it's always changing.
Annie: It's always changing and it does cost money, so you're going to need to have a budget and understand that that is a business expense. I would also say on the specific point, if you see any opportunity to get training on being inclusive or on diversity or on cultural obstacles, either to people meeting their breastfeeding goals or to people becoming lactation consultants at any price, pay the money for that or pay for that class or pay for that in-person workshop, or bring someone yourself because that is a place where big changes are happening for the better, but it's not anything that is going to be part of your curriculum to pass the exam in a meaningful way that actually is going to affect your practice and how you talk with people.
Leah: Yeah, definitely. I totally agree with that. Awesome. Well, as we wrap up with all this great information, I know that you also have a tech tip for us today Annie. What you got?
Annie: I do. I have a tech tip, which is about the consent for care. So I hope that you're all having a consent for care written by an attorney or purchasing some of the ones that are for sale out on the market where you can buy a consent for care that's just for lactation. What I realized very quickly was that I was really hard to get people to sign it before I got there and then I realized just started being like, I just really want this before I even walk in the door because I don't know, I started to learn there's going to be times where the baby is crying and I don't want to have to have them sign a consent form while their baby's crying hungry. I really want it in advance. So I rethought about not using my platform to get the consent, but rather using the online scheduler that I'm using to get the consent in advance. And so I've changed my policy so that I do not go to anyone's house without a consent for care signed. So the tech tip is if you're using Acuity, you can put your consent for care in as an intake, but you're not going to choose intake question. You're going to choose, it'll say new terms and conditions and you click that and you paste your consent in there and then they get to check the box that they've signed it, and in the US if you need to be HIPAA-compliant, as long as you're using the power house player level, that's going to be HIPAA-compliant. You're going to have an audit trail, a record that they're the person who signed it, and then you're free to go to that visit. I'm sure that there are other HIPAA-compliant schedulers who will offer similar features. Acuity is the one that I'm personally comfortable with, but you can even do it through, if you have a G-Suite form, you could get it that way. Set it up as a form that they need to sign through your HIPAA-compliant G-Suite and have them just sign that when you say, okay great, I'm coming Tuesday at 10, I'm going to send you an email with a link. Click that link to sign my consent in advance and you can make it really simple. The consent could just be that one question. I just want you to sign that you're okay with me coming in. You're okay with the things that are going to happen in the visit and then whatever else, at least you have that. I would also recommend adding like peanut policies to that too. It's never a bad idea to ask them to sign those right before you do anything with them, but the main one is the consent for care. So that's my tech tip.
Leah: Awesome. Thank you so much for that great information. I was taking down notes as you were saying it. I think that's a great, great way to ensure that those things are all being covered each time we go and visit a family, so thank you so much for that. Well, this has been an awesome talk, Annie and I look forward to our next chat together.
Annie: I do too, and I hope you have a great week with consults. Do you have anything you're looking forward to this week?
Leah: No, just a busy week. We just are filled up. I think January can sometimes be slow for us, but this year we're staying pretty steady, so, I definitely think that it's going to be a busy week. How about you?
Annie: I have a busy week too and it's the same. We're recording this episode in January and I'm used to a slow down and I have babies coming out of my ears. I don't really know what's going on and I'm not the only one. I know from our WhatsApp group for the other New York city lactation consultants. So I've got some fun follow ups this week and people I'm looking forward to going back and seeing again. One of my clients this week is someone who I saw with their first baby and I get to see them again and she and I just had a great rapport. I think my visits this week, I have only one initial, the rest are follow-ups.
Leah: I kinda like that.
Annie: Yeah. Yeah. So it'll be good. So just send me good vibes for finding parking at all of my various consults.
Leah: I definitely will.
Annie: Picture me eating salad in my car because I think that's what my Tuesday will be like.
Leah: Yes. Oh man. I know that feeling. I know that feeling. Well, it's been great talking to you. I hope you have a great week and look forward to talking to you again soon.
Annie: Till the next time. Bye.
Leah: Bye.